You remember when Trump came in and he thought the generals in the Pentagon were making millions of dollars. They told him like, they make one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year, and He's like, what, why would he do that?

You remember when Trump came in and he thought the generals in the Pentagon were making millions of dollars. They told him like, they make one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year, and He's like, what, why would he do that?

I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea.

I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea.

I served in the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, living undercover all around the.

I served in the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, living undercover all around the.

World, and in my thirty three years with the CIA, I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East.

World, and in my thirty three years with the CIA, I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East.

Although we don't usually look at it this way, we created conspiracies.

Although we don't usually look at it this way, we created conspiracies.

In our operations. We got people to believe things that weren't true.

In our operations. We got people to believe things that weren't true.

Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the news almost every day.

Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the news almost every day.

Will break them down for you to determine whether they could be real or whether we're being manipulated.

Will break them down for you to determine whether they could be real or whether we're being manipulated.

Welcome to Mission Implausible, Adam.

Welcome to Mission Implausible, Adam.

There's a lot of discussion about the deep state and what it is and so forth. Why don't you now that you know John and I, why don't you tell us just how impressed you are with the deep state and you know who were in it?

There's a lot of discussion about the deep state and what it is and so forth. Why don't you now that you know John and I, why don't you tell us just how impressed you are with the deep state and you know who were in it?

Sure?

Sure?

I mean, I've gotten to know two guys in particular. I mean, here's how it works. You have a sort of questionable background, You're somehow attracted to this large bureaucracy, and apparently if you stick around long enough, you keep getting promotions, and if anyone's like, well, did you accomplish anything, you get to say, oh, yes, but it's top secret. I can't really tell you the specific things I accomplished. So that's my impression of the deep state.

I mean, I've gotten to know two guys in particular. I mean, here's how it works. You have a sort of questionable background, You're somehow attracted to this large bureaucracy, and apparently if you stick around long enough, you keep getting promotions, and if anyone's like, well, did you accomplish anything, you get to say, oh, yes, but it's top secret. I can't really tell you the specific things I accomplished. So that's my impression of the deep state.

Dude, you nailed it.

Dude, you nailed it.

I can't argue with You're there pretty accurate.

I can't argue with You're there pretty accurate.

The deep state. It is sort of weird though, because on the one hand people would portray us as incompetent bureaucradits and on the other were like capable of anything. Which is it?

The deep state. It is sort of weird though, because on the one hand people would portray us as incompetent bureaucradits and on the other were like capable of anything. Which is it?

I'll just say I think a lot of it came because people who don't have an experience in government or in their security. Things came in and then they just wondered when they would say things at a whim, whether they made sense or not, didn't just happen. And so they said to themselves, well, there must be people there that are purposely trying to stall and stop the thing that I'm saying should happen. Now, there is a large group of professionals in Washington who have laws and regulations and policies that have been built up over years, and so it isn't possible when someone just says do this for it to happen until it's gone through lawyers and just make sure it's legal and make sure you know everybody has input into whether it makes sense, because different organizations and different partner people in the political process have different opinions on things.

I'll just say I think a lot of it came because people who don't have an experience in government or in their security. Things came in and then they just wondered when they would say things at a whim, whether they made sense or not, didn't just happen. And so they said to themselves, well, there must be people there that are purposely trying to stall and stop the thing that I'm saying should happen. Now, there is a large group of professionals in Washington who have laws and regulations and policies that have been built up over years, and so it isn't possible when someone just says do this for it to happen until it's gone through lawyers and just make sure it's legal and make sure you know everybody has input into whether it makes sense, because different organizations and different partner people in the political process have different opinions on things.

Teach state people are people who follow the rules and know what the rules are. And the rules were given to us by Congress, right, and they're complicate called laws. Laws. Yeah, so we follow the laws and then we're damned because we can't ignore the laws.

Teach state people are people who follow the rules and know what the rules are. And the rules were given to us by Congress, right, and they're complicate called laws. Laws. Yeah, so we follow the laws and then we're damned because we can't ignore the laws.

If there's a sort of term like bureaucrat or deep state, or jew or financial elite or whatever it is, a lot of these are predicated on the idea that they're all thinking the exact same thing. They're all aligned and unified, and they're goals and be there like actively working together. And if you happen to be a member, like I'm a member of the Jews, I'm a member of the media elite. I think I'm now officially a member of the intelligence community, right because I have a podcasts with you guys, you realize really quickly, like the two of you don't agree on a lot of stuff. The idea of there being this not even the same title, but sort of this a similar kind of title we must all be working together is I mean it just as absurd. I mean that seems to be the cornerstone of a lot of conspiracy.

If there's a sort of term like bureaucrat or deep state, or jew or financial elite or whatever it is, a lot of these are predicated on the idea that they're all thinking the exact same thing. They're all aligned and unified, and they're goals and be there like actively working together. And if you happen to be a member, like I'm a member of the Jews, I'm a member of the media elite. I think I'm now officially a member of the intelligence community, right because I have a podcasts with you guys, you realize really quickly, like the two of you don't agree on a lot of stuff. The idea of there being this not even the same title, but sort of this a similar kind of title we must all be working together is I mean it just as absurd. I mean that seems to be the cornerstone of a lot of conspiracy.

There's sort of assumption, like, you know, if you're a Republican president and you want certain policies that miss mean the whole deep Stater is all Democrats right and want of democrats in they must be all Whereas essentially there's Democrats and Republicans inside all of this deep state. So the notion that somehow we would all agree on whatever this political thing is. The thing we agree on is on the mission of our organization. Our mission of organization was, you know, to keep Americans safe, but we didn't agree on the policy of how to do that.

There's sort of assumption, like, you know, if you're a Republican president and you want certain policies that miss mean the whole deep Stater is all Democrats right and want of democrats in they must be all Whereas essentially there's Democrats and Republicans inside all of this deep state. So the notion that somehow we would all agree on whatever this political thing is. The thing we agree on is on the mission of our organization. Our mission of organization was, you know, to keep Americans safe, but we didn't agree on the policy of how to do that.

From things you've told me, it CIA seems filled with a lot of different pretty left wing people, right wing people, pretty centrist people, pretty a political people right.

From things you've told me, it CIA seems filled with a lot of different pretty left wing people, right wing people, pretty centrist people, pretty a political people right.

And today we're going to be taking a look at conspiracy theories around what some people term is the deep state and how conspiracies around that have become part and parcel of our political culture and central to it.

And today we're going to be taking a look at conspiracy theories around what some people term is the deep state and how conspiracies around that have become part and parcel of our political culture and central to it.

Our guest is Mark Zaid, a well known lawyer in Washington. He's an attorney. He's focused on national security issues. He deals with law, whistleblowers, freedom of speech issues, and he has some connections to Jerry and I. He went to the University of Rochester and Jerry's a Rochester native. So Mark, it's really great to have you here. Thanks for being with us.

Our guest is Mark Zaid, a well known lawyer in Washington. He's an attorney. He's focused on national security issues. He deals with law, whistleblowers, freedom of speech issues, and he has some connections to Jerry and I. He went to the University of Rochester and Jerry's a Rochester native. So Mark, it's really great to have you here. Thanks for being with us.

Oh, it is a pleasure to be with both of you guys.

Oh, it is a pleasure to be with both of you guys.

So let me ask the first question. At least these days and some of the things that I see you getting involved with. You're a lawyer, You're preparing cases, you might even have to go to court, and in being a lawyer is about, you know, following the facts where they may lead. But so much of what we're seeing nowadays is politicians sort of spewing and things that just don't have any relation to reality. And how do you square those things? How do you defend people when the chargers are just sort of crazy?

So let me ask the first question. At least these days and some of the things that I see you getting involved with. You're a lawyer, You're preparing cases, you might even have to go to court, and in being a lawyer is about, you know, following the facts where they may lead. But so much of what we're seeing nowadays is politicians sort of spewing and things that just don't have any relation to reality. And how do you square those things? How do you defend people when the chargers are just sort of crazy?

Yeah, it is always difficult in that sphere, and anyone who has spent a good amount of time in DC will tell you how things have changed. I've been here now for thirty years, and it is a very different world in DC in politics than it has ever been before, which has fed a lot of the conspiracy theories. Now some of it is because of ideology and jerry mandering. There's a lot more divisiveness in the country in the political parties because so many seats in politics are safe, which has led politicians to be more extreme because they get elected. Now that is really fundamentally important because you talk to the sort of old timers who were in office, and Democrats and Republican members of Congress used to share apartments together because it was expensive to have residents here in DC. It was also harder to go back home, more expensive to go back home out of the area, and you didn't have communication capabilities the way we do now. So the Internet and the minimization of transportation costs also has actually fed into these problems that we have today.

Yeah, it is always difficult in that sphere, and anyone who has spent a good amount of time in DC will tell you how things have changed. I've been here now for thirty years, and it is a very different world in DC in politics than it has ever been before, which has fed a lot of the conspiracy theories. Now some of it is because of ideology and jerry mandering. There's a lot more divisiveness in the country in the political parties because so many seats in politics are safe, which has led politicians to be more extreme because they get elected. Now that is really fundamentally important because you talk to the sort of old timers who were in office, and Democrats and Republican members of Congress used to share apartments together because it was expensive to have residents here in DC. It was also harder to go back home, more expensive to go back home out of the area, and you didn't have communication capabilities the way we do now. So the Internet and the minimization of transportation costs also has actually fed into these problems that we have today.

I want to come back to you being an insider.

I want to come back to you being an insider.

Yeah, So the first thing I have to smirk it what every time I'm called an insider, and in some ways i am, But I have never served in the federal government at all, and I have always represented individuals I'll say, against the US government, you know, representing folks like you guys when you're inside the agency and you've got a security clearance issue, a personnel dispute, an IG complaint, you're being investigated by security, whatever it might be. Conspiracy theories actually got me into the world that I work in today, But it was particularly the Kennedy assassination that brought me and interested me in dealing with the CIA and accountability. But because I've represented so many people, one hundreds thousands over the thirty years, yeah, I guess I'm part of the deep state, as President Trump would call it, well, even though that's what I fight against every day, and I'd say he's more of the deep state than what he says.

Yeah, So the first thing I have to smirk it what every time I'm called an insider, and in some ways i am, But I have never served in the federal government at all, and I have always represented individuals I'll say, against the US government, you know, representing folks like you guys when you're inside the agency and you've got a security clearance issue, a personnel dispute, an IG complaint, you're being investigated by security, whatever it might be. Conspiracy theories actually got me into the world that I work in today, But it was particularly the Kennedy assassination that brought me and interested me in dealing with the CIA and accountability. But because I've represented so many people, one hundreds thousands over the thirty years, yeah, I guess I'm part of the deep state, as President Trump would call it, well, even though that's what I fight against every day, and I'd say he's more of the deep state than what he says.

The question is often cult or conspiracy. Is this like they're in a cult and this is now what they believe or is it a conspiracy and like they know it's not true.

The question is often cult or conspiracy. Is this like they're in a cult and this is now what they believe or is it a conspiracy and like they know it's not true.

It is a fair question, you pose. There's no doubt that there are some who completely know they're spewing crap and what they're saying is absolutely false, and they're just doing it for whatever reason to get a rise out of someone to fuel fundraising, to gain strength in powers and number, whatever it might be. And then there are the others, which are probably frankly the majority, generalizing, ignorant, naive, and fall in line with what they believe. When I was a freshman in college, I took a course on the Holocaust. Their maternal grandfather was a rabbi for the US Army liberated Dacau. We had to do a paper and the paper was why Germany And thirty five years ago I had a lot of trouble understanding how this unbelievable, intellectual, cultural, westernized country, pinnacle of the pinnacle of Europe became what Hitler turned it into. And obviously it's an extreme that we thankfully don't have here. But you look at the early days of national socialism in the late nineteen twenties, in the early thirties, and I think we have I do at least a much better sense of how Germany became what it became in watching how Maga and the ultimate Trump supporters have become what they are. You know, hey, Jewish space lacers. You know Marjorie Taylor Green where she Trump's vice president. Would I have a concern for my well being as a Jew, as a lawyer, as an opponent to their beliefs.

It is a fair question, you pose. There's no doubt that there are some who completely know they're spewing crap and what they're saying is absolutely false, and they're just doing it for whatever reason to get a rise out of someone to fuel fundraising, to gain strength in powers and number, whatever it might be. And then there are the others, which are probably frankly the majority, generalizing, ignorant, naive, and fall in line with what they believe. When I was a freshman in college, I took a course on the Holocaust. Their maternal grandfather was a rabbi for the US Army liberated Dacau. We had to do a paper and the paper was why Germany And thirty five years ago I had a lot of trouble understanding how this unbelievable, intellectual, cultural, westernized country, pinnacle of the pinnacle of Europe became what Hitler turned it into. And obviously it's an extreme that we thankfully don't have here. But you look at the early days of national socialism in the late nineteen twenties, in the early thirties, and I think we have I do at least a much better sense of how Germany became what it became in watching how Maga and the ultimate Trump supporters have become what they are. You know, hey, Jewish space lacers. You know Marjorie Taylor Green where she Trump's vice president. Would I have a concern for my well being as a Jew, as a lawyer, as an opponent to their beliefs.

Oh, hell yeah, let's take a break.

Oh, hell yeah, let's take a break.

We'll be right back.

We'll be right back.

And Rebecca, So, I want.

And Rebecca, So, I want.

To talk a little bit about one of the conspiracies that seems to be bandied about around a lot nowadays is about the deep state. And so I know you've defended whistleblowers for years. Are these people insiders that are telling us things that we should be worried about with our national security the agencies?

To talk a little bit about one of the conspiracies that seems to be bandied about around a lot nowadays is about the deep state. And so I know you've defended whistleblowers for years. Are these people insiders that are telling us things that we should be worried about with our national security the agencies?

So my understanding of what deep states somebody had said that term to me fifteen years ago. You know, you got to be careful about the deep state. You know, that brings to my mind Eisenhower's statement at the end of his tenure about the military industrial complex taking over the US government, or thinking about the Gestapo in Nazi Germany, who are sort of the secret government doing what they want without any regard to to the rule of law or the policies and procedures that were in play at the time. And somehow that term deep state has been twisted by former President Trump and his supporters to mean essentially anyone who challenges their authority, even lawfully. You know, the whole notion of representing whistleblowers and the existence of them. It is still looked at as a somewhat bad word and it is not anything I would ever wish upon someone to be a whistleblower. It is not a fun thing. You do not generally gain any rewards from it. There are certain types of cases where you can make a lot of money as being a whistleblower, but those are called keytam cases, and those are generally basically revealing fraud upon the US government by a contractor. That entity is fined and the whistleblower gets a percentage of that fine, which could be tens of millions of dollars. But it's been twisted now of course, the fake whistleblower. And again because I don't want to just beat up on President Trump, although there's so much to beat up on. It's both sides.

So my understanding of what deep states somebody had said that term to me fifteen years ago. You know, you got to be careful about the deep state. You know, that brings to my mind Eisenhower's statement at the end of his tenure about the military industrial complex taking over the US government, or thinking about the Gestapo in Nazi Germany, who are sort of the secret government doing what they want without any regard to to the rule of law or the policies and procedures that were in play at the time. And somehow that term deep state has been twisted by former President Trump and his supporters to mean essentially anyone who challenges their authority, even lawfully. You know, the whole notion of representing whistleblowers and the existence of them. It is still looked at as a somewhat bad word and it is not anything I would ever wish upon someone to be a whistleblower. It is not a fun thing. You do not generally gain any rewards from it. There are certain types of cases where you can make a lot of money as being a whistleblower, but those are called keytam cases, and those are generally basically revealing fraud upon the US government by a contractor. That entity is fined and the whistleblower gets a percentage of that fine, which could be tens of millions of dollars. But it's been twisted now of course, the fake whistleblower. And again because I don't want to just beat up on President Trump, although there's so much to beat up on. It's both sides.

The term deep state for me, I struggle with it strikes me as a meaningless, chivalous that lends itself to conspiracy theories. The deep state is made up of like tens of thousands of people who will mostly live in Northern Virginia, who are your neighbors who have struggled with mortgages and with their kids and have rules and regulations, and they're not some coherent group that like secretly rules things. And so when that term is used, it's like the Illuminati. It means everything and nothing. And let me ask you to come in on one just instance in how this would actually could work in the real world, which I don't think it does. So President Trump a while ago retweeted that bin Laden was still alive and that President Obama had murdered her assas needed all the people who would supposedly claim to have killed him on Sealed Team six. In the world that we live in, there would have to be a deep state that would I mean, think about this. There's the widows who would all have to be quiet. The people who carried this out would all have to be like incredibly loyal after all these years still to Obama, and where's Osama bin Lad and if he still kept living? And yet an idea like this can be put out and explained with two words deep state. How would you define deep state? And how do you see it defined?

The term deep state for me, I struggle with it strikes me as a meaningless, chivalous that lends itself to conspiracy theories. The deep state is made up of like tens of thousands of people who will mostly live in Northern Virginia, who are your neighbors who have struggled with mortgages and with their kids and have rules and regulations, and they're not some coherent group that like secretly rules things. And so when that term is used, it's like the Illuminati. It means everything and nothing. And let me ask you to come in on one just instance in how this would actually could work in the real world, which I don't think it does. So President Trump a while ago retweeted that bin Laden was still alive and that President Obama had murdered her assas needed all the people who would supposedly claim to have killed him on Sealed Team six. In the world that we live in, there would have to be a deep state that would I mean, think about this. There's the widows who would all have to be quiet. The people who carried this out would all have to be like incredibly loyal after all these years still to Obama, and where's Osama bin Lad and if he still kept living? And yet an idea like this can be put out and explained with two words deep state. How would you define deep state? And how do you see it defined?

Yeah, So, when I first came to d C, I spent then and I still do now a lot of time on the Kennedy assassination. I was a sort of up and coming youngster as a twenty five year old inheriting the mantle from the first generation who were alive when Kennedy was killed, and I realized as a result of all that there is no way that so many of the conspiracy theories that people believe could be true, because there's no way the CIA and some of the other agencies could have pulled it off. And if they could have pulled it off, there's no way in hell they could have kept it secret for so many years. The system just doesn't work that way. Are there really really cool secrets that are still secret? Yeah? You know, the three of us know that is absolutely true. We may know the same cool ones, but for the most part, it's very seldom that something so momentous has so few people that every one of them could keep something secret. One of my favorite conspiracy theories has always been the Lockness Monster, so much so that when I lived in England in the late eighties working for the British government, I went up to Lockness in Inverness, Scotland and spent hours walking around the lock just looking for NeSSI you know, turned out to be if you believe that, you know decades later where these guys came forward and said that they concocted the whole thing. They made this like paper mache dinosaur and took photos of it. And then there was another guy. He had a hippopotamus leg, real hippopoonymous leg umbrella stand that he would take and walk around the lock and put footprint in the sand that people would see. Those were theories or conspiracies that were created by a small number of people, one to three people, and usually within the same family, so that they could keep those secrets until someone's on their deathbed and set finally says what happened the stuff that we're talking about with the deep state, as you described this vast military industrial complex where everybody's involved. It's not the way our government works. Our government is so bureaucratic. The government is like an ocean liner or a freight train. It takes a mile to stop. People think the federal government is like this one monolithic entity, whereas you could have a war between one agency versus the other agency. They're not working together at all. I was them with one case, a very senior Department of Defense official within the IC agencies, all sorts of wrongdoing, all sorts of personality problems, that people didn't like this person, and there was an IG report that even found a whole bunch of stuff. So what was done. The person's not fired, they were just moved to another position.

Yeah, So, when I first came to d C, I spent then and I still do now a lot of time on the Kennedy assassination. I was a sort of up and coming youngster as a twenty five year old inheriting the mantle from the first generation who were alive when Kennedy was killed, and I realized as a result of all that there is no way that so many of the conspiracy theories that people believe could be true, because there's no way the CIA and some of the other agencies could have pulled it off. And if they could have pulled it off, there's no way in hell they could have kept it secret for so many years. The system just doesn't work that way. Are there really really cool secrets that are still secret? Yeah? You know, the three of us know that is absolutely true. We may know the same cool ones, but for the most part, it's very seldom that something so momentous has so few people that every one of them could keep something secret. One of my favorite conspiracy theories has always been the Lockness Monster, so much so that when I lived in England in the late eighties working for the British government, I went up to Lockness in Inverness, Scotland and spent hours walking around the lock just looking for NeSSI you know, turned out to be if you believe that, you know decades later where these guys came forward and said that they concocted the whole thing. They made this like paper mache dinosaur and took photos of it. And then there was another guy. He had a hippopotamus leg, real hippopoonymous leg umbrella stand that he would take and walk around the lock and put footprint in the sand that people would see. Those were theories or conspiracies that were created by a small number of people, one to three people, and usually within the same family, so that they could keep those secrets until someone's on their deathbed and set finally says what happened the stuff that we're talking about with the deep state, as you described this vast military industrial complex where everybody's involved. It's not the way our government works. Our government is so bureaucratic. The government is like an ocean liner or a freight train. It takes a mile to stop. People think the federal government is like this one monolithic entity, whereas you could have a war between one agency versus the other agency. They're not working together at all. I was them with one case, a very senior Department of Defense official within the IC agencies, all sorts of wrongdoing, all sorts of personality problems, that people didn't like this person, and there was an IG report that even found a whole bunch of stuff. So what was done. The person's not fired, they were just moved to another position.

We'd call that passing the trash.

We'd call that passing the trash.

It's really hard to fire someone.

It's really hard to fire someone.

I have a lot of clients who might disagree with that because they got fired.

I have a lot of clients who might disagree with that because they got fired.

But yeah, rule you know, we could talk about someone. I've tried to get some of those people fired.

But yeah, rule you know, we could talk about someone. I've tried to get some of those people fired.

Hey, sometimes I got to tell you. Sometimes I agree that that my clients should be I will do my best not to have them fired. But I'm behind the scenes going, oh man, I can't I get even hired in the first place.

Hey, sometimes I got to tell you. Sometimes I agree that that my clients should be I will do my best not to have them fired. But I'm behind the scenes going, oh man, I can't I get even hired in the first place.

I just went you up in and ask for some free legal advice. So what is a conspiracy legally? If what you've outlined, If someone knows something is false, a group of people know it's false, and yet they put it out there to trick other people to make money, is that a conspiracy legally?

I just went you up in and ask for some free legal advice. So what is a conspiracy legally? If what you've outlined, If someone knows something is false, a group of people know it's false, and yet they put it out there to trick other people to make money, is that a conspiracy legally?

So, a conspiracy is generally two or more people who conspire to engage in an overt conduct. Give an example, and this is what's frustrating too, the recent Georgia indictment which has rico charges. You know, it was written to go after organized crime predominantly, and the notion is you can have individuals engaged in lawful conduct, but it's part of an unlawful conspiracy. And there are a lot of the paragraphs set forth in this complaint of which the conduct is completely lawful, protected by First Amendment, but it was in furtherance of an unlawful conspiracy. And you can see you just look at Twitter or you look at any right wing media will they'll seize upon the lawful conduct in the one paragraph to say, oh, now the Democrats are criminalizing the First Amendment. And no it's not. This is an established legal precedent to take lawful conduct, but to carve it into in furtherance of an unlawful conspiracy. So if you think of money laundering, I just finished watching Breaking Bad. But you know the notion of you earn all this money by cooking meth that's illegal. You take the unlawful money, and you lawfully purchase a car wash that's lawful. Running the car wash completely lawful. When the government finds out that you earned that money from a criminal enterprise. They can seize the lawful car wash because the lawful transaction relates to the unlawful conspiracy.

So, a conspiracy is generally two or more people who conspire to engage in an overt conduct. Give an example, and this is what's frustrating too, the recent Georgia indictment which has rico charges. You know, it was written to go after organized crime predominantly, and the notion is you can have individuals engaged in lawful conduct, but it's part of an unlawful conspiracy. And there are a lot of the paragraphs set forth in this complaint of which the conduct is completely lawful, protected by First Amendment, but it was in furtherance of an unlawful conspiracy. And you can see you just look at Twitter or you look at any right wing media will they'll seize upon the lawful conduct in the one paragraph to say, oh, now the Democrats are criminalizing the First Amendment. And no it's not. This is an established legal precedent to take lawful conduct, but to carve it into in furtherance of an unlawful conspiracy. So if you think of money laundering, I just finished watching Breaking Bad. But you know the notion of you earn all this money by cooking meth that's illegal. You take the unlawful money, and you lawfully purchase a car wash that's lawful. Running the car wash completely lawful. When the government finds out that you earned that money from a criminal enterprise. They can seize the lawful car wash because the lawful transaction relates to the unlawful conspiracy.

Thanks Mark, it's always great talking to a fellow upstate New Yorker and wishing you good things in future endeavors. Now we'd like to welcome back Adam Davidson.

Thanks Mark, it's always great talking to a fellow upstate New Yorker and wishing you good things in future endeavors. Now we'd like to welcome back Adam Davidson.

Can't keep me away. But first we'll take a quick break and then I'm going to have a bunch of questions. Welcome back to Mission implausible. So John and Jerry, we just learned all about the deep state. I mean, you are exactly the deep state, and.

Can't keep me away. But first we'll take a quick break and then I'm going to have a bunch of questions. Welcome back to Mission implausible. So John and Jerry, we just learned all about the deep state. I mean, you are exactly the deep state, and.

It has a great dental plan. I want to get that out there.

It has a great dental plan. I want to get that out there.

So one thing that I find so interesting about this particular conspiracy theory is that there is a bureaucracy. There are people who work in government. I mean, it's a kind of conspiracy that's like taking a thing that exists and giving it more malign intent and coordination than it really has. But it's not inventing a thing that doesn't exist.

So one thing that I find so interesting about this particular conspiracy theory is that there is a bureaucracy. There are people who work in government. I mean, it's a kind of conspiracy that's like taking a thing that exists and giving it more malign intent and coordination than it really has. But it's not inventing a thing that doesn't exist.

What's interesting is it's actually a very clever conspiracy. It's weaponizing sort of concerns that what people have. So if you're a leader like former President Trump was for example, and you can't just dictate and get your ways. You can call it a deep state, but what what I would call is sort of an existing professional bureaucracy of public servants who are in phibited by laws, regulations, norms, professional standards, making sure that everything is written down, everything is put through processes to get done. You can't just say invade Syria and expect that the next day are people going to invade serious So I can imagine that if you came in from the outside you don't understand how government works, you say, well, they're not doing exactly what I said. They think different than me, Their political enemies are trying to stop what I'm trying to accomplish. Whereas those of us who worked in that space, we understand that, No, there's a lot of things. Over time, civil service rules, regulations have been put in place to make sure that when the government takes action, it's done openly. It's done with input from the necessary bureaucracies and other agencies, but it's not done for nefarious or political reasons, which is what the term deep state suggests. The US government is huge, These agencies are complex and complicated. It's so complex you can't get your head around it. It's easier just to say, oh, they're evil, or they're working against my president or what have you.

What's interesting is it's actually a very clever conspiracy. It's weaponizing sort of concerns that what people have. So if you're a leader like former President Trump was for example, and you can't just dictate and get your ways. You can call it a deep state, but what what I would call is sort of an existing professional bureaucracy of public servants who are in phibited by laws, regulations, norms, professional standards, making sure that everything is written down, everything is put through processes to get done. You can't just say invade Syria and expect that the next day are people going to invade serious So I can imagine that if you came in from the outside you don't understand how government works, you say, well, they're not doing exactly what I said. They think different than me, Their political enemies are trying to stop what I'm trying to accomplish. Whereas those of us who worked in that space, we understand that, No, there's a lot of things. Over time, civil service rules, regulations have been put in place to make sure that when the government takes action, it's done openly. It's done with input from the necessary bureaucracies and other agencies, but it's not done for nefarious or political reasons, which is what the term deep state suggests. The US government is huge, These agencies are complex and complicated. It's so complex you can't get your head around it. It's easier just to say, oh, they're evil, or they're working against my president or what have you.

And it's dehumanizing as well. It's sort of along the lines of referring to the honorable opposition as radical Marxist Democrats or fascist Republicans or Rhinos, when these are just people that view things differently and do things differently.

And it's dehumanizing as well. It's sort of along the lines of referring to the honorable opposition as radical Marxist Democrats or fascist Republicans or Rhinos, when these are just people that view things differently and do things differently.

I will say the friends of mine who've been sort of permanent civil servants, actually I find it almost annoying when they work for an administration that I know politically they're not aligned with how obsessively nonpartisan they are. I can think of one administration fairly recently.

I will say the friends of mine who've been sort of permanent civil servants, actually I find it almost annoying when they work for an administration that I know politically they're not aligned with how obsessively nonpartisan they are. I can think of one administration fairly recently.

It's not the current one, but it was.

It's not the current one, but it was.

Recent where I actually felt like we needed a little more deep state, We needed more of that civil servant to say this isn't okay.

Recent where I actually felt like we needed a little more deep state, We needed more of that civil servant to say this isn't okay.

Right. We take an oath on the Constitution, not to a particular president or political party, and it's not like we want to have a dictator, like even for a day.

Right. We take an oath on the Constitution, not to a particular president or political party, and it's not like we want to have a dictator, like even for a day.

What is it like when you're we don't even have to get into what your politics are, but like, have you had to support or missions that you weren't personally totally sold.

What is it like when you're we don't even have to get into what your politics are, but like, have you had to support or missions that you weren't personally totally sold.

On, you know, Iraq War weapons of man's destruction. I have to admit that I changed my mind on that. I believed at the time, deeply, truly that we had the evidence on there.

On, you know, Iraq War weapons of man's destruction. I have to admit that I changed my mind on that. I believed at the time, deeply, truly that we had the evidence on there.

Also with the CIA, it's a weird institution, and we take pride in sometimes actually telling administrations and things they don't want to hear. And it's our job to come in and say, well, sir, that's just actually not how it's playing out here. Your plan is not likely to work for ab and C reasons. And it allows young officers to go into very senior places in the government and tell people that we think that they're wrong or that we have information that goes against what they would like it to be.

Also with the CIA, it's a weird institution, and we take pride in sometimes actually telling administrations and things they don't want to hear. And it's our job to come in and say, well, sir, that's just actually not how it's playing out here. Your plan is not likely to work for ab and C reasons. And it allows young officers to go into very senior places in the government and tell people that we think that they're wrong or that we have information that goes against what they would like it to be.

Serving an administration, Republican or Democrat is more than just the executive bridge more than just the president. Right, we have congressional overlords. They control our budget, and when we deal with them off the front pages of the newspaper, when we sit down and we brief congressmen and senators in our states, or we go up to the hill and we testify in confidential circumstances, most of them are pretty reasonable folks, and they get along better than you might expect Republicans and Democrats certainly on things like national security.

Serving an administration, Republican or Democrat is more than just the executive bridge more than just the president. Right, we have congressional overlords. They control our budget, and when we deal with them off the front pages of the newspaper, when we sit down and we brief congressmen and senators in our states, or we go up to the hill and we testify in confidential circumstances, most of them are pretty reasonable folks, and they get along better than you might expect Republicans and Democrats certainly on things like national security.

And as you're doing analysis, and this is true for journalism or deep state members like yourself. If you're analyzing I don't know the fighting strength of Ukraine or something like that, you might have your preferences or whatever, but if you're really dialed into like the latest talking points on whatever cable news channel, it messes you up. You get your analysis is wrong.

And as you're doing analysis, and this is true for journalism or deep state members like yourself. If you're analyzing I don't know the fighting strength of Ukraine or something like that, you might have your preferences or whatever, but if you're really dialed into like the latest talking points on whatever cable news channel, it messes you up. You get your analysis is wrong.

So there's the term deep state. And if you think about it, what's a shallow state? You know? And we've served in places with shallow states that don't have deep roots, where there isn't a rule of law, and where you know a leader just by whim can change things. And we don't want to live in those places. I mean, who wants to live in Somalia or Afghanistan where you know the next dictator can commit and change everything, and where civil servants will say anything and do anything, take any bribe to just make it to the next paycheck. You know, the deep state, where things are deeply anchored in law and order and culture.

So there's the term deep state. And if you think about it, what's a shallow state? You know? And we've served in places with shallow states that don't have deep roots, where there isn't a rule of law, and where you know a leader just by whim can change things. And we don't want to live in those places. I mean, who wants to live in Somalia or Afghanistan where you know the next dictator can commit and change everything, and where civil servants will say anything and do anything, take any bribe to just make it to the next paycheck. You know, the deep state, where things are deeply anchored in law and order and culture.

That's what we want and expertise, right, So the notions of a new leader comes in everybody leaves, the intelligence officers, the diplomats, the military people, everybody leaves because the leader has his own people, and that goes back and forth and back and forth. What we've created in this country over hundreds of years is, you know, a civil service, a public service that has expertise that's meant to be there to help inform politicians when they do come in. And so we've decided that the world is complex and we need people who are experts and work on issues for decades rather than just leaving every couple of years.

That's what we want and expertise, right, So the notions of a new leader comes in everybody leaves, the intelligence officers, the diplomats, the military people, everybody leaves because the leader has his own people, and that goes back and forth and back and forth. What we've created in this country over hundreds of years is, you know, a civil service, a public service that has expertise that's meant to be there to help inform politicians when they do come in. And so we've decided that the world is complex and we need people who are experts and work on issues for decades rather than just leaving every couple of years.

I remember in Okay it was it was a rock. I can say this but this because it's over. But one of the heads of their law enforcement agencies was a failed doctor who was only allowed to work on dead people. He was only allowed to do autopsies, and he was related to the right person. And so here's a guy who failed medical school, who has no background in law enforcement is now running basically one of their versions of the FBI. Do you really want this guy running the FBI who doesn't know anything and it is probably only going to be there for two years. You know, that's a shallow state, and that's you know, doesn't serve the Iraqi people, well doesn't serve us.

I remember in Okay it was it was a rock. I can say this but this because it's over. But one of the heads of their law enforcement agencies was a failed doctor who was only allowed to work on dead people. He was only allowed to do autopsies, and he was related to the right person. And so here's a guy who failed medical school, who has no background in law enforcement is now running basically one of their versions of the FBI. Do you really want this guy running the FBI who doesn't know anything and it is probably only going to be there for two years. You know, that's a shallow state, and that's you know, doesn't serve the Iraqi people, well doesn't serve us.

Well, now, Betty was good at stealing money for his relative, you bet.

Well, now, Betty was good at stealing money for his relative, you bet.

You he was. He is two years at the troth and he was going to take it right.

You he was. He is two years at the troth and he was going to take it right.

And I'm not going to sit here and have the Iraqi government insulted in this way.

And I'm not going to sit here and have the Iraqi government insulted in this way.

So yeah, let's coach state.

So yeah, let's coach state.

You know.

You know.

Well, there's a term in political economy that comes out of analysis of Middle Eastern governments, and they use the language of strong states and weak states, and the way it's defined as a it's a little counterintuitive that a weak state like Iraq is a state where they have to continually reen force their power. So, you know, Saddam or Mubarik or whomever sort of knows they're always an uprising away from being destroyed, and so they need to constantly remind people we're big, we're strong. We're big, we're strong. We're big, we're strong. And that leads to a kind of violent repression of the people. It leads to the corruption, et cetera. Because if the mentality is, look, my third cousin is prime minister now or president now, but that's not going to last forever. I better get everything I can, you know, it's like the old pre model in Mexico, where you have a six year term to make all the money you're going to make for your life, so you better use it wisely. Whereas a strong state is not a strong handed state.

Well, there's a term in political economy that comes out of analysis of Middle Eastern governments, and they use the language of strong states and weak states, and the way it's defined as a it's a little counterintuitive that a weak state like Iraq is a state where they have to continually reen force their power. So, you know, Saddam or Mubarik or whomever sort of knows they're always an uprising away from being destroyed, and so they need to constantly remind people we're big, we're strong. We're big, we're strong. We're big, we're strong. And that leads to a kind of violent repression of the people. It leads to the corruption, et cetera. Because if the mentality is, look, my third cousin is prime minister now or president now, but that's not going to last forever. I better get everything I can, you know, it's like the old pre model in Mexico, where you have a six year term to make all the money you're going to make for your life, so you better use it wisely. Whereas a strong state is not a strong handed state.

It's a state.

It's a state.

Where the state itself is a functioning entity that doesn't need to be continually reinforced. Resiliency, Yeah, resiliency is built in, and we may be weirdly trying to destroy that in the US, or some people are.

Where the state itself is a functioning entity that doesn't need to be continually reinforced. Resiliency, Yeah, resiliency is built in, and we may be weirdly trying to destroy that in the US, or some people are.

But let's use critical thinking on the demographics of the deep state. If you're if you are a member of the civil service, A you're never going to be rich, right, I mean, you're not going to be poor, but you're not making lots of money. You're making just enough so that you're not likely going to be tempted by bribes. Not that it doesn't happen, but you're making enough so that you know you're not going to look for like three hundred bucks to change your opinion on something like happens in Mexico and some of these other places where they don't pay their civil servants enough. These are people who have have agreed to stay in positions for decades to do the best job they can for a basic amount of pay. They basically carry out the dictates of the people in Congress who rail against them. You make a law, you say this is the way it is. You tell people this is how you're going to operate, and then you criticize them for doing so.

But let's use critical thinking on the demographics of the deep state. If you're if you are a member of the civil service, A you're never going to be rich, right, I mean, you're not going to be poor, but you're not making lots of money. You're making just enough so that you're not likely going to be tempted by bribes. Not that it doesn't happen, but you're making enough so that you know you're not going to look for like three hundred bucks to change your opinion on something like happens in Mexico and some of these other places where they don't pay their civil servants enough. These are people who have have agreed to stay in positions for decades to do the best job they can for a basic amount of pay. They basically carry out the dictates of the people in Congress who rail against them. You make a law, you say this is the way it is. You tell people this is how you're going to operate, and then you criticize them for doing so.

Remember when Trump came in and he thought the generals in the Pentagon were making millions of dollars, They told him like, they make one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year.

Remember when Trump came in and he thought the generals in the Pentagon were making millions of dollars, They told him like, they make one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year.

He's like, what, why would he do that?

He's like, what, why would he do that?

Well, then it says these are oh, they're losers. They're losers because they could be making more money some other way.

Well, then it says these are oh, they're losers. They're losers because they could be making more money some other way.

I was in China once when they happen to release like the richest fifty richest people in China list a bunch of business people, and someone I was with was like, the fifty richest people in China are a bunch of generals whose names you're never gonna hear.

I was in China once when they happen to release like the richest fifty richest people in China list a bunch of business people, and someone I was with was like, the fifty richest people in China are a bunch of generals whose names you're never gonna hear.

The same in Russia, Yeah, it's the rich guys or the guys of the intelligence community at the generals.

The same in Russia, Yeah, it's the rich guys or the guys of the intelligence community at the generals.

Yeah, they take pictures of these sort of bureau meetings and then you look at their watches and they're wearing like three hundred thousand dollars watches and you know, twenty thousand dollars suits, and these guys supposedly you're making you know, sixty thousand dollars a year.

Yeah, they take pictures of these sort of bureau meetings and then you look at their watches and they're wearing like three hundred thousand dollars watches and you know, twenty thousand dollars suits, and these guys supposedly you're making you know, sixty thousand dollars a year.

All right, guys, well, thanks so much for trying to persuade people you're not part of a vast deep state. I don't think you pulled it off, but it was interesting to watch the attempt.

All right, guys, well, thanks so much for trying to persuade people you're not part of a vast deep state. I don't think you pulled it off, but it was interesting to watch the attempt.

Adam, will we be sending you an application to join the Deeps?

Adam, will we be sending you an application to join the Deeps?

I'd love to.

I'd love to.

I've I've been waiting to be asked.

I've I've been waiting to be asked.

Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry Osha, John Cipher, and Jonathan Sterner. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission Implausible is a production of Honorable Mention and Abominable Pictures for iHeartMedia

Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry Osha, John Cipher, and Jonathan Sterner. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission Implausible is a production of Honorable Mention and Abominable Pictures for iHeartMedia