There are some bodies buried, so to speak, not actual ones, but you know, there's a body buried in the Rise of the NBA, and he was ruthless and he wielded his power. So certainly a person who would have conceived of this not a question.

There are some bodies buried, so to speak, not actual ones, but you know, there's a body buried in the Rise of the NBA, and he was ruthless and he wielded his power. So certainly a person who would have conceived of this not a question.

I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry o'she.

I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry o'she.

I served in the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, living undercover all around the world.

I served in the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, living undercover all around the world.

And in my thirty three years with the CIA, I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East.

And in my thirty three years with the CIA, I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East.

Although we don't usually look at it this way, we created conspiracies.

Although we don't usually look at it this way, we created conspiracies.

In our operations. We got people to believe things that weren't true.

In our operations. We got people to believe things that weren't true.

Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the news almost every day.

Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the news almost every day.

Will break them down for you to determine whether they could be real or whether we're being manipulated.

Will break them down for you to determine whether they could be real or whether we're being manipulated.

Welcome to Mission Implausible.

Welcome to Mission Implausible.

And on sports and espionage. A lot of people don't realize it, but when John and I were serving abroad, we're looking for ways to meet other diplomats so we can assess them and so forth. And one of the things sometimes we do is we organize sports events. Is one country where foolishly, we organized a soccer tournament for all the diplomats that we could get into them, and we went up against the Egyptians and we got the first goal and we lost twenty two to one.

And on sports and espionage. A lot of people don't realize it, but when John and I were serving abroad, we're looking for ways to meet other diplomats so we can assess them and so forth. And one of the things sometimes we do is we organize sports events. Is one country where foolishly, we organized a soccer tournament for all the diplomats that we could get into them, and we went up against the Egyptians and we got the first goal and we lost twenty two to one.

It was never up.

It was never up.

Afterwards, We're like, we're the CIA.

Afterwards, We're like, we're the CIA.

We should have challenged them to like baseball.

We should have challenged them to like baseball.

And they say intelligence is your middle name.

And they say intelligence is your middle name.

Yeah, that's true. I remember my first tour.

Yeah, that's true. I remember my first tour.

I was in the Scandinavia, an international soccer team that we tried to get all the diplomats on to play against the different businesses there and stuff, so we could get the Russians and the Hungarians and everybody on during the Cold War, and we had a volleyball tournat where the American embassy played against the Russians, and yeah, it is true. We would just get hammered every time. And I never I played football on lacross and basketball. I never played soccer, so I had to play goaliecause I don't even know how to.

I was in the Scandinavia, an international soccer team that we tried to get all the diplomats on to play against the different businesses there and stuff, so we could get the Russians and the Hungarians and everybody on during the Cold War, and we had a volleyball tournat where the American embassy played against the Russians, and yeah, it is true. We would just get hammered every time. And I never I played football on lacross and basketball. I never played soccer, so I had to play goaliecause I don't even know how to.

This is really funny, but I do have to say we did pay a softball tournament because we're all getting older. And see I didn't run it, but we had a lot of guys in there. Was allowed us to travel so farth and it was in Africa. It was in Zimbabwe, and of course the capital of Zimbabwe is Hurrari and the name of our team was the Hurrari Krishna's.

This is really funny, but I do have to say we did pay a softball tournament because we're all getting older. And see I didn't run it, but we had a lot of guys in there. Was allowed us to travel so farth and it was in Africa. It was in Zimbabwe, and of course the capital of Zimbabwe is Hurrari and the name of our team was the Hurrari Krishna's.

That's very funny, but that was our cover.

That's very funny, but that was our cover.

Right.

Right.

I'm impressed you guys can talk this much about sports, because my impression of both.

I'm impressed you guys can talk this much about sports, because my impression of both.

Of you is your geeks and you don't know about so I am a geek and I'm not ashamed of it, even though you said that in a way that made me think you thought I should be for some reason.

Of you is your geeks and you don't know about so I am a geek and I'm not ashamed of it, even though you said that in a way that made me think you thought I should be for some reason.

Correct.

Correct.

Correct, And I have never had even the slightest interest in sports, although now because I'm a good father to a lovely young man named Asher who's twelve and completely obsessed, particularly with basketball, although any sport. I'm in my mid fifties and I'm discovering sports for the first time, and we're Celtic's household and two years wait.

Correct, And I have never had even the slightest interest in sports, although now because I'm a good father to a lovely young man named Asher who's twelve and completely obsessed, particularly with basketball, although any sport. I'm in my mid fifties and I'm discovering sports for the first time, and we're Celtic's household and two years wait.

Wait, wait a minute, wait a minute.

Wait, wait a minute, wait a minute.

You're a New Yorker, but you know living in Vermont, so you've chosen Boston over New York.

You're a New Yorker, but you know living in Vermont, so you've chosen Boston over New York.

Actually good. So my dad is a sports fanatic. In fact, he's such a sports fanatic that it helps explain why I'm not a Spartan at it, and so I grew up in a Boston household and I just didn't care. But then Vermont is Celtics country, Red Sox, Celtics, Patriots, Ruins, and my son is obsessed with all of them. And I will say, following for the first time in my life, like the year like the Celtics had quite two years, but my son gets these conspiracy theories, like he really will believe like the refs are on the take. There's no way like they were, even though the next day you read the papers and they're like, no, the reps were equally, but it's like they just hate the Celtics. They're killing. But it just made me realize if the Celtics had lost. For those of our listeners who like me, are geeks and don't care that much, the Celtics did win the NBA Championship to become the winningest team with eighteen.

Actually good. So my dad is a sports fanatic. In fact, he's such a sports fanatic that it helps explain why I'm not a Spartan at it, and so I grew up in a Boston household and I just didn't care. But then Vermont is Celtics country, Red Sox, Celtics, Patriots, Ruins, and my son is obsessed with all of them. And I will say, following for the first time in my life, like the year like the Celtics had quite two years, but my son gets these conspiracy theories, like he really will believe like the refs are on the take. There's no way like they were, even though the next day you read the papers and they're like, no, the reps were equally, but it's like they just hate the Celtics. They're killing. But it just made me realize if the Celtics had lost. For those of our listeners who like me, are geeks and don't care that much, the Celtics did win the NBA Championship to become the winningest team with eighteen.

All right, all right, move on here to the conspiracy partist.

All right, all right, move on here to the conspiracy partist.

But it made me see how I could. It's just so emotional, you're so invested, and the narrative ends with them winning, and if they don't win, there has to be some reason why they didn't win and it can't be fair. But then you realize there's thirty teams that have fans who feel that way.

But it made me see how I could. It's just so emotional, you're so invested, and the narrative ends with them winning, and if they don't win, there has to be some reason why they didn't win and it can't be fair. But then you realize there's thirty teams that have fans who feel that way.

But I will say very often, CIA guys are the worst sports fans because we get sent abroad for ten fifteen years at a time and you're living in Africa or the Middle East. You're not getting the sports scores and things like that, and you start losing. It is none of the people you talk to even know what baseball is. That's the one like rugby. No, it's the one like cricket. It's the one like cricket.

But I will say very often, CIA guys are the worst sports fans because we get sent abroad for ten fifteen years at a time and you're living in Africa or the Middle East. You're not getting the sports scores and things like that, and you start losing. It is none of the people you talk to even know what baseball is. That's the one like rugby. No, it's the one like cricket. It's the one like cricket.

It's like they nowadays you can watch like ESPN and all kind of stuff. When I first started, when I first one overseas, yeah, you just got the local television or radio or whatever. You had none of the stuff from the US.

It's like they nowadays you can watch like ESPN and all kind of stuff. When I first started, when I first one overseas, yeah, you just got the local television or radio or whatever. You had none of the stuff from the US.

We can sit down and we can talk to a Burmese kernel till the cows come home. But put us together with someone who's a Mets fan right from New York and like, I don't know, I have no idea what to talk.

We can sit down and we can talk to a Burmese kernel till the cows come home. But put us together with someone who's a Mets fan right from New York and like, I don't know, I have no idea what to talk.

Stay away from that fans.

Stay away from that fans.

That's smart. Yeah.

That's smart. Yeah.

So our guest today is Chris Ballard. Chris is a journalist, author and a recent senior writer at Sports Illustrated for over twenty three years. He's written books on a variety of sports subjects and is currently working on a book for Simon and Schuster. So today you want to speak with him about an article that he wrote about a conspiracy surrounding the NBA Draft. Chris, can you outline a little bit about that story for us?

So our guest today is Chris Ballard. Chris is a journalist, author and a recent senior writer at Sports Illustrated for over twenty three years. He's written books on a variety of sports subjects and is currently working on a book for Simon and Schuster. So today you want to speak with him about an article that he wrote about a conspiracy surrounding the NBA Draft. Chris, can you outline a little bit about that story for us?

Sure?

Sure?

The nineteen eighty five NBA Draft went down as one of the most controversial elements in NBA history. We looked back on it at Sports Illustrated more than twenty years later and had seen this continued interest in how it happened, in how Patrick Ewing ended up with the New York Knicks at the exact time when New York needed a dominant big man and despite the odds against them. An editor I had there assigned me the story and I started digging into this controversy, assuming I might not get that far because people had dug into it for about twenty plus years at this point, and they'd created YouTube videos and analyzed it like it was a Bruder film. And in the end I was able to talk to David Stern, who was the commissioner during this time, he's now passed away, and I was surprised that he actually would speak about it. And I'm not sure sure how much of a definitive answer was possible or will ever be, but it definitely added its some intrigue to it. The NBA in nineteen eighty four was in a rough place. They had not quite yet reached the era of Michael Jordan and Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were in the league, but they were just coming up and it hadn't created this great marketing bonanza that it would end up creating. So at the time, the NBA was trying to gain legitimacy, which sounds a little bit weird now, but this is an era when they had come off widespread drug use problems With the NBA, they were showing their telecasts on tape delay, They did not have cultural clout, and one of the issues was that it felt like there was there was no good sense of parody in the league, and that lays down to the draft. So at the end of each season prior to nineteen eighty five, the worst teams in the league would have the best chance of getting the best players coming out of college. So if there was a really impressive college star Rick Berry, a Luel cinder Bill Russell, whichever NBA team had done the worst the year before had a very good one and two chance of getting that player, because the teams with the two worst records at the end of the year would flip a coin, and whoever on the coin flip got the number one pick in the draft, and whoever lost the coin flip got the number two pick in the draft. So, if you knew a really good player was about to graduate college and enter the NBA, and during this era, you could intentionally lose games, and this is something that teams were doing. And so this happened for a few years in a row. And what occurred is David Stern, who is then the new commissioner of the NBA, realized he had a legitimacy problem. People saw the NBA as a league where teams were intentionally losing games to try to game the system. And so what he did is he instituted the first draft lottery, which meant that rather than a coin flip where you had a one and two chance of getting the first pick, instead the teams with these seven worst records would all have an equal chance at that worst pick, So you're going from fifty percent to fourteen percent, and they would be decided by a random drawing, in this case from a giant bubble. Now we're familiar with it for pink punk balls, and this is going it HAPs to be going into a draft when the most valuable and well known NBA draft prospect in that era was coming out, Patrick Ewing, seven foot one center from Georgetown, one of the most famous athletes in the country at the time. Is back when college basketball was more popular in many ways in the NBA. So whoever won this prize, whoever got Patrick Ewing, would immediately become not only a potential contender or at least a very good team, and then probably for a decade after, but would sell tickets, they would sell merchandise, they would get buzz and just so happens that New York, the biggest media market in the country, finally has a down season that year, and just so happens that New York ends up winning this fourteen percent chance, and so Patrick Ewing goes to New York, which is where David Stern, the commissioner, is from. So when this happens, there was and immediately a lot of pushback, and people were saying, how is it that Patrick Ewing ends up in New York. They've watched this televised draft lottery and they start coming up with theories. The very corner of the envelope of the Knicks when they were drawn from this quote random drawing, it's creased, so obviously David Stern knew that he was picking the Nick's envelope, or they had put the envelope in a freezer prior to putting it in this drum. So David Stern put his hand in and just reached for the frozen envelope, and thus was born a controversy, a conspiracy theory that has continued still to this day about whether or not the NBA rigged the nineteen eighty five draft lottery to ensure the best player went to the biggest media market.

The nineteen eighty five NBA Draft went down as one of the most controversial elements in NBA history. We looked back on it at Sports Illustrated more than twenty years later and had seen this continued interest in how it happened, in how Patrick Ewing ended up with the New York Knicks at the exact time when New York needed a dominant big man and despite the odds against them. An editor I had there assigned me the story and I started digging into this controversy, assuming I might not get that far because people had dug into it for about twenty plus years at this point, and they'd created YouTube videos and analyzed it like it was a Bruder film. And in the end I was able to talk to David Stern, who was the commissioner during this time, he's now passed away, and I was surprised that he actually would speak about it. And I'm not sure sure how much of a definitive answer was possible or will ever be, but it definitely added its some intrigue to it. The NBA in nineteen eighty four was in a rough place. They had not quite yet reached the era of Michael Jordan and Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were in the league, but they were just coming up and it hadn't created this great marketing bonanza that it would end up creating. So at the time, the NBA was trying to gain legitimacy, which sounds a little bit weird now, but this is an era when they had come off widespread drug use problems With the NBA, they were showing their telecasts on tape delay, They did not have cultural clout, and one of the issues was that it felt like there was there was no good sense of parody in the league, and that lays down to the draft. So at the end of each season prior to nineteen eighty five, the worst teams in the league would have the best chance of getting the best players coming out of college. So if there was a really impressive college star Rick Berry, a Luel cinder Bill Russell, whichever NBA team had done the worst the year before had a very good one and two chance of getting that player, because the teams with the two worst records at the end of the year would flip a coin, and whoever on the coin flip got the number one pick in the draft, and whoever lost the coin flip got the number two pick in the draft. So, if you knew a really good player was about to graduate college and enter the NBA, and during this era, you could intentionally lose games, and this is something that teams were doing. And so this happened for a few years in a row. And what occurred is David Stern, who is then the new commissioner of the NBA, realized he had a legitimacy problem. People saw the NBA as a league where teams were intentionally losing games to try to game the system. And so what he did is he instituted the first draft lottery, which meant that rather than a coin flip where you had a one and two chance of getting the first pick, instead the teams with these seven worst records would all have an equal chance at that worst pick, So you're going from fifty percent to fourteen percent, and they would be decided by a random drawing, in this case from a giant bubble. Now we're familiar with it for pink punk balls, and this is going it HAPs to be going into a draft when the most valuable and well known NBA draft prospect in that era was coming out, Patrick Ewing, seven foot one center from Georgetown, one of the most famous athletes in the country at the time. Is back when college basketball was more popular in many ways in the NBA. So whoever won this prize, whoever got Patrick Ewing, would immediately become not only a potential contender or at least a very good team, and then probably for a decade after, but would sell tickets, they would sell merchandise, they would get buzz and just so happens that New York, the biggest media market in the country, finally has a down season that year, and just so happens that New York ends up winning this fourteen percent chance, and so Patrick Ewing goes to New York, which is where David Stern, the commissioner, is from. So when this happens, there was and immediately a lot of pushback, and people were saying, how is it that Patrick Ewing ends up in New York. They've watched this televised draft lottery and they start coming up with theories. The very corner of the envelope of the Knicks when they were drawn from this quote random drawing, it's creased, so obviously David Stern knew that he was picking the Nick's envelope, or they had put the envelope in a freezer prior to putting it in this drum. So David Stern put his hand in and just reached for the frozen envelope, and thus was born a controversy, a conspiracy theory that has continued still to this day about whether or not the NBA rigged the nineteen eighty five draft lottery to ensure the best player went to the biggest media market.

We're back at the Waldorf Astoria in New York, sitting in a starlight roof, and David de Busher is here with a number one pick in the draft, and you said, you still you can he believe it.

We're back at the Waldorf Astoria in New York, sitting in a starlight roof, and David de Busher is here with a number one pick in the draft, and you said, you still you can he believe it.

It's just a wonderful thing having the number one pick.

It's just a wonderful thing having the number one pick.

And obviously I think everybody knows who are number one pick is going to be and we're very delighted.

And obviously I think everybody knows who are number one pick is going to be and we're very delighted.

I think you knew it too.

I think you knew it too.

Show the show what you got in your hand.

Show the show what you got in your hand.

He has number thirty three all printed up here ready up to this confidence for you. So you will make a.

He has number thirty three all printed up here ready up to this confidence for you. So you will make a.

Call to you, Chris.

Call to you, Chris.

Wouldn't that be bad sportsmanship? Wouldn't that be be cheating? Wouldn't that be a conspiracy? Chris?

Wouldn't that be bad sportsmanship? Wouldn't that be be cheating? Wouldn't that be a conspiracy? Chris?

Where do you come out on this?

Where do you come out on this?

I think probably going into my reporting, I leaned slightly towards they pulled this off. The league pulled it off, and they were able to get eing to New York. By the time I was done reporting and talking to people, I realized just how fly by night and a little bit haphazard this whole process was, and probably how hard it would have been for them to actually rig it. So by the end of my reporting I came down on it probably was not rigged, but I wouldn't put it past David Stern.

I think probably going into my reporting, I leaned slightly towards they pulled this off. The league pulled it off, and they were able to get eing to New York. By the time I was done reporting and talking to people, I realized just how fly by night and a little bit haphazard this whole process was, and probably how hard it would have been for them to actually rig it. So by the end of my reporting I came down on it probably was not rigged, but I wouldn't put it past David Stern.

But there's a few things that I wonder on New York wasn't the worst team, right, so they weren't in the old system, weren't going to get the top picked. But do the dates match up of when the idea for the lottery came up. Was it clear that New York would be one of those seven teams. We can talk about what happened at the actual lottery, but even the lead up to the lottery, when they decided through the lottery, with the next part of that process, how could they know where the Knicks were going to end up in because they weren't the worst team.

But there's a few things that I wonder on New York wasn't the worst team, right, so they weren't in the old system, weren't going to get the top picked. But do the dates match up of when the idea for the lottery came up. Was it clear that New York would be one of those seven teams. We can talk about what happened at the actual lottery, but even the lead up to the lottery, when they decided through the lottery, with the next part of that process, how could they know where the Knicks were going to end up in because they weren't the worst team.

So this is when David Stern proposes with his league execs this draft lottery and they choose seven teams, and it just so happens the Knicks have the seventh worst record, so they barely make this cut to be one of these seven teams. And you could say that was done intentionally. You could say seven teams is about where you should make the cutoff. But there was a direct reaction in this time to what Houston and the Los Angeles Clippers have been doing, and they had been essentially taking a race to the bottom to see who could lose more games, playing Elvin Hayes at thirty eight for fifty two minutes a game just to make sure they fell on an important contest. So that impulse was correct, and it needed to be done to ensure there was legitimacy to the League. But if that cut off of seven in the year the Knicks happened to be bad, that led people down this road.

So this is when David Stern proposes with his league execs this draft lottery and they choose seven teams, and it just so happens the Knicks have the seventh worst record, so they barely make this cut to be one of these seven teams. And you could say that was done intentionally. You could say seven teams is about where you should make the cutoff. But there was a direct reaction in this time to what Houston and the Los Angeles Clippers have been doing, and they had been essentially taking a race to the bottom to see who could lose more games, playing Elvin Hayes at thirty eight for fifty two minutes a game just to make sure they fell on an important contest. So that impulse was correct, and it needed to be done to ensure there was legitimacy to the League. But if that cut off of seven in the year the Knicks happened to be bad, that led people down this road.

Let's take a break. We'll be right back, and we're back.

Let's take a break. We'll be right back, and we're back.

So, Chris, if CIA were given the mission to do this, we would probably we'd look at it in two ways. We'd look at it like the equipment freezing the envelope, and then we look at the people who would we recruit to do that. But then how to keep it quiet, which would also be important for this, And it's basically how to keep people from blabbing afterwards and twenty years after this happens, and in CIA or the US government, we keep it quiet by threatening to throw people into prison who like talk out of school, John and I are still under an obligation not to spill certain secrets. What would be the incentive not to like, make lots of money by spilling the beans on this right? If this was to say this is how we did it twenty years later, or to million dollars for a book or a pullitzerprise for pulling this off.

So, Chris, if CIA were given the mission to do this, we would probably we'd look at it in two ways. We'd look at it like the equipment freezing the envelope, and then we look at the people who would we recruit to do that. But then how to keep it quiet, which would also be important for this, And it's basically how to keep people from blabbing afterwards and twenty years after this happens, and in CIA or the US government, we keep it quiet by threatening to throw people into prison who like talk out of school, John and I are still under an obligation not to spill certain secrets. What would be the incentive not to like, make lots of money by spilling the beans on this right? If this was to say this is how we did it twenty years later, or to million dollars for a book or a pullitzerprise for pulling this off.

Exactly, and I think that's probably the best rationale for why it wasn't rigged, because at this point David Stern missis twenty twenty four. Him Stern has passed away, and he definitely governed the league through a little bit of intimidation and fear. So you can understand to a certain extent how when he was still commissioner and even when retired, why people might have been hesitant to say a thing about it. But now you'd assume something would come out and it hasn't come out. And secondarily, you can look at the amount of people that were involved in this, from Pat O'Brien who was doing the broadcast, to the people doing the TV trucks, to everyone who helped set up the Waldorf which is where this was held. And to pull this off. It couldn't have been a one person job. Obviously, you know the counter argument to that might be, and just to engage in that, and I'll go a little bit of a tangent, but you'll see I'll.

Exactly, and I think that's probably the best rationale for why it wasn't rigged, because at this point David Stern missis twenty twenty four. Him Stern has passed away, and he definitely governed the league through a little bit of intimidation and fear. So you can understand to a certain extent how when he was still commissioner and even when retired, why people might have been hesitant to say a thing about it. But now you'd assume something would come out and it hasn't come out. And secondarily, you can look at the amount of people that were involved in this, from Pat O'Brien who was doing the broadcast, to the people doing the TV trucks, to everyone who helped set up the Waldorf which is where this was held. And to pull this off. It couldn't have been a one person job. Obviously, you know the counter argument to that might be, and just to engage in that, and I'll go a little bit of a tangent, but you'll see I'll.

Give us the Grassy Knoll version.

Give us the Grassy Knoll version.

Yes is you know, recently, as NBA fans will be aware, a year and a year and a half ago this point, during a pre season workout, Draymond Green of the Golden State Warriors got upset with Jordan Poole, who was then one of their guards, a young brash guard, and Draymond Green punches him in practice. And you know, twenty years earlier, this kind of thing was sort of the norm, not norm, but it was part of NBA culture. You know, Michael Jordan got in a fist fight in practice. These things happened. But in today's era, the Warriors tried to keep this quiet, and they succeeded in keeping it in house for a very short amount of time until someone in the best guesses it's probably someone in the video office took the feed from up in the arena which showed this happening and sold that video and then you know, probably disappeared to Brazil or wherever. But so today, no way, you know, no way you're pulling this off in such a physical fashion. But I do think that in nineteen eighty four at least, that probably wasn't what everyone was thinking about, and probably the majority of people that were just hoping the NBA would survive at this point and this would be successful and this production would work out.

Yes is you know, recently, as NBA fans will be aware, a year and a year and a half ago this point, during a pre season workout, Draymond Green of the Golden State Warriors got upset with Jordan Poole, who was then one of their guards, a young brash guard, and Draymond Green punches him in practice. And you know, twenty years earlier, this kind of thing was sort of the norm, not norm, but it was part of NBA culture. You know, Michael Jordan got in a fist fight in practice. These things happened. But in today's era, the Warriors tried to keep this quiet, and they succeeded in keeping it in house for a very short amount of time until someone in the best guesses it's probably someone in the video office took the feed from up in the arena which showed this happening and sold that video and then you know, probably disappeared to Brazil or wherever. But so today, no way, you know, no way you're pulling this off in such a physical fashion. But I do think that in nineteen eighty four at least, that probably wasn't what everyone was thinking about, and probably the majority of people that were just hoping the NBA would survive at this point and this would be successful and this production would work out.

The question is, in his remaining decades after that, is there anything else that David Stern seemed to get involved with. It would suggest that perhaps this earlier conspiracy was just part of a pattern.

The question is, in his remaining decades after that, is there anything else that David Stern seemed to get involved with. It would suggest that perhaps this earlier conspiracy was just part of a pattern.

Sure, you know, if you talk to enough people who covered the league for a long time, I mean you could say, if David Stern had gotten nailed for this, it would not be the least of but it would be one of the things he did that was more understandable. I mean, he definitely ruled with an iron fist. There are some bodies buried, so to speak, not actual ones, but you know, there's a body buried in the rise of the NBA, and he was ruthless and he wielded his power. So certainly a person who would have conceived of this not a question. And I think to a certain extent Stern enjoyed in the years after being thought to be someone who might have pulled this off, because it's furnished his legacy either way, like it worked out for them. More people watch the draft lottery every year, more people talked about the league. He created this mythology, so he sort of enjoyed going back and forth between denying it and jokingly not denying it to help keep that question alive.

Sure, you know, if you talk to enough people who covered the league for a long time, I mean you could say, if David Stern had gotten nailed for this, it would not be the least of but it would be one of the things he did that was more understandable. I mean, he definitely ruled with an iron fist. There are some bodies buried, so to speak, not actual ones, but you know, there's a body buried in the rise of the NBA, and he was ruthless and he wielded his power. So certainly a person who would have conceived of this not a question. And I think to a certain extent Stern enjoyed in the years after being thought to be someone who might have pulled this off, because it's furnished his legacy either way, like it worked out for them. More people watch the draft lottery every year, more people talked about the league. He created this mythology, so he sort of enjoyed going back and forth between denying it and jokingly not denying it to help keep that question alive.

Sports have always had conspiracies and conspiracy theories around them, often due to to betting you know in the wider world, like in nineteen sixty nine a war started between Honduras and Al Salvador, like four thousand people were killed, three hundred thousand people were made refugees over conspiracies over whether this soccer match was fixed. And maybe if I could just take you there for a second to talk about maybe baseball's biggest one arguably the nineteen nineteen Black Sox World Series issue right where Julis Joe Jackson was thrown out of baseball forever after he signed this legal confession even though he couldn't read or write. Court found an innocent and this almost blew up baseball as well.

Sports have always had conspiracies and conspiracy theories around them, often due to to betting you know in the wider world, like in nineteen sixty nine a war started between Honduras and Al Salvador, like four thousand people were killed, three hundred thousand people were made refugees over conspiracies over whether this soccer match was fixed. And maybe if I could just take you there for a second to talk about maybe baseball's biggest one arguably the nineteen nineteen Black Sox World Series issue right where Julis Joe Jackson was thrown out of baseball forever after he signed this legal confession even though he couldn't read or write. Court found an innocent and this almost blew up baseball as well.

And it's always a matter of the power level, right, So if the athlete, and it's really worked for college basketball players, if the athlete could make more money, if it was financially worthwhile for them, if they weren't going to make the NBA, there's no pot of goal professionally for them to take this side bet or to throw a game, then they'd consider it. Now, the majority of athletes would not go down that road, obviously, we hope, but enough did. And you see that in the same way that when it came the steroid era in baseball, the financial payout and staying in the league was worth it to the hundreds of players who decided to use steroids. I think why it becomes less and less prevalent now is because the amount of money that athletes in most of these sports are making, it really doesn't make sense get involved in throwing a game. But coming up and especially like in nineteen eighty four, there was a lot of a lot of impetus for someone to consider those routes, and I think in this case, the impetus was not necessarily for a individual player. It was for the league. Okay, we'll get we're gonna gamble with our reputation because our reputation already sucks, right, so we're going to gamble with it a bit here for the payout of getting you in this media market and getting people to talk about it. So anytime that gamble was worth it for an athlete, I think is when you would see the betting.

And it's always a matter of the power level, right, So if the athlete, and it's really worked for college basketball players, if the athlete could make more money, if it was financially worthwhile for them, if they weren't going to make the NBA, there's no pot of goal professionally for them to take this side bet or to throw a game, then they'd consider it. Now, the majority of athletes would not go down that road, obviously, we hope, but enough did. And you see that in the same way that when it came the steroid era in baseball, the financial payout and staying in the league was worth it to the hundreds of players who decided to use steroids. I think why it becomes less and less prevalent now is because the amount of money that athletes in most of these sports are making, it really doesn't make sense get involved in throwing a game. But coming up and especially like in nineteen eighty four, there was a lot of a lot of impetus for someone to consider those routes, and I think in this case, the impetus was not necessarily for a individual player. It was for the league. Okay, we'll get we're gonna gamble with our reputation because our reputation already sucks, right, so we're going to gamble with it a bit here for the payout of getting you in this media market and getting people to talk about it. So anytime that gamble was worth it for an athlete, I think is when you would see the betting.

Going back to the eighty five draft, let's talk a little bit about if it was a conspiracy pulling it off. And so some of the theories were, like you already mentioned the bent corner, the frozen envelope, how do those stack up?

Going back to the eighty five draft, let's talk a little bit about if it was a conspiracy pulling it off. And so some of the theories were, like you already mentioned the bent corner, the frozen envelope, how do those stack up?

The bent corner concept, which is that when David Stern is putting the envelopes, and they're these unnaturally large envelopes, and they designed them so that when you pulled out the placard in the envelope, it would have the logo of the team, so it was the Clippers or if it was the Knicks, and then you place that logo up on a shelf with the other logos and David Stern would hold it up that on a twenty inch TV of the era that the logo would pop. So that was their explanation for why they needed these oversized envelopes. But because they were oversized envelopes and not say ping pong ball, because there was this large envelope, you could in fact probably bend a corner if you wanted to. And when you watch Stern put the envelopes in and he puts in that envelope, it looks a little.

The bent corner concept, which is that when David Stern is putting the envelopes, and they're these unnaturally large envelopes, and they designed them so that when you pulled out the placard in the envelope, it would have the logo of the team, so it was the Clippers or if it was the Knicks, and then you place that logo up on a shelf with the other logos and David Stern would hold it up that on a twenty inch TV of the era that the logo would pop. So that was their explanation for why they needed these oversized envelopes. But because they were oversized envelopes and not say ping pong ball, because there was this large envelope, you could in fact probably bend a corner if you wanted to. And when you watch Stern put the envelopes in and he puts in that envelope, it looks a little.

You could read into it.

You could read into it.

It looks a little intentional that he drops it on the side of this big plastic sphere, which is what they're quote tumbling. It's really hard to tumble envelopes, but that's what they had never to do, and so he drops on the side and you see that corner bend. You can also see a film of the draft of Stern doing this. You can see that he fumbles a bit when grabbing the envelopes, so conceivably he's feeling for that bent corner.

It looks a little intentional that he drops it on the side of this big plastic sphere, which is what they're quote tumbling. It's really hard to tumble envelopes, but that's what they had never to do, and so he drops on the side and you see that corner bend. You can also see a film of the draft of Stern doing this. You can see that he fumbles a bit when grabbing the envelopes, so conceivably he's feeling for that bent corner.

Thank you.

Thank you.

The drum will now be turned to further mix the envelopes, and then I will conduct the drawing.

The drum will now be turned to further mix the envelopes, and then I will conduct the drawing.

That is Jack Joyce, he's the head of security for the NBA. Spinning the drums. There's about six turns.

That is Jack Joyce, he's the head of security for the NBA. Spinning the drums. There's about six turns.

The team whose logo is in this envelope will have the first pick in the NBA draft.

The team whose logo is in this envelope will have the first pick in the NBA draft.

So that one definitely holds water. As far as would it work, you know, the concept of the frozen envelopes, to my mind a little harder to believe because you would have had to get this thing out of the freezer theoretically get it in there, and it would have to still retain a coolness. I've never really tried freezing paper, but I can't imagine it would retain the coolness for long enough to be a fail safe way for Stern to make sure he got the right envelope.

So that one definitely holds water. As far as would it work, you know, the concept of the frozen envelopes, to my mind a little harder to believe because you would have had to get this thing out of the freezer theoretically get it in there, and it would have to still retain a coolness. I've never really tried freezing paper, but I can't imagine it would retain the coolness for long enough to be a fail safe way for Stern to make sure he got the right envelope.

But this is also being done right in front of the executives of the losing teams here too, right, So if you're going to pull us off, you can't pull it off so that the Golden State Warriors executive sitting there could say, oh my god, there's a bent corner on that envelope.

But this is also being done right in front of the executives of the losing teams here too, right, So if you're going to pull us off, you can't pull it off so that the Golden State Warriors executive sitting there could say, oh my god, there's a bent corner on that envelope.

And it's being broadcast live. There's already questions about this draft that it happens to work out that the Knicks are going to be in it, and you're going live for the first time with this new conceit, which is that you're going to show the draft process on live TV at the halftime of an existing game. So Ale Adols could have very easily thrown a fit right there on the spot on live TV. So there's a lot of variables that could have gone wrong for the NBA.

And it's being broadcast live. There's already questions about this draft that it happens to work out that the Knicks are going to be in it, and you're going live for the first time with this new conceit, which is that you're going to show the draft process on live TV at the halftime of an existing game. So Ale Adols could have very easily thrown a fit right there on the spot on live TV. So there's a lot of variables that could have gone wrong for the NBA.

I assume people have recreated this, right.

I assume people have recreated this, right.

There was a writer, Patrick Ruby into an eleven who watched this film with a professional magician and asked, and there's always no one can say for sure one way or the other, or no one has at this point, like they're bizarre enough theories that you were like, I don't know they could pull that off, But at the same time they are plausible theories to the point, you're like, I don't. I can't say they didn't pull that off. And that's what you've heard from any expert who has been consulted on this.

There was a writer, Patrick Ruby into an eleven who watched this film with a professional magician and asked, and there's always no one can say for sure one way or the other, or no one has at this point, like they're bizarre enough theories that you were like, I don't know they could pull that off, But at the same time they are plausible theories to the point, you're like, I don't. I can't say they didn't pull that off. And that's what you've heard from any expert who has been consulted on this.

And in this case, actually you could argue that the losers all benefit of the NBA, all those other teams that maybe didn't get Patrick Ewing, the NBA became this cash call for everybody. Conceivably David Start could have gone around dead, but he say, listen, this is going to benefit all of us if you just play a lot.

And in this case, actually you could argue that the losers all benefit of the NBA, all those other teams that maybe didn't get Patrick Ewing, the NBA became this cash call for everybody. Conceivably David Start could have gone around dead, but he say, listen, this is going to benefit all of us if you just play a lot.

If it happened today, there would be a different response, But in nineteen eighty five, in that era, there was You're right, the rising tide lifts all ships because of the TV contracts that came on the heels of it. The TV contracts, the international, the global work that Stern did were the values of each of these franchises, and the salaries of everyone involved on that day just exponentially grew over the next ten years. I mean, as opposed to the other great conspiracy of the NBA is that Michael Jordan was banned from the NBA and that's why he went to play baseball. And that's one where I think if you had polled most people involved in the league. They would have said that was bad for us. It was good for baseball, but it was bad for the NBA when Jordan was out of the league.

If it happened today, there would be a different response, But in nineteen eighty five, in that era, there was You're right, the rising tide lifts all ships because of the TV contracts that came on the heels of it. The TV contracts, the international, the global work that Stern did were the values of each of these franchises, and the salaries of everyone involved on that day just exponentially grew over the next ten years. I mean, as opposed to the other great conspiracy of the NBA is that Michael Jordan was banned from the NBA and that's why he went to play baseball. And that's one where I think if you had polled most people involved in the league. They would have said that was bad for us. It was good for baseball, but it was bad for the NBA when Jordan was out of the league.

Let's take a break, we'll be right back, and boom, we're back. Are there any other sports conspiracies that you're interested in or that you feel rise to the level.

Let's take a break, we'll be right back, and boom, we're back. Are there any other sports conspiracies that you're interested in or that you feel rise to the level.

There definitely remained questions about the reffing and NBA and Sports Illustrated. We had a writer who spent nine months at one point, Thomas Lake, very talented writer, looking into the Kings Lakers series, and there reffing in it. And this was the era where the Kings were ascended. This is in the early two thousands, Chris Weber, Paisiaestoyakovic, and it looked like they're on the verge of becoming a dominant team in the NBA. And there's this crazy Game seven that the Lakers with Shaquille and Eland, Kobe Bryant once again major media market eke out. And if you go back and you retroactively interviewed all these people involved in it, that one smelled bad. Weirdly enough, we never ran the story. So maybe that's another conspiracy theory right there.

There definitely remained questions about the reffing and NBA and Sports Illustrated. We had a writer who spent nine months at one point, Thomas Lake, very talented writer, looking into the Kings Lakers series, and there reffing in it. And this was the era where the Kings were ascended. This is in the early two thousands, Chris Weber, Paisiaestoyakovic, and it looked like they're on the verge of becoming a dominant team in the NBA. And there's this crazy Game seven that the Lakers with Shaquille and Eland, Kobe Bryant once again major media market eke out. And if you go back and you retroactively interviewed all these people involved in it, that one smelled bad. Weirdly enough, we never ran the story. So maybe that's another conspiracy theory right there.

One place where the world of intelligence, where intelligence and sports and conspiracies and conspiracy theories all genuinely overlap of courses in the Olympics, and was at Sochi in twenty sixteen. The Russian intelligence services were at the center of the doping scandal, and Russian intelligence services were putting their fingers on the scale to make sure that Putin won medals and cheating was massive, factory level, with secret rooms and whole teams of scientists to hide yurn and blood samples.

One place where the world of intelligence, where intelligence and sports and conspiracies and conspiracy theories all genuinely overlap of courses in the Olympics, and was at Sochi in twenty sixteen. The Russian intelligence services were at the center of the doping scandal, and Russian intelligence services were putting their fingers on the scale to make sure that Putin won medals and cheating was massive, factory level, with secret rooms and whole teams of scientists to hide yurn and blood samples.

Yeah, that's a place where there's almost you assume if you were to look at the last sixty years of Olympic sports, and especially say, for example, like the Russian team or the German team over the years, you would assist, Yes, in particular, Yeah, you would assume more often than not that there had been some mechanics at play there.

Yeah, that's a place where there's almost you assume if you were to look at the last sixty years of Olympic sports, and especially say, for example, like the Russian team or the German team over the years, you would assist, Yes, in particular, Yeah, you would assume more often than not that there had been some mechanics at play there.

I have to share a story real quick, so you know, I spent a lot of time in Germany, and when East Germany and West Germany, when they united West Germany, the United Germany took over all of East Germany's like debts and things that it had to fulfill, and it turns out one of them was the East German athletes who had been regularly beating the entire world and beating the West Germans. All their athletes, especially their women, had been like fully doped. And so these athletes who would won all their gold medals, Yeah, I know, surprise, they're now suffering from these terrible medical conditions because the East Germans forced them to dope, or they agreed to it, but they sued the West German government for medical malprek because they took over there. They took over everything that these Germans did. So the West German athletes are like a they cheated. I didn't get a medal. They did, and now now their health is all fucked up because of all the drugs, and now they're suing. I got my taxes who've got to pay for their medical care.

I have to share a story real quick, so you know, I spent a lot of time in Germany, and when East Germany and West Germany, when they united West Germany, the United Germany took over all of East Germany's like debts and things that it had to fulfill, and it turns out one of them was the East German athletes who had been regularly beating the entire world and beating the West Germans. All their athletes, especially their women, had been like fully doped. And so these athletes who would won all their gold medals, Yeah, I know, surprise, they're now suffering from these terrible medical conditions because the East Germans forced them to dope, or they agreed to it, but they sued the West German government for medical malprek because they took over there. They took over everything that these Germans did. So the West German athletes are like a they cheated. I didn't get a medal. They did, and now now their health is all fucked up because of all the drugs, and now they're suing. I got my taxes who've got to pay for their medical care.

That's not okay.

That's not okay.

I didn't see the movie with Matt Damon and Victus about South Africa re entering the world of rugby after apartheip was coming down, but there was an interesting story that came out afterwards of a conspiracy. Theory is that the New Zealanders who lost to the South Africans, who were the great favorites, the night before the game, they all came down with diarrhea. They all come down with they all got sick, and there was this mysterious waitress who served them the food, called Susie, and they never saw her again and she could never be found. Although the New Zealand team swears they all know who she is and they could identify her. The South Africans couldn't produce her. And later this guy Stein, one of Nelson and Dala's bodyguards, came out and said it was the South African Intelligence Service. They needed South Africa to have a good feeling, They needed it to win. They wanted to keep civil war at bay in South Africa because apart I hadn't quite come down yet and they needed this win.

I didn't see the movie with Matt Damon and Victus about South Africa re entering the world of rugby after apartheip was coming down, but there was an interesting story that came out afterwards of a conspiracy. Theory is that the New Zealanders who lost to the South Africans, who were the great favorites, the night before the game, they all came down with diarrhea. They all come down with they all got sick, and there was this mysterious waitress who served them the food, called Susie, and they never saw her again and she could never be found. Although the New Zealand team swears they all know who she is and they could identify her. The South Africans couldn't produce her. And later this guy Stein, one of Nelson and Dala's bodyguards, came out and said it was the South African Intelligence Service. They needed South Africa to have a good feeling, They needed it to win. They wanted to keep civil war at bay in South Africa because apart I hadn't quite come down yet and they needed this win.

I can remember years ago when they thought was that they not poisoned, but it had given Michael Jordan bad food or something before one of the playoff games.

I can remember years ago when they thought was that they not poisoned, but it had given Michael Jordan bad food or something before one of the playoff games.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and maybe every player should have a taster.

Yeah, and maybe every player should have a taster.

Now, Chris is a fascinating story. What is it your book that you're writing now about That.

Now, Chris is a fascinating story. What is it your book that you're writing now about That.

One's totally different. That's sports and jacent I would say it's the concept of ice swimming and how it has this roots back in Europe, going back four hundred five hundred years, and then how it's now being looked at as a way of cold exposure. So there's a whole science to a science and history, and I'm doing a narrative exploration of it.

One's totally different. That's sports and jacent I would say it's the concept of ice swimming and how it has this roots back in Europe, going back four hundred five hundred years, and then how it's now being looked at as a way of cold exposure. So there's a whole science to a science and history, and I'm doing a narrative exploration of it.

My first overseas assignment was to Finland, and I lived right on the Baltic and I lived right next to the Finish Sauna Society, And they in the Baltic under the water had this little bubble machine that would continue all year long, so it would create this big hole in the ice over the winter, and the ice could get is eight to ten feet or more thick, and you'd go swim in there after you took a sauna and swim into the ice and stuff. The fact that sauna was so central a part of the culture in a place like Finland, and the fact that everybody goes in there naked, it was a great opportunity to steal stuff from people's wallets and clothes and car keys and other things while you were in the sauna, or at least copy them so that you could use them later to perhaps break into their place and steal secrets.

My first overseas assignment was to Finland, and I lived right on the Baltic and I lived right next to the Finish Sauna Society, And they in the Baltic under the water had this little bubble machine that would continue all year long, so it would create this big hole in the ice over the winter, and the ice could get is eight to ten feet or more thick, and you'd go swim in there after you took a sauna and swim into the ice and stuff. The fact that sauna was so central a part of the culture in a place like Finland, and the fact that everybody goes in there naked, it was a great opportunity to steal stuff from people's wallets and clothes and car keys and other things while you were in the sauna, or at least copy them so that you could use them later to perhaps break into their place and steal secrets.

Wow, I'm going to be more careful when I go to the beach.

Wow, I'm going to be more careful when I go to the beach.

There you go. As long as you're not a KGB spy, it doesn't matter.

There you go. As long as you're not a KGB spy, it doesn't matter.

Well, Chris, this is really great. Thank you for talking to us. Fascinating stuff and I really enjoyed your story.

Well, Chris, this is really great. Thank you for talking to us. Fascinating stuff and I really enjoyed your story.

Yeah, yeah, no problem. Good luck with the podcast.

Yeah, yeah, no problem. Good luck with the podcast.

So now that we've had someone who really knows what they're talking about, let's switch to the other side and bring in John and Adam.

So now that we've had someone who really knows what they're talking about, let's switch to the other side and bring in John and Adam.

Hey, guys, I don't.

Hey, guys, I don't.

Know a lot about sports, but I do know about scientific experiments, because what I did was I tested the theory that you could freeze an envelope and then feel the temperature differential. So I froze a bunch of different envelopes for different periods of times, brought them out, did a blind field test between them and one that hasn't been frozen, and after about fifteen seconds, they all felt the same. So I frozen for longer. Same thing. My son said, try spraying them with water and the water will hold the temperature longer, and he was right for about thirty seconds. If you really wanted to make it noticeable, I think you'd have to do something physical to it. Different texture, different shape than in the corner. Significantly. I know all of these were discussed, so I tested these as well, and it is really hard to tell the difference. I think the way to do it would be to have a different texture of paper. But this all goes back to, well, how many people have to be involved in this. You don't just get to go in yourself and replace the envelope, but you have to feel up the different envelopes, right, you got to feel this one.

Know a lot about sports, but I do know about scientific experiments, because what I did was I tested the theory that you could freeze an envelope and then feel the temperature differential. So I froze a bunch of different envelopes for different periods of times, brought them out, did a blind field test between them and one that hasn't been frozen, and after about fifteen seconds, they all felt the same. So I frozen for longer. Same thing. My son said, try spraying them with water and the water will hold the temperature longer, and he was right for about thirty seconds. If you really wanted to make it noticeable, I think you'd have to do something physical to it. Different texture, different shape than in the corner. Significantly. I know all of these were discussed, so I tested these as well, and it is really hard to tell the difference. I think the way to do it would be to have a different texture of paper. But this all goes back to, well, how many people have to be involved in this. You don't just get to go in yourself and replace the envelope, but you have to feel up the different envelopes, right, you got to feel this one.

Oh, that's not it. And then he's got to know did they show him?

Oh, that's not it. And then he's got to know did they show him?

Like, yeah, you can see him what he does, and I don't see that there's.

Like, yeah, you can see him what he does, and I don't see that there's.

Any It's all how you see it.

Any It's all how you see it.

Some people say they see that video and it looks like he's feeling around.

Some people say they see that video and it looks like he's feeling around.

If you guys got the technical branch of the CIA, couldn't you could solve this?

If you guys got the technical branch of the CIA, couldn't you could solve this?

Right?

Right?

Yes, yeah we could have.

Yes, yeah we could have.

Usually the first thing to do is to think there's probably an easier way around all this. Professionals who do this type of thing could probably come up with a way to do it. But again, you're talking about stuff that you have to bring in.

Usually the first thing to do is to think there's probably an easier way around all this. Professionals who do this type of thing could probably come up with a way to do it. But again, you're talking about stuff that you have to bring in.

You know, there are ways of palming things and having it up your sleeve, pulling rabbits out of hats and shit like that, but that's not saying that like any schmoke can just like quick go do it. Penn and Teller could pull it off.

You know, there are ways of palming things and having it up your sleeve, pulling rabbits out of hats and shit like that, but that's not saying that like any schmoke can just like quick go do it. Penn and Teller could pull it off.

When I think about the is it called the technical branch.

When I think about the is it called the technical branch.

What's it called technical services?

What's it called technical services?

Office of technical Did you have cool things that they like? Weird problems that they solved?

Office of technical Did you have cool things that they like? Weird problems that they solved?

Yeah? Tell me what first?

Yeah? Tell me what first?

In the whole disguise thing, they had actually people who had worked in Hollywood and had done masks and done things for Hollywood. There's all kinds of technical gear that we could use. In fact, I remember when I was in Moscow and we were under surveillance all the time, we actually did hire a magician to try to work with us, to think about sleight of hand as we being watched, trying to get away with things and that type of thing. So it's an ongoing process and it's part of understanding what you're up against and how you can defeat it, either technically or visually or what have you?

In the whole disguise thing, they had actually people who had worked in Hollywood and had done masks and done things for Hollywood. There's all kinds of technical gear that we could use. In fact, I remember when I was in Moscow and we were under surveillance all the time, we actually did hire a magician to try to work with us, to think about sleight of hand as we being watched, trying to get away with things and that type of thing. So it's an ongoing process and it's part of understanding what you're up against and how you can defeat it, either technically or visually or what have you?

Did?

Did?

It was it kind of Willy Wonka ish like fun to go down there? Or is just an office with a bunch of it?

It was it kind of Willy Wonka ish like fun to go down there? Or is just an office with a bunch of it?

Was fun? I remember when I got did you ever go do the fancy disguise stuff done?

Was fun? I remember when I got did you ever go do the fancy disguise stuff done?

Yeah? I did, and I did the ots thing, like, we have places abroad where we do them, and I visited some of those and they've got like carpentry and working on cars, and yeah, disguises and yeah they do some pretty but most of them are pretty straightforward, like how to hide something or how to trick something out. It's not Penn and Teller stuff. We're not hiding tigers or anything like that.

Yeah? I did, and I did the ots thing, like, we have places abroad where we do them, and I visited some of those and they've got like carpentry and working on cars, and yeah, disguises and yeah they do some pretty but most of them are pretty straightforward, like how to hide something or how to trick something out. It's not Penn and Teller stuff. We're not hiding tigers or anything like that.

You've never hired.

You've never hired.

But if we had hired a tiger, tiger, you tie the fuck out of it.

But if we had hired a tiger, tiger, you tie the fuck out of it.

Although you never know what that tiger's going off turn on you either.

Although you never know what that tiger's going off turn on you either.

But yeah, so I will say, like, hearing about this whole case, it does make me think of a point that some economists made to me once, which is the general assumption should be if there is money to be made by breaking the rules, they will be broken to the extent that they can be broken. Like that, you should just assume that if there's an incentive, people are going to work to break it.

But yeah, so I will say, like, hearing about this whole case, it does make me think of a point that some economists made to me once, which is the general assumption should be if there is money to be made by breaking the rules, they will be broken to the extent that they can be broken. Like that, you should just assume that if there's an incentive, people are going to work to break it.

All right, next time, let's talk about stuff that you guys do know about. Residan sports. I think you made a You guys tried really hard, and I'm impressed by that.

All right, next time, let's talk about stuff that you guys do know about. Residan sports. I think you made a You guys tried really hard, and I'm impressed by that.

I have been to more sports events I've watched more sports in the last like fourteen months than in my entire life, and I'm enjoying the time with my kid. We'll see you next time.

I have been to more sports events I've watched more sports in the last like fourteen months than in my entire life, and I'm enjoying the time with my kid. We'll see you next time.

Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'Shea, John Seipher, and Jonathan Sterner.

Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'Shea, John Seipher, and Jonathan Sterner.

The associate producer is Rachel Harner.

The associate producer is Rachel Harner.

Mission Implausible is a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures for iHeart Podcasts.

Mission Implausible is a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures for iHeart Podcasts.