I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I was a CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts in Europe, Russia, and in Asia.

I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I was a CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts in Europe, Russia, and in Asia.

And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive our adversaries.

And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive our adversaries.

Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy theories large and small.

Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy theories large and small.

Could they be true or are we being manipulated?

Could they be true or are we being manipulated?

This is Mission Implausible.

This is Mission Implausible.

So it's really great to have Mike Rothschild on again. Mike is a journalist, published author, and a foremost expert in the ever changing Quanon conspiracy thing. Moreover, Mike explores the intersections between Internet culture and politics through the lens of conspiracy theories. He's a subject matter expert in the field of fringe beliefs really important right now, and Mike is a veteran Mission Implausible guest here with us for the second time.

So it's really great to have Mike Rothschild on again. Mike is a journalist, published author, and a foremost expert in the ever changing Quanon conspiracy thing. Moreover, Mike explores the intersections between Internet culture and politics through the lens of conspiracy theories. He's a subject matter expert in the field of fringe beliefs really important right now, and Mike is a veteran Mission Implausible guest here with us for the second time.

So Mike, welcome, Thank you for having me back. I'm very excited, Mike.

So Mike, welcome, Thank you for having me back. I'm very excited, Mike.

So there's so much to start with, and so let me start in the middle when we can work our way around writers. This USAI D for me. I've got a lot of friends in USA I D I think John does two and it's destruction, taking it like Christy Nome's dog, taking it down into the pit and shooting it. All started out with a video falsely claiming that USAI D paid Ben Stiller and Angelina, Joe Lee and other actors millions of dollars to travel to the Ukraine. And this was in an a clip that appeared to be on entertainment news News And as it turns out, this clip was actually Russian disinformation. And yet this didn't prevent Elon Musk and President Musk President.

So there's so much to start with, and so let me start in the middle when we can work our way around writers. This USAI D for me. I've got a lot of friends in USA I D I think John does two and it's destruction, taking it like Christy Nome's dog, taking it down into the pit and shooting it. All started out with a video falsely claiming that USAI D paid Ben Stiller and Angelina, Joe Lee and other actors millions of dollars to travel to the Ukraine. And this was in an a clip that appeared to be on entertainment news News And as it turns out, this clip was actually Russian disinformation. And yet this didn't prevent Elon Musk and President Musk President.

One, No, you were write the first time.

One, No, you were write the first time.

Co President Musk from using this as a pretext for one of the pretexts for dismantling usa D, along with another false claim that it provided fifty million dollars to Hamas in Gaza for condoms, And of course the actual answer was a little more complicated, but it did involve aid to Gaza for people who were impacted, who were impactedgmatically. So, Mike, where is the difference now between disinformation and conspiracy theories? They have they melded into one, And how does if the president can't keep it apart, how do we there is no difference at this point. There really is no separation between conspiracism, disinformation, politics, popular culture, internet culture, news dissemination is it has all become the same thing. And of course, so much of that really happened at light speed. Really during the first Trump campaign he rose to political prominence not because of his brilliant ideas there's tax pol his plans for the EU. It was because he was screaming about how Barack Obama wasn't born in the United States and had the Hawaiian health official with the copy of his birth certificate killed in a plane crash, and how you know, Antoine Scalia was smothered by a pillow and Hillary Clinton was part of a secret cuple. That's the stuff that really got through to people, and it had this patina of oh, he says the things that the rest of us are just thinking.

Co President Musk from using this as a pretext for one of the pretexts for dismantling usa D, along with another false claim that it provided fifty million dollars to Hamas in Gaza for condoms, And of course the actual answer was a little more complicated, but it did involve aid to Gaza for people who were impacted, who were impactedgmatically. So, Mike, where is the difference now between disinformation and conspiracy theories? They have they melded into one, And how does if the president can't keep it apart, how do we there is no difference at this point. There really is no separation between conspiracism, disinformation, politics, popular culture, internet culture, news dissemination is it has all become the same thing. And of course, so much of that really happened at light speed. Really during the first Trump campaign he rose to political prominence not because of his brilliant ideas there's tax pol his plans for the EU. It was because he was screaming about how Barack Obama wasn't born in the United States and had the Hawaiian health official with the copy of his birth certificate killed in a plane crash, and how you know, Antoine Scalia was smothered by a pillow and Hillary Clinton was part of a secret cuple. That's the stuff that really got through to people, and it had this patina of oh, he says the things that the rest of us are just thinking.

Well, the rest of us are not just thinking it. It's only a small number of people thinking, but that's a very politically active group. So really, that rubicon was not crossed last month. It was crossed in twenty sixteen, and unfortunately, we're just getting further and further away from the last bridge back to the same place. At this point, our government and the very levers that control how money is collected and spent in this country are being controlled by conspiracy adult lunatics. It's its federal law enforcement is being controlled by conspiracy adult lunatics. Is the worst nightmare of everything journalists and researchers have been writing about for the last decade.

Well, the rest of us are not just thinking it. It's only a small number of people thinking, but that's a very politically active group. So really, that rubicon was not crossed last month. It was crossed in twenty sixteen, and unfortunately, we're just getting further and further away from the last bridge back to the same place. At this point, our government and the very levers that control how money is collected and spent in this country are being controlled by conspiracy adult lunatics. It's its federal law enforcement is being controlled by conspiracy adult lunatics. Is the worst nightmare of everything journalists and researchers have been writing about for the last decade.

Mike, I think we should have probably known that some of these things were false. Fifty million dollars on condoms. I haven't even spent that in a last year on condoms, and that doesn't make sense. Yeah, it seems in college. But yeah, what I wanted to go quickly to something very personal with you, as we understand that your house was lost in the fires and Alta, Dina and so and I understand that the conspiracy theories have built up around some of the fires and obviously the federal government's response to the fires. And first of all, we feel terrible for what's happened to you, but we've been to send your thoughts on what you experienced and what you're saying.

Mike, I think we should have probably known that some of these things were false. Fifty million dollars on condoms. I haven't even spent that in a last year on condoms, and that doesn't make sense. Yeah, it seems in college. But yeah, what I wanted to go quickly to something very personal with you, as we understand that your house was lost in the fires and Alta, Dina and so and I understand that the conspiracy theories have built up around some of the fires and obviously the federal government's response to the fires. And first of all, we feel terrible for what's happened to you, but we've been to send your thoughts on what you experienced and what you're saying.

Yes we did, we lost our house in the eating fire in Altadena. We're safe, got the family out, got the dogs out, got a few really important documents, lost everything else, But we are doing better than a lot of people. And as soon as it the initial gut punch of losing the house subsides and you start to think, Okay, what's going to happen next? My first thoughts go to, Okay, how is this going to drive online insanity? Because that's what I think about, that's how I interface with the world. And I knew that because disasters bring conspiracy theories, and particularly fires have been bringing these directed energy weapon conspiracy theories, I knew that would be a big part of it. And of course, the fire takes place two weeks before the second Trump inauguration, and he's already talking about all the ways he's going to gut the federal government and stick it to the deep state. So I immediately knew that this would all get wrapped up in the sort of the plastic cellophane of politics and conspiracism and tribalism and this sort of weird Trump cult stuff. So immediately you've got Trump blaming Gavin Newsom saying that, oh, they didn't turn on the water spigett if they just opened up the water and let it flow south and trucked it down there, none of this would have happened. I'm like, you, guys don't understand how any of this works, Like you don't understand what happened that night and all of the fact that went into the fact that there wasn't enough water pressures because the whole city was on fire. The idea that one house is destroyed while another house is standing, oh, it means it was hit by a laser. I've seen this in my own neighborhood. My neighbor two doors down, her house is still standing, the house behind us is still standing. Everything around it is destroyed. That's just the way fire works. It's very mysterious and it's complicated. But that doesn't mean it's a conspiracy, except we seek easy explanations through conspiracies. Hence everything about this fire has become grist for this endless mill of paranoia.

Yes we did, we lost our house in the eating fire in Altadena. We're safe, got the family out, got the dogs out, got a few really important documents, lost everything else, But we are doing better than a lot of people. And as soon as it the initial gut punch of losing the house subsides and you start to think, Okay, what's going to happen next? My first thoughts go to, Okay, how is this going to drive online insanity? Because that's what I think about, that's how I interface with the world. And I knew that because disasters bring conspiracy theories, and particularly fires have been bringing these directed energy weapon conspiracy theories, I knew that would be a big part of it. And of course, the fire takes place two weeks before the second Trump inauguration, and he's already talking about all the ways he's going to gut the federal government and stick it to the deep state. So I immediately knew that this would all get wrapped up in the sort of the plastic cellophane of politics and conspiracism and tribalism and this sort of weird Trump cult stuff. So immediately you've got Trump blaming Gavin Newsom saying that, oh, they didn't turn on the water spigett if they just opened up the water and let it flow south and trucked it down there, none of this would have happened. I'm like, you, guys don't understand how any of this works, Like you don't understand what happened that night and all of the fact that went into the fact that there wasn't enough water pressures because the whole city was on fire. The idea that one house is destroyed while another house is standing, oh, it means it was hit by a laser. I've seen this in my own neighborhood. My neighbor two doors down, her house is still standing, the house behind us is still standing. Everything around it is destroyed. That's just the way fire works. It's very mysterious and it's complicated. But that doesn't mean it's a conspiracy, except we seek easy explanations through conspiracies. Hence everything about this fire has become grist for this endless mill of paranoia.

Yeah, it's the same paranoia. So, Mike, I lived in Hawaii and there was It started out with Marjorie Taylor Green and the Jewish space lasers starting the fires in California earlier, and then when there was the fire here on well but on Maui, the Lahinea fire. It was very quickly after that pictures started coming out of laser beams coming out of the sky after pictures, and it was the same set of conspiracy theories. And now with the California fires, it's again the same set of conspiracy theories.

Yeah, it's the same paranoia. So, Mike, I lived in Hawaii and there was It started out with Marjorie Taylor Green and the Jewish space lasers starting the fires in California earlier, and then when there was the fire here on well but on Maui, the Lahinea fire. It was very quickly after that pictures started coming out of laser beams coming out of the sky after pictures, and it was the same set of conspiracy theories. And now with the California fires, it's again the same set of conspiracy theories.

It's yeah, yeah, you're seeing a lot of the same stuff, but then there's variations on it. So the one thing that we've had that other fires haven't had. There's been a couple of things. There's the delta smelts that all the water was like siphoned off to protect this endangered fish. I mean, it's not true. But the other one that was really hyperculture were driven is the DEI firefighters. The people who were fighting the fires. They weren't qualified, they were diversity HighRes It's ridiculous. I've watched the firefighters fighting burning houses and you're not going to find people who are more devoted to their community and more selfless about risk than firefighters. Like blaming firefighters for this is a level of insane that even I never thought I was.

It's yeah, yeah, you're seeing a lot of the same stuff, but then there's variations on it. So the one thing that we've had that other fires haven't had. There's been a couple of things. There's the delta smelts that all the water was like siphoned off to protect this endangered fish. I mean, it's not true. But the other one that was really hyperculture were driven is the DEI firefighters. The people who were fighting the fires. They weren't qualified, they were diversity HighRes It's ridiculous. I've watched the firefighters fighting burning houses and you're not going to find people who are more devoted to their community and more selfless about risk than firefighters. Like blaming firefighters for this is a level of insane that even I never thought I was.

Going to see. Douglas MacArthur had this famous quote that old soldiers never die, right, they just fade away, And so his QAnon died and faded away, or his transmographied into the conspiracy theories that we're seeing now around USAID and the deep State and all the rest. Is the QAnon DNA still there, or the conspiracy theory is just changed.

Going to see. Douglas MacArthur had this famous quote that old soldiers never die, right, they just fade away, And so his QAnon died and faded away, or his transmographied into the conspiracy theories that we're seeing now around USAID and the deep State and all the rest. Is the QAnon DNA still there, or the conspiracy theory is just changed.

Yeah. I think in terms of q andon, I kind of look at it like a butterfly. It is left the chrysalis. It does not need the codes and the riddles and the message board stuff and the mysterious military intelligence avatar. The people who either believe this stuff or have no trouble monetizing it off. The people who do believe it, they're running things now. Cash Patel has promoted qwanon. He is running the FBI. We don't need the riddles and the codes and the choose your own adventure stuff anymore. They moved way beyond that. There's never going to be a need for another q drop because Donald Trump tweets this stuff every day. Now, also there's QAnon, and it is transformed into something so much bigger and so much more mainstream and more palatable than I think really anybody could have imagined even a couple of years ago.

Yeah. I think in terms of q andon, I kind of look at it like a butterfly. It is left the chrysalis. It does not need the codes and the riddles and the message board stuff and the mysterious military intelligence avatar. The people who either believe this stuff or have no trouble monetizing it off. The people who do believe it, they're running things now. Cash Patel has promoted qwanon. He is running the FBI. We don't need the riddles and the codes and the choose your own adventure stuff anymore. They moved way beyond that. There's never going to be a need for another q drop because Donald Trump tweets this stuff every day. Now, also there's QAnon, and it is transformed into something so much bigger and so much more mainstream and more palatable than I think really anybody could have imagined even a couple of years ago.

You're one of the foremost experts on conspiracy theories, and since we last talked We've been through a political campaign and we have a new administration, and we've already mentioned some of the names of the people there who are conspiracists or conspiracy theorists. Cash Pttel and he just put in as a deputy, Dan Bongino, TLCA Gabbert is over at the Director of National Intelligence. How has your life changed and how do you find yourself talking about these people and politics more and what's your view of those specific people and any others you might think of.

You're one of the foremost experts on conspiracy theories, and since we last talked We've been through a political campaign and we have a new administration, and we've already mentioned some of the names of the people there who are conspiracists or conspiracy theorists. Cash Pttel and he just put in as a deputy, Dan Bongino, TLCA Gabbert is over at the Director of National Intelligence. How has your life changed and how do you find yourself talking about these people and politics more and what's your view of those specific people and any others you might think of.

I think all of these people are grossly unqualified for the jobs they have. Ian Robert F. Kennedy Junior running Health and Human Services is just mind boggling. This is a guy who thinks that COVID nineteen was engineered to avoid Ashkenazi Jews. This is ridiculous. It has taken over every aspect of our lives, of our commerce, of our culture, of our medicine. And now you've got these people who are making these massive cuts to government, who are cutting things like researching ways to defend against the next pandemic, because then they're going to turn around and sell like supplements and raw milk on their podcasts. That are the things that are going to help you actually fight it. You've got the ameshment not just of sort of crank ideas, but of crank commerce being pushed by the people at the very top of this. It has changed everything about our government and our culture and our politics. And we're at the very beginning of this. I think the real horrors of how this is all going to unfold are really just ahead of us. You know, I was thinking the other day about how we're cutting the FAA. I mean, air traffic controllers are being fired. What happens when we get to May and families start flying around the country on summer vacations and this gutted FAA is trying to control all these planes in the air. What if a bird flu epidemic crosses over into humans at that except I mean, the ways that this could go wrong are just mind boggling. And they are inescapable. And it used to be you could compartmentalize some of this stuff. You know, QAnon was bad and it was kind of everywhere, but at least it wasn't like like Trump would talk about it like once, but it wasn't running things. And now these people are running things, and it's a whole new level of bad and we're really just at the very beginning of it.

I think all of these people are grossly unqualified for the jobs they have. Ian Robert F. Kennedy Junior running Health and Human Services is just mind boggling. This is a guy who thinks that COVID nineteen was engineered to avoid Ashkenazi Jews. This is ridiculous. It has taken over every aspect of our lives, of our commerce, of our culture, of our medicine. And now you've got these people who are making these massive cuts to government, who are cutting things like researching ways to defend against the next pandemic, because then they're going to turn around and sell like supplements and raw milk on their podcasts. That are the things that are going to help you actually fight it. You've got the ameshment not just of sort of crank ideas, but of crank commerce being pushed by the people at the very top of this. It has changed everything about our government and our culture and our politics. And we're at the very beginning of this. I think the real horrors of how this is all going to unfold are really just ahead of us. You know, I was thinking the other day about how we're cutting the FAA. I mean, air traffic controllers are being fired. What happens when we get to May and families start flying around the country on summer vacations and this gutted FAA is trying to control all these planes in the air. What if a bird flu epidemic crosses over into humans at that except I mean, the ways that this could go wrong are just mind boggling. And they are inescapable. And it used to be you could compartmentalize some of this stuff. You know, QAnon was bad and it was kind of everywhere, but at least it wasn't like like Trump would talk about it like once, but it wasn't running things. And now these people are running things, and it's a whole new level of bad and we're really just at the very beginning of it.

More of this after a quick break.

More of this after a quick break.

All right, let's get back into it.

All right, let's get back into it.

So I thought it was interesting that James Carr will come out recently and said he predicts or hopes amps that the chickens will come home to roost soon. Right, that if you have your health policy where you don't accept the germ theory of disease, or if you think the Russians are your realize you destroy your alliances, that there's real consequences to this, and when they hippen that people will get it the vast majority and turn again the conspiracy theorist because they because it's not working. I'm not sure that's the case. So when conspiracy theories don't come to pass, how do conspiracy theorists explain this away like none of the q Andon stuff happened.

So I thought it was interesting that James Carr will come out recently and said he predicts or hopes amps that the chickens will come home to roost soon. Right, that if you have your health policy where you don't accept the germ theory of disease, or if you think the Russians are your realize you destroy your alliances, that there's real consequences to this, and when they hippen that people will get it the vast majority and turn again the conspiracy theorist because they because it's not working. I'm not sure that's the case. So when conspiracy theories don't come to pass, how do conspiracy theorists explain this away like none of the q Andon stuff happened.

I certainly hope the chickens come home to roost in a way that is not horribly destructive for the country and the world. I really hope there's not another pandemic to prove how wrong they were. Nobody needs that. But conspiracy believers have a remarkable way of taking the failure of their prophecies and of their plots as confirmation that the plots are actually true. They're just coming true in a different way. There's the famous book for the nineteen fifties when prophecy fails that it's a book that everybody should read. It's the Study of a UFO cult. And it's a very small group. But they go out of the streets of Chicago and I'm freezing Christmas Eve, waiting for the saucer to come down and take them away. Well, the saucer doesn't come down and take them away. What do you do? Then a few people drift away, but the rest of these people go own away everything in my life. I've left my family and my job to live at the house with the great mother who gets the automatic writing messages from the aliens. What am I gonna do? I can't go back. And if I leave and the saucer comes tomorrow, I'm gonna feel really stupid. So you stick with it, and you rationalize it, and you find ways to make yourself believe that it's still gonna come true. It's just gonna happen in a different way. So I think you saw that constantly with QAnon, with these very very specific predictions that Hillary Clinton is going to be arrested on October thirty first, twenty seventeen. Obviously that didn't happen, and they rationalized it by saying Q was actually talking about Saudi Arabia, not Hillary Clinton. I mean, never mind that he literally said Hillary Clinton will be arrested. It doesn't matter. Once you have talked yourself into believing something outlandish, you will continue to believe that outlandish thing because the alternative is saying I was wrong, I got fooled, and now I have to go back to all the people in my life and tell them I was wrong and they were right. I mean, very few people really have the ability to do that. Conspiracy theorists will come up with new justifications, new causes for why the thing either didn't happen or why it was actually a good thing. You're starting to see that already with this measles outbreak in Texas. You're seeing wellness, people going, well, measles is actually good. We all got measles when we were a kid, and we were just fine. Well, like lot of people weren't actually just fine when they got measles. But more than that, like measles is the harbinger for things like polio. I mean, my god, can you imagine a polio outbreak in this country right now? It's unfathomable. They'll find a way to justify it and blame somebody else for it, even when it happens to them.

I certainly hope the chickens come home to roost in a way that is not horribly destructive for the country and the world. I really hope there's not another pandemic to prove how wrong they were. Nobody needs that. But conspiracy believers have a remarkable way of taking the failure of their prophecies and of their plots as confirmation that the plots are actually true. They're just coming true in a different way. There's the famous book for the nineteen fifties when prophecy fails that it's a book that everybody should read. It's the Study of a UFO cult. And it's a very small group. But they go out of the streets of Chicago and I'm freezing Christmas Eve, waiting for the saucer to come down and take them away. Well, the saucer doesn't come down and take them away. What do you do? Then a few people drift away, but the rest of these people go own away everything in my life. I've left my family and my job to live at the house with the great mother who gets the automatic writing messages from the aliens. What am I gonna do? I can't go back. And if I leave and the saucer comes tomorrow, I'm gonna feel really stupid. So you stick with it, and you rationalize it, and you find ways to make yourself believe that it's still gonna come true. It's just gonna happen in a different way. So I think you saw that constantly with QAnon, with these very very specific predictions that Hillary Clinton is going to be arrested on October thirty first, twenty seventeen. Obviously that didn't happen, and they rationalized it by saying Q was actually talking about Saudi Arabia, not Hillary Clinton. I mean, never mind that he literally said Hillary Clinton will be arrested. It doesn't matter. Once you have talked yourself into believing something outlandish, you will continue to believe that outlandish thing because the alternative is saying I was wrong, I got fooled, and now I have to go back to all the people in my life and tell them I was wrong and they were right. I mean, very few people really have the ability to do that. Conspiracy theorists will come up with new justifications, new causes for why the thing either didn't happen or why it was actually a good thing. You're starting to see that already with this measles outbreak in Texas. You're seeing wellness, people going, well, measles is actually good. We all got measles when we were a kid, and we were just fine. Well, like lot of people weren't actually just fine when they got measles. But more than that, like measles is the harbinger for things like polio. I mean, my god, can you imagine a polio outbreak in this country right now? It's unfathomable. They'll find a way to justify it and blame somebody else for it, even when it happens to them.

It's going to be very interesting to see how this works out. So since Jerry and I worked in a large organization, it was complicated. So Telsea Gabert is going into the Director of National Intelligence Kesh Pttel and Dan but Gino are going into the FBI. It's gonna be really interest to see when they're in charge because they are going to be responsible for a huge workforce with lots of things happening, and they're going to be brief every day. They could be brief. There's could be things happening. It's things in the world. Is going to be arrest there's going to be problems. There's gonna be and somehow it's easy if you're on the outside, you can just say crazy things because you're never held accountable or responsible in any way. And now you're inside and at some level you have to accept these people as your your people who work for you, because you want your organization to succeed. You want to come out and say I've made the FBI stronger and now we're doing all these better things. Are they just going to say, oh, well, we got rid of all the bad people. Now these are all geniuses and they work for me, and so everything's good because it's easy from the outside to say dumb stuff. When you're responsible for it.

It's going to be very interesting to see how this works out. So since Jerry and I worked in a large organization, it was complicated. So Telsea Gabert is going into the Director of National Intelligence Kesh Pttel and Dan but Gino are going into the FBI. It's gonna be really interest to see when they're in charge because they are going to be responsible for a huge workforce with lots of things happening, and they're going to be brief every day. They could be brief. There's could be things happening. It's things in the world. Is going to be arrest there's going to be problems. There's gonna be and somehow it's easy if you're on the outside, you can just say crazy things because you're never held accountable or responsible in any way. And now you're inside and at some level you have to accept these people as your your people who work for you, because you want your organization to succeed. You want to come out and say I've made the FBI stronger and now we're doing all these better things. Are they just going to say, oh, well, we got rid of all the bad people. Now these are all geniuses and they work for me, and so everything's good because it's easy from the outside to say dumb stuff. When you're responsible for it.

It's going to be different, right, you know, show us the aliens. If they don't show us the aliens, then they're also part of the deep state. They're captured by.

It's going to be different, right, you know, show us the aliens. If they don't show us the aliens, then they're also part of the deep state. They're captured by.

Yeah, if Trump had four years to you know, tell us who really killed JFK and show us the saucers from Roswell and it was always like, wow, I'm going to release it in two weeks and it's going to be mind blowing. And we got to just get these couple of things out of the way. That's really where QAnon came from. Is you get into kind of Trump's first year in office, and he hasn't locked up Hillary Clinton, he has not built the wall, he has not declassified all the JFK documents and exposed Barack Obama as being a Kenyan Muslim. You got to find some way to justify why he hasn't done it. If you're a Trump devotee, you can't say he hasn't done it because he's useless and it was never going to do it. As an idiot, you say, well, there, the deep State is stopping him from doing it, but we're on the inside, and we're going to show you how it's really happening in a way that can't be traced back to us. So you get the codes and the riddles and the prophecies of QAnon, and it's a way to continue to push conspiracy theories even when theoretically you have the power to make all these things go away.

Yeah, if Trump had four years to you know, tell us who really killed JFK and show us the saucers from Roswell and it was always like, wow, I'm going to release it in two weeks and it's going to be mind blowing. And we got to just get these couple of things out of the way. That's really where QAnon came from. Is you get into kind of Trump's first year in office, and he hasn't locked up Hillary Clinton, he has not built the wall, he has not declassified all the JFK documents and exposed Barack Obama as being a Kenyan Muslim. You got to find some way to justify why he hasn't done it. If you're a Trump devotee, you can't say he hasn't done it because he's useless and it was never going to do it. As an idiot, you say, well, there, the deep State is stopping him from doing it, but we're on the inside, and we're going to show you how it's really happening in a way that can't be traced back to us. So you get the codes and the riddles and the prophecies of QAnon, and it's a way to continue to push conspiracy theories even when theoretically you have the power to make all these things go away.

I think one of Trump's gifts is this ability to pretend he's on the outside even when he's on the inside. And so he created the deep state and he's doing it now, like all of a sudden, he'll be like, we don't know what's in Fort Knox. You're the president of the United States. You work the frut, You can go there any time you want. You could you get the people who are there can show you what's in there. Like that stuff works for him with a public who doesn't understand the stuff either, so he can pretend like he's one of them, even though he's actually in charge of these things.

I think one of Trump's gifts is this ability to pretend he's on the outside even when he's on the inside. And so he created the deep state and he's doing it now, like all of a sudden, he'll be like, we don't know what's in Fort Knox. You're the president of the United States. You work the frut, You can go there any time you want. You could you get the people who are there can show you what's in there. Like that stuff works for him with a public who doesn't understand the stuff either, so he can pretend like he's one of them, even though he's actually in charge of these things.

People want to be told what's happening, and they want an explanation. And when you have the president saying we don't know what's in Fort Knox, you're the president, you were already the president. You could have gone there at any time, like you could have proven the gold was or wasn't there eight years ago? What is taking so long?

People want to be told what's happening, and they want an explanation. And when you have the president saying we don't know what's in Fort Knox, you're the president, you were already the president. You could have gone there at any time, like you could have proven the gold was or wasn't there eight years ago? What is taking so long?

So, like you've done a lot of study of cult leaders and how they message and how they controlled their followings, and I'm curious as to what you think speculation about this messaging now coming you know directly from the president that joking but it's not really joking, and joking about a third term and also calling himself king increasingly now when a cult leader starts giving themselves complete control, where the laws of political laws, in the laws of gravity, by economics don't apply to them, they believe. So what do you think is going on there with that?

So, like you've done a lot of study of cult leaders and how they message and how they controlled their followings, and I'm curious as to what you think speculation about this messaging now coming you know directly from the president that joking but it's not really joking, and joking about a third term and also calling himself king increasingly now when a cult leader starts giving themselves complete control, where the laws of political laws, in the laws of gravity, by economics don't apply to them, they believe. So what do you think is going on there with that?

If you watch these speeches? I mean, remember those cabinet meetings from Trump's first term where you just go around the table and every single person there would just lavish him with praise. And those were sort of the non Trump outsider people. Now he's nominating people who are just conspiracy podcasters who just worship the ground he walks on. You know, I know that there's always been this thing of like, oh, do we take Trump seriously? Do we take him literally? Is it just a joke? Is he trolling? First of all, the guy has no ability to be funny, so he's never it's hard to tell sometimes what he means in the moment, and he's always been like that. But when he talks about himself like a king, nobody would say that unless they believed at least some part of it. I think he really does believe he is the king of America. I mean, do I think he's going to try to run for a third term. I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he's going to be coherent in four years. But just the fact that he continues to talk about this and he continues to rile up his fan base to believe that he has the ability to do this. The law just does not apply to him. But you also fear for the next iteration of Trump and whether that's jd Vance and I don't think it is, but somebody may be a decade or two down the line. Who takes the techniques that Trump was able to use in his decades of being on TV and being a tabloid fixture and actually apply them to a coherent, competent version of fascism in a way that really hasn't even presented itself yet.

If you watch these speeches? I mean, remember those cabinet meetings from Trump's first term where you just go around the table and every single person there would just lavish him with praise. And those were sort of the non Trump outsider people. Now he's nominating people who are just conspiracy podcasters who just worship the ground he walks on. You know, I know that there's always been this thing of like, oh, do we take Trump seriously? Do we take him literally? Is it just a joke? Is he trolling? First of all, the guy has no ability to be funny, so he's never it's hard to tell sometimes what he means in the moment, and he's always been like that. But when he talks about himself like a king, nobody would say that unless they believed at least some part of it. I think he really does believe he is the king of America. I mean, do I think he's going to try to run for a third term. I honestly have no idea. I don't know if he's going to be coherent in four years. But just the fact that he continues to talk about this and he continues to rile up his fan base to believe that he has the ability to do this. The law just does not apply to him. But you also fear for the next iteration of Trump and whether that's jd Vance and I don't think it is, but somebody may be a decade or two down the line. Who takes the techniques that Trump was able to use in his decades of being on TV and being a tabloid fixture and actually apply them to a coherent, competent version of fascism in a way that really hasn't even presented itself yet.

Hold on just a second, Well we take a quick break.

Hold on just a second, Well we take a quick break.

Let's get back into it.

Let's get back into it.

Jerry and I want to take advantage of your expertise here. You can maybe help us with this as podcasters. Can you help us monetize what we're doing, Like what conspiracies can make us the most money? What should we jump on where there's some money that we can sort of go after.

Jerry and I want to take advantage of your expertise here. You can maybe help us with this as podcasters. Can you help us monetize what we're doing, Like what conspiracies can make us the most money? What should we jump on where there's some money that we can sort of go after.

Wait, I wish I knew, you know. I've had people who've been like, oh, you know you understand conspiracy theories, so well, why don't you start like an alternate, you know, anonymous version of yourself pushing this stuff and you can cash in on Like, I guess I could do that, but I just to be able to sleep at night. There is so much money in the fear mongering and the plot creation that these guys are able to do. Bongino was able to do it because he was a secret Service agent for a little bit of time, and he parlayed that into this sort of screaming incoherence about liberals. And it really is just taking the most hateful, most paranoid stuff that really dials into the fear that has been on the far right for a long time. And there is just a limitless pool of money to be able to fund stuff like that. I just think you have to not have a soul or a conscience to be able to tap into it.

Wait, I wish I knew, you know. I've had people who've been like, oh, you know you understand conspiracy theories, so well, why don't you start like an alternate, you know, anonymous version of yourself pushing this stuff and you can cash in on Like, I guess I could do that, but I just to be able to sleep at night. There is so much money in the fear mongering and the plot creation that these guys are able to do. Bongino was able to do it because he was a secret Service agent for a little bit of time, and he parlayed that into this sort of screaming incoherence about liberals. And it really is just taking the most hateful, most paranoid stuff that really dials into the fear that has been on the far right for a long time. And there is just a limitless pool of money to be able to fund stuff like that. I just think you have to not have a soul or a conscience to be able to tap into it.

The way we can monetize this, John is not to create our own conspiracy theories, but to sell our souls exactly as you say, Yeah, I don't know how much my soul can be monetized as But like jd Vance, who was calling Trump Hitler two years ago, or Mark Rubio, I think what we need to do is we need to like become turncoats to reality and rationality, and we need to like buy in. So people like Mark Rubio, who I've briefed in the past, right, I have at least a sort of an understanding of how he operates. He's an intelligent guy. I got to assume that he knows that this shit isn't true. And Jady Vance too. I don't know. I don't have any interactions with him. The problem, of course, is around Trump now, no one will say no to him when he says I'm king. They all have to say yes or they're gone. Right, there's no guardrails anymore.

The way we can monetize this, John is not to create our own conspiracy theories, but to sell our souls exactly as you say, Yeah, I don't know how much my soul can be monetized as But like jd Vance, who was calling Trump Hitler two years ago, or Mark Rubio, I think what we need to do is we need to like become turncoats to reality and rationality, and we need to like buy in. So people like Mark Rubio, who I've briefed in the past, right, I have at least a sort of an understanding of how he operates. He's an intelligent guy. I got to assume that he knows that this shit isn't true. And Jady Vance too. I don't know. I don't have any interactions with him. The problem, of course, is around Trump now, no one will say no to him when he says I'm king. They all have to say yes or they're gone. Right, there's no guardrails anymore.

Yeah, it's been really fascinating watching Congressional Republicans stand there as Elon Musk and his doze door go in and essentially take control of federal spending, which is the thing that the House is supposed to do it. Why would House Republicans, who presumably have fought so hard and work so hard to get this power, why are they just giving it up? Why are they just standing there? Is it fear? Is it just laziness? And you just don't know. And I think for a lot of the especially the really vociferous anti Trump Republicans who have licked the boot and gone in, people like Rubio, people like Lindsey Graham, I think for them, it's this is what's happening, and I can either be part of it, or I can get cast out and I can either be ostracized by the President, or I can play golf with him, and I can either be banned from Fox News or I can be on Fox News whenever I want. So you just go along to get along, and you realize that Trump is not going to be president forever, this will end at some point. Then you can, you know, make your big Maya culpa and go, oh, I had to go along with it because somebody had to be in charge, somebody had to be the adult in the road. Complete nonsense. But if you can get some people in your district to go along with it, then you can have played both sides. Or you just take your big payoff, maybe sign a book deal and get on the speaker's circuit and just right off into the sunset once this is all over. So I think for a lot of these people, it's just self preservation. It's just a way to continue to have the status that you have, continue to have the access that you have, continue to be invited to the important parties, and you get to play golf with the president and the prime ministers and whatever, and if you have to eat some crap for a while to do it, that's just part of the thing. And I think that's probably the simplest explanation. It's the most craven and cowardly one, but a lot of these people are just craven cowards.

Yeah, it's been really fascinating watching Congressional Republicans stand there as Elon Musk and his doze door go in and essentially take control of federal spending, which is the thing that the House is supposed to do it. Why would House Republicans, who presumably have fought so hard and work so hard to get this power, why are they just giving it up? Why are they just standing there? Is it fear? Is it just laziness? And you just don't know. And I think for a lot of the especially the really vociferous anti Trump Republicans who have licked the boot and gone in, people like Rubio, people like Lindsey Graham, I think for them, it's this is what's happening, and I can either be part of it, or I can get cast out and I can either be ostracized by the President, or I can play golf with him, and I can either be banned from Fox News or I can be on Fox News whenever I want. So you just go along to get along, and you realize that Trump is not going to be president forever, this will end at some point. Then you can, you know, make your big Maya culpa and go, oh, I had to go along with it because somebody had to be in charge, somebody had to be the adult in the road. Complete nonsense. But if you can get some people in your district to go along with it, then you can have played both sides. Or you just take your big payoff, maybe sign a book deal and get on the speaker's circuit and just right off into the sunset once this is all over. So I think for a lot of these people, it's just self preservation. It's just a way to continue to have the status that you have, continue to have the access that you have, continue to be invited to the important parties, and you get to play golf with the president and the prime ministers and whatever, and if you have to eat some crap for a while to do it, that's just part of the thing. And I think that's probably the simplest explanation. It's the most craven and cowardly one, but a lot of these people are just craven cowards.

Yeah, so as long as you have no prior conscience, that way to go.

Yeah, so as long as you have no prior conscience, that way to go.

Yeah, having lived in places with dictators, iconography is really important. Go to any Soviet Union, ay of those countries. The picture the leader is there, right, the picture of Hitler, the picture of Stalin. And yet now, at least for me and for a lot of people I know, the iconography of Trump is Trump sitting behind a desk, saying nothing, as a man in a black jacket and black shirt with a black who feels so comfortable that he can bring his kid to run around inside of them. What's your what's your sense? Elon? The unique feature of Elon Musk. He seems to be the perfect person to build conspiracy theories around, and yet I don't see a lot of him being the center of conspiracy theories right now.

Yeah, having lived in places with dictators, iconography is really important. Go to any Soviet Union, ay of those countries. The picture the leader is there, right, the picture of Hitler, the picture of Stalin. And yet now, at least for me and for a lot of people I know, the iconography of Trump is Trump sitting behind a desk, saying nothing, as a man in a black jacket and black shirt with a black who feels so comfortable that he can bring his kid to run around inside of them. What's your what's your sense? Elon? The unique feature of Elon Musk. He seems to be the perfect person to build conspiracy theories around, and yet I don't see a lot of him being the center of conspiracy theories right now.

The Trump people, they all love Musk because I think they see Musk a lot like they see Trump, and the way they see Trump is an extension of themselves. The Trump and Musk are the guys they want to be. They are rich, they're powerful, They've got lots of kids, There's lots of different beautiful women. They can do whatever they want, They can say whatever they want. That's the image that a lot of these people have created for themselves. Of course, they'll never get there, because Trump and Muscle were both into money, and they both got very lucky in a lot of different ways, and they've created this image for themselves. I think with Musk and this sort of dominance and this kind of relationship with Trump, it's it's a kind of a wild card because you would think that Trump's ego is so gigantic and his need to be the guy and the center of attention is so all consuming that like, how could he sit there and have Elon Musk howering over him and letting his kid like talk smacked him? Like what dictator with total control over his image would allow that to happen. And I do start to wonder, and I hate speculating about these people's like mental states or physical states, but you do kind of wonder how much is Trump actually there? How with it is he is he really realizing that he looks like a letting himself be physically dominated by Elon Musk and like doing co interviews with Sean Hannity with Elon Musk, he's the president he's the king. The King doesn't do co interviews. It's like Woodrow Wilson after his stroke in nineteen eighteen, when it was like, oh, his wife is actually kind of running things. You could do that in nineteen eighteen because there was no real mass media and there were no nuclear weapons. I mean, the things moved slowly then. It's hard to do that now and the stakes are a lot higher, and I do wonder how long this can continue.

The Trump people, they all love Musk because I think they see Musk a lot like they see Trump, and the way they see Trump is an extension of themselves. The Trump and Musk are the guys they want to be. They are rich, they're powerful, They've got lots of kids, There's lots of different beautiful women. They can do whatever they want, They can say whatever they want. That's the image that a lot of these people have created for themselves. Of course, they'll never get there, because Trump and Muscle were both into money, and they both got very lucky in a lot of different ways, and they've created this image for themselves. I think with Musk and this sort of dominance and this kind of relationship with Trump, it's it's a kind of a wild card because you would think that Trump's ego is so gigantic and his need to be the guy and the center of attention is so all consuming that like, how could he sit there and have Elon Musk howering over him and letting his kid like talk smacked him? Like what dictator with total control over his image would allow that to happen. And I do start to wonder, and I hate speculating about these people's like mental states or physical states, but you do kind of wonder how much is Trump actually there? How with it is he is he really realizing that he looks like a letting himself be physically dominated by Elon Musk and like doing co interviews with Sean Hannity with Elon Musk, he's the president he's the king. The King doesn't do co interviews. It's like Woodrow Wilson after his stroke in nineteen eighteen, when it was like, oh, his wife is actually kind of running things. You could do that in nineteen eighteen because there was no real mass media and there were no nuclear weapons. I mean, the things moved slowly then. It's hard to do that now and the stakes are a lot higher, and I do wonder how long this can continue.

I'm of the view that Trump has always been not very smart and becoming less so whether he's there or not. But he does have incredible animal instincts, and I think Musk serves a purpose for him because when anything really goes wrong, he can just throw him under the bus and blame Musk, not himself. He can say, well, a Musk is doing that, I'm not really paying attention. He's deflecting any accountability from himself, and he has a real gift for that. But there are in terms of Musk, are there conspiracies that were starting to see there with the tech bros And Silicon Valley and Elon Musk and a number of these people who came from South Africa. Musk wants to send people to Mars. There's been some interesting interviews lately with Kara Swisher, who wrote reports on Silicon Billy, talking about this sort of view that the present order needs to be destroyed and government needs to be destroyed so that we can prepare to go to Mars and all these other kind of things that Muskt, you know, and wants to destroy things to benefit himself, and in the process he's involved in things that are helping his companies at the same time. And so there's enough things floating around there that if the Left wants to create conspiracy theories, there's plenty there. And maybe in fact there's a little bit of conspiracy there too. I think there's a lot of truth in a lot of these things. I think Musk is enormously a megalomaniacal. I think he is someone who really.

I'm of the view that Trump has always been not very smart and becoming less so whether he's there or not. But he does have incredible animal instincts, and I think Musk serves a purpose for him because when anything really goes wrong, he can just throw him under the bus and blame Musk, not himself. He can say, well, a Musk is doing that, I'm not really paying attention. He's deflecting any accountability from himself, and he has a real gift for that. But there are in terms of Musk, are there conspiracies that were starting to see there with the tech bros And Silicon Valley and Elon Musk and a number of these people who came from South Africa. Musk wants to send people to Mars. There's been some interesting interviews lately with Kara Swisher, who wrote reports on Silicon Billy, talking about this sort of view that the present order needs to be destroyed and government needs to be destroyed so that we can prepare to go to Mars and all these other kind of things that Muskt, you know, and wants to destroy things to benefit himself, and in the process he's involved in things that are helping his companies at the same time. And so there's enough things floating around there that if the Left wants to create conspiracy theories, there's plenty there. And maybe in fact there's a little bit of conspiracy there too. I think there's a lot of truth in a lot of these things. I think Musk is enormously a megalomaniacal. I think he is someone who really.

Wants to have everything. He wondered, like, why would the richest man in the world need to ruin the United States government so that SpaceX can get a leg up on its competitors. It makes no sense to the vast majority of us. But if you've got that kind of instinct to gather so much money that no one else has more money than you. Then you're never gonna stop you never going to stop gathering money, You're never going to stop destroying your competitors until it's just you at the end. And then you're like sitting alone on your Marcian colony and no one else is there, and you're going, oh, maybe this wasn't a great idea. I think that's a kind of greed and a kind of megalomania that we've never seen in our government. I mean, we've obviously seen sort of heady grift in governments, but never like this, I mean, never this kind of messianic desire to destroy everything and take everything.

Wants to have everything. He wondered, like, why would the richest man in the world need to ruin the United States government so that SpaceX can get a leg up on its competitors. It makes no sense to the vast majority of us. But if you've got that kind of instinct to gather so much money that no one else has more money than you. Then you're never gonna stop you never going to stop gathering money, You're never going to stop destroying your competitors until it's just you at the end. And then you're like sitting alone on your Marcian colony and no one else is there, and you're going, oh, maybe this wasn't a great idea. I think that's a kind of greed and a kind of megalomania that we've never seen in our government. I mean, we've obviously seen sort of heady grift in governments, but never like this, I mean, never this kind of messianic desire to destroy everything and take everything.

People think it can't get that bad. You need to look at history a little bit. Look at what Mao did with a Great leave forward. He destroyed the Chinese economy for for thirty years, what Stalin did during the purges and the Great Famines, what pot and khmar resotion was going to be my lands one, but I was going to go with Argentina, with Juan Perill right, who completely destroyed the Argentine economy, which was one of the richest economies in the world in the nineteen forties. And so yeah, it can get way worse. Unless we like were together and try to establish this.

People think it can't get that bad. You need to look at history a little bit. Look at what Mao did with a Great leave forward. He destroyed the Chinese economy for for thirty years, what Stalin did during the purges and the Great Famines, what pot and khmar resotion was going to be my lands one, but I was going to go with Argentina, with Juan Perill right, who completely destroyed the Argentine economy, which was one of the richest economies in the world in the nineteen forties. And so yeah, it can get way worse. Unless we like were together and try to establish this.

But one of the things that I think sometimes we say, oh, these people around Trump there, they're crazy, of they're conspiracy theorists. We call them lutex some of them Trump himself and I think Musk too, are good at weaponizing conspiracy theory. So they did this. They decided they were going to kill the USAID, which is actually not a big powerful organization, and they immediately created stories that are insane that that is the biggest criminal organization ever, that these people are lunatics, left wing lunatics. Marxist is maybe the biggest fraud ever put on the American which is just like, it's so not it's just a small organization that money from Congress and often from our farmers to places overseas that we need to believe help. So like they spread those conspiracy theories so that when people see this happening, they're like, like, by thank God that they're dealing with these horrible things that have been happening in our government. I'm like, how do you start with that. It's like they've created a fake conspiracy theory and they pump it and and they have the soapbox and I just put.

But one of the things that I think sometimes we say, oh, these people around Trump there, they're crazy, of they're conspiracy theorists. We call them lutex some of them Trump himself and I think Musk too, are good at weaponizing conspiracy theory. So they did this. They decided they were going to kill the USAID, which is actually not a big powerful organization, and they immediately created stories that are insane that that is the biggest criminal organization ever, that these people are lunatics, left wing lunatics. Marxist is maybe the biggest fraud ever put on the American which is just like, it's so not it's just a small organization that money from Congress and often from our farmers to places overseas that we need to believe help. So like they spread those conspiracy theories so that when people see this happening, they're like, like, by thank God that they're dealing with these horrible things that have been happening in our government. I'm like, how do you start with that. It's like they've created a fake conspiracy theory and they pump it and and they have the soapbox and I just put.

It up in and say, if USAID was a criminal organization, why didn't Trump get rid of it when he was there for four years? Has over the Congress have been overseeing it since it's inception? That's right. And Ivanka Trump was part of it, right, She was involved in a number of USAID initiatives and made money off of it.

It up in and say, if USAID was a criminal organization, why didn't Trump get rid of it when he was there for four years? Has over the Congress have been overseeing it since it's inception? That's right. And Ivanka Trump was part of it, right, She was involved in a number of USAID initiatives and made money off of it.

Yeah, it's a really classic logical fallacy. It's the straw man argument. You create a villain or an argument, and you are the one who then solves. You're the one who solves the problem that you created, or you win the argument against the thing that you made up. It's a really easy way to look smart and look like you're doing something and look like you're getting a big win. I think in terms of these very early days of Trump and these giant government cuts, they needed a win. They needed something that they could look at and publicly point to as the That is an example of how the Democrats and the other Rhino Republicans were wasting your money. They were taking your hard earned tax payer dollars and giving it to Hamas to you know, have sex, or giving it to some study of the Botswana fruit fly. And they're giving it to our enemies, and they're taking away from they're taking food from the tables of Americans and giving it away. Never Mind that it's not true. Never mind that this is a program that really has a lot of really important functions in terms of projecting US power around the world in terms of like feeding children, which you would think that we would all be okay with, in particularly the Republicans who were all marching in the streets to save the children four years ago. But people don't understand it, and they've never heard of it. And if the first thing they've heard of it is it's bad and it's run by evil people and we're stopping it, you go, oh, thank god. This thing that i'd never heard of until five minutes ago that was ruining my life, apparently now it's being stopped. I mean, you've got food that Congress had appropriated the money for that is just sitting there rotting that could have gone to help people, and it's not because Elon Musk has cooked up conspiracy theory about Ben Stiller getting paid to go to Ukraine's. It's crazy, but it's also it fills that need that all conspiracies fill for a villain for a bad guy and for a secret plot that your friends and the people you respect are exposed.

Yeah, it's a really classic logical fallacy. It's the straw man argument. You create a villain or an argument, and you are the one who then solves. You're the one who solves the problem that you created, or you win the argument against the thing that you made up. It's a really easy way to look smart and look like you're doing something and look like you're getting a big win. I think in terms of these very early days of Trump and these giant government cuts, they needed a win. They needed something that they could look at and publicly point to as the That is an example of how the Democrats and the other Rhino Republicans were wasting your money. They were taking your hard earned tax payer dollars and giving it to Hamas to you know, have sex, or giving it to some study of the Botswana fruit fly. And they're giving it to our enemies, and they're taking away from they're taking food from the tables of Americans and giving it away. Never Mind that it's not true. Never mind that this is a program that really has a lot of really important functions in terms of projecting US power around the world in terms of like feeding children, which you would think that we would all be okay with, in particularly the Republicans who were all marching in the streets to save the children four years ago. But people don't understand it, and they've never heard of it. And if the first thing they've heard of it is it's bad and it's run by evil people and we're stopping it, you go, oh, thank god. This thing that i'd never heard of until five minutes ago that was ruining my life, apparently now it's being stopped. I mean, you've got food that Congress had appropriated the money for that is just sitting there rotting that could have gone to help people, and it's not because Elon Musk has cooked up conspiracy theory about Ben Stiller getting paid to go to Ukraine's. It's crazy, but it's also it fills that need that all conspiracies fill for a villain for a bad guy and for a secret plot that your friends and the people you respect are exposed.

Mike, we could speak to you for a much longer on these kind of things, but we want to have you on again absolute because we're gonna need There's going to be continued conspiracies in our government and around our lives. But thank you again for spending so much time with us, and what you're doing on our political front is very helpful.

Mike, we could speak to you for a much longer on these kind of things, but we want to have you on again absolute because we're gonna need There's going to be continued conspiracies in our government and around our lives. But thank you again for spending so much time with us, and what you're doing on our political front is very helpful.

Thank you, guys, this is great.

Thank you, guys, this is great.

Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'Shea, John Ceipher, and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission Implausible It's a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures for iHeart Podcasts

Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'Shea, John Ceipher, and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission Implausible It's a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures for iHeart Podcasts