If you're like me, you probably listened to, or perhaps we're obsessed with the Missing Richard Simmons podcast. The host and creator Dan to Birsky, spent a few years trying to find out why Richard Simmons abruptly cut himself off from his adoring fans and so many good friends he made along the way. So over the course of this series, I'm looking for Richard. I'm reaching out in any way I can and exploring every theory. The goal isn't to drag him back. It's to find out why someone like him would ditch the world. This is Missing Richard Simmons. Dan visited Richard's brother in New Orleans. He pretty much talked to everyone who knew Richard at some point in their lives. Richard Simmons hasn't been seen in public for over three years. I was particularly interested in this podcast because I had interviewed Richard several times in the past, and I too was worried about him. And I have to be honest, listening to this made me fall in love with Richard Simmons all over again. And I'm not the only one. This podcast has been a huge hit. It was the number one most downloaded podcast on iTunes. But now that the show was over all six episodes, there are still a lot of questions. I guess the primary one is why did Richard become a recluse? But there are also people who are questioning Dan's decision to make this podcast and the ethics of doing so. In fact, the New York Times even called it quote unquote morally suspect. So I sat down with Dan to talk about why he wanted to do this, what his experience was like, and his reaction to all the criticism. Dan to Bersky, is so nice to see you. Dan. So how are you feeling now that everything is done? I can't imagine the wild ride you've been on. It was a wild ride and it was, um it still is, I guess a little bit. Um. I'm I am super pleased that it's done, just because until it's done, you don't know how it's going to turn out, quality wise, and I'm super happy with how it turned out. Um, but it was a lot. It was a lot of It started out just like we watched a creep up the iTunes start and then people your phone start ringing, and then it is an avalanche. Uh, and it struck a chord, which is so lovely. I'm super excited about that. So it was a little overwhelming, And of course it's been controversial. There's been a lot of criticism of the podcast, and we'll talk about that later, but I want to talk about this as a medium, if you will. You're a documentary filmmaker. You did a film called These cock Sucking Tears, and I wanted to say that because I thought people would enjoy hearing me say the title of your film. I wanted And you also obviously worked in television a producer at The Daily Show, So what made you decide to do a podcast instead of a TV show. It was an unusual story, and I was sort of following it as it was happening, and I was doing it as a documentary. I started shooting it as a documentary. I was shooting video and I actually started on my iPhone. I was literally like I had the whole rig and like, yeah, I was doing it all myself. And I think part of that is just like it needs to reach critical mass, like you just got. You think it would have been successful as a film. As a documentary, I'm really glad it wasn't a documentary, because what happens to the documentary is that you finished it and then there's like a year until it comes out. I also think it would have I think oddly just the audio. Just having audio only is more intimate, even though you're missing a sense. But I actually think having the visuals as well might have made it fee you a little more invasive and not in a good way. Like it's just and a lot of people are uncomfortable with their bodies that I'm talking to, and you know, it just adds another element of do I really want to pour my heart out to you? And were you influenced by any other podcasts? For example? Were you a big fan of Sereal? Is that one of the things that made you gravitate towards this? Um? I was influenced by serial and just that I really liked it. UM. I will say I don't have a particular love of like mystery, like I don't love true crime. That was a big part of this, not true crime, but the mystery element. Yeah, and and part of but also part of that was me figuring out how to do that part and sometimes in the podcast with my producer Henry, like, I don't know if it comes through in the podcast. But sometimes you know, and especially the people at pine Stream Media, they were pushing me to do things due diligence. You have to do the basics. You have to reach out this way and that way, and those are the things that made me uncomfortable, but that still needed to be done. Like the sort of mystery solving parts were not my favorite part. The favorite parts we're talking about Richard and the impact he had. What kinds of things do they make you do that made you uncomfortable, Katy? I mean you opened that door, Dan, No, not anything I'm uncomfortable to. You know, this sounds absurd, but sometimes I'm just uncomfortable to talk to people. And so things like you know, just going and knocking on Richard's door, like that was something I needed to do. I needed to reach out to Richard and just do the basics, like if he answered the door and he's like, hey man, come on in, Like there goes a podcast. But I needed to know those things. Let's peek behind the curtains. Tell us how much traveling you did, the reporting that you did before the episode started to air, how this was done in real time? Can you just tell us a little bit about your process feel like I'm interviewing Martin Scorsese. Somehow I appreciate the comparison. I don't get carried away totally the other way. No, I didn't mean that, but I just, you know, I want you to get too big for your bridges. As my mom would say, it will not happen. My bridges are just fine. The process was, um, it was a long one. I mean I had originally met Richard in two thousand twelve, and I wanted to do a documentary on him from the beginning. Uh, And so that was our process of getting to know each other was you know, we were getting to know each other, but there was also you know, there was another level of like do I trust you to tell my story? So that started in two thousand twelve. He disappeared in two thousand thirteen, and then about a year later, I kind of realized that everybody was sort of wondering what is going on? And there were no easy answers, and a lot of people were really worried, um, sincerely worried. Um. What did he say when you approached him about a documentary? He said no? Wink, he said, he said no. And then but he said it with a smile, and we kept talking and I that was the first day I took his class, and I said, all right, I'll just keep going to class. And so I did you bring it up again? Uh? Not for a while. Um. And then maybe six months later I kind of raised it again and then what did he say? He said, I don't remember exactly what I said, but it was like a slow process of he sort of invited me to come to behind the scenes of one of the tapings of his videos. Um. And then he sort of invited me to lunch where we could talk about it just that without like the class or anything else distracting us. So you felt like you were making some progress in achieving your goal of producing a documentary. Sure, yeah, yeah, for sure. And then no, uh, we we actually started doing negotiating a deal um about which gets complicated about life rights and stuff like that, and house it's gonna work. Um. And then sort of an early fall of two thousand thirteen, Um, he I moved back to New York, uh, and he put it on hold. And then a couple months later he had disappeared, but we were still in touch and still talking. He just wasn't quite ready, um, but then he the disappeared quite literally. But you really thought it was all systems go, that the two of you were going to make a documentary together. I thought, no, I thought we had hit a we hit a pause button, which is totally fine, but oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we were for sure like it was a we were doing it, like you told people in the class, and like you said it out loud and we talked. Yet for sure it was happening. You also traveled extensively, went to New Orleans and showed up outside his brother's house there you, as you mentioned, went to Richard's house in l A. How much traveling did you have to do for this? I would say, I mean I went to we went to New Orleans, and we went to Mississippi, and then I went to l A about five or six times. I mean I was out there, I would say for four weeks altogether for this, which, gosh, I guess that's a lot. You set boundaries for yourself, Dan, You did you going into this say I won't do A, B and C. Or did those boundaries evolve as the project went on? The boundaries definitely did not evolve. Um, I would say, I mean I don't consider myself a journalist. I consider myself a documentarian, which are very similar rules, but documentarians is a little more artful. You're trying, you're you're allowed to be a little looser, not with the facts, but with how you're expressing things. Um. But also the easier rule was just like I consider him a friend of mine, and what would you do to a friend of yours? Like that became not pretending like I wasn't out to get this guy. I wasn't out too upset him. I wasn't out to expose anything. So just saying like, you know what, like I'm not doing that. He's like, I consider him my friend. He wouldn't want that, Like that was kind of an easy line. So how did you figure out which lines you wouldn't cross? Whichever one's made me nauseous? It's a it's a I only I'm only half kidding, Like if I really just don't feel right, I'm just like I don't want to do that, Like I have to decide if it's um, if it's just nerves, or if it's really like now, there's something wrong with that. Like in the past three years, I've been outside of Richard's house maybe a total ten minutes, like you know what I mean, Like a lot of the things that people think, oh, you crossed boundaries, Like in fact, people just think we cross boundary because we're showing them what we were doing, like we were quite honest. Like I'm gonna go knock on the door now, because that's basic. You gotta do it if you're looking for somebody whereas another journalist or a television crew, like they'll be camped out for days and like, but you don't see that part. Still for some reason, it feels less intrusive. But in fact, like I hardly I didn't make any contact with him hard I talked to his manager a couple of times. Like it was just on the peripheries. If you had to do it over again, would you do anything differently? Um No, I'm not saying I didn't make mistakes. I think I did make mistakes, although most of the mistakes people people probably didn't pick up on. Like if um, I'm really proud of it. Um, I'm really proud of it. You can be proud of it, but also maybe think regret a few things in it. Um, I wish I was more prepared to understand that if people started listening to that would change it, that that would change that, that would change what was happening. Like the first I think what happened is that people were really on board and they were like, oh my gosh, Richard Simms is amazing. And I don't think it's exaggerating to say that I did remind people that Richard Sims is amazing, and I do think he has really become one dimensional in the past ten twenty years, and that part of the fun of this was just saying you don't understand, like he's this businessman and he's helping all these people and all these dimensions. Part of it was really like any biography in a way. Yeah, But once people realized that it wasn't just the guy that Letterman was making fun of in short shorts, then people were like, Richard's amazing, and they're like, wait a minute, leave rich Or alone. So I kind of put myself into a trap again that we weren't doing anything that was actually there was nothing in truth about what we were doing. But I think that more people got to know Richard, the more they felt like they knew him. That got into your head, though, But the fact that you were doing this in real time sort of some of the backlash again into the show. How did it influence sort of the latter episodes. The stress level went up, like way up, like intensely up for me. But that I do that to myself, um as as I think you know a lot of directors, producers or anybody would do describe how that felt when people started saying, hey, wait a minute. Um, it's not. It's not just that hey wait a minute is fine because they weren't. Nobody out there has asked anything that we haven't been asking ourselves for the past three years. And I think that's what that like. We went eyes wide open, like I have never worked on a project for this long, so considerately. Um. I don't mean as a complent. I just mean, like the sheer time and do deal, gents, we did to make sure that we were doing things away that we thought were was right. Um. So it's more about the criticism, a little bit of criticism, plus people really waiting for the next episode, plus people who know Richard wanting to know what's going on, plus knowing that Richard's out there and wondering what he's thinking, plus just sheer time, Like you start to run out of time. UM. So all that sort of coalesces into nothing new, nothing that I'm sure you or a million other people haven't experienced times ten. But you know, for me, this time it was me. So it's serious and it was a new phenomenon for you. Yeah, I had never had you know, I had I had a kids show like uh five years ago in Cartoon Network that was a really big hit, but it was a big hit with kids, and so like nobody knew what I was doing, Like if a twelve year old came up to me, I was the rock star, but it was really under the radar with adults. UM. And there was something really um pressureless about that UM. But this was the first time where I did something you know that I was at the center of that um that became really um intense like that and so quickly and so surprisingly. I wanna play a clip from the podcast. Here is what you told your producer Henry at the start of the project. If he said to you, like, why are you doing this? What would you say? In my perfect world of worlds, this gesture would be the entire world and all the people around him telling Richard Simmons that he should love himself and to the point where he would believe it. I know that's impossible, but it'd be great. Go ahead. Oh sorry, I thought that was more. Never my good. I just oh my god. I just put my finger up to Kati. Correctly, Katie hold on saying great. Many people have said that the grand gesture this podcast in your Search for Richard Simmons Dan wasn't all that grand. That at best it was sweet, but at worst intrusive and perhaps even self serving. Let me read to you what a critic in The New York Times said. I just say, I've never read this. People told me about. Oh please read it, but people told me about anyway. I just have one line from this article. The writer said it was morally suspect, and added is what friends do, turn their loved ones personal crisis into a fun mystery investigation and record it for a hit podcast. The hit podcast part that I love that. I love that it's assumed that I just knew this was going to be a hit, like for me. I for me, it feels like I tricked people into giving me money to make this project about somebody that I think is really great, and I it never of course I wanted it to be a big thing, but I didn't realize that it would be. The flip side of that is, I really do think that there's a real question of like, when are you supposed to start asking these questions about people that you think are great and that are important and you think might be in trouble. I mean, are we supposed to wait? Like this might sound grim? Uh, you know, are we supposed to wait till you know, in twenty years, like Richard Simmons is dead, and then you know, and then he lived the last twenty years of his life in solitude, and there's all these questions about it, and then you know, people just line up like planes landing into l a X trying to get on MSNBC to talk about it. Um and for some and for some reason, that would be the sad thing to do for me. But with all due respect, is that really your job? I mean, who made you the guy who should be responsible for tracking down Richard Simmons when maybe he just wants to be left alone. I would think that, you know, I think anybody who sort of endeavors in a project like this, there's some sort of you have to decide that this is a story worth telling. UM. You know, I also think that, um, there were real questions, and because I knew him, UM, it made me feel like I was in a position to ask these questions, whereas other people maybe couldn't. UM. Do you think you know, when you say that, people might think, well, he was really taking advantage of this friendship. Uh, they might that that would be a shame. UM, but I certainly hope they wouldn't. I mean, I do think it's worth reminding people and myself that there were real questions up to six weeks ago about what was going on with Richard Simmons. And that's not a joke, that's not hyperbole, that's not you know, making something out of nothing. That to me, knowing many many people, almost anybody I knew who knew Richard Simmons from that class and knew him for years, thought that something was wrong. And everybody, every one of those people, including me, recognized that what they felt and what they knew about Richard and what his management and his publicists were saying did not match up. They were saying, he just retired, He's fine, That's not what happened. And so it created this like there was just this gap between what the people who were around him were saying versus what the people who knew him were feeling. And I think in in in large part, we're correct at. On top of that, one of the one of the closest people to Richard before he disappeared, who I got to know through Richard, who Richard told me to trust, was telling me that something's going on here, that this is not good, that this is scary, and here the reasons. So it wasn't. This isn't. There's a part of it where we treat it really light and have fun with it, just like Richard will cry one second and laugh the next, Like I love that sort of thing. But there's another part of this where people were concerned and it bared investigating. How did you reach out to some of the other people who you feature in the podcast. The woman who Richard drove to exercise class, who is how old again? She's naughty five. She just had a ninety fifth birthday. My name is Jerry, Jerry Sinclair. Other friends call Gi yeah and and and she was so sweet and really darling in this podcast. Not many people have a fourty year relationship with their exercise instructor. Well, these easy love and I do I did become like a second mother. How did you convince her? I mean was she reticent? No, she wasn't reticent. The people around her were reticent. UM. And I think the fact that I had been taking the class and that I was a familiar face to a lot of these people, UM, and that I wasn't an outsider coming in trying to do a story and Richard Simmons, I was kind of coming from within and saying, Hey, what's going on, guys and sort of hearing what everybody was saying, really not understanding what was happening. Um. And I think there was a familiarity that UM that allowed me to talk to people. It just it made them open up a little bit more. But it was still not an easy road to ho like, people are still really protective of Richard, and people are afraid to you know, they don't want to say something that's going to be misconstrued. And so did anyone call you after you interviewed them and say I don't really feel comfortable do you mind not including that? Were you hoping that this would end with Richard being an interview with you and telling you where he'd been, what he'd been doing and what had happened, um, and the best of all possible worlds. Yeah, and the best of all possible worlds. Um. A big part of what I was hoping for was that he would feel that that he would that he would feel that a lot of people think and felt that he was isolated and alone in a way that wasn't healthy for him or for others, and that he would tell the same to them when he was there, like it's it's a big part of obesity. Is like when we talked about in the podcast, is is you isolate yourself, um, and it's unhealthy and you have to find people you trust. And I you know, Misca supposedly is at his fighting weight. Detective Becker tells me that, Yeah, it was just great, It's amazing. Um. But what I was hoping was that if he wasn't in a good way, that he would feel that that love and he would feel that understanding and people respecting the impact he's made on them, and that would have an impact. I'm sure. So in a way, you tried to deliver a love letter, not a voyeuristic invasion of privacy. No, I mean I would try to do a love letter. I also tried to tell a really compelling story. UM. I also tried to tell the story of you know, the story of Richard Simmons is an incredible one that people forgot absolutely. I will say in terms of voyers UM. I don't mean this to sound coy, but there's a ton of stuff that we didn't put in there, like stuff that people that he would never want anybody talking about. Um. And and so it wasn't about digging up dirt and putting it out there like I I we that's not what this was at all. Like if if we wanted to do voyeuristic, that would have been super easy, and that's not I hope that's not what we did. Well. It's interesting because some of the things that you anticipated would be included in the sixth episode, uh, they weren't. And you explain at the beginning that if people were wondering what was left out, it included a boom box and a letter. You're gills at gift wrapping and you being way too deep into the story, and you say to the listeners, if you ever wonder what what happened and what we kept out, asked me, and I'll tell you so Dan, why did you take things out? What were they? They were? Um? And I do think that's definitely part of the um challenge of doing something in real time, like you know, episode five comes out and you're not quite sure what episodes ticks is going to be because it's happening, like the phone's ringing and people are giving you information that you feel like it's important. And um. There were two things that we were going to put in there. UM. There was one where UM, where I wanted to make sure that Richard was hearing the podcast because that was a big part of this. And literally, like sometimes I think about Richard Simmons like my grandmother, like I'm not quite sure if he knows how the internet works type thing. Um. And so it was literally just putting what we had done into a boom box and putting on his front on a stoop. I guess if you can call a mansion. I don't know if a mansion has a stoop, um, but from steps, yeah, exactly, uh and to uh and to get his reaction and so that we would know that he would had heard it. The other thing that was in there UM was something about to the entilator characters Morrow and Teresa. UM and basically, gosh, how do I say this without um, without telling you, because the whole point of not putting in there was to not tell people. UM. I think yeah, the reasoning was it was it was UM. It turned out to be. My my sense is that what we were going to put in there in wretched after talking to people, because after the podcast came out, a lot more people started talking to us, UM, a lot more people who were close to Richard. We're giving us there two cents in a really good way. UM. And we kind of realized that the stuff that we thought was important uh and pertain to Richard, it was less about Richard and it was more about Morrow and Teresa. UH. And so it was drama and it was good tape. UM. But in the end, the story that we really wanted to tell was the story about Richard. And as we got closer to the end, we realized, you know what, that's just not it's just bringing up stuff that doesn't affect Richard at all. I think it's just about them. I will say that we were over I think there's lesson learned in terms of being over zealous with a tease. Don't tease what you can't deliver, Dan, I know I under promise and over deliver, I know for sure. Well I have to ask you though, I have to ask you about the boom box. Can you tell me it? Oh? What happened? Yeah? Yeah, what happened? I know you put it there, but what happened? Okay? So did you hear the tease? Yeah? Okay, so yeah, yeah, okay, So here's what happened. It's gonna sound really small, um, but it was kind of incredible. So what happened is we put it down. Um. It had four balloons on it and um, and it was a boom box with the podcast in it. And I put it his front door or over the fence. Um, which is super easy to do, um because it's right there in the street. And then we left and as we're driving away, we saw Trace, so the housekeeper come pick it up. So we're like, great, mission accomplished. He's gonna get it. And inside was a note saying we moved back tomorrow at nine o'clock. If you want to talk to me, I don't know if you're getting into my messages. I don't know if it's getting through through Trace. I don't know if it's getting through your manager. If if we'll come back at out o'clock tomorrow and we'll wait ten minutes um. If um, if you come out, then then we'll be waiting for you. We could talk. If not, well this is it. That's it, we're done. Um. And he didn't come out. Um, and a bird shit on me and like I started raining. Yeah totally. Oh the gods were literally like enough to burs key. Um all really like benign stuff like just like so why not include that because it wasn't important. It seemed silly compared to what really happened. Is that ultimately the person that we got closer to Richard than we thought we would, which was a manager and who shut me down over and over and who and he's known Richard for thirty years. Um. And then he decided to talk to me and gave me a quiet, an extentive interview and said something really, I mean, he speaks for Richard in in every way. And he said some things that were really surprising and really moving, and it became, um, a more real story and a sadder story. Um that made the other stuff feel unimportant. Look, we all we all know that this is you know, a very emotional, um, empathetic, sympathetic, compassionate person. I think anybody that has those traits over a long period of time. Yeah, I think goodbyes are tough. Yeah, most people want you know, you know, want want to want that last bow. Not everybody. Are you worried that Richard is upset with you for doing this? And I guess he is, or you've gotten the vibe that he is or not. Um, I don't know, I mean haven't but no, but through his representatives and his avoidance of of you, you know, he's just not that into you, Dan. Apparently it makes me clear it's not hard to avoid somebody when they're not I mean, he is an isolated person. He is in his home, does not speak, he's not he's he's isolating himself. So it's not like we weren't throwing rocks at his window. It's just saying, Richard, come out like that is not anywhere. But obviously you reached out repeatedly to all his his representatives, and you know clearly he knew that that's what you ultimately wanted. Look, if anybody had, if anybody has a problem with me calling his publicist a couple too many times, like that is the least of our worries here, you know, But I mean he was clearly avoiding you. I guess is the bottom certain? And are you worried that he is going to be like Dan, get off my back, lead me alone? Why are you doing this? Why are you capitalizing on our relationship? I don't want I want to be alone. I don't want this kind of attention. I'm pissed. It's possible, for sure. I don't know. He hasn't told me. I think it's not so much what I did. I think it's the way other people reacted to it, and so the press that follows, so now you know, like I just saw People magazine. There's a picture of his housekeeper like taking out the recycling, like literally people camped out. Are you sorry that you kind of started that? I am sorry for any negatives because I don't. I really like him. I think he's really special and I know he's a really sensitive guy. And but am I do I am? I really proud of it? Yeah? And do? I think it's impacted a lot of people. And I think I think to remind people about empathy at a time when studies show that empathy is at an all time low. I'm sure at an all tie exactly, at an all time low. Like it's a real thing, and so to remind people of the specialness of that, like I'm really proud of that, and I think it's had an impact. Are you convinced that Richard is Okay? I'm as convinced as I can be. I mean, I do know that his his manager, and I do think his housekeeper, I do think they love him very much, and um and this is you know, and I think that the stories are aligning now, like what his what the people around him are saying, is matching up to reality now, whereas before it wasn't, and it was very scary for a lot of people. You can you just can't overstate the real concerns and valid concerns that all the people around Richard Simmons had, especially when someone does such a one eight right, not only do they do. It's not like George Clooney decided he was going to go to Lake Como, you know, and take a couple of years off. He was the most accessible celebrity on the planet. He would wait at his window and run outside multiple times a day and talk to people and tour vans driving by and take pictures them. He wouldn't invite them into his house and give him stuff. And so I'm not saying he because he was so accessible before that he that he doesn't deserve privacy now, but it absolutely means that to switch like that on a day, UM is concerning at the very least, Where do you go from here? Dan? Here, You've got this podcast that's creating really a huge amount of buzz, a lot of controversy. It's really prompting Richard to be on the cover of People magazine. I mean, this is probably much bigger than you ever anticipated. So what are your plans for the future? Um, I don't know. I literally just finished the first I mean, I have a couple of things that I'm cooking up, but I mean hopefully it'll be Um, can you tell us what you're cooking up? Give it, give us a little bit of an idea. Why not? Yeah, I'm working, Well, give me a scoop here, Dan, It's not it's gonna sound really boring compared to this one. I'm working on a documentary idea about the Minnesota State Fair, uh and all the different people that coalesced on this thing that started a fifty years ago as for you know, if you're a way for farmers to get together, and now it's literally a crossroads of of different cultures and issues in the state and larger issues and plus you know, like butter sculptures. I was going to say, a big sea of humanity and a lot of funnel cakes. Yeah, I want to come back like I'll need Richard more than a lot of corn dogs. That sounds interesting. That's a good sign for sure. Dan to Bersky, thank you for talking to me, and I think your listeners will be interested in hearing your views on all this because this is a little more unfiltered and it's really coming from your heart. Thank you. Thanks to Dan to Pursky, First Look Media, and Stitcher for making this possible. I really enjoyed going behind the scenes of this podcast, and a big thank you to my team at Erewolf and mid Roll as well. Thanks to Gianna Palmer for producing and to Gared O'Connell mixing and engineering. Thanks also to our social media may event we like that because it's alliterative, Alison Bresnik, and to Emily Beana for her part in producing this show. Also a big thank you to Chris Bannon and Mark Phillips. Thank you as always for our Ruthie theme music. Bryan Goldsmith, Mitch s Emil and I are executive producers of this podcast. And lastly, if you came here because you're missing Richard Simmons fan and you liked what you heard, you might like other episodes of our podcast. We hope so like the one where Alec Baldwin shared what it's like to perform as President Trump on SNL, or when Samantha b gave her take on being the only woman in Late Night. Recently, I got Tony Robbins explanation of how President Trump's leadership style compares to President Obama's. Interesting right, So if you like what you've heard, please subscribe to my podcast on iTunes just search Katie Couric. Very creative, I know,

If you're like me, you probably listened to, or perhaps we're obsessed with the Missing Richard Simmons podcast. The host and creator Dan to Birsky, spent a few years trying to find out why Richard Simmons abruptly cut himself off from his adoring fans and so many good friends he made along the way. So over the course of this series, I'm looking for Richard. I'm reaching out in any way I can and exploring every theory. The goal isn't to drag him back. It's to find out why someone like him would ditch the world. This is Missing Richard Simmons. Dan visited Richard's brother in New Orleans. He pretty much talked to everyone who knew Richard at some point in their lives. Richard Simmons hasn't been seen in public for over three years. I was particularly interested in this podcast because I had interviewed Richard several times in the past, and I too was worried about him. And I have to be honest, listening to this made me fall in love with Richard Simmons all over again. And I'm not the only one. This podcast has been a huge hit. It was the number one most downloaded podcast on iTunes. But now that the show was over all six episodes, there are still a lot of questions. I guess the primary one is why did Richard become a recluse? But there are also people who are questioning Dan's decision to make this podcast and the ethics of doing so. In fact, the New York Times even called it quote unquote morally suspect. So I sat down with Dan to talk about why he wanted to do this, what his experience was like, and his reaction to all the criticism. Dan to Bersky, is so nice to see you. Dan. So how are you feeling now that everything is done? I can't imagine the wild ride you've been on. It was a wild ride and it was, um it still is, I guess a little bit. Um. I'm I am super pleased that it's done, just because until it's done, you don't know how it's going to turn out, quality wise, and I'm super happy with how it turned out. Um, but it was a lot. It was a lot of It started out just like we watched a creep up the iTunes start and then people your phone start ringing, and then it is an avalanche. Uh, and it struck a chord, which is so lovely. I'm super excited about that. So it was a little overwhelming, And of course it's been controversial. There's been a lot of criticism of the podcast, and we'll talk about that later, but I want to talk about this as a medium, if you will. You're a documentary filmmaker. You did a film called These cock Sucking Tears, and I wanted to say that because I thought people would enjoy hearing me say the title of your film. I wanted And you also obviously worked in television a producer at The Daily Show, So what made you decide to do a podcast instead of a TV show. It was an unusual story, and I was sort of following it as it was happening, and I was doing it as a documentary. I started shooting it as a documentary. I was shooting video and I actually started on my iPhone. I was literally like I had the whole rig and like, yeah, I was doing it all myself. And I think part of that is just like it needs to reach critical mass, like you just got. You think it would have been successful as a film. As a documentary, I'm really glad it wasn't a documentary, because what happens to the documentary is that you finished it and then there's like a year until it comes out. I also think it would have I think oddly just the audio. Just having audio only is more intimate, even though you're missing a sense. But I actually think having the visuals as well might have made it fee you a little more invasive and not in a good way. Like it's just and a lot of people are uncomfortable with their bodies that I'm talking to, and you know, it just adds another element of do I really want to pour my heart out to you? And were you influenced by any other podcasts? For example? Were you a big fan of Sereal? Is that one of the things that made you gravitate towards this? Um? I was influenced by serial and just that I really liked it. UM. I will say I don't have a particular love of like mystery, like I don't love true crime. That was a big part of this, not true crime, but the mystery element. Yeah, and and part of but also part of that was me figuring out how to do that part and sometimes in the podcast with my producer Henry, like, I don't know if it comes through in the podcast. But sometimes you know, and especially the people at pine Stream Media, they were pushing me to do things due diligence. You have to do the basics. You have to reach out this way and that way, and those are the things that made me uncomfortable, but that still needed to be done. Like the sort of mystery solving parts were not my favorite part. The favorite parts we're talking about Richard and the impact he had. What kinds of things do they make you do that made you uncomfortable, Katy? I mean you opened that door, Dan, No, not anything I'm uncomfortable to. You know, this sounds absurd, but sometimes I'm just uncomfortable to talk to people. And so things like you know, just going and knocking on Richard's door, like that was something I needed to do. I needed to reach out to Richard and just do the basics, like if he answered the door and he's like, hey man, come on in, Like there goes a podcast. But I needed to know those things. Let's peek behind the curtains. Tell us how much traveling you did, the reporting that you did before the episode started to air, how this was done in real time? Can you just tell us a little bit about your process feel like I'm interviewing Martin Scorsese. Somehow I appreciate the comparison. I don't get carried away totally the other way. No, I didn't mean that, but I just, you know, I want you to get too big for your bridges. As my mom would say, it will not happen. My bridges are just fine. The process was, um, it was a long one. I mean I had originally met Richard in two thousand twelve, and I wanted to do a documentary on him from the beginning. Uh, And so that was our process of getting to know each other was you know, we were getting to know each other, but there was also you know, there was another level of like do I trust you to tell my story? So that started in two thousand twelve. He disappeared in two thousand thirteen, and then about a year later, I kind of realized that everybody was sort of wondering what is going on? And there were no easy answers, and a lot of people were really worried, um, sincerely worried. Um. What did he say when you approached him about a documentary? He said no? Wink, he said, he said no. And then but he said it with a smile, and we kept talking and I that was the first day I took his class, and I said, all right, I'll just keep going to class. And so I did you bring it up again? Uh? Not for a while. Um. And then maybe six months later I kind of raised it again and then what did he say? He said, I don't remember exactly what I said, but it was like a slow process of he sort of invited me to come to behind the scenes of one of the tapings of his videos. Um. And then he sort of invited me to lunch where we could talk about it just that without like the class or anything else distracting us. So you felt like you were making some progress in achieving your goal of producing a documentary. Sure, yeah, yeah, for sure. And then no, uh, we we actually started doing negotiating a deal um about which gets complicated about life rights and stuff like that, and house it's gonna work. Um. And then sort of an early fall of two thousand thirteen, Um, he I moved back to New York, uh, and he put it on hold. And then a couple months later he had disappeared, but we were still in touch and still talking. He just wasn't quite ready, um, but then he the disappeared quite literally. But you really thought it was all systems go, that the two of you were going to make a documentary together. I thought, no, I thought we had hit a we hit a pause button, which is totally fine, but oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we were for sure like it was a we were doing it, like you told people in the class, and like you said it out loud and we talked. Yet for sure it was happening. You also traveled extensively, went to New Orleans and showed up outside his brother's house there you, as you mentioned, went to Richard's house in l A. How much traveling did you have to do for this? I would say, I mean I went to we went to New Orleans, and we went to Mississippi, and then I went to l A about five or six times. I mean I was out there, I would say for four weeks altogether for this, which, gosh, I guess that's a lot. You set boundaries for yourself, Dan, You did you going into this say I won't do A, B and C. Or did those boundaries evolve as the project went on? The boundaries definitely did not evolve. Um, I would say, I mean I don't consider myself a journalist. I consider myself a documentarian, which are very similar rules, but documentarians is a little more artful. You're trying, you're you're allowed to be a little looser, not with the facts, but with how you're expressing things. Um. But also the easier rule was just like I consider him a friend of mine, and what would you do to a friend of yours? Like that became not pretending like I wasn't out to get this guy. I wasn't out too upset him. I wasn't out to expose anything. So just saying like, you know what, like I'm not doing that. He's like, I consider him my friend. He wouldn't want that, Like that was kind of an easy line. So how did you figure out which lines you wouldn't cross? Whichever one's made me nauseous? It's a it's a I only I'm only half kidding, Like if I really just don't feel right, I'm just like I don't want to do that, Like I have to decide if it's um, if it's just nerves, or if it's really like now, there's something wrong with that. Like in the past three years, I've been outside of Richard's house maybe a total ten minutes, like you know what I mean, Like a lot of the things that people think, oh, you crossed boundaries, Like in fact, people just think we cross boundary because we're showing them what we were doing, like we were quite honest. Like I'm gonna go knock on the door now, because that's basic. You gotta do it if you're looking for somebody whereas another journalist or a television crew, like they'll be camped out for days and like, but you don't see that part. Still for some reason, it feels less intrusive. But in fact, like I hardly I didn't make any contact with him hard I talked to his manager a couple of times. Like it was just on the peripheries. If you had to do it over again, would you do anything differently? Um No, I'm not saying I didn't make mistakes. I think I did make mistakes, although most of the mistakes people people probably didn't pick up on. Like if um, I'm really proud of it. Um, I'm really proud of it. You can be proud of it, but also maybe think regret a few things in it. Um, I wish I was more prepared to understand that if people started listening to that would change it, that that would change that, that would change what was happening. Like the first I think what happened is that people were really on board and they were like, oh my gosh, Richard Simms is amazing. And I don't think it's exaggerating to say that I did remind people that Richard Sims is amazing, and I do think he has really become one dimensional in the past ten twenty years, and that part of the fun of this was just saying you don't understand, like he's this businessman and he's helping all these people and all these dimensions. Part of it was really like any biography in a way. Yeah, But once people realized that it wasn't just the guy that Letterman was making fun of in short shorts, then people were like, Richard's amazing, and they're like, wait a minute, leave rich Or alone. So I kind of put myself into a trap again that we weren't doing anything that was actually there was nothing in truth about what we were doing. But I think that more people got to know Richard, the more they felt like they knew him. That got into your head, though, But the fact that you were doing this in real time sort of some of the backlash again into the show. How did it influence sort of the latter episodes. The stress level went up, like way up, like intensely up for me. But that I do that to myself, um as as I think you know a lot of directors, producers or anybody would do describe how that felt when people started saying, hey, wait a minute. Um, it's not. It's not just that hey wait a minute is fine because they weren't. Nobody out there has asked anything that we haven't been asking ourselves for the past three years. And I think that's what that like. We went eyes wide open, like I have never worked on a project for this long, so considerately. Um. I don't mean as a complent. I just mean, like the sheer time and do deal, gents, we did to make sure that we were doing things away that we thought were was right. Um. So it's more about the criticism, a little bit of criticism, plus people really waiting for the next episode, plus people who know Richard wanting to know what's going on, plus knowing that Richard's out there and wondering what he's thinking, plus just sheer time, Like you start to run out of time. UM. So all that sort of coalesces into nothing new, nothing that I'm sure you or a million other people haven't experienced times ten. But you know, for me, this time it was me. So it's serious and it was a new phenomenon for you. Yeah, I had never had you know, I had I had a kids show like uh five years ago in Cartoon Network that was a really big hit, but it was a big hit with kids, and so like nobody knew what I was doing, Like if a twelve year old came up to me, I was the rock star, but it was really under the radar with adults. UM. And there was something really um pressureless about that UM. But this was the first time where I did something you know that I was at the center of that um that became really um intense like that and so quickly and so surprisingly. I wanna play a clip from the podcast. Here is what you told your producer Henry at the start of the project. If he said to you, like, why are you doing this? What would you say? In my perfect world of worlds, this gesture would be the entire world and all the people around him telling Richard Simmons that he should love himself and to the point where he would believe it. I know that's impossible, but it'd be great. Go ahead. Oh sorry, I thought that was more. Never my good. I just oh my god. I just put my finger up to Kati. Correctly, Katie hold on saying great. Many people have said that the grand gesture this podcast in your Search for Richard Simmons Dan wasn't all that grand. That at best it was sweet, but at worst intrusive and perhaps even self serving. Let me read to you what a critic in The New York Times said. I just say, I've never read this. People told me about. Oh please read it, but people told me about anyway. I just have one line from this article. The writer said it was morally suspect, and added is what friends do, turn their loved ones personal crisis into a fun mystery investigation and record it for a hit podcast. The hit podcast part that I love that. I love that it's assumed that I just knew this was going to be a hit, like for me. I for me, it feels like I tricked people into giving me money to make this project about somebody that I think is really great, and I it never of course I wanted it to be a big thing, but I didn't realize that it would be. The flip side of that is, I really do think that there's a real question of like, when are you supposed to start asking these questions about people that you think are great and that are important and you think might be in trouble. I mean, are we supposed to wait? Like this might sound grim? Uh, you know, are we supposed to wait till you know, in twenty years, like Richard Simmons is dead, and then you know, and then he lived the last twenty years of his life in solitude, and there's all these questions about it, and then you know, people just line up like planes landing into l a X trying to get on MSNBC to talk about it. Um and for some and for some reason, that would be the sad thing to do for me. But with all due respect, is that really your job? I mean, who made you the guy who should be responsible for tracking down Richard Simmons when maybe he just wants to be left alone. I would think that, you know, I think anybody who sort of endeavors in a project like this, there's some sort of you have to decide that this is a story worth telling. UM. You know, I also think that, um, there were real questions, and because I knew him, UM, it made me feel like I was in a position to ask these questions, whereas other people maybe couldn't. UM. Do you think you know, when you say that, people might think, well, he was really taking advantage of this friendship. Uh, they might that that would be a shame. UM, but I certainly hope they wouldn't. I mean, I do think it's worth reminding people and myself that there were real questions up to six weeks ago about what was going on with Richard Simmons. And that's not a joke, that's not hyperbole, that's not you know, making something out of nothing. That to me, knowing many many people, almost anybody I knew who knew Richard Simmons from that class and knew him for years, thought that something was wrong. And everybody, every one of those people, including me, recognized that what they felt and what they knew about Richard and what his management and his publicists were saying did not match up. They were saying, he just retired, He's fine, That's not what happened. And so it created this like there was just this gap between what the people who were around him were saying versus what the people who knew him were feeling. And I think in in in large part, we're correct at. On top of that, one of the one of the closest people to Richard before he disappeared, who I got to know through Richard, who Richard told me to trust, was telling me that something's going on here, that this is not good, that this is scary, and here the reasons. So it wasn't. This isn't. There's a part of it where we treat it really light and have fun with it, just like Richard will cry one second and laugh the next, Like I love that sort of thing. But there's another part of this where people were concerned and it bared investigating. How did you reach out to some of the other people who you feature in the podcast. The woman who Richard drove to exercise class, who is how old again? She's naughty five. She just had a ninety fifth birthday. My name is Jerry, Jerry Sinclair. Other friends call Gi yeah and and and she was so sweet and really darling in this podcast. Not many people have a fourty year relationship with their exercise instructor. Well, these easy love and I do I did become like a second mother. How did you convince her? I mean was she reticent? No, she wasn't reticent. The people around her were reticent. UM. And I think the fact that I had been taking the class and that I was a familiar face to a lot of these people, UM, and that I wasn't an outsider coming in trying to do a story and Richard Simmons, I was kind of coming from within and saying, Hey, what's going on, guys and sort of hearing what everybody was saying, really not understanding what was happening. Um. And I think there was a familiarity that UM that allowed me to talk to people. It just it made them open up a little bit more. But it was still not an easy road to ho like, people are still really protective of Richard, and people are afraid to you know, they don't want to say something that's going to be misconstrued. And so did anyone call you after you interviewed them and say I don't really feel comfortable do you mind not including that? Were you hoping that this would end with Richard being an interview with you and telling you where he'd been, what he'd been doing and what had happened, um, and the best of all possible worlds. Yeah, and the best of all possible worlds. Um. A big part of what I was hoping for was that he would feel that that he would that he would feel that a lot of people think and felt that he was isolated and alone in a way that wasn't healthy for him or for others, and that he would tell the same to them when he was there, like it's it's a big part of obesity. Is like when we talked about in the podcast, is is you isolate yourself, um, and it's unhealthy and you have to find people you trust. And I you know, Misca supposedly is at his fighting weight. Detective Becker tells me that, Yeah, it was just great, It's amazing. Um. But what I was hoping was that if he wasn't in a good way, that he would feel that that love and he would feel that understanding and people respecting the impact he's made on them, and that would have an impact. I'm sure. So in a way, you tried to deliver a love letter, not a voyeuristic invasion of privacy. No, I mean I would try to do a love letter. I also tried to tell a really compelling story. UM. I also tried to tell the story of you know, the story of Richard Simmons is an incredible one that people forgot absolutely. I will say in terms of voyers UM. I don't mean this to sound coy, but there's a ton of stuff that we didn't put in there, like stuff that people that he would never want anybody talking about. Um. And and so it wasn't about digging up dirt and putting it out there like I I we that's not what this was at all. Like if if we wanted to do voyeuristic, that would have been super easy, and that's not I hope that's not what we did. Well. It's interesting because some of the things that you anticipated would be included in the sixth episode, uh, they weren't. And you explain at the beginning that if people were wondering what was left out, it included a boom box and a letter. You're gills at gift wrapping and you being way too deep into the story, and you say to the listeners, if you ever wonder what what happened and what we kept out, asked me, and I'll tell you so Dan, why did you take things out? What were they? They were? Um? And I do think that's definitely part of the um challenge of doing something in real time, like you know, episode five comes out and you're not quite sure what episodes ticks is going to be because it's happening, like the phone's ringing and people are giving you information that you feel like it's important. And um. There were two things that we were going to put in there. UM. There was one where UM, where I wanted to make sure that Richard was hearing the podcast because that was a big part of this. And literally, like sometimes I think about Richard Simmons like my grandmother, like I'm not quite sure if he knows how the internet works type thing. Um. And so it was literally just putting what we had done into a boom box and putting on his front on a stoop. I guess if you can call a mansion. I don't know if a mansion has a stoop, um, but from steps, yeah, exactly, uh and to uh and to get his reaction and so that we would know that he would had heard it. The other thing that was in there UM was something about to the entilator characters Morrow and Teresa. UM and basically, gosh, how do I say this without um, without telling you, because the whole point of not putting in there was to not tell people. UM. I think yeah, the reasoning was it was it was UM. It turned out to be. My my sense is that what we were going to put in there in wretched after talking to people, because after the podcast came out, a lot more people started talking to us, UM, a lot more people who were close to Richard. We're giving us there two cents in a really good way. UM. And we kind of realized that the stuff that we thought was important uh and pertain to Richard, it was less about Richard and it was more about Morrow and Teresa. UH. And so it was drama and it was good tape. UM. But in the end, the story that we really wanted to tell was the story about Richard. And as we got closer to the end, we realized, you know what, that's just not it's just bringing up stuff that doesn't affect Richard at all. I think it's just about them. I will say that we were over I think there's lesson learned in terms of being over zealous with a tease. Don't tease what you can't deliver, Dan, I know I under promise and over deliver, I know for sure. Well I have to ask you though, I have to ask you about the boom box. Can you tell me it? Oh? What happened? Yeah? Yeah, what happened? I know you put it there, but what happened? Okay? So did you hear the tease? Yeah? Okay, so yeah, yeah, okay, So here's what happened. It's gonna sound really small, um, but it was kind of incredible. So what happened is we put it down. Um. It had four balloons on it and um, and it was a boom box with the podcast in it. And I put it his front door or over the fence. Um, which is super easy to do, um because it's right there in the street. And then we left and as we're driving away, we saw Trace, so the housekeeper come pick it up. So we're like, great, mission accomplished. He's gonna get it. And inside was a note saying we moved back tomorrow at nine o'clock. If you want to talk to me, I don't know if you're getting into my messages. I don't know if it's getting through through Trace. I don't know if it's getting through your manager. If if we'll come back at out o'clock tomorrow and we'll wait ten minutes um. If um, if you come out, then then we'll be waiting for you. We could talk. If not, well this is it. That's it, we're done. Um. And he didn't come out. Um, and a bird shit on me and like I started raining. Yeah totally. Oh the gods were literally like enough to burs key. Um all really like benign stuff like just like so why not include that because it wasn't important. It seemed silly compared to what really happened. Is that ultimately the person that we got closer to Richard than we thought we would, which was a manager and who shut me down over and over and who and he's known Richard for thirty years. Um. And then he decided to talk to me and gave me a quiet, an extentive interview and said something really, I mean, he speaks for Richard in in every way. And he said some things that were really surprising and really moving, and it became, um, a more real story and a sadder story. Um that made the other stuff feel unimportant. Look, we all we all know that this is you know, a very emotional, um, empathetic, sympathetic, compassionate person. I think anybody that has those traits over a long period of time. Yeah, I think goodbyes are tough. Yeah, most people want you know, you know, want want to want that last bow. Not everybody. Are you worried that Richard is upset with you for doing this? And I guess he is, or you've gotten the vibe that he is or not. Um, I don't know, I mean haven't but no, but through his representatives and his avoidance of of you, you know, he's just not that into you, Dan. Apparently it makes me clear it's not hard to avoid somebody when they're not I mean, he is an isolated person. He is in his home, does not speak, he's not he's he's isolating himself. So it's not like we weren't throwing rocks at his window. It's just saying, Richard, come out like that is not anywhere. But obviously you reached out repeatedly to all his his representatives, and you know clearly he knew that that's what you ultimately wanted. Look, if anybody had, if anybody has a problem with me calling his publicist a couple too many times, like that is the least of our worries here, you know, But I mean he was clearly avoiding you. I guess is the bottom certain? And are you worried that he is going to be like Dan, get off my back, lead me alone? Why are you doing this? Why are you capitalizing on our relationship? I don't want I want to be alone. I don't want this kind of attention. I'm pissed. It's possible, for sure. I don't know. He hasn't told me. I think it's not so much what I did. I think it's the way other people reacted to it, and so the press that follows, so now you know, like I just saw People magazine. There's a picture of his housekeeper like taking out the recycling, like literally people camped out. Are you sorry that you kind of started that? I am sorry for any negatives because I don't. I really like him. I think he's really special and I know he's a really sensitive guy. And but am I do I am? I really proud of it? Yeah? And do? I think it's impacted a lot of people. And I think I think to remind people about empathy at a time when studies show that empathy is at an all time low. I'm sure at an all tie exactly, at an all time low. Like it's a real thing, and so to remind people of the specialness of that, like I'm really proud of that, and I think it's had an impact. Are you convinced that Richard is Okay? I'm as convinced as I can be. I mean, I do know that his his manager, and I do think his housekeeper, I do think they love him very much, and um and this is you know, and I think that the stories are aligning now, like what his what the people around him are saying, is matching up to reality now, whereas before it wasn't, and it was very scary for a lot of people. You can you just can't overstate the real concerns and valid concerns that all the people around Richard Simmons had, especially when someone does such a one eight right, not only do they do. It's not like George Clooney decided he was going to go to Lake Como, you know, and take a couple of years off. He was the most accessible celebrity on the planet. He would wait at his window and run outside multiple times a day and talk to people and tour vans driving by and take pictures them. He wouldn't invite them into his house and give him stuff. And so I'm not saying he because he was so accessible before that he that he doesn't deserve privacy now, but it absolutely means that to switch like that on a day, UM is concerning at the very least, Where do you go from here? Dan? Here, You've got this podcast that's creating really a huge amount of buzz, a lot of controversy. It's really prompting Richard to be on the cover of People magazine. I mean, this is probably much bigger than you ever anticipated. So what are your plans for the future? Um, I don't know. I literally just finished the first I mean, I have a couple of things that I'm cooking up, but I mean hopefully it'll be Um, can you tell us what you're cooking up? Give it, give us a little bit of an idea. Why not? Yeah, I'm working, Well, give me a scoop here, Dan, It's not it's gonna sound really boring compared to this one. I'm working on a documentary idea about the Minnesota State Fair, uh and all the different people that coalesced on this thing that started a fifty years ago as for you know, if you're a way for farmers to get together, and now it's literally a crossroads of of different cultures and issues in the state and larger issues and plus you know, like butter sculptures. I was going to say, a big sea of humanity and a lot of funnel cakes. Yeah, I want to come back like I'll need Richard more than a lot of corn dogs. That sounds interesting. That's a good sign for sure. Dan to Bersky, thank you for talking to me, and I think your listeners will be interested in hearing your views on all this because this is a little more unfiltered and it's really coming from your heart. Thank you. Thanks to Dan to Pursky, First Look Media, and Stitcher for making this possible. I really enjoyed going behind the scenes of this podcast, and a big thank you to my team at Erewolf and mid Roll as well. Thanks to Gianna Palmer for producing and to Gared O'Connell mixing and engineering. Thanks also to our social media may event we like that because it's alliterative, Alison Bresnik, and to Emily Beana for her part in producing this show. Also a big thank you to Chris Bannon and Mark Phillips. Thank you as always for our Ruthie theme music. Bryan Goldsmith, Mitch s Emil and I are executive producers of this podcast. And lastly, if you came here because you're missing Richard Simmons fan and you liked what you heard, you might like other episodes of our podcast. We hope so like the one where Alec Baldwin shared what it's like to perform as President Trump on SNL, or when Samantha b gave her take on being the only woman in Late Night. Recently, I got Tony Robbins explanation of how President Trump's leadership style compares to President Obama's. Interesting right, So if you like what you've heard, please subscribe to my podcast on iTunes just search Katie Couric. Very creative, I know,