As fears about artificial intelligence dominate the headlines, Craig W. Stanfill’s science-fiction thriller Carbon Zero is arriving at a remarkably timely moment. The longtime AI pioneer joins Mike to explore the frightening possibilities behind a rogue AI, from taking down the power grid to unleashing cyberattacks, while explaining why the technology is already too widespread to simply put back in the bottle. Stanfill draws on decades of experience in artificial intelligence to separate legitimate risks from the panic, arguing that the real challenge is figuring out how to use AI to defend against the threats AI itself creates. Their conversation gets into the increasingly human behavior of today’s AI, the dangers of giving powerful systems goals they may pursue in unexpected ways, and why cybersecurity may ultimately require AI to fight AI.