Mornings with Tom and TabiOpen Line CHATT provides an opportunity for you to ask your questions about the Bible to Dr. Michael Rydelnik, Vice President, Academic Dean and Professor of Bible and Jewish Studies at Moody Bible Institute. One of the questions was about Jewish believers in the Old Testament, 'How did they view heaven?' Michael's response will make you want to dig into scripture to learn more.
And good morning to you and welcome back. Doctor Michael Rodnick, thanks so much for joining us for Open Line Chat.
Hey, I'm so glad to be with you today. It's great. Uh, hope you guys are doing well. Did you have a great Christmas and New Year's holidays?
We really did. We had a great vacation time, did some fun things and struggled. We crawled into work today.
Yeah. We did.
It's time to go back to work. Come on.
Yeah, yeah. Well, we've been here for a couple of hours. I don't know about you, Michael, but we've been doing it for a bit. And, uh, you know, Tommy and I went through a trial separation at the end of the year, and it worked out pretty well because we're enjoying each other again now.
Yeah. Well that's good. Well, I my email was very limited for the last two weeks, and I'm afraid to even open my email this morning.
Yeah, yeah. It's going to be fun to get back into the grind. How was your holiday, Michael?
I had a great time. A lot of grandkid time, you know, uh, a lot of Poppy and Nana time with them. That was that was a lot of funny, fun. And, uh, played games. They learned the game of life and, uh, monopoly, junior and things like that. They they're really into games now. So that was a lot of fun. Okay.
What are their ages.
Six and nine.
Mhm.
The nine year old. That's a good that's.
A great age. Those are great ages.
Yeah absolutely. Well we're excited to start 2025 with you here Michael. Just thank you for being a part of mornings with Tom and Toby. It's great to have you with us each and every Monday. And we have some questions that are already coming in just to kind of get you started. Are you ready? Okay, okay. We're not playing Stump the Stars or anything today. We're not trying to see if there's something that you can't answer. So we're starting with, um, a question from Beverly.
So, Beverly, um, she's going all the way to revelation with this. Revelation three five states that he who overcomes, I will not erase his name from the book of Life. So as everyone's name in the Book of Life from the beginning or at their birth, and it's erased if they don't accept Jesus. What does this mean?
No, no, no. That's actually a promise. It's not saying it won't be erased. What this is. It's talking about believers. And the mark of a believer is someone who persists, who perseveres, who overcomes. And so the promise to a believer, a genuine believer is they'll they'll never be taken out of the book of life once they're there. That's what that's saying. It's the promise that all believers can't lose their salvation.
Huh? Okay.
That's it. I won't erase you. You're there. You're there. So now, if a person, uh. How would I put this? If a person makes a profession of faith but isn't genuine, they're not erased from the Book of Life. They're not even in there. So that's, uh. That's just someone who gives a profession like the different soils that the Lord Jesus spoke about. Uh, and the seed, you know, it falls in the rocky soil and and they don't continue. They don't overcome. They don't persevere. It's not that they've lost their salvation. They weren't genuine. They didn't. They never had it. Mm.
Okay. Okay. Thank you so much for just kind of pointing that out. And the promise that's available to us in revelation three five. And Sue has a question for you. It says this. She wants to know how did the Jewish believers view heaven in Old Testament times, since they didn't have the book of Revelation like we do?
Ah.
They didn't have the book of Revelation. Are you kidding me? No, that's right, there's progressive revelation more and more. Basically, if you read the Old Testament, people talk about, uh, uh, Sheol, the the abode of the dead. There appeared to be a place when they thought, when you die, you go someplace. Either that's good with God. Uh, and into his presence. That part of the abode of the dead or a place that's bad. Uh, and that one day, will be resurrected. We can see that in the book of job. Uh, in the book of Job, job says, uh, I know that I'll see him. Uh, I know that my living redeemer, he will stand on the dust at last, even after my skin has been destroyed. Yet I will see God in my flesh. I will see him myself. My eyes will look at him, and not as a stranger. My heart longs within me. And so he's. That's what job assured that he had a sense that one day he would see God because his Redeemer lived. Uh, you can see the idea of the resurrection in Daniel 12, in Isaiah 26. So there is this idea that when we die, we go to the abode of the dead, either in the presence of God or, uh, separated from him. But they didn't have the as much detail. But there was a genuine confidence in the physical resurrection from the dead. Uh, I'm pulling up Isaiah 26. It says your dead will live. Their bodies will rise. Awake and sing. You who will dwell, who dwell in the dust. For you will be covered with the morning dew. And the earth will bring out the departed spirits. So Isaiah 2619 is a verse that talks about the future resurrection. And then of course, Daniel 12 two has this idea that there would be a physical resurrection from the dead. And I'm turning all my pages of the Bible. Uh, in Daniel 12. And, you know, a lot of people think that this is some sort of new idea, but it it's right there in, in the Old Testament. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to eternal life, some to shame and eternal contempt. And so Daniel 12 two has, uh, has a very clear statement about the resurrection from the dead.
Well, you know, you don't really think about these pictures of what it's going to be like at the end. In the Old Testament, you know, there are some imagery of, of course, in Isaiah that that we go to, but actually they're talking about what it's going to be like at the end of days.
Yeah, yeah, that's what it's talking about, the resurrection. But there is this confidence that they will go and see God. Uh, and when they go to Sheol, when they sleep with their fathers, for example, in what it says of the kings, they go to Sheol, which is translated in the King James as hell, but it's Sheol. Uh, in the, in the, uh, it's not hell, it's the abode of the dead. And so and both believers and non-believers in the Old Testament go to Sheol. But there seems to be two areas. The the abode of the dead has the separated from God place this, and Sheol also has the presence of God place.
And Doctor Michael Melnick is joining us and he was just explaining Sheol and the difference in Sheol in the Old Testament in heaven and hell that we learn about in the New Testament. So I had to follow up with that. Like when did there when did people develop a theology of heaven and hell? Because it's talked about in in the New Testament after those 400 years of silence, and then suddenly we have this discussion on heaven and hell.
Well, you know, I don't think the New Testament is as clear as people make it out to be. So for example, the Lord Jesus does talk in the in the Synoptics about eternal separation from God and suffering. Uh, when when people are, uh, don't believe so, it's in there, you know, about hell, but he doesn't call it hell. Uh, that's not the word that he uses. Uh, which I think is is interesting. Uh, he says, uh, for example, he will cut him to pieces, assign him a place with the hypocrites, and the place that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. That's the end of Matthew 24. So, uh, he says in Matthew 25, depart from me, you who are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 2541 so he describes, but does not name it. Hell, that's, I think, really interesting, because when we look at what the Book of Revelation says, what we call hell is the lake of fire. And that is actually, uh, the lake of fire is only for the devil.
And his angels.
Yes. Satan's cast into the lake of fire after the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth. And that's when there's a great white throne judgment, when everyone is resurrected and the people who don't know him, who resisted him, who refused the forgiveness of sin that God offered in love. That's when they enter the lake of fire. So often what people think of as the lake of fire is, uh, think of as hell. It's actually the lake of fire. And people don't go there. Now, that's after the the millennium. So where do people go now? I think the example we have is the rich man with Lazarus. The rich man goes to Sheol, but it's a place of suffering. And he wants. And Lazarus, who also goes to Sheol, is now with in Abraham's bosom. He's in the presence of God. And Abraham is comforting him. Uh, and so apparently, and Paul writes in Philippians one, for example, that it's better for him to stay for their ministry, but he would prefer to go to be with the Lord, to go be with. So he knows that when he dies, he'll go to be with Jesus. His his immaterial part. His spirit. Uh, in Second Corinthians five he says, absent from the body is present with the Lord. So he knows that when I leave this body, I'll go to be with the Lord. But what will be heaven and hell as people talk about it? It really takes place after the millennium. Uh, the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth. Uh, the believers will be resurrected. Uh, before the millennium. Uh, those of us who know the Lord now will be resurrected before the at the rapture. And then we'll go through. We'll be resurrected and go through the millennium afterwards, after the tribulation. Resurrected. The lost will be resurrected after the millennium. Believers will enter. After the millennium will enter the new creation, the new heavens and the new earth. That's what we often think of as heaven, right? Um, but it's a material place. It's a new creation, and we'll be working there. It says his servants will serve him in revelation 22. Will be serving God in our resurrected bodies in the new creation. That's heaven. We're not sitting around on a cloud with a harp.
Or an accordion.
Yeah, it's like a new. It's a new dimension of when we continue our lives there.
Yeah, a new world. A new.
World. In a new world.
Yeah. And then the loss will go into the lake of fire, sadly. And by the way, no one has to go to the Lake of fire. God is reaching out in love today, telling people I paid for those sins through the death of the Lord Jesus. I took the punishment through my son. And now all you have to do. And he was resurrected from the dead. He gives you new life. He forgives your sin. All you have to do is trust in him. Uh, it's God's not willing. Doesn't desire that any should perish. He wants us to turn to him now.
That's beautiful. That's a truth that's available to you right now. It's Doctor Michael Riedel, uh, the host of Open Line. And, of course, he's with us here each and every Monday. And, Michael, we have one more question that came up. I'd like to ask that right now. Um, it's when Ham saw Noah naked. What did that cause? Because afterwards Ham, according to this question, became bad. And does it relate to Adam and Eve being naked in Eden, or, uh, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and the nakedness and sexual immorality? So lots of questions surrounding that little moment in Scripture.
I I'm not sure I can answer all those questions. Uh, I don't think it has anything to do with Adam and Eve being naked. Nakedness. Then it was only after they sinned were they aware of their nakedness. I think we're now at a point where there was some modesty, and Noah was a problem here when he does this, because what did he do? You know, God put Adam and Eve in a garden. And what did they do? They rebelled against his rules. Noah gets put, survives the flood. Gets put into a vineyard. He plants a vineyard, right? And then he imbibes a little too much and gets drunk. So it's a recursion of what happened in the garden of eating from the fruit. And in such a way that was not good. Uh, and while he was drunk, uh, it says Ham, the father of Canaan saw his father because he was laying there. He uncovered himself inside his tent. Ham, uh, the father of Nick, and saw his saw father of Canaan, saw his father naked and told his two brothers outside. Uh, and Shem and Japheth were respectful. They covered him up with a cloak, uh, and they covered their father's nakedness. They walked backward. They didn't want to look at it. They were respectful. So what was the sin of ham? It's not clear. It may have been the mockery of his father, because he went out and told his brothers may have been mocking his father, you know, look what he's doing. And instead of being respectful, uh, it may have been that there was some sort of look with, with, uh, lust, uh, you know, some sort of same sex attraction, uh, an incestuous view. That would be horrible. But, I mean, it's pretty serious sin. Don't know what what this is. Uh, I lean towards much more of it being a disrespectful mocking of his father and his two brothers were not. And so I think it's what it's teaching is, uh, even when when people fail us that deserve respect, we need to be respectful of them, like his two brothers were. Okay. But, uh, that just appeared to it. And then the God and his grace, instead of all of Ham's sons being cursed. Only one, uh, the father of, uh, he's the father of Canaan. But he had other sons as well. He had Cush, Egypt, foot and Canaan. Cush becomes the father of Ethiopia, Sudan, Egypt. Uh mitzrayim. The father of the people of Egypt. Uh, foot is Libya and then Canaan. And by cursing Canaan, it sort of prepares the way for what we see at the conquest. Uh, when Israel finally enters the land. Uh, so here we are at the beginning of the Pentateuch. We see a curse on Canaan. And only at the end of the Pentateuch do we see, uh, Israel about to enter the land. And this curse going to be fulfilled. So.
Well, Michael, thank you so much for that.
Okay. I don't know if we have time to squeeze in this last one from Judy. Okay. She's asking, how old was Jesus when he was taken to Simeon?
How old was Jesus when he was taken to Simeon? He was, uh, was at the, uh, Redemption of the firstborn. He was 30 days.
Okay, so that was the traditional time.
That's according to the law of Moses. That's when you do the redemption of the firstborn.
Can you.
Explain a little bit more of the redemption of the.
Firstborn?
Sure, sure. Uh, let's go to Luke real quick. Uh, what? I'm pretty sure this. It was Hannah that he saw at his. I'm sorry. It was at circumcision. I'm sorry. Uh, he saw Simeon at his circumcision. And Anna, he saw it at the 30 days. So he's. The circumcision was on the eighth day, one week after birth. Uh, and that's when he saw Simeon. Uh, and then, uh, it appears that at 30 days, uh, he went to see Anna, uh, or they brought him, and that's that's when that happens, I'm pretty sure. Uh, so, uh, the idea of the 30 days being complete. The redemption of the firstborn. Israel, the firstborn was originally supposed to be the priesthood. Also, the originally the firstborn was supposed to be lost. I remember when God went through the firstborn of all the Egyptians were taken at the 10th plague. God spared the firstborn, and so they were to be paid for with their service. But then God chose Levi and the firstborn always. There had to be a sacrifice offered, uh, so that, uh, uh, he might, uh, that was the redemption of the firstborn at 30 days.
So, like, technically, you should be the one serving, but since.
You're dead or.
Serving, you need to have the sacrifice to exempt yourself.
Yep.
That's it.
Interesting. And it's still.
Jewish. People still do. The pigeon habeen the redemption of the firstborn. Uh, for the firstborn son.
How.
Uh, this is just a ceremony. Because there's no sacrifice today.
