Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio News.

Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio News.

Your Secretary of State Marco Rubio is refusing to attend the G twenty summit in South Africa later this month as a row over a new land law deepens. Over the weekend, President Trump threatened to withdraw aid from the country. He spoke to reporters before boarding Air Force One.

Your Secretary of State Marco Rubio is refusing to attend the G twenty summit in South Africa later this month as a row over a new land law deepens. Over the weekend, President Trump threatened to withdraw aid from the country. He spoke to reporters before boarding Air Force One.

Terrible things are happening in South Africa.

Terrible things are happening in South Africa.

The leadership is there are some terrible things, horrible things. So that's under investigation right now.

The leadership is there are some terrible things, horrible things. So that's under investigation right now.

We'll make a determination.

We'll make a determination.

And South African ministers have hit back, threatening to withhold vital minerals from the US. But is this an empty threat?

And South African ministers have hit back, threatening to withhold vital minerals from the US. But is this an empty threat?

Well, minires in the continent, and therefore we have something that we have well not just begars, but must us use that endowment for our benefit.

Well, minires in the continent, and therefore we have something that we have well not just begars, but must us use that endowment for our benefit.

As a President, Rama Posa used part of his State of the Nation address on Thursday to intervene on the dispute.

As a President, Rama Posa used part of his State of the Nation address on Thursday to intervene on the dispute.

We will not be deterred.

We will not be deterred.

We are as South African's resilient people and we will not be bullied.

We are as South African's resilient people and we will not be bullied.

On today's podcast, we'll look at how South Africa has ended up on the US president's radar and how the new administration's foreign policy could have repercussions across the continent. I'm Jennifer Zabastaja and this is the Next Africa Podcast, bringing you one story each week from the continent, driving the future of global growth with the context only Bloomberg can provide. We're going to be speaking to political commentator Justice Malala in a bit, but first we have Bloomberg's deputy Managing editor, Neil Munshi joining us. So, Neil, thanks as always for coming back onto the podcast. President Trump is now taking aim at an new South African expropriation law. Get to the heart of this dispute. What exactly is this row over?

On today's podcast, we'll look at how South Africa has ended up on the US president's radar and how the new administration's foreign policy could have repercussions across the continent. I'm Jennifer Zabastaja and this is the Next Africa Podcast, bringing you one story each week from the continent, driving the future of global growth with the context only Bloomberg can provide. We're going to be speaking to political commentator Justice Malala in a bit, but first we have Bloomberg's deputy Managing editor, Neil Munshi joining us. So, Neil, thanks as always for coming back onto the podcast. President Trump is now taking aim at an new South African expropriation law. Get to the heart of this dispute. What exactly is this row over?

It seems like a misinterpretation, let's say, of what the log she is, which is South Africa past what is essentially an eminent domain law, which countries all over the world have where the government can take over unused land, abandoned land, that kind of thing if it's not being used and can be used by the government for something else. Right, it happens all the time when countries want to lay pipelines or build infrastructure, that kind of stuff. Now, the context in South Africa is a little bit different because one goal of the African National Congress, which is Nelson Mandela's party that brought down apartheid is to redress the inequalities born from the apartheid era, the vast racial wealth gap, all that kind of stuff. It seems like what Trump is doing is conflating the two in a way, and in his tweet about it, he objects to the South African government treating quote, certain classes of people very badly. Secretary of State Rubio also mentioned the seizure of land. There is no seizure of land, but that seems to feed into this long running conspiracy theory that the South African government is seizing land from white.

It seems like a misinterpretation, let's say, of what the log she is, which is South Africa past what is essentially an eminent domain law, which countries all over the world have where the government can take over unused land, abandoned land, that kind of thing if it's not being used and can be used by the government for something else. Right, it happens all the time when countries want to lay pipelines or build infrastructure, that kind of stuff. Now, the context in South Africa is a little bit different because one goal of the African National Congress, which is Nelson Mandela's party that brought down apartheid is to redress the inequalities born from the apartheid era, the vast racial wealth gap, all that kind of stuff. It seems like what Trump is doing is conflating the two in a way, and in his tweet about it, he objects to the South African government treating quote, certain classes of people very badly. Secretary of State Rubio also mentioned the seizure of land. There is no seizure of land, but that seems to feed into this long running conspiracy theory that the South African government is seizing land from white.

Farmers, which brings me to one of Trump's closest advisors, of course, Elon Musk, who is from South Africa Praetoria Man as many people refer to him. Where does he fit into this? Is he potentially the one whispering and the president's ear about what's going on? I mean, what have his commons been so?

Farmers, which brings me to one of Trump's closest advisors, of course, Elon Musk, who is from South Africa Praetoria Man as many people refer to him. Where does he fit into this? Is he potentially the one whispering and the president's ear about what's going on? I mean, what have his commons been so?

Musk has for years now trafficked in this racist conspiracy theory about the black majority South African government either seizing land from white farmers or committee a so called white genocide against white people in the country. None of this stuff is happening, but he has repeatedly raise this specter or on Twitter or x you know, commented on other people's faux outrage about the South African government doing terrible things to white people in the country. It all kind of fits into the broader anti DEI kind of racial grievance politics that Trump and Musk are bringing to the US government right.

Musk has for years now trafficked in this racist conspiracy theory about the black majority South African government either seizing land from white farmers or committee a so called white genocide against white people in the country. None of this stuff is happening, but he has repeatedly raise this specter or on Twitter or x you know, commented on other people's faux outrage about the South African government doing terrible things to white people in the country. It all kind of fits into the broader anti DEI kind of racial grievance politics that Trump and Musk are bringing to the US government right.

Now, what's that stake, Neil, if this bilateral relationships falls.

Now, what's that stake, Neil, if this bilateral relationships falls.

Apart, So the US is South Africa's top trading partner. Most of that is minerals that go to private companies. It'd be hard for the Trump administration to stop companies from buying I don't know coal or diamonds or gold or anything else. But I think what the last couple weeks has taught the world is he never kind of want to be in Trump's sites because he can make things very uncomfortable for you as a government your country without sort of any thought to the broader context. That is going to be particularly tricky for South Africa, given Elon Musk's relationship with Trump and his history with this conspiracy theory, and the fact that they are the head of the G twenty this year, They're hosting the presidency in the summits. Already Rubio has said he won't come. We don't know about Treasury Secretary Besent coming at the end of February, and then of course in November is the Leader's Summit, which Trump in the past has attended. But given his focus on this kind of issue, non issue that's also up in the air.

Apart, So the US is South Africa's top trading partner. Most of that is minerals that go to private companies. It'd be hard for the Trump administration to stop companies from buying I don't know coal or diamonds or gold or anything else. But I think what the last couple weeks has taught the world is he never kind of want to be in Trump's sites because he can make things very uncomfortable for you as a government your country without sort of any thought to the broader context. That is going to be particularly tricky for South Africa, given Elon Musk's relationship with Trump and his history with this conspiracy theory, and the fact that they are the head of the G twenty this year, They're hosting the presidency in the summits. Already Rubio has said he won't come. We don't know about Treasury Secretary Besent coming at the end of February, and then of course in November is the Leader's Summit, which Trump in the past has attended. But given his focus on this kind of issue, non issue that's also up in the air.

Well, let's turn out to Justice Malala and bring him in political commentator and also a Bloomberg opinion columnist. Justice, It's always great to get you on the show and to speak with you. I wonder if you can give us your take on how this row is playing out and how it even reached President Trump's desk.

Well, let's turn out to Justice Malala and bring him in political commentator and also a Bloomberg opinion columnist. Justice, It's always great to get you on the show and to speak with you. I wonder if you can give us your take on how this row is playing out and how it even reached President Trump's desk.

I have no doubt, Jen, that the way to President Thump's ear has been through Elon Musk and a corhort of others former South Africans who have become very close to the make America Great Again cor hoort who are hugely, hugely influential on him, who can whisper in his ear and say this is a concern and it becomes his concern without even stop to think it through. And you can go back to Peter Till, who's a major donor of the president the new trip Todzar David Taxis as one of those and others. I'm not saying in this case it was through those channels. The thing to realize now and for South African policymakers is that it's going to be a very tamp centric four years for South Africa because they are in the sight lines of this administration. Add to that people like the media, the journalist Taker Calson, who has made this issue of land in South Africa a bugbear of his and he talks about it again and again. My view is that those people already are looking at South Africa and are looking at it. Askance if I have were to reference Marco Rubio. Mark Rubio about in October last year, even before the election, was already saying South Africa is making and I want to quote a grave mistake by listening to China on the Taiwan issue for example. You know, wrongly or rightly, this is an administration that is looking very, very seriously at South Africa and is looking at it punitively. So I expect that this is not the last we've heard of Donald Trump and others us on South Africa.

I have no doubt, Jen, that the way to President Thump's ear has been through Elon Musk and a corhort of others former South Africans who have become very close to the make America Great Again cor hoort who are hugely, hugely influential on him, who can whisper in his ear and say this is a concern and it becomes his concern without even stop to think it through. And you can go back to Peter Till, who's a major donor of the president the new trip Todzar David Taxis as one of those and others. I'm not saying in this case it was through those channels. The thing to realize now and for South African policymakers is that it's going to be a very tamp centric four years for South Africa because they are in the sight lines of this administration. Add to that people like the media, the journalist Taker Calson, who has made this issue of land in South Africa a bugbear of his and he talks about it again and again. My view is that those people already are looking at South Africa and are looking at it. Askance if I have were to reference Marco Rubio. Mark Rubio about in October last year, even before the election, was already saying South Africa is making and I want to quote a grave mistake by listening to China on the Taiwan issue for example. You know, wrongly or rightly, this is an administration that is looking very, very seriously at South Africa and is looking at it punitively. So I expect that this is not the last we've heard of Donald Trump and others us on South Africa.

And of course it's not the best time for the country, right you mentioned the G twenty. South Africa is set to be the first African country to host a G twenty later this year. This week when this post came out from President Trump, there was a big mining conference that was going on. It's the week of the State of the Nation with this new government here in South Africa, so not an opportune time. And also, you know, South Africa, as you know we've talked about, has been caught in the crosshairs for the case they brought against Israel, right, and so how do you expect the South African authorities and leaders to respond? Do you do you continue to see this being I don't know, a tense dispute between these two countries.

And of course it's not the best time for the country, right you mentioned the G twenty. South Africa is set to be the first African country to host a G twenty later this year. This week when this post came out from President Trump, there was a big mining conference that was going on. It's the week of the State of the Nation with this new government here in South Africa, so not an opportune time. And also, you know, South Africa, as you know we've talked about, has been caught in the crosshairs for the case they brought against Israel, right, and so how do you expect the South African authorities and leaders to respond? Do you do you continue to see this being I don't know, a tense dispute between these two countries.

Yes, I think it's going to be very tense. As you rightly say that the focus of the world over the next twelve months will be on South Africa. I threw to November when the G twenty leaders ive in jo Hannesburg. And so for South Africa, which has a whole range of things. You talk about the new government of National Unity. You know, when several rama Pasa and his team went divorce last month, people were all over them, saying, you guys have done an amazing thing. You've managed to pull together and see the opposition eight smaller parties into a ten party coalition. People worry about the stability of that coalition. And so you've got a jitary market already around South Africa. And then you add to this an unprovoked attack from the most powerful politician in the world. It becomes a huge issue for South Africa. How should South Africa respond? How is it responding? The context is that you have this loud voice, I'm pulling South Africa from funding from South Africa, But actually, how much is it? How big is it? And when you look at the numbers, they're not They're not that scary or that bay. You know, South Africa is feeling what a huge chunk of the world Mexico, Canada, China to a less extent, is feeling. And that's the time effect of being shouted at and then saying, Okay, where's the meat, but the meat is I don't know where the meat is. You know, it's all it's all very thin soup.

Yes, I think it's going to be very tense. As you rightly say that the focus of the world over the next twelve months will be on South Africa. I threw to November when the G twenty leaders ive in jo Hannesburg. And so for South Africa, which has a whole range of things. You talk about the new government of National Unity. You know, when several rama Pasa and his team went divorce last month, people were all over them, saying, you guys have done an amazing thing. You've managed to pull together and see the opposition eight smaller parties into a ten party coalition. People worry about the stability of that coalition. And so you've got a jitary market already around South Africa. And then you add to this an unprovoked attack from the most powerful politician in the world. It becomes a huge issue for South Africa. How should South Africa respond? How is it responding? The context is that you have this loud voice, I'm pulling South Africa from funding from South Africa, But actually, how much is it? How big is it? And when you look at the numbers, they're not They're not that scary or that bay. You know, South Africa is feeling what a huge chunk of the world Mexico, Canada, China to a less extent, is feeling. And that's the time effect of being shouted at and then saying, Okay, where's the meat, but the meat is I don't know where the meat is. You know, it's all it's all very thin soup.

Stick with me justice. When we come back, we'll talk about what might happen next and how African leaders should deal with the new Trump administration. We'll be right back. Welcome back. We're looking at what's behind President Trump's latest route with South Africa. We have political commentator Justice Malala with us. So Justice, you're walking us through the scenario in which South Africa has now found itself in. Given where things are at, now, what is President Ramaposa to do? And I mean, is it better to sort of sit on the sidelines and wait for this to play out? Is it better to respond? And I wonder how then other African countries should gain it.

Stick with me justice. When we come back, we'll talk about what might happen next and how African leaders should deal with the new Trump administration. We'll be right back. Welcome back. We're looking at what's behind President Trump's latest route with South Africa. We have political commentator Justice Malala with us. So Justice, you're walking us through the scenario in which South Africa has now found itself in. Given where things are at, now, what is President Ramaposa to do? And I mean, is it better to sort of sit on the sidelines and wait for this to play out? Is it better to respond? And I wonder how then other African countries should gain it.

I think a lot of us jhen who look at these things have always said Africa needs to shape its own our gender. It needs to say this is what we need, this is what we've got, what do we have at the negotiating table. I don't think this attack on South Africa by Donald Trump and members of his administration is any different to the way South Africa should be acting and responding to threats or overtures from China, from Russia, from the UAE, taking other players on the continent, other jurisdictions which want to participate and play on the continent. I think Siril Ramaposa in a South Africa specific sense has done the right thing. He's gone out of his way. He said, this is how much we're getting. This is what we're doing. Is called Elon Musk and said, let's have a conversation about misinformation and disinformation on your platform by yourself, because Elon Musk has made these claims himself. And so I think that's the first step. But the key thing here is what the minerals Minister in South Africa has responded with saying, well, you know, we are endowed with mineral wealth. The United States and others need us, and so we will consider how we respond in that manner. I don't think that that's the card that Serah Ramapasa himself is playing. If you take South African experts to the United States, if you take manganese, South Africa is home to seventy percent of the world's manganese. So this is a country that that has a lot to give, a lot to trade with the United States. Does the United States, on the basis of this, of this crisis that it has manufactured itself, want to get into this sort of thing with South Africa. I think not. So one might say, you know, and you and I have looked at followed Minister Mantashe of South Africa. He's a very flamboyant, very voluble individual, and he say, oh, you know, it's just noise that he's making, but he's onto something. And I think many Africans are saying, well, what are we dealing with here? Why are we continuing to act as if we are begging?

I think a lot of us jhen who look at these things have always said Africa needs to shape its own our gender. It needs to say this is what we need, this is what we've got, what do we have at the negotiating table. I don't think this attack on South Africa by Donald Trump and members of his administration is any different to the way South Africa should be acting and responding to threats or overtures from China, from Russia, from the UAE, taking other players on the continent, other jurisdictions which want to participate and play on the continent. I think Siril Ramaposa in a South Africa specific sense has done the right thing. He's gone out of his way. He said, this is how much we're getting. This is what we're doing. Is called Elon Musk and said, let's have a conversation about misinformation and disinformation on your platform by yourself, because Elon Musk has made these claims himself. And so I think that's the first step. But the key thing here is what the minerals Minister in South Africa has responded with saying, well, you know, we are endowed with mineral wealth. The United States and others need us, and so we will consider how we respond in that manner. I don't think that that's the card that Serah Ramapasa himself is playing. If you take South African experts to the United States, if you take manganese, South Africa is home to seventy percent of the world's manganese. So this is a country that that has a lot to give, a lot to trade with the United States. Does the United States, on the basis of this, of this crisis that it has manufactured itself, want to get into this sort of thing with South Africa. I think not. So one might say, you know, and you and I have looked at followed Minister Mantashe of South Africa. He's a very flamboyant, very voluble individual, and he say, oh, you know, it's just noise that he's making, but he's onto something. And I think many Africans are saying, well, what are we dealing with here? Why are we continuing to act as if we are begging?

And you can read all of our coverage across Bloomberg platforms. Now here's some other stories we've been following across the region. This week, leaders from the East and Southern African communities will discuss how to respond to the growing humanitarian crisis in Congo as they meet in Tanzania this weekend. The United Nations and its partners have retrieved at least two thousand bodies from the streets of the trading hub of Goma, which is now under the control of Rwanda backed M twenty three rebels, and a satellite communication system used by the US and UK to run military operations is central to efforts by Britain to resolve the sovereignty of the Chegos Islands. UK security officials familiar with the matter said now the revelation highlights the stakes for UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer as he attempts to secure a controversial deal with Mauritius to resolve the sovereignty claims over the Indian Ocean archipelago, which has been controlled by Britain for more than two centuries. And you can follow these stories across Bloomberg, including the Next African Newsletter. Will put a link to that in the show notes. This program was produced by Adrian Bradley. Don't forget to follow and review this show wherever you usually get your podcasts. I'm Jennifer Zabasogia. Thanks as always for listening. We'll see you next time.

And you can read all of our coverage across Bloomberg platforms. Now here's some other stories we've been following across the region. This week, leaders from the East and Southern African communities will discuss how to respond to the growing humanitarian crisis in Congo as they meet in Tanzania this weekend. The United Nations and its partners have retrieved at least two thousand bodies from the streets of the trading hub of Goma, which is now under the control of Rwanda backed M twenty three rebels, and a satellite communication system used by the US and UK to run military operations is central to efforts by Britain to resolve the sovereignty of the Chegos Islands. UK security officials familiar with the matter said now the revelation highlights the stakes for UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer as he attempts to secure a controversial deal with Mauritius to resolve the sovereignty claims over the Indian Ocean archipelago, which has been controlled by Britain for more than two centuries. And you can follow these stories across Bloomberg, including the Next African Newsletter. Will put a link to that in the show notes. This program was produced by Adrian Bradley. Don't forget to follow and review this show wherever you usually get your podcasts. I'm Jennifer Zabasogia. Thanks as always for listening. We'll see you next time.