I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I was a CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts in Europe, Russia, and in Asia.

I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I was a CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts in Europe, Russia, and in Asia.

And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive our adversaries.

And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive our adversaries.

Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy theories large and small.

Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy theories large and small.

Could they be true?

Could they be true?

Or are we being manipulated?

Or are we being manipulated?

This is mission implausible.

This is mission implausible.

This is part two of our interview with Adam's friend Drew McCoy. Drew McCoy as a host of the podcast Genetically Modified Skeptic. Last week we were discussing the overlap between religion and conspiratorial thinking. So let's pick up where we left off for part two.

This is part two of our interview with Adam's friend Drew McCoy. Drew McCoy as a host of the podcast Genetically Modified Skeptic. Last week we were discussing the overlap between religion and conspiratorial thinking. So let's pick up where we left off for part two.

I got a not a long PERI Rasia. I got a question for you. How do you view the conflation now between the Trumpest movement and evangelicals where Trump himself is fulfilling biblical prophecies according to some people, right, so this itself is a conspiracy theory that Trump is not if he plays in his own realizes this thing that the world is screwed up in God sent Trump. He plays this himself, and he plays into this. How do you view that the sort of the religiousification of trump Ism.

I got a not a long PERI Rasia. I got a question for you. How do you view the conflation now between the Trumpest movement and evangelicals where Trump himself is fulfilling biblical prophecies according to some people, right, so this itself is a conspiracy theory that Trump is not if he plays in his own realizes this thing that the world is screwed up in God sent Trump. He plays this himself, and he plays into this. How do you view that the sort of the religiousification of trump Ism.

Well, Trump is a populist, right, so he's saying that there's this big conspiracy against him, against the common man. They need to drain the swamp, they need to abolish the deep state, all of these things. And this just has a hand in hand relationship with pre existing pre Trump Evangelical Christian theology. We believe that the world was ruled by the prince of this world, Satan. That's something that I was raised to believe and is to be sold this idea that, oh, all of my political opponents, everyone that's against the Trump brand is just a part of the deep state, a part of a Satanic conspiracy theory. It's the most natural thing in the world. It's the easiest thing to possibly see coming if you grew up in the evangelical world.

Well, Trump is a populist, right, so he's saying that there's this big conspiracy against him, against the common man. They need to drain the swamp, they need to abolish the deep state, all of these things. And this just has a hand in hand relationship with pre existing pre Trump Evangelical Christian theology. We believe that the world was ruled by the prince of this world, Satan. That's something that I was raised to believe and is to be sold this idea that, oh, all of my political opponents, everyone that's against the Trump brand is just a part of the deep state, a part of a Satanic conspiracy theory. It's the most natural thing in the world. It's the easiest thing to possibly see coming if you grew up in the evangelical world.

I think for those of us not in the world, it's one of the great puzzles of our age, Like, how is it possible that these people who got so outraged by Bill Clinton's now almost quaintctions a blowjob could embrace this theatrically libertine. I mean the only way he describes himself is as immoral, I mean literally playing with the ideas of incest and constant sexual immorality. So for I think, for us outside, it just seems utterly confounding. It just makes no sense. But you're saying, for you, it's there's no mystery, it's just obvious. Yeah.

I think for those of us not in the world, it's one of the great puzzles of our age, Like, how is it possible that these people who got so outraged by Bill Clinton's now almost quaintctions a blowjob could embrace this theatrically libertine. I mean the only way he describes himself is as immoral, I mean literally playing with the ideas of incest and constant sexual immorality. So for I think, for us outside, it just seems utterly confounding. It just makes no sense. But you're saying, for you, it's there's no mystery, it's just obvious. Yeah.

I think a lot of people from the outside see Christianity and religion in general is nothing more than a moral framework, and the moral framework of any given religion is usually very important and somewhat central. But people from the outside looking into something like evangelical as will not see the narrative framework, the interpretive framework for just everyday life that occurs in these circles. So while yes, evangelicals are very puritanical about sex and drugs and to a certain extent, alcohol, certainly they don't approve of making sexually suggestive comments about your own children, that's for sure. They do see a deeply dualistic reality in everything, and when someone comes along and says that they represent pure good fighting pure evil, that's a pretty strong selling point, especially when you are able to hit on points like bureaucracy itself is flooded with people who are fundamentally evil, which is like a subplot in the evangelical Christian narrative. So we really can't get hung up too much on just thinking of anything within religion, anything within evangelicalism, as just some kind of moral framework for people to follow. We have to look at the stories, the myths, the legends that they tell themselves in everyday life that they teach their children.

I think a lot of people from the outside see Christianity and religion in general is nothing more than a moral framework, and the moral framework of any given religion is usually very important and somewhat central. But people from the outside looking into something like evangelical as will not see the narrative framework, the interpretive framework for just everyday life that occurs in these circles. So while yes, evangelicals are very puritanical about sex and drugs and to a certain extent, alcohol, certainly they don't approve of making sexually suggestive comments about your own children, that's for sure. They do see a deeply dualistic reality in everything, and when someone comes along and says that they represent pure good fighting pure evil, that's a pretty strong selling point, especially when you are able to hit on points like bureaucracy itself is flooded with people who are fundamentally evil, which is like a subplot in the evangelical Christian narrative. So we really can't get hung up too much on just thinking of anything within religion, anything within evangelicalism, as just some kind of moral framework for people to follow. We have to look at the stories, the myths, the legends that they tell themselves in everyday life that they teach their children.

But if someone like Biden had done the same myths and said, you know, I'm finding evil, would that have worked. It seems to me that it already fits into a narrative of right wing.

But if someone like Biden had done the same myths and said, you know, I'm finding evil, would that have worked. It seems to me that it already fits into a narrative of right wing.

It's really hard to say. I do think that Biden probably would have had a harder time going against somebody who does not have any prior affiliation with the Catholic Church. The evangelical vote used to be quite anti Catholic. Now it's getting a lot more ecumenical. In order to vote for someone like Trump, in order to support people like pundits like Matt Walsh and Michael Knowles who are Catholic, it's got to become more ecumenical. But I think that if you were to put two candidates in opposite opposition to each other, all things being equal, except for one having more of a Protestant background, like Trump, arguably versus Joe Biden, who's a long time Catholic. I would see the person with more of a Protestant background probably out.

It's really hard to say. I do think that Biden probably would have had a harder time going against somebody who does not have any prior affiliation with the Catholic Church. The evangelical vote used to be quite anti Catholic. Now it's getting a lot more ecumenical. In order to vote for someone like Trump, in order to support people like pundits like Matt Walsh and Michael Knowles who are Catholic, it's got to become more ecumenical. But I think that if you were to put two candidates in opposite opposition to each other, all things being equal, except for one having more of a Protestant background, like Trump, arguably versus Joe Biden, who's a long time Catholic. I would see the person with more of a Protestant background probably out.

On the ecumenical part on gob Smith, that someone like Tulci Giebert, someone who belongs to a breakaway Hari Krishna sect that believes that this guy Chris Butler is the literal word of God on earth and must be obeyed. And someone like this running in charge of CIA and the US intelligence community. I'm shocked that the evangelical community is like fine with it, and it seems to me that almost the Great Man is more important than anything. I also want to ask how you escaped from that mindset.

On the ecumenical part on gob Smith, that someone like Tulci Giebert, someone who belongs to a breakaway Hari Krishna sect that believes that this guy Chris Butler is the literal word of God on earth and must be obeyed. And someone like this running in charge of CIA and the US intelligence community. I'm shocked that the evangelical community is like fine with it, and it seems to me that almost the Great Man is more important than anything. I also want to ask how you escaped from that mindset.

I mean, everything we talked about on this show. I was looking at some statistics. Twenty seven percent of evangelical Christians believe QAnon is mostly true, highest group by far, I think, double any other group. Over sixty percent believe that the election was stolen. In twenty twenty, fifty five percent believed that there's a deep state that you guys are representatives of that is controlling outcome. So that doesn't feel like a very practical political project that we just have to take fifty five percent of evangelical Christians and get them to no longer be evangelical Christians, which we don't want to do in and of itself. It's just how do you break the conspiracy theory?

I mean, everything we talked about on this show. I was looking at some statistics. Twenty seven percent of evangelical Christians believe QAnon is mostly true, highest group by far, I think, double any other group. Over sixty percent believe that the election was stolen. In twenty twenty, fifty five percent believed that there's a deep state that you guys are representatives of that is controlling outcome. So that doesn't feel like a very practical political project that we just have to take fifty five percent of evangelical Christians and get them to no longer be evangelical Christians, which we don't want to do in and of itself. It's just how do you break the conspiracy theory?

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that. I don't think that when it comes to evangelicals and conspiracy theories, that the call is only coming from inside the house at this point. I think that the evangelical conspiracy mill, the circling the wagons to protect religious identity infrastructure that's in place, is the only thing that is producing conspiracy theories. I think that the fact that evangelicals have harved a path in American society so strongly of working with governments ken Ham's Ark encounter, being able to work with local governments in Kentucky in order to get taxpayer dollars to support his mission of building a Noah's Ark based theme park for fundamentalist Christians, his project of getting DVDs that talk about creation quote science and sending them to schools to be actually used a science curriculum. That path having been carved in American society means that kind of morally flexible grifters who don't care about religion, they don't care about the Gospel or anything like this, can just jump directly in that path that's already been carved. They can copy it, and then they can also prey on an audience that has been psychologically primed to accept conspiracy theories when it comes to something like QAnon. I don't think that it is the most devout of evangelicals that are actually taking that up. I think it's people who identify as evangelical, yes, and maybe we're primed to accept things like conspiracy theories, But I don't think that it's people who are in church super regularly, who are really integrated into religious community and this sort of thing, you know, strong enmeshment in religious life, that are the strongest believers in q If you can indulge me in a little bit of analysis of some of the psychological components of a person who accepts conspiracy theories, if we look at the research that we've seen some psychologists do in the past, had to twenty years or so. This is I'm sourcing this from American studies scholar Peter Knight. He said that psychologists have developed an ever more detailed picture of what we call the conspiratorial mind. They found correlations between conspiracy thinking and personality traits such as paranoia, narcissism, suspiciousness, and cynicism, as well as feelings of alienation it's a really important one. Uncertainty, powerlessness, that's a really important one. Anxiety and loss of control another important one. If we look at the people who attend church and are the most enmeshed in evangelical communities, these are not poor lonely people. Actually people who go to evangelical church, which more often people that go weekly, are actually the folks that tend to have more money and more power and are just have more stable lives in general. So per Ryan Burge, as one becomes more educated, the less likely they are as an evangelical to be someone who rarely or seldom or never attends church. Now, the same is true of income. The richer you get, the more likely you are of being a regularly attending evangelical. So I think that we need to consider the idea that maybe people who are horror people who are not in Meshan religious communities that identify as evangelicals might be the people who are most up for grabs for like morally flexible grifters who pretend to be evangelicals, people like Q to gain power to manipulate people. I think that it's probably poor, not particularly and meshed lonely people who identify as evangelical, who are actually gravitating toward these conspiracies in the most extreme way.

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that. I don't think that when it comes to evangelicals and conspiracy theories, that the call is only coming from inside the house at this point. I think that the evangelical conspiracy mill, the circling the wagons to protect religious identity infrastructure that's in place, is the only thing that is producing conspiracy theories. I think that the fact that evangelicals have harved a path in American society so strongly of working with governments ken Ham's Ark encounter, being able to work with local governments in Kentucky in order to get taxpayer dollars to support his mission of building a Noah's Ark based theme park for fundamentalist Christians, his project of getting DVDs that talk about creation quote science and sending them to schools to be actually used a science curriculum. That path having been carved in American society means that kind of morally flexible grifters who don't care about religion, they don't care about the Gospel or anything like this, can just jump directly in that path that's already been carved. They can copy it, and then they can also prey on an audience that has been psychologically primed to accept conspiracy theories when it comes to something like QAnon. I don't think that it is the most devout of evangelicals that are actually taking that up. I think it's people who identify as evangelical, yes, and maybe we're primed to accept things like conspiracy theories, But I don't think that it's people who are in church super regularly, who are really integrated into religious community and this sort of thing, you know, strong enmeshment in religious life, that are the strongest believers in q If you can indulge me in a little bit of analysis of some of the psychological components of a person who accepts conspiracy theories, if we look at the research that we've seen some psychologists do in the past, had to twenty years or so. This is I'm sourcing this from American studies scholar Peter Knight. He said that psychologists have developed an ever more detailed picture of what we call the conspiratorial mind. They found correlations between conspiracy thinking and personality traits such as paranoia, narcissism, suspiciousness, and cynicism, as well as feelings of alienation it's a really important one. Uncertainty, powerlessness, that's a really important one. Anxiety and loss of control another important one. If we look at the people who attend church and are the most enmeshed in evangelical communities, these are not poor lonely people. Actually people who go to evangelical church, which more often people that go weekly, are actually the folks that tend to have more money and more power and are just have more stable lives in general. So per Ryan Burge, as one becomes more educated, the less likely they are as an evangelical to be someone who rarely or seldom or never attends church. Now, the same is true of income. The richer you get, the more likely you are of being a regularly attending evangelical. So I think that we need to consider the idea that maybe people who are horror people who are not in Meshan religious communities that identify as evangelicals might be the people who are most up for grabs for like morally flexible grifters who pretend to be evangelicals, people like Q to gain power to manipulate people. I think that it's probably poor, not particularly and meshed lonely people who identify as evangelical, who are actually gravitating toward these conspiracies in the most extreme way.

Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back, Drew.

Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back, Drew.

I saw your video about becoming an atheist. I thought it was very interesting and very well argued. You've become an atheist, obviously there was a community that you were in before. What is it that you've kept from your past religious belief Have you totally broken from those sort of viewer? What is it you still keep even if it's not part of a specific religion.

I saw your video about becoming an atheist. I thought it was very interesting and very well argued. You've become an atheist, obviously there was a community that you were in before. What is it that you've kept from your past religious belief Have you totally broken from those sort of viewer? What is it you still keep even if it's not part of a specific religion.

I do think that I've kept a certain amount of the Protestant Christian moral framework. I like to think that I'm not as prone to conspiracy theories, but I guess maybe that's not entirely for the individual to judge. Always, I still cite certain teachings of both the Apostle Paul and Jesus as not the moral foundations for my kind of moral ideology, but the catalysts or the impetus for the moral foundations that I do have. So if you look at the story of the Good Samaritan, you know found in the Gospel of Luke, there's this idea of that you should love and support your neighbor, that you should show them kindness, you should express altruism to people who are not in your in group, and in fact that the ability to do this maybe is the truest indication of moral righteousness, or at least centeredness. And that is something that I think that very parables focused Protestant Christians actually are pretty good at teaching their kids a lot of the time. I like to think that my parents did a good job of teaching me that kind of thing. I definitely credit them for that. I don't think that people like my parents, Evangelical Christians who are very conspiratorial, do a particularly good job of actually acting upon the things they've taught their children. I see myself as representative of kind of a generation of Evangelicals who took to the moral teachings of Jesus, and we ran with them so hard that we ran up against the church communities that we saw as betraying them. So in a way. I think that becoming an atheist morally speaking, was one of the most Christian decisions I have ever made. I was taught about discernment, about moral purity, and in order to abide by what I thought was right, both morally and philosophically and scientifically, I had to get out of the church community and be something else.

I do think that I've kept a certain amount of the Protestant Christian moral framework. I like to think that I'm not as prone to conspiracy theories, but I guess maybe that's not entirely for the individual to judge. Always, I still cite certain teachings of both the Apostle Paul and Jesus as not the moral foundations for my kind of moral ideology, but the catalysts or the impetus for the moral foundations that I do have. So if you look at the story of the Good Samaritan, you know found in the Gospel of Luke, there's this idea of that you should love and support your neighbor, that you should show them kindness, you should express altruism to people who are not in your in group, and in fact that the ability to do this maybe is the truest indication of moral righteousness, or at least centeredness. And that is something that I think that very parables focused Protestant Christians actually are pretty good at teaching their kids a lot of the time. I like to think that my parents did a good job of teaching me that kind of thing. I definitely credit them for that. I don't think that people like my parents, Evangelical Christians who are very conspiratorial, do a particularly good job of actually acting upon the things they've taught their children. I see myself as representative of kind of a generation of Evangelicals who took to the moral teachings of Jesus, and we ran with them so hard that we ran up against the church communities that we saw as betraying them. So in a way. I think that becoming an atheist morally speaking, was one of the most Christian decisions I have ever made. I was taught about discernment, about moral purity, and in order to abide by what I thought was right, both morally and philosophically and scientifically, I had to get out of the church community and be something else.

Was there a damascene moment or cascade of events where you woke up one morning and like, yeah, I don't believe anymore.

Was there a damascene moment or cascade of events where you woke up one morning and like, yeah, I don't believe anymore.

I describe my exodus from Christianity as a set of dominoes falling, and the first domino fell, and then after or maybe years, another domino fell, and with every domino there's an acceleration of these dominoes falling, and eventually, within a period of just a few months, which was right around the time when I was graduating from college, most of the dominoes started to fall. So it started with me really questioning the creation narrative that I was taught, and then eventually going into grad school and studying human sexuality. It was the moral narrative that homosexuality was an abomination, even though, as far as I could tell, trying to suppress someone's sexual orientation is actually extremely harmful for them. And eventually, you know, that led me to just fundamentally questioning the nature of God in existence and of the supernatural. And I got to the point again over a matter of years of slow deliberation and contemplation into a period of a few months, I would say about four months of really extremely intense philosophical moral delay liberation that led me out of identifying as a Christian. The silver lining to the awful experience was that I didn't feel bad about finally reading all of the educational books that I knew existed but I thought were wrong somehow. So me actually being able to read something like the Origin of the Species rather than just hearing about it was an ecstatic experience for me. But there is only so much reading of old, stuffy science books that can distract you from social suicide. It was nearly complete social suicide in a lot of ways. The reason I started my YouTube channel was so that I could vent about all of the ideas that were going on in my head. But I just didn't have anybody to speak to in real life about this. My community around me was all evangelical, so I had to go online to talk about it, and through that venture things absolutely have gotten better. But leaving evangelical circles is, especially when you're going to become an atheist, is extremely difficult. It sucks for sure.

I describe my exodus from Christianity as a set of dominoes falling, and the first domino fell, and then after or maybe years, another domino fell, and with every domino there's an acceleration of these dominoes falling, and eventually, within a period of just a few months, which was right around the time when I was graduating from college, most of the dominoes started to fall. So it started with me really questioning the creation narrative that I was taught, and then eventually going into grad school and studying human sexuality. It was the moral narrative that homosexuality was an abomination, even though, as far as I could tell, trying to suppress someone's sexual orientation is actually extremely harmful for them. And eventually, you know, that led me to just fundamentally questioning the nature of God in existence and of the supernatural. And I got to the point again over a matter of years of slow deliberation and contemplation into a period of a few months, I would say about four months of really extremely intense philosophical moral delay liberation that led me out of identifying as a Christian. The silver lining to the awful experience was that I didn't feel bad about finally reading all of the educational books that I knew existed but I thought were wrong somehow. So me actually being able to read something like the Origin of the Species rather than just hearing about it was an ecstatic experience for me. But there is only so much reading of old, stuffy science books that can distract you from social suicide. It was nearly complete social suicide in a lot of ways. The reason I started my YouTube channel was so that I could vent about all of the ideas that were going on in my head. But I just didn't have anybody to speak to in real life about this. My community around me was all evangelical, so I had to go online to talk about it, and through that venture things absolutely have gotten better. But leaving evangelical circles is, especially when you're going to become an atheist, is extremely difficult. It sucks for sure.

There's a parallel in the intelligence community. So historically, some of our best agents, people who've spied for SAA were true believers in their own systems or their own ideologies and the union. They believed in communism. They were some of the stars, the best and brightest, and then, almost mirroring your own set of experiences, they realized that they had been either been had or that try as they might, they simply couldn't believe the force of logic and events and what they saw led them to break at least internally. But they couldn't open a YouTube channel to tell the truth. Instead, they would look up someone like John and say, I just can't live with myself. I need someone to talk to I need to say what I really think, And then that flipped off into espionage.

There's a parallel in the intelligence community. So historically, some of our best agents, people who've spied for SAA were true believers in their own systems or their own ideologies and the union. They believed in communism. They were some of the stars, the best and brightest, and then, almost mirroring your own set of experiences, they realized that they had been either been had or that try as they might, they simply couldn't believe the force of logic and events and what they saw led them to break at least internally. But they couldn't open a YouTube channel to tell the truth. Instead, they would look up someone like John and say, I just can't live with myself. I need someone to talk to I need to say what I really think, And then that flipped off into espionage.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I started my channel as a way to help myself to vent when I was in a really difficult social situation, but eventually the channel became a way to try to help other people. I started getting a lot of messages a few months in that said things like I'm desperately alone, no one supports me. I've never heard anyone say the things that you're saying without being heavily criticized or punished, essentially, And I just want you to know how therapeutic it is for me to know that someone like you even exists at all. And these people, these are Americans, people in a country with freedom of religion, telling me that what I'm saying sounds like something that has been horribly suppressed and that you would suffer horrible consequences for saying. Eventually, I even started getting some messages where people were saying that just consuming my content and knowing that someone like me existed helped the person decide against ending their lives. And it's it's a honestly, it's a relatable experience.

I started my channel as a way to help myself to vent when I was in a really difficult social situation, but eventually the channel became a way to try to help other people. I started getting a lot of messages a few months in that said things like I'm desperately alone, no one supports me. I've never heard anyone say the things that you're saying without being heavily criticized or punished, essentially, And I just want you to know how therapeutic it is for me to know that someone like you even exists at all. And these people, these are Americans, people in a country with freedom of religion, telling me that what I'm saying sounds like something that has been horribly suppressed and that you would suffer horrible consequences for saying. Eventually, I even started getting some messages where people were saying that just consuming my content and knowing that someone like me existed helped the person decide against ending their lives. And it's it's a honestly, it's a relatable experience.

You know.

You know.

When I opened that up and read it, I wasn't actually very shocked that someone would say that. I was maybe surprised that my little YouTube videos made that kind of an impact, but I wasn't surprised the person was going through that not at all as.

When I opened that up and read it, I wasn't actually very shocked that someone would say that. I was maybe surprised that my little YouTube videos made that kind of an impact, but I wasn't surprised the person was going through that not at all as.

A CIA off. So one of the most moving episodes for me was in the third world country. I'm sitting at a bar. I have gotten to know this North Korean and he's had his third drink and we're building a genuine friendship and he like pulps hard and he looks at me. He looks, looks over both of his shoulders and he says, I don't really love the great leader. And it was like what he said is a death sentence if he'd sent this to his mother, anybody he loved. And yet sitting across from someone, it was like, I can say this, I'm gonna I'm safe here, And it was like extraordinarily difficult and dangerous for him to even entertain this idea.

A CIA off. So one of the most moving episodes for me was in the third world country. I'm sitting at a bar. I have gotten to know this North Korean and he's had his third drink and we're building a genuine friendship and he like pulps hard and he looks at me. He looks, looks over both of his shoulders and he says, I don't really love the great leader. And it was like what he said is a death sentence if he'd sent this to his mother, anybody he loved. And yet sitting across from someone, it was like, I can say this, I'm gonna I'm safe here, And it was like extraordinarily difficult and dangerous for him to even entertain this idea.

And because you were drunk, you gave him up.

And because you were drunk, you gave him up.

Yeah, and demon in the sport. But that was something I experienced in Iraq, talking to Iraqis who knew in their minds they always hated Saddam. Often they would have people in their life they could whisper too, but only a small number. But still confronting the post Saddam world was really disorienting and figuring out how to talk about this kind of defining structure of their lives. I mean, I remember I was in Baghdad the day Saddam was caught, and then if you remember, they had those videos of him looking all disheveled and poking around in his mouth. I think that was a huge mistake for the US to release those videos because it really I think it humiliated iraqis. Like I remember sitting with my translator and him just sharing like I hated him, but I had a lot of pride that I'm from his country. That the core narrative of my life was that this all powerful genius with superpowers, like we believed on some level that he could see you through the TV and knew what you were thinking. And to see him that he's just this old foolish man who's being pushed around and humiliated, that was unbearable. Even though he hated this guy hated Saddam. It sure feels like a more muscular evangelicalism is on the upswing right now, and that conspiracy theory belief is on the upswing right now. Weirdly, the thing you said about how it's lonely isolated folks, it's actually somewhat optimistic in that maybe that's an avenue that if people have more connection more and again, I don't think we have an agenda. We want people to have a different religion, but we're not for conspiracy theories like we see them as a corrosive part of our political system, and if fewer people believe to them, it feels like it would be better. So are there things we can do other than having a kind of podcast where we mock each other a lot and occasionally talk about conspiracy theories.

Yeah, and demon in the sport. But that was something I experienced in Iraq, talking to Iraqis who knew in their minds they always hated Saddam. Often they would have people in their life they could whisper too, but only a small number. But still confronting the post Saddam world was really disorienting and figuring out how to talk about this kind of defining structure of their lives. I mean, I remember I was in Baghdad the day Saddam was caught, and then if you remember, they had those videos of him looking all disheveled and poking around in his mouth. I think that was a huge mistake for the US to release those videos because it really I think it humiliated iraqis. Like I remember sitting with my translator and him just sharing like I hated him, but I had a lot of pride that I'm from his country. That the core narrative of my life was that this all powerful genius with superpowers, like we believed on some level that he could see you through the TV and knew what you were thinking. And to see him that he's just this old foolish man who's being pushed around and humiliated, that was unbearable. Even though he hated this guy hated Saddam. It sure feels like a more muscular evangelicalism is on the upswing right now, and that conspiracy theory belief is on the upswing right now. Weirdly, the thing you said about how it's lonely isolated folks, it's actually somewhat optimistic in that maybe that's an avenue that if people have more connection more and again, I don't think we have an agenda. We want people to have a different religion, but we're not for conspiracy theories like we see them as a corrosive part of our political system, and if fewer people believe to them, it feels like it would be better. So are there things we can do other than having a kind of podcast where we mock each other a lot and occasionally talk about conspiracy theories.

From my perspective, a thing that combats radicalization, whether it's ideological or believing in conspiracy theories, whatever, is mostly human connection. It's a bit counterintuitive to say, but the evangelicals that I think are peddling conspiracy theories the most are the people who are actually not very involved in the kind of religious community in real life. They're just spending time in online circles and trying to defend their identities while being extremely lonely and cut off from anyone through waxing poetic about conspiracy theories on four Chan or something like this. I think it'd be better for if those people just went to church. To be honest, as an atheist, I don't agree with the epistemology within evangelical church or in any kind of tradition that affirms supernaturalist ideas. But I think, just on a practical level, if people are integrated into communities in real life more often than I think that the underlying factors that predispose you to conspiracy belief start to be eroded away. If people are not in their basements, or they're den or something, or on their phones just peddling conspiracy theories just to feel something. If instead they're in the pew and they're singing about something that makes them happy and hanging out with people who like them, I think they're less of a danger to people like me.

From my perspective, a thing that combats radicalization, whether it's ideological or believing in conspiracy theories, whatever, is mostly human connection. It's a bit counterintuitive to say, but the evangelicals that I think are peddling conspiracy theories the most are the people who are actually not very involved in the kind of religious community in real life. They're just spending time in online circles and trying to defend their identities while being extremely lonely and cut off from anyone through waxing poetic about conspiracy theories on four Chan or something like this. I think it'd be better for if those people just went to church. To be honest, as an atheist, I don't agree with the epistemology within evangelical church or in any kind of tradition that affirms supernaturalist ideas. But I think, just on a practical level, if people are integrated into communities in real life more often than I think that the underlying factors that predispose you to conspiracy belief start to be eroded away. If people are not in their basements, or they're den or something, or on their phones just peddling conspiracy theories just to feel something. If instead they're in the pew and they're singing about something that makes them happy and hanging out with people who like them, I think they're less of a danger to people like me.

You've talked to me about it, I know a bit. But what is it like with your family now, Like they still have the same beliefs right.

You've talked to me about it, I know a bit. But what is it like with your family now, Like they still have the same beliefs right.

To a certain degree, My family has the same beliefs. My parents raise me independent fundamental Baptist, although they go to a Southern Baptist church now, which is really similar. But they're not white as dogmatic about kind of the literalist younger creationism bit. They're a little bit more interested in integrating into American society than fundamentalists, who are basically separatists. But through the influence of alternative medicine and anti vax conspiracy theories. Some people in my immediate family, on my side, not on my wife's side, are anti vaxxers who believe in re incarnation. They believe in chakras.

To a certain degree, My family has the same beliefs. My parents raise me independent fundamental Baptist, although they go to a Southern Baptist church now, which is really similar. But they're not white as dogmatic about kind of the literalist younger creationism bit. They're a little bit more interested in integrating into American society than fundamentalists, who are basically separatists. But through the influence of alternative medicine and anti vax conspiracy theories. Some people in my immediate family, on my side, not on my wife's side, are anti vaxxers who believe in re incarnation. They believe in chakras.

As fundamentalist Christians well.

As fundamentalist Christians well.

As Evangelical Christians sevangelical Christians. The funny thing is that I think because of the priming to accept pseudoscience, they actually see things like reincarnation and the chakras and essential oils and quantum mysticism as all having a scientific basis, so they're not in conflict with Christianity. This is how God made the world. He made us having a root chakra and the heart chakra and things like this. But if you want to receive salvation, the plan is basically the same that I grew up with, and the moral values that I grew up with are basically the same for them as well as the whole We need to drain the swamp spiritually speak.

As Evangelical Christians sevangelical Christians. The funny thing is that I think because of the priming to accept pseudoscience, they actually see things like reincarnation and the chakras and essential oils and quantum mysticism as all having a scientific basis, so they're not in conflict with Christianity. This is how God made the world. He made us having a root chakra and the heart chakra and things like this. But if you want to receive salvation, the plan is basically the same that I grew up with, and the moral values that I grew up with are basically the same for them as well as the whole We need to drain the swamp spiritually speak.

Since you've moved away from and you become an atheist, and you said earlier if following the values is not enough, you're going to go to hell. How do you deal when you deal with your family, who obviously loves you, that they think you're going to hell? Or you would think you're going to.

Since you've moved away from and you become an atheist, and you said earlier if following the values is not enough, you're going to go to hell. How do you deal when you deal with your family, who obviously loves you, that they think you're going to hell? Or you would think you're going to.

Hell, I should say. The first thing that I was concerned about when I came out to my family as an atheist was that my parents were going to think I was going to Hell. And I couldn't imagine personally having a family member, especially a child, that I thought was going to burn in hell for all eternity. We believed in a literal lake of fire. Its pretty gnarly stuff, and so I didn't want to burden them with that. Even if I didn't think that it was true, they would think it's true, and that's enough. When I came out to them, I asked them straight away. I was like, guys, I'm an atheist. Do you think I'm going to Hell? And they pretty immediately said no. Because there is this doctrine within a subset of evangelic Christians of Once Saved, Always Saved a lot of people say that if you ever become an atheist or another religion when you were a practicing Christian, then you never really were a true Christian. But my family could not accept the idea that I was never a true Christian. They raised me to be a Christian. They saw me act on my Christian values. They saw the evidence of the fruits of the spirit in me, and their faith in my faith could not be shaken, So that actually did smooth things over a bit.

Hell, I should say. The first thing that I was concerned about when I came out to my family as an atheist was that my parents were going to think I was going to Hell. And I couldn't imagine personally having a family member, especially a child, that I thought was going to burn in hell for all eternity. We believed in a literal lake of fire. Its pretty gnarly stuff, and so I didn't want to burden them with that. Even if I didn't think that it was true, they would think it's true, and that's enough. When I came out to them, I asked them straight away. I was like, guys, I'm an atheist. Do you think I'm going to Hell? And they pretty immediately said no. Because there is this doctrine within a subset of evangelic Christians of Once Saved, Always Saved a lot of people say that if you ever become an atheist or another religion when you were a practicing Christian, then you never really were a true Christian. But my family could not accept the idea that I was never a true Christian. They raised me to be a Christian. They saw me act on my Christian values. They saw the evidence of the fruits of the spirit in me, and their faith in my faith could not be shaken, So that actually did smooth things over a bit.

But you think you're going to hell.

But you think you're going to hell.

I think I'm going to hell. They don't think I'm going to hell.

I think I'm going to hell. They don't think I'm going to hell.

And that's how you don't believe in hell, which makes it a little easier.

And that's how you don't believe in hell, which makes it a little easier.

But I've got good news for you, guys. If you go seek, they don't believe that you're going to go to hell. If you live a good life, if you're a good Christian, a good Jew, a good Muslim, a good Hindu, you're gonna make it.

But I've got good news for you, guys. If you go seek, they don't believe that you're going to go to hell. If you live a good life, if you're a good Christian, a good Jew, a good Muslim, a good Hindu, you're gonna make it.

Hold on just a second, Well we take a quick break.

Hold on just a second, Well we take a quick break.

We've been talking about the connection between conspiracy theories and evangelical Certain evangelical faith almost get an organic phenomenon. But to what extent is this industrialized? You talked about morally questionable, morally flexible grifters. If what we wanted to do is make a lot of money, there's a really clear path to spout these theories. So how organized is this? How much dare I say, how much of a real conspira is the conspiracy theory pedaling to evangelical audiences.

We've been talking about the connection between conspiracy theories and evangelical Certain evangelical faith almost get an organic phenomenon. But to what extent is this industrialized? You talked about morally questionable, morally flexible grifters. If what we wanted to do is make a lot of money, there's a really clear path to spout these theories. So how organized is this? How much dare I say, how much of a real conspira is the conspiracy theory pedaling to evangelical audiences.

Let's talk about someone who I'm sure you guys have spoken about more times than you would like. Marjorie Taylor Green. Marjorie Taylor Green obviously Jewish space laser's lady, right.

Let's talk about someone who I'm sure you guys have spoken about more times than you would like. Marjorie Taylor Green. Marjorie Taylor Green obviously Jewish space laser's lady, right.

Yeah, she We looked into it.

Yeah, she We looked into it.

It seems unlikely that there are Jewish space lazers. It also seems impractical, just so you know.

It seems unlikely that there are Jewish space lazers. It also seems impractical, just so you know.

Yeah, but Marjorie Taylor Green was raised Catholic, but around the time she started running for public office, she started getting involved in an evangelical community called North Point Church. It's a non denominational megachurch in northern Atlanta, I believe, and she was publicly baptized there. She started getting integrated into that church. And while her brand, while her own autobiographical blurbs about herself make it sound like she's extremely heavily involved in North Point in religious community, in real life, I'm not so sure that's the case. So I came across this really great article from Elena plot calabro And that was published in the Atlantic, and she says that Green's involvement per a source that Elena spoke to in north Point Church, her involvement tapered off after several years and Elena also noted that Brad Raffensberger, the Georgia Secretary of State who defied Donald Trump, he's very long been involved with North Point, and apparently no one ever really asks about him. So this guy who's strongly integrated into this evangelical community is someone who I most certainly remiss a little bit for partisan reasons saying this about a strong Republican, But he seems like a guy with a pretty stable moral center, with real principles, who's willing to stand up against basically attempted fascism, Whereas Marjorie Taylor Green gets involved in religious communities from the outside in order to gain a base that is psychologically primed to accept the kind of bullshit that she spews for cash.

Yeah, but Marjorie Taylor Green was raised Catholic, but around the time she started running for public office, she started getting involved in an evangelical community called North Point Church. It's a non denominational megachurch in northern Atlanta, I believe, and she was publicly baptized there. She started getting integrated into that church. And while her brand, while her own autobiographical blurbs about herself make it sound like she's extremely heavily involved in North Point in religious community, in real life, I'm not so sure that's the case. So I came across this really great article from Elena plot calabro And that was published in the Atlantic, and she says that Green's involvement per a source that Elena spoke to in north Point Church, her involvement tapered off after several years and Elena also noted that Brad Raffensberger, the Georgia Secretary of State who defied Donald Trump, he's very long been involved with North Point, and apparently no one ever really asks about him. So this guy who's strongly integrated into this evangelical community is someone who I most certainly remiss a little bit for partisan reasons saying this about a strong Republican, But he seems like a guy with a pretty stable moral center, with real principles, who's willing to stand up against basically attempted fascism, Whereas Marjorie Taylor Green gets involved in religious communities from the outside in order to gain a base that is psychologically primed to accept the kind of bullshit that she spews for cash.

Although also I think the human brain can allow you to not confront these obvious contradictions inside your head. I've met enough people to feel like she has some stories she tells herself where she's the hero and it's not a contradiction, and she really believes something, and it's just quite malleable what she believes.

Although also I think the human brain can allow you to not confront these obvious contradictions inside your head. I've met enough people to feel like she has some stories she tells herself where she's the hero and it's not a contradiction, and she really believes something, and it's just quite malleable what she believes.

I actually have another example that I think is interesting. Here, are you guys familiar with this hundant that works for the Blaze Media named alib Stucky. Sure, Okay, imagine a thirty one year old, very blonde, very white woman who was raised Southern Baptist and now works for the Blaze Media. Okay, it's very generic image, right, that is alib Stucky.

I actually have another example that I think is interesting. Here, are you guys familiar with this hundant that works for the Blaze Media named alib Stucky. Sure, Okay, imagine a thirty one year old, very blonde, very white woman who was raised Southern Baptist and now works for the Blaze Media. Okay, it's very generic image, right, that is alib Stucky.

You got it.

You got it.

Alib Stucky mostly promotes conspiracy theories that are very Christian identitarian focused on her show Relatable Again, produced by The Blaze. It's pretty clear to me a side note here that her viewership would not actually make enough money to support the kind of infrastructure that she has were it not for Glenn Beck's massive connections. So there's obviously serious funding behind this show. I do better than alib Stucky, and I am not wealthy like she is. But Ali grew up in Prestonwood Baptist Church, which is actually a church in Plano, Texas, where I know multiple people who go every week. I have an inn at this church. Essentially, I've been to this church, I've met the pastor, I know people who are there all the time. When I go visit family, people from the church are at their house hanging out. Sometimes I happen to know from those people that Alibi Stucky does not actually attend that church. She goes for Christmas and Easter and basically acts like a Baptist would say, like a good Catholic. Disparagingly here, but in September of this year, twenty twenty four, Ali was able to host a conference for four thousand attendees off of her YouTube channel that's much smaller than mine at Preston Wood Baptist Church. She was able to use the literal physical infrastructure that exists in the evangelical community to peddle right wing conspiracy theories and enrich herself even though she's not actually integrated into these communities very well. And unfortunately people at Preston Wood kind of let it happen.

Alib Stucky mostly promotes conspiracy theories that are very Christian identitarian focused on her show Relatable Again, produced by The Blaze. It's pretty clear to me a side note here that her viewership would not actually make enough money to support the kind of infrastructure that she has were it not for Glenn Beck's massive connections. So there's obviously serious funding behind this show. I do better than alib Stucky, and I am not wealthy like she is. But Ali grew up in Prestonwood Baptist Church, which is actually a church in Plano, Texas, where I know multiple people who go every week. I have an inn at this church. Essentially, I've been to this church, I've met the pastor, I know people who are there all the time. When I go visit family, people from the church are at their house hanging out. Sometimes I happen to know from those people that Alibi Stucky does not actually attend that church. She goes for Christmas and Easter and basically acts like a Baptist would say, like a good Catholic. Disparagingly here, but in September of this year, twenty twenty four, Ali was able to host a conference for four thousand attendees off of her YouTube channel that's much smaller than mine at Preston Wood Baptist Church. She was able to use the literal physical infrastructure that exists in the evangelical community to peddle right wing conspiracy theories and enrich herself even though she's not actually integrated into these communities very well. And unfortunately people at Preston Wood kind of let it happen.

I mean, you could obviously see the shared interest, and it sounds like there may be some third party that we don't know that's funding this and making this possible.

I mean, you could obviously see the shared interest, and it sounds like there may be some third party that we don't know that's funding this and making this possible.

I would say, I know about it. It's mostly the Wilkes brothers, but it's mostly Ferris Wilkes, actually the co founder of The Daily Wire. But that's a bit of an aside. Obviously, legacy media does have a big role here. If we look at things like Fox News and the want to be future of American conservative TV news Max and Oan and things like this. That plays a role. But I actually think that new media is probably a bigger part of this than something like Fox News. We have to realize that the Daily Wire, which is this conservative media group, actually as far as I know, has a larger viewer base than CNN. It has a larger viewer base than Fox News. And that's just this one media group with basically a handful of influencers who create you know, new media, create tiktoks, create YouTube videos, create podcasts, this sort of thing. But there are there's a whole litany. There are dozens hundreds thousands of essentially brand new, totally unconnected political pundits for the right that are able to receive money from similar sources to something like the Daily Wire. Yeah, Russians, so like Timpoole, this very popular new media, really big name conservative podcaster, was revealed to have been receiving something like four hundred thousand dollars a month from the Russian state. And he's not the only one. It seems like Dave Rubin, who has worked with the Daily Wire but isn't a part of the Daily Wire, also was receiving money regularly Osco.

I would say, I know about it. It's mostly the Wilkes brothers, but it's mostly Ferris Wilkes, actually the co founder of The Daily Wire. But that's a bit of an aside. Obviously, legacy media does have a big role here. If we look at things like Fox News and the want to be future of American conservative TV news Max and Oan and things like this. That plays a role. But I actually think that new media is probably a bigger part of this than something like Fox News. We have to realize that the Daily Wire, which is this conservative media group, actually as far as I know, has a larger viewer base than CNN. It has a larger viewer base than Fox News. And that's just this one media group with basically a handful of influencers who create you know, new media, create tiktoks, create YouTube videos, create podcasts, this sort of thing. But there are there's a whole litany. There are dozens hundreds thousands of essentially brand new, totally unconnected political pundits for the right that are able to receive money from similar sources to something like the Daily Wire. Yeah, Russians, so like Timpoole, this very popular new media, really big name conservative podcaster, was revealed to have been receiving something like four hundred thousand dollars a month from the Russian state. And he's not the only one. It seems like Dave Rubin, who has worked with the Daily Wire but isn't a part of the Daily Wire, also was receiving money regularly Osco.

We'll do it for half that. I'm just saying, I swear Moscow if you're listening.

We'll do it for half that. I'm just saying, I swear Moscow if you're listening.

And I think that if we consider the fact that new media might be driving this, maybe even more so than legacy media, we have to consider what happened when the printing press and the Protestant Revolution went hand in hand. There was a much more free market approach to religiosity, to ideology, and the things that won out, at least in the short term, were inflammatory ideas. It was moral panics, things that drove people to burn witches. The second most printed book as far as I know, after the Bible, after the printing press was invented, was actually the I think it's called the Malice Malificarum, which is basically a witch hunting and burning book. So I think what we're seeing now is a resurgence of what we might have called the Satanic panic back in the nineteen eighties, where there are a ton of new voices who are all competing in this extremely free market, in this kind of hyper capitalist ecosystem on YouTube and TikTok and Instagram and things like this, and they're all vying for the spotlight, which means that, Okay, we have to go with what works if we want to keep our careers. What works moral panic, inflammatory rhetoric. I see it in my own audience. When I have an inflammatory video where I am shitting on someone's ideas, even in the way that I think is not particularly overly inflammatory, I see that my audience responds more strongly to that than just an educational video. And I do think that just the fact that we have the new platforms that we have is enough of a factor to explain why we are having a new satanic panic which is much bigger, much more influential, and much more dangerous than the one we had in the nineteen eighties.

And I think that if we consider the fact that new media might be driving this, maybe even more so than legacy media, we have to consider what happened when the printing press and the Protestant Revolution went hand in hand. There was a much more free market approach to religiosity, to ideology, and the things that won out, at least in the short term, were inflammatory ideas. It was moral panics, things that drove people to burn witches. The second most printed book as far as I know, after the Bible, after the printing press was invented, was actually the I think it's called the Malice Malificarum, which is basically a witch hunting and burning book. So I think what we're seeing now is a resurgence of what we might have called the Satanic panic back in the nineteen eighties, where there are a ton of new voices who are all competing in this extremely free market, in this kind of hyper capitalist ecosystem on YouTube and TikTok and Instagram and things like this, and they're all vying for the spotlight, which means that, Okay, we have to go with what works if we want to keep our careers. What works moral panic, inflammatory rhetoric. I see it in my own audience. When I have an inflammatory video where I am shitting on someone's ideas, even in the way that I think is not particularly overly inflammatory, I see that my audience responds more strongly to that than just an educational video. And I do think that just the fact that we have the new platforms that we have is enough of a factor to explain why we are having a new satanic panic which is much bigger, much more influential, and much more dangerous than the one we had in the nineteen eighties.

All Right, Drew, this was amazing. Thank you for spending so much time.

All Right, Drew, this was amazing. Thank you for spending so much time.

Really, thank you for what you're doing. It's important work.

Really, thank you for what you're doing. It's important work.

Yeah, I appreciate the conversation. Guys.

Yeah, I appreciate the conversation. Guys.

I think that the work that you.

I think that the work that you.

Guys do is really valuable, and I've enjoyed listening and I'm happy to be a part of it.

Guys do is really valuable, and I've enjoyed listening and I'm happy to be a part of it.

Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Cipher, and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission Implausible it is a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures for iHeart podcasts.

Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Cipher, and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission Implausible it is a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures for iHeart podcasts.