Okay, So we have a woman who disappeared on September two one, we have nine eleven, we have a frantic search. Then what what do we know? In many ways, it's easier to highlight what we don't know. Was snayha alone when she was last seen alive in century twenty one the department store? Or was she with another woman? Why wasn't snak caught on camera anywhere other than the women's coat area, especially the shoe area where she made her final purchase. Where did Snah go after century? Did she really tell Sonya Mora, the shoe saleswoman, that she was going to Victoria's Secret and Jones, New York. Did Snah speak with either or both of her brothers the day she disappeared, If so, what did she say? Did ron Liebermann's husband sleep dial his cell phone from his landline at four oh five m on nine eleven? Does that explain the otherwise unexplainable call made from inside the apartment It is the woman who exited snay Has building at three am on nine eleven. Actually, snay Haa did say attend a party on September ten at a hotel next to the Twin towers. Did she go shopping on nine eleven in the mall underneath the day she visit Windows on the World on top of the North Tower. Was she just walking home when the attacks began, or none of the above? We don't know. Most of all, where did snay Has stay the night of the tenth? And as if this wasn't enough, let me throw a few new questions at you. First, how did snay House family know that she dropped off dry cleaning one after she left her apartment but before she got to Century One? Maybe credit card records, But wouldn't she have paid when she picked up her clothes, not when she dropped them off. So did her family interview someone at the dry cleaners? And if so, what did that person say about snay Has state of mind? What's she with someone? Then? What she caught on security footage there we don't know. Finally, in the Century one footage, say, does not appear to be wet, nor is she carrying an umbrella, even though it was storming outside. So did she walk to Century maybe during a pause in the rain. Did someone drop her off or did she take a cab? We don't know what happened to snay Ha And if the explanation really is so simple, why are there so many discrepancies and unanswered questions. I don't know, we don't know. No one knows, not the NYPD, not private investigators, not us, not yet for my Heart media, this is missing. On nine eleven, the story were you of one woman who vanished on the eve of history and my quest to find her? I'm your host, John Wallzac. On October one, NYPD Detective Richard Stark ends his investigation into snay house disappearance. There's nothing left to do, he says. Snayhouse family vehemently disagrees their private investigator can go on continues to hunt for clues. He finds few, if any. By coincidence, the same day Detective Stark ends his investigation, snay Haa was supposed to be in court facing charges of harassment, assault, and falsely reporting an incident, but because no one knows where she is, her case is adjourned again. Two thousand one ends. Then on January two thousand two, a judge issues a bench warrant for snay Has arrest. She's not showing up to court. She's a wall and since there's no official declaration of death, he has no choice, he says. One month later, the Associated Press runs a short article about snay haa quote. Police theorized she orchestrated her own disappearance to escape personal problems, but her family says this doesn't make sense. Snay was accomplished, graceful, and stable, they say. Ron says, quote, we had a great marriage. We were talking about having babies. D NYPD, however, says that snay House disappearance is unrelated to the World Trade Center. By August two thousand two, the initial list of thousands of people missing on nine eleven has been whittled down to just nine. Some victims were reported missing multiple times by different people, a genuine mistake. Then there were cases of fraud, but also, amazingly, at least seven people initially thought to have died on nine eleven are found alive. According to The New York Post, one is a homeless man named Albert Vaughan, last scene in the subway station beneath the World Trade Center in June two thousand two, nine months after the attacks. His family finds him in a psychiatric hospital. Another, George Simms, was thought to have been working as an informal street vendor, near the Trade Center on nine eleven. Like Vaughan Simms, it's found in a psychiatric hospital, diagnosed with amnesia and schizophrenia. On September eleven, two thousand two, the one year anniversary of the attacks, snay House family holds a small memorial service in Poughkeepsie, New York. Publicly, they've given up any hope that Snah will be found alive. Privately, though some of them still do not believe that she's dead. Nonetheless, they bury and earned with unidentified ashes collected from ground zero. One month later, snay House husband Ron files a claim with the nine eleven Victims Compensation Fund worth three to four million dollars, but because has not an official nine eleven victim, because there's no death certificate, it's denied. By this point, snay House family is starting to get ticked off. Publicly, they've settled on the hero narrative that Snah ran into the burning towers to help people and died as a result. They say they're not motivated by money. Instead, they're motivated by legacy. They want recognition for snay house bravery or and there's no way to say this nicely, her theoretical bravery Still, the City of New York declines to issue a death certificate stating that Snayhu died on nine eleven at the World Trade Center. On September two thousand three, Ron files a petition seeking a judicial declaration of death. Two months later, a lawyer named Ellen Winner is appointed as snay House Guardian ad litem. Basically, it's Ellen's role to fight for Snah on her behalf, to serve as her advocate and absentia. In turn, snay House family hires a lawyer named Mark Bogutin by Ron Lieberman, and he was this fiving spouse bringing this proceeding in servius court. And that's what I did. I filed the petition in Sagret's court to for the judicial declaration of death. We interviewed Bogutin at his Manhattan office, about twelve hundred feet northeast of the World Trade Center on January five, the day before the Capitol riot in d C. We sat in a conference room, faces covered because well COVID, it was gray and drizzly. Looking out the window, we could see Bogutin's old office, the one he had on nine eleven, only two blocks away near City Hall. That's where he was headed on nine eleven when the attacks began. It just got out of the subway Chambers and West Broadway and started to walk and I hear above me a plane or see a plane. Look at the plane and it's going right into the trade center. Boom floats, and I said, my god, it's it's awful. And all those people not awful. Then also people other stuff, and so I was a block away now I just moved the blockler still looking, and then I saw this explosion in the tower where I saw this big explosion of the flames coming out, and I thought it was maybe a bomb, or maybe it was something like eight attack mortar attacks. I didn't actually see the second plane, but you know, once I saw that, everybody once any everybody, so that everybody knew then it was terrorism. Obviously. Bocatin made his way into his office, which had a partial view of the Trade Center. All of a sudden, everyone's running, people would standing watching was running, running, running and knowing something happened. I happened, and then I heard we heard on the TV that the first one fell down, and so then I looked at my window second and was still there, and I left then the whole area was closed like a week or so. But I remember that, remember calling the court and they say, oh, yeah, we know, we know what happened. No, there's no court today, there's no court today. A few years later, Polcatin got a call from his friend Mark Freiberg, a fellow attorney. Mark Freiberg had represented Snea and Philip before she disappeared. So basically, Mark Friberry came to me and talking about the case. He said that Nia and Philip had lived across the street from the Trade Center, and he first told me, you know, she went missing on Stember eleven. They said, actually she went missing on September tenth, or was last sing on the tenth, which made the case obviously a little bit different. And m Mark Fribery had representing and Philip. She had a very small criminal case pending in the New York City Criminal Court and he represented her and that and that was pending on nine eleven, and then you know, she didn't she disappeared at nine eleven. And so what happened was initially, when whatever agency was putting together the list of the dead people died at the Trade Center, Nia and Philip's name was originally included on the list prepared by the government of those who died, not missing, but died at the trade Center. At the very beginning, snay How was listed as the nine eleven victim. After nine eleven, some public agency brought proceeding on behalf of everybody on the list, the two thousand, seven hundred people who are on the list and there are no body recovered. There was a proceeding brought in servius who are to have them judicially they are dead, and death certificates ordered issued by the services for those twenty seven people. And again with the Matthew RECEDINGSNA was included in that as a results of that proceeding in the fact show that everybody would be entitled to decertificate that they died at the trade center except for two people, and one of the two was and Philip, And there were two cases of the surrogates. Representatives said it's not it's not fraud, but we just need more evidence and we need more information before we feel comfortable issuing the death certificate. And again THEA was one of these two cases, and the other one Juan la Fuente. Another strange ace, strange enough that it's worth going into a bit of detail. Wan the front A was last seen alive around six am on nine eleven, on his way to a train station in Pokeepsie, New York, where he lived with his wife, Colette. At the time, Collette was the mayor of Poughkeepsie. Juan worked for City Bank at one eleven Wall Street in Manhattan. On nine eleven, he made it to Grand Central station, where he swiped his metro card at eight oh six am. Then, presumably he caught a subway to Wall Street and Broadway, eleven hundred feet southeast of the World Trade Center. Per court records, that trip typically took about sixteen minutes. Wan likely exited onto the street around eight thirty am, only sixteen minutes before American Airlines flight eleven the North Tower. However, like snay Ha, Land did not work at the Trade Center, he had no real reason to be there. In fact, Bickly after exiting onto the street, he would have walked the other way to his Wall Street office. So in order to say that he died on nine eleven at the Trade Center during the attacks, his family, like snay House family, had to answer why he was there in the first place. At first, they two chose the hero narrative. They said that One probably saw the attacks and ran into the towers to help people. As evidence, they cited the fact that he was a volunteer fire marshal. Later, though, a witness came forward and claimed that two or three days before nine eleven, he overheard One say that he planned to attend a meeting at the Trade Center. Okay, but which meeting best guests the Risk Waters Financial Technology Congress at Windows on the World on top of the North Tower on the morning of nine eleven. However, as with Snah, there's no proof that One was at the Trade Center, no evidence, just speculation as to the critical question of why he would have attended the conference why he died. His family ditched the hero narrative and instead cited frugality. They posited that he wanted free food. Wan was so frugal, according to The New York Times that quote he scavenged his morning paper from a dumpster. His frugality is why he died. According to his family, His wife Colette said, quote, it was a free breakfast. Now with the Flente, The cops did consider non nine eleven explanations for one suicide. One was undergoing psychiatric treatment for depression. Coincidentally, on nine eleven, he had an eight pm appointment with a psychiatrist, which obviously he missed. They also considered whether or not he ran off. Wan and Colette had an interesting marriage. According to The Times, once a month, Wants stayed away from home overnight in Manhattan in a quote shabby genteel tourist hotel. As to what one did at the hotel, a manager said, quote, we don't ask those questions. In addition, Juan's daughter, who said she had a good relationship with him, could not remember whether or not he called her on her birthday September, so, exercising caution, Pickepsie Detective Walter Horton considered everything. He told The Times quote, I don't want to find out six months from now that he's living in the Bahamas. But in the end a judge ruled that nine eleven was the answer, writing quote. The absentee was described in polite terms by his wife and Detective Horton as a frugal person. He would often take advantage of trade shows offering free refreshments, such as the one sponsored by Risk Waters. The morning of September eleven, it is tragically ironic that the absentees zest for thriftiness was the underlying factor which may have contributed in large part to his unexpected demise. Under the totality of the circumstances, there is no reasonable explanation for his disappearance other than death by an act of terrorism. Therefore, the court determines that Juan M. La Fuente died September eleven, two thousand one, and with that family, unlike snay Haas family, got a death certificate quickly. Mark Bogatin, the attorney hired by snay House husband Ron, later referenced the Plante case multiple times in court, arguing that in snay House case, like the Puante case, nine eleven was the obvious answer, just common sense. I mean, even without court being involved. It's submasing to me. And I was talking to somebody in the bar and they gave me the effects. It's just obviously that what else, what else could have happened? She died at the trade center. Why would you even consider anything else. It's like I said, you can't stay present. There's no alien induction here. But I'm pretty confident, you know, as a rationally human being, it's highly unlikely there was an alien induction, and it's more than highly unlikely there was some voul play. So other than I was the foul play involved in what al Qaida did. This is not what snay House family originally thought in the beginning. They wanted the NYPD to investigate everything, suicide, murder, everything, But by the time Mark Bogatin enters the picture late two thousand three early two thousand four, both snay House family and the NYPD, despite previous clashes, agreed that sna Ha did die on nine eleven at the Trade Center. Now though someone else is on the case, Ellen Winner, the Guardian ad vit um, the attorney appointed to represent sna in absentia, and basically she says, not so fast. She was appointed by the court to be represents. Nia's interesting, but she is. She investated the facts like I investated the facts, and basically her reports said, well, there's evidence that Nia led a dangerous lifestyle, that she went to bars and lesbian bars or bisexual bars, or I forget how they characterize it. I think they're called bars fremented by women, I think is what one of the reports referred to them as. And then she may have been unfaithful and she may have you know whatever. So she pointed to this dangerous in her mind, dangerous life stuff as an alternative explanation for Snia's disappearance. So basically the theory that oh, very possible she ran went into the bar, had the unfortunate circumstance of striking up an acquaintance with a person who turned out to be a crazed killer, and that's how she met her demise, demise to use the stupid term um demise, and that's the exclamations. So since she made since she had this dangerous lifestyle, went to bars and may have been lesbian, Well she didn't say she died because she was lesbian, but she did say because she frequented bars uh and may have been unfaithful and struck up acquaintances with strangers at these bars, that somehow, yeah, she had a dangerous lifestyle, so we can't say with any confidence, can't rule out foul play. And that was her take on it, and that actually was the conclusion reached by the surrogate, who was the judge, and the final decision on the surrogate was because that there was this dangerous lifestyle and she went to these bars and stuff and all these you know, these things in her background. Can't say that you can't rule out foul play and she that she had my mind, that's just that's crazy because for the reason I've already said, just crazy and my p D thought it was crazy. Uh, prior to the tactles it was crazy. And if you could go and say she she was killed by a crazy killer, you know, there has to be some evidence of that something. So the crriot court rules, yes, she's dead, she's she's gone. I think they set her day to death as three years after her disappearance. Maybe she didn't die at the Trade Center. And that was very upsetting experience. Well when originally when her initially when her name was removed from the list of people died at Trade Center, that was very very upsetting to the family. By the family, I mean her mother and father, I mean I mean Ron was not happy either. I uh met the parents later in the representation and the first time I met them, I said the mother and she said to me Steia was an American hero and meaning that she's one of the people died at the Trade Center. And it was the first time that it really really appreciated obviously from the beginning, understood what the death of what's child would mean does mean. Obviously appreciated that, but I didn't appreciate how the fact that she had died at the Trade Center and was included in this group of Americans who had basically been killed because they were Americans. That fact that circumstance gave her some solace and sort of eased the pain. And so her death was not with that certificance was part of a larger national tragedy. But she said she was an American heroine. Also, I guess she also believed that she would have been going to help as a physician Sona's death, that that her death was part of this larger national tragedy and this larger historical significance even apart from her being as a physician going to help people. Uh, it gave them some comfort and some solace, and that was all taken away from them when they ruled out, she's not she's not, she's not on the list. And then obviously were very disappointed when the trial judge ruled, oh, she died but not at the Trade Center. And at that point we took an appeal. We went to the Pelt Court. What did you think when you got the decision? Wasn't surprised, I gas, I thought it was ridiculous. It's just ridiculous. You know, as an attorney, you know you win cases, your loose cases, and and actually the first bless they had, the only bless they had. You said, of the cases that you guys an attorney or trial attorney, lawyering doesn't make a difference. You could have Perry Mason, Mason you're gonna have, you know, you have Johnny Conquer, definitely Bailey, or you're gonna have the guy who got out law school you know yesterday, not either. The cases doesn't matter. The cases are based on the facts. The facts beek for themselves. The case decides itself, you know, and then there's a temperate five temper. Any cases where lawyering does make a difference, where could go either way. And this was one of those cases, a complicated case, a legacy case. We had one or two conferences with the courts clerk before we actuid the hearing. They were very, very doubtful of our case. I just I was just surprised, I thought, to me, as a not even being an attorney, just as a common as a person walking around with I guess as a sentient. That's the right pronunciation, as senting a human being. What else you think one of the conclusion could you reach? I guess the only the big question which everybody had and that I would ask you is obviously, she says, somewhere the night of the tenth. So it would have been either with somebody she knew or with a stranger. She would stay somewhere Ranticly, she could have walked up the street all night. Possible, It's one of those. Yeah, she could have been with a stranger, could have been somebody she knew. She could have been walking literally walking up I mean I remember was in college ones. Actually I actually did that. I actually left the dorm at eight at night. I didn't come back to like five in the morning. She could have been doing that, walking around. But more probably she would have been with somebody. If if she was with somebody she knew, though, why would they not come forward? Obviously she wasn't with somebody she knew. Well, she wasn't with somebody that their family knew about. Okay, they know that she was her last um, last trace of her was a purchase he made a century one because it's a credit card or whatever store receipt. I think was like eight o'clock to night, eating something like that. That's the last actual trace, so they know she was attentual twenty one sometime that evening of the tenth. Uh where she was in between there and the morning of the eleven that, you're right, that's not it's not precisely known or determined. Okay, just getting using logic. Could she have been with somebody she knew, Uh, that's possible. But like you just said, while it was somebody she do, why did that person go forward? Okay? Could she have been with somebody she didn't know, that's possible. Could she have been with nobody like I, like I referred to my experience one night in college walking that's possible. I don't know, you know who knows? It's possible. She may have been walking around the street with a heavy shopping though I don't know. I forget how I mean, I forget the size or weight of the purchase. Okay, you're right. Maybe she wasn't walking the streets a bit. She probably spending on the you're right, h so many questions, so many unanswered questions. So much we don't know. But that's okay, because sometimes the best clues are in the questions, in what people hide, what they lie about, in what we don't know. Next time, on Missing on nine eleven, I just remember her confiding in me about not being happy in her current position, feeling pressured, whether there was pressure or not from her family, but feeling pressured to become a doctor, and then realizing she didn't really want to become. One homework this week one Ellen Winner the Guardian adl item decline interview requests. Ellen, if you're listening, I'd still love to speak with you. Two. Do you have any new information on the La Fente case? You can reach us by phone at one eight three three new Tips that's one eight three three six three nine eight four seven seven again one eight three three six three nine eight four seven seven, or you can reach us via email at tips at iHeart media dot com. That's tips, T I p s at iHeart media dot com. Ben Bowen is our executive producer. Paul Decan is our supervising producer. Chris Brown is our assistant producer. Seth Nicholas Johnson is our producer. Sam t Garden is our research assistant and I'm your host and executive producer, John Wallzac. Cover art by Pam Peacock Bluff One Day Judge voiced by Mike Smith of New Orleans. Special thanks to Tamika Campbell at iHeart and to Christoph Zapary in New Orleans. Also thank you to Mark Bogutin and a soop rock original theme music by ASoP Rock. Check out a soops website at ASoP rock dot com. You can find me on Twitter at at John Wallzack j O, n W A l c z a K. If you like this show, check out our first season, Missing in Alaska, about the nineteen seventy two disappearance of two congressmen Missing on nine eleven, is a co production of I Heeart Media and Greenford Media

Okay, So we have a woman who disappeared on September two one, we have nine eleven, we have a frantic search. Then what what do we know? In many ways, it's easier to highlight what we don't know. Was snayha alone when she was last seen alive in century twenty one the department store? Or was she with another woman? Why wasn't snak caught on camera anywhere other than the women's coat area, especially the shoe area where she made her final purchase. Where did Snah go after century? Did she really tell Sonya Mora, the shoe saleswoman, that she was going to Victoria's Secret and Jones, New York. Did Snah speak with either or both of her brothers the day she disappeared, If so, what did she say? Did ron Liebermann's husband sleep dial his cell phone from his landline at four oh five m on nine eleven? Does that explain the otherwise unexplainable call made from inside the apartment It is the woman who exited snay Has building at three am on nine eleven. Actually, snay Haa did say attend a party on September ten at a hotel next to the Twin towers. Did she go shopping on nine eleven in the mall underneath the day she visit Windows on the World on top of the North Tower. Was she just walking home when the attacks began, or none of the above? We don't know. Most of all, where did snay Has stay the night of the tenth? And as if this wasn't enough, let me throw a few new questions at you. First, how did snay House family know that she dropped off dry cleaning one after she left her apartment but before she got to Century One? Maybe credit card records, But wouldn't she have paid when she picked up her clothes, not when she dropped them off. So did her family interview someone at the dry cleaners? And if so, what did that person say about snay Has state of mind? What's she with someone? Then? What she caught on security footage there we don't know. Finally, in the Century one footage, say, does not appear to be wet, nor is she carrying an umbrella, even though it was storming outside. So did she walk to Century maybe during a pause in the rain. Did someone drop her off or did she take a cab? We don't know what happened to snay Ha And if the explanation really is so simple, why are there so many discrepancies and unanswered questions. I don't know, we don't know. No one knows, not the NYPD, not private investigators, not us, not yet for my Heart media, this is missing. On nine eleven, the story were you of one woman who vanished on the eve of history and my quest to find her? I'm your host, John Wallzac. On October one, NYPD Detective Richard Stark ends his investigation into snay house disappearance. There's nothing left to do, he says. Snayhouse family vehemently disagrees their private investigator can go on continues to hunt for clues. He finds few, if any. By coincidence, the same day Detective Stark ends his investigation, snay Haa was supposed to be in court facing charges of harassment, assault, and falsely reporting an incident, but because no one knows where she is, her case is adjourned again. Two thousand one ends. Then on January two thousand two, a judge issues a bench warrant for snay Has arrest. She's not showing up to court. She's a wall and since there's no official declaration of death, he has no choice, he says. One month later, the Associated Press runs a short article about snay haa quote. Police theorized she orchestrated her own disappearance to escape personal problems, but her family says this doesn't make sense. Snay was accomplished, graceful, and stable, they say. Ron says, quote, we had a great marriage. We were talking about having babies. D NYPD, however, says that snay House disappearance is unrelated to the World Trade Center. By August two thousand two, the initial list of thousands of people missing on nine eleven has been whittled down to just nine. Some victims were reported missing multiple times by different people, a genuine mistake. Then there were cases of fraud, but also, amazingly, at least seven people initially thought to have died on nine eleven are found alive. According to The New York Post, one is a homeless man named Albert Vaughan, last scene in the subway station beneath the World Trade Center in June two thousand two, nine months after the attacks. His family finds him in a psychiatric hospital. Another, George Simms, was thought to have been working as an informal street vendor, near the Trade Center on nine eleven. Like Vaughan Simms, it's found in a psychiatric hospital, diagnosed with amnesia and schizophrenia. On September eleven, two thousand two, the one year anniversary of the attacks, snay House family holds a small memorial service in Poughkeepsie, New York. Publicly, they've given up any hope that Snah will be found alive. Privately, though some of them still do not believe that she's dead. Nonetheless, they bury and earned with unidentified ashes collected from ground zero. One month later, snay House husband Ron files a claim with the nine eleven Victims Compensation Fund worth three to four million dollars, but because has not an official nine eleven victim, because there's no death certificate, it's denied. By this point, snay House family is starting to get ticked off. Publicly, they've settled on the hero narrative that Snah ran into the burning towers to help people and died as a result. They say they're not motivated by money. Instead, they're motivated by legacy. They want recognition for snay house bravery or and there's no way to say this nicely, her theoretical bravery Still, the City of New York declines to issue a death certificate stating that Snayhu died on nine eleven at the World Trade Center. On September two thousand three, Ron files a petition seeking a judicial declaration of death. Two months later, a lawyer named Ellen Winner is appointed as snay House Guardian ad litem. Basically, it's Ellen's role to fight for Snah on her behalf, to serve as her advocate and absentia. In turn, snay House family hires a lawyer named Mark Bogutin by Ron Lieberman, and he was this fiving spouse bringing this proceeding in servius court. And that's what I did. I filed the petition in Sagret's court to for the judicial declaration of death. We interviewed Bogutin at his Manhattan office, about twelve hundred feet northeast of the World Trade Center on January five, the day before the Capitol riot in d C. We sat in a conference room, faces covered because well COVID, it was gray and drizzly. Looking out the window, we could see Bogutin's old office, the one he had on nine eleven, only two blocks away near City Hall. That's where he was headed on nine eleven when the attacks began. It just got out of the subway Chambers and West Broadway and started to walk and I hear above me a plane or see a plane. Look at the plane and it's going right into the trade center. Boom floats, and I said, my god, it's it's awful. And all those people not awful. Then also people other stuff, and so I was a block away now I just moved the blockler still looking, and then I saw this explosion in the tower where I saw this big explosion of the flames coming out, and I thought it was maybe a bomb, or maybe it was something like eight attack mortar attacks. I didn't actually see the second plane, but you know, once I saw that, everybody once any everybody, so that everybody knew then it was terrorism. Obviously. Bocatin made his way into his office, which had a partial view of the Trade Center. All of a sudden, everyone's running, people would standing watching was running, running, running and knowing something happened. I happened, and then I heard we heard on the TV that the first one fell down, and so then I looked at my window second and was still there, and I left then the whole area was closed like a week or so. But I remember that, remember calling the court and they say, oh, yeah, we know, we know what happened. No, there's no court today, there's no court today. A few years later, Polcatin got a call from his friend Mark Freiberg, a fellow attorney. Mark Freiberg had represented Snea and Philip before she disappeared. So basically, Mark Friberry came to me and talking about the case. He said that Nia and Philip had lived across the street from the Trade Center, and he first told me, you know, she went missing on Stember eleven. They said, actually she went missing on September tenth, or was last sing on the tenth, which made the case obviously a little bit different. And m Mark Fribery had representing and Philip. She had a very small criminal case pending in the New York City Criminal Court and he represented her and that and that was pending on nine eleven, and then you know, she didn't she disappeared at nine eleven. And so what happened was initially, when whatever agency was putting together the list of the dead people died at the Trade Center, Nia and Philip's name was originally included on the list prepared by the government of those who died, not missing, but died at the trade Center. At the very beginning, snay How was listed as the nine eleven victim. After nine eleven, some public agency brought proceeding on behalf of everybody on the list, the two thousand, seven hundred people who are on the list and there are no body recovered. There was a proceeding brought in servius who are to have them judicially they are dead, and death certificates ordered issued by the services for those twenty seven people. And again with the Matthew RECEDINGSNA was included in that as a results of that proceeding in the fact show that everybody would be entitled to decertificate that they died at the trade center except for two people, and one of the two was and Philip, And there were two cases of the surrogates. Representatives said it's not it's not fraud, but we just need more evidence and we need more information before we feel comfortable issuing the death certificate. And again THEA was one of these two cases, and the other one Juan la Fuente. Another strange ace, strange enough that it's worth going into a bit of detail. Wan the front A was last seen alive around six am on nine eleven, on his way to a train station in Pokeepsie, New York, where he lived with his wife, Colette. At the time, Collette was the mayor of Poughkeepsie. Juan worked for City Bank at one eleven Wall Street in Manhattan. On nine eleven, he made it to Grand Central station, where he swiped his metro card at eight oh six am. Then, presumably he caught a subway to Wall Street and Broadway, eleven hundred feet southeast of the World Trade Center. Per court records, that trip typically took about sixteen minutes. Wan likely exited onto the street around eight thirty am, only sixteen minutes before American Airlines flight eleven the North Tower. However, like snay Ha, Land did not work at the Trade Center, he had no real reason to be there. In fact, Bickly after exiting onto the street, he would have walked the other way to his Wall Street office. So in order to say that he died on nine eleven at the Trade Center during the attacks, his family, like snay House family, had to answer why he was there in the first place. At first, they two chose the hero narrative. They said that One probably saw the attacks and ran into the towers to help people. As evidence, they cited the fact that he was a volunteer fire marshal. Later, though, a witness came forward and claimed that two or three days before nine eleven, he overheard One say that he planned to attend a meeting at the Trade Center. Okay, but which meeting best guests the Risk Waters Financial Technology Congress at Windows on the World on top of the North Tower on the morning of nine eleven. However, as with Snah, there's no proof that One was at the Trade Center, no evidence, just speculation as to the critical question of why he would have attended the conference why he died. His family ditched the hero narrative and instead cited frugality. They posited that he wanted free food. Wan was so frugal, according to The New York Times that quote he scavenged his morning paper from a dumpster. His frugality is why he died. According to his family, His wife Colette said, quote, it was a free breakfast. Now with the Flente, The cops did consider non nine eleven explanations for one suicide. One was undergoing psychiatric treatment for depression. Coincidentally, on nine eleven, he had an eight pm appointment with a psychiatrist, which obviously he missed. They also considered whether or not he ran off. Wan and Colette had an interesting marriage. According to The Times, once a month, Wants stayed away from home overnight in Manhattan in a quote shabby genteel tourist hotel. As to what one did at the hotel, a manager said, quote, we don't ask those questions. In addition, Juan's daughter, who said she had a good relationship with him, could not remember whether or not he called her on her birthday September, so, exercising caution, Pickepsie Detective Walter Horton considered everything. He told The Times quote, I don't want to find out six months from now that he's living in the Bahamas. But in the end a judge ruled that nine eleven was the answer, writing quote. The absentee was described in polite terms by his wife and Detective Horton as a frugal person. He would often take advantage of trade shows offering free refreshments, such as the one sponsored by Risk Waters. The morning of September eleven, it is tragically ironic that the absentees zest for thriftiness was the underlying factor which may have contributed in large part to his unexpected demise. Under the totality of the circumstances, there is no reasonable explanation for his disappearance other than death by an act of terrorism. Therefore, the court determines that Juan M. La Fuente died September eleven, two thousand one, and with that family, unlike snay Haas family, got a death certificate quickly. Mark Bogatin, the attorney hired by snay House husband Ron, later referenced the Plante case multiple times in court, arguing that in snay House case, like the Puante case, nine eleven was the obvious answer, just common sense. I mean, even without court being involved. It's submasing to me. And I was talking to somebody in the bar and they gave me the effects. It's just obviously that what else, what else could have happened? She died at the trade center. Why would you even consider anything else. It's like I said, you can't stay present. There's no alien induction here. But I'm pretty confident, you know, as a rationally human being, it's highly unlikely there was an alien induction, and it's more than highly unlikely there was some voul play. So other than I was the foul play involved in what al Qaida did. This is not what snay House family originally thought in the beginning. They wanted the NYPD to investigate everything, suicide, murder, everything, But by the time Mark Bogatin enters the picture late two thousand three early two thousand four, both snay House family and the NYPD, despite previous clashes, agreed that sna Ha did die on nine eleven at the Trade Center. Now though someone else is on the case, Ellen Winner, the Guardian ad vit um, the attorney appointed to represent sna in absentia, and basically she says, not so fast. She was appointed by the court to be represents. Nia's interesting, but she is. She investated the facts like I investated the facts, and basically her reports said, well, there's evidence that Nia led a dangerous lifestyle, that she went to bars and lesbian bars or bisexual bars, or I forget how they characterize it. I think they're called bars fremented by women, I think is what one of the reports referred to them as. And then she may have been unfaithful and she may have you know whatever. So she pointed to this dangerous in her mind, dangerous life stuff as an alternative explanation for Snia's disappearance. So basically the theory that oh, very possible she ran went into the bar, had the unfortunate circumstance of striking up an acquaintance with a person who turned out to be a crazed killer, and that's how she met her demise, demise to use the stupid term um demise, and that's the exclamations. So since she made since she had this dangerous lifestyle, went to bars and may have been lesbian, Well she didn't say she died because she was lesbian, but she did say because she frequented bars uh and may have been unfaithful and struck up acquaintances with strangers at these bars, that somehow, yeah, she had a dangerous lifestyle, so we can't say with any confidence, can't rule out foul play. And that was her take on it, and that actually was the conclusion reached by the surrogate, who was the judge, and the final decision on the surrogate was because that there was this dangerous lifestyle and she went to these bars and stuff and all these you know, these things in her background. Can't say that you can't rule out foul play and she that she had my mind, that's just that's crazy because for the reason I've already said, just crazy and my p D thought it was crazy. Uh, prior to the tactles it was crazy. And if you could go and say she she was killed by a crazy killer, you know, there has to be some evidence of that something. So the crriot court rules, yes, she's dead, she's she's gone. I think they set her day to death as three years after her disappearance. Maybe she didn't die at the Trade Center. And that was very upsetting experience. Well when originally when her initially when her name was removed from the list of people died at Trade Center, that was very very upsetting to the family. By the family, I mean her mother and father, I mean I mean Ron was not happy either. I uh met the parents later in the representation and the first time I met them, I said the mother and she said to me Steia was an American hero and meaning that she's one of the people died at the Trade Center. And it was the first time that it really really appreciated obviously from the beginning, understood what the death of what's child would mean does mean. Obviously appreciated that, but I didn't appreciate how the fact that she had died at the Trade Center and was included in this group of Americans who had basically been killed because they were Americans. That fact that circumstance gave her some solace and sort of eased the pain. And so her death was not with that certificance was part of a larger national tragedy. But she said she was an American heroine. Also, I guess she also believed that she would have been going to help as a physician Sona's death, that that her death was part of this larger national tragedy and this larger historical significance even apart from her being as a physician going to help people. Uh, it gave them some comfort and some solace, and that was all taken away from them when they ruled out, she's not she's not, she's not on the list. And then obviously were very disappointed when the trial judge ruled, oh, she died but not at the Trade Center. And at that point we took an appeal. We went to the Pelt Court. What did you think when you got the decision? Wasn't surprised, I gas, I thought it was ridiculous. It's just ridiculous. You know, as an attorney, you know you win cases, your loose cases, and and actually the first bless they had, the only bless they had. You said, of the cases that you guys an attorney or trial attorney, lawyering doesn't make a difference. You could have Perry Mason, Mason you're gonna have, you know, you have Johnny Conquer, definitely Bailey, or you're gonna have the guy who got out law school you know yesterday, not either. The cases doesn't matter. The cases are based on the facts. The facts beek for themselves. The case decides itself, you know, and then there's a temperate five temper. Any cases where lawyering does make a difference, where could go either way. And this was one of those cases, a complicated case, a legacy case. We had one or two conferences with the courts clerk before we actuid the hearing. They were very, very doubtful of our case. I just I was just surprised, I thought, to me, as a not even being an attorney, just as a common as a person walking around with I guess as a sentient. That's the right pronunciation, as senting a human being. What else you think one of the conclusion could you reach? I guess the only the big question which everybody had and that I would ask you is obviously, she says, somewhere the night of the tenth. So it would have been either with somebody she knew or with a stranger. She would stay somewhere Ranticly, she could have walked up the street all night. Possible, It's one of those. Yeah, she could have been with a stranger, could have been somebody she knew. She could have been walking literally walking up I mean I remember was in college ones. Actually I actually did that. I actually left the dorm at eight at night. I didn't come back to like five in the morning. She could have been doing that, walking around. But more probably she would have been with somebody. If if she was with somebody she knew, though, why would they not come forward? Obviously she wasn't with somebody she knew. Well, she wasn't with somebody that their family knew about. Okay, they know that she was her last um, last trace of her was a purchase he made a century one because it's a credit card or whatever store receipt. I think was like eight o'clock to night, eating something like that. That's the last actual trace, so they know she was attentual twenty one sometime that evening of the tenth. Uh where she was in between there and the morning of the eleven that, you're right, that's not it's not precisely known or determined. Okay, just getting using logic. Could she have been with somebody she knew, Uh, that's possible. But like you just said, while it was somebody she do, why did that person go forward? Okay? Could she have been with somebody she didn't know, that's possible. Could she have been with nobody like I, like I referred to my experience one night in college walking that's possible. I don't know, you know who knows? It's possible. She may have been walking around the street with a heavy shopping though I don't know. I forget how I mean, I forget the size or weight of the purchase. Okay, you're right. Maybe she wasn't walking the streets a bit. She probably spending on the you're right, h so many questions, so many unanswered questions. So much we don't know. But that's okay, because sometimes the best clues are in the questions, in what people hide, what they lie about, in what we don't know. Next time, on Missing on nine eleven, I just remember her confiding in me about not being happy in her current position, feeling pressured, whether there was pressure or not from her family, but feeling pressured to become a doctor, and then realizing she didn't really want to become. One homework this week one Ellen Winner the Guardian adl item decline interview requests. Ellen, if you're listening, I'd still love to speak with you. Two. Do you have any new information on the La Fente case? You can reach us by phone at one eight three three new Tips that's one eight three three six three nine eight four seven seven again one eight three three six three nine eight four seven seven, or you can reach us via email at tips at iHeart media dot com. That's tips, T I p s at iHeart media dot com. Ben Bowen is our executive producer. Paul Decan is our supervising producer. Chris Brown is our assistant producer. Seth Nicholas Johnson is our producer. Sam t Garden is our research assistant and I'm your host and executive producer, John Wallzac. Cover art by Pam Peacock Bluff One Day Judge voiced by Mike Smith of New Orleans. Special thanks to Tamika Campbell at iHeart and to Christoph Zapary in New Orleans. Also thank you to Mark Bogutin and a soop rock original theme music by ASoP Rock. Check out a soops website at ASoP rock dot com. You can find me on Twitter at at John Wallzack j O, n W A l c z a K. If you like this show, check out our first season, Missing in Alaska, about the nineteen seventy two disappearance of two congressmen Missing on nine eleven, is a co production of I Heeart Media and Greenford Media