It's Emmy season and on this bonus episode of Next Question with Katie Couric, Katie shares “The Handmaid's Tale” cast and creators panel she hosted for awards consideration. The dystopian Hulu drama just wrapped its dramatic, twist-heavy and pandemic-filmed fourth season, so be forewarned, there are spoilers ahead! There are so many talented people behind the ensemble show that the panel was split into two: the residents of Gilead and the refugees in Canada.
The episode begins in Gilead with, in order of appearance, executive producer and showrunner Bruce Miller, Joseph Fiennes (Commander Fred Waterford), Yvonne Strahovski (Serena Joy Waterford), executive producer, director and star Elizabeth Moss (June Osborne/Offred/Ofjoseph), Madeline Brewer (Janine Lindo/Ofwarren/Ofhoward), Ann Dowd (Aunt Lydia Clements), Bradley Whitford (Commander Joseph Lawrence), McKenna Grace (Esther Keyes), and Max Minghella (Commander Nick Blaine). In the second half of the episode, Katie talks with the refugees in Canada including executive producer Warren Littlefield, Bruce Miller, Elizabeth Moss, O.T. Fagbenle (Luke Bankole), Alexis Bledel (Dr. Emily Malek), Samira Wiley (Moira Strand), Sam Jaeger (Mark Tuello), and Amanda Brugel (Rita Blue).
This interview was organized by Hulu for its Television Academy FYC event for The Handmaid’s Tale. We are sharing a lightly edited version of the conversation.
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I'm really happy to be moderating this for your consideration panel with some of the extraordinary people involved in The Handmaid's Tale. I'm a ginormous fan of the show, and so this is a real thrill for me, and I thought we'd start this conversation sort of where the end of season four ends up, where uh, you know, Fred and Serena asked June for forgiveness and and Bruce, did you imagine this turn of events when you were thinking about the show, you know, and watching the evolution of the storyline and these characters. Did did you kind of predict that this would happen or how did how did that work for you? Uh? Well, I think you know, the show is based on how June feels genuinely versus how she's allowed to express herself. Um. So we know how she feels about these people. Um. And we know if ever, given freedom to express herself, how she would express herself. UM. So I think there's an inevitability about it. Um, whether it's expressed or unexpressed. What this show is about is her bringing these people to terms with what they've done. Whether she gets the chance to do it or not is the question. But that building up that argument in your head saying this is why they're wrong and I'm right, and is what the show is about. So I think that whether or not we get their characterized or story wise, it was always the clash that was, you know, the clash of worldviews that the build show has been built and Joe, where you were surprised that your character had this redemptive arc um and and how did you feel when you saw how how the commander evolved? Well, I um, I love the idea that he goes through the journey um and ends in a place of redemption seemingly um and how paradoxical that he might get to that place of clarity, even if it's momentarily, and have it snatched away somewhat in the finale. But it was it was lovely for him to come face to face and I so enjoyed that scene with Lizzie where he he apologizes, you know, and there are parts of that apology which are genuine, and that's parts of Fred old Fred, but there's still parts of the sort of predator inside all of that apology as well, and sort of reclaiming the narrative in his own predatory fashion. But it was lovely to go on that journey, and the season is really about that but relinquishing and reflecting. Um, but can can this character really change his spots? I don't know, But but he came close, which was really lovely to be invited down that road. What about for you, Yvonne, did you envision sort of what that moment would be like for serena kind of? Although I don't just because she's, you know, having this moment with June, I don't necessarily believe that she has come full circle, you know. I think she's just so like she just goes from moment to moment kind of figuring out what's going to be the most ideal situation for me right now. And her ideal situation is that she doesn't want to have the stress and the regrets or any kind of remorse of what she's been doing with June this whole time, I feel like, and so what's convenient for her is to apologize and beg for forgiveness. And although I do think there is like a huge element of truth in it, I don't know that it comes from that genuine place of I genuinely feel horrible for what I did. I think it's more I just need you to forgive me so I can have a comfortable pregnancy, you know what I mean. So it's it's self serving. Yeah, I kind of feel that way. I don't know i'd be interested to hear um with some versus rand about that, but that that's that's how I felt. Bruce, do you want to chime in? Uh? Well, I think, um, people don't change very much or very easily. And I think people change quickly and easily on television. But what I says is exactly right, you know. Uh, it's in the moment. We make lots of decisions that we say lots of things, but as humans, we don't change that quickly. And and I think the show is frustrating in the same way that people in our lives are frustrating that they don't change quickly enough um, and that more people don't get out of North Korea. But those things are complicated parts of the real world. And as much as we'd like Lawrence and and you know the characters that that seem to be on an edge, Lawrence, Lydia and On or everybody, I guess Joe, you want them to pick the good side and get toss away the bad side, But there is no such thing, and it doesn't happen, and they are who they are. And and you know, I don't know very many people who have, you know, truly had the kind of regret in their life for the things that these people have done. I don't know that there's enough regret muster so and and Lizzie, I think, I don't know. There was a scene I wish I had written down what you said about what had been taken away and the power of men and sort of systemic issues with gender and sexism. I don't know that really resonated with me. Did that? Are you in the middle of sometimes saying your lines and thinking, yes, I I feel what June feels about the state of the world. Yeah, all the time, all the time, whether or even just um you know, sometimes globally, but also sometimes just on a on a personal level. You know, she's such a personal character to me, Um, and I've put so much of myself into her. And at this point, it is a great thing that happens when you're on a show for a while, which is the relationship between you and the writers and the showrunner becomes very fluid, and you know, at first you're doing what they're writing, and then they're sort of writing to what you're doing, and it kind of goes back and forth in this in this wonderful way. Um all the time, all the time, And sometimes other characters too, will say things that I, uh, that really really resonate with me. Um, you know, Lawrence, often when you're speaking about June, it resonates with me. I learned a lot about June from the other characters, whether I'm in the scene or not. Madeline, let me ask you about Janine, because, um, she has quite an adventure in this this season, and we learn a lot more about her backstory, which I really appreciated and enjoyed, and I'm curious if you did as well, and how it impacted the way you aid her from that moment on, because I who knew. Yeah, I mean, I tried for so long for the first three seasons really to not make any real decisions about who I thought Janine was, just because I knew that eventually we would find out, and I wanted to be able to just like soak up anything that Bruce or you know, j C who who had written the episode. I wanted to just kind of fully embrace that. And Uh, I was really glad and very very proud to be able to tell this kind of story, the storyline for Janine, our relationship, the relationship between June and Janine and just everything. It just colored so many things for me, Um to get this backstory and that, you know, the confrontation between June and Janine, everything just kind of became a little brighter to me. Um about Janine, She's always been like a big part of my life and of my heart, and she just like she's just a tattooed in there now really, especially after this Um doing that episode and episode five as well. It's interesting, Bruce, how you the writers and you and everyone who's putting this together, how you figure out when you tell a backstory of a character. I know, I really enjoyed hearing more about Serena and what she was like before Gill Lead became Gile Lead. And how do you determine who's past or whose history you're going to mind? And and and why I think we'd mind everybody's if we had the time. I mean, you know, they're all extraordinary, extraordinary actors, and we're curious about their backstories. Um, And I think that Maddie as much as she was trying not to decide. As Lizzie was saying, Maddie was telling us that all the writers what Janine's backstory was over the last three years slowly, um so she was making decisions. But you know, I think all the back stories and from the response from the audience are super appealing and satisfying. I just wanted to say this year, in particular, under COVID, Maddie talks about that that episode like it's a normal episode. That episode was incredibly difficult under COVID, and the nine scenes we had of her in the past ended up being three scenes and everything changed all the time, and she was an absolute professional and also managed to get as much out of the story as we would have gotten in the longer version in the shorter version. And that's a testament to her and Christina the director and everybody else. Uh it was. It's a remarkable performance under under normal circumstances. It's a mark this year. It's breathtaking what she was able to do. So in awe of that, you're like, truth, my turn, hunt Well, and I want to talk to you about aunt Lydia because there's a little crack in Gilead for finally, for her, can you talk about the evolution of her character? And uh, sort of the the reason behind her increased humanity in this season, if you could call it that, Well, love is love, isn't it? And she loves Janine and she loves June. And as much as she likes to put it in any other fashion she possibly can, the truth of the matter is relationships are profoundly important to her. So I think if love creeps its way in walls will begin to crumble, whether she would like them to or not. And what to me was astonishing about the season for Lydia, and I this to the writers, and I give this to the other actors and to Elizabeth directing, is that things that utterly surprised me, that took me totally off card in the way they appeared in the scene, which is to say from Lydia, which I didn't have my hand on, because season four you can take your hand off because by now you know her, she knows you, and on the good day she's going to talk to you and say, don't worry about it, I've got it. And that's what happened season four for me and working with Elizabeth who knows her well, and I know her well and I love her and she loves me. Sorry to turn this into it so proper, but the point I'm making something happens there and that's trust and then you know, okay, let's drop the barriers and get it done. That's what thrilled me is to let her, let her come up on her own and see where she goes. So that just knocked me out, very grateful for Wow, Lizzy, would you like to comment on that? Sorry, good, no pressure, goll none of all. No. I mean, I had this incredible gift with directing, which was working with these actors, and it truly is a kind of extraordinary when you work with people for three years and a certain amount of episodes and then you put on a different hat and all of a sudden, it was just I had an entirely new appreciation for how incredibly gifted they all are and the trust that they that they gave me as a director, especially on my first time out in episode three. I'll never forget um the support they gave me. I'll never forget. And to tow End's point, you know, I've seen not just what you see in the episode on on Hulu. But I've seen all of the takes that they do before that, I've seen all the other things they've tried. I've seen all of the things that worked and didn't work, and we've had all these conversations. So I did feel like there was an element of knowing them as not just their characters but as actors that was helpful to us in our in our kind of new relationship. Bradley, do you feel I mean, I'm curious about You've done a lot of different shows, and is there something unique about this project for you and about this group of people? And um, I don't know how uh serendipitous. Everything seems to have been with a lot of hard work of course behind the scenes. But I wonder if you could describe for me the specialness of this this for you, Well, I feel like an obnoxiously lucky actor who's had some wonderful experiences, But there is absolutely something unique to me about you know, it's always alchemy and the feeling on the set. Uh, it's it's it's a weirdly uh loving, gentle, humorous uh set uh. And I think that tone is set by Lizzie, who, while she does Sophie's choice the series is maybe the least pretentious actor I've ever worked with. There is you know, we're aware, unfortunately that we're we're doing a show, um about a worst case scenario, about something that is all too familiar to us. Now. I keep this is another one of those moments, um, where I think as a country and all across the world, we're being reminded that uh, misogyny, racism, sexism, fascism. They're always in the next room doing push ups and UM. To be able to be part of a show that is uh, that is saying something on top of it being this kind of extraordinary for me, a very lucky person creative uh experience. There there is uh I know doing stuff with with Lizzie, which is an extraordinary thing, uh, given the fact that I met her when when she was seventeen. Um, there's on this show the takes that work. Uh you you and I felt this with Anne too. It's like you get surprised, you're you're you're surprised by what's happening, and it's a it's a function of the writing. I also love what what Anne was saying, combined with with what what Bruce is saying in a lesser show, people have epiphanies and become heroes. Uh, that's an insult to what a character like June is up against. And what Anne just said I think is really true is that I start feeling this this, this this kind of love, uh, you know, for for for aunt Lydia, who I begin to feel to understand absolutely for June in a way that mirrors what I feel. Um about working with Lizzie again after all these years. Um. Some reporters said, you know, what does Lawrence feel about her? And I'm like, he loves her, he doesn't know, but she's leading him. He doesn't even know it. Um, But I realized I feel about June. H Lawrence feels about June the way I feel about Lizzie. It's it's like it's it's the way I feel about my grown up children. It's like, oh my god, I can't believe what you became. And and you know you're I watched that episode. I was. I texted Lizzie. I said, okay, so you can direct to like what's next the fucking cello? I mean, it was, it was, it was incredible. So that but there's something about this show that I love that Anne was talking about, which is uh, somewhere in the solution to these intractable problems, humanity and love in the darkest of circumstances can shine through. We'll be right back, McKenna. I mean, first of all, high here you are with this extraordinary group of actors, and um, how old are you McKenna? Um, I'll be fifteen in June? Holy cow? Okay, So what can you describe what it was like for you? First of all, your character is so fascinating to me, but just the very idea of coming into this group of professionals as of almost fifteen year old, right, can you can you share with us, uh, just what this experience has been like for you? Well, I am new here. It's it's interesting. I haven't really had a chance to talk to most of the people here yet, so it's it's definitely a little bit scary because in preparing for the role, I've I've bench watched Handmaids and there's not one bad actor on the show. So I did not want to be the person to break that perfect track record. It's just it's really been a great experience to be able to be part of a show that speaks out about so many topics and something that reaches such a wide audience, especially getting able being able to work with Ms Lizzie as a director. That was an incredible experience. She's I can I put it into wards. It was absolutely magnificent. But it's been something that I really hope that I get to come back to and it's I've loved it. And when you when you when you set it, you know your character is interesting because she's braddy and brave at the same time. And um, I how did you wrap your head around kind of showing the many sides of her? Well, like you said, she is really fascinating, And I think it's less um bratty. It's just more of this. It's figuring out how to mix uh, how mature and like she is the mistress of this household, but at the end of the day, she is still unabused young lady. It's it's trying to figure out how to mix together her immaturity and her being the brave young gillyandsa briber that she is, um it and prepare. I did watch a lot of um interviews with young women who had been abused or had gone through situations like Um, she did, so I I wanted to make sure that I accurately betrayed her because there is no one way to play um Mrs Keith to play her abuse, and I just wanted to make sure that I definitely did it right, so to say at fifteen, I'm pretty blown away by you right now, and Bruce, you need to keep her around. And I think regardless, you have an incredible future ahead of you. Maybe you could like anchor a newscast. I don't know, but you're acting was phenomenal and you were obviously wise beyond your years. Max. I haven't forgotten about you, Kai Max. You know, I think probably with with your character, that again must have been a real challenge because you had to incorporate almost two different people, um in in your role, staying in Giliad and yet wanting the best for June and also having this streak of humanity. Um well, I love doing the season. I think we we all did. Um. There was so much more to explore with all these characters. And Nick can be very opaque, right, Um he's so spy on a spy on spy and at the same time I see him through rose tinted lenses and have always been quietly hoping that his moral compasses in the right place, and I was very relieved this year. The True North seems to be heading in the right direction. And just to echo what everyone's been saying, I think, you know, getting to work with Lizzie as a filmmaker pushed all of us, you know, I think it's the best work I've done on the show, with a lot of people's best work's done on the show. She she had a way of sort of extracting something from us that was really exciting and it was a joy to do it. Joe, I, I want to have you talk a little bit about playing someone and maybe Van you could chine in on someone who was just so awful and so evil. And I'm sure are we talking about the same character. I'm not sure, And I don't know. Does that start to kind of permeate your your psyche a little bit? And um, you know, just compared to many of your other roles that you've you know, you're such a distinguished actor. What has been like too to play someone, um, someone like this who completely has lost his humanity along the way. Well, I feel sometimes I've been cast this sort of dashing, um leading guy, and I feel in some ways I feel like, um, a character actor trapped in a leading man's body. And so this this character allows me to sort of get into an area I wouldn't normally be cast in. UM. So i've I've relished that, UM, but I don't. I haven't relished as people might relish playing nasty people. I haven't relished actually that part of his psyche because it's something that I'm reminded of when I come offset, I read an article, I hear something has happened along the lines that Fred Waterford might do. And so I just feel like in the world of Outward and Bruce and Dystopia, UM, I don't feel and I've ever really escaped it, and especially as I have two young daughters and an amazing wife, and the show has definitely refocused and recalibrated my appreciation of the psyche of women and how important they are in my life, and so playing someone like Fred, you know, I feel, I feel there's a big part of me feels kind of a shame that this is what I might have to show my daughters one day because it is their dad, but he's and it's not their dad, but but there are themes that are so pervasive, sadly within our society and continue to be so. And so I found I found that actually playing it and stepping back into the real world and sort of seeing Fred on the front pages of a news article or something in some way, shape or form in some industry and some business elsewhere, that there's sort of the awfulness of patriarchy, the awfulness of the pathetic nous of of um, of patriarchy really at its words, the michot misogyny and and um. So it's been difficult, yeah, and I can't wait to shake off that itchy beard because he's that's a synonymous with Fred and so um. Yeah, it is weird and tough and um and ugly and the tentacles of the man are pervasive. But it sounds like it's changed your not not changed your personal behavior. I think that's a little extreme, but it's made to recognize things that have resulted in a deeper, more meaningful, and more enlightened relationship with the women in your life. Absolutely, I mean it's pulped me um and and it's it's the narrative has kept me suspended in a way where I'm deeply reflective. UM. Yeah, daily and Evan. I you know, Serena is so fascinating to me because she does seem to um vacilate. I mean, not not a ton, but you do see these glimmers of hope. And I'm always thinking, Uh, you know, Serena, You've got it in you. And I'm curious what it what it's been like for you to play someone who's so complicated and misguided and honestly so lost at certain moments in her life. Yeah, I think UM I somewhat echo what Joe was saying that it I think at first it was really confronting UM to play someone so awful and and I think especially as an actress, as a as a female, UM, I don't know that you ever really expect to play UM the role of the rapist, and not that I'm I am the actual physical rapist. Certainly, you know the characters is there and perpetuating the situation obviously, So it is that part of it is really kind of confronting, and and I think for the first season it was very it took a little while to sort of get used to UM, you know, like screaming at Lizzie and scenes or UM just being awful in general in scenes. But but now that I'm used to it, um, I just love getting into it. I mean, this is a role, uh that is one of my most favorite things that I've ever done. It is so intricate and complex, and I'm so grateful to be the person that gets to play Serena. It is just it is just an endless amount of possibilities on set and when we get to play these characters, and I know everyone feels the same way with the words that we get to speak and the writing and um, and the and the actors and all of all of the people we get to work with. The possibilities are just endless, and it's just so great to be able to sink my teeth into this role that I mean can really only be described as epically juicy, you know, as a performer, as an actor. And there's something fascinating about exploring female misogyny too, isn't there? Yeah, and and and people don't want to talk about, but it very much exists in the culture one thousand percent and what we've been conditioned to as as women, Um, you know, even in day life, even as a mother, in my postal life, I experienced sort of social misogynistic conditioning that that I've noticed in women that they don't necessarily know that they're they're doing, but they're doing it. And yeah, it's it's really fascinating to explore. You know, everyone was waiting, including myself, with bated breath for this season, and I'm curious to Warren about the challenges that were posed by the pandemic when it came to actually bringing this to Fruition. Well, there are a lot of challenges. Um. First and foremost, we needed to create a safe environment for this cast and our crew. Otherwise we knew they'd leave, they wouldn't stay and work if the environment wasn't safe. So six months of planning, hundreds of zooms, medical consultants that we're taking us through all of the precautions. We needed to follow a forty page protocol document that we needed to execute millions of dollars um and um, and I think uniquely year four of Handmade's Tale, we were nomadic in our storytelling, so we couldn't go to one stage, create a bubble and just say that's it, that's how we're going to function, because literally it's a road show. This year, there is no home base. We're out there, um telling this story, and so that was particularly demanding. When it's all said and done, UM, year four over twenty seven thousand COVID tests, eleven positives and none of those were connected. Those were all individual. So what Bruce and I like to say is last year, where was the safest place on the planet if you were working on the handmade style? Bruce, did you have to alter any of the storylines given sort of the restrictions that you were dealing with in the protocols that you had to follow? Oh? Absolutely, I think we Um, there was just the practical aspect. The first practical aspect was creating a safe environment, and that really required us to make some choices right at the beginning. I mean, it's a question of how many people you have, how many people you are, you know, the normal amount of people a camera versus reduced number. But uh, you know, all of these people on this panel went to herculean efforts to just to get there. Um. You know, for Sam to work one day, it's two weeks of quarantine on either side. Um, So he gave us a month to work for four hours and everybody did so. Yes, the story changed, and these guys took on a lot more they had. They had to fill in scenes that we didn't exist emotionally because we were we didn't have Zallye Ashton to film the scenes we needed with Samira to lead up to the other scenes because the math just didn't work out. She couldn't come, So we rewrote a lot um and these all of these people were so flexible and found ways to make the story points work even when we you know, really didn't have the location or humans beings around that we could use in the set. They really made it come alive. So it was a remarkable year in terms of flexibility. But me being flexible is easy. These guys being flexible is much much much harder. So they were amazing. Elizabeth, I wanted to ask you, um and of course everyone here who had to get in front of the camera, how um I mean, you all render such extraordinary performances, each and every one of you, But to be able to do it and to summon the emotion uh without in a less than linear way, given the kinds of things that you had to do to accommodate, how difficult was that for you all to kind of have to do things herky jerky uh and accommodate sort of all the restrictions that came with this pandemic. UM. I think I kind of echo what Bruce said in UM that it's my job. I mean, it's our job to figure out how to tell a story UM in the way that production is asking us to tell it. UM. And we did, have, of course, more challenges and more restrictions and more things to to think about. But once we established, I think, as as a production and as producers, that we were going to be an safe environment, we were able to communicate that to everybody, to the cast and crew, and it honestly felt like we came together in a closer and stronger and more collaborative way than ever. I think the time apart the time at home, the time not working and not acting and not getting to do what we love for six months, I know, I know, at least I can speak for myself, it made me miss it and it made me appreciate it all the much more and appreciate the familial aspects as well of just being on a set. And I think we as actors actually all kind of became closer friends this year. Uh. You know, I got to work with actors that I don't usually get to work with and spend time with them, and and I think we just, you know, the crew just kind of banded around us, and everyone wanted to be there, and everyone was so grateful to be able to be back at work and back at work on something that we're so proud of. UM. So, I guess it didn't feel as much of um as a challenger or something negative. It felt like a very positive experience. Lizzie, what about finally getting out of Gillyad? Of course June does against her wishes, but as a viewer, I was grateful because I don't think I would have been able to handle that if you hadn't finally been able to escape, but it did. It was so interesting how you all were able to I think deal with June's trauma, and trauma is such an important, I think theme of this season. Yeah, I think it was. It was really important to us. I'm glad you are talking about it because it was really important to us to hold on to that pretty tightly. Um. You know, I think there's a version that a show could do that would be very different from from what we did, and in uh, particularly seven eight nine and ten. And it was really really important for me too to be able to accurately portray what that experience would be like for her coming out of what she comes out of that, She's not going to have a perfect relationship with her husband, with her friends, you know, with people who are trying to help her. It's not going to be easy and um, and she's never going to be the same. And and that story was told beautifully in the writing as well. You know, we always just you know, we end up following these beautiful maps. Um. But it was it was very very important to us and and for me personally, it was the back half of the season was was so cool because I got to work with these actors that are that are all here, uh you know, I got to work with sam I got to I got to reunite with with Luke and and have all of this incredible material that we had. I had scenes with Samara and Alexis and Amanda, and it was like it was it was like I had all this new material to play to speak to your point about is there more story to tell? I had all this new this new stuff. I had all these new scenes, these new relationships to explore. Um, it was fantastic and O T I think that, you know, I think that people watching really really felt for you, because I think that trauma affects not only the person who's endured trauma, but of course the people around that individual, and the feeling of helplessness and confusion and having your partner lose a piece of herself. Talk to us about some of the challenges a plane Luke this season, you know, and all the anticipation and then all the expectations that aren't met. Yeah, I mean, to be honest, it wasn't really that challenging to the extent to which and the writing is so good, it's so there, and of course Lizzie is always just so genius that you just kind of like stand opposite her and like trying to reflect back some on what you're getting. So so so like on an artistic level, that's just like the fun of it, you know, but I think from a character level, you know, Luke for three years has had this pentop need to be connected to his daughter, connected to his wife, and has been separated. Like I say, it happens to a lot of refugee people that separated from their families, and so it's really challenging for him to get this reunion but yet they're not yet still connected and for him to try and bridge that gap and and the ways that they fail. I think it was really well written, and so yeah, it was. It was exciting to do as an actor, but I guess tough for Paul. Look, I'm a little freaked out to hear you speak ot. I'm not gonna why. I love it. Every time I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. And in Pruce when when you you know, I do. I wish that we had some of the writers because the writing is I mean, every aspect of the show is phenomenal, the cinematography, the the acting, of course, but the writing. And did you consult people who are experts on trauma and on kind of what this experience might be like or did the writer's room to talk to some of those folks. Absolutely, I mean we rely on experts a lot, so uh. We certainly brought a ton of people in from the u n They've been very helpful. The u n h c R has been helpful, the Criminal Court, International Criminal Court has been helpful. But yeah, I mean I think that the whole point of the show, the whole point of this if is if you're going to show trauma, you want to show a specific experience of trauma and recovery from trauma, not a generalized one. And what these guys have done Samira, Alexis, Amanda and O T. They've shown you what it's like to recover from trauma in Gilead adam Gilead into Toronto. They've all had very very different experiences. And so we've built this skeleton of possible routes and then you dropped June into it and she has her own specific experience. And I think what we're trying to say is there is no trauma throws a bomb into your life and it explodes and it changes everything, and there's no road map that everybody is following. And on our show, we have this extraordinary collection of actors and we've seen them all go through it and the messages. Everybody's journey through this is absolutely different, and some are health some seem healthier from the outside, and some seemless healthy from the outside. But everybody has an individual journey through trauma. And and not only does Luke and does O T. S character Luke have to kind of navigate that but Alexis you do as well, not only personally, but in terms of your relationship with June. And and of course you know the Moura and Emily are both i think kind of conflicted about their relationship with June, and I'm curious to Alexis, how, how why that was so important to show this interplay to be problematic in many ways, and and for your character to show how how June had been damaged as well and the impact it had on her friendships, not simply her marriage. Yeah. I think in the scene where Moira and Um Emily talk about June's rescuing all the children and how it left you know, so much to figure out, and how they both individually had a little bit of anger toward her, it's not really what you expect them to reveal in that moment. They're essentially trying to fill out her UM see her plan through what kind of do the next step of what she of what she did um placing all the children in homes. But it shows that, you know, it's a very complicated UM experience, Even like supporting one another through their recovery from trauma, it's so multilayered and different for each person. So as those women interact and try to support each other, all kinds of emotions come up and it's really messy and um and as Moira says, even though you know she feels angry towards June, she loves her, you know, and she she supports her and she wants to see her back. And then and then they do get her back, and um, and that's everything because it brings up everything and all these women, um that to have her back, because um, each one has triggered in a different way, and it just brings the story to this incredible culmination. And in fact, these reunion scenes are so so moving and gratifying for someone who's been watching this from the very beginning. You know, you're so invested in these characters and you're so hoping that they will have these reunions. And Samir, was it, uh? You know, it's just pack such an emotional punch And what was that for you to to come back to the character of June, someone that you haven't seen for so long? And did you all have to get back into an acting groove? Uh? Because as as Lizzie just said, you all really didn't do much work together for for quite a while between seasons. It was interesting to me, I think this season to see the parallels between relationship and Samira and Lizzie's relationship. Uh, June, I mean like June is so I was so Samia was excited to read that this was going to happen. And I was so excited, number one, to as even as a fan, even to think about fans watching the show to finally see this, this thing that we have been waiting for for so long. But also I Samara was so excited to be back on screen with Lizzie. I not wait. I remember those very that very first season and then those very first episode had with Lizzie and how electric it felt for me and how fulfilled I felt as an actor to be on screen with someone like Lizzie and like the things that she brings out I feel like in me as an actor. Um, it's really really really exciting to be on screen and to have that that sort of sort of feels like I feel like Lizzie has said this before, like a tennis match almost that um that I feel like I'm just trying to give her the ball back as strong as she gives it to me. But yeah, I just I'm I'm very, very very happy that we finally got It's so satisfying, Um, to finally touch her, to not talk about June so much, but to actually have her in front of me was indescribable. Damn. I'm just curious that you know, here you you you you become a part of the show that is so established, and you're this brand new character is kind of a psychological mediator taking it all in. You're you're a bit of an enigma. I think throughout you've become less so I think as the season goes on. But what was it like just jumping into this group and and being part of what I'm sure felt like a family and what just what was it like for you to be a part of this show? Well, my first job is, you know, as a new cog, is to not break the machine because it's so well oiled. And you know, these actors in the writing, Um, you know, it was such an honor this year to be outside of just being with the Waterford's all the time, who are have some problems, um, you see, and you know it's such it I Um, I enjoy watching these actors in every facet as a fan and to work with them you know, you just you know, if I'm going to be I was telling Warren and Amanda, if I'm gonna be quarantined anywhere. Um, it's good to be quarantined and to come out of it with a show like a handmade's Tale and feel like, well, that was time well spent. You know. Always, if I'm going to be away from my family, I'm glad it's with people as talented as this. So talk a little bit about the requirements for playing Mark. He had to kind of not reveal very much of himself and you have a very you guys are all actors, so I don't really have eaten the terminology for this, but a very lying It's called okay, come on now, internalized or internal character and um. And I'm just curious about what it was like playing this character who you can tell Serena is getting under his skin a little bit, but you can't really read him totally, at least in many of the episodes. Yeah, I think one of the mysteries watching the show is, you know, trying to figure out where he stands. And I think where he stands is he's just trying to do what's best for um, for America. For what's left of America, and so unfortunately that makes him extremely diplomatic, so you can't really quite tell what he's He's hard to read. Yeah, he's hard to read. Um. But you know, if anybody can break somebody down, it's uh, it's it's Junas. So thankfully we get by the end of the season there's someone who's going to get under his skin. I think you swear for the first time, don't you swear? That's right, Mark swear from the very first time, that's right. Yeah, he gets very aggressive and Amanda, of course Rita. You we learn more about Rita. Um. I think she reveals herself throughout the series, but I think we see Rita in a whole new light in this season and her struggles and her her having to straddle these two worlds. She's a woman of few words, as we've seen, and this is really the first season where she because there's a substantial amount of dialogue for her. And I've always leaned on her physicality to convey emotion, to convey where I where she is in any scene, and it was really important bringing that physicality still to Gilead. I did a lot of research on Syrian refugees and uh, particularly Syrian refugees who have come to Canada, who have fled horrific conditions but still desperately miss a lot of things about home and still want to dress similarly to home, who want to bring food and senses and smells from home, And so I was really trying to weave that in to this season as well. Still, class Cans had bowed forward just her general physicality, simply because just because she was moved from Giliad doesn't mean that Gilead has been moved from her. And only uh we see a scene with Rita eating sushi purposefully did I shared to sort of change her physicality because I do think that um, a lot of people who have fled circumstances, who have fled the horrific conditions, still carry it with them for quite some time. And I felt it important to pay homage the writing to the vision of the story, but also to audience members who may have had similar situations or or or experiences to uh sort of uh try to nod to them and tell their truth as much as I could. I wanted to ask Lizzie about directing, because um, this season you direct how many episodes three, three, and and I'm curious about I've always been fascinated about an actor who is able to direct herself himself themselves, And I'm wondering about that, challenges of that and what you learned in the process. Um, you know, I mean, I've always been an actor who's very aware of the visuals. I've always been actors likes to be very aware of what's happening on set. I didn't realize this until I started directing that I I've actually been kind of more of a director than I thought for a long time. UM. I like to know about the other characters. I like to know what they're thinking. I like to know what the actor's thought processes have been. I like to, you know, know about the costumes and the sets. So I've always kind of been like that. Um. The biggest challenge for me was, I suppose not having that sounding board of a director to to bounce off of. UM. But I did have so many incredible, beautiful, talented sounding boards, um, you know, with with with Bruce, and with with our writers and my deep piece Stuart Biddlecomb and production design Elizabeth Williams, and then all of these actors. Uh, you know, I didn't. I never felt alone or or unsupported at all. UM, and all the actors that aren't here in in this panel, UM, so I it wasn't as much of UM, it wasn't. I. It was difficult. It was the hardest thing I've ever done, for sure, but it wasn't again like a negative challenge. It was a very positive challenge, and I felt very supported. It's just not a one man job. I mean, they're you know, it's just something you you you just don't do alone. And whether you're an actor or a producer or whatever you do on this in this industry and this in filmmaking, it's just it's not a it's not a one man band. So UM, it was hard in a lot of hours and a lot of thinking and a lot of you know, all of that, a lot of work. But at the same time it was also the probably the most fulfilling thing I've ever done. And I mean, look at these guys. I mean the chance to get to to talk to them as a director and to um offer them a thought and then send them and sit at the monitor and see what they do with that thought is the most extraordinary thing I've ever seen. I had a whole new appreciation for for what they do. UM, even though I'm an actor, so it was it was incredibly fulfilling. I'm just going to go around and ask what for you, as both actors and people who watch this show. If you do watch yourselves, I don't know, some people are weird like that. But what you what is it that you think makes it work so well? And Alexis I'll start with you, UM big fan by the way, yes, thank you. UM. What I mean so many things. I think everybody really brings their best, UM, so many intelligent, creative and hard working UM professionals. Every every cog in the wheel is firing a full blast when they when they come to set or when they prepare to shoot this. So I think, I mean that's it's the team that Bruce and Warren and Lezzie have assembled. And UM, the creative tone that you talked about, the beautiful filters and all the colors. I mean, that was a vision right from the start, UM that they all established with Read Morano, UM our director of the first three episodes, and and they've carried that through so beautifully. These amazing shots. I mean, yeah, I love the visuals that that also I love them so much. And then the incredible, incredible writing. Of course, um, that's our our map. As what we said, Amanda, what would you say when you think about the success of the show. I, Uh, it's it's it's the thing that I've been the most proud to be a part of. Uh. Not not just because of my my love for the book and and because I I I'm a huge fan of the show, because just to experience being a part of a team, and I mean across the board of service, costumes, writing through uh everyone wants to up their game every season. And I don't know if it's something that's been contagious. I don't know if it starts from the top down with Lizzy wo and Bruce that I find. That's the one singular experience I've had where everyone is competing with themselves to be better every season, and usually by season four has can sort of rest on their laurels and board or sort of phone it in. But it's something Oti does this a lot. In a scene. He always asked the director like five questions all of the time. It's lovely, but it's always wanting to be better and keep asking questions, and it's so inspiring as an actor that everyone is pushing themselves and then for myself, I feel in order to be able to run with these people, I'll i'll also have to push myself. So it's affected my work outside of the show, which I love and appreciate. How like you, Lauren well I, our storytelling journey shows us where the strength of this series is um And as you started this discussion earlier, Katie, it's a journey that's not done UM and so I think we as artists and the audience are absolutely attached to that journey. And then the way we execute that is with exquisite, exquisite beauty, UM covering harsh ugliness, and that's fascinating to peel back the beauty of our images to understand how how flawed this world of Gilead is. And of course you know in the world that we live in, particularly over the last four years and it's not over, we know that it mirrors UM the real world through the themes that that Bruce's is putting on the pages for these characters in their journey, and so I think that really really resonates Um visually and uh An emotionally. I have to say I don't get quite the pit of my stomach I did before November. Uh that I used to watching a sleeping better Katie. We all we all sleep better at night. No really, I was always like and I don't quite feel that level of intensity any more. So I'm happy for that. But I think in many ways, uh, the intersection of real life and vision and the rancor that was happening in this country did create the perfect I think backdrop for this story, which would have been compelling on its own, but I think it just it heightened everything you felt watching this story and fold Samira, how about you when you think about, like, damn, this is a good show and this is why Hey, what do you think? Um, I'm not you know, I guess I can speak to what I respond to. And um, there's something about the camera being so close on an actor's face show that really almost I feel like I'm peering into some of these people's souls. Um, things that Lizzie or Amanda or Alexis subtle things with their eyes, a twitch of the upper lip, things like that. Have you see? I feel like deeper into their story and what is going on with that character that I think that I think You're right, Like, sometimes I watch you all and it's so subtle, and yet it tells me so much about what you're feeling. And I guess that's the sign of of truly great acting. So Sam, let's go to you. Well, I think Katie, you're hitting on something. It's the specificity of the show that is so moral less. And I was struck. Here we are ten episodes into this fourth season and I had I was having a conversation with our costume designer, and I that conversation carried over to Joe and the conversation was about not only what we're doing in the scenes, but how does what how does what we're the story we're telling with Joe's are how is that to be received by our audience? Are we telling the right message? And that the actors and the costume designers and the writers of course, that we're all still tuned into that after four seasons. Um, you know, that's the thing I'm I'm most impressed and moved by on our show is that we're still trying to figure out how do we do good? I mean, is what we're doing the right thing? So it's sort of like the integrity of the story really important to you. Ot how about you? Is there anything left? I'm well, do you know what for me is like I feel like what what Bruce has managed to do and the writing team is just great something where I like, on an interpersonal level, a lot of people relate to the trauma, the relationships, unequal relationships between one and one's boss and one and one's partner, one one's um personal who assault to you. But then on a on a larger level, secding what warm was saying that you know, the themes of what's going on in the world and and patriarchy, inequality, and you know, regimes which are based on populism and fear. I think I think a lot of the audience see what's going on in their lives, both in their own homes were also out in the world. And I think that's what great art does. You know, reflects back to your experience. Bruce, I think the right is great. I knew you were going to that. Um. I think uh, for me, the best thing, especially this season is to see to see what a lot of what we do is to try to create space for these people to do their jobs, to do their jobs without worrying about so they're not worrying about. Is someone thinking about the story they're not worried about as someone making sure that we're not, you know, making a horrible moral choice, all those kind of things. And so this season, by creating a bubble, hopefully allowed them to not be in a COVID world, to exist that way and expands to the whole cast and crews. As these guys were saying, I think we're a collection of storytellers. And the more we are that, and the more everybody is encouraged to do that, better off we are. Um. But when I watched the show, I I like that it's made with ker and respect that you know, it's made carefully and respects the abilities of all the people involved and tries to bring those abilities to the floor. So that that's what I like about it is is that you can tell that the craft service people care when you watch the episode. Let's end with you, Lizzie, I told I told Lizzie before we started that there's been a lot of Elizabeth Moss in our home because my husband had never seen mad Men, so we've been watching all of mad Men and all of Handmade's tales, so we I feel very comfortable, you know, looking at you right now, you're in our bedroom every night. So but when you think about what makes what makes this series work so beautifully, and you've been so fortunate to be a part of it, what comes to mind for you? Um, it's kind of what Aman it was. And Bruce was saying, I feel like, you know what, what you see when you end up seeing in the episodes looks you know, polished, and we've made decisions and it's specific, and and that's it. You see that hour of television, and I think what what people obviously don't see and shouldn't see are the nine million emails and calls and late night calls and early morning calls, conversations and all of the work that goes into creating these episodes. And everyone cares so much, every department, every actor, every person cares so much. And we've all been in this business long enough to know that it's not always like that. And some people can just come to work and clock in and clock out, and that's also fine, but um, we somehow have assembled a group of people who that's not fine. And everyone gives so much of themselves to their role, whether it's an acting role or another role on the show, and I I personally think you can feel that, and I think you can you can see it. I definitely can. And I just want to say congratulations for another extraordinary season of The Handmaid's Tale, and I can't wait to see what comes next, even though I'm a little nervous. But thank you all so much, and and thanks for spending this time with me. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of I Heart Media and Katie Kurk Media. The executive producers are me, Katie Curic, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements, Adriana Fasio, and Emily Pinto. The show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go to Katie correct dot com. You can also find me at Katie Curic on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H