Welcome to Monster d C Sniper, a production of I Heart Radio and Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent those of I Heart Media, Tenderfoot TV, or their employees. This episode includes testimony and argument from trial transcripts read by voice actors. Portions of these transcripts are excerpted for the purposes of this podcast. Listener discretion is advised. We won, we won. That's Malvo's defense attorney Tom Walsh. I remember standing in court when that verdict came in, standing right at the side them, and that was it. That was it. We won. If you understood the case, it was basically just two outcomes. They win, they get death, we win, he gets life. And when they came back on December twenty three with life, that was it. Teenage sniper Lee mal Vou escaped the death penalty less than a month after his older part nor John Mohammed, was handed the ultimate punishment. Victims and their families were stunned when people heard the judge say life without parole. People screamed out, as if he was acquitted. You know I understood the emotion those people had because they thought justice would be the same penalty that Mohammed got. That boy, he's not going to change. He's not going to change his mind, he's not going to change his herd. Who's the point to have that guy in jail. He's a monster. I don't expect anything from him. I just expect for him not to have a good life, because he doesn't deserve a good life. Ultimately, the chest Peak jury found him guilty of capital murder and they gave him life. Chesapeake has never given anybody the death penalty. But that's the way it is. And I believe in the jury system. And if your neighbors think you shouldn't get death, and that's the way it goes. Personally, I think he should have he knew exactly what he was doing. Malvo sitting in Red Onion Prison. It's one of the nation's supermax is. It's a very stark facility. He's spending twenty three hours a day in a very small cell. He has no physical interaction with any other inmates, and barring some outcome from the resentencing, he will likely be there for the rest of his life. I was okay with life without parole. Now we're dealing with the situation where maybe someday he will walk the streets again. Having grandchildren, do I want to take the gamble that in their lifetime he will walk the streets and take the gamble that he's going to be fine and not revert back to something crazy. There is a ruthless person on the loose. What I nerves this community the most is the randomness of the murders, ordinary people doing ordinary things. They killed the people in one day and then went on the rampage for the next month. It is quite a mystery. The police say they have never had a crime quite like this. Be careful, these guys are using weapons that are gonna go right straight through our bulletproof vest. From My Heart Radio and Tenderfoot TV, this is Monster DC sniper Lee Boyd Malvo was sent to red Onion State Prison in the Western party of Virginia, where he would serve his life sentence. Red Onion is one of the strictest super max prisons in the country. After he was incarcerated, he started talking to people about what had happened, and the details he provided changed the case in ways that no one anticipated. One of the people he talked to was Anthony Meoli, the criminologist who helped Malvo write his autobiography. What we know is the d C Snipers is really the United States Snipers. They shot people from Washington to Arizona to allegedly Florida, South Carolina, North Carolina. So there's a lot of people shot in many, many different states, according to Lee's own words, Investigators had continued to look into other crimes that they thought might be connected to the pair. One crime they investigated was the death of Jerry Taylor. He'd been shot with a rifle while golfing in Tucson, Arizona, on March nineteo. His body had been found in the bushes with his wallet nearby on the ground, but strangely, his money and credit cards weren't missing. Investigators had learned Mohammed and Malvo were in the area at the time, visiting Mohammed's sister. This was the same trip where they stole a credit card from a Greyhound bus driver. Later they would ask that ten million dollars be deposited on that car. But Taylor hadn't been shot by a two to three rifle like the Bushmaster that Malvo and Mohammed had used in their DC attacks, but rather a three oh eight caliber rifle. Still, the shootings resembled the random killings of the DC sniper attacks, and the fact that Malvo and Mohammed were in the area when it happened seemed like two big of a coincidence. So now that Malvo appeared to be talking, investigators from the Tucson Police Department went to interview him. That's a detective him in his Tusson Police Department in going over our file. And we know that you were in Tucson in early March of two thousand two. Can you tell me how you and I believe it was John Mohammed got to Tucson. We got to Tussan by greyhound from Tacoma, Washington. Did he tell you when you got on the bus coming Tucson that this was a job and we're going to do how do you phrase it? I don't know what words you h We're gonna go to Tucson. Um, I want to see my sister and this we're here to do. Where did you do a job? Did he tell you how much money he was paid to do this job? You usually twenty five out Love to start, you brought your sniper gear from Washington State. How did you know he was a golfer? We had an address and he had some additional information in the end, Love, it's one one sheet of paper with writing back in front. Did you know anything about the guy? The only thing he showed me was the picture. I wasn't allowed to read anything. John, I ever tell you why this guy had to die? M hm. You have a job to do, yes, and we have an address, but we're going to We go out there in the morning. We walk in the area and look at what's in the area. There's the houses and there's a golf course at the back. We go out there and we're looking for the guy in the picture. I spot the man and what he does is after hitting the balls for a couple hours, he comes down the slope and picks up all the balls with the machine. How many days would you say you spent at the golf course hiding and watching this particularly, probably three three days in time the day that this guy is shot. Time we get out there in the morning, that even says you have to do this and said no, because I've never done this before. And he said, you're going out there and doing this. This is the first time you shot and kill someone, but it was the first time you shot is killed somebody with this rifle. Yes, that even as soon as we talked, I have to go back out there in the last bus and stay out there interred in the night. Where do you ever rifle the rifles? And down in the case and in the green Duffle bag that goes over back back. So you have the Douffel bag on the bus, one of the rifles in the case inside the Douffel bags. Did you ever get questioned anybody ever looking at the bag? You wouldn't really question, you know, it's like a camper's bag. What kind of rifle was? Is a three? It nine inches was cut off the original bar so that it would fit easily with an event, and it was a temporary suppressing. Where did you get that weapon? The weapon was bought by Earl Dancy. So you get there the night before, Yes, because I know he picks golf balls. I put the golf balls on the slope, so you're setting the balls to draw him to the area where you want him to be. Once he sees those days basically baited he goes after. Malvo says that he wore camouflage clothes and hid under a tree, covering himself with a net and branches. He camped out all night so he'd be in position the next day when Jerry Taylor went golfing. All right, So when does the guy show up? Do you learn in one have you hit any balls prior to coming down to that area? That sloped area. The thing is where I was. I couldn't move to get up and see him, but I knew he was going to come down. And that's all I'm waiting on because he's the one that always does it. He doesn't last two days, comes down slope and picks up all the balls. All right, So you're you're there. Wait and if he goes down, why starts backing up balls. He came close to me. He walked by and picked up the first ball and then went around. I'm right here and he's right here. He's a little bit about me because I'm down in the ground. It's a traditional military sniper position, all right, just a rifle of the scope. So you had him in your sides. Yes, Then he came back, and what's going back up the slope? That's my new shot. He fell, lays down and there's no movement, and I started to back up. Then he got back up and started walking, and he starts going up the slope. He didn't die immediately, and I had to go out there and get him. And once I got him, like pulled him here. Uh So you went after him and you grabbed him and drag him down. Okay? Does he say anything to you? Yes? He said he was saying he was stepping. He was saying something. Do you remember what he said he was? It was it was basically groans, because it was like something filling up his mouth and something of scars. But you could tell he was trying to say something. Was he looking at you? He was striped? Yes? Okay, so you drag him into the bushes? Yes, grab drag him by the arms, legs, legs, legs. You take his wallet? I take the wallet. Look at the picture to drop the wallet. The bag was not far from there. It was like laying under a boulder. Pulled it out, put the women too pieces, closed it up, and then put it in the back. Go out to the bus stop, Get to the bus stop. What do you do? I get the bus stop, I sit beside him and and jittery, and he says, come there, no one knows he done anything. How old were you talking? Uh? Assenting? Now that this hall is is done, and you know, and you know you've been through a lot in the last couple of years with these proceedings, as are why are you talking to I'm talking to you because I'm sorry, sorry, there's something you want to say to the family or you can't bring it back. I'm sorry, Thank you very much. We're gonna go back to Tucson tomorrow morning and we're going to have to talk to family and we're going to have to tell the family that somebody that knew this man wanted him dead and this is going to be terrible news for that. According to the Arizona Daily Star newspaper, police had no doubt that Malvo killed Taylor, but Taylor's daughter, Cheryl Witz, said she couldn't imagine anyone wanting to hurt her father, and police never found evidence to support Malvo's claim that it was a hired killing. So was Malvo lying or did Mohammed's underworld dealings extend beyond smuggling people across borders? Was he working as a hitman as well, or maybe Mohammed lied to Malvo and this was part of how he groomed Malvo for the d C attacks. Anthony Meolie, the criminologist who helped publish Malvo's autobiography, says Malvo never mentioned any contract killings to him. The idea that this was a contract hit, to me is total hogwash. But Lee also referenced the fact that he shot thirty six people. Lee himself shot thirty six people and killed over twenty of them. He also said that John shot as many as seventy people. Now I don't know how true that is, but he said I wouldn't put it passed him that he shot that many people because he was always out doing bad things. Malvo told me only that during the time he started killing people with Mohammed, he believed deeply in the Nation of Islam based philosophy that Mohammed had been teaching him. Mohammed had him eating only a single small vegetarian meal a day and would give him sepenty two different vitamins and supplements. Malvo might have been even more of a true believer than Mohammed. Malvo says, shortly after Mohammed had him shoot Keenya Cook in Tacoma, he confronted Mohammed about inconsistencies he was seeing. Mohammed had been telling him that the white man was the devil, but he was dating a white woman. He isn't in a relationship with his white baby. I mean, you're talking all his didn't. I mean, I came on to get him, to get your children back. I mean, you can addy blow. Somebody worried out what's up? So a week or two after the first shooting, he came on a fift He was around at time, and I sat tighter and I had a fified back. I said, look, you called me out of here, and you said I need to get my children back. That's why I'm here. You can't talk. You know the white man is the devil, and you missed Lucas won't be either your kids or make your mind up. And make your mind up right now before I put two rounds. There's a order than the dashboards will take those quarters up. You will step out the truck, walk to the phone, make the call and say he's over. And that's the rep I need to hear. You had actually at that moment bought entirely into his plan, yes being but the plan US as far ago could certainly make money along the way, find the kids take and go to Canada, both flight school and do what you want to do around that would the layout it changed along the way. Malvo says Mohammed had put together a list of cities with people named Mildred Mohammed in them. He says they began traveling across the country searching for mohammed Sex wife and his kids. They first stopped at Los Angeles in February or March of two thousand two, where they shot a man. Details about this killing are spars and the victim has never been matched up with the alleged crime. Malvo says they went on to shoot and kill Jerry Taylor in Arizona in March. Then, Malvo said they continued east and a couple of months later, Mohammed shot another man at a golf course in Florida. Investigators connected this to the mysterious shooting of seventy six year old Albert Michael Sick. Michael Sick was shot while golfing in Clearwater, Florida, on May eighteenth of that year. Malvo also confessed to involvement in the May seven shooting a Billy Jean Dylan in Denton, Texas. Dylan was murdered while doing yardwork, but Malvo told me only that he and Mohammed committed so many crimes that they all started to blur together. I mean, didn't summer whole week, you know, ub or something We're gonna get pulled. It would be some violence. He got to the point where he said, I created a fucking monster. During this time, he got several nervous breakdown and each time he came out of old he did need to bloodlet would be greater and greater. His need for violence would be greater and greater. He would he would just escalate. He was bald train and I was on the train with him. I will attached. After the Denton, Texas murder, Malvo says he and Mohammed then traveled to a gun show in El Paso, Texas, where Malvo stole the twenty two revolver they would later use to shoot Paul Arufa. Then they went to Hammond, Louisiana, where they crossed paths with a man named John Gata. It was a normal day. I went to work and I went home, and I was going to return to work to catch up on some stuff. And I decided before I did that, thought I would stop at the mall time on Square and used to shopping. I did so, and I made a purchase, and then I came out and I went to drive away, and I noticed that I had a flat tire. I could have driven just a little short piece to a service station that's right in front of the mall, but I just parked my truck that night. It was dark, of course, you know you have a parking lot lighting. I was just assessing the situation and I was getting some tools out. There were two black men that walked right Bondy. They said, it looks like you have a flat tire, and the kind of laughed under the breath, and they asked me if the mall was open. Well, I knew it was closing, but just to buy myself more time, just you know, make sure they weren't up to something. I said it might be. I said, you could check something to that effect. I didn't see where they came from where they went and I went to the back of my vehicles because that's where you would retrieve the spare tire, and I saw a figure hunched over and running from the back of my vehicle to the front. And I'm like, okay, well, I'm not ready for this, and I said, I'll just go to the other side of the vehicle and say what do you want? So I went around to the passenger side of the vehicle, and when I did, Malvo met me face to face. He was about maybe six ft away. Before I had a moment to think about anything, I don't even know if I ever got out what do you want, he just raised the pistol and shot me. I thought he was aiming from my head, but the bullet struck me on the right side of my neck. I just remember falling to the ground. I just felt like the safest thing to do was just lay there for a few minutes. I don't remember feeling that they were like reaching in my pocket. I noticed my wallet was missing, without thinking that it might have a spinal injury or anything. I was going to walk to the service station and just call for help. Before I did, there were some people, like passers by, and so they came up and they said, Stain, you're bleeding, Are you okay? And I kind of looked at my shirt and it was you know, blood on my shirt and at that time I heard the ambulance siren. They took me to the hospital and they treated me. The doctor said that when he got the call, he said, well, this guy is going to come in either paralyzed or dead. The bullet had entered my neck. It traveled from the light side of my neck to the left side of my upper back, acrossing the final card without doing any damage. I felt luck. I could just went back to work that next day. I don't want missing work and my friends and know, at least take the weekend or a week or whatever, you know. When my vehicle was brought to the provider who was going to fix the tire, they noticed that the puncture on the tar was on the sidewalk. If you get a flat tire, it's on the treads, but in this case it was like the tar was purposely slashed. So I would you not be able to drop off? Malvo and Mohammed then traveled to Baton Rouge, Louisiana, Mohammed's hometown. Friends and relatives said it seemed like he was going out of his way to talk and visit with people he hadn't seen in years. He lied to people, telling them he was still married to Mildred, that he was doing well, and that he owned houses in Canada and the Caribbean. And it was here that Malvo says Mohammed first told him about his plan for the d C attacks. Mohammed had a plan that would have extended far beyond the horrors of October two thousand two if they hadn't been stopped. In two thousand six, Mohammed, who was already on death row in Virginia, was prosecuted in Montgomery County, Maryland, for the six murders that took place there. Malvo was prosecuted as well, but he pled guilty and agreed to testify against Mohammed and share new details about the case, including John's full plan. Here are excerpts from Mohammed's Maryland trial, with prosecutor Catherine Winfrey questioning Malva. Winfrey and Malvo's quotes are read by voice actors. Now, did you go back to Louisiana in mid July two? Yes, Now, when you were with him, what would the two of you do? We would visit people he was dealing with at the time. Did you feel like a member of the family. Yes? Did you come to love Mr Mohammed. Yes, did you tell him you loved him? Yes? And how about his feelings for you? Did he tell you that he loved you? Yes? Did you believe that? Yes? And did there come a time that Mr Mohammed told you he had learned where his children were. Yes. We were in Baton Rouge at his brother's place. We were across the street and a gully, sitting on a log. He told me that children are in Maryland, just outside d C. And he plained that we're not going to get the children. Not yet explained to me what was going to happen. After we left Louisiana. He said, we were going to go to the Washington, D C. Area, and we're going to terrorize these people. Every day. They're going to be six shots, six slangs a day for thirty days. And after thirty days, what was going to happen. Phase two was to create much more damage by using improvised explosives. We had ball bearings or nails. Usually. What I was told was we get schools, school buses, hospitals, children's hospitals. Everything is around children. Malvo later elaborated on Mohammed's plan when he spoke to me only from prison. We're got ruish. I think the July he played to me that we're going to go DC and we're going to carize the parts work and we're just going to go into that region and just were habit and shut it down because all these people care about it. There sucking money. And if you disturb that process and let people know that they're not stay eight were eight times this system is no longer visible. So when he explained it to me, I said, this man, we can robbing and doing work, doing what you're asking to do, and we made you know X amount of money, you have, the passports, you have, the contact, we know what the children are why and just kicked him and leaves. I mean that's that's the whole story. I mean what he's like, No, I don't get back to these mothers, focus the I don't kill Drew birds. You want to stop. I'm gonna get children and we're gonna terrorize. They're going to know what they have done. In the Maryland trial, prosecutor Winfrey asked Melvo about what happened next. What did you do after he told you about this plan to terrorize? He was gone during the day after he told this to me. I sat in the bathroom played Russian Roulette for several hours with the twenty two revolver. HI loaded one round, spun, put it to my head, fire, fire, fire, until I reached the fourth round. And then I realized this was the round and I just I just broke down. I couldn't do it now. From Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Did you return to Cooma, Washington? Yes? And while you were there, did you steal a two to three Bushmaster high powered rifle? Yes? From Bull's Eye it's a gun shop. Now. Did there come a time in late August of two two that you and John Allan Mohammed left to come to Washington, d C. Yes. We came to Clinton, Maryland first to scoop out where his wife and children was. At First he sent me to go knock on the door to see if it's his wife. I went not she was sitting in the living room watching television. I recognized her face based on pictures that I've seen earlier. I returned and told Mohammed, yes, that's her residence. Then there's an area with the fence directly across the street from there. I'd watch when she left, Who came there? What did the children do? When did they leave? Basically surveillance and did Mr Mohammed take his children during that time? No, he said not yet, not yet. Mr Mohammed had several looks when he said not yet. A company with that look it meant it's final. Didn't ask him any more questions. Whenever he spoke about his wife. What were the emotions that he displayed. You could tell he was uncomfortable with her having his children. He was angry. Did Mr Mohammed ever discuss September eleven with you? Yes, he said, bloodshed begets bloodshed. It's a process, and America begun this Osama bin Laden didn't develop in a vacuum. They trained him, They taught him to fight the Soviets, and it came home. He hated this country. He hates this country. Did he tell you why he hates the country? Slavery, the hypocrisy, their foreign policy, just the entirety of the nation. Malvo said that after confirming that Mildred and the kids were living in Clinton, Maryland, Mohammed had him rob Paul Arufa outside his restaurant, and then with Larufa's money, they went to New Jersey to buy the blue Capris Malvo says. They then drove to the southeast so they could modify and test out the car outside of the d C area. What was the reason you stopped Montgomery, Alabama? The modifications were fully made. He wanted to test them. We found an ABC liquor store. There's a car wash across the street. I sat there pretended to read the armor like gun magazine. I had two jobs to see when it's all over, if I could tell where the shot was coming from. And my main goal was to be the pickup man. I was supposed to run, pick up the bag, and then head directly to the pickup spot. Now what happened After Mr Mohammed fired the two shots. I went to the front of the ABC. The two women were laying on the ground. The black lady was on her back and there was blood around her head them. The white lady was laying there was blood on the concrete around her body. Both of them were not moving. I was frantically looking for the bag because I know I only have so much time. I grabbed something I can't remember exactly. Once I grabbed it, I heard freeze and I took off the officer was running behind me. I jumped the fence and jumped another fence, then went into the car and then went directly on the highway and left. Now at some point, did you head back north? Yes, we drove all the way up to Montgomery County to begin the shootings. Why this area? Why Montgomery County? He said it was middle class, well off, mostly whites, that it was a perfect area to terrorize. And who would choose which actual shooting you do and which one Mr Mohammed would do? Mr Mohammed would make the choice. May I direct your attention to Wednesday, October two of two thousand two, about six o'clock in the evening. Did you and Mr Mohammed go to the Shoppers food warehouse? Yes, we went to the Y m c A on Wednesday morning. Then that evening we uh, that's when everything began. That's when he said, today's going to be the first shot. Who was driving the car he would drive in areas like this because I did not have a license. And then what happened After he parked the car, he stepped over his driver's seat, went into the back and entered the trunk. What was your role? You're sitting in the front seat. What's your job? Make sure there's no one walking by on the sidewalk and there are no car stopped. And did you see his target? Mr? Malvo? An elderly white male in a brown suit. And once I told him he had to go, the shot was taken. What happened after Mr Mohammed shot Mr Martin? He fell. Mr Mohammed came up. I went into the back disassembled the weapon. Do you remember where you went after Mr Mohammed shot Mr Martin? No, was their plan for the next day, Yes, we're supposed to get at least five shootings, possibly six. Malvo later told me only that things didn't go exactly as planned, or at least things deviated from the plan that Mohammed had been telling Malvo. Suddenly their plan went from shooting five Caucasions to now basically shooting five of any human being. Obviously, it's easier to shoot people of multiple cultures because there's more people around. It would also if only whites were being shot, it might have been easier to develop a profile that our shooters are African American. Here's more of Meoli's interview with Malvo. Did you think said John was racist towards whites at all? God, yeah, absolutely, I mean in nation plot, the white Men of the del So if he was preaching racist idealism and the hatred of whites, why would other races be targeted? During the belt Waite shootings. You've seen the major there is a scene in which Market is training me in their walk in the country because everyone departed the system. So as far as Mom was concerned, if you participate in the system, you are in any and the system is that the white economic system, meant the whites have created as a system of control. And if convinced every other nation or people on the planet that this is the system to adopted, is the way to go. And after the very first day of shooting in the belt Waite sniper shootings as we know them, Lee realized emotionally he could not do this. It was too much for him to do, which is why after the first day there's a bit of a drop off. So the plan went off the rails. Even from day one, we didn't realize it was going off the rails, but according to Lee, it was and me only says that the latter phases of the plan were even more sadistic. Than what Malvo described in the Maryland Quadroom. Phase two was even worse. The original Phase two was it was supposed to take place in Baltimore, Maryland, and they were going to shoot a pregnant woman. The reason why that shooting was going to be so horrific was the nation would say, wow, these people do not care at all. The idea was that when they started to investigate the case, they were going to kill one of the Baltimore police officers. He'ven happy to walk up to adopted after the question, shot it to it and the head off and leave it on the seat. That's gonna shot outrage the mayor, the governor, A lot of people are going to come on intac police department. We were did there there off, He's going to take exprovide which he had, which he and he was like a label. They were going to use improvised explosive devices at the funeral and while they were going off, they would wait a few minutes and then use them again when first responders arrived. There was going to be the immediate policing entire gathering, basically lifting that police department. And then there were the secondary devices before the ambibaces and fire trucks and everybody who respond that. Then, as if that wasn't bad enough, when they Phase three began, they would extort money from the government. They were going to say, you can't stop us from doing this, and we want ten million dollars. The third phases to disappear and take children like myself and trained them and then release them the door and reprocate the process in different ways. But Malvo told me only the plan quickly fell apart because Malvo couldn't emotionally handle what Mohammed was asking him to do. Lee lined up the pregnant woman, but he decided he couldn't shoot her. So really phase one in phase two never happened simply because Lee could not do it. His conscience would not allow him to do it. So if John tried to develop a killer who had no moral compunctions whatsoever, he was unable to do it. Lee for some reason, drew the line at killing a pregnant woman. He was willing to shoot a thirteen year old child going to school, but he was not willing to kill a pregnant woman. And the only doesn't buy that. The shootings were strongly motivated by the Nation of Islam. Ideology. Me only thinks Mohammed and Malbo were just angry and escalating their murder spree. Were the Beltway sniper shootings, this alleged brainwashing job that needed to get done in order to rid the system of whites when none of that panned out? Or was it a case where a man who was angry and spiraling out of control emotionally, along with a self hating, angry young man, started shooting random targets for their own personal satisfaction. Nothing went along with the plan, nothing went along with the phases, and nothing seemed to go along with the belief system. So that's why I have trouble believing in this whole indoctrination because the killings don't jive with that story. It doesn't make sense. In my opinion, they were unraveling. We often see this in whether it's serial shooters or spree shooters or even serial killers. When killers have a compulsion to kill, eventually they start making mistakes because their compulsion over rides not only common sense, but you know, their criminal intellect. As marty as they were when they began their plan, they start making mistakes, They start leaving clues. In this case, they even start leaving tarot cards. You know, handwriting is traceable, they leave voices. Eventually Malvo's fingerprint is tracked, so eventually things do unravel. But that's usually what we see in these cases is the killers start to get sloppy and they start to get emotionally worn. And these are human beings taking lies. If people think that it's not an emotional toll to do that, they're mistaken. Something that a lot of serial killers have told me that there's only so much soul that they have, and eventually it's gone and they start making mistakes. And here this was a physical one. Lee fell asleep on the watch when you should have been wake. If they had been listening to the radio like they should have been, like he was, he would have known that the ap B had been out for the license plate and they would have changed plates and never gotten at least not gotten caught that night. It's my professional opinion that by themselves they would not have committed these crimes. But together they made for a perfect duo. We've seen this before many times, where by themselves they both have animosity, they both have maybe some tendencies towards extreme violence. One of them may or may not possess some type of mental disorder. We see that time and time again. Body and Clyde are perfect example of this. Investigators learned more about Mohammed and Malbo's relationship at Mohammed's trial in Maryland in two thousand six. After being questioned by prosecutors, Malvo was cross examined by the defense and Mohammed was defending himself, so the pair came face to face for the first time since they were arrested. This would also be the last time they interacted. Mohammed began by questioning Malbo about the period when he first ribed in Washington State. Here are excerpts read by voice actors. Can you tell us who Mary Maurezes. She's a white lady who was your girlfriend at the time. Can you tell us about Alan Archa, Mr Archer runs the shelter. He's a very kind, compassionate guy. Okay, do you remember me, you and Don Holland sitting down at his table and his wonderful wife could con dinner. Yes, okay, So the first four people that you met pertained to my life in the state of Washington was white. Yes, you mentioned I called a white man the devil that is true. This is true. And how close was me and Mary? You were close? Mr Malville, you mentioned that you was indoctrinated. Did not the experts in your child state that Marville was indoctrinated by Mohammed? Yes? Let me ask you something. Do you know what indoctrination is? Okay? What is it? Indoctrination is a process under which the person who came under influence is brought to do things he wouldn't have done on his own. So a person, according to your definition, a person can be indoctrinated to do what is right. Isn't that correct? Yes, I'm sorry I didn't hear you. Yes, he answer, You're honest. She can't tell me what I heard with my own ears. Is it your testimony that one of the reasons why you were attracted to John Allen Mohammed was because the way I treated the children. What's the way that you wanted to be treated? Yes? Okay? And then did I not treat you that way for a period of time? Yes, But for the period of time you were talking about pertaining to these crimes, did I not treat you that way? Yes? Okay? And why did John Selena into Labor call you their brother. Can you answer that for me? You sat them down and introduced me as part of the family. Do you remember the time happening in Antigua that Indrea, my girlfriend, almost drowned. Yes. You were off the island and before I left? Who did I give the responsibility of those children who I hold dead and near to my heart? Me? Correct? And something happened when I was gone. A gentleman almost drowned. Is that correct? Yes? And Andrea went into the water trying to save him. Is that correct? Yes? She almost drowned. Yes. And Selena called for her big brother, who was her big brother me, and when her big brother came, her big brother pulled Andrea out of the water, didn't he. Yes? And then Andrea told you something that you didn't know at the time. My son, little John, was in that water, and you went back and got him, didn't you? Yes? Why? Why? Because I love him? Isn't it true if you wasn't there, that boy would have lost his life? Yes? Okay, So what I asked you to do was to take care of my family. Did I indoctrinate you then? No. Mohammed's been much of his cross examination trying to twist Melvo's words to cast doubt on his testimony. At times, it felt like he was giving the rest of the world a glimpse about He might have bullied young Lee Boyd Malvo into submission with his words, but now four years later, one year old Lee Boyd Malvo was better equipped to fight back. You stated that you went into the Bulls eight store. Yes, okay, when you went into the store, was it people in the store? Oh? Yes? I noticed you said that quick. Was there a reason why you responded so fast that objection. Was there a person at the front door, cashier or something like that, yes? And was there other people, customers everywhere else in the store. Yes? And you had a case, a gun case. Okay? How big was it? It was big enough for the weapon to fit in it? Okay. Now take us through exactly what you did. I came in and according to the plan, once both the security guards were distracted, I picked up the weapon, break it down. The case is already open, put it in, close it and walk out. You mentioned earlier that the case was long enough to contain the weapon. Is that correct? Yes? And then you also stated that you broke the weapon down to fit into a case. Can you tell us why it was on a bipod. I had to break the bipod down to put it in there, and then you walked out the door. Yes, okay, let me ask you something. Do you have an invisible suit? On? Objection, let's go to the bus stuff. Do you remember stating that we also went to Hawaii? I said that? And how long did it take for us to get to Hawaii on the bus? That was a lie? That was a lie. Okay. You also stay we went to Alaska's that correct? Yes, how long did it take for us to get to Alaska on the bus? That was a lie? That was allowed to okay? Uh. You also stated that we went to main correct, I remember Alaska and Hawaii. Do you remember Sam Walker asking you where did you learn how to shoot? And you said Alaska, Main in Hawaii. I said a lot of things I can't recall. I can't recall details of my statements. So you say a lot of things in your statements, just like you said a lot in the courtroom right now? Objection, That wasn't true. Objection. After Mohammed finished his cross examination, prosecutors were given another chance to follow up with malvo. I want to specifically ask you about some of the questions that Mr Mohammed asked you. He asked you some questions about Mary Marez, the woman that he had a relationship with. Yes, how did he make you feel about white people at that point in time? Hate you still feel that way now? No? Mr Mohammed asked you a lot of questions, Mr Malvo about whether you saw a difference in the way he treated you and his own sons. What was the difference that you perceived in the way John Alan Mohammed treated his biological sons and the way he treated you, Mr Malvo, Mr Mohammed did not use any of his children to murder other people. When you talk to detectives in Fairfax prior to the trial, you hadn't heard the testimony of the witnesses. So where did you get the information? I was there, he was there, and I knew what we both did. That's all the questions I have, your honor. Mohammed was found guilty again and was sentenced to life without parole. He continued to fight against his Virginia death penalty sentences, but he soon ran out of appeals. His execution was set for November two thousand nine. Here's Paul Larufa, the survivor shot outside his restaurant in Clinton, Maryland. I didn't want to go to his execution, and I wrote a memo which basically said, I I understand you folks being there. I understand your need to be there. I don't have a need to see him die, and I don't want him to take another day out of my life. I'm sorry at any death, but I think if anybody deserved the death penalty, it was him. Here's Cheryl Witz, the daughter of Jerry Taylor, who Melvo confessed to shooting on the golf course in Arizona. Wits was interviewed right before Mohammed's execution. Anybody that can do the things that he did, brain watched a child and killing all the people that he did, do all this to all the victims, the families, his own family. He's an animal, He's a monster. What was your view of the death penalty prior to this tragedy. Well, I really wasn't for the death penalty because I just didn't believe, you know, it's going to bring the the victim back. But after he killed my father, I knew that if he got the death penalty, I would be sitting in this chair and watching the execution. I just I have to witness that. I need to witness that. In Virginia, the execution room, or death chamber as it's also known, contains a cross shaped bed with arms made to facilitate injections. Two wolves of the room have mirrors, one way mirrors, behind which are rooms full of spectators, one for victims and their families, another for lawyers, press, and Mohammed's family. Mohammed's ex wife, Mildred, says her children to see Mohammed before the execution. They said, Mom, you know, we really want to talk to that. So I called the warden. The warden said I would need to put their names on the docket and that John would have to agree to see them. He said, but Ms Mohammed, your children are under eighteen, he said, So that means you have to come with them. Oh oh no, sir, mmmmm. I will find somebody else to bring them, but I am not going in there. But John would not put their names on the docket. So we get to the day of the execution and the media is reporting all of his visitors, one of his sons and some other family members. So my son. So while all of them are there and we're not their mom, what's up with that? Said, I am not going to make excuses for your dad. It's his choice. So his attorney said, I'm gonna call you before he goes into the chamber. Make sure that your children are right there so he can talk to him. So, as we're watching TV, I see the gentleman coming to the microphone. I say, yeah, this is not going to be good. At John Mohammed was walked into the death chamber. He kind of staggered in. He was in a blue shirt, blue Denham jeans. He's kind of being held up by corrections officers. He looked around, mostly to the floor. He's very clean cut. They strapped him in by his legs first, then his waist, then his arms. Then the blue curtain was shut. The department corrections officials tell us the blue curtain was shut so most of people in the back the administering the execution can they can protect their identity. At nine oh six, they pulled the curtain back. You can see Mohammed strapped there. They asked him right after that, Mr Hammed, do you have me last words? He didn't say anything. At nine oh seven. You can see him twitching a lot. You can see his and blinking a lot, and you can see his breathing increase. At nine oh eight, he sat there. He was there, motionless. At nine eleven pm, Mohammed was pronounced dead. I went to the execution. This is Nelson Rivera, whose wife Lorie and Louis Rivera was shot and killed on October third, two two. You know, with the pain and all the anger there, I have that that was going to release me. I was feeling good at that moment. But you know, just to see him, He's attitude to not say anything to the families. That guy was, it was a monster. You know, he didn't deserve to be here. It was too easy for him. The just put that injection to him. That was too easy for what he did to all the victims. He didn't give them an opportunity, you know, to be with their families, to to enjoy their kids. The gentleman coming to the microphone said, John Mohammed has expired. Nine eleven and my children went three different directions For all of Mohammed's claims that he loved his children, the children that he told Lee he was desperate to see again. Mohammed didn't speak to his children when he had the opportunity. My son went by himself and I said, honey, are you okay? Said I'm good, Ma, I'm good. So then I went to lib She was on the floor screaming, crying uncontrollably. I picked her up, created her go over to Selena. She's whimpering on the sofa. I said, honey, you're okay. No, Mommy, I'm not okay. I said, okay, tell me what's going on. Do you understand that daddy was gonna kill you? Yep? I understand that completely. He didn't love his mom, he didn't love us. If he was gonna kill you, I hate him. I say, no, you don't. You don't hate him. Don't tell me how I feel. I said, okay, it's going now. You gotta let it go. It's gonna kill you. Gotta let it go. And she looked up at me, and I knew what she was looking for. She was looking for some type of emotion that I had. Because her dad had just been executed, I had absolutely nothing. When he said to me, you have become my enemy, and as my enemy, I will kill you. I severed every emotional tie to him, to me, he was a stranger being executed. Why would Mohammed put his own children through the terror of the d C attacks. Why did he go to Prince George's county, Maryland, the county where they lived, to shoot aboard the same age as his son John. Some suggest that Mohammed didn't just want to kill Mildred, he wanted to terrorize her, and what happened to his children was just collateral damage. After all, Mohammed's need for violence seemed to override the love he claimed to feel for Malvo as well. Mohammed told Malvo that he loved him, but then let Malvo fall on the sword after they were arrested. Criminologist Anthony Meoli says Lee reflected on this years later. The interesting thing about the shootings, and this is really somewhat fascinating. All the shots that were taken outside of the car, we're done by Lee. So John purposely put Lee in the view of the public when they already had a sniper roost inside the caprice set up. All the shots taken inside the car were done by John when he was fully covered and not able to be identified. If anything was to be done where there was a chance of getting caught or risk of getting shot at in the process, because it has happened several times, which robs the one. They were armed and I got shot at and I had to kill them in the process. He was nowhere to be found. He was somewhere hiding in the DC shooting. There was anything to be done where there was a major risk. If he was so caring about his son, so to say, why put Lee out in a position where he was at such a risk. You know, the calls to the police are Lee void Malvo's voice. So it's very interesting that John almost purposely put Lee as the shoe and almost could have made a case for himself saying, well, this guy did all the shootings. It wasn't me. Here's his voice on tape. Malvo's lawyers also felt that Mohammed may have just been using Malvo for the crimes. Lee was under this misbelief that they're going to have this utopia, and John Mohammed was saying, we're going to get the government to pay for it. I mean, what person would rationally think that's going to happen. But a kid who's indoctrinated, that's following this leader believes it. I don't know what was gonna happen in League after he got his kids back. I don't know, because Lee would then eventually realize there wasn't this ten million dollars from the government that's going to pay for this utopia. Maybe John Mohammed was going to kill Lee with Mohammed God, all we have now is Malvo story. When we began this season, a Supreme Court case was set to decide whether Malvo would be eligible for parole, but the question of whether Malvo deserves to be in prison has gone from the theoretical to the concrete due to recent developments that will discuss next episode Lee Boyd Malvo could one day walk the streets again. Malvo will be eligible for parole as early as two next time on Monster d C Sniper. Obviously, our goal is to do the best we can for him, and you know what he wants. He wants to be out and be able to live his life. I had dreams at one point, I wanted to do great things. Lawyers would argue that absent Mohammed, he wouldn't have committed these crimes at all, and that what good is it to warehouse him in a super max facility for the next sixty years. We end up always looking at these fantastic cases like Malvo. That's not how most of these cases go down. Most of these cases are a heavy trigger finger, an armed robbery gone bad, stupid stupid behavior that track agically results in a stupid, stupid outcome. I mean, you could re sentence him all you want, it doesn't take away from the fact that eight people at least will never be brought back. At the time, I was thinking, well, he should be lack at forever and ever. Um Now I'd like to kind of see whether or not he's really changed. Monster DC Sniper is a fifteen episode podcast hosted by Tony Harris and produced by iHeart Radio and Tenderfoot TV. Matt Frederick and Alex Williams are executive producers on behalf of I Heart Radio, alongside producers Trevor Young, Ben Kiebrick, and Josh Thayne Payne. Lindsay and Donald Albright are executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV alongside producers Meredith Steadman and Christina Dana. Original music is by Makeup and Vanity Set. If you haven't already be sure to check out the first two seasons, Atlanta Monster and Monster the Zodiac Killer. If you have questions or comments, email us at monster at iHeartMedia dot com, or you can call us at one eight three three eight five six six six seven. Thanks for listening.