Hi, everyone, I'm Kitty Kirk, and this is next question. I am super psyched you guys, because my guest today is the creator of the show everyone is talking about The White Lotus. I'm obsessed. In its second season, the series follows a group of wealthy vacationers and the people who work at a stunning seaside resort in Sicily. Welcome to the White Lotus. I am Valentina, the roysorts manager. How is it both right? It was? I mean, I'm impressed that you're even here. Why are you impressed? It's a long trip from Los Angeles and you're quite old. No, anyway, Isabella here, we'll take you up to the account and bring you to your your beautiful groom and after you a glass of prof thank you. Before the luxe world of The White Lotus, Mike White spent much of his time on The Proof Are creating characters who were two loners, weirdos, and wanderers in movies like Chuck and Buck, The Year of the Dog with Molly Shannon, The Good Girl with Jennifer Anniston, and School of Rock with Jack Black, popular movies in their own right, but nothing like The Mean producing headline driving conspiracy filled chatter surrounding the White lotus. It seems like it's a new, slightly uncomfortable position for Mike to be in. I see myself as an underdog and I and I'm always like that, Like I'm always going to see myself as like somebody who has to prove something. So like, even in success, I still feel like I don't know, Yeah, I'm not. I don't feel like an impostor, but I feel like I'm I don't know, like you know, I slipped in through the side door or something. Today we dive into all of it, the making of the show, the anatomy of those crazy characters, Mike's childhood, and how he really feels about his newfound fame. So let me just first start by asking what does it feel like to be Mike White these days? Well? What a question? I uh, you know. I we honestly just finished the final episode. We had a very crazy shooting schedule that because of COVID and because of weather and Italy and a lot of different reasons, we went over our shoot and so I thought HBO would give us a little break and let us air later than what we were expecting, And instead they were like we need it when we need it, and so it cut into our post. So I was editing and finishing the show up until like ten days ago. So I've just been like, I'm I'm living in Hawaii right now for tax reasons. There's a good incentive for them to do the post here, which is great. But I soa I've been kind of in a bubble. I'm just been finishing the show, uh, living on an island, and so yeah, it's I don't know, I don't I don't know what it's like to but it, but it doesn't I'm not getting It's not like I'm it's not like I'm walking around l A and like getting a high five from people or anything like that. So it's it's it, but I'm but I'm excited that it's sentence that that people are watching the show and liking it, and I'm definitely getting that. But it's but it's just pretty I'm still kind of living on an island and living in a bubble. Well. Having said that, though, Mike, let's get real. I mean you are sort of the envy of everyone in Hollywood, and this is something that you've talked about kind of willingly in an article you did in in Vulture. You talked about Hollywood, Who's up, Who's down, kind of how people are all envious of one another and that you're uber competitive. So have you been have you said all that, Mike, have you been able to take a moment and it's kind of say the bomb? Oh my god, No, no that's not me, but but yes, I I am. I'm you know, it's honestly, Katie, I feel like i'm you know, I'm fifty two years old, and I've been doing this since I was twenty two years old, and so and I've had, you know, a lot of things made, and a lot of things that I thought were successful, but not at this yeah, with this kind of reaction. And so I just sort of feel like to use the like, since I'm in Hawaii, like an analogy that fits here, which is like I feel like I'm a surfer who's been out in the ocean for a long time and like I caught a wave. I don't know why this wave, but like you know, obviously I I'm old enough and have had a long enough career to see it as yeah, a blessing and but also something that you can't you know, I I would never try to chase this reaction because I just it's just it's just you just never know what's gonna yeah, what people are gonna respond to. So I'm excited. I'll take your word for it that that's that. It's it's that, Yeah, I don't know. I'm obviously I'm happy. It's like I mean, I I was like at the age where I was just like can I keep doing? You know, like it was like maybe the old Gray Mary what she used to be, And I'm gonna like so like it's nice to have a little like uh, it's it's it's definitely fun. I'm very excited, but I don't know whatever. Well, let's talk about the genesis of White lotus um. I was at a party and I heard from a couple of Hollywood types that HBO had access to a hotel that was empty in Maui during COVID and came to you and said, hey, Mike White, can you write a show that takes place in a hotel? Is that how it started? It? Kind of? It definitely was like they need they had a lot of projects that had fallen apart because of COVID, and so they just they knew why I was kind of fast and that like I was good with dialogue, and that like maybe a show that was very that I could write a show in a bubble that was like that would maybe be immune from some of the COVID uh issues that they had come upon. And so so they asked me to do it, like can you come up with a bubble show? But they didn't have a I was like, it was my idea to do it in a hotel. And I I was like, and I'm you know, I have a place in Kuaie and I'm like, and I knew that there were all these hotels that were just yeah defunct and they were just head shut down because of COVID, And I was like, we could grab one of those hotels in bed in Hawaii. But they didn't even really want us to go to Hawaii because that was already to um treacherous potential issues with COVID. They wanted us like they probably would have been having even found like a hotel and like Lancaster, like you know across the street from Casey Boys's house or something, right, So like so yeah, I just um uh, so yeah, I had to push for Hawaii. But yeah, it was kind of a mix a mix of that, and tell me a little bit about how you were inspired to write really both seasons, but let's start with the first. I mean, when you sit down to write this, Mike, what were you trying to accomplish? I know that's kind of a big broad question, but I'm just curious. You've got a blank screen, a blank computer screen, and you decide I want to show class differences. I wanted to show really interesting characters. I think one of the things, I one of many things I love about this show is it feels very current. You know, sometimes things get made and they come out a couple of years later or even a year later, and they don't feel oh karent or of the moment. And I think White Load has felt so tuned into current sensibilities. So just talk to me a little bit about your thought process when you put a finger to keyboard. Are you talking about like the like the first season? Yeah, sure, and we'll talk about the second. Yeah. The first season it was I I you know, I've spent a lot of time in Hawaii, so you know, some of and a lot of the in Hawaii, there's definitely like two classes. There's the you know, the tourists and the moneyed people who come and like you know, have their vacations here. And then there's the service class of people who you know, can be at any you know, some of them are do very well financially, but they're all servicing these tourists, and so you you know, if you hear long enough, you get like this. You know, the I obviously know the tourist side of it because I've been there, and I you know, it's like and a lot of my friends who visit, you know, so I get that part of it, but they also you know, the service side of it. And I just felt like, you know, there's something about doing you know, because obviously Hotel or like Fantasy Island, you think Love Vote, Like there's like there's like a history of these kind of shows in this kind of you know, trying to genre exactly, but to do something that is a little bit more well observed, and that kind of gets it. You know. I just thought it was like an interesting about how money, who has the money impacts relationships both obviously from the server and the you know, customer, but also you know, the husband and the wife and the father and the child and and and so it just felt like maybe as a theme that seemed rich, and so that was kind of initial impulse because I was like, we're gonna be in a hotel. You know, nobody can leave. It's kind of has to be a crucible everyone, you know, And so yeah, it kind of built out from there. And then it was just like years of maybe years of too much being online and like Twitter speak and like it was just like I was like, like I would just started freestyling as far as just like trying to get at some of the I don't know the kind of contemporary language and stuff like that. It seems to me you're almost like a an anthropologist kind of discovering and exposing human behavior. And I when I watch I wonder how much of this did Mike learn from being on reality shows how people act? Because obviously you were in Survivor. On Survivor, I understand you're a good friend of Jeff Probes. Do you love reality television? You were on the Amazing Race with your dad. So did some of those experience help inform your writing for White Lotus? Am I getting too weird on these questions? No? Not at all. I I mean I actually what I loved when I when I you know, because I was obviously a writer before the big reality boom, which I think started like in two thousand ish. Um. And then uh but like you know, you show like Survivor came along and you were like, wow, it was showing people, you know, one minute they would be very irritating or very petty, and then the next minute they would be very um, vulnerable and your heart goes out to them, and then they could be courageous, and I don't know, it was just like you would see these these I mean because they were people. It was like fully dimensional humans. And even though maybe the format could be formula, uh, there was something I just as a writer, I was like, this is this is you know, this this makes you want to raise your game as far as like when you are creating characters that people are watching, because it felt like they were always surprising and you were you know, you just you There wasn't some internal integrity obviously, but there was also all of these colors and so it I've always wanted to try to write characters that could match, you know, some of the great you know, personalities that you see in reality TV. So yeah, I do think that's a that's a part of it. And I just think when I was very young, starting very early, I was I was always um, you know, I had Sam Shepherd's mother was my second grade teacher, and she loved her son and I loved her, and so it was the first time that I realized, oh, people were play rights. So very early on I was writing little plays and so, like, I've always listened, and I've always been interested in how people talk, because I've always thought about things in terms of dialogue, and then also how what they say about themselves doesn't always necessarily match what they think and doesn't always match what they are going to do, and so that's always been interesting to me, and so I've always been kind of an observer of of that. I guess I think your childhood, though, in addition to being taught by Sam Shepherd's mother in second grade, which is a cool little fact at Trivia fact Um, you grew up in an evangelical household in Pasadena, and yet you were always skeptical about religion. What was your childhood like, Mike, Well, my parents were very loving and I loved. I had a very nurturing, positive, um nuclear family. My dad was a minister, and we were part of a bigger, kind of more evangelical religious community, and it was there that community where it was death really felt. I always felt a little alien. I never really drunk the kool aid, as they say, and I I always yeah, it was there where you I think that I, you know, some of the you know, part of drama is is yeah, getting past then, you know, the facade and trying to see what people really do and what people really are like, but beyond what they say they do. And I think there's a lot of hypocrisy and a lot of those smaller evangelical communities about you know, certainly around sex and around how people you know, think about you know, what the motivations for behavior are and stuff, and so I I have so it always I always felt like I was like I always wanted to know. I was like, what's the what's the real you know, like I've always been like, yeah, interested in like what really how what people do and how that that's sometimes not really in line with how they present themselves. I think that shows up in a lot of your work, Mike. I was rewatching Brad's status, and I think that was very effective in terms of this inner turmoil brad a k ah Ben Stiller is experiencing, comparing him his station in life to all of his college friends who were doing much better. And I think that external internal conflict is something it seems to me that you you go back to. And I read that when you were eleven, your dad came out to your family. He was a minister, as you mentioned, but also a gross writer for people like Jerry Fallwell and Tammy Baker, and you once said finding out about your dad's sexuality is quote the key to everything I write. How so well just in the sense of what I was just talking about, which is, you know, uh, it's a big run to be pulled from under you where you know, you've think your family is this thing, and your dad is this thing, and he's a minister, and then you realize there's this other, whole other side, which isn't necessarily a dark side, it's just a truth. And the truth is in contradiction to what he's supposed to be in the world. And and so I think, you know, exploring that and and and and I think that that, yeah, that just just to me, it just you know, obviously it hit home in a literal way, just that you know, we are more complicated than we present ourselves, and that we put are certain face to our community, and that that maybe in drama and showing some of that. Obviously there's a titillation part of it, but then there's like maybe some kind of solace to know that, like everybody is grappling with this, like that the person that we want to be and the person that the world wants us to be, we're not always that and that's okay and that's human and and that kind of thing. You went to Wesleyan, I know, and you said you finally found your people there. So how did Wesleyan affect you, not only as a person but as a writer. Well, I I was in a kind of more homogeneous community growing up in high school, you know, and grade school, and so going to Wesleyan, you know, it was a very open minded liberal community in general, and also just these kids were so sophisticated. It was like I was just like I just felt like I was like like behind the curve, you know. I was kind of a self taught. I mean, I was just I mean I went to a good school, but it was like as far as culture and stuff, I was just I was, you know, I like, I had my own like subscription to the New Yorker for I was, I was just trying to find my way through the culture. And so, like I would, I went to Wesley and all these you know, a lot of I mean, it was a lot of New York Jewish kids who are like very like fully baked and fully like you know, you know, like new fancy people. And I was just like I kind of was just I felt like a rube. But I got but I was so enamored by the yeah, the whole vibe there and and still to this day, a lot of those kids I met there are are my my friend group. And when you when you graduated from Wesleyan, were you really interested in play writing or just writing in general? Well, I wanted to be a playwright. I wanted to be Sam Shepherd. I went from California to Yeah, to Wesley and and I was like I didn't have socks and I didn't realize how cold it was back East. I was like, this is too cold for me. Like I so I was like, I was like, my plan was to go to New York was starting playwright. But I was like, I don't know if I could handle this weather, I was like, so, I like kind of I fell into the wrong crowd and came back to l A I was started writing for for movies and TV. After the break, Let's go to Sicily Bowie. When you look back at your quote unquote body of work like White, do you notice any kind of thread that connects a lot of these stories when you think about it, Um, I don't know, me I have a thread, I don't know, and they're I mean, it's an idiosyncratic body of work and I and I'm proud. I like I one thing that I always was like, I'm not going to take myself so seriously that I miss out on anything like and That's how That's why I did Survivor. That's why I did amazing Race. It's why I've taken jobs that I don't know. It's like, you know, like I always thought that I I mean, if now now I do sound like whatever, I just you know, it's like I always thought I was talented. I always felt like I had some in the offer. I always felt like I was, you know, like I like you said I was. You know, I've said I'm competitive, like I would see peers who like, you know, caught the wave and got a lot of like attention and success, and I was like, I could do that. I'm better, I'm I'm as good or better than those people. And and you know, of course that's the that's the that's the gumption that you need to get through Hollywood by like and so um so. But at the same time, I was just like, I'm not gonna be I met people early on who had careers that I admired, and a lot of them seem miserable or they seem like they were really um in a um you know, protective of their you know, like they I don't know, they that in order to be serious taken seriously, they had to kind of have a serious vibe. And it's like we're in the we're in the we're in the you know. I I think our work is meaningful, but like we are in the in the sort of we're in the kids section in a sense, know what I mean. We're not we're not you know, we're not hearing cancer. Yeah, we're not hearing cancer or not in the policy we're not policy wants. We're not It's like we are you know, we're in the we're in the entertainment section, you know what I mean. So it's like and so I just was like, I just don't I want to. I want to be successful and I want people to think I'm talented, but I also I want to I want to live a life that I look back on and the life itself was cool and then and the things I did were cool, and it's not just my work. So so like I look at those all those different things and that it's like it's it's an eclectic it's like it's kind of a hot mess, like a bunch of credits, but I each one of them. I like I got different things out of and and and yeah, I had served different purposes for me. But right now you are in a very different position, like because I'm sure everyone in Hollywood is saying that Mike White he can write his own ticket. Now he can kind of do whatever he wants, which I think makes you a little uncomfortable. Well, I don't know. I feel like this is like it's like I'm waking up in Hawaiians like Haiti Kurt is here to tell you everything has changed. Everything is I feel like your therapist, Like no, well, I I appreciate you saying that, and I and I, you know, I actually feel like I if that's true. I feel like I feel like I'm like somebody who's been ready to be at bat for a long time. And I've done it, you know, like you know, and I've I've done things. I'm proud of it. But like I've it's always been swimming upstream to get the financing, to get the actor, to get the thing to the you know, like it's it's and that's part of the fun, I guess, but it's also part it's there's wear and tear. So it's like, if it's an easier road to do the things I want to do, I'm ready to do more and I have more to say, and I, you know, like and it's and and this was hard. It took a lot out of me, especially this last season. But this is what I've always wanted to do and and and and so I'm grateful that I have the opportunity to do it. Are you having fun, Mike? I am having fun. I'm having fun talking to you. I'm hearing why I'm you know, I've gotten through the season and everyone's you know, chatting up, so that's fun. But I also I need to reboot a little bit. I don't have a lot of gas in the tank, so I need to figure out how to whatever unplug and refresh or something. Let's talk about this current season of White Lotus, because I'm worried, Mike, I'm worried about the characters. I'm White. I'm really worried. I'm I'm really worried. I'm worried about Porscha. I'm really worried about Tanya. I'm worried about is it Albie? I mean, I'm worried about everyone. What are you doing to us? Mike? Well, the fun thing about Yeah, what I'd like about this format is that, like I like, I kind of like a slow simmer, you know, so it's it's fun. Well, you know, I think the pleasure of this one, and certainly this season and last season two, I think is like, you know, you hope you create very credible characters, and you create a situation that like you're like it passes the bullish ship detector to some degree and that and then and then just start to like cook up the gap, you know, like turn up the heat just so it's like, you know, it's like almost like when you're on the yeah roller coaster and you're like chi chi ch and you're like going up and you're like this is gonna go really far down, like we are really going chick. So yeah, And I think the finale hopefully will satisfy the Catharsis And I mean, yeah, there's gonna be a lot of there's gonna be a lot of gnashing of teeth and it's yes, but but yeah, you should be worried. I keep thinking about that story of the woman that fell that they threw off the mountain. I also keep worrying about the the wife of the the cheesy finance guy saying, Oh, you're gonna die here. They're gonna have to drag you out of this place. I keep thinking, oh, what does that mean? I have my right to pick up on some of these things. I mean, well, some of them are intentional to build the for the finale, and some are a little bit mrrects so that people think, yeah, you want to You want people to like feel like they're you know, Miss Marple and they've got the clues, but you need extra clues. You know, it's not so obvious what happens. But I think people I think even if you guess you're gonna be surprised, but just how it all falls apart um. I love the way you use art interchangeably. First of all, obviously you're obsessed with kind of those water shots, which I really liked to but I love the I love the painting, the artifacts, the architecture, the shots of the porcelain head, of that same porcelain head guy that you keep going back to again and again. Tell me your thought process about using that as a way to propel the story forward or to foreshadow things, or to echo what might be going on at the time. Can you tell like that very intimly. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, well the tested him where I was when I got there, I was like, because they're everywhere in sicily those heads and the story behind it has to and the reason for the whole season was because these heads. I was like, because I would go around like, these heads are everywhere, and it was about adultery and violence and sexual jealousy, and I was like that just I had a different idea for the second season. I was like, no, we've got to do an operatic like itally in sexual jealousy storyline, I mean, and it's like that's that's what people want to see anyway. But also this is the part of my job that people should be jealous of, which is I go to Sicily. I'm telling them I'm doing white Lotus. All of the rich like Sicilians who have these pilazzos are willing to let me come in and like snoop around their house. I got to see all these and so like two of them ended up in the show. But like you walk around and you have no idea that behind this, like you know, edifice is like this incredible polazzo that they're all there. A lot of them are hidden, It's like and then to be able to like get access to those and see them, and I was like, well we gotta Like so when we would get into these places, I was like, we gotta shoot. We gotta just like fire hose this down, Like we gotta get every piece of art on the walls, like we gotta do push ins on all of the you know. So for someone who like you know, likes interior, you know whatever, like these kind of like classic Max the List, eclectic, like you know, like rich, you know, Palazza is like I was just like I was in heaven. So I just felt like I had to make the most of it. And I mean it must have been an extraordinary place to film. And is that a real hotel? Was that hotel vacant as well? Or tell me about the location. I want to go to that hotel? Yeah you should. It's it's the Sandamnico Palace, which is like a very historical um. It was originally a convent and thenn turned into a hotel, but it's been a hotel for quite a lot a long time, and Lave and Turo was shot there. It's like it's it's a it's amazing because obviously, you know, I got we we looked at a lot of different hotels and it's just like, first the convent part of it just gives it this added kind of you know vibe, and then you know, you see these terraced hills with all these different you know villas, you know that are so classic and European, and and then you have the Greek theater on one side, and then the Ionian Sea in front, and then the mount now which is literally you know, belching smoke half the time. And he was like, this is if we're going to go to Europe, this is what you go for you go for these views. So it's definitely I I highly recommend Tarmina and Sicily itself. It's it's like you really can't spend enough time there. It's like as each you know, it was just after a few days it was like I was like, Okay, we've done the sightseeing, but like it's just like then there's just this like vibe over time that just really seduces you. Did you find Luccia and Mia in Sicily? No, we we found them in Rome. Uh. Simona who plays Lucia is actually from Naples and um MIA's from Rome. But we had a great set of casting directors from Italy who brought us a lot of options. And those those two and Sabrina and Patria Tory who plays the manager, they're all they were all incredible and so fun to work with. Yeah, they were fun to watch, I'll tell you that. And I know that you have said that the show satirizes wealthy, white privilege, and you've said that your intention was to quote unquote poke the Bear, but through a humanist perspective. So help us out with that, Mike, what did you mean, um, well, poke the Bear? I don't you know obviously you're I'm satirizing privilege, but you know, especially with the first season, I also was poking the bear as far as some of the I don't know, like I wanted to give voice to both you know, the critiques of of the patriarchy and all of these things that you know, we we are discussing, you know, and have been discussing with fervor the last couple of years, but also give voice to the people that are you know, it's like, you know, I haven't hearing you know, like like some of the conversations that I'm hearing that people don't want to say in public but like behind closed doors, and try to you know, like not you know, make it so it you're kind of walking the line where okay, well that's sort of is a fair point, and then like, oh yeah, but you're saying that because this is you know, you're you're defending, you know, you're on your heels, So like trying to make it so it's not so such a simple, predigested conversation and and and have those conversations be um lively and like you know, multi layered, multi layered enough that like people feel like, oh they're they're being seen and then and it's still challenged and so and that was that was what I was trying to do. And you know, like and and the fact that like people on both sides of some of these arguments, like champion the show or also like hated the show, made me feel like I did my job. Yeah, so you're you're really showing some of those tricky conversations that people do have behind closed doors. And I think that that's what contributes, Mike to the realness of the show and the dialogue that you know, you feel like this is what people really are talking about, and that you're not following some kind of prescriptive dialogue to be on the right side of any issue. Yeah, because I don't even I don't even It's like, ultimately, it's like, I don't think it's the dramatist job too. It's I don't think it's it's a message conveying machine. If I was trying to make a message, then I would be communicating in a different medium or a different kind of Uh. It's really about giving voice of the different people who exist in our world and try, you know, and do my best to to make it feel like it's a you know, a dimensional conversation after the break, why Mike spends so much time in the gray areas of human behavior. I know that lot of people have taken note that your characters, so many of them are just unlikable or complicated, or there are certain things you like in certain things you really don't like, so you feel conflicted. And I feel very conflicted about Tanya. I really disliked her at the end of last season, and now I don't dislike her. I feel sorry for her because she's quite competitive pathetic, but she's also sort of lovable too. Yeah, well, I I mean yeah, I mean well, Jennifer Coolidge is lovable period, and and so she brings the loveability for sure. But yeah, I do think it's like I, especially the first season, you know, I wanted there to be two tracks, which is, you know, her as the underdog who's looking for love and dealing with the fact that her mom died and you know the pain of that, and so on one side you're rooting for her, and then there's this other story where she's kind of dangling this carrot over this other woman's you know, and future and making her feel like there's hope for something and then she's kind of a flake. And that just seems very true to life to for me to some of these women that I've met and or you know man or too about just like where you know, they see themselves as a victim in some sense and and the savior or savior or savior yeah, and and they don't see how that they can also be victimizing and that they that they yeah, that they they have agency and that they are yeah, that that they are somehow blowing it. Let let me ask you about some of the other characters in kind of a rapid fire way. We talked about Mia and Lucia, and we talked about Valentina. Um. Let's talk about Porsche and I love this discussion online about Porsche's clothes. Have you seen this, Mike, that she dresses like good gen Z Threat Store, Like nothing really goes together, like it doesn't look good or not. I mean, what do you think of all that? It's so funny. Well, a lot of the credit goes to um, I mean that was her character on the page, But Hailey Lou Richardson, who's the actress, and then Alex Bavert, who is our costum designer, you know, are the true geniuses behind her looks. And you know, I'm I'm a little bit like women's fashion is not my um go too, but I but I but I did weigh in. I did weigh in. I approved, I supervised, but I uh but um yeah, I just think that you know, to me, Porscha is somebody who I see this a lot, and this was something that I feel like online I think is the thing that I I find interesting is that there's a lot of people who are like rich, you know, like bad bad rich people. Rich people are terrible, you know, like it's this like this kind of like you know that that I that I'm allowed to make the show as long as I show how bad rich people are. That the moral of the story is that rich people are better something. And it's like and and and obviously you know there is there's truth to that, like a lot of rich people are fighting up the world and so like I you know, but but I also you know you and so like I guess Porsche was like a vehicle to explore how she sees in Tanya all of these bad character traits and that she you know, if and if she had what Tanya had, she would have her life together, and she would be she you know, like she would be She wouldn't do it better than Tanya. But you see how in her own way she's she is kind of lost in the In a similar way, she's actually kind of a mini me to Tanya and a fat Tanya tells, Porsche, you remind me a lot of myself when I was younger. But I also think Porsche is very gen Z and that she's sort of a little bit lost and just doesn't know what she wants to do. She doesn't really have any goals. She's trying to figure it out. Did that I mean, do you know young people like that that kind of helped shape that character? Yeah, I do think. I mean again, I don't want to get crucified, but I do think I've noticed in this younger generation a desire to try on identities and and and feel like there's something like, like, I don't know, courageous about about identity as a way to express yourself through whatever, like through the way you talk about yourself or the clothes you wear or whatever. But like, ultimately it is very label gazing, and it adds to I think adds to um malaise. I think it actually it makes your It's like the more you start like yeah, like talking about yourself and thinking about yourself along these lines, it actually just exacerbates the problem that you're trying to solve. So like I think a little bit of Porsche comes through and that I mean, I I you know, like I don't want to think that I'm totally you know, but like she's just like I want this and I don't know if I just want to have filled and it's like, you know, it's just there's just something about that that's just yeah, it's maybe it's yeah, maybe it's ages of maybe I'm just like I've become the person that makes you. But like I just when I was younger, it was just like it's to me, I still feel like it's like you mean to like move outside of yourself, to like find courage and move outside of your own you know, it's like your own navel gazing to really then fully developed. You know. It's like if you're just always looking inside and doing selfies and then calling yourself a different thing, and it's all about the closure where you know, it's like that that just feels like that's um, that's going to be a dead End Road. So that's Porsche. And what about the foursome of Harper, Ethan, Cameron, and Daphne. I have to say, I think Oprey Plaza is my favorite character in the whole show. I like her perpetual state of on we that is now kind of morphed into something else all together. And I love what you're doing about jealousy with Ethan and uh and and Harper. So tell me a little bit about Harper's character. Well, I I Aubrey is a friend of mine and I wanted to get her in the show, So a little bit of it started with just like trying you know, Aubrey is a very complicated, interesting person and and but she's kind of known for this sort of dead like the way she comes in at the beginning is kind of like maybe the way people see her or what thing they think that she's gonna be if she joins the white lotus world, but then start to show these other kind of more vulnerable sides and that her toughness is a little bit of a front and and um, but I liked, you know, like what I was trying to do with that whole storyline is, you know, it has to do with it kind of what Brad status was as far as status, but like with secondly, like whether we're always comparing ourselves in our relationship to other people's relationships and what they have and what they it seems like they you know, like what they do better, what they do worse? And how how um? And I was kind of playing a little bit at the beginning where it's like you think, Okay, here's atar like NPR listening like you know, liberal, like you know, like these are the good guys that are gonna relate to. And then this other couple they're so vacuous and you know, it's like but then kind of playing a little bit with which is maybe that other couple is like dysfunctional and crazy. It's like, well they seem to be having more fun, like you know, like that that that maybe you know, like maybe it's not as as simple as all of that. And and I don't want to give away the ending, but yeah, how it all, How it all lands is kind of a little bit of insight into what I'm trying to I'm not saying, but like, yeah, try to reveal something a little bit more unexpected. I guess it also seems to be a bit of a commentary on tech and finance bros. Mm hmm, yeah, Well I just think new money, new money status um competition um, that weird sort of dance you play when you're financially dependent on someone, which it seems like Cameron is sort of uh needs Ethan because he's made a boatload of money in tech, right, there's something weird about that dynamic. Well, I definitely I as a got a guy, I've been privy to lots of conversations over the years. I live like next to Brentwood, so there's just like you know, the Brentwood country Mark where like lawyers and finance people and whatever like people in our my industry or whatever, and how they how their buddies. But like even in the in every conversation, you just sense this peacocking and like they're trying to figure out like where they stand as far as who's making them more money, you know, who makes like where Yeah, it's uh and so that's always very funny to me because I I whatever and it's yeah, so yeah, I was kind of playing with like yeah, they're friends, but like are they friends? Like what are they? Like? Like the competition is so heavy that it's just like can they ever really be friends? You know? Yeah, I find that whole sort of forsome fascinating, and I love f Murray Abraham, which I mean, by the way, what a what a feather in your cap to get him to be in White Lotus. And then you've got from the Sopranos, You've got Michael Imperial. Imperial can help me with that, Michael Imperioli. Yeah, and who plays his son. And then you have Adam DeMarco who plays Albi. Uh so you have these three generations of Italian Americans. Yeah, so yeah. Uh well, first of all, yes, Murray and Michael are I'm huge I was huge fans of prior and then working with them even more so. Uh, Murray is like, you know, he's I think he's eighty two years old, and he's so still like enamored with the process and acting and storytelling and it's inspiring. And Michael is one of the most He's in the pantheon of like the easiest, most like generous actors I've ever worked with. So like, those two are incredible. And then of course Adam to Mark was one of the sweetest kids, so like they were a great group, but like contextually as far as the ideas of that, I just feel like, you know, I wanted you know, it's kind of getting into male sexuality and desire and male role, you know, the role like you know, men's roles and when it comes to romance and how they deal with the women, and and just voicing the different um generational attitudes in a kind of classic way. Uh, and and how they're all kind of even though they're all sort of negotiating with the new ways of talking about relationships and sex and um uh and the interactions with women, that they're all kind of trapped in a certain sense. To Derek, who works on this podcast, who's one of the producers, talked about how this season portrays a wide variety of sexual relationships and entanglements and you were just talking about sex, just as the opening title sequence portrays uh increasing debauchery in the art as the rollicking theme song plays, the show itself feels like it's revealing more and more about the ways that humans experience their sexuality or suppress it or given to it or both. Even these are Derek's observations, and I'm curious what you think of that, and sort of how you were trying to portray different just different kinds of relationships, and for example, you portray sex workers, you know, Lucia and Me a very differently than kind of what we normally see in TV, books or movies. Well, I, you know, with the title sequence, I basically said, you know, it should start with these kind of pretty you know, like like you're going into a palazzo and the beautiful walls, and then you start seeing little things in the corners and you realize there's this kind of mischievous or even kind of creeper pervy like sexual things that are happening in the margins. And then by the end of the credit sequence, it's almost like a Bosch painting of like just you know in the and where you know, the carnality of it and in the desire of it is is like front and center. And I felt like that with the season two, which is like you start off and it's like you a little bit of these repressed people trying to like you know, figure out, like you know, how to have a good vacation, and that like being in the in the in sight to of Sicily and in this kind of a little crucible that like the desire and you start seeing desire and everyone and it's yeah, it becomes a very horny show. And I just felt like it was like especially like you know, like and as far as like yeah, I mean and I yeah, you know, I I don't. I don't think I'll always write stories like this. It is not certainly my wheelhouse like directing scenes of like intimacy between people and like getting people nude and stuff. It's just like I was like, you know, like I was like, this is not something that I was like, whatever you guys want to do, like what's thankfully you know, when you hire actors that are exhibitionists, they're often less inhibited than I am, so like they're like you want me to take my top off? Uh yeah, sure if that's good, You sure that's okay? Yeah, So like so yeah, so that was but I and I, um, but I do feel like it was like it's fun to show I actually think it's fun to show women horny horny women, because I feel like that sometimes is something that like, you know, a lot of times in in in drama, it's like they're either victimized or virginal or like I don't know, it's there or is it or or it's like this kind of like you know, um, like they'll talk it's like sex in the city. It's like it's it's very like talky, but like you know where you're actually feeling the desire and feeling the um you know. It's like and you know, to me, that just feels true to life in a way. I guess I don't know how else to put it, but anyway, so um so yeah, So I just thought it was like, let's do sex, let's just go all in and and that was kind of the I was like, if we're gonna go all in, it's like by the end, you just want to feel like, yeah, the animal in them, in each of these um human characters. So this is the big question. Is there going to be a white it is three? Is there going to be a third season? Yes, they picked us up for a third season, and yeah where Mike, where, Well, I want to go to Asia, That's what I think. Look, I mean it feels like, you know, you started like America, then you do Europe. It feels like the next one would be I don't know, I don't know why that feels that. It's just like I'm trying to think like like, yeah, where does Katie current go on vacation? Where you tell me? Actually, I you know what. I ran into you once on vacation where I was in Yeah, I was in Berlin, staying at a classic old hotel in the middle Berlin, and I forget the name of it, and you were staying there at the same time with I ran into you. I ran I think we were like there the same days or whatever, because I ran into you. You were very friendly all you seem like you're having a good time. I was with my husband, who still good great, and yeah, you guys. I don't know if you were there for work or vacation or whatever, but you were. We were there for vacation. And you know, Mike husband John is a huge Survivor nut. I mean, he has seen every season. He finds it fascinating, so he loves you from Survivor. That's cool. I think it was prior to me during Survivor you were it might I think it was what didn't I got married in so it was probably it was like after that it was like, yeah it was sixteen maybe, yeah, I did survive Okay, Well now here you seemed very um, Yeah, you seem like you had happy energy. I liked I liked you from just the vibe. That's so nice? Well is I don't want to spoil the finale, but do you think we'll see Tanya in the third season? I love well, I love, I love writing Tanya and I love I love We're going to Jennifer, So definitely could be. You can't tell me. If you tell, do you, you'd have to kill me, right, Mike, Well, what do you mean you want? Well, you never know. Could be I'm not telling you, you know, I don't want to ruin it. A huge thank you to my guests, Mike White. I imagine you're all tuning in this Sunday, December eleven for the finale to find out who makes it out of the White Lotus alive. If not, whenever you're listening to this, Happy Benjene. Next Question with Katie Kirk is a production of I Heart Media and Katie Kurk Media. The executive producers Army Katie Kuric and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements and Adriana Fasio. The show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter, Wake Up Paul, go to Katie Couric dot com. You can also find me at Katie correct on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.