Evening. Everyone, Welcome to Midnight Chats. I'm Greg. I'm here with Stuart and Stu. Now, I think I could very easily say to you, this week's podcast is a cynical move to revisit an interview from the defining artist of twenty twenty four. Now that this artist and our podcast have much bigger audiences. What would you say to that scandalous accusation. I don't think I could argue with it.

Evening. Everyone, Welcome to Midnight Chats. I'm Greg. I'm here with Stuart and Stu. Now, I think I could very easily say to you, this week's podcast is a cynical move to revisit an interview from the defining artist of twenty twenty four. Now that this artist and our podcast have much bigger audiences. What would you say to that scandalous accusation. I don't think I could argue with it.

I think we need to just be upfront with our listeners and say we're bringing you an old interview right now.

I think we need to just be upfront with our listeners and say we're bringing you an old interview right now.

But that old interview is with Charlie XCX, currently the world's biggest artists.

But that old interview is with Charlie XCX, currently the world's biggest artists.

Exactly, and she did come on the podcast years ago in twenty eighteen. We'd love to have her back on. I'm sure Charlie's listening. Charlie, You're welcome anytime. Actually, let me just defend our cynical move. I think this is an interesting exercise. We've never played an old interview before, but this one is so far back that you know, people probably aren't aware it's there. You'd have to troll through the timeline forever to get to it. And as you say, it's with an artist who's having a crazy year. I cringed at the idea of listening back to this because it was so long ago, but I was pleasantly surprised at the finished product.

Exactly, and she did come on the podcast years ago in twenty eighteen. We'd love to have her back on. I'm sure Charlie's listening. Charlie, You're welcome anytime. Actually, let me just defend our cynical move. I think this is an interesting exercise. We've never played an old interview before, but this one is so far back that you know, people probably aren't aware it's there. You'd have to troll through the timeline forever to get to it. And as you say, it's with an artist who's having a crazy year. I cringed at the idea of listening back to this because it was so long ago, but I was pleasantly surprised at the finished product.

I think first and most important question, where is all of your Brat merch? By the way, you know you're not wearing the T shirt and your hat and your sort of temporary tattoos and stuff.

I think first and most important question, where is all of your Brat merch? By the way, you know you're not wearing the T shirt and your hat and your sort of temporary tattoos and stuff.

I've got a room for it. Look like that room in Alan Partridge. Excellent. I'm the biggest fan. I've got the tattoo on my chest.

I've got a room for it. Look like that room in Alan Partridge. Excellent. I'm the biggest fan. I've got the tattoo on my chest.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Can't see it here, but yeah, yeah it is there. Obviously. Like by this point, Bratt has transcended being an album, hasn't it. It's like turned into this like seemingly unstoppable cultural phenomenon from the Apple Dance, which you've obviously done a version of. I know that on TikTok to Kamela Harris getting the nods to be the presidential candidate for the Democrats, and then like changing all of our social channels to like the Brat a setting all the kind of like artwork and everything else. So yeah, we thought it'd be fun to revisit this this time that Charlie XCX came on Midnight Chats. I'm sure she is still thinking about it, as you say.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Can't see it here, but yeah, yeah it is there. Obviously. Like by this point, Bratt has transcended being an album, hasn't it. It's like turned into this like seemingly unstoppable cultural phenomenon from the Apple Dance, which you've obviously done a version of. I know that on TikTok to Kamela Harris getting the nods to be the presidential candidate for the Democrats, and then like changing all of our social channels to like the Brat a setting all the kind of like artwork and everything else. So yeah, we thought it'd be fun to revisit this this time that Charlie XCX came on Midnight Chats. I'm sure she is still thinking about it, as you say.

This is a career highlight. One thing I would just ask you, Craig, do you think do you think we're bratted out? Do you think it's I know everyone was quick to say Brad Summer's over, yeah quickly. I there are lots of opinion pieces about that, but do you think generally speaking, because you know we are, we are bringing this out and we're talking a bit, We're talking about this episode on this podcast. We're going to play the episode. We're going to come back at the end and talk a little bit about our findings on it. But are we in danger of just people being like, for fux sake, not brat again. I'm over it. I'm sick of it because I feel like maybe we are getting to that point and maybe we have passed. Maybe there's just a bad decision.

This is a career highlight. One thing I would just ask you, Craig, do you think do you think we're bratted out? Do you think it's I know everyone was quick to say Brad Summer's over, yeah quickly. I there are lots of opinion pieces about that, but do you think generally speaking, because you know we are, we are bringing this out and we're talking a bit, We're talking about this episode on this podcast. We're going to play the episode. We're going to come back at the end and talk a little bit about our findings on it. But are we in danger of just people being like, for fux sake, not brat again. I'm over it. I'm sick of it because I feel like maybe we are getting to that point and maybe we have passed. Maybe there's just a bad decision.

What you're saying, we're sharing our Charlie XCX interview when it's all about to disappear, Well maybe, but like, yeah, we aren't we at the start of bratt Autumn. Like Charlie XX said, there's going to be like another remix she's just had the biggest song off this whole campaign, the guest remix with Billie Eilisch. Obviously that's like been the biggest, sort of highest charting. So she's going to be thinking of ideas to try and keep it going, right, She's not going to just kind of like let it, let it fizzle off. Yeah, So I don't know. Yeah, I would say that like Bratt's summer is definitely over. But what's the next for the Bratt era? I'm not quite sure? Can you, like, before we play this out too, can you remind us so like set the scene, like when was it that you went to go and meet Charlie, Like where was it and what was happening in her world at this point?

What you're saying, we're sharing our Charlie XCX interview when it's all about to disappear, Well maybe, but like, yeah, we aren't we at the start of bratt Autumn. Like Charlie XX said, there's going to be like another remix she's just had the biggest song off this whole campaign, the guest remix with Billie Eilisch. Obviously that's like been the biggest, sort of highest charting. So she's going to be thinking of ideas to try and keep it going, right, She's not going to just kind of like let it, let it fizzle off. Yeah, So I don't know. Yeah, I would say that like Bratt's summer is definitely over. But what's the next for the Bratt era? I'm not quite sure? Can you, like, before we play this out too, can you remind us so like set the scene, like when was it that you went to go and meet Charlie, Like where was it and what was happening in her world at this point?

So this is in twenty eighteen, around October early November time. It was that it was at her record label, which is Warner Records. I think it was at Atlantic at their office, and it was quite stress. That's what I remember it. This is why I didn't want to listen back to it, because when we do this podcast, we say to the artists and to their teams that we need about an hour really to talk to them, to get into it and to be able to edit it into something where we're not losing too much of it, and that was sort of agreed, and I got there. It was quite early in the morning. That's quite rare as well. We don't tend to do these first thing in the morning. But I got to Atlantic Records, a huge, sort of glossy mainstream label.

So this is in twenty eighteen, around October early November time. It was that it was at her record label, which is Warner Records. I think it was at Atlantic at their office, and it was quite stress. That's what I remember it. This is why I didn't want to listen back to it, because when we do this podcast, we say to the artists and to their teams that we need about an hour really to talk to them, to get into it and to be able to edit it into something where we're not losing too much of it, and that was sort of agreed, and I got there. It was quite early in the morning. That's quite rare as well. We don't tend to do these first thing in the morning. But I got to Atlantic Records, a huge, sort of glossy mainstream label.

Big glass, funky building.

Big glass, funky building.

Yeah, lots of TVs in the walls and ed sheer and post us.

Yeah, lots of TVs in the walls and ed sheer and post us.

Up a bit like your bedroom.

Up a bit like your bedroom.

Yeah, it's already quite you know, an alien and intense environment anyway, But she had all of her team around her. She was in between albums. Her self titled album wasn't going to come out for another year yet, but she had just released a song called nineteen ninety nine. We were being crushed on time because she was about to go to Radio one to do an interview on whatever the show is after the breakfast show, I guess. So it was all a little bit rushed and there were a lot of people buzzing around. Normally, when we do these interviews, it's normally just us and the artist, isn't it. They come to us or we go to them, and it's just us in a room, and that way we can just get into it. There's no pressure, no one's feeling a bit self conscious or weird. And I think Charlie is probably used to loads of her team being in the room when she gives interviews, but I wasn't. And we were sat opposite each other in a very corporate but trendy room that made this room in a big class office look a bit like a club, like a lounge, just like a place. It's I think it was called the artist's lounge, right, So it's where artists when they come in they can play on a PlayStation and they's so and it was in there we were sat opposite each other, and I distinctly remember I presume it was her manager at the time. I'm not sure if she's got the same manager. I'm not all lovely people, I should say that, but her manager was sat over her shoulder in my eyeline. So I'm talking to I'm talking to her, and behind is a dude sat there sort of looking at me, sometimes looking away on his phone.

Yeah, it's already quite you know, an alien and intense environment anyway, But she had all of her team around her. She was in between albums. Her self titled album wasn't going to come out for another year yet, but she had just released a song called nineteen ninety nine. We were being crushed on time because she was about to go to Radio one to do an interview on whatever the show is after the breakfast show, I guess. So it was all a little bit rushed and there were a lot of people buzzing around. Normally, when we do these interviews, it's normally just us and the artist, isn't it. They come to us or we go to them, and it's just us in a room, and that way we can just get into it. There's no pressure, no one's feeling a bit self conscious or weird. And I think Charlie is probably used to loads of her team being in the room when she gives interviews, but I wasn't. And we were sat opposite each other in a very corporate but trendy room that made this room in a big class office look a bit like a club, like a lounge, just like a place. It's I think it was called the artist's lounge, right, So it's where artists when they come in they can play on a PlayStation and they's so and it was in there we were sat opposite each other, and I distinctly remember I presume it was her manager at the time. I'm not sure if she's got the same manager. I'm not all lovely people, I should say that, but her manager was sat over her shoulder in my eyeline. So I'm talking to I'm talking to her, and behind is a dude sat there sort of looking at me, sometimes looking away on his phone.

So it was weird. It was weird, okay, So, and what did you make of Charlie? More importantly, that's where you were and when it happened. But what did he make of it?

So it was weird. It was weird, okay, So, and what did you make of Charlie? More importantly, that's where you were and when it happened. But what did he make of it?

I think she's quite intimidating. You know, she's very cool, Like, she's an extremely cool person. She's a fair bit younger than me. She's had ten years younger than me, so I was probably aware of that. I was getting the feeling of being like, oh, you don't want to be doing this, you don't want to be talking to me. But then when I listened back to it, I realized that, actually she doesn't sound as bored as I thought she was during it.

I think she's quite intimidating. You know, she's very cool, Like, she's an extremely cool person. She's a fair bit younger than me. She's had ten years younger than me, so I was probably aware of that. I was getting the feeling of being like, oh, you don't want to be doing this, you don't want to be talking to me. But then when I listened back to it, I realized that, actually she doesn't sound as bored as I thought she was during it.

Well, listen, I think there's a lot of interesting stuff on this. In reflection, like you said, we dug this out of the archive, and we before we even decided to share it, we were like, let's go back and listen to it, figure out, you know, what was going on there. And I actually think it's really interesting and quite revealing. So we're going to talk about that afterwards. But here it is. This is Stuart Stubbs in conversation with Charlie XCX, with a note saying this was from twenty eighteen.

Well, listen, I think there's a lot of interesting stuff on this. In reflection, like you said, we dug this out of the archive, and we before we even decided to share it, we were like, let's go back and listen to it, figure out, you know, what was going on there. And I actually think it's really interesting and quite revealing. So we're going to talk about that afterwards. But here it is. This is Stuart Stubbs in conversation with Charlie XCX, with a note saying this was from twenty eighteen.

I live half in la half in London, but I've been over in the States a lot, just because I've been on this tour with Taylor swift, sure, and we were doing the US leg so it's easier for me to be based out of the US right now. And when I write, I tend to write a lot in La, right, Yeah.

I live half in la half in London, but I've been over in the States a lot, just because I've been on this tour with Taylor swift, sure, and we were doing the US leg so it's easier for me to be based out of the US right now. And when I write, I tend to write a lot in La, right, Yeah.

What side of the city do you live in there?

What side of the city do you live in there?

I live in Beechwood Canyon, which is sort of right underneath the Hollywood sign, so nice. Yeah, it's very green around there, and you can actually walk a lot and you can do hiking, and there's quite a lot of.

I live in Beechwood Canyon, which is sort of right underneath the Hollywood sign, so nice. Yeah, it's very green around there, and you can actually walk a lot and you can do hiking, and there's quite a lot of.

Europeans who live up there, which is nice, a lot of Swedes.

Europeans who live up there, which is nice, a lot of Swedes.

I was in La this summer on holiday. I stayed in Silver Lake.

I was in La this summer on holiday. I stayed in Silver Lake.

Very cool.

Very cool.

But that's the cool side, isn't it the hipside?

But that's the cool side, isn't it the hipside?

Yeah?

Yeah?

But we I'd never been to Beverly Hills, so we drove around Beverly Hills for the first time. What did you think it's weird? Right?

But we I'd never been to Beverly Hills, so we drove around Beverly Hills for the first time. What did you think it's weird? Right?

Yeah?

Yeah?

I mean I don't go there that often, but yeah, it is a bit odd.

I mean I don't go there that often, but yeah, it is a bit odd.

I felt it was. It's kind of creepy because there's no pavements, right, because they didn't want anyone there, right, No, So it's really I'd always wanted to go and see what it was like, and it actually made me think I wouldn't want to live here. If I could live anywhere, I don't think I would live there.

I felt it was. It's kind of creepy because there's no pavements, right, because they didn't want anyone there, right, No, So it's really I'd always wanted to go and see what it was like, and it actually made me think I wouldn't want to live here. If I could live anywhere, I don't think I would live there.

Yeah, I mean, I think the thing with la is like it's a great city when you know a lot of people and when you have a lot of friends there and when you're actually like doing stuff. But I think if you're not doing anything and you don't really know anyone, it can be quite isolating and lonely, just because you can't really walk around places. There isn't really that much like history there. I mean, there's a lot of Hollywood history and a lot of very interesting and fun things have happened there, but in terms of like, you know, you're not like walking around and seeing the sights because you can't really walk, and also there aren't that many sites, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, I mean, I think the thing with la is like it's a great city when you know a lot of people and when you have a lot of friends there and when you're actually like doing stuff. But I think if you're not doing anything and you don't really know anyone, it can be quite isolating and lonely, just because you can't really walk around places. There isn't really that much like history there. I mean, there's a lot of Hollywood history and a lot of very interesting and fun things have happened there, but in terms of like, you know, you're not like walking around and seeing the sights because you can't really walk, and also there aren't that many sites, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, sure, That's what I felt was weird about. What I thought was strange about Beverly Hills and bell Air was how isolated those people must fill in their massive houses because they probably.

Yeah, yeah, sure, That's what I felt was weird about. What I thought was strange about Beverly Hills and bell Air was how isolated those people must fill in their massive houses because they probably.

Don't care though, because they're like, oh, I'm in my nice house.

Don't care though, because they're like, oh, I'm in my nice house.

Yeah I suppose.

Yeah I suppose.

But I think that it's a city where you can really make what you want of it. Like when I started going there when I was sixteen to record, and I was so lonely when I went there because I couldn't party. There was no uber, so everything was such a nightmare to get to and I didn't really know anyone. And now I really really enjoy it there, just because I've built up such an amazing group of friends and most of them work in music, so it's like very collaborative and really fun.

But I think that it's a city where you can really make what you want of it. Like when I started going there when I was sixteen to record, and I was so lonely when I went there because I couldn't party. There was no uber, so everything was such a nightmare to get to and I didn't really know anyone. And now I really really enjoy it there, just because I've built up such an amazing group of friends and most of them work in music, so it's like very collaborative and really fun.

And I found like a nice little.

And I found like a nice little.

Kind of space there that feels really homely and creative. And yeah, I think it's really a place where it's like you can make it into something really amazing if you like avoid all the kind of scary scary like Hollywood hell holes, you know.

Kind of space there that feels really homely and creative. And yeah, I think it's really a place where it's like you can make it into something really amazing if you like avoid all the kind of scary scary like Hollywood hell holes, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, What do you miss from each place? When you're in LA What do you miss about London? And when you're when you're here, what do you miss about La?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, What do you miss from each place? When you're in LA What do you miss about London? And when you're when you're here, what do you miss about La?

When I'm here, I definitely miss being able to go into a restaurant and literally order anything.

When I'm here, I definitely miss being able to go into a restaurant and literally order anything.

Even if it's off menu.

Even if it's off menu.

Yeah. I mean, I think the best thing about America is you can, and especially La is you can go into a restaurant and you can say, can I get the burger please? But can I get it with avocado? With bacon. Can I get it with no bun? Can I sub the fries for a salad? And can I get like you just changed the whole thing.

Yeah. I mean, I think the best thing about America is you can, and especially La is you can go into a restaurant and you can say, can I get the burger please? But can I get it with avocado? With bacon. Can I get it with no bun? Can I sub the fries for a salad? And can I get like you just changed the whole thing.

Did it take your while to get used to that?

Did it take your while to get used to that?

Because no, because I'm greedy. I was like in there straight.

Because no, because I'm greedy. I was like in there straight.

Away everything the kind of the Brita and me wouldn't do that, do you know what I mean? Too polite even if I'm like allergic to nuts and it comes to can I just take the hit on it?

Away everything the kind of the Brita and me wouldn't do that, do you know what I mean? Too polite even if I'm like allergic to nuts and it comes to can I just take the hit on it?

Yeah?

Yeah?

No, I just got embraced. I didn't realize it was actually a real thing. We can do that.

No, I just got embraced. I didn't realize it was actually a real thing. We can do that.

It's really easy to do. So I missed that.

It's really easy to do. So I missed that.

And I also, this is weird, This is very La of me.

And I also, this is weird, This is very La of me.

I miss that. So in La it's like.

I miss that. So in La it's like.

A genuine conversation people will have that is a real conversation that people really care about is talking about restaurants. Like people love to talk about restaurants in La.

A genuine conversation people will have that is a real conversation that people really care about is talking about restaurants. Like people love to talk about restaurants in La.

But it's like not just small talk, it's like they care.

But it's like not just small talk, it's like they care.

It's like they'll be like, have you been to that restaurant on blah blah blah or in Lah Lah La Lah, And did you get the thing? Did you get the Brussels spouts? And they'll be like, Oh, I haven't tried the Brussel spouts. Oh you should try the Brussels spouts. Did you try the Brussel spouts at this restaurant? And it's like a genuine conversation that people really care about and it's so stupid and pointless, but I kind of really like it. But if you did that in London, people would be like, what the fuck are they talking?

It's like they'll be like, have you been to that restaurant on blah blah blah or in Lah Lah La Lah, And did you get the thing? Did you get the Brussels spouts? And they'll be like, Oh, I haven't tried the Brussel spouts. Oh you should try the Brussels spouts. Did you try the Brussel spouts at this restaurant? And it's like a genuine conversation that people really care about and it's so stupid and pointless, but I kind of really like it. But if you did that in London, people would be like, what the fuck are they talking?

It's like their equivalent of us talking about the weather all the time.

It's like their equivalent of us talking about the weather all the time.

But it's not because I feel like weather chat is a bit yah, it's a bit like oh what do we do?

But it's not because I feel like weather chat is a bit yah, it's a bit like oh what do we do?

Let's talk about the weather.

Let's talk about the weather.

This is like an in depth conversation that can go on for half an hour and it's a real like and people really care about it. People are like, oh, like that's I will check out that restaurant.

This is like an in depth conversation that can go on for half an hour and it's a real like and people really care about it. People are like, oh, like that's I will check out that restaurant.

So I kind of miss that. It's so stupid and pointless though, But.

So I kind of miss that. It's so stupid and pointless though, But.

Then when I'm in LA I really you know what, Like I came back yesterday to the UK from New York and I was standing in an elevator this morning and I was just like listening to two guys talking the lift, and I missed like people being really British British accents. I miss like the crispness of the air here. I miss the sarcasm a lot. Like people in la are not sarcastic. They are so like hay, like yeah, it's really annoying. Like I just I miss like a sarcastic British like dark sense of humor.

Then when I'm in LA I really you know what, Like I came back yesterday to the UK from New York and I was standing in an elevator this morning and I was just like listening to two guys talking the lift, and I missed like people being really British British accents. I miss like the crispness of the air here. I miss the sarcasm a lot. Like people in la are not sarcastic. They are so like hay, like yeah, it's really annoying. Like I just I miss like a sarcastic British like dark sense of humor.

You know, because you grew up in Essex.

You know, because you grew up in Essex.

Yes, whereabouts?

Yes, whereabouts?

I grew up in South End?

I grew up in South End?

Okay, I grew up in Bishop Staltford. I've been to South End Peter Pan Ride, Yeah, did.

Okay, I grew up in Bishop Staltford. I've been to South End Peter Pan Ride, Yeah, did.

You go when it was still I think they've changed the name now.

You go when it was still I think they've changed the name now.

Have they. I haven't been for a while, long time, long time.

Have they. I haven't been for a while, long time, long time.

What do you think of South End?

What do you think of South End?

I mean I loved it.

I mean I loved it.

It's kind of it's kind of it's gone down here, I think.

It's kind of it's kind of it's gone down here, I think.

Has it?

Has it?

I mean when I was younger, so I lived I lived in I lived actually out just outside of Bishop Stalford, but like Bishop Stalford.

I mean when I was younger, so I lived I lived in I lived actually out just outside of Bishop Stalford, but like Bishop Stalford.

Was in my town or whatever.

Was in my town or whatever.

But I couldn't really like walk anywhere from my house, so it was like I was just like in my house until I could like drive. So that's why I really enjoyed like going to South End, going to Brighton and it was fun because you could like walk around or you can do stuff. It was like magical, magical places, you know.

But I couldn't really like walk anywhere from my house, so it was like I was just like in my house until I could like drive. So that's why I really enjoyed like going to South End, going to Brighton and it was fun because you could like walk around or you can do stuff. It was like magical, magical places, you know.

So what were you up to? Where As you say you were pretty much housebound? Is that when you started making music because you were I did?

So what were you up to? Where As you say you were pretty much housebound? Is that when you started making music because you were I did?

You know?

You know?

I started making music not because I couldn't like go out, but more because I think I just wanted to, Like I just wanted a creative outlet, and this felt most natural.

I started making music not because I couldn't like go out, but more because I think I just wanted to, Like I just wanted a creative outlet, and this felt most natural.

And music was a way of me being cool kind of.

And music was a way of me being cool kind of.

Like I made music because it was like escapism and I felt cool doing it and I wasn't really that cool, you know, so making music was like wow, like it's cool, I can do this. And I think when I was younger, I was really just trying to like emulate people who I admired, which I think, you know, I think we do a lot when we were younger, in any sort of field or walk of life. But yeah, it just felt like escapism and it felt good.

Like I made music because it was like escapism and I felt cool doing it and I wasn't really that cool, you know, so making music was like wow, like it's cool, I can do this. And I think when I was younger, I was really just trying to like emulate people who I admired, which I think, you know, I think we do a lot when we were younger, in any sort of field or walk of life. But yeah, it just felt like escapism and it felt good.

Because you also went to Slade Fine Art College.

Because you also went to Slade Fine Art College.

I did.

I did.

That's a hard college to get into, right, Yes, what was your what was your medium? Your art medium?

That's a hard college to get into, right, Yes, what was your what was your medium? Your art medium?

So my time at Slade was very it was.

So my time at Slade was very it was.

It was hard, like I because I didn't do a foundation. So I didn't really understand art school at all. I didn't have the language, I didn't really have the skill set. I didn't know how to talk about art, and I also didn't really understand any of the bullshit, like art is so much bullshit and chat, you know, And now knowing that now I think I would have had I would have so much more fun there. But honestly, when I was younger, I was just very intimidated by people and scared.

It was hard, like I because I didn't do a foundation. So I didn't really understand art school at all. I didn't have the language, I didn't really have the skill set. I didn't know how to talk about art, and I also didn't really understand any of the bullshit, like art is so much bullshit and chat, you know, And now knowing that now I think I would have had I would have so much more fun there. But honestly, when I was younger, I was just very intimidated by people and scared.

And that is like number one red flag of art school. You can't show.

And that is like number one red flag of art school. You can't show.

Your fear, you know, because then they just eat you alive. So I didn't really understand that it was all just one big game. So I went and I dropped out after like a year and a half actually because my music started happening for me.

Your fear, you know, because then they just eat you alive. So I didn't really understand that it was all just one big game. So I went and I dropped out after like a year and a half actually because my music started happening for me.

Were you painting or were you a sculpture?

Were you painting or were you a sculpture?

I was sort of.

I was sort of.

So when I went and I interviewed there, my portfolio was really heavy on video art and installations and photography not really that I'd done, but the picture's pictures of me, And.

So when I went and I interviewed there, my portfolio was really heavy on video art and installations and photography not really that I'd done, but the picture's pictures of me, And.

It was mainly like it was mainly I was making.

It was mainly like it was mainly I was making.

A videos and I was making installations, but it was funny like I did this photo shoot with Rankin and the Supposo shoot with David Bailey, and I put it in my portfoilio, which was like really stupid, and they were like, oh wow, and yeah, I was like, it's but I said it was them. I was like, this is a collaboration that I'd done with David Bailey. Like I totally lied. But then the video, art and the installations were all made by me. But then when I got in I just sort of like suddenly decided that I wanted to paint, which I'd never done before. I was terrible at didn't know anything about painting. I didn't know how to stretch canvas, I didn't know how to didn't know what primer was, like the whole I was just such a rookie and so I'm not really sure why I didn't. I think it's because I had a friend in who was doing painting, and I was like, oh, okay, I'm really afraid of everyone.

A videos and I was making installations, but it was funny like I did this photo shoot with Rankin and the Supposo shoot with David Bailey, and I put it in my portfoilio, which was like really stupid, and they were like, oh wow, and yeah, I was like, it's but I said it was them. I was like, this is a collaboration that I'd done with David Bailey. Like I totally lied. But then the video, art and the installations were all made by me. But then when I got in I just sort of like suddenly decided that I wanted to paint, which I'd never done before. I was terrible at didn't know anything about painting. I didn't know how to stretch canvas, I didn't know how to didn't know what primer was, like the whole I was just such a rookie and so I'm not really sure why I didn't. I think it's because I had a friend in who was doing painting, and I was like, oh, okay, I'm really afraid of everyone.

I'm just going to stick with you, which wasn't really the best idea.

I'm just going to stick with you, which wasn't really the best idea.

In hindsight, I think if I'd gone and done video and installations, I probably would have had more fun.

In hindsight, I think if I'd gone and done video and installations, I probably would have had more fun.

But yeah, I didn't.

But yeah, I didn't.

So how did you set up a shoot with Rankin and David Bailey. How does that come about?

So how did you set up a shoot with Rankin and David Bailey. How does that come about?

Oh?

Oh?

Well that was because I was so I went to Slade when I was like nineteen eighteen maybe, and so I'd been making music since I was sixteen, so I was already doing shoots and I'd signed my deal, so I was always already doing like press and things, you know. So it was just the David Bailey the Ranking shoot was the first shoot I ever did, and that.

Well that was because I was so I went to Slade when I was like nineteen eighteen maybe, and so I'd been making music since I was sixteen, so I was already doing shoots and I'd signed my deal, so I was always already doing like press and things, you know. So it was just the David Bailey the Ranking shoot was the first shoot I ever did, and that.

Just came about.

Just came about.

Hit his team or whatever contacted me directly, and he was making this book called Destroy where he basically shot a load of artists and then we had to destroy the image, whether that was like cutting it up or editing it or burning it or whatever. I made mine into a college and then it got printed in the book alongside the original. So that was that kind of was a collaboration.

Hit his team or whatever contacted me directly, and he was making this book called Destroy where he basically shot a load of artists and then we had to destroy the image, whether that was like cutting it up or editing it or burning it or whatever. I made mine into a college and then it got printed in the book alongside the original. So that was that kind of was a collaboration.

So I kind of didn't lie about that one that counts.

So I kind of didn't lie about that one that counts.

And then the David Bailey one was just a shoot for Interview magazine and Vogue.

And then the David Bailey one was just a shoot for Interview magazine and Vogue.

That sort of lie.

That sort of lie.

It was a good, good lie. Yeah, well yeah, I.

It was a good, good lie. Yeah, well yeah, I.

Mean it was.

Mean it was.

I mean, I guess if I hadn't been there, the image wouldn't have happened.

I mean, I guess if I hadn't been there, the image wouldn't have happened.

So it's a collaboration in that sort of way.

So it's a collaboration in that sort of way.

It I think that counts. Is it true that you were playing warehouse parties from like fourteen?

It I think that counts. Is it true that you were playing warehouse parties from like fourteen?

Yes?

Yes?

Is that true?

Is that true?

It's true.

It's true.

Wow, what can you remember from that? That must have been intense, because I raised intense when you're twenty four.

Wow, what can you remember from that? That must have been intense, because I raised intense when you're twenty four.

I mean, it was like the coolest thing that had ever happened to me. Like I was so like excited to go and play, and I was so kind of.

I mean, it was like the coolest thing that had ever happened to me. Like I was so like excited to go and play, and I was so kind of.

Awe struck by all of the people.

Awe struck by all of the people.

There and the clothes they were wearing, and the drugs they were taking and the music that was being played. Like it was so exciting and so cool. I honestly like, Mike, because you know, this was happening when I was fourteen. My main reference point was Skins, So I was like, I'm in an episode of Skins.

There and the clothes they were wearing, and the drugs they were taking and the music that was being played. Like it was so exciting and so cool. I honestly like, Mike, because you know, this was happening when I was fourteen. My main reference point was Skins, So I was like, I'm in an episode of Skins.

This is crazy, you know. And my other reference point was sort of watching.

This is crazy, you know. And my other reference point was sort of watching.

MySpace and looking at all of the profiles of artists I liked, particularly like a lot of artists signed to ed Banger, and like looking at like pictures of ed Banger parties and stuff.

MySpace and looking at all of the profiles of artists I liked, particularly like a lot of artists signed to ed Banger, and like looking at like pictures of ed Banger parties and stuff.

I was like, whoa, Like I'm in that in London.

I was like, whoa, Like I'm in that in London.

But the only thing that was sort of like getting my buzz was like my parents would come with.

But the only thing that was sort of like getting my buzz was like my parents would come with.

Me right sore.

Me right sore.

They cool though, Yeah, they were. They didn't like kind of no they.

They cool though, Yeah, they were. They didn't like kind of no they.

I mean they were around, but they weren't like smothering, you know.

I mean they were around, but they weren't like smothering, you know.

They were very supportive and I think they also really enjoyed it as well, because my dad was kind of like reliving his youth and my mum was just sort of like what the fuck is going on?

They were very supportive and I think they also really enjoyed it as well, because my dad was kind of like reliving his youth and my mum was just sort of like what the fuck is going on?

But it was cool. Yeah, they were, they were supportive.

But it was cool. Yeah, they were, they were supportive.

Yeah, we would stay till late. We would stay at all, like six am. It was kind of what I old.

Yeah, we would stay till late. We would stay at all, like six am. It was kind of what I old.

Actually you were trying to drag them home.

Actually you were trying to drag them home.

You're like, yeah, I was like, guys.

You're like, yeah, I was like, guys.

We've got to go now. Yeah, and do you always? I mean that kind of all makes sense with what your your music is now and like ed banger and that you can hear that in your in your music, but your music is also kind of unapologetically pop music. The fact that you're definitely a pop star, but you're you've been embraced by the pitchforks of the world who wouldn't necessarily write about Taylor Swift, but they will write about you. Why do you think that is that that hip for want of a better word, world has kind of loves loves your music.

We've got to go now. Yeah, and do you always? I mean that kind of all makes sense with what your your music is now and like ed banger and that you can hear that in your in your music, but your music is also kind of unapologetically pop music. The fact that you're definitely a pop star, but you're you've been embraced by the pitchforks of the world who wouldn't necessarily write about Taylor Swift, but they will write about you. Why do you think that is that that hip for want of a better word, world has kind of loves loves your music.

I don't know really honestly.

I don't know really honestly.

I mean, I think I'm a very good creator, and I always try my best to work with people who are you know, new and exciting and people who are really pushing the sounds in the field that they work in, you know. And I never want to work with anybody just because somebody's telling me there the newest, coolest thing, or they've got a number one or anything like. I'm not interested in that. I'm really interested in building like a community of people around me who are all very like minded in the way that we think about music and the way that we create things. And I've always, I don't know, I've just been true to myself in that sense, especially over the past three years. And I think that audiences now more than ever, really love authenticity, and I'm always very authentic to myself. So maybe that's why some people gravitate towards it. I don't really know, but I think also like in general.

I mean, I think I'm a very good creator, and I always try my best to work with people who are you know, new and exciting and people who are really pushing the sounds in the field that they work in, you know. And I never want to work with anybody just because somebody's telling me there the newest, coolest thing, or they've got a number one or anything like. I'm not interested in that. I'm really interested in building like a community of people around me who are all very like minded in the way that we think about music and the way that we create things. And I've always, I don't know, I've just been true to myself in that sense, especially over the past three years. And I think that audiences now more than ever, really love authenticity, and I'm always very authentic to myself. So maybe that's why some people gravitate towards it. I don't really know, but I think also like in general.

Like pop is cool, yeah it is now.

Like pop is cool, yeah it is now.

Yeah it wasn't.

Yeah it wasn't.

It wasn't like ten years ago or whatever, but like pop's cool now, Like Taylor Swift is cool you know, like nineteen eighty nine is, like I would say, like a very cool record, Like a lot of my friends who make like very weird like electronic noise.

It wasn't like ten years ago or whatever, but like pop's cool now, Like Taylor Swift is cool you know, like nineteen eighty nine is, like I would say, like a very cool record, Like a lot of my friends who make like very weird like electronic noise.

Music love that.

Music love that.

Love Taylor Swift and love that album so much because I think it's it's great. It's excellent pop music with great production and great lyrics and yeah, so I think pops just considered cool now as well, you know, so people are less afraid to attach themselves to it.

Love Taylor Swift and love that album so much because I think it's it's great. It's excellent pop music with great production and great lyrics and yeah, so I think pops just considered cool now as well, you know, so people are less afraid to attach themselves to it.

How was the Taylor Swift tour? Is it finished?

How was the Taylor Swift tour? Is it finished?

Now? It's not finished. It's actually the US leg is finished and the UK leg is done. So we go to Australia for like a couple of weeks, three weeks, and New Zealand and then Japan and then we're done.

Now? It's not finished. It's actually the US leg is finished and the UK leg is done. So we go to Australia for like a couple of weeks, three weeks, and New Zealand and then Japan and then we're done.

And then you're done. How's it been?

And then you're done. How's it been?

It's been long. We started in May and we ended that of November. It's been really good though.

It's been long. We started in May and we ended that of November. It's been really good though.

You know, it's like she's very welcoming and we knew each other beforehand, and Kamila and I are close and have written together and know each other quite well. So it feels it feels like, you know, sometimes you do big tours where you don't really like see each other and you don't really speak.

You know, it's like she's very welcoming and we knew each other beforehand, and Kamila and I are close and have written together and know each other quite well. So it feels it feels like, you know, sometimes you do big tours where you don't really like see each other and you don't really speak.

You just kind of like do the show and that's it.

You just kind of like do the show and that's it.

But it feels like a kind of group of friends like on tour, which is nice.

But it feels like a kind of group of friends like on tour, which is nice.

YEA, Because you've done other big ones, you know, did you tour with cole Play or you opened a show.

YEA, Because you've done other big ones, you know, did you tour with cole Play or you opened a show.

I did a tour with them a long time ago.

I did a tour with them a long time ago.

Because I mean that's as big. I mean, that's big. Yeah, that's big, Katie Perry, that's big. Do you like the big ones honestly?

Because I mean that's as big. I mean, that's big. Yeah, that's big, Katie Perry, that's big. Do you like the big ones honestly?

Like A, No, I actually, I mean I don't not like them, otherwise we wouldn't do it. But I do prefer you know, I think anyone prefers playing their own show.

Like A, No, I actually, I mean I don't not like them, otherwise we wouldn't do it. But I do prefer you know, I think anyone prefers playing their own show.

Sure.

Sure.

So I actually have sort of decided now after this tour with Taylor, I won't open for anyone again.

So I actually have sort of decided now after this tour with Taylor, I won't open for anyone again.

Really, this is the last one.

Really, this is the last one.

This is the last one.

This is the last one.

And it's not because any of the tours I've opened for people and have been bad experiences. They've actually all been really great experiences. It's just like I'm I feel like I'm that's just I'm done with that now, you know, I'm ready. Whilst I've been on Taylor's tour, I've also done some of my own shows and they felt more exciting than ever, and I feel like I really just want to put the time into that now.

And it's not because any of the tours I've opened for people and have been bad experiences. They've actually all been really great experiences. It's just like I'm I feel like I'm that's just I'm done with that now, you know, I'm ready. Whilst I've been on Taylor's tour, I've also done some of my own shows and they felt more exciting than ever, and I feel like I really just want to put the time into that now.

That's the thing. I guess if you're going on tour for the whole year with somebody else, it's taking time, isn't it.

That's the thing. I guess if you're going on tour for the whole year with somebody else, it's taking time, isn't it.

It takes time. It really does take time, and it's hard.

It takes time. It really does take time, and it's hard.

To be motivated to do other things because you're very tired, and you're often in like Buffalo or like Minneapolis where they're maybe aren't.

To be motivated to do other things because you're very tired, and you're often in like Buffalo or like Minneapolis where they're maybe aren't.

Like the best studios.

Like the best studios.

They are a great There are good studios, but it's not like the same and their producers are in la or in Sweden, and you're sending stuff back and forth, which I'm into, like I've made a lot of pop two like that, But yeah, it's hard to sometimes it's hard to be like creative when you're kind of like moving around the middle of America.

They are a great There are good studios, but it's not like the same and their producers are in la or in Sweden, and you're sending stuff back and forth, which I'm into, like I've made a lot of pop two like that, But yeah, it's hard to sometimes it's hard to be like creative when you're kind of like moving around the middle of America.

Because you write a lot for a lot of people as well. Is that something you can do on the road.

Because you write a lot for a lot of people as well. Is that something you can do on the road.

It depends really.

It depends really.

If it depends if someone's like sending you a track to write over, then yes. But if it's like it's hard, I mean, yeah, you need to sort of go into the studio sometimes for that kind of thing.

If it depends if someone's like sending you a track to write over, then yes. But if it's like it's hard, I mean, yeah, you need to sort of go into the studio sometimes for that kind of thing.

So it is it's not always easy?

So it is it's not always easy?

You wrote two songs for the last Blondie record. Yes, what was that like? Well, is that entailed? Does that entail like you're just submitting a song?

You wrote two songs for the last Blondie record. Yes, what was that like? Well, is that entailed? Does that entail like you're just submitting a song?

Well?

Well?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Actually, basically Chris reached out to me and was like, we love you and your stuff and we're making this album and sent me this like list of like mad references and was like, do you have anything, and I sent two songs. God, it was honestly so broad. It was like the most broad list of references ever. It was like they were like, we're.

Actually, basically Chris reached out to me and was like, we love you and your stuff and we're making this album and sent me this like list of like mad references and was like, do you have anything, and I sent two songs. God, it was honestly so broad. It was like the most broad list of references ever. It was like they were like, we're.

Working with CEA, but we're also interested in like Latin.

Working with CEA, but we're also interested in like Latin.

Songs, and like Debbie's favorite song is lean On by Major Laser, and then like you know, referencing some of their stuff. It was like just really crazy.

Songs, and like Debbie's favorite song is lean On by Major Laser, and then like you know, referencing some of their stuff. It was like just really crazy.

And I was like, ah, like what is happening?

And I was like, ah, like what is happening?

And so I just sent these two songs that i'd actually made when I was fourteen, and I just sent them through and they were like, we really like these and we want to kind of mess with them and.

And so I just sent these two songs that i'd actually made when I was fourteen, and I just sent them through and they were like, we really like these and we want to kind of mess with them and.

Make them our own. So they did that.

Make them our own. So they did that.

We never actually went to the studio together, right, but I've met Debbie and Chris numerous times and they've always been really supportive of me, and and I was just really happy when they did their thing with.

We never actually went to the studio together, right, but I've met Debbie and Chris numerous times and they've always been really supportive of me, and and I was just really happy when they did their thing with.

The songs, and I went to their show at the Roundhouse in.

The songs, and I went to their show at the Roundhouse in.

London with my mum and dad, and my mom was like freaking out, Oh my god.

London with my mum and dad, and my mom was like freaking out, Oh my god.

You know what. Debbie actually came to my Pop two.

You know what. Debbie actually came to my Pop two.

Show in New York and she came backstage she met my parents and my.

Show in New York and she came backstage she met my parents and my.

Dad was like freaking out.

Dad was like freaking out.

It was really funny because my dad's met like a lot of artists through me, but I've never seen him really kind of like lose his shit before.

It was really funny because my dad's met like a lot of artists through me, but I've never seen him really kind of like lose his shit before.

And he was like, oh my god, like I'm such a huge fan. I was like, all right, Dad, play it.

And he was like, oh my god, like I'm such a huge fan. I was like, all right, Dad, play it.

Cool man, come on, you like stuff embarrassing. Yeah, that's amazing though that they've got a song on the record that you wrote when you were fourteen.

Cool man, come on, you like stuff embarrassing. Yeah, that's amazing though that they've got a song on the record that you wrote when you were fourteen.

Yeah, that's nuts. It's cool.

Yeah, that's nuts. It's cool.

And the other thing I just wanted to quickly ask you about was you have synesthesia, which, for listeners who might not know what that is, it's seeing music in colors. Correct, And there are some colors that you that you like more than others. Right, Yes, so you like songs that are like pinks and purples, yes, but you hate greens and browns.

And the other thing I just wanted to quickly ask you about was you have synesthesia, which, for listeners who might not know what that is, it's seeing music in colors. Correct, And there are some colors that you that you like more than others. Right, Yes, so you like songs that are like pinks and purples, yes, but you hate greens and browns.

Yeah, I've changed my opinion on green though, Okay, just because my whole new single is like based around the color green.

Yeah, I've changed my opinion on green though, Okay, just because my whole new single is like based around the color green.

So what for reference? What is what? To you? Is a what is a what is a pink and purple song? Then what what kind of Okay?

So what for reference? What is what? To you? Is a what is a what is a pink and purple song? Then what what kind of Okay?

So pink and purple song to me is like the Cure?

So pink and purple song to me is like the Cure?

Okay, Like Boys Don't Cry would be very like pinky purple song.

Okay, Like Boys Don't Cry would be very like pinky purple song.

Or Pictures of You.

Or Pictures of You.

Also, like Blackout by Britney Spears, that whole album is kind of like pink and purple R.

Also, like Blackout by Britney Spears, that whole album is kind of like pink and purple R.

But then like brown and green.

But then like brown and green.

And this is like tough because I've kind of changed my opinion on this, but like Pitbull would be brown and green. But I actually really love Pitbull now, I kind of think he's great. Ag Cook really like turn me onto Pitbull. He was like, you need to like get over this and like really think about how good Pitbull is, and I kind of agree.

And this is like tough because I've kind of changed my opinion on this, but like Pitbull would be brown and green. But I actually really love Pitbull now, I kind of think he's great. Ag Cook really like turn me onto Pitbull. He was like, you need to like get over this and like really think about how good Pitbull is, and I kind of agree.

So yeah, I guess.

So yeah, I guess.

It's really hard because it's probably impossible to describe this. But what is it that makes Pitbull green and brown?

It's really hard because it's probably impossible to describe this. But what is it that makes Pitbull green and brown?

I think it's like the tonality and like there's certain like production.

I think it's like the tonality and like there's certain like production.

Choices and the chords.

Choices and the chords.

Okay, it's it's hard for me to explain because I'm actually not that good at music theory.

Okay, it's it's hard for me to explain because I'm actually not that good at music theory.

So there probably is like a very.

So there probably is like a very.

Obvious reason to what I see and hear, but I just don't know how.

Obvious reason to what I see and hear, but I just don't know how.

To explain it.

To explain it.

Yeah, how's your year been? If you had a good year, We're at the end of the year pretty much.

Yeah, how's your year been? If you had a good year, We're at the end of the year pretty much.

Yeah, this year has gone so fast. It feels like, honestly, yeah, I have had a good year. I mean I've been on tour from May.

Yeah, this year has gone so fast. It feels like, honestly, yeah, I have had a good year. I mean I've been on tour from May.

It's been good. I just I'm excited to like release music.

It's been good. I just I'm excited to like release music.

With like the support of everybody around me, which is cool, and I really just want to be in the studio get off the road. Yeah, like it's been fun, don't get me wrong. But I think, you know, like anything, you have too much of something and then you want something else. So that's how I feel right now.

With like the support of everybody around me, which is cool, and I really just want to be in the studio get off the road. Yeah, like it's been fun, don't get me wrong. But I think, you know, like anything, you have too much of something and then you want something else. So that's how I feel right now.

And there it is Charlie speaking to me back in twenty eighteen. What was your impression of her from hearing that.

And there it is Charlie speaking to me back in twenty eighteen. What was your impression of her from hearing that.

I thought she was very in control. I don't think she sounded bored like you thought that she might have at the time. I actually remember you coming back from doing this saying like, I don't know how that went. Sure, yeah, And I think like sometimes these interviews are like cheese, right, like they sort of mature and in time they get better, they go off. I think this one gets better. I don't think this one goes off. Yeah, So I thought yeah, I thought she Yeah, she's really cool. She's got such a kind of like collected sort of v I think she's pretty single minded about like what she's doing and where she's going basically, and it's really impressive.

I thought she was very in control. I don't think she sounded bored like you thought that she might have at the time. I actually remember you coming back from doing this saying like, I don't know how that went. Sure, yeah, And I think like sometimes these interviews are like cheese, right, like they sort of mature and in time they get better, they go off. I think this one gets better. I don't think this one goes off. Yeah, So I thought yeah, I thought she Yeah, she's really cool. She's got such a kind of like collected sort of v I think she's pretty single minded about like what she's doing and where she's going basically, and it's really impressive.

I think it's also always worth remembering that this is someone who has been doing this since she was fourteen years old. You know, she you know, a young woman in the music industry who she says there at the end that those songs that she gave to Blondie for their album she wrote when she was fourteen.

I think it's also always worth remembering that this is someone who has been doing this since she was fourteen years old. You know, she you know, a young woman in the music industry who she says there at the end that those songs that she gave to Blondie for their album she wrote when she was fourteen.

I know.

I know.

I think it's interesting that she went to art college because I think maybe that's something that has been missed out of the Charlie XX story, Like people think she's just a sort of pop disruptor who comes along and has made these pop songs that sound a bit kind of hyper pop. But she's clearly she's got this background at a very prestigious like Slade is a very prestigious art college here in the UK, and it's just wild that she was her you know, her work there included shoots Vogue, shoots she had done with David Bailey, Like such a strain, like such a such a weird two worlds. Like she's a young woman at at Art college, but she's also in parallel being a pop star on a major label doing shoots with world class musicians, and she's using that within her work. But it just went to show that she's been doing this a very long time, and she's been doing it since she's a kid, so of course she's going to just have a different approach to the world than your.

I think it's interesting that she went to art college because I think maybe that's something that has been missed out of the Charlie XX story, Like people think she's just a sort of pop disruptor who comes along and has made these pop songs that sound a bit kind of hyper pop. But she's clearly she's got this background at a very prestigious like Slade is a very prestigious art college here in the UK, and it's just wild that she was her you know, her work there included shoots Vogue, shoots she had done with David Bailey, Like such a strain, like such a such a weird two worlds. Like she's a young woman at at Art college, but she's also in parallel being a pop star on a major label doing shoots with world class musicians, and she's using that within her work. But it just went to show that she's been doing this a very long time, and she's been doing it since she's a kid, so of course she's going to just have a different approach to the world than your.

I yeah, totally. I mean I think it's six years ago, right, so I think like there are certain things now that you can sort of unpick that wouldn't have you wouldn't have noticed at the time, but are sort of not obvious now, but are underlying, for example, that sort of sense of outsiderhood that she talks about being Art college and just growing up in general, just kind of feeling like, you know, not quite the fit, feeling different. That is sort of like the seeds of what Bratt is right, like that, in an essence, that's what this whole Brat sort of era is about of just kind of just being like of imperfection, of kind of a bit of outsiderhood, a bit of kind of messiness. And so it's sort of like, ah, well, maybe she was having those ideas back then, Like maybe she would even thought of like the brat concept back there. Maybe it was formulating, Maybe it was formulating whilst she was speaking to her for this podcast. I think that's probably the most bratt. I think you might have invented Brat. I think there's another thing going on at the moment where people are like, how intentional has this all been? Right? Like how Charlie's This is the release of Charlie's sixth album, so she's, as you've already pointed out, she's been doing this for quite a long time, Like is it just you know? And I saw people early on sort of saying I heard people early on saying, you know, this is kind of amazing, like she's hit a sixth album and then she just hit this like really steep ascent, Like is that just kind of like luck? Is it by design? I think it's listening to Charlie speak, it is so by design? Like she's she really has kind of gone for it with this whole concept, this whole album, and you heard it there she was as you spoke to us, she was like in the middle of a support tour with Taylor Swift, Like it doesn't get much bigger than that, But there she was saying, I'm done with this, like I'm not going to support any other artists anymore, Like I'm going to do my own thing. So in a way, it sort of feels like she's been building towards this brat point for maybe longer than we all thought.

I yeah, totally. I mean I think it's six years ago, right, so I think like there are certain things now that you can sort of unpick that wouldn't have you wouldn't have noticed at the time, but are sort of not obvious now, but are underlying, for example, that sort of sense of outsiderhood that she talks about being Art college and just growing up in general, just kind of feeling like, you know, not quite the fit, feeling different. That is sort of like the seeds of what Bratt is right, like that, in an essence, that's what this whole Brat sort of era is about of just kind of just being like of imperfection, of kind of a bit of outsiderhood, a bit of kind of messiness. And so it's sort of like, ah, well, maybe she was having those ideas back then, Like maybe she would even thought of like the brat concept back there. Maybe it was formulating, Maybe it was formulating whilst she was speaking to her for this podcast. I think that's probably the most bratt. I think you might have invented Brat. I think there's another thing going on at the moment where people are like, how intentional has this all been? Right? Like how Charlie's This is the release of Charlie's sixth album, so she's, as you've already pointed out, she's been doing this for quite a long time, Like is it just you know? And I saw people early on sort of saying I heard people early on saying, you know, this is kind of amazing, like she's hit a sixth album and then she just hit this like really steep ascent, Like is that just kind of like luck? Is it by design? I think it's listening to Charlie speak, it is so by design? Like she's she really has kind of gone for it with this whole concept, this whole album, and you heard it there she was as you spoke to us, she was like in the middle of a support tour with Taylor Swift, Like it doesn't get much bigger than that, But there she was saying, I'm done with this, like I'm not going to support any other artists anymore, Like I'm going to do my own thing. So in a way, it sort of feels like she's been building towards this brat point for maybe longer than we all thought.

And she was talking back even in this interview. She's talking about authenticity, and that's the thing that everyone's been picking up on on this album, is that we are in an era where authenticity is the biggest currency within pop music and it's about people being themselves and telling putting it all out there.

And she was talking back even in this interview. She's talking about authenticity, and that's the thing that everyone's been picking up on on this album, is that we are in an era where authenticity is the biggest currency within pop music and it's about people being themselves and telling putting it all out there.

Is there any other reflections on the actual content of what you spoke to her about that you think you're interesting now with this passage of time that's gone by, I suppose the obvious thing is, like the Taylor Swift stuff, which.

Is there any other reflections on the actual content of what you spoke to her about that you think you're interesting now with this passage of time that's gone by, I suppose the obvious thing is, like the Taylor Swift stuff, which.

Is it going to be? It might be conspiracy theorists for us to get into that. Back then she was supporting Taylor Swift. They were obviously got on to a certain extent, or there was a mutual it was mutually beneficial for them to be on tour together, and now they're just in a very different place where that pitted against each other. I'm not sure how much of that is true, how much of that is media sensationalism, but I mean, you can't deny that some that lyric on Sympathi is a Knife on the new album is clearly aimed at Taylor Swift. I mean it's clearly aimed at the lyric. Let me get that lyric. There's a lyric in that track that says, don't want to see her backstage at my boyfriend's show, fingers crossed behind my back. I hope they break up quick. Allegedly about Swift going out with crazy Man Matt Heay, front man of nineteen seventy five. Charlie's boyfriend is the drummer George from nineteen seventy five, and so last year they would have been around each other a lot because she, you know, Taylor Swift was was going to those shows and being backstage with her boyfriend, who's the singer in the band But what I find in the whole Swift Charlie Xx battle is this whole thing about Taylor Swift releasing a special edition of her album the week Bratt came out going to number one, when Bratt was pretty much nailed on to go to number one, and blocking Charlie Xx having her first number one album. Oh, it's just too juicy, isn't it to like for people to not get into that because it's pretty juicy. I mean, even if let's say you're the Taylor Swift camp and it's not true you were going to release it. I mean, Taylor Swift release is a new, different colored final every other week to take advantage of her fans. And you know, let's say that was all planned, it was in the factory line, it was they couldn't pull it. Even so you should just admit. You should just lean into it and say that you did do it for that reason, because it's it's not standing up in court that it's just not is it. Someone releases a record that slags you off, and then you happen to put out your album again and that goes to number one instead of their album, Like you can't. You've just got to say this is unfortunate. I may as well own this and say, yeah, I did that, fuck you for slagging me off. I loved Matt Healy. He's a misunderstood soul. That's what the Swift Camp should have done.