We talked about the movie conclave because all four of us have become major fans, and we're offended that Jamie hasn't seen it.

We talked about the movie conclave because all four of us have become major fans, and we're offended that Jamie hasn't seen it.

Yeah, you really need to. It's one thing for three of the four of us to be obsessed about something, but once you get Ron, you know it's good when Ron is hopped on.

Yeah, you really need to. It's one thing for three of the four of us to be obsessed about something, but once you get Ron, you know it's good when Ron is hopped on.

And I am. I'm obsessed.

And I am. I'm obsessed.

I'm not.

I'm not.

Obsessed. It is.

Obsessed. It is.

So good. Jamie, you have to watch it.

So good. Jamie, you have to watch it.

All right?

All right?

Yeah. I don't know that you've been obsessed like you've said that before.

Yeah. I don't know that you've been obsessed like you've said that before.

It is literally the best movie that came out last year, if not probably one of the best movies that's come out in ten years. It's amazing all the time.

It is literally the best movie that came out last year, if not probably one of the best movies that's come out in ten years. It's amazing all the time.

Yeah, it's it's been a while since I've been obsessed with something, some entertainment form. But this this movie qualifies, and.

Yeah, it's it's been a while since I've been obsessed with something, some entertainment form. But this this movie qualifies, and.

I'm not certain all four of us have ever been on board with something like this.

I'm not certain all four of us have ever been on board with something like this.

Right? Yeah. No, we all have very different interests. So for all of us to really love something, you know, it's big.

Right? Yeah. No, we all have very different interests. So for all of us to really love something, you know, it's big.

And so we got a ton of comments because we zeroed in on one speech from the dean of the College of Cardinals in the film, Dean Lawrence, played by Ralph Fiennes. Okay. And he talked about a sin that scared him more than any other in this film. It depicts the selection of a new pope, and so it's very apropos, as they say in France, I believe. And it means something like appropriate, timely, something like that. At least that's what the French say, and that's.

And so we got a ton of comments because we zeroed in on one speech from the dean of the College of Cardinals in the film, Dean Lawrence, played by Ralph Fiennes. Okay. And he talked about a sin that scared him more than any other in this film. It depicts the selection of a new pope, and so it's very apropos, as they say in France, I believe. And it means something like appropriate, timely, something like that. At least that's what the French say, and that's.

What they say.

What they say.

So he talked about a sin that scared him, and I'd never heard of this sin. So we're going to listen back to the speech now to give you some context. And then we'll get into a discussion about it. Take it away, Ron.

So he talked about a sin that scared him, and I'd never heard of this sin. So we're going to listen back to the speech now to give you some context. And then we'll get into a discussion about it. Take it away, Ron.

Let me speak from the heart for a moment. Saint Paul said, be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. To work together and to to grow together. We must be tolerant. No one person or faction seeking to dominate another. And speaking to the Ephesians, who were, of course, a mixture of Jews and Gentiles. Paul reminds us that God's gift to the church is its variety. It is this variety, this diversity of people and views, which gives our church its strength. And over the course of many years, in the service of our mother, the church, let me tell you, there is one sin which I have come to fear above all others. Certainty. Certainty is the great enemy of unity. Certainty is the deadly enemy of tolerance. Even Christ was not certain at the end. Diamir Diamir. May I Abandonato he cried out in his agony at the ninth hour on the cross. Our faith is a living thing precisely because it walks hand in hand with doubt. If there was only certainty, and no doubt there would be no mystery and therefore no need for faith. Let us pray that God will grant us a Pope who doubts, and let him grant us a Pope whose sins and asks for forgiveness, and who carries on.

Let me speak from the heart for a moment. Saint Paul said, be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. To work together and to to grow together. We must be tolerant. No one person or faction seeking to dominate another. And speaking to the Ephesians, who were, of course, a mixture of Jews and Gentiles. Paul reminds us that God's gift to the church is its variety. It is this variety, this diversity of people and views, which gives our church its strength. And over the course of many years, in the service of our mother, the church, let me tell you, there is one sin which I have come to fear above all others. Certainty. Certainty is the great enemy of unity. Certainty is the deadly enemy of tolerance. Even Christ was not certain at the end. Diamir Diamir. May I Abandonato he cried out in his agony at the ninth hour on the cross. Our faith is a living thing precisely because it walks hand in hand with doubt. If there was only certainty, and no doubt there would be no mystery and therefore no need for faith. Let us pray that God will grant us a Pope who doubts, and let him grant us a Pope whose sins and asks for forgiveness, and who carries on.

For now. A couple of quick caveats. We talked about it earlier this week, so I'll make these very brief. But of course we are part of Moody Bible Institute. We're an evangelical organization. We certainly have theological differences with the Roman Catholic Church. We certainly don't think that that speech from a movie should be taken word for word as any assertion of our beliefs or not, but it's provoking of conversation. And we thought that idea of certainty as a sin was pretty powerful. And so we wanted to talk about it. So I hope that's a fair. Is that enough of a caveat? Do you feel like we covered all the caveats?

For now. A couple of quick caveats. We talked about it earlier this week, so I'll make these very brief. But of course we are part of Moody Bible Institute. We're an evangelical organization. We certainly have theological differences with the Roman Catholic Church. We certainly don't think that that speech from a movie should be taken word for word as any assertion of our beliefs or not, but it's provoking of conversation. And we thought that idea of certainty as a sin was pretty powerful. And so we wanted to talk about it. So I hope that's a fair. Is that enough of a caveat? Do you feel like we covered all the caveats?

Yeah, there's things I don't agree with what he said, but. And that should be okay. Yeah. That's okay. We can still talk about other parts of his speech that are thought provoking.

Yeah, there's things I don't agree with what he said, but. And that should be okay. Yeah. That's okay. We can still talk about other parts of his speech that are thought provoking.

We listen to a speech a few moments ago where one of the characters in the film said the sin he fears most at that time in their work was the sin of certainty, and we found that to be intriguing. Yeah, that certainty would be considered a sin. And to jump into this, we had a call we couldn't get to that. Daria can summarize for us.

We listen to a speech a few moments ago where one of the characters in the film said the sin he fears most at that time in their work was the sin of certainty, and we found that to be intriguing. Yeah, that certainty would be considered a sin. And to jump into this, we had a call we couldn't get to that. Daria can summarize for us.

Yeah. So this person was kind of upset at our assertion that certainty could be a sin in certain contexts and not a sin in others. Um, and just they said it either is a sin or it isn't.

Yeah. So this person was kind of upset at our assertion that certainty could be a sin in certain contexts and not a sin in others. Um, and just they said it either is a sin or it isn't.

Yeah. And there, um, there certainly are sins that are like that lying.

Yeah. And there, um, there certainly are sins that are like that lying.

Well.

Well.

Well, actually.

Well, actually.

Okay. So then what is one that is.

Okay. So then what is one that is.

Um, okay. Well. Adultery.

Um, okay. Well. Adultery.

Okay. Yep.

Okay. Yep.

Adultery. Definitely. There's no. No. So now we have to go back and explain line quickly. What I would say is that not everyone's entitled to the entire truth.

Adultery. Definitely. There's no. No. So now we have to go back and explain line quickly. What I would say is that not everyone's entitled to the entire truth.

There's also the the midwives in Egypt that were commended for not disclosing that boys had been born or people.

There's also the the midwives in Egypt that were commended for not disclosing that boys had been born or people.

Um, during World War two, housing Jewish people and not telling if, you know, the Gestapo came to their, uh, house and was like, are there Jews here? Yeah. No.

Um, during World War two, housing Jewish people and not telling if, you know, the Gestapo came to their, uh, house and was like, are there Jews here? Yeah. No.

Even though what's interesting is Corrie Ten boom and her family were convinced they couldn't lie. And so they didn't. And one time a Nazi at their door was they were like, yep, we've got them hiding here. And they're like, ha ha. Goodbye. They like thought they were joking around. But if you talk to Doctor Redlich about it, he said, you always choose the greater good, and the greater good is the preservation of life. Yeah, it's not the lesser of two evils. It's the greater of two goods. Now, Daria's example, off the air I thought was the best. It's a little startling, but I think it's it's the best example of this because the person that called was very they didn't like the idea that something could be sinful sometimes and not other times.

Even though what's interesting is Corrie Ten boom and her family were convinced they couldn't lie. And so they didn't. And one time a Nazi at their door was they were like, yep, we've got them hiding here. And they're like, ha ha. Goodbye. They like thought they were joking around. But if you talk to Doctor Redlich about it, he said, you always choose the greater good, and the greater good is the preservation of life. Yeah, it's not the lesser of two evils. It's the greater of two goods. Now, Daria's example, off the air I thought was the best. It's a little startling, but I think it's it's the best example of this because the person that called was very they didn't like the idea that something could be sinful sometimes and not other times.

Yeah. Brace yourself. What I said was, if you got little ears, I apologize. Sex is not a sin. But sometimes it is. In certain contexts it is not okay in the context in which God has designed it. Not a sin.

Yeah. Brace yourself. What I said was, if you got little ears, I apologize. Sex is not a sin. But sometimes it is. In certain contexts it is not okay in the context in which God has designed it. Not a sin.

Food, not a sin. You need it to live. But sometimes it is. Gluttony is a sin.

Food, not a sin. You need it to live. But sometimes it is. Gluttony is a sin.

Money. Not a sin. But if you love it, look at it.

Money. Not a sin. But if you love it, look at it.

It's sinning. Drugs in some instances.

It's sinning. Drugs in some instances.

What kind of drugs are we talking?

What kind of drugs are we talking?

Well.

Well.

Let's talk.

Let's talk.

About this.

About this.

I'm just.

I'm just.

Kidding.

Kidding.

A very big.

A very big.

Difference between.

Difference between.

Tylenol.

Tylenol.

And she said, let me jump in drugs. I mean, if you're prescribed some painkillers.

And she said, let me jump in drugs. I mean, if you're prescribed some painkillers.

Sure. Right.

Sure. Right.

Because you've had an injury or a surgery, but then to abuse them or to not have a prescription would be abuse of that, right?

Because you've had an injury or a surgery, but then to abuse them or to not have a prescription would be abuse of that, right?

So yeah.

So yeah.

I'm like, don't make me question it.

I'm like, don't make me question it.

No, no no, you did great. And this ties to one of one of the text messages we got said this. And now I don't know the context of it, but it springboards into something else. It says, I'm certain that Jesus Christ died for my sins. I'm certain that he rose from the dead. I'm certain that he wouldn't lie to us. Me too. Here's what makes me sad, though. When I see Christians living life outside of nuance, it gets rigid and scary and sad. Like, I feel sad for the person who got so upset about that.

No, no no, you did great. And this ties to one of one of the text messages we got said this. And now I don't know the context of it, but it springboards into something else. It says, I'm certain that Jesus Christ died for my sins. I'm certain that he rose from the dead. I'm certain that he wouldn't lie to us. Me too. Here's what makes me sad, though. When I see Christians living life outside of nuance, it gets rigid and scary and sad. Like, I feel sad for the person who got so upset about that.

Yeah. I mean, we're not saying that there aren't certain truths that are completely inarguable within the Bible. We are not saying that. But if we really examine it, those are actually not many. And there's plenty of others, as we just gave you several examples where there's, um, some nuance and some gray area and room for debate.

Yeah. I mean, we're not saying that there aren't certain truths that are completely inarguable within the Bible. We are not saying that. But if we really examine it, those are actually not many. And there's plenty of others, as we just gave you several examples where there's, um, some nuance and some gray area and room for debate.

It's a.

It's a.

Heart issue.

Heart issue.

It is a heart issue. And that's where even like if you acknowledge the existence of poetry and nuance. Okay. And then you listen to that speech from conclave again.

It is a heart issue. And that's where even like if you acknowledge the existence of poetry and nuance. Okay. And then you listen to that speech from conclave again.

Mhm.

Mhm.

I don't think at all that the character was saying that certainty is always a sin. I don't think that's what he meant at all. If you would have asked him, are you certain about who Christ is? He would have said yes.

I don't think at all that the character was saying that certainty is always a sin. I don't think that's what he meant at all. If you would have asked him, are you certain about who Christ is? He would have said yes.

Yeah. Correct.

Yeah. Correct.

He was talking in context that he about disunity among the cardinals, and that what was causing that disunity was the sin of certainty.

He was talking in context that he about disunity among the cardinals, and that what was causing that disunity was the sin of certainty.

Yeah, there's a lot of, um, people that are vying for the papacy in this movie. Um. Right. And they all have. Many of them have skeletons in their closet. And you find out what a lot of these are. But they're all very prideful. They're all certain that they're the best pick. And that's kind of what he was talking about.

Yeah, there's a lot of, um, people that are vying for the papacy in this movie. Um. Right. And they all have. Many of them have skeletons in their closet. And you find out what a lot of these are. But they're all very prideful. They're all certain that they're the best pick. And that's kind of what he was talking about.

You're like, don't go into this voting process certain that you know exactly who it should be.

You're like, don't go into this voting process certain that you know exactly who it should be.

And so what you can't do is take every word he says. Exactly. Literally.

And so what you can't do is take every word he says. Exactly. Literally.

It's not scripture. It's still a movie.

It's not scripture. It's still a movie.

And he was also using some. Yes, he was speaking with nuance.

And he was also using some. Yes, he was speaking with nuance.

Yes he was.

Yes he was.

And I think people sometimes do this with scripture as well, right? Where they don't understand that you can take the Bible literally true as literally true and not always take it literally.

And I think people sometimes do this with scripture as well, right? Where they don't understand that you can take the Bible literally true as literally true and not always take it literally.

Well, yeah, people want things to be black and white because it makes it easier. I'll just follow the rules, and I don't have to use my brain.

Well, yeah, people want things to be black and white because it makes it easier. I'll just follow the rules, and I don't have to use my brain.

Because it's.

Because it's.

Easier and I don't have to know what my heart is actually wanting or desiring, or the things my heart is pulling me towards because I just follow the rules. So everything has to be black or white, or a rule so that I don't actually have to know myself and know what my heart's is being pulled towards.

Easier and I don't have to know what my heart is actually wanting or desiring, or the things my heart is pulling me towards because I just follow the rules. So everything has to be black or white, or a rule so that I don't actually have to know myself and know what my heart's is being pulled towards.

And now I think someone might have spit out their coffee when they heard me say that you can take the Bible literally. True. But some things are not literal.

And now I think someone might have spit out their coffee when they heard me say that you can take the Bible literally. True. But some things are not literal.

The entire Song of Solomon is not supposed to be literal. The entire thing is a metaphor. I mean, if you were to take what that book says as the ideal woman, you'd get a very strange looking person.

The entire Song of Solomon is not supposed to be literal. The entire thing is a metaphor. I mean, if you were to take what that book says as the ideal woman, you'd get a very strange looking person.

Yes. You would. Yeah.

Yes. You would. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They.

They.

I forgot about your teeth are like goats or whatever.

I forgot about your teeth are like goats or whatever.

Your neck is like a wall or something like that.

Your neck is like a wall or something like that.

Yeah, a tower, a tall tower, maybe. Um, and I'm even thinking of when Jesus said as a hen gathers her chicks. Um, so I wish I could gather up the people that he's not calling himself a chicken. He's not calling himself a woman.

Yeah, a tower, a tall tower, maybe. Um, and I'm even thinking of when Jesus said as a hen gathers her chicks. Um, so I wish I could gather up the people that he's not calling himself a chicken. He's not calling himself a woman.

Separating the sheep from the goats. We're not actual sheep.

Separating the sheep from the goats. We're not actual sheep.

Yeah. Which is, again, why life is so much better. Christian, when you breathe and allow for nuance. Like in that speech as well. There were things Lauren said she disagreed with, yes, but she didn't go apoplectic and fall off her chair. She said, I don't agree with that. What's next? We're okay. Yeah. 44054622554405462255. There were other, uh, comments from our discussion of conclave and the sin of certainty. Here's another one just playing devil's advocate here, because I'm sure this is not what you mean, but I'm sure some people are hearing unity at the expense of principle because, okay, so when the guy talks about the sin of certainty, he says that certainty can get in the way of unity, as in, if I'm so certain that you must observe the Sabbath on Saturday that if Ron goes on Sunday, I just can't be his friend. That is a problem. Okay. That becomes sinful. It's like a no no. You can disagree on minor points of theology and still have unity. Right. And so what we are not saying is that unity at the expense of principle.

Yeah. Which is, again, why life is so much better. Christian, when you breathe and allow for nuance. Like in that speech as well. There were things Lauren said she disagreed with, yes, but she didn't go apoplectic and fall off her chair. She said, I don't agree with that. What's next? We're okay. Yeah. 44054622554405462255. There were other, uh, comments from our discussion of conclave and the sin of certainty. Here's another one just playing devil's advocate here, because I'm sure this is not what you mean, but I'm sure some people are hearing unity at the expense of principle because, okay, so when the guy talks about the sin of certainty, he says that certainty can get in the way of unity, as in, if I'm so certain that you must observe the Sabbath on Saturday that if Ron goes on Sunday, I just can't be his friend. That is a problem. Okay. That becomes sinful. It's like a no no. You can disagree on minor points of theology and still have unity. Right. And so what we are not saying is that unity at the expense of principle.

Right.

Right.

And I don't know how people can hear that unless you are so rigid. You don't understand nuance. Right. I mean, no one is saying give up biblical truth when you say certainty can be sinful, no one saying give up on being certain on anything. Excuse me.

And I don't know how people can hear that unless you are so rigid. You don't understand nuance. Right. I mean, no one is saying give up biblical truth when you say certainty can be sinful, no one saying give up on being certain on anything. Excuse me.

No.

No.

Breathe for a minute. No. It's outrageous. I don't know how people hear that. Like what causes someone to be so rigid that what they think we're saying is. Don't be certain about who Jesus is. Excuse me?

Breathe for a minute. No. It's outrageous. I don't know how people hear that. Like what causes someone to be so rigid that what they think we're saying is. Don't be certain about who Jesus is. Excuse me?

Yeah, it's not that at all.

Yeah, it's not that at all.

But how do you get in a world where that something you would presume.

But how do you get in a world where that something you would presume.

And you can be, you can be unified in, in other ways, like in Medina, we can all come together and and say we love the Christmas tree in the gazebo on the square at, at holiday seasons. And yet we can disagree about who we think would be the best mayoral candidate, or how effective the police department is, or whether garbage pickup should be on this day or that day. There's there's things that that would pull you apart from unity, that you set aside for the sake of unity. There are things you can't set aside, you know, in Christianity. That's what makes us the unique group we are.

And you can be, you can be unified in, in other ways, like in Medina, we can all come together and and say we love the Christmas tree in the gazebo on the square at, at holiday seasons. And yet we can disagree about who we think would be the best mayoral candidate, or how effective the police department is, or whether garbage pickup should be on this day or that day. There's there's things that that would pull you apart from unity, that you set aside for the sake of unity. There are things you can't set aside, you know, in Christianity. That's what makes us the unique group we are.

That's right. And that's what Jesus prayed for, that we would be known by our love for one another and our unity because of that. And like another example would be just yesterday. So my my wife and her work capacity has been had the opportunity to work with some nonprofits. And she looked at me yesterday and she goes, because we're, you know, evangelical. I've both been raised that way. She goes, Brian, the Roman Catholic Church is doing such great good in our community. Yes. I have seen so many things Roman Catholic Church is doing. I didn't look at her and go, are you converting? Did you just convert right in front of me?

That's right. And that's what Jesus prayed for, that we would be known by our love for one another and our unity because of that. And like another example would be just yesterday. So my my wife and her work capacity has been had the opportunity to work with some nonprofits. And she looked at me yesterday and she goes, because we're, you know, evangelical. I've both been raised that way. She goes, Brian, the Roman Catholic Church is doing such great good in our community. Yes. I have seen so many things Roman Catholic Church is doing. I didn't look at her and go, are you converting? Did you just convert right in front of me?

You're now a Papist.

You're now a Papist.

Do you now agree with all their theology?

Do you now agree with all their theology?

Sarah?

Sarah?

No. I was able to hear her and go. Yeah. Isn't that wonderful? Tell me more about that. I didn't see every word she's saying as a threat. And I believed that she could have two conflicting truths be coexisting.

No. I was able to hear her and go. Yeah. Isn't that wonderful? Tell me more about that. I didn't see every word she's saying as a threat. And I believed that she could have two conflicting truths be coexisting.

We've had three texts come in from Rebecca Carroll. And then another one. I don't have their name. All talking about certainty really doesn't seem to be too far removed from pride or its, you know, arrogance being like it's the opposite of humility, being willing to be wrong.

We've had three texts come in from Rebecca Carroll. And then another one. I don't have their name. All talking about certainty really doesn't seem to be too far removed from pride or its, you know, arrogance being like it's the opposite of humility, being willing to be wrong.

And I just almost like the word certainty better than arrogance. Yeah, because people can deceive themselves in thinking they're not arrogant and they're just certain that's true. And in a big way. Like I see this in evangelicalism all the time. There are people who, in their particular denomination with their favorite preacher, have decided they've got all of it figured out.

And I just almost like the word certainty better than arrogance. Yeah, because people can deceive themselves in thinking they're not arrogant and they're just certain that's true. And in a big way. Like I see this in evangelicalism all the time. There are people who, in their particular denomination with their favorite preacher, have decided they've got all of it figured out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What do you mean, all of it, Brian? Every finer point of theology. And if you disagree with them, they kind of scoff at you, and they wonder if you're saved. And it drives me nutty.

What do you mean, all of it, Brian? Every finer point of theology. And if you disagree with them, they kind of scoff at you, and they wonder if you're saved. And it drives me nutty.

Yeah. Earlier this week on Wednesday, we talked with we had a question for Doctor Melnick about eschatology. Like, what is your stance on millennial pre-millennial post? Millennial doctor has a very firm stance on what he is, but he's not going to yell and scream at you about it because, as he said on Wednesday, I'll show you where other people say that they get postmillennialism from.

Yeah. Earlier this week on Wednesday, we talked with we had a question for Doctor Melnick about eschatology. Like, what is your stance on millennial pre-millennial post? Millennial doctor has a very firm stance on what he is, but he's not going to yell and scream at you about it because, as he said on Wednesday, I'll show you where other people say that they get postmillennialism from.

And they're not idiots.

And they're not idiots.

They're not crazy. I don't agree with them. I think it's very clear, he said. But this is I can show you where they get it from, and we are just all doing our best to interpret scripture.

They're not crazy. I don't agree with them. I think it's very clear, he said. But this is I can show you where they get it from, and we are just all doing our best to interpret scripture.

Yeah. And if you are so certain about all theology, why do you even need the Bible? Why do you need the Lord? Yeah, because you've just put yourself as a co-equal to the Trinity. It's now a quartet because you're in it, right? I mean, that's really, at the end of the day, what it is. That's not a barbershop quartet, though. Well, just like a regular one. The movie conclave, which again, we don't, you know, give it our 100% endorsement on theology, but the four of us really loved it.

Yeah. And if you are so certain about all theology, why do you even need the Bible? Why do you need the Lord? Yeah, because you've just put yourself as a co-equal to the Trinity. It's now a quartet because you're in it, right? I mean, that's really, at the end of the day, what it is. That's not a barbershop quartet, though. Well, just like a regular one. The movie conclave, which again, we don't, you know, give it our 100% endorsement on theology, but the four of us really loved it.

Well, like you watch the movie date night, and I don't. That's not my theology either. Like it's a movie. Just because you watch a movie doesn't mean you agree with everything.

Well, like you watch the movie date night, and I don't. That's not my theology either. Like it's a movie. Just because you watch a movie doesn't mean you agree with everything.

Well, it's that strange tendency in Christian culture that if you say you like a movie, someone presumes that you give it your full 100% endorsement of all of it.

Well, it's that strange tendency in Christian culture that if you say you like a movie, someone presumes that you give it your full 100% endorsement of all of it.

If there's one thing wrong with it, we must discard the entire thing.

If there's one thing wrong with it, we must discard the entire thing.

So all we're left with is that, you know, nothing.

So all we're left with is that, you know, nothing.

Nothing? Nothing at all. Really.

Nothing? Nothing at all. Really.

Um, okay. So, uh, we like conclave. Interesting movie. We just aired a speech. Uh, and did it earlier this week as well, where one of the characters suggests there's a sin of certainty. And we talked about the nuance of that. He didn't mean literally. You can't ever be certain. He's just saying that certainty in some can cause sin among believers. And we think he's right. (440) 546-2255. We got Paul, who's been patiently waiting on the phone. Take it away, Paul. What do you have for us, my friend?

Um, okay. So, uh, we like conclave. Interesting movie. We just aired a speech. Uh, and did it earlier this week as well, where one of the characters suggests there's a sin of certainty. And we talked about the nuance of that. He didn't mean literally. You can't ever be certain. He's just saying that certainty in some can cause sin among believers. And we think he's right. (440) 546-2255. We got Paul, who's been patiently waiting on the phone. Take it away, Paul. What do you have for us, my friend?

Hey, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I'm involved with two situations with lifelong friends right now. Uh, when people get their doctrines and they're. They're certain that this is the way it is. This is what the Bible says. And they leave no opening for discussion. And the one is, you know, Calvinism and Arminianism and. Well, the guy won't speak to me for 40 years, 45 years I've known him and he won't speak to me because he disagrees with me. And I'm not, you know, real, uh, stout on my position. I just like to discuss stuff. Right. But some people like you, like you alluded to with your eschatology. I mean, hey, I'm right, I'm right, and that's the way it is. If you don't want to believe the Bible, then I'm not going to talk to you anymore. And I'm like, okay, and you're a Christian, right?

Hey, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I'm involved with two situations with lifelong friends right now. Uh, when people get their doctrines and they're. They're certain that this is the way it is. This is what the Bible says. And they leave no opening for discussion. And the one is, you know, Calvinism and Arminianism and. Well, the guy won't speak to me for 40 years, 45 years I've known him and he won't speak to me because he disagrees with me. And I'm not, you know, real, uh, stout on my position. I just like to discuss stuff. Right. But some people like you, like you alluded to with your eschatology. I mean, hey, I'm right, I'm right, and that's the way it is. If you don't want to believe the Bible, then I'm not going to talk to you anymore. And I'm like, okay, and you're a Christian, right?

And I'm so sorry your friendship ended over. You said it was Calvinism versus Arminianism.

And I'm so sorry your friendship ended over. You said it was Calvinism versus Arminianism.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry.

Well, I mean, I'm still open to the relationship, but, I mean, I took this guy through his divorce and everything else, too, you know? And, uh, and it it is sad because when people take the certain position, you know, like you were talking about Doctor Riddell, he's got a position, but he says, well, I can show you where other people have this position, and that's the way I am, you know? But, uh, I think some people take their certainty to the point of destroying relationships. Yes, in a lot of different areas, especially when it comes to disagreement. They take their certainty in what they believe. And it really honestly, I believe it does turn into sin, you know, because until you make that relationship right, I have another person that disagrees with me on something. They won't even come and talk. There's no, you know. Come, let us reason together. It's just. Hey, this is the way it is. And, you know, I just don't. This this kind of stuff is invading Christianity. And it makes me wonder, you know, it makes me wonder about. And like you said, they they take it to the point where, well, you're not a Christian if you don't believe what I the way I believe. Right. And I just think that's so crazy. You know.

Well, I mean, I'm still open to the relationship, but, I mean, I took this guy through his divorce and everything else, too, you know? And, uh, and it it is sad because when people take the certain position, you know, like you were talking about Doctor Riddell, he's got a position, but he says, well, I can show you where other people have this position, and that's the way I am, you know? But, uh, I think some people take their certainty to the point of destroying relationships. Yes, in a lot of different areas, especially when it comes to disagreement. They take their certainty in what they believe. And it really honestly, I believe it does turn into sin, you know, because until you make that relationship right, I have another person that disagrees with me on something. They won't even come and talk. There's no, you know. Come, let us reason together. It's just. Hey, this is the way it is. And, you know, I just don't. This this kind of stuff is invading Christianity. And it makes me wonder, you know, it makes me wonder about. And like you said, they they take it to the point where, well, you're not a Christian if you don't believe what I the way I believe. Right. And I just think that's so crazy. You know.

I think it breaks God's heart.

I think it breaks God's heart.

Also, I think the devil is trying to divide people. And if he can use Scripture to divide people, he. There's no law against him doing that right?

Also, I think the devil is trying to divide people. And if he can use Scripture to divide people, he. There's no law against him doing that right?

There it is, Paul.

There it is, Paul.

And people need to agree to disagree, you know.

And people need to agree to disagree, you know.

And just find unity in Christ. Very good.

And just find unity in Christ. Very good.

Exactly, exactly.

Exactly, exactly.

Thank you so much for the the call, Paul. I almost said the Paul call. Whatever I call you. I just won't call you late for dinner. Okay.

Thank you so much for the the call, Paul. I almost said the Paul call. Whatever I call you. I just won't call you late for dinner. Okay.

There you go, my friend.

There you go, my friend.

God bless you, brother. All right. We got another call waiting. Let's go to Cory. Cory, what did you want to share in this discussion?

God bless you, brother. All right. We got another call waiting. Let's go to Cory. Cory, what did you want to share in this discussion?

Hey good morning. Good morning family. How y'all doing this morning?

Hey good morning. Good morning family. How y'all doing this morning?

Good man. Glad glad you called.

Good man. Glad glad you called.

Good, good. Yes I saw I love you guys so much for just bringing up this topic and being able to just just have something that opens up discussion. Um, you guys do that very well. Um, so, you know, when I, when I heard it earlier in the week, um, I marinated on what you guys were saying, and, um, you know, certainty. And when you say it, um, initially you think certainty is thin and and then just from the basic level perspective, no, it's not right. But I think you guys were saying, like, if it if it marinates and it breeds and then you get into self-righteousness and pride, that's when it becomes a sin. Because I think we know that certainty just on a plain, just level perspective, that it's not because, you know, certainty, um, with, with Peter would allow him to keep walking on water. Right. Um, and certainty with what God had told Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden wouldn't have raised out for them to have the fall of man, right? So if they were certain and believed that what God said. So certainty in itself is not a sin. I think what you guys are making a distinction of is that if it breeds self-righteousness and that if it breeds pride. Am I hearing that correctly?

Good, good. Yes I saw I love you guys so much for just bringing up this topic and being able to just just have something that opens up discussion. Um, you guys do that very well. Um, so, you know, when I, when I heard it earlier in the week, um, I marinated on what you guys were saying, and, um, you know, certainty. And when you say it, um, initially you think certainty is thin and and then just from the basic level perspective, no, it's not right. But I think you guys were saying, like, if it if it marinates and it breeds and then you get into self-righteousness and pride, that's when it becomes a sin. Because I think we know that certainty just on a plain, just level perspective, that it's not because, you know, certainty, um, with, with Peter would allow him to keep walking on water. Right. Um, and certainty with what God had told Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden wouldn't have raised out for them to have the fall of man, right? So if they were certain and believed that what God said. So certainty in itself is not a sin. I think what you guys are making a distinction of is that if it breeds self-righteousness and that if it breeds pride. Am I hearing that correctly?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're not going to find Paul listing certainty as a sin. Um, and I love that you called for clarity. That's so important. And I you know, when I heard that clip for the first time when I watched the movie, I don't remember if I paused it, but I feel like I paused it and I said, wait a minute. Sin is a certainty is a sin. I don't know, how do I what does he mean? I had to really think through it. And that's why I loved it, because it caused me to really think deeply about what he meant and whether it could be true and how I feel about it. And yeah, so when someone is so certain about their their view of how Genesis ought to be interpreted, that they're willing to end a friendship over it, I think they've reached the point of sin. Their certainty becomes sinful. But I don't think the guy in the film meant that you should never be certain. The opposite is true. I mean, I'm certain about who Christ is. And so you're you're right. In fact, I think someone else mentioned. And, Lauren, you can remind me of this, that it sounds like what they're saying is pride. He sounds like he's saying pride.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're not going to find Paul listing certainty as a sin. Um, and I love that you called for clarity. That's so important. And I you know, when I heard that clip for the first time when I watched the movie, I don't remember if I paused it, but I feel like I paused it and I said, wait a minute. Sin is a certainty is a sin. I don't know, how do I what does he mean? I had to really think through it. And that's why I loved it, because it caused me to really think deeply about what he meant and whether it could be true and how I feel about it. And yeah, so when someone is so certain about their their view of how Genesis ought to be interpreted, that they're willing to end a friendship over it, I think they've reached the point of sin. Their certainty becomes sinful. But I don't think the guy in the film meant that you should never be certain. The opposite is true. I mean, I'm certain about who Christ is. And so you're you're right. In fact, I think someone else mentioned. And, Lauren, you can remind me of this, that it sounds like what they're saying is pride. He sounds like he's saying pride.

Yeah. Being prideful or arrogant. The opposite of humility.

Yeah. Being prideful or arrogant. The opposite of humility.

Putting a different label on it so people really understand how encompassing pride can be, I think.

Putting a different label on it so people really understand how encompassing pride can be, I think.

But the power of that speech was if he would have said to this group of cardinals, my biggest fear is pride is the sin of pride. They would have been like, yeah, me too.

But the power of that speech was if he would have said to this group of cardinals, my biggest fear is pride is the sin of pride. They would have been like, yeah, me too.

Yeah, obviously.

Yeah, obviously.

Yeah. Me too. All these prideful guys over here are going to bother me. When he said it differently and creatively.

Yeah. Me too. All these prideful guys over here are going to bother me. When he said it differently and creatively.

They were like, wait.

They were like, wait.

He made them think.

He made them think.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I agree. I agree completely, I just think it's so for people who have discernment of nuance, I think this is beneficial. But for those ears who don't have that discernment of nuance and have you be able to distinguish distinguish what he's really trying to say? I think it could be dangerous. Does that make sense?

Yeah. And I agree. I agree completely, I just think it's so for people who have discernment of nuance, I think this is beneficial. But for those ears who don't have that discernment of nuance and have you be able to distinguish distinguish what he's really trying to say? I think it could be dangerous. Does that make sense?

Yes, I know what you mean by that. And one of my goals is to help, um, set free people who don't live in nuance because the Christian life, I think, can be lived to its fullest. When you see, um, when you don't just see black and white, you see color and gray.

Yes, I know what you mean by that. And one of my goals is to help, um, set free people who don't live in nuance because the Christian life, I think, can be lived to its fullest. When you see, um, when you don't just see black and white, you see color and gray.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

But but yeah, I see what you mean. And I guess there's some intentionality on my part, at least, to poke the person who doesn't see nuance. I want to I want to wake them up.

But but yeah, I see what you mean. And I guess there's some intentionality on my part, at least, to poke the person who doesn't see nuance. I want to I want to wake them up.

Mhm.

Mhm.

But yeah it's a little risky. So okay. Corey really appreciate it brother. Thanks for the call.

But yeah it's a little risky. So okay. Corey really appreciate it brother. Thanks for the call.

All right. Thank you guys so much. Have a great day.

All right. Thank you guys so much. Have a great day.

You too. And you see how. Oh yeah. Hold on. Actually don't hang up yet Corey. I've learned hand signals. I thought Dario was telling me she'd like a cup of tea.

You too. And you see how. Oh yeah. Hold on. Actually don't hang up yet Corey. I've learned hand signals. I thought Dario was telling me she'd like a cup of tea.

That is what I thought, too.

That is what I thought, too.

Really? Yes. I don't, I struggle so. Corey, you stay on hold. We have maybe a mug to send him. Daria.

Really? Yes. I don't, I struggle so. Corey, you stay on hold. We have maybe a mug to send him. Daria.

Correct. That, that. That's what that was. That was mug.

Correct. That, that. That's what that was. That was mug.

She's. Yeah. She's gonna get his info so she can send him a mug.

She's. Yeah. She's gonna get his info so she can send him a mug.

And I know why she's doing that. Because I like what he did. He goes, I think I heard you say this. Is that what you like? He's looking for clarity. I don't need you to cheer for us. If you want clarity, do it. Let's go. (440) 546-2255. Uh, how are you processing all of this? My dear friend Jamie Buxton.

And I know why she's doing that. Because I like what he did. He goes, I think I heard you say this. Is that what you like? He's looking for clarity. I don't need you to cheer for us. If you want clarity, do it. Let's go. (440) 546-2255. Uh, how are you processing all of this? My dear friend Jamie Buxton.

Quietly over here.

Quietly over here.

No, that's okay, I just I wonder what's going on in your in your beautiful brain.

No, that's okay, I just I wonder what's going on in your in your beautiful brain.

Oh, well. Thank you. Um, no, I, I think I am in, um, alignment that understanding that when I think too much of myself or my, um, take on a subject, that it is usually that I am falling into, not a place of humility like that. It is of arrogance. You know, I was trying to break it down because, you know, I'm not a theologian. I, um, I like things in simple terms. And so I was just thinking about, like, if we just broke this down to how I treat my husband when I am so certain that this is what I said and how I meant it. And he interpreted that different, how that like, causes a huge rift in our relationship, right? I mean, hopefully it goes away quickly. Um, but, you know, if I stay so certain with this is what is right? And because I said so and this is my take, it does damage. And how can we not think that on a much bigger level than when we interpret Scripture or how we are going to apply Scripture and we are we have to be right, and it's the only way how that is going to be damaging to others.

Oh, well. Thank you. Um, no, I, I think I am in, um, alignment that understanding that when I think too much of myself or my, um, take on a subject, that it is usually that I am falling into, not a place of humility like that. It is of arrogance. You know, I was trying to break it down because, you know, I'm not a theologian. I, um, I like things in simple terms. And so I was just thinking about, like, if we just broke this down to how I treat my husband when I am so certain that this is what I said and how I meant it. And he interpreted that different, how that like, causes a huge rift in our relationship, right? I mean, hopefully it goes away quickly. Um, but, you know, if I stay so certain with this is what is right? And because I said so and this is my take, it does damage. And how can we not think that on a much bigger level than when we interpret Scripture or how we are going to apply Scripture and we are we have to be right, and it's the only way how that is going to be damaging to others.

Yeah. It reminds me of when I, um, I first started working at Moody. I was kind of scared of the professors on campus?

Yeah. It reminds me of when I, um, I first started working at Moody. I was kind of scared of the professors on campus?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Intimidated. I thought they would be, like theological, dogmatic meanies. And then I got to know a bunch of them.

Intimidated. I thought they would be, like theological, dogmatic meanies. And then I got to know a bunch of them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And we disagreed on some theology, and they were nothing but curious and kind. I was just, like, taken aback. Wait, you're not going to yell at me?

And we disagreed on some theology, and they were nothing but curious and kind. I was just, like, taken aback. Wait, you're not going to yell at me?

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know why? Because they love Jesus, and they don't want to fall into the sin of pride in being so certain that I'm wrong that they divide our relationship. We're chatting about a more abstract but powerful concept from a film we all liked called conclave, where one of the characters expressed his concern about the sin of certainty. And as we've discussed, it's it's not something explicitly listed in Scripture, but what he was pointing to is that division is caused on things that people are certain about that don't ultimately matter. (440) 546-2255. Looks like we've got another call. We've got Martha on the line. Good morning. Martha. Thanks for calling. Today. What do you have for us?

You know why? Because they love Jesus, and they don't want to fall into the sin of pride in being so certain that I'm wrong that they divide our relationship. We're chatting about a more abstract but powerful concept from a film we all liked called conclave, where one of the characters expressed his concern about the sin of certainty. And as we've discussed, it's it's not something explicitly listed in Scripture, but what he was pointing to is that division is caused on things that people are certain about that don't ultimately matter. (440) 546-2255. Looks like we've got another call. We've got Martha on the line. Good morning. Martha. Thanks for calling. Today. What do you have for us?

Well, I agree with these other people, you know, don't get on your radio station and say certainty is a sin. You're picking it apart. Okay. Because of pride. I listen to you guys in the morning, so I have some Jesus to start my day with. I don't want to hear something that somebody's opinion because here again, look, it says in the Bible that, you know, you shouldn't gamble. So does that mean that I'm going to, that it's a sin if I go and play bingo and can get, you know, can win a dollar 2.98 and, and with with a bunch of people just to have fun. Is that a sin? We're not going to pick it apart. I figure you guys are supposed to give me something that I. That's in the Bible. I want to ask it. Where does it say in the Bible? What book and what verse does it say? Not somebody's opinion. I can give you an opinion and say wearing red shoes is a is a sin. Are you guys going to now say that red shoes or people that have red hair. That's a sin. I don't want your opinion. I want I want to be able to walk away. Because when I turn off the video, walk away with the I got Jesus in my mind, I got I can even share it with the person I'm going to go to work with. That's my opinion. Okay.

Well, I agree with these other people, you know, don't get on your radio station and say certainty is a sin. You're picking it apart. Okay. Because of pride. I listen to you guys in the morning, so I have some Jesus to start my day with. I don't want to hear something that somebody's opinion because here again, look, it says in the Bible that, you know, you shouldn't gamble. So does that mean that I'm going to, that it's a sin if I go and play bingo and can get, you know, can win a dollar 2.98 and, and with with a bunch of people just to have fun. Is that a sin? We're not going to pick it apart. I figure you guys are supposed to give me something that I. That's in the Bible. I want to ask it. Where does it say in the Bible? What book and what verse does it say? Not somebody's opinion. I can give you an opinion and say wearing red shoes is a is a sin. Are you guys going to now say that red shoes or people that have red hair. That's a sin. I don't want your opinion. I want I want to be able to walk away. Because when I turn off the video, walk away with the I got Jesus in my mind, I got I can even share it with the person I'm going to go to work with. That's my opinion. Okay.

Well, I'm so glad you called Martha, and it sounds like we upset you and that's not something I want to do. So I certainly am so sorry that we've upset you.

Well, I'm so glad you called Martha, and it sounds like we upset you and that's not something I want to do. So I certainly am so sorry that we've upset you.

Well, but how does how do the guys figure this out, personally? From a movie on TV? Ain't nothing on TV. That's true. It's some some dude's opinion.

Well, but how does how do the guys figure this out, personally? From a movie on TV? Ain't nothing on TV. That's true. It's some some dude's opinion.

Well, you know, I guess there's a couple of ways to look at that. Like, for example, you and I may disagree on this, but like when I go to church and I listen to a sermon, what I'm hearing is a pastor's interpretation of God's God's Word. And I've met plenty of pastors who disagree about how to interpret God's Word. So at the end of the day, what they're sharing is their opinion of what a passage means. But maybe you disagree with that.

Well, you know, I guess there's a couple of ways to look at that. Like, for example, you and I may disagree on this, but like when I go to church and I listen to a sermon, what I'm hearing is a pastor's interpretation of God's God's Word. And I've met plenty of pastors who disagree about how to interpret God's Word. So at the end of the day, what they're sharing is their opinion of what a passage means. But maybe you disagree with that.

No, but I can ask my pastor, hey, where is where is is you know, you're saying that Christ died for you. Where does it say that? Oh, John 316 I can open my Bible and go, oh, here. Okay, I got it. But where can she say that? I think it was Lauren. Um, where can she say that? It says that in the Bible. Otherwise, it's just. It's just an opinion. Well, you can stand on the street corner and ask.

No, but I can ask my pastor, hey, where is where is is you know, you're saying that Christ died for you. Where does it say that? Oh, John 316 I can open my Bible and go, oh, here. Okay, I got it. But where can she say that? I think it was Lauren. Um, where can she say that? It says that in the Bible. Otherwise, it's just. It's just an opinion. Well, you can stand on the street corner and ask.

Well, but, Martha, let me just jump in and ask you this. Now, I don't think that everything in life has a verse for it, but perhaps you do.

Well, but, Martha, let me just jump in and ask you this. Now, I don't think that everything in life has a verse for it, but perhaps you do.

Well, what am I supposed to Believe I live by the Bible.

Well, what am I supposed to Believe I live by the Bible.

Oh, I totally agree with that.

Oh, I totally agree with that.

Right. But but I tried to. Okay, I the thing is, is what I'm saying is, is if is. If she's just giving her opinion and telling everybody it's a sin, then I can't be sure for anything. Nothing. Nothing at all. I can't even be sure that the Christ died for me because it's a sin. But now you're going to pick it apart and believe you know. Well, well, I can't, I can't, I can be sure of this, but I can't be sure of that. But I can't be sure of this. Wait a minute. I'll be sure of this and this and this. Well, no.

Right. But but I tried to. Okay, I the thing is, is what I'm saying is, is if is. If she's just giving her opinion and telling everybody it's a sin, then I can't be sure for anything. Nothing. Nothing at all. I can't even be sure that the Christ died for me because it's a sin. But now you're going to pick it apart and believe you know. Well, well, I can't, I can't, I can be sure of this, but I can't be sure of that. But I can't be sure of this. Wait a minute. I'll be sure of this and this and this. Well, no.

Martha, can I jump in quick? I'm hoping we can chat about this because I think there could be some misunderstanding. Would you be open to chatting about it a little bit?

Martha, can I jump in quick? I'm hoping we can chat about this because I think there could be some misunderstanding. Would you be open to chatting about it a little bit?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Now, my my friend Lauren's here, and I think you're talking about Lauren, so I would say the two of you had a chat about it. Are you okay with that, Lauren? Sure. So she's saying, as I understand it, Martha, you can correct me here that, um, you're saying that certainty is not in the Bible as a sin. And so, um, but I don't know, Martha, would you kind of paint for her what your concern is about what something she said was, I don't want to misspeak.

Now, my my friend Lauren's here, and I think you're talking about Lauren, so I would say the two of you had a chat about it. Are you okay with that, Lauren? Sure. So she's saying, as I understand it, Martha, you can correct me here that, um, you're saying that certainty is not in the Bible as a sin. And so, um, but I don't know, Martha, would you kind of paint for her what your concern is about what something she said was, I don't want to misspeak.

Okay, but you're saying certainty was a sin. But then you turned around and said, but it's not a it's not a sin, because I believe that Christ died for me. And, you know, he was born, raised and died. Okay. Now that part is certainty is a sin. So you're going to pick all sins apart. Are you going to pick everything? Well, well, you know, I, uh what's it say in the Bible? You know, um, gluttony. Well, well, let's see, I can I can go ahead and and, you know, eat this and this and this and be gone. But but but on Tuesday, you know, at 2:00. I know it's not a sin. No, it's either all or nothing. And and. Okay, I'm going to get on the radio and and.

Okay, but you're saying certainty was a sin. But then you turned around and said, but it's not a it's not a sin, because I believe that Christ died for me. And, you know, he was born, raised and died. Okay. Now that part is certainty is a sin. So you're going to pick all sins apart. Are you going to pick everything? Well, well, you know, I, uh what's it say in the Bible? You know, um, gluttony. Well, well, let's see, I can I can go ahead and and, you know, eat this and this and this and be gone. But but but on Tuesday, you know, at 2:00. I know it's not a sin. No, it's either all or nothing. And and. Okay, I'm going to get on the radio and and.

Well, hold on one second, Martha, I want I want Lauren to be able to respond to that.

Well, hold on one second, Martha, I want I want Lauren to be able to respond to that.

Sure. I think in a lot of areas in our lives, things can be sins if our heart is not in the right place. So gluttony itself is not necessarily listed verbatim as a sin, but greed is listed as sin. Overindulgence is listed as a sin. And when you are being gluttonous, that is being greedy, that is overindulgence. Drinking too much wine is listed in the Bible or, um, taking too much for yourself. Okay. So those all encompass what gluttony would be. Though gluttony itself is not listed, you can say, because gluttony is the background of gluttony. The heart behind gluttony is these things. It's a sin. And so we're saying is the same with certainty. Also you're correct. Certainty itself. The word is not listed as a sin in Scripture. But pride is. And not having any humility is. And sometimes, if your heart is not in the right place and you're certain about something and your heart is just to be correct, or your heart is to be prideful or to be arrogant, then it is a sin, because your heart is not for the things of God. Your heart is for the things of yourself. So that's what we're saying is it is a sin in some instances, and sometimes it's not. It's about where your heart is at and what you're trying, what your heart is being pulled towards.

Sure. I think in a lot of areas in our lives, things can be sins if our heart is not in the right place. So gluttony itself is not necessarily listed verbatim as a sin, but greed is listed as sin. Overindulgence is listed as a sin. And when you are being gluttonous, that is being greedy, that is overindulgence. Drinking too much wine is listed in the Bible or, um, taking too much for yourself. Okay. So those all encompass what gluttony would be. Though gluttony itself is not listed, you can say, because gluttony is the background of gluttony. The heart behind gluttony is these things. It's a sin. And so we're saying is the same with certainty. Also you're correct. Certainty itself. The word is not listed as a sin in Scripture. But pride is. And not having any humility is. And sometimes, if your heart is not in the right place and you're certain about something and your heart is just to be correct, or your heart is to be prideful or to be arrogant, then it is a sin, because your heart is not for the things of God. Your heart is for the things of yourself. So that's what we're saying is it is a sin in some instances, and sometimes it's not. It's about where your heart is at and what you're trying, what your heart is being pulled towards.

And if I can jump in here to Martha, it sounds like you're struggling a little bit with, um, some gray area in Scripture, and that's okay. It there are some things that, um, you know, we talk about nuance all the time on the show, and we're not saying that there aren't things you can't be certain about. As Lauren just said, certainty itself is not a sin. The problem is when it becomes an issue of pride. So we're not saying you can't be certain that Jesus loves you and died on the cross for you. We're absolutely not saying that because you can and should be certain about those things. But there there are certain things that fall into. Um, I mentioned earlier, sex is not a sin, but it can be in the wrong context.

And if I can jump in here to Martha, it sounds like you're struggling a little bit with, um, some gray area in Scripture, and that's okay. It there are some things that, um, you know, we talk about nuance all the time on the show, and we're not saying that there aren't things you can't be certain about. As Lauren just said, certainty itself is not a sin. The problem is when it becomes an issue of pride. So we're not saying you can't be certain that Jesus loves you and died on the cross for you. We're absolutely not saying that because you can and should be certain about those things. But there there are certain things that fall into. Um, I mentioned earlier, sex is not a sin, but it can be in the wrong context.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Does that help, Martha?

Does that help, Martha?

Yeah. I just I'm one who looks at the Bible and I say, it says what it says. It's written in black and white. Okay. I want to I don't understand a lot of the Bible. I'll give you some scriptures. I, you know, and say this doesn't match this. Okay. There's, you know, controversy. I don't understand some of it. I read it and I go, what?

Yeah. I just I'm one who looks at the Bible and I say, it says what it says. It's written in black and white. Okay. I want to I don't understand a lot of the Bible. I'll give you some scriptures. I, you know, and say this doesn't match this. Okay. There's, you know, controversy. I don't understand some of it. I read it and I go, what?

That's okay.

That's okay.

So so I, like I said, the only time I can really listen to you guys is when I drive to work, because I don't have a radio at home. Okay? So I enjoy listening to you guys because Thank you. You guys, because you guys will say, you know something about the Bible or, you know, a scripture verse or something like that. So, you know, I even I even go, go to my one patient and I go, hey, you know what I heard on CRF today?

So so I, like I said, the only time I can really listen to you guys is when I drive to work, because I don't have a radio at home. Okay? So I enjoy listening to you guys because Thank you. You guys, because you guys will say, you know something about the Bible or, you know, a scripture verse or something like that. So, you know, I even I even go, go to my one patient and I go, hey, you know what I heard on CRF today?

Oh, you do that.

Oh, you do that.

Thank you. Martha.

Thank you. Martha.

Yeah, yeah I do, I do. She's she's a real good Christian. I mean, let me tell you, when you look up Christian, the word Christian, you'll see an eight by ten picture of her. Really? I mean, she really, really. Well, she I, I go to work, and sometimes it's like I almost have a Bible study. You know, I'm a caregiver.

Yeah, yeah I do, I do. She's she's a real good Christian. I mean, let me tell you, when you look up Christian, the word Christian, you'll see an eight by ten picture of her. Really? I mean, she really, really. Well, she I, I go to work, and sometimes it's like I almost have a Bible study. You know, I'm a caregiver.

Okay, that's tough work. You do.

Okay, that's tough work. You do.

Sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes. So sometimes, you know, we'll sit down. Hey, this, in fact, we were talking about, um, uh, the Trinity and the Holy Spirit and and, you know, a couple days later, she says here and she hands me a, a study, a study book that she had here. Here, you know, to help me out, to learn this stuff. Okay.

Sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes. So sometimes, you know, we'll sit down. Hey, this, in fact, we were talking about, um, uh, the Trinity and the Holy Spirit and and, you know, a couple days later, she says here and she hands me a, a study, a study book that she had here. Here, you know, to help me out, to learn this stuff. Okay.

Well, you know, and and you brought up the Trinity, which I think is super important in this discussion because, as you know, the word Trinity is actually not in the Bible.

Well, you know, and and you brought up the Trinity, which I think is super important in this discussion because, as you know, the word Trinity is actually not in the Bible.

Correct. And it's and it says, um, we debated about whether there were three, three different people or one person with three titles.

Correct. And it's and it says, um, we debated about whether there were three, three different people or one person with three titles.

Well, and that's, you know, a path we're not going to go down at the moment. But what I would what I would tell you is that, like we're simply doing something very similar here. We're talking about principles in Scripture, and we came up with a word to illustrate those principles. Actually, we didn't come up with it. It was somebody else. We're just talking about it. But Martha, I so appreciate your passion. Your call. Love that you listen to the show. Uh, if you don't mind, could we send you a little something since you love listening to us?

Well, and that's, you know, a path we're not going to go down at the moment. But what I would what I would tell you is that, like we're simply doing something very similar here. We're talking about principles in Scripture, and we came up with a word to illustrate those principles. Actually, we didn't come up with it. It was somebody else. We're just talking about it. But Martha, I so appreciate your passion. Your call. Love that you listen to the show. Uh, if you don't mind, could we send you a little something since you love listening to us?

Sure.

Sure.

Awesome. Okay, so you stay on hold, Martha. We'll get your information, and we'll send you some mornings with Brian gear so that you have maybe a a mug to sip out of as you're helping out people.

Awesome. Okay, so you stay on hold, Martha. We'll get your information, and we'll send you some mornings with Brian gear so that you have maybe a a mug to sip out of as you're helping out people.