One thing that everybody doesn't understand. We had a an advisor. His name was Tony Casas and he was actually the deputy warden of San Quentin, so he knew a lot of those guys their history from Juvenile Hall all the way through. And one of the claims um that everybody talks about was that the reason that the m it was upset was because they showed their a story of the part of the story was the younger Um Santana was raped in prison, and everybody denies that. Well, that actually came from our advisor. According to the advisor who knew the record of all these guys had tracked them from Juvenile Hall up to San Quentin. Wholy sh it, Um, Nigel, please speed up my intro to t X so we can get into this one. A s A P. Welcome to More Than a Movie, a podcast that takes into history and mystery of American me A film directed by and starring Edward James. Almost they had a huge impact on LAO, cinema and culture. I'm your host, Alex Omado, and I'll be diving into the behind the scenes controversy every episode. I'm gonna try to peel back a layer of the story by trying to go deeper into the intentions and motives behind the film and the backlash thirty years later. Perfect. Now that that's over, I can't wait for you to hear today's interview. So here's the story. The podcast is out. It comes out every week. For the last nine weeks before it came out, we reached out to somewhere around a couple dozen people associated with the film, and as you know, most of them said no. And the reason we got those nos range from I don't want to bring heat on Edward James almost to a guy literally hanging up the phone on us when we were trying to get his wife, a former criminal defense attorney, to sit for an interview. One of those knows we got was from a guy named Danny Harrow. Daniel A. Harrow played the character of Waido in the movie American Me. He's on our own people listen, nothing better but to lame farmers, but he had a much bigger role behind the scenes. Although uncredited as such, he was Edward James almost as assistant throughout the making of American Me, and by some accounts accounts he denies, he served as a kind of intermediary between lay and the production. Whatever the case, one thing is certain, no one involved in American Me was closer to almost during the making of this film and the aftermath that followed. So Danny initially said no, but he's also friends with Daniel Vierel and Danny de la Pass the Puppets, And sometime after episode four came out, we reached back out one more time to see if Danny Harrow would talk to us now that he got a chance to see the type of podcast we were making, and he said, yes. What you're about to hear now is that rumor busting type of interview that we've been looking for from someone who would have had a clear vantage point from the movie side of things. We'll hear from someone on the Mexican mafia side of things next week, so make sure you're subscribed to and follow the show so you don't miss it. We're gonna learn more about how Danny Harrow came to work for Almost later in the episode, but for now, let's just let the interview roll for a bit, because there's a lot in there we've been waiting to hear. Oh, and you're gonna hear the voice of my producer Nigel dwar a lot in this one because we needed to make sure we got the fact straight and he's an actual investigative journalist. Well, what I think is significant there is that what you're saying, if I'm hearing you correctly, is Edward James almost didn't make this stuff up. Whether you believe the account of this Warden or not, the representations of what are in the film are based on research that Edward James almost did prior to shooting the film. That's something that I think that's out that that people think Eddie made up and he didn't. He did not, Well, he maybe didn't make that up. He did choose to add it to the film based on the word of a corrections officer who was actively building a case against Amy. What Tony Cosass motives to lie to almost could have been we can only speculate. I have to imagine he knew something like that in the movie would engender a response from the Mexican mafia. Either way, I don't take Casas at his word, and I'm guessing in retrospect almost wishes he hadn't either. When Sixty Minutes interviewed Gossa, he certainly was aware of the effect that the scene in question had, and the news segment reports as fact that it was a complete work of fiction. Tony Kasas a retired assistant prison ward and worked with Almost on the film. He says la Amy was extremely upset by a scene in which one of the gang's founders was raped in juvenile hall. The incident never happened, and the gang considers homosexuality of any kind on affront to witz machismo. Within a year, three people who served as consultants on the movie were murdered, including anti gang activist Anna Lizarraga, my producer Nigel Dora. There's there's just two things. And I realized that you can't speak thanks to um the you can't sally speak to me as you were not. But there's two things we do want to hit from the stuff that the Trio put the magazine stuff and has been repeated. The first one is this quote where he says I was talking about up with names. Almost Trio says I saved his life, and he won't admit that, meaning that he saved his life from the gang. I mean, I I can't speak to that. The only thing I know was that I mean I followed some of the the stories, and there was a sixty minute, uh, sixty minute report that had this secret meeting taped. I don't know if you've seen that. And they had people talking about Eddie and putting the hit on Eddie. You're saying something bad about so, I mean, why it hasn't happened. I mean, I'm glad it hasn't obviously. Uh if that's Trejo, if he claims that, I couldn't say yes or no on that. Uh. We just had I mean Eddie and had access to a little bit pretty much a lot of info from the police agencies about what was going on and things like that. I know, in my particular situation, I had a solidado following me, which when I was called into you know, to to be questioned by the FBI in the U. S. Attorney's office. This was before those indictments came down. Um, you know, it was funny. They were like I had like ten lawyers in front of me, and and they were trying to say, well, you know, we know you're you want to tell the truth. What do you mean what can I tell you? Well, we know that your brother was a police officer. You know if Highway patrol officer, we know your sister and your other brothers in the fire department. I said, wow, what else you know? And we know you want to tell the truth. I said, really, I don't know what to tell you. So they began to systematically present evidence that one I was followed. I used to have, um each week, I have dinner down in a little Tokyo. And then they said, well, we picked somebody up that was watching you. And I said, how do you know? He says, well, we when we popped them, we looked at the stuff you had, and he had my name and where I was going. So that that, I mean, that frightened me, you know, But um, it just I knew instinctively that there was nothing that I could say. I mean with my own legal background. I mean, could I actually identify a voice put it with a person? No, you know, um, could I you know, is there anything I could offer that they already didn't know? I mean, they had enough on those guys, They had them, you know, I think I told you box They they that particular case broke them up in terms of they sentenced them and sent them throughout the United States. They the concentration of those guys in California state penal system was then broken. Well. Emmy was founded in the California prison system back in nineteen fifty six on the principle of self defense. Hispanic inmates were forced to band together to protect themselves from other prison gangs like the Arian Brotherhood and the Black Guerrilla Family. But within a matter of years they went from prey to predator season control of prison rackets, gambling, drug distribution, protection and today they still control the inmate populations at most prisons in southern California. So they couldn't whenever they were bringing people to court, they would all be together and there was information passed and all that stuff, you know, and and that broke that up. So whatever they felt the government had against Eddie was nothing compared to, uh, you know, the more serious charges. I think at the end they ended up atting a charge. Um, I forget exactly what it was, not eighten and Benny, but court threats through intimidation and chorus, and that was the last charge and eventually dropped it. In the state of California opened a new prison called Pella in Bay State Prison, a first of its kind facility intended to keep dangerous inmates and high profile organized crime figures in almost twenty four hour isolation. The word is out among convicts. The one place you don't want to go is Skeleton Bay. That's what the inmates they are called Pelican Bay State Prison in California, and you sure don't want to end up in the security housing unit there, known as the Shoe, the toughest maximum security prison in the United States. The state of California that runs it proudly proclaims it's the wave of the future, designed to isolate prisoners who they insist are out of control, too violent, too unpredictable to be housed with a run of the mill murderers and rapists. Joe Morgan was transferred to this facility, according to stories from the Old Yard Book One by jam Fitzmorris, which chronicles two decades inside max custody federal penitentiaries. Danny Trejo claims that Morgan called him from prison to discuss the film American Me, but this seems highly unlikely given the restrictions placed on prisoners there at the time. Hime, a theory supported by a former high ranking member of the Mexican mafia who described the phone call between Morgan and the Shoe at Pelican Bay and Trejo as quote impossible end quote. So we put the question of communication between the gang and the outside to Harrow. So what do you know about conversations between members of the film's production and Joe Morgan or members of the film's production and members of the Mexican Mafia before the film was made. Well, they're the only communication that we had. Um. And what's interesting was that the script was read. Really I remember Hazard Park. We read the script. We sat down and did a reading in front of a person who's no longer with his name was Charlie Brown. Um. There was Anna Lisa, who unfortunately was was was murdered. UM. We were of the impression that the the script was approved because of the context that the contact that you know, Charlie Brown had. My understand was Charlie Brown was the person that operated the MS business and Hazard right, so he was there u in. Anna also indicated that she had contact high up in the ring. So we were on the impression that everything was okay. After the script was read, the comments UM were positive that again it was presented that this was an effort to try to reach the young people to stop the generational uh entering, the generational continuation of violence in prison. Right. I wanted to just ask one more thing about Anna, since you knew her, can you just tell us what was she like when she was a lot? Like? What was what's the person on a Lisa? What was she liked? Well, she was very um very adamant, very determined to break the silence of gain violence in her life. And that was always the foundation of why she was working on this, that she believed in this project and why she participated to the degree. Uh. She knew what was at stake, and that was her the new generations of her family coming. She looked back and saw the generations prior that had entered into that game life surrounded by that, and um, uh said, this is my effort to try to stop it. You know, I had heard that that the reason she was, you know, killed, because she was ratting things on people out and this and that. I have no idea you know about that, and we can't know. But but what about what about her personality? Like what was it like interacted? She would she was funny. She would joke around a lot, serious but funny. You know, that's serious about taking her work, but knew how to knew how to celebrate or have a good time, you know. UM, very kind woman, very respectful of people. UM, very sympathetic in many ways. And uh, just just I think she saw American me as a way. This was her way out, a way to help her family out, you know. Again one films. You know, it's just a very minute issue of how to address the problem. You know, it's probably out of twenty ways to how to change gangs in this country, this American me would be a maybe one or half of one. But I think to participate in something like that that was close to her heart. She was all excited. She was every day she was advising, helping, could go to ask a question to her. She's always there to help, you know. So just a very it was a total shock. I mean I was blown away when that happened. Yeah, but a very kind woman, you know, and dedicated and focused. If those are things that helped describe her. Yeah, I just remember the guy that came out of the joint was throwing the ball with us, and that's our adult figures. So we wanted to be like them. We're gonna emulated them and emulate them. So Um, you know, we were under the impression that understanding that we were doing this not because for sensationalism at all, and he's never done that. Um. Every story he's told is to be is trying to reflect history, reality, truth, not sensationalizing it. Um. But we were under the impression that after reading it, that it had been approved. And so that's the reason, you know. Uh So if people say, well, you talk to the wrong people, I don't know. I can't say. All we knew was that those were the groups that were guiding us, those individuals, and they basically, you know, I remember Charlie Brown like they called him mumbles. Uh, he just kind of said, you know, boodyoo. You know that was just And I thought, again, Anna, to her credit, God bless her, had come from a generation of that where her brother and her her uh sister, a lot of her family members had entered into that world. So I think she had made a decision that this is it's going to stop because she had a new grandchild as I can remember, and she said, this has to stop. We cannot continue with this. So if this work is to do that, and I believe it is, then yes, I'm for it. So, but still we were told that it had been cleared from the higher ups. The purpose of the meeting was to find to present the final script, I mean in the sense of any changes. You know, it was a read through, you know, when you sit down and you read at the table. Except aiding myself and I see other people were reading it. But the purpose was to read it and get any feedback, get any kind of input, you know, And so it was it was pretty much to the reading people. I thought it was good. There wasn't any disagreement. There wasn't anything that was you know, discussed that indicated any kind of this is not going to fly, this is wrong, this is not now. It could be the I mean, I'm just speculating that maybe they didn't quite understand it. That's always a possibility. But as far as you know, we understood that it was approved. This is in the house hazard Yes, well it was an honest house and she lived right at the top before he entered into the hazard. Um typical house, living room, working class. You know, tables were set aside, and you know there was on it. There was Charlie Brown, um any myself, I cannot remember other people, but I mean there might have been two other people that were reading with us. I'm not sure, but it was pretty much just we were there to you know, present and hear any kind of feedback and that kind of stuff. Um, I mean, we have our community involved in gangs, and I know for a fact, just my own experience being in fulsome I mean I looked at you know, year old kids, twenty four year o kids that are doing life life, and they've got this look on their face like what am I doing here? You know, It's just I mean, I could have been taken it too far, but you know, we I remember having a meeting with the inmates and the people that were going to be working with us. I think there was about two d people that were considered trust that would work with us in the scenes. And Eddie asked this question. It's it's consistent throughout any time he's been at the institutions, even adult institutions. How many you individuals have had older brothers or sisters or fathers, mothers that have been served time. Okay, how many of you have younger brothers or sisters? Then how many would would have you would like your younger brothers or sisters to follow into your footsteps. No one's ever raised their head. Then help us make this film. That was the plea we're doing something to try to break that. You've already said you don't want your brothers or sisters. But guess what, how come you're here, so obviously you're following. The generation will be aware of it. Now let's let's stop it, let's break it. And from that point on we had I mean, because again, if the inmates didn't want us there, we would have been gone. Not that, not the prison officials. They don't run the prisons, the inmates. So to be put out that scene, the right scene in the prison, that was like a full twelve hours. That was hot. I remember that day, and those inmates stayed outside, you know, out of their cell. So you're telling me that, you know, I mean, that would have worn off pretty fast, you know, to be out there and hot sin while some stupid film crews out there making a film. I don't think there's ever been a movie in the history of cinema that has taken over prison like that, you know, where you've had the cooperation of the inmates. So I mean, you know, back to Trejo, I I mean, there are some things you know, from his perspective, and I'm not challenging that he might have said that, but I don't ever remember that ever happening that because during that time there were still threats and I always thought personally, I said, well, they don't necessarily have to get at Eddie, but they can get at him through getting people around him. And they never communicated with you. I never had. I never had a direct communication other than I spoke to people who called the office. They would call, they would call the office to try to speak to Eddie to try to either get the script or try to find out why, you know, what was he thinking, you know, things like that. I never got into it detailed, but I know they called, and I just turned every communication that I got, I turned it over to Tony Kastas. Now i'mbeknownst to us Tony Casas was working with the government at that time. We've mentioned that Tony Cosas was the guy who allegedly fed almost that story that would become the underlying inspiration for the Santana rape and Juby scene. And now we're seeing that the filmmakers were kind of duped by Casas, who was working on an investigation with the FEDS into the dealings of the Mexican mafia in prison. Are you a snitch if you're already a cop? Or no? Coming up? We hear how the production communicated with members of the Mexican Mafia during the making of American Me. Welcome back to More Than a Movie. American Me. I'm Alex Fometto. We just heard from Danny Harrow that a California prisons official was actually the source of the most contentious element of the script, the rape scene associated with Mexican Mafia founder Cheyenne Gena. And I think that's that led to how we got involved with the government's thing, because Tony was basically collecting whatever he could, any kind of evidence that could be turned over to the FBI and the Justice Department. They'll go after these guys. So unbeknownst to us, we had, you know, people that were kind of working. So so I want to touch a little bit on these phone calls. What were what were they like and what did you say? Hey, can I speak to Edward James almost Well, he's busy right now, going to take a message. Well, I'm so and so, and I'd like to talk to him about the script and I mean by then we already kind of like, you know, heads up, what's going on. So I've just taken name number, you know, pass it on and that was it. I don't think Eddie ever responded to them, but I think all of the information about the phone calls went to Tony Kasas, and you said that they felt like they were trying to get information on well sure, I mean, you know, later on in his book he talks about wanting to reach out to Eddie, you know, trying to find out, you know, what was going on when he was thinking. I mean that that you know, I can't see a percent, but why would they call what? Maybe to threaten him or I don't know, but it never got farted in the phone calls, and so you never, you never. One of the things we heard was that you were you were credited will use that word with helping get the script to the Mexican mafia in prison. Sounds like maybe, right, yeah, this first time I heard of that. So no, I had I one. I would not do anything that was outside whatever instructions were given to me by Eddie, Nor would I do anything like that. You know, somehow because of the delicateness of this of the story and the the overall shooting and just severity of the project. You know that wouldn't I would not do that. I wouldn't know who to reach out anyway. I don't sure. Well they were reaching out to you, it sounds like, but you also had contact, but Charlie Charlie Brown Modricuez right, right, and that but that was not That was only when we um met with him collectively. I never met with him privately or anything like that. Can you tell me what you remember about Charlie Brown. Like I said, one of his nicknames was Mumbles. He was very you know, he he's mumbling. So that was it. I mean again, the contact that I had primarily was with Anna. Yeah, so guys like Charlie Brown, I really had no business. How does he even get involved in the film? And it makes sense, right because Charlie professional, right, But I guess Charlie Brown, from my understanding, Charlie Brown was the designated um crime boss for them within uh, within Hazard. So that's who made that connect. Who made that? Well, we knew that. I guess we heard it from Anna or something. We kind of verified who everybody was, and I guess where I'm headed is like somebody's gotta go excuse me, sir? Are you Mr? Brown? Yeah? Well, I think again we left. We relied on Anna. It was pretty honest with us, and and she, you know, as far as I knew everything she told us, we believed and again telling us that she got the okay. I remember that we had gotten the okay, that the script was fine, and I came from Anna. I want to walk back to something you just said a second ago. The government, whether it was the FBI, California DJ whomever, it sounds like the FBI made you guys, unwitting, unknowing collaborators and an investigation that you didn't know you were a part of. Right, you're a lawyer, what do you think about that? I think it was it was wrong. I mean it calls in the question, you know, the intent of Tony cosas you know, in the aftermath of American Me, Almost was called to testify before a federal grand jury. The original indictment and the racketeering case against Lamy stated that the gang had tried to extort property and money from Almost and wanted to kill him following the movie. According to law enforcement sources, the extortion count was dropped from the indictment when the actor indicated he had nothing to say regarding the threats against him. He has also refused to talk to us about the case. Is this the Shryock case is a big reco case with Raymond Shryock and all those big Mexican I see, so he brought you in. This is the prospect way after the commicides and everything. This is a couple of years later. Yeah, okay, okay, So so this is the big Rico charge. The first time rico has ever been used against the violent criminal gang before that, they had not been used before the Rico case. And you're telling me that they brought you guys in three years later, at least you they tried to. They they eventually added an additional charge, right, and um uh. It was like crazy man. It's just there was no need for that. They had enough on these guys. They didn't have to throw you know. I guess they felt a little cherry on the top for good faith. But they the good thing is they dropped it. They dropped that charge and we never had to go to court. The only thing I had done was I went in front of a grand jury to give my testimony did ever, James almost also gets a peinot by the grand jury. So one more thing on Charlie Brown, and then I want to move on. So one of the things we heard about him, and possibly one of the reasons why some of this went sideways, is because he was a drug addict. That was alleged right when you were around him. Did he give you any reason to believe that he was not, you know, totally coherent. I had heard that he used heroin, that he used drugs. I mean he didn't, he wasn't used well, from what I can tell, he wasn't using the day we were reading the script, right, and I didn't. Again, I had no connection to him independent of what we were there for. That was the only day you interacted with him. I knew of him. I know of him. I had seen him because we were shooting, so I knew who he was. People sit there soon so and I pointed out, but that was it. I didn't know it. Yeah, obviously we don't. We don't want to spend the whole time on this kind of stuff. But the last part that is of significance is is what happened to where James almost afterwards and the allegation as it goes. You know, we know for a fact that he applied for a concealed weapons permit. Um, there's certain things that are just known. Um, we know for a fact because the internet remembers all that he has. I think I have found one instance of him even talking about American me since since the year it came out. Um uh. And it was it was an impromptu question at a film school because as we know, he like spends countless hours. I don't know how the guy has so much time in between his career to like go to all these functions with these young filmmakers, but he does, and bless him, and and that was it. And so part of the reasoning was that he was extorted essentially, that like the Mexican mafia went to him. And we have heard as something you know, there's like insane rumors about a million dollars, but what the the figures that seemed to be more down to earth were about a hundred to fifty thousan dollars that he was asked to pay and that he did pay, and that as a result, essentially all sort of harm that would come his way, you know, went away. He doesn't have to worry about that stuff anymore. Um, what's your experience of the threats and aftermath that came to him as a result of that. Give you Eddie's response to something like that. Do you think if if anybody gave money, if you give me a hundred fifty dollars and I'll leave you alone. So somebody gives you, think they're going to stop? That's that's the simple answer that if you say yes to any of that, it won't end. They can always go back, well, we need another hundred fifty and we're gonna do you see what I'm saying. So so that's the answer right there. It's preposterous. I mean, I think that's a I think that's a very viable, uh answer. However, I think from what we've learned from our source within Liama, they see themselves as a business, right. And so if I was running a business and my business revolved around me telling you you better give me fifty dollars, you're gonna die, and then I asked for thy tholls, and then I asked for another and another another, Probably people are going to stop paying me. But if you give me through tho dollars, and then I don't kill you. Well, then we've completed a business transaction. Turned that around. Give me another fifty. I'm going to kill you. I mean you always have that as you're operating motive operandi. You know, I have your your life in my hands. So how value is fifty? Is fifty or is it more? I mean, think about it for you know. I mean that's unfortunately way these guys operate. So so without being specific to my answer, that's the answer that gives you the the idea of whether there's truth in that or not. Does that make sense? It does, regardless of whether he paid. Would you be able to confirm that at least the extortion threat was made. I couldn't. I'm sure you know, I'm sure at some point they try and but from my uh understanding it, I'd never heard of it. I read about that. I read about that. I never had any conversations with It's not something you yeah, yeah, it's yeah. I mean I'm sure that people thought about it, um you know, from that side, and thought about money, But I don't think that ever I heard I read about it. I never heard anything Eddie's telling me anything about that. So I want to talk about Edward James almost and the movie and how Edward James almost sort of comes to be in the position that he's in. But I want to talk about it in terms of your experience of this guy, right, because you were living in Arizona. Right, you're a public defender. Can you tell me the story of how you came to meet Edward jams All? Well, you know we, uh, I was working also in a civil rights law center name tuc Sound Coalition for Justice, and we were working on a lot of the same unfortunate things that occurred today, you know, police brutality, mistreatment of undocumented people, murder on the border of undocumented people. So a lot of those things were going on. And the night two, there was a movie that came out on PBS called The Battle of Cortez, which is a classic. I think it's one of any's best films. Um And for those who may not not know about the story, but it's a true story. In nineteen o one, this Tejano was accused of stealing a horse and because of one mistranslated word, yeah, what goyo female horse, male horse? Uh, it created multiple murders. The Texas Rangers, who were notorious for killing Indians and Mexicans at that time, Chase Cortez for eleven days, all up and down throughout Texas to plant, and the planes killing Mexicans as they went along. They finally caught them, and uh, there's an incredible scene, uh if you haven't seen the film where Eddie's comes to realization that all of this because of a word. And I thought that that film would be incredible for our community. What we were doing. I had no idea how to get it. I knew Eddie, I heard about it Ward James almost. I just started picking up the phone, calling, hey, you try this number about five, seven, ten, twenty leads. So finally, yeah, I could take a message for eight. Okay, great, great. So you know I didn't exactly and I didn't this three I think, so, I you know, I didn't expect Eddie to call me. I thought, you know, a big actor, an assistant would call and he goes, hey, is Danny is Edward James Alm was like, well hey Eddie, so he goes, yeah, listen, we'd love to bring you out to uh Tucson. We'd love to show the film. H And at that time, Eddie was in the process of trying to convince Hollywood that a film that aired on television could be redistributed theatrically and you can make money off of it. The feeling was no way, when something's on TV, that's the kiss of death and forget about it. So Eddie was committed to say no, this film has a has a life of its own and we could get it distributed ahead of his time, ahead of his time, so so, you know, he was I said, hey, I'd love to bring you out show the film. Great. You know, he wasn't making a lot of money at the time. You know, he wasn't before Miami Weis and I think he was right after zoot Suit and I think he'd done wolf In, you know, so he was getting to grow, but he wasn't where he was. So he said, hey, do you think you can cover some expenses? I said, yeah, well, you know, thinking we could try to you raise money for you You'll raise money for our tuc Sound Cooldership for Justice. Okay, so sure enough, if we pick a date. He comes out and he's carrying these cans of film and I had no idea, you know, Okay, it's the film and unbeknownst to me, those thirty five millimeter prints. You have to use two gigantic projectors, right, project doors And I'll get back to that word. So you know, no problem, don't even discuss it. I think he thinks I know what I'm doing, which I didn't. So we took him. He said, look, take me to classes. Take me. We took him to some Indian reservations out there the Pima tribe. Filled his day of talking and meeting with kids. Okay. So um, the night of the screen, he goes, okay, you're ready. You got to project doors? Ready? And I said project one projector? He said, no, man, you need to project this. So this is just about he was ready to go on stage, you know, prior to the to the film, so we had it was in Tucson High School. They were about fift dred people jammed and so I saw Eddie, it's gonna take us two hours to get up to Phoenix and go to this location and get the project doors bring them back. Okay. So he you know, I got my crew go up there to drive and I hung out and I have never before seen anyone hold an audience for two hours where he sang, danced, He did scenes from El Pachuco talked about life. It was amazing. He held, he held, he held the audience and I guys got back. Then we got a projectionist and knew they were doing They saw the film. I'm guessing he was very gracious about it. Well he was, he was. I mean, I think he he realized he was dealing with amateurs at the time. Later on, as we went on, NAIMI was like, pretty strict, but we gotta do and I understand as a filmmaker you want your work presented in the best possible line. Right. Well, what happened was I quit. I resigned because so anyway, we had this big dance for him. We raised I think a couple of thousand for him, made a couple of thousand for us. It was like, hey, great. So he says, hey, listen, man, he says, at the end of the night, I'm taking him back to this hotel. He said, would you consider coming back and working with me? You know, I love the work we were doing, but I thought, wow, if we could make the kind of change that I would like to do with the imagery of ourselves, that could be worth it. So, uh so I quit. Coming up, we'll hear more from Danny horror about Edward James almost the actor and Edward James almost the activist. But first, my apologies to Kyle one seven one seven one seven one seven one seven one welcome back. This is more than a movie. I'm Alex Fumetto. We're talking to Danny Harrow, who helped take one of almost his earliest movies on a barnstorming tour across the country. He is somebody that I remember was always willing to give time wise. I mean, I remember there were several actors that I met because of Eddie Row. Julia was one of them, you know, and his his focus, his focus, and our little quick story about all Julia we I think he was doing nine on Broadway at that time, and um so we Eddie myself had dinner with him and his new wife, who was Jewish. He wasn't Puerto Rican, I mean not that she couldn't be Puerto Rican Jewish, but I mean she was non Latina and so New York you kind of just blend in. Nobody is gawking. But the man was so loud, and he had just come off the stage and he was he was just he was just like whisper Eddie. You know that, And it's like I was just thinking, is anybody you know? Because everybody's chattering? But I just laughing. He grew up in Miami, Okay, he knows he couldn't hell that were so loud. He couldn't help it, I guess because he was right off the stage. So maybe he's still hyped. But he was just very loud. It's just how That's what I remember about Ogilia is very loud, very friendly, very loving, and he and Eddie drew very close. Well, it's but it's what's interesting, is okay. So Edward James almost one of the themes in this podcast is very James almost the artist and Edward James almost the activist, right, and that those two things interweave and inform each other. Um, And so you seem to be brought on I mean, yes, definitely the work about of Gregorio correct Cortez. But I have to imagine a lot of your kind of act more activist oriented work. But then you just said that you're an actor, So I would like to know how you went from a public defender to whittle. And when I grow up, I'm going to be something else too. I keep changing. But but no, I I you know it was because I'll never forget um. I was, let's see seventy seven, I graduate from law school and seventy and I saw zoot Suit, zoot suited Lert. It's incredible. Man. I wonder if Louis Valdez understands, like we've already talked to this audience is exhausted with me talking about fucking zoot suit. I get it, But do you see what I mean? I keep going back to this fucking play because it's like both the puppets, uh sal Lopez like obviously Edward James almost now we're here sitting talking to Danie Harror and he's like, well, I saw this play. It was called Zusu. It's like, it's fucking This play changed so many lives, a lot of impact, a lot of impact. And I think I remember Andy Garcia talking about, of course, I can tell you that originally meeting Eddie and being involved with a bellot gonna go to Cortez, he had pretty much the same goals, you know, and that was to tell this incredible story, tell our history, begin to show Hollywood that hey, we we matter, we have the numbers. I think that's always been there. Um, did America me sharpen his focus? Um? Could be. I never talked him about that. I pretty much think that it's just a continuation of Eddios just who he is. Yes, that somehow he would create some some path to be able to achieve what did he really tell Michael Man No five times? I believe that, Yes, I've heard that story. Um, you know, and he always says that you say no and they keep coming back and giving you one for him. Yeah, but I guess they wanted Eddie and uh, he fought to try to get a contract that if he was ready to do projects, that he would be given so he could do more bad of But at that time it would have been the project on his mind when he's going Latino projects, it's the one you worked on. Yeah, yeah, And and so I think he saw that where he was headed with that. Didn't necessarily want to get bug bogged down with television a series, but you know, probably thought that he could create a character that would be unique and different, and obviously it was. He got an Emmy for that for Lieutenant Castile. I do believe his will is such that he's pretty insistent on what he wants, and people generally, I've seen people been to his will for the most part, I've also seen po will be upset about it. I mean, he's had some, uh with other known directors problems, but for the most part, it's almost like, how can you say no to his mission? You know, in terms of what he wants to do. If you're a director or running a project that has you know, and you see it has some kind of moral, political, social relevance in an industry that's lacking, most people are gonna say, you know, I respect what you're doing and I want to work with you because of your artistry, your skill set, but I also want to accommodate your schedule he said. He said he made more. Yeah, that's that's true. Yeah, well, I mean I don't have a lot more. I want to know if you had any follow ups that I forgot about, just a couple. In an ideal world, you'd be sitting here at some point. We would have got you at some point, and a different point we would have every James almost sitting here. Obviously he's not going to talk about this this movie. The only thing I want to know on that score is one of the things we've been talking about this podcast, is that this movie was intended to prevent violence. Uh in a way. You know, some of the events cause some violence, and I don't know how he falls on that. Does he do you think? And maybe you can't say, but for me, I wonder does he look at this experience and say I should never have fucking done that, or does he look at it and say it was misinterpreted and it didn't go away I wanted to go. Or does he say that's kind of how it went and that's that's that's history and that's life. I would say that he very much loved Anna, was very close to Anna, and if if we had the ability to see what was to take him, but it was going to take place, I don't think, you know, he would have continued. I don't think in our wildest dreams, even though we were indirectly aware of the Dane jurors or directly where the dangerous you know, we thought that this would possibly happen. So it was unexpected. Um, I do know. I can speak to the intent, and it was really that the reason this film was made was to try to reach our young people. Um. You know, I think that at the core. That was what he was trying to do. And as you try, if you're if your intentions are pure, and the results are negative, I guess that's like wow, you know, it's shocking. But his intent was to do that. I well, to that point, I can say this, I know for a fact, being in the airport together or by myself, I can speak to people coming up and and saying, you know, and I'm glad you made that film because I took my son and my daughter, my daughter who were very curious about gangs, and when they saw that film, they might have been on the fence and they fell off the so called wantabes. You know. Now, uh, this is just my opinion. For those people that were deep into it already, it probably had the effect of like I can't wait to be like Santana, you know, but those people already in it. But I think for the people that the generations are, the young people that thought about, hey, this is kind of interesting, it's cool, put the brakes on and take a look at what it's really like, what gain life is really like. And most people that have been in it, to a person said this film is important to do because I we want our young people to realize, if you're going to get involved in this, then this is these are these comments were fermment people. If if you're going to join us, then we want you to really know what this is about so you have no excuse. And then I guess my last question is you're you say I and I and I agree with you, like you know, you make a movie. The movie itself is not going to stop whatever cause it is. Um do you think Edward James almost would agree, well, yes and no. The images that how powerful the imagery that comes out of this community, out of Hollywood, of television films, how important that is that it shapes our minds. So to say that if we argue, because a lot of arguments come about that all they see us in Hollywood gang bangers and you know, and there are elements to that, and there's there are some true stories within that, but is that all we are? No? Absolutely, and the issue the argument is we need to tell more of the all the other sides to our community. But I think Eddie would and I agree, I would say this, but he would think this was an important film to make. It definitely was the imagery that we see of ourselves carries to this day. What we see, how they see, how they see us are Do they just see us as gang members? People's society? You continue that that that image, the negative image. No. I mean he's done standing delivery, He's done other things. That was one aspect that he was interested in because he saw the high number of our of our kids in the communities getting into game. My dude was a space admiral, you know what I mean, let's not that you know the first he says, the first alien in space, like you know, and he said it said it was funny. Yeah. On our second to last episode of the season, we finally sit down with someone who had direct knowledge of this whole situation from the inside, a high ranking former member of the Mexican mafia, the prison gang. The movie American Me was based on Edward James almost scared to death, right, I get that. You know, he put it for a license for a concealed weapon. He left the country for a while and you really didn't have to. He scared himself. He's seen his own demons, you know, he created his own team is you know, he was seeing ghosts in every corner. That's on the next episode of More Than a Movie. American Me More than a Movie. American Me is a production of Exile Content Studios in partnership with I Hearts podcast Network and Trojan Horse Media. The show is produced by me Alex Fumeto at Angry Yuka on the internets, and our senior producer is Nigel Dora. Our executive producers are Rose Red, Nando Vila and Korean Taps. Production assistance from Sabine Jansen. Mixing and sound designed by Guado Albornos. Our executive producers at I Heart are Gisel Bances and Arlene Santana. For more podcasts, listen to the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.