Exhausted, struggling to stay afloat, and dreading going to work? You could be burnt out. Bron & Rach share their experiences with burnout and take us through some actionable ways to overcome it.

Thanks for listening. Mental Work is the podcast taking a closer look at the everyday challenges faced by early-career mental health professionals, so they don’t have to go it alone.

Love the podcast? You can help keep it alive by joining our Patreon for $2 a month at patreon.com/mentalworkpodcast

Website / Leave the Show a Review

Stuff we talked about in the episode:
Moral injury and burnout in medicine: a year of lessons learned - STAT
It's Not Burnout, It's Moral Injury | Dr. Zubin Damania on Physician "Burnout" Part 2: Moral Injury, The Sequel | AMA 24
Andrew D Wilson on Twitter: "I Burned Out: A Thread" / Twitter
Burnout in the medical profession: not a rite of passage
An assessment of psychological distress and professional burnout in mental health professionals in Australia during the COVID-19 pandemic - K Northwood, D Siskind, S Suetani, PA McArdle, 2021

Hosts: Bronwyn Milkins and Rachel Conroy

Producer: Michael English

Show Art: Bronwyn Milkins

Theme Music: Home

Exhausted, struggling to stay afloat, and dreading going to work? You could be burnt out. Bron &amp; Rach share their experiences with burnout and take us through some actionable ways to overcome it.
Thanks for listening. Mental Work is the podcast taking a closer look at the everyday challenges faced by early-career mental health professionals, so they don’t have to go it alone.
Love the podcast? You can help keep it alive by joining our Patreon for $2 a month at<a href="http://www.patreon.com/mentalworkpodcast"> patreon.com/mentalworkpodcast</a>
<a href="https://www.mentalworkpodcast.com">Website</a> / <a href="http://www.ratethispodcast.com/mentalwork">Leave the Show a Review</a>
Stuff we talked about in the episode:
<ul>
<li><a href="https://www.statnews.com/2019/07/26/moral-injury-burnout-medicine-lessons-learned/">Moral injury and burnout in medicine: a year of lessons learned - STAT</a> </li>
<li><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_1PNZdHq6Q&amp;t=14s">It's Not Burnout, It's Moral Injury | Dr. Zubin Damania on Physician "Burnout"</a> Part 2: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAQOhJFrpAw">Moral Injury, The Sequel | AMA 24</a> </li>
<li><a href="https://twitter.com/PsychScientists/status/1113805479514398720">Andrew D Wilson on Twitter: "I Burned Out: A Thread" / Twitter</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.mja.com.au/system/files/issues/208_11/10.5694mja17.00891.pdf">Burnout in the medical profession: not a rite of passage</a> </li>
<li><a href="https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/10398562211038906">An assessment of psychological distress and professional burnout in mental health professionals in Australia during the COVID-19 pandemic - K Northwood, D Siskind, S Suetani, PA McArdle, 2021</a> </li>
</ul>
Hosts: Bronwyn Milkins and Rachel Conroy
Producer: Michael English
Show Art: Bronwyn Milkins
Theme Music: <a href="https://home96.bandcamp.com">Home</a>

Mental Work is the podcast about working in mental health for psychologists, with an early-career focus. Hosted by Psychologist Dr Bronwyn Milkins.

Mental Work is the podcast about working in mental health for psychologists, with an early-career focus. Hosted by Psychologist Dr Bronwyn Milkins.

A closer look at the everyday challenges faced by early-career mental health workers, so they don’t have to go it alone.

Mental Work

Exhausted, struggling to stay afloat, and dreading going to work? You could be burnt out.

Burnout

Bron is joined by Matthew Jackson (Psychologist) to unpack psychologist myths and facts, quickfire style. Bron presents the myths (which Matthew has not heard before!) and Matthew weighs in, from whether therapists secretly judge clients to whether you can only take clients as far as you've gone yourself.

They chat about:
👉🏽 Judging clients and having favourite clients
👉🏻 Does charging a fee for therapy mean you don't care?
👉 Feeling lost in sessions and whether the therapeutic relationship is enough
👉🏿 Do you need to be smarter than your clients to do good therapy?

Guest: Matthew Jackson, Psychologist and Board-Approved Supervisor

LINKS
Matt's Insta for Matilda Mercury

THE END BITS

Mental Work is the podcast for psychologists about the realities of working in mental health, with an early-career focus. Hosted by psychologist/researcher Dr Bronwyn Milkins.

Support the show by buying me a virtual coffee ☕🍵

Have a question, episode idea or just want to say hi? DM Bron on Instagram, leave a comment on the Spotify episode, or email mentalworkpodcast@gmail.com

Apply to be a guest / YouTube (with captions & transcript) / Website

CREDITS

Producer: Michael English

Music: Home

Commitment: Mental Work believes in an inclusive and diverse mental health workforce. We honour the strength, resilience, and invaluable contributions of mental health workers with lived experiences of mental illness, disability, neurodivergence, LGBTIQA+ identities, and diverse culture and language. We recognise our First Nations colleagues as Traditional Custodians of the land and pay respect to Elders past, present, and emerging. Mental Work is recorded on unceded Whadjuk Noongar boodja.

Disclaimer: Mental Work provides informational content. Mental Work is not a psychological service and being a listener or guest does not establish a therapeutic relationship. Content should not be considered a replacement for professional consultation or therapy. All views expressed are personal, subject to change, and do not represent those of any affiliated employer, service, or organisation past or present. Efforts are made to ensure accuracy, but opinions may not always align with fact. Listeners are encouraged to thoughtfully assess the information presented and report any inaccuracies or concerns via email. Further information can be found here.

Bron is joined by Matthew Jackson (Psychologist) to unpack psychologist myths and facts, quickfire style. Bron presents the myths (which Matthew has not heard before!) and Matthew weighs in, from whether therapists secretly judge clients to whether you can only take clients as far as you've gone yourself.
They chat about: 👉🏽 Judging clients and having favourite clients 👉🏻 Does charging a fee for therapy mean you don't care? 👉 Feeling lost in sessions and whether the therapeutic relationship is enough 👉🏿 Do you need to be smarter than your clients to do good therapy?
Guest: Matthew Jackson, Psychologist and Board-Approved Supervisor
LINKS
<ul>
<li>Matt's Insta for <a href="https://www.instagram.com/matildamercuryqueen/?hl=en" data-airgap-id="21">Matilda Mercury</a></li>
</ul>
THE END BITS
Mental Work is the podcast for psychologists about the realities of working in mental health, with an early-career focus. Hosted by psychologist/researcher <a href="https://www.mentalworkpodcast.com/about/" data-airgap-id="8">Dr Bronwyn Milkins</a>.
Support the show by <a href="https://www.buymeacoffee.com/mentalwork" data-airgap-id="9">buying me a virtual coffee</a> ☕🍵
Have a question, episode idea or just want to say hi? <a href="https://www.instagram.com/_mentalworkpodcast/" data-airgap-id="10">DM Bron on Instagram</a>, leave a comment on the <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/5ifKADwT3mw6yYDZb9rHji" data-airgap-id="11">Spotify episode</a>, or <a href="mailto:mentalworkpodcast@gmail.com" data-airgap-id="12">email mentalworkpodcast@gmail.com</a>
<a href="https://www.podpage.com/mentalwork/p/guest/" data-airgap-id="13">Apply to be a guest</a> / <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@MentalWorkPodcast" data-airgap-id="14">YouTube (with captions &amp; transcript)</a> / <a href="https://www.mentalworkpodcast.com/" data-airgap-id="15">Website</a>
CREDITS
Producer: Michael English
Music: <a href="https://home96.bandcamp.com/" data-airgap-id="16">Home</a>
Commitment: Mental Work believes in an inclusive and diverse mental health workforce. We honour the strength, resilience, and invaluable contributions of mental health workers with lived experiences of mental illness, disability, neurodivergence, LGBTIQA+ identities, and diverse culture and language. We recognise our First Nations colleagues as Traditional Custodians of the land and pay respect to Elders past, present, and emerging. Mental Work is recorded on unceded Whadjuk Noongar boodja.
Disclaimer: Mental Work provides informational content. Mental Work is not a psychological service and being a listener or guest does not establish a therapeutic relationship. Content should not be considered a replacement for professional consultation or therapy. All views expressed are personal, subject to change, and do not represent those of any affiliated employer, service, or organisation past or present. Efforts are made to ensure accuracy, but opinions may not always align with fact. Listeners are encouraged to thoughtfully assess the information presented and report any inaccuracies or concerns via <a href="mailto:mentalworkpodcast@gmail.com" data-airgap-id="17">email</a>. Further information can be found <a href="https://www.mentalworkpodcast.com/p/disclaimer/" data-airgap-id="18">here</a>.

Psychologist myths and facts: Do we have favourite clients? Is the therapeutic relationship enough? (with Matthew Jackson)

Bron is joined by Marie Vakakis (Mental Health Social Worker and couples therapist) to chat about working with couples who stonewall, withdraw, and shut down. Marie unpacks the Gottman Method's "Four Horsemen" and shares exactly what to say and do when a couple's session starts to unravel. I found the episode really helpful for individual work, too!

They chat about:
👉🏽 The Four Horsemen: Criticism, Defensiveness, Contempt and Stonewalling
👉🏻 The specific antidotes to each pattern, including the "I feel, when, I need" formula
👉 How to recognise nervous system overwhelm and pause a session safely
👉🏿 Common mistakes early-career clinicians make starting out in couples work

Guest: Marie Vakakis, Accredited mental health social worker and couples therapist

LINKS
Marie's practice - The Therapy Hub
Marie's podcast - Inside Social Work podcast
Marie's other podcast - This Complex Life podcast
Marie's website
Marie on LinkedIn
The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work by John Gottman
Fight Right by John and Julie Gottman
Marie's previous Mental Work episode on couples work

THE END BITS

Mental Work is the podcast for psychologists about the realities of working in mental health, with an early-career focus. Hosted by psychologist/researcher Dr Bronwyn Milkins.

Support the show by buying me a virtual coffee ☕🍵

Have a question, episode idea or just want to say hi? DM Bron on Instagram, leave a comment on the Spotify episode, or email mentalworkpodcast@gmail.com

Apply to be a guest / YouTube (with captions & transcript) / Website

CREDITS

Producer: Michael English

Music: Home

Commitment: Mental Work believes in an inclusive and diverse mental health workforce. We honour the strength, resilience, and invaluable contributions of mental health workers with lived experiences of mental illness, disability, neurodivergence, LGBTIQA+ identities, and diverse culture and language. We recognise our First Nations colleagues as Traditional Custodians of the land and pay respect to Elders past, present, and emerging. Mental Work is recorded on unceded Whadjuk Noongar boodja.

Disclaimer: Mental Work provides informational content. Mental Work is not a psychological service and being a listener or guest does not establish a therapeutic relationship. Content should not be considered a replacement for professional consultation or therapy. All views expressed are personal, subject to change, and do not represent those of any affiliated employer, service, or organisation past or present. Efforts are made to ensure accuracy, but opinions may not always align with fact. Listeners are encouraged to thoughtfully assess the information presented and report any inaccuracies or concerns via email. Further information can be found here.

Bron is joined by Marie Vakakis (Mental Health Social Worker and couples therapist) to chat about working with couples who stonewall, withdraw, and shut down. Marie unpacks the Gottman Method's "Four Horsemen" and shares exactly what to say and do when a couple's session starts to unravel. I found the episode really helpful for individual work, too!
They chat about: 👉🏽 The Four Horsemen: Criticism, Defensiveness, Contempt and Stonewalling 👉🏻 The specific antidotes to each pattern, including the "I feel, when, I need" formula 👉 How to recognise nervous system overwhelm and pause a session safely 👉🏿 Common mistakes early-career clinicians make starting out in couples work
Guest: <a href="https://www.thetherapyhub.com.au">Marie Vakakis</a>, Accredited mental health social worker and couples therapist
LINKS
<ul>
<li>Marie's practice - <a href="https://thetherapyhub.com.au">The Therapy Hub</a></li>
<li>Marie's podcast - <a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/inside-social-work/id1791244160">Inside Social Work podcast</a></li>
<li>Marie's other podcast - <a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/this-complex-life/id1459084811">This Complex Life podcast</a></li>
<li><a href="https://marievakakis.com.au">Marie's website</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/marievakakis/">Marie on LinkedIn</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.gottman.com/product/the-seven-principles-for-making-marriage-work/">The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work by John Gottman</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.gottman.com/product/fight-right/">Fight Right by John and Julie Gottman</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.mentalworkpodcast.com/working-with-couples-with-marie-vakakis/">Marie's previous Mental Work episode on couples work</a></li>
</ul>
THE END BITS
Mental Work is the podcast for psychologists about the realities of working in mental health, with an early-career focus. Hosted by psychologist/researcher <a href="https://www.mentalworkpodcast.com/about/" data-airgap-id="8">Dr Bronwyn Milkins</a>.
Support the show by <a href="https://www.buymeacoffee.com/mentalwork" data-airgap-id="9">buying me a virtual coffee</a> ☕🍵
Have a question, episode idea or just want to say hi? <a href="https://www.instagram.com/_mentalworkpodcast/" data-airgap-id="10">DM Bron on Instagram</a>, leave a comment on the <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/5ifKADwT3mw6yYDZb9rHji" data-airgap-id="11">Spotify episode</a>, or <a href="mailto:mentalworkpodcast@gmail.com" data-airgap-id="12">email mentalworkpodcast@gmail.com</a>
<a href="https://www.podpage.com/mentalwork/p/guest/" data-airgap-id="13">Apply to be a guest</a> / <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@MentalWorkPodcast" data-airgap-id="14">YouTube (with captions &amp; transcript)</a> / <a href="https://www.mentalworkpodcast.com/" data-airgap-id="15">Website</a>
CREDITS
Producer: Michael English
Music: <a href="https://home96.bandcamp.com/" data-airgap-id="16">Home</a>
Commitment: Mental Work believes in an inclusive and diverse mental health workforce. We honour the strength, resilience, and invaluable contributions of mental health workers with lived experiences of mental illness, disability, neurodivergence, LGBTIQA+ identities, and diverse culture and language. We recognise our First Nations colleagues as Traditional Custodians of the land and pay respect to Elders past, present, and emerging. Mental Work is recorded on unceded Whadjuk Noongar boodja.
Disclaimer: Mental Work provides informational content. Mental Work is not a psychological service and being a listener or guest does not establish a therapeutic relationship. Content should not be considered a replacement for professional consultation or therapy. All views expressed are personal, subject to change, and do not represent those of any affiliated employer, service, or organisation past or present. Efforts are made to ensure accuracy, but opinions may not always align with fact. Listeners are encouraged to thoughtfully assess the information presented and report any inaccuracies or concerns via <a href="mailto:mentalworkpodcast@gmail.com" data-airgap-id="17">email</a>. Further information can be found <a href="https://www.mentalworkpodcast.com/p/disclaimer/" data-airgap-id="18">here</a>.

Working well with couples who stonewall, withdraw, and shut down (with Marie Vakakis)

Bron is joined by Krasi Kirova (Clinical Psychologist) to chat about identifying coercive control in the therapy room. Krasi shares her own '3Ds' framework, built from years of clinical work, to help clinicians name abuse that doesn't always look obvious.

They chat about:
👉🏽 Krasi's '3Ds' framework: Disrespect, Disempowerment and Distortion
👉🏻 Why coercive control is so often missed by psychologists
👉 The concept of "perspecticide" and how abusers distort reality
👉🏿 Practical questions to ask clients who might be experiencing it

Guest: Krasi Kirova, Clinical psychologist

LINKS
Learn more with Krasi! She has an online course for psychologists & mental health practitioners on recognising coercive control, available here.
Krasi's website
DV Alert training - Free training on domestic abuse in Australia
Safe and Equal (formerly Domestic Violence Resource Centre Victoria)
Safe and Together Institute
See What You Made Me Do by Jess Hill - Highly recommended book!
Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft
Laura Richards - Resources including the Domestic Abuse, Stalking and Honour Based Violence (DASH 2009-2025) Risk Identification, Assessment and Management Model
Emma Katz's Substack on decoding coercive control
Ramani Durvasula

THE END BITS

Mental Work is the podcast for psychologists about the realities of working in mental health, with an early-career focus. Hosted by psychologist/researcher Dr Bronwyn Milkins.

Support the show by buying me a virtual coffee ☕🍵

Have a question, episode idea or just want to say hi? DM Bron on Instagram, leave a comment on the Spotify episode, or email mentalworkpodcast@gmail.com

Apply to be a guest / YouTube (with captions & transcript) / Website

CREDITS

Producer: Michael English

Music: Home

Commitment: Mental Work believes in an inclusive and diverse mental health workforce. We honour the strength, resilience, and invaluable contributions of mental health workers with lived experiences of mental illness, disability, neurodivergence, LGBTIQA+ identities, and diverse culture and language. We recognise our First Nations colleagues as Traditional Custodians of the land and pay respect to Elders past, present, and emerging. Mental Work is recorded on unceded Whadjuk Noongar boodja.

Disclaimer: Mental Work provides informational content. Mental Work is not a psychological service and being a listener or guest does not establish a therapeutic relationship. Content should not be considered a replacement for professional consultation or therapy. All views expressed are personal, subject to change, and do not represent those of any affiliated employer, service, or organisation past or present. Efforts are made to ensure accuracy, but opinions may not always align with fact. Listeners are encouraged to thoughtfully assess the information presented and report any inaccuracies or concerns via email. Further information can be found here.

Bron is joined by Krasi Kirova (Clinical Psychologist) to chat about identifying coercive control in the therapy room. Krasi shares her own '3Ds' framework, built from years of clinical work, to help clinicians name abuse that doesn't always look obvious.
They chat about: 👉🏽 Krasi's <a href="https://courses.kirovapsychology.com.au/course/recognising-the-patterns-of-emotional-abuse-and-coercive-control">'3Ds' framework</a>: Disrespect, Disempowerment and Distortion 👉🏻 Why coercive control is so often missed by psychologists 👉 The concept of "perspecticide" and how abusers distort reality 👉🏿 Practical questions to ask clients who might be experiencing it
Guest: <a href="https://www.kirovapsychology.com.au">Krasi Kirova</a>, Clinical psychologist
LINKS
<ul>
<li>Learn more with Krasi! She has an <a href="https://courses.kirovapsychology.com.au/course/recognising-the-patterns-of-emotional-abuse-and-coercive-control">online course</a> for psychologists &amp; mental health practitioners on recognising coercive control, available&nbsp;<a href="https://courses.kirovapsychology.com.au/course/recognising-the-patterns-of-emotional-abuse-and-coercive-control">here</a>.</li>
<li><a href="https://kirovapsychology.com.au">Krasi's website</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.dvalert.org.au/">DV Alert training</a> - Free training on domestic abuse in Australia</li>
<li><a href="https://safeandequal.org.au/">Safe and Equal</a> (formerly Domestic Violence Resource Centre Victoria)</li>
<li><a href="https://safeandtogetherinstitute.com/">Safe and Together Institute</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/see-what-you-made-me-do/">See What You Made Me Do by Jess Hill</a> - Highly recommended book!</li>
<li><a href="https://lundybancroft.com/books/">Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.thelaurarichards.com/">Laura Richards</a> - Resources including the Domestic Abuse,&nbsp;<a href="https://www.dashriskchecklist.com/resources/stalking">Stalking</a>&nbsp;and&nbsp;<a href="https://www.dashriskchecklist.com/resources/honour-based-abuse">Honour Based Violence&nbsp;</a>(DASH 2009-2025) Risk Identification, Assessment and Management Model</li>
<li><a href="https://dremmakatz.substack.com/">Emma Katz's Substack</a> on decoding coercive control</li>
<li><a href="https://doctor-ramani.com/">Ramani Durvasula</a></li>
</ul>
THE END BITS
Mental Work is the podcast for psychologists about the realities of working in mental health, with an early-career focus. Hosted by psychologist/researcher <a href="https://www.mentalworkpodcast.com/about/" data-airgap-id="8">Dr Bronwyn Milkins</a>.
Support the show by <a href="https://www.buymeacoffee.com/mentalwork" data-airgap-id="9">buying me a virtual coffee</a> ☕🍵
Have a question, episode idea or just want to say hi? <a href="https://www.instagram.com/_mentalworkpodcast/" data-airgap-id="10">DM Bron on Instagram</a>, leave a comment on the <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/5ifKADwT3mw6yYDZb9rHji" data-airgap-id="11">Spotify episode</a>, or <a href="mailto:mentalworkpodcast@gmail.com" data-airgap-id="12">email mentalworkpodcast@gmail.com</a>
<a href="https://www.podpage.com/mentalwork/p/guest/" data-airgap-id="13">Apply to be a guest</a> / <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@MentalWorkPodcast" data-airgap-id="14">YouTube (with captions &amp; transcript)</a> / <a href="https://www.mentalworkpodcast.com/" data-airgap-id="15">Website</a>
CREDITS
Producer: Michael English
Music: <a href="https://home96.bandcamp.com/" data-airgap-id="16">Home</a>
Commitment: Mental Work believes in an inclusive and diverse mental health workforce. We honour the strength, resilience, and invaluable contributions of mental health workers with lived experiences of mental illness, disability, neurodivergence, LGBTIQA+ identities, and diverse culture and language. We recognise our First Nations colleagues as Traditional Custodians of the land and pay respect to Elders past, present, and emerging. Mental Work is recorded on unceded Whadjuk Noongar boodja.
Disclaimer: Mental Work provides informational content. Mental Work is not a psychological service and being a listener or guest does not establish a therapeutic relationship. Content should not be considered a replacement for professional consultation or therapy. All views expressed are personal, subject to change, and do not represent those of any affiliated employer, service, or organisation past or present. Efforts are made to ensure accuracy, but opinions may not always align with fact. Listeners are encouraged to thoughtfully assess the information presented and report any inaccuracies or concerns via <a href="mailto:mentalworkpodcast@gmail.com" data-airgap-id="17">email</a>. Further information can be found <a href="https://www.mentalworkpodcast.com/p/disclaimer/" data-airgap-id="18">here</a>.

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