This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholtz on Boomberg Radio. This week on the podcast, I have a special guest. Her name is Kara Swisher. And if you are remotely interested in anything related to technology, media, venture capital, CEO's privacy, the weaponization of social media, and just about anything else you might have seen about technology, well then you're in for quite the treat. We went for about eight hours. We took time out for sleeping and meals and basically covered everything, uh from the rise of technology, how people completely did not see this coming, what technology is going to do to us in the future, and who the hell is this Scott Galloway guy anyway, So I could tell you all about it, but rather than do that, I'm just gonna shut up and say my conversation with Kara Swisher. This is Master's in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. I'm Barry Ridholts. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My extra special guests this week is Kara Swisher. She is the co founder of Recode, sold recently to Vox. Before that, she was the longstanding technology journalist along with Walt Mossburg over at the Wall Street Journal. She is the author of a number of books, including How Steve Case Beat Bill Gates and its sequel, There Must Be a Pony in Here Somewhere. She won the Gerald Loebe Award for Excellence in Business Journalism and is the co host of one of my favorite podcasts, Pivot with Scott Galloway. Kara Swisher. Welcome to Bloomberg. I'm very impressive with myself. Well, you have a nice list of accomplishments. I was discussed saying your work with somebody and they said, she's really a journalist, right, And I'm like, well, she's also an entrepreneur. She's been very forward in terms of the conference business, in terms of um, the media business, which she turned into a platform. I don't know if it was ever publicly released. Um what Recode was sold? Was that always private? Yeah? It was. It was a start up. Yeah, we sold ABO four or five years ago. It was we had been funded by NBC and Terry Samuel, who's taken ill now but he uh. We we got twelve million dollars from them, and at the time that was a lot, but pretty soon it was it wasn't a lot. A lot of content companies. It was sort of this big boom in investing in content, and many of my competitors got four or five times what I got six months later as a VC investment. Yeah, we didn't have a VC. It was NBC and Terry he's a media investor, you know. And so I looked around. I said this, I can't compete with this much money. It's it's a bubble. And so I sold Box. I looked, I talked to a number of companies. I sold really quickly after founding Well. No, I was at All Things D for a dozen or more years, which was within the Wall Street Journal. UM, and I was at the in the journal for about a dozen more than a dozen years, and but we had a skunk works inside the journal, so it was owned by the journal, but we ran it without their input. Really yeah, it was great, yeah, and they were good and bad in different ways, but um and then we left because we had some problems with them, and then had it funded and we were going to do it independently, but then I was like, no way, this is gonna things. You have to be really dynamic when you're an entrepreneur and realize, you know, if someone if your competitors all have three times the amount of funding. You do. You have a problem. You can't be that good. And so especially in content because it's about hiring talent. And so we sold really quickly within a year to Vox Media. Like yeah, I was like, you know, I'm I'm really good that way. I know when to move. So that wasn't hundreds of millions of dollars that It wasn't okay, and I just no, I haven't I'm not going to hear but I'm not going to going to it. But it's not. It doesn't worth anything. I own the stock and Box Media whatever Box Media cells. So it was so I won't harangue you about this, but was I'm assuming this was an all stock trans Yes, it was. We decided that O. Yeah, we could have gotten cash, but we I felt like why not, Like if I'm an entrepreneur, I should own the shop. And I so, I mean, I have quite a bit of stock in Box Media. We'll see what happens. I mean obviously now content, uh, content is now the blooms off the rose there and you know Box is quite healthy. But you know the others bezz feed and and Mike of course closed, some of these others closed and so and all of media is under stress and so, you know, especially we're going to a recession and stuff. So it's just whatever the stocks worth. We'll see, we'll see how it goes. Quite interesting. But I'm very well paid, Barry, don't worry about it. I do, okay, you do, okay. So let's talk a little bit about the early parts of your career you come out of. Now, I know you have a mastress from Colombia. Was that the journalism school or journalism school? Yeah? I went to Georgetown School Foreign Service, which was in Washington, d C. It was actually my backup school. Now it's a very top ranking school. But at the time, and can I tell you you and I are not all that far apart in age the people who came into because of the demographics into college forty years ago, we're dealing with um relatively easy admissions. And then the boom followed. It was the echo boom made it much more challenging to get in. I didn't get in. Everybody didn't get at Stanford. I wanted to go to Stanford, but my brother went to Stanford. UM. But I I got into Georgetown, and it was in the school FORIGN service, and I wanted to be I've said this many times, a spy. I wanted to work for the CIA, and I want to do analysis, very similar what I do now, reporting an analysis, just with no one shooting it. Yes, exactly, Well, you never know, um and so and I it was very interested in the military too, in military intelligence. And I was gay at the time. That was impossible you could get into the military. You couldn't you had. It was don't ask, don't tell. Under the Clinton ministry and so I always tell. So it was really hard to do that. Um and then in the CIA, you haven't asked, ridiculous tell. It's such a insane thing. Can I tell you? It's so shocking. What right, It's so shocking to look back just twenty years and say, what the hell are we thinking? Don't ask? What are we still thinking? There's all these attacks on transgender people. Now, well we you know, we're in an alternative timeline. Now I'll discuss that later. We're not you think, so this is just what America is like. I'm sorry, you know, put a mirror to our faces. There's a great there's a great series going on. It's the six nine series in the New York Times, and it's that. Let me just say, this is what we are, and if you it's part of us, it's not every part of us, but it's not this dream of being this incredibly meritocurtency with everybody getting a chance. It's just not. So. So let me fast forward to a question I'm gonna was planning on asking you later. How much of this that we're discussing here is a function that forty years ago, if you were a crazy um nazi, racist, homophobe, whatever it was, you would be the guy mumbling to yourself outside the library, but you didn't have the ability to coordinate nationally well that there were tons of them and people. The things people said to me thirty years ago about being gay was just astonishing. Like today would not be allowed obviously, or in some places it would, but it was. The change has been so drastic around gay people. But at the time, I couldn't be what I wanted. I wanted to be in the military, my dad was in the military, and I just couldn't. There was, you know, I really wanted to be like compared like you know, people always surprised I'm like, I'm really quite. I really think the military can be great in a lot of ways, has a lot of problems like anything else. Um, but you know, yeah that Scott was talking about that the other day, and before the sort of the ability to unify and have have places to meet for people who have issues racists like white supremacists, the Internet has helped them drastically. And I talked about that in my first book in ninety seven. This was a place where you can either gather for good like quilters or people parents and you know, people who want to know, well, these communities about different. What happened is all these people were and wherever Idaho, wherever, they're everywhere, they just were wolves. Yeah, and so now they can find places to gather. It's it's they create these gathering places which and with a lot of tools from video too, and so it's a really great place to radicalize people. You know, that's the problem with the Internet. This tool it can be you know, it's like a knife. It can be used in a lot of different ways, and so in a lot of ways it's used to kill people. So I've watched your thought evolve on whether or not this is in response to most recently to eight chan and read it basically saying we should not be a gathering place for white supremacists and others who are plotting to kill people. You've kind of moved a little bit about whether companies like registrars domain registrars or or I'm moved. I think they should take them off. I don't. I've never that's not an evolution. No, No, I'm actually were more of a First Amenda you misreading it because I think I find the intellectual capacity of most people still on Valley to be light, you know, in terms of ethics, in terms of historical knowledge and everything, and so they have this I call it libertarian light. You know, they're like, I'm a libertarian, I'm a first man. I'm like, explain it for me, and you know, I have studied this so I know what it is. And they're like, anybody can say anything. I'm like, no, that's not what the First Amendment says. It says Congress shall make no law. Just Congress, not Twitter, not Facebook. Not like they're just so like there's many people and they're highly educated in certain ways, but in general, it's libertarian light. You know what I mean, people should do what they want. That's like, that's what a twelve three year old says. I can do what I want, but you can't. And so I think legitimate companies like Facebook, like Twitter, like Google have responsibility. And I've always thought companies, whether they're chemical companies or Wall Street companies or Bloomberg or any or Vox, we have a responsibility to society. You know, legitimate companies the others can create these things. But it doesn't mean that this this this idea that you collect all the money and have none of the responsibilities, okay, because it's not okay. Now they can do it, but I can say this is not okay, quite quite interesting. You know, you can decide who you would do business with. I don't like, you know, I like you can decide who you do business with. And you know, cloud Flare is the company that I wrote about recently in the New York Times. I read a column their weekly. Um, you know, they this guy who I've interviewed several times, Matthew Prince. Um, you know, he he's been sort of he's changed my I've suddenly realized this is terrible, and I'm like, welcome to the world. Like, have you not been paying attention and they cut off a jan um. But you know, people can make their decisions. They just have to live with their decisions. If you want to facilitate white supremacy, own it, like own what you're doing, and that's what they'd like to do. They'd like to do it. And then say, why are you criticizing me? So they you know, expressing my first memory. I love the fact that the Internet identifies all these people who are participating in these white supremacy marches and basically calls out their bosses and gets them fired. Yeah, you want to march here, go ahead, just don't expect to serve star. It's just people. People can do whatever they want. It's just you know, the whole controversy on Alex Jones for example. You know, this vile, vile human being, just on every measure, he's a vile person. He can have a website anywhere on the Internet. No one's stopping him. People who make these tools can either decide to kick him off or not. That's that's the deal, right. So and their commercial businesses and if I people choose not to do business with them, they're not nothing wrong with companies like that. Advertisers pointing out to advertisers pointing out to whatever, it's not it's the way, you know, boycotts have gone on for century. It's not. This is not a new thing kind of thing. And I think it's just becomes so um amplified and weaponized in this time because it's so viral, it's so so the news we get is so twitchy and so quick that people get and and the emotions get so easily in a rage that people think it's different. Um. But what's interesting is that they um, you know, they they have their spaces. When when I was when the Alex Jones things was happening, I was talking to all the major platforms and they're like, well, everybody has a right, you know, to have a place. I'm like, but you're going to kick him off just so you know, because he's broken your rules. Like they made rules. What's the point of your stupid rules if you're not going to enforce them? Well, you know it's complicated. I'm like, no, you made rules, he broke on. Why isn't he off? Like you know, and they had all these weird rules, and it's like, if you're gonna make rules, keep to them. You have a responsibility to the society at large, and you know, in things that are pretty much you know, there's all kinds of edge cases, there's all kinds of like whatever they can be, but there's lots of places where people to go. You know, for example, like with with Twitter, there they've it's been so haphazard with them that you know that we've kicked off Melo whatever, you know, we kick him off, but not the sky. But we kicked this person, but not that guy. It's like, it just doesn't make any sense to people. And I think if everyone understood the rules and then when you break them, that's that what they've managed to do is make people think these things are public squares when they're private squares and they own everything and they get paid for everything, and they don't have any responsibility for monitoring them. So they've made these very filthy public private squares and it's the only place to gather. And then they say, we don't have any responsibility for cleaning. I just happened this morning to be scanning Twitter and I saw sleeping giants. Oh him, Yeah, he's great, right, just mentioned that last night on Tucker Calson show, Dell was advertising, and you know, you think that a big broad name like that would be a little savvy er. Oh you know what, they wait until the things blow over and then they go back that. You know, they just want to sell. But but here's the thing you're gonna get cold out for that. That's right, that's right, this is the world. Guess what. And that's you know that happened before. Remember Anita Brian the orange juice thing with gay That's right, everyone was dumping orange juice? Was that unfair to Anita Brian? It doesn't matter she had her opinion. This is what it costs to have her opinion. And I think, um, you know, every everything costs, and people don't realize that like they We live in a world where everyone's I can say whatever I want, like you certainly can, but it certainly costs the same with me, same with everybody else. Be an adult about it. What you're doing. Let's talk a little bit about what you're doing, um with your career now and how you began. What was it like in the early nineties covering technology. I don't think people there's nobody covering that writes it was me and some other guy. I don't think people really understood how important technology was going to be to society, the economy. Everything it had been covered, you know, chips and Microsoft essentially in software, chips and software. We'd been either covered as a as a as a as a product issue like we made Windows ten. Here's the news story, which is not a news story when they at least something, but it used to be UM and so you know when the hoop la on that was insane. I was at that event, UM, So you know, I think what was interesting. What I thought about it is this was an entirely new industry being created, the Internet industry, and you had to treat it like the beginnings of electricity or the beginning of TV or the beginning of radio. And so that's how I looked at it. And so one of the things I told when I first started covering at the Washing Post and then later at the Wall Street Journal, what I told Manners is I'm not going to tell you how the watchworking. I'll tell you what time it is, and that's what the most important story, like who are these people? And I spent a lot of time understanding the culture that was growing because it was all new. Like the I was there, I wrote one of the first stories when the Internet was commercialized. When I was at the Washington Post. I think, I mean, nobody was paying attention to, you know, what al Gore was doing. Yes, I was covering it then, and so I really there was a moment where I was like, this is going to be the most important change in media and communications in history, like so far, and there's been a lot. I thought, catch on, Yeah I did. I kept saying, you know, two things I spent a lot of time doing is talking about um. I told I tell a story that absolutely was a moment where I downloaded a Calvin and Hobbs book onto a server and I messed up the server. It was so big, you know, and the pictures and the person who was running the technology was like what did you do? And I'm like, I downloaded a book, I put it in Like what you that? And then like he's like so what, I'm like, so what don't you get at you idiot? Like you know, this is gonna everything is going to be digitized. And I kept saying everything is going to be digitized everything, And I say this over and over again. Everything that can be digitized will be digitized. Jobs, everything, It eats everything, not just Mark andres and software is eating the world. Digital is eating the world. You know, you sound a bit like Andresen who describes software software, but he describes entrepreneurs that he knows he's onto something when they're trying to explain their business to a VC and they get frustrated and angry, like, how do you not see this? It's so obvious? You basically just said, well it was, and it was. I would run around saying this and everyone's like, what are you talking about. I'm like, there's not gonna be newspapers. There's not gonna be like I would do that like the newspaper people. And then the second part was mobile. And when I got to the journal, I would just wrote a columnist the other day and the Times about no one's going to own a car, which caused quite a lot of consternation because like people in the Midwestern or with pickup truck struck, I want my pickup trup. I said, have your pickup truck. But it's gonna be like only like you don't understand, like even you will not have a car like cities, absolutely not you. Very soon after it'll be all automated and everything else or they'll be floating or whatever and so um. So I wrote a piece when I write when I got to the journal in called cutting the Cord. Yeah, and I had a picture of me with chords and I had a big you know places, and I said, you will not have a landline phone. You will carry around this device. It will get smaller. And because they were big at the time, you know you small and tomorrow there will be your entire computer. It will be on the go, be mobile. You will this will be the center of your news. And it was when I go back and read it, I'm like, wow, that was pretty smart. Good um. But I kept insisting it and it made so much sense, like it obviously like when I think about cars, or when I think about certain jobs being eliminated. Like I was trying to alert the other and I'm like, your job is going to go like it's so patterned match. AI will take over everything you do except for the creativity part. No, it's you know, I think I said, everything you do is digitized, anything that's by road, anything that's mechanical, not just mechanical, it is so much more that really you could apply AI principles to a robotic, any of the coming things, robotics, automation, uh, self driving, um AI. It's just anything that can apply to it does. So I think about though, what can change, what's not going to be here? Whenever I get pushed back when we discuss future technology, my favorite question to ask people is, well, do you think people will still be driving their own cars in a hundred years? No, of course not. Okay, so next year, yeah I'll still be. So really, the debate is weird. When does that transition take place? And people can picture, but they can picture twelve years from now. That's too difficult. Yeah, it's taking place. It's place, and you know, it's the business model to the business model of not owning a car and just using Uber or some other source. Have something come by. That's hard for a lot of people to conceptualize, even though it appears they're already doing it. It's they've already started to do. People do things without realizing. There's an I forget, which I think it's I can't remember the poet Past are made by walking. That's what's happening here. Past made by walking, and so I just like I'm going to write a recap of what's happened since I got rid of I saw in my car and I have no vehicle, Like I have no vehicle, and the other like I called someone, I'm like, oh, we have to go get this. I'm like, oh, I don't have a car. How am I going to do that? Like, you know, it doesn't mean you're not going to drive a car, it doesn't mean you're not going to rent a car. I've just rented a car up and I'm going to try to put put it in terms of money, what I what I spent for that, what I used to buy a car with. And when I called the insurance company, I've had a car, you know, an insurance policy for years forever. And uh, they're like, what's the car you're replacing with? I go, no car, and they're like what I said, I never am going to own a car. And it was the most fascinating discussion. I said, you better watch out for your business because I'm not going to insurance. But then I sat down to breakfast with someone who's a lawyer and said, you know, when you get on a scooter, if you don't have car insurance, who covers if you hit someone when you're on a scooter like tho. I was like, oh my god, I do need interest, so you need insurance something different? Well, but it gets taken away when you don't have a car. It was fascinating and I'm like, oh my god, a whole new business. Like but I was thinking, all car insurance will go away. What will happen to those people? But then there's the only business of people who are on the move. You have to be covered anyway. It was just interesting. Your amex probably covers you if you rent it, rent the scooter, don't know, but it's like, that's the whole thing. But there's whole new businesses to be creative that. Immediately I was like, wow, I wouldn't it be interesting to go into the insurance business without only a car, but having a mobile insurance, a moving insurance, like you physically moving through the world. However you decide to do it. If you get into a vertical lift and takeoff vehicles, you know there's are great, They're going to be cool. I was mentioning, I've been waiting for them for fIF They're coming. They'll be in San Francisco first, so you come and ride them and there are I've been tracking that There are a number of companies that are relatively close, including one that's an old battery electric version. Um, I'm going to stick with it. But we're still I'm waiting for my blade runner vehicle where the projection of the highway is just a three three dimensional hologram that you fly through. But hey, that was supposed to be. Here are Hollywood people telling you, all right, so when are we going to have When are we gonna have personalized VTOL cars and taxis? You will be dead, Berry, you will never experience. They may try one, but you're not going to be So we're see. I agree with you. I think it's less than a hundred years but more than a decade. And I think it will be a slow transition because people very local, lester. They'll be human, that's right, that's another thing life extension. But there'll be human and cars at the same time. Just like here in New York. You know, there used to be the elevated the trains, and when they first started, a lot of people got run over by them when they were down on the ground before they elevated where the high line was. That's why they built the high line because all these people are getting killed because they were like, what's this. We have horses, and so horses would bang into these electric vehicles all the time, and then there weren't horses, and so that's what you know. There will be human drivers, but then there won't be like that's what's going out. And so I think that's what you have to think about, is this transition period when and it doesn't mean people won't drive in certain places or it's not, it'll just be different. It'll be just a different experience. So you go from the Washington Post to the Wall Street Journal, is that Mossberg got me there? My my most important mentor so now he was covering technology. He was the guy het a technology column, uh that he wrote for many years. He started it um. His first line of his first one was called personal Technology in the Wall Street Journal. And as he had covered the Defense Department, he had to the State Department. He was, you know, Washington reporter and he just was st geeky. And the first line of his column, which I think was still relevant today, was technology is too hard to use and it's not your fault, which I loved, which is like so smart because they were sort of testing you, you know, with the products that again. But okay, um, so he started that, and so he was there and I interviewed him for my book on I well, because he was the only person I perceived that understood the change. Like everybody else was like, Oh, it's just online services. We'll still have Time magazine. They're so important. I was like, no, my magazine is over, like you know, like you know, and he's the only one who got it. And he and I really clicked immediately, and uh started. He got me to come to the Journal to write about this because he thought the Journal was not writing about it properly. And I understood it, and I knew them all. I knew Jeff Bezos. I knew Jeff Bezos. Wasn't Jeff Bezos for a long time. Now he's Jeff Bezos Prime back right whatever. He was just a guy. He was just a startup guy that were really bad pants at a pants. Yeah, a lot of plead becky pants. Um, you know, it's so funny. They were all like the Google guys were in a garage, the um, you know, just all of them were like Ellen I met when he did this thing called x dot com. He you know, he had a full head of hair and was kind of geeky, like what was what was elan? Originally? Was he part of the PayPal No, he had a company called x dot com and that was a payment company, and he and they fought a lot PayPal PayPal, there was that group, and then they they so he eventually they did march, but there were two separate companies and they were quite quite unpleasant rivals. And then they got together. So a lot of people told that their big genius wasn't selling it to eBay. Right. A lot of people came out of that PayPal group, Mosque and Peter Thiel and a whole run of folks in the tech world trace back to that. So so I remember Walt's early works specifically as a reviewer of services and computers and technology, but you really came in covering the Internet business, the of of the Internet, not so much as reviewer, but as a straight up economic journalist, financial journal I was a financial journalist. I think I had an interest in the products, and of course, you know, well it was great to have Walter's de partner eventually because it was he had that part of it covered. Um, he's a reporter to by the way, like he was. One of the great things about Walt Musburg as a reviewer was that he was a reporter first and foremost, and so he reported out these products. A lot of people who covered tech we're just fan boys and just you know, just ridiculous. And well, sometimes he loved stuff, sometimes he disliked it. So it was so fair, you know, in terms of how he did it. And I came in and covered the business of it and tried to understand the stock stuff and because there was a lot of you know, early froth around a lot of these companies and what was what was not true, what was true, what was a Ponzi scheme? What was not? And so I covered these early businesses, and I was quite bullish on the whole big air sector. A lot of reporters who covered the media at the time kept calling telling me I was covering CB radio or a fad, and I didn't think it was a bad I remember, those are One of the guys who called the CB rate to me is now working for a digital content company and he's like Mr Internet Now. It's always amazing how how people are still willing to believe whatever it is that keeps their paycheck flowing. Well, I was very worried. That's the reason I left the Washington Post because I was like, when I loved Don Graham, who's the owner of the Washington Post, but when I left, and he's such a like an incredibly cordial and just a fine person. And he said, you know, Carol, why are you leaving? And I said, the waters rising and you're on the lower floodplain. And what was their response to that? And he was like ha ha ha, And I'm like, no, really, you better because I had covered retail. I had covered retails, So I covered Walmart's entrance into the retail space, the death of wonderful retailers like Heckinger's and h. Woody's, Woodward Lowthrop and garf Ankles were the two like the death of depart You could see what was happening in the original problem was Walmart, you know, and the big box stores. But then it became Amazon and you could see glimmers of it with with Craigslist and hitting the classified business. Amazon still wasn't yet they but you could see it see where it was going. And so um, so I was like Wall Street Journal has a more defensible position in media right now. Um, and so I went there, I thought. But then the Washington Post, of course has revived itself with ownership by bring it full circle. He has done a wonderful job. I used to full disclosure, I used to contribute to the Washington Post up until Um. I think that the Washington Post has reasserted itself as one of the three major papers in New York, and you've written for all three figured of economics. They figured out it's not just that it's a rich guy owning, it's actually making money. They it's not none of these businesses, not Times. They're not like massive money making throwing off money business. Street Journal always had a million subscribers, which is online subscribers, which is a lot for probably The Times isn't the best in this area. Well, post Trump election, their subscription base has exploded. Also, they've done a good job with a product like you can't you can't separate the product from the text. Their product is really quite good. And so I think a lot of these people figured it out, and with the help of Bezos, who wasn't going to be a twitchy owner. Neither of the Grahams, whether they were wonderful owners. Um, I think that they sort of made it through the difficult period and it just rationalize what they were doing, and I could find I can tell you every time I get my update from Amazon that my bill for the Washington Post has been passing stuff like that. That's an enormous benefit for stuff like that like that, just great journalism, great product. I think of things always in terms of product. Is that a good product? Like when I make stuff, this is a good product. And if it's not a good product, I stopped making it. And then, unlike a lot of journalists, I'll stop doing something if I don't think it's a it's something that's worthwhile to the users, the readers, or whoever is doing it. What what products? What products do you think are really strong these days that recode box is doing? And what are you watching? Because hey, let's see how this developed? Is this too new? Is this too different? Um? I'm i gonna tell you a new idea I have that I love. We thought it the other night. I was standing there and like, oh, this, well if it's not out yet, but it's not. But I was thinking, this is what I'm gonna do next. I'm always making something else, like I'm always look when I started doing podcasting. For example, UM, when I started doing Recode, everyone was like, what are you doing. I'm like, no, We're gonna have a voicey news based journalistic base but voicy, funny site. Everyone's copied it since like what we did, So it was Walton, I really did pioneer. When you say voicey, what do you mean by that? Like Yahoo? When I was covering Yahoo, Yahoo sucks, here's why narky. No, no, no, we backed it with journalism, you know what I mean? Or blunt blunt like guess what the guy who's running Uber ain't going to be running Uber And here's why. You know what I mean, like saying things journalists say to each other, but backing it up. And one of the things that I had was it used to be at the journal it's the to be sure statement that's always in these stupid stories, to be sure. Like when I was covering this company within it was that's the way they yes, like this online grocery that what was it? That first there was one for it, a lot of money behind it. Listen, it's now figured out itself. At the time, it was an insane like you looked at the numbers, You're like are you kidding me? And Cosmo, Yeah, that one one of them. And in New York City like it was, it was you just sat there like you're losing so much money on every delivery. It doesn't mean it didn't work. Prime to work like you know what I mean, there's not there's ways to figure it out. The idea was a good one. I always try to separate the idea again because he he talks about Chewi being the modern dot com and now ju Wayne Wright, who was the entrepremour behind pet stot com, is now with the real real What an amazing business that is, right, So that's the whole point. And so so when I was writing about it, it was you. I was like, this is this is this is terrible business. They can scant go public. This is insane. And the editor at the journal was like, well you have to, like, you know, point out that this you could be wrong. I'm like, I'm not wrong, this is like and and they were like they're like, ha been And then you have to do this to be sure. Some people say that this business and I was like, to be sure some idiots say and it was like, let me tut these idiots. But but then I ran my own site, and then I could say that like I can say that because it's my site. And so we sort of pioneered that and then it changed like everyone copied it. That's what always happened. And then it wasn't the right like having analog websites that people go to, it's a losing game in in in the advertising business online. So then I was like sitting there and I saw what is an analog site? You mean like meat spaces or what. No. No, no, just like the way we were doing recode ten years ago, we changed it like it shouldn't look like a newspaper online. It should be something not just that. No, we we did something pioneering, but then it didn't work anymore, right, and we tried something else, like I think the ability to try something else, and so it just it's a long way of getting into the podcast. I was sitting there, I'm like, I like these these mobile devices are now great, these apps are now great. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do interviews because because I had my code conference, the Code conference at Walt and I did and I was like, why not extend three sixty five days a year? Like I can only do seventeen interviews a CODE. It's always Elon Mosk or Mark zucker from but there's always fascinating people that one like you're doing here, And so I was like, there's so many cool people that I could do the same thing. People love the CODE conference. Why not bring it out and make it free and make it sense. So I started doing these interviews and I remember like I literally had an intern in me do it, and I'm running like I'm the head of the site and I'm like, I'm not doing that anymore. I'm doing this, And so we started doing it and a lot of people had opinions are like, you know, people aren't going to listen for an hour. I'm like, yeah, they are, like you know they I was like I literally had that yes exactly people, And I'm like, you don't know, give me. People are in cars, people are on bikes, and people are in treadmills. Millennials like snack a Well, no they don't. They're smart. People are smart. So it was like, well, I don't want these people who like snack ables. They don't listen to me anyway. So it was like I literally spent a lot of time and I was like, I'm certain I'm right about this. But then when we did the Galloway thing, Scott came on the show because I had heard him at a at a conference. I thought it was brilliant. It's got Galloway, wo would you pivot with? And know I had interviewed Ellen Zuckerberg, like the head of Google everything, and the numbers for Scott when I saw them come in off the freaking chart. And also he predicted the Amazon whole food That thing happened the week that is such, predicted it a year in advance, goes on your show a week in advance and does it, and a week later, bang, and people lost minds. People like, oh, he works in branding. He must have known. He wrote about it literally twelve so anyway, so he so that show went off the charts before that happened too, and I was like, Hey, I'm gonna have one again and see what happens again because it was our rapport, our discussion. He was so insightful and smart, and so I was like, we're going to start another podcast and it's going to be only thirty minutes, maybe twenty minutes, and it's not gonna be long. It's gonna be quick, fast, topical in this and now something like it needs to be an hour. I'm like, no, it doesn't. It needs to be this link because this is what this is what it is, and it creates a little scarcity, keeps people coming exactly. We may do another one during the week. That's it. That's the talks. We've got a lot of advertising. A yeah, um, and so what what you know? You just have to be like you have to know what you are or know what you're It's like cooking, Like I'm making a cake now, and a lot of people want to say what you really should do is be boring you. I'm like, yeah, but I'm making a cake and like, but be burging on. I'm like, yeah, go make your own. And so I think people who are good at product know what the product is and then are willing to make changes to it when it doesn't work. So our conference, for example, I'm still trying to figure out what we've had seventeen years making so much money at these conferences. By the way, podcasts make a fortune because I think of things and would hope businesses all the time. So anyway, so one of the things like I'm Robb rethinking, like what isn't conference? We have seventeen really successful years, but it's changed. So I'm like, I sit along, you know, and even to the point and we're not doing this, But should I keep doing it? Is it the right thing anymore? What is the next thing? And so I'm constantly thinking, and that's why I come up with this new thing that I think is going to make a lot of money. Also tell us what it is. I'm not gonna tell you what it is. It's not that product. Well, when it comes out, you'll have to exist. It exists in Carra Swisher's break. That's it. So you got to be careful crossing. The thing that I think about what Walton I did is like when I think about what I'm really proud of is we created a lot of jobs for people, Like families lived on one idea that Walton I had in nineteen. Whenever we did a two thousand and two, Walton I thought of something in two two and dozens of people have jobs. It's fascinating to me to think that way. Like, and that was the all Things Digital platform for conferences. Yeah, all Things Digital conferences, you know, came out of a single idea how many conferences are you guys do in a year? Now, well, see, what is a conference? Right? Look we did this live a bunch of people in a room. Yeah, but I don't I don't think that way. Like we have the main conference, we have Code Commerce that's coming up in September, We've got code Media. Um. But then Scott and I did a live pivot the other day that was huge. We sold out fourteen seconds we sold that. So now I'm like, oh, live podcast things. You know, the pod saves America? I don't really for two years? Really well, but in a different like what should they be? Three d people? Should be five hundred people? Should you get sponsors? The sponsors were thrilled. Try y is is really been doing that for decades? Yes they have exactly, but but what about moving them around the country? Why not exactly? So I'm thinking about that. So is that a conference? It kind of is. What if you could add other things onto a live podcast? Put comics there, put like make it an event. What if you can add experiential pop ups to it. I'm like constantly thinking, like, what's the next version of analog gathering? That's smart? Smart is the one thing the brand is always The brands I'd like to make are always like what's smart? Like what do smart people want to listen to? What is additive to someone's life? Every time I get a tweet from someone around Pivot, I'm getting a lot of them around Pivot. I just really enjoy it and I always come up with an insight. I'm like, who can ask for more than that? What you're describing what you just did with Scott is quote an evening with I mean, that's how that's been, but it can be seen like and then then the other day I was like, we have to have swag. We can make a lot of money and swag, Like I'm always cut. That's what I want to think about. And one of the things I like to think about in products. Now we're gonna have swag. You can have. You'll give you one free, but only one. Uma. I never give away anything free. Um. The the things that I think about when they were thinking about products, is is it useful? Is it entertaining? Is it must have? If you have one of those things, you usually have a very successful projects. One. You don't need all three, but if you have all three, that's killer. It's a killer. You have two, but it has to be one of those three things, right, And you don't think like a journalist, you think like an entrepreneur, right exactly, And it's evident in your discussion. I am going to uh, I do journalism by the way you do journalism. I consume journalism. My extra special guest today is Kara Swisher. She is in desperate need of a real New York bagel and has been unable to find one. I'm to harsh your grin. Well, apparently that thing is a blasphemy over coming from Brooklyn. I never have lived. Well, there are no bagels in Brooklyn. I don't know what anybody could possibly fell in love with someone in Brooklyn. What can I say? Google best bagels in Brooklyn. You'll find a list anywhere along I know where they are there on Second Avenue in fifty I know where the bagels are so up here. So you mentioned you fell in love with someone in Brooklyn, and you mentioned I just mentioned Google. I gotta ask you a random question. Please your disclosures. You don't mince any words whatsoever. Fifteen years ago we did this. It's like, Hey, here's who my spouse is, Here's who she works. For here's this, I don't get paid. Her money is hers money is There's no conflict. That's like a really blunt, straightforward that was very innovative at the time. It was because we trusted readers and we wanted. You know, my ex was a very prominent executive at Google and then later became CTO of America. UM, I had to meaning she was working for the Obama White House as technology she's the chief Technology Officer in the United States. Um. But before that, she was a pretty prominent executive Megan Smith at Google. She she ran Google dot org. She was she bought things, she bought the Google Earth for them. I mean, she did a lot of stuff over there, and um, and so I wanted I actually urged her to go there when it was very small. Um, hey, these guys are onto something. Yes, I was like, these guys are special, Like you know, she was looking around she was running another company and good advice. So yeah, it was good advice. Thank You're welcome. Megan. She's a very lovely house in Washington, d C. Do to that, so she should have several wish I don't want to go into it. So anyway, she's doing just fine. Um. So so I wanted to disclose and you can't do that in a newspaper, and I thought, why not be cleared everybody? So we trust the reader too. We don't have to say. One of the things General's trying to do is like I'm completely even handed. It's like, no, you're not. You have things that you don't want people to grab onto them. I foresaw sort of this Twitter day where everybody could do gotcha to you, So before anybody could get you, just explain and then we trust the readers to be smart. And so that's Walton I did. We full disclosure on a lot of stuff right as much as we could, and there as much that was relevant I think was it was it and people love it. They just they like it. Again, it's a respect for readers that we think about that well, we don't think they're stupid. Well, that's important to actually let people think, um, you know what you're doing. You have nothing to hide, you know. It goes back to Hunter Thompson basically saying, hey, I'm not unbiased. If you are my biases, I'm Hunter S. Thompson. You'll figure it out. Let's let's talk a little bit about silicon Valley. You've lived in San Francisco for five years, right, we could talk about we can talk about this how much the city has changed. But let's let's go a little south down to the valley. Um, how has Silicon Valley changed over the past. It's just money, just massive amounts of massive amounts of capital and success has sort of and and and the influence and power. And I think one of the things that's interesting, sort of like I would be akin to watching Hollywood go from Orange Groves to the power Louis B. Mayer and stuff like that. And I think it was really you know, most of the people I had covered and now the captains of industry as the richest people in the world, by the way, on every list, the people they weren't that they were just startups. And so I think some of them have stayed true to the people they are. Others have been warped by money and not understanding their power and not understand the consequences of what they've built. Others have been, you know, plunged into these ridiculous wealth bubbles where they go from the airplane to the car to their home and they don't understand what they've done, Like they don't spend They surround themselves by people who's who's interest is in pleasing them. Um, it's often when then I run into him, like Mark Andrees and I have known each other since he was very young and I was very young, and you know, I think very few people he's like the genius, you know, Mark with his giant brain. But by the way, when I did my interview with him, I got all these emails complaining that they could not listen to it on two X because he speaks so quickly. But you know, he's like very few people will say something. I'm like, that's stupid, and he's like what, And I'm like, oh, I'm sorry. He's not used to hearing that, but he is. He's actually one of the people who will go back and forth. But you know, even like you know, just a lot of them, he's actually quite good. He he always thought a lot about himself, like and I don't mind that. Well, you have to in order to go out. And he was confident from the get go. Shouldn't have been um, well, he turned out tinsight bias he could should have. He's achieved a modicum of success, Like whatever, I don't care, right, exactly. But but but he wasn't what my pushback to you is, he wasn't an arrogant jerk about it and Silicon, well do tell but he was, Yes, he was just no, no, no, he's the same person. He's the same person, which I like. I appreciate someone like that. I appreciate like or Mark benny Off. I love talking to Mark ben right or um smart, insightful, insightful and he thinks of himself he does, but I enjoy talking to him. He's really like he is what he is like those people give us the list of arrogant jerks you enjoy speaking with. You know, very different people can be the different ways. You know, Larry Page, I don't know where he's gone to. He's hidden off, kind of disappeared, he has, but he's always was like that. He was always he was sort of a he can now afford to do that? Was it him or Surgery who was more of the serge was more of the quiet one. Larry is Larry, but Paige Rank was really his. Yes, Larry is really so brainy, so smart, so substantive, like really special mind. Um. But you know they're all different that there, they differ read but you know, and then you get all sort of the young startup people that are now older. You know, where do you put Peter Teal in this brilliant, brilliant guy appalling of points of view, many, many, many appalling points of view? Did you get around to reading conspiracy? I read his first of all, not his book, the book about the Gawker litigation, but you know that to me just sent me over the edge, like doing a secret lawsuit against someone if he really cared do it out in the public like that to me was the secret part to me was sneaky and awful. Ryan Holiday's book about that is so fascinating only because you learn, even with two people, it's impossible to keep a secret. It's it's astonishing. The Gawker litigation is just an excuse to describe the history of conspiracies. It's really anyway, it's interesting. You know, he's brilliant, but I don't agree with him almost everything. It's fun and funny, and you know I always I sort of poked at him quite a bit, and you know, he he's brilliant. He is brilliant, but really, some who else stands out to you in the valley visa The reason I think Peter Till's interesting is I'm always like hot, Like he wrote one book and I'm like it was very Yeah. I was like, oh, so many interesting things here, you know what I mean, I can't and then he he says a lot of things. I'm like, are you kidding me? You've got to be kidding. The relationship with Trump, Yeah, kind of surprising. That would you imagine from a guy who's railing about being oppressed as a gay man in Silicon Valley, he doesn't care talk about strange bedfellows. He doesn't care. It doesn't care. It doesn't care that those aren't his concerns, and I think they should be a concern. So that's kind of the old guard. What's who? Let's talk about the most recent round of companies. Really interesting entrepreneur. You've written about Travis Um. What are your thoughts about the whole frat scene at Uber. Well, I think he's a Dara is a very thoughtful and interesting person. I think he's got the person who took over Yeah, Dark Coast for sha. I think he's got a really tough economic question to solve there, because you don't think you could just do a whole bunch of rides at a loss, but make it up in volume. I know, I think they've got an economic problem and it's hard, and they've got competition. I believe in moats, you know, I think about moats. Amazon has built so many moats now they still have They're gonna have problems when when Amazon Web Services doesn't do as well. So they've got to really think about what their moats are. They've got a lot of them, um, and I think any business has to have a lot of moats, and I don't think there's as many moats around Ubers and the market saying that right now, right right, the market is si, well, they came out way too late, and they came out very pricey to begin with. The market is speaking if they would have, if they would have come out cheaper and come out earlier, maybe we be talking. I don't know. I think the economics are off. They just you're getting a ten, you're getting a fifteen. You're paying ten dollars for twenty dollar ride. That's what's happening, which is fantastic for consumers. The same thing with you know, I just wrote about we worked this week and your colleague calls it a PONZI. Yes I did. I wrote a long column about it and included Scott in that. Um, you know, I think it just the economics don't make sense, Like, wait, you're telling me if I get a floor in a building, that floor shouldn't be worth more than the whole building itself. Well, they're trying to pass themselves off as a tech company, and I think that's what offense got nine that. Do you remember Regious thirty years ago reduced plus beer equals multiple. Yeah, it just seems sort of one of them has just gone up again. Redis R I C I or something like that. You've got competitors. They that business that that that I p O perspectives was like one of the analysts called a lesson in obfuscation. I read that. I can't recall the last time in S one maybe it was Facebook, the last time an S one came out and it was so completely and totally line by line taken apart, like we works were. Well, it deserved it. I deserved it that. You know, look, it could be a very it's a really interesting disruptive brand. There's some great ideas there, but not enough for what for billion? There's seven billion, great This all comes back to what you said earlier about way too much capital and silicon value chasing way too few deals. Has that completely skewed valuations, which, by the way, Andreeson says we don't pay attention to valuation. Well that's what he says. Yes, you know, I think it's you know, once again in the public markets. Yes, I think it matters. I think you're right. Who cares the vcs throw you know, I always say there's not enough money to shove, not up for ad holes to shove all the money down. And there's that much money. So yeah, there's that much money. And so you know, you've got SoftBank running around now. And look when Andreason came and everyone's like, what's he doing? Overpaying now? And Reason looks like parsimonious compared to SoftBank. That's a good word. So let me push back again on some of the new tech companies. So there's grub Street, which has been doing some really dishonest things. If we've just wrote about that about about the tipping, not just the tipping, but taking phone numbers for um and registering websites that look like the restaurants. If you think Craigslist hurt media companies. Grub Street is really damaging a lot. Actually, it's a it's a bigger question you're talking there's a bigger question you're talking about, which is the ethics behind some of this stuff. Like it goes to the bigger version of data. How your data is being used, how you're being manipulated online. Now you don't get if your data is being used and they're monetizing it, why don't you get a piece of it? How does that happen that your data which you own is being monetized by someone else, Like that's like you have to think about around face, But where's the benefit? Are they paying you for that? Are they disclosing enough? Are you allowed to opt out? And so those are those bigger questions of how all of us have become like you know, if you remember the soiling greens people like you know, that's data is people, and so the question is what do we do about that? And Congress in general, on the bigger question, has has done no regulation of the Internet ever, unlike Europe, which has been very forward on starting to they're a decade ahead of they are there, indeed, but it's still there. Haven't been really comprehensive regulation of the Internet the way there's comprehensive whether whilst she breaks it, there's comprehensive legislation, whether chemical companies violate things and break the lot. There are laws, whether they're you know, emission standards, which are now the Fifornian the drum mininistrator California looks like it's winning. Um oh god, they're there, Sam. You stop and think about this. The automobile industry has invested so much money in everything from hybrids to electric to Cleanerody's going back, right, It's like, wait, we've wasted billions of dollars if we get to play, not going back. They don't want to go back. I want to go back. And the future is these cars. They they have a marketing and branding issues they want to appeal to. Really, you're on the downside of history here like Stop like clean Cole Clean. So what's what's interesting is that like Tony. So the question is where are we gonna regulate like in California right now, there's a privacy bill coming online that's going to be the de facto for the country. It is, and there's twelve others across the country. So then tech companies are going to be like, which one do we like, They're gonna have to follow all of them. I think everybody like longs for an idea of a privacy bill that has some teeth that protects consumers, even these companies, because it's like they don't. I don't. I think confusion really creates problems in markets, right and therefore there should be a really strong national privacy bill that one would thing, but they can't agree on lunch in Congress right now. You'd imagine there should be something around anti discrimination there. You imagine there should be something around Um, there's all kinds of bills. I wrote about this Internet Bill of Rights that they're thinking about, and there's a ten or twelve things, and it's not one law. It's two dozens of laws around the Internet to regulate. And there's only one law right now, and it benefits innet, which is section thirty, which people are now revisiting. Oh, that was your column revisiting an obscure. It's not viscure. It's a critical bill well, but originally it was not well known publicly, and now it's coming. It's been used by it's as a shield. And so what's interesting I have I have a podcast coming out today. I had three people debate it today because I was like, let's talk about this and educate people about it. But you know, that's that bill is helpful to the internet industry and the digital industry. So the question is you can have that and we could you know, getting rid of it's a huge mistake, but figuring out where the responsibility is uh is important and I think so therefore put stuff around it and have some some Everyone is like regulation is terrible. I'm like, no, regulation is worse in many ways because people don't know the rules of the road. And you know, especially with these new technologies are coming cars, some of the healthcare stuff, the censor stuff, the AI stuff, we need good law to to really protect consumers. And many people think, you know, even just the ability to sue is a good thing. Like you know, there are certain laws in place around pornography and everything else, but there this is an industry that needs to be regulated just the way Wall Street is just the way, and regulated they'll be They'll be overreached. There'll be overreached, no question. But the question is if there's none, maybe we need a little Like so you're implying about the right to sue. You know, every all the boilerplate that you shrink, wrap agreements that you sign, have arbitration agreements. In the musicians decency second to thirty does take care of pretty much. They it's been shipped away around uh, sex trafficking in some other areas, but it's not really been shipped away very much at all. And then there's a question of you know, things like Elizabeth Warren was proposing, which is breaking up some of these companies, And that's Elizabeth Warren following again your partner who's been talking talked about that. So there's breakup, there's fees that there's there's fines, there's all kinds of different ways to figure out how to reign in the Internet industry. And it depends on their violations, it depends on their cooperation. Let's do a quick speed round about some of your favorite people, um and since I mentioned Blade Runner, tell me the first things that enter your minds when I mentioned these people's name. Elon musk Um, visionary, visionary, Um, unusual, the whole crazy Joe Rogan thing was blown a little out of No, he shouldn't have done that. He's a seat you have a public company. A little more circumspect would have been better, uh, Jack Dorsey, Oh, also thoughtful, but opaque and disengaged in a way I find troubling. Disengaged meaning not responsive to the current impact of his work. What he's doing, what what are is doing right now? To the national discourse is damaging and he has to think more. He talks about healthy conversations, and I really wish he would stop talking and do something. Okay, speaking of damaging the national discourse, Mark Zuckerbrook ernest really lovely, as you know, the least arrogant considering who he is, really quite thoughtful, thoughtful person, absolutely incapable of dealing with the task he has ahead of him, incapable that that's pretty pretty impressive. Um, what about to use a lot of help? What about the Google guys disengaged? Really disengaged? Is that a function of the just start not running the company? So who is all right? And and whoever is there? What about the entire split between Google and Alphabet or Google projects. It's still the same kind. It's search and everything else is an adult there jumble of blocks. That's what they've always been like Google years ago. There's a fortune magazine covered chaos at Google. It's the same thing. It's a chaotically organized company, and there's there's a lot of obviously practices. It's a big, giant company, makes a ton of money. It's very successful in the way it does. But so from you know, the DNA of any company is the DNA of its beginnings, and that doesn't change. Chaotic, but that's doesn't it's not a messory bad thing. Even at Microsoft, has that DNA changed. Yes, I have a huge respect for such an Adela amazing. I think he's a thoughtful uh measured you know, not as not as exciting screaming and stuff like that, but just a really he's done a great job in defining talk about defining your products. He knows who he is, he knows what Microsoft is interesting read Hastings. Lovely smart. Oh, I just enjoy talking to him. Really, just a great thinker. He's just we don't always agree on things, but boy, what a what a smart man. I like he pulled himself off the board of Facebook. That was interesting. Oh really, I think it was tired of arguing with him. I'm guessing right, And huh, Benny Off you mentioned Earl hysterical, fun, great guy for a drink. You want to go up for a drink with that guy? Always interesting conversation can be blowhardy, but I like it. I like the whole jam. I like it started act. I like his whole commitment to the city. I think it's genuine. I like he's that he's loud about it. Everyone's like, oh, he's just loud about I'm like, yeah, but he does things like I don't care, let him brag, let him. I like him. He's just a really fascinating character. I really enjoy talking it. I always I never not interested in talking to him. Andrewson painting really, but I'm surprised in a good way, in a bad way to some of his new tweets. He's tweeting some crazy definitely, but he took a long tweet vacation, a couple of whatever. He's like Mark whatever, he's I argue with him a lot, but I enjoy it. I hate don't know. I hope he's not listening. Oh he's listening. Okay, Well, what are the vcs are worth bringing up? John Door, Bill Gurley who John's a very thoughtful person. He's not put a book recently, he's put on a book, we did a podcast. He's always been I think, Um, he's John. You know, he's a seems ethical. What what other VCS did I not get to that? That tramp? Do not know him. He's great, He's just a character and sok on Valley. Um, you know, I think you know, there's lots of VCS you don't know about, like my Michael Deering. There's all sorts of interesting Aileene Mary Meeker, there's all sorts of really well you all know who Mary Meeker. Yeah, she's great, she's great. I met her when she was an analyst at Morgan Stan. I used to stay up nights talking about the Internet with her in like the nineties, early nine She got it. She got it in fact too enthusiastic, but she was right directionally she was correct. I've argued that the difference between her and people got into trouble. Like Henry Blodge is she was a true believer who and being wrong is not prosecutable. She was early, She was early, but she was right. She was right in the long term. She was probably wrong several times. The term evaluation his reel cynical. I like Henry, I think he got a He's also a beautiful writer. Um, Who have I missed Steve Jobs? Oh fascinating. I really enjoyed interviewing him. What an interesting and complex person, Um, I always say. And I've gotten to his wife quite a bit. His widow, Lauren Lorraine, who's really really interesting to talk to. She's very active in philanthropy, not just philanthropy, all kinds of all kinds of interesting and I find her to be very interesting in her investment stuff. She's very thoughtful. Another very thoughtful person. Um has a lot of points of view which I like. I like one of the point of you assume Job was you know he was just it would have complicated and interesting person. I know everyone sort of like tried to cartoonize people. He was mean to people. I'm like, yeah, but lots of people are me. No, No, I don't think he was. You know, I have his ratio of productivity was so high, and you know, all those speeches around death were so what an interesting person who challenged himself from a philosophical point of view, I don't think he had a lot of people always say he was heartless. This is what I say all the time. He had too much heart he had too much heart. It was too there were so many things going on with him. I always we did eight Walt and I did eight eight interviews or more with him. Very nobody had the body of interviews that we did with him, and that was every single one of them were fascinating conversations, and of course he's going to be seen as one of the most important. And we did one with Gates and Jobs together. I recall that that was really very interesting. That's going to go down in history that you know, I'll be forgotten, But not that interview. Larry Ellison hysterical, hysterical, really just I just loved talking to him. I mean, you know, he's you know, you know, and he's sort of the old days of like vaguely sexist, sometimes very sexists all Coon Valley, like the old like sells Off where everybody like that kind of stuff. I gotta tell you, he's a really you know, he's raised two really interesting children too, Like what are the kids doing? The kids are moviemakers. They make Star Trek and his daughter makes some amazing movies. Is like a really interesting filmmaker. And his son makes more like Terminator and and Star Trek. The recent Star Treks, which are very good movies that star trek Ones particularly, And so I don't know. I just he's a he just he's one of the few titans left kind of thing. Uh. Scott McNeely was someone I haven't heard from. I just did a podcast with him. Not a podcast, I did a column in York Times went around privacy, privacy, get used to it, that kind of thing. Um, he's which is the inverse of what people used to say. No, he was the first one to really identity that you have no privacy, get used to it. Um. That was a really prescient thing he said. I'm not sure I agree with him on a lot of political stuff. He's quite he has a he has a problem with Hillary Clinton, is he needs to let go of still even to this day he's talking to him. I'm like, you know, she's a private citizen, is never going to be president. You really can move along, Like I feel like you've handled Hillary Clinton, so like, let's some people who don't like or really can whatever. It's just funny. I was sort of like, can we stop talking about Hillary Clinton and start discussing the current state of affairs? What? What about CEOs? I haven't mentioned what company interesting ones like Brian Chowsky from Airbnb. I think he's very thoughtful and interesting. I'll be in such an interesting company when that goes public. I think he thinks very carefully about stuff, and he understands what I like about him as he understands the impact. He may not always do the right thing, and they've had a lot of mess ups and everything else. They had some early mess ups that I think taught them a lot. But I think he's extraordinarily thoughtful about his impact and you very and I don't think it's just yammering. I think he actually knows that his company has negative and positive impacts. So he's able to discuss the negative impacts without being defensive. And it's a pleasure to talk to him. Tim Cook, I love the talk. I didn't get to think Tim Cooks are really he's an adult. I've done some very good interviews with him. People assumed that when Jobs left that would be it for Apple, But here we are, what is it six years later? You know they've still got the issue. If they've got to have what's the next hit? They're like the Rolling Stones, like when's your next hit? Like there at some point they can't keep making Like it's just like they have such a record, you're almost like a good job, you know. I feel like that I'm kind of old, but I'm keep making hits, so and so they can keep making it. It's a really they've done so much amazing stuff that this year there's a lot of Yeah, there's stuff around that show looks pretty good. Um, we'll see the problem with that show. And you brought this up with competing with content between Netflix and Amazon and Hulu and everybody else. It's really hard to lu I thought they should have brought Netflix five years ago when I wrote that, and people gave me grief about it. I think it was fifty billion dollars and people give me grief. It was like two that was a missed opportunity. They could still do it so much. Well, it's a rounding era to them. But you know there, I liked him cook, I really enjoy I think he's been one of the adults in the room and has been very toughful. A lot of people think he's taking advantage of, like sort of being a school marm, but I don't care. I like it versus Facebook to some degree. You mean in terms of hey to say, you know, I asked him. I didn't think he was going to answer, but he did. I asked him in this interview I did in Chicago last year. Um it was a live interview to school, and I said, what would you do if you were Mark Zuckerberg? And he said, I wouldn't be in the situation. In the first I was like, that's a genus answer, right, that's he's not like, that's like he never does that. They have a bone to pick with Facebook, Well, yeah, they it's also calculated bone because their business is not is not advertising. It's an excellent business opportunity to smack them and and I think and they believe it. And by the way, Steve Jobs was talking about this with us ten years years about Facebook, about privacy about very strangely, and you can talk about that when it's not your business, right, So I guess you could go on about how porn talks like and it's it's insulting to women and that because it's not my business. So you know, it's it's actually good for me if they're competing with me. So I think a lot of people feel like Facebook and he's taking advantage of the situation. But I'm okay, So what meanwhile, did you happen to catch the sixty minutes about that Israeli company that basically has licensed the technology. I think it's called Pegasus that hack can hack any phone anywhere in the world. I assume that's happening already. But I mean there is literally an Israeli company who was given grief because they licensed it to Saudi Saudi Arabia and fearically they use this technology now. But that's going to catch up that this It's going to be a constant arms race for all this stuff. There's gonna be like, look, I assume everything is hacked. That's just not the study. And so so LA is right. There is no privacy. There is no there hasn't. But you can't control your privacy. That's different. You don't own you know it's out there, but you can there's ways to control. And they haven't done any job whatsoever and helping you do. So one thing you even talked about is Trump and is tweeting. All the tweeting like that's just such an important thing. It's governing by Twitter. So it's funny because every time a conversation comes up about g the president and and this is just the most recent one. The President is haranguing the Federal Reserve chair. Uh, that's never happened before. And what the answer to these tend to be is, well, it has happened before, just it's always been private. And to do it publicly, to do a vocation and weaponization that it is provided by these tools, these online tools, is really unprecedented. Everyone's like people have done from like no, not like this, and and you know, just the two examples. I wrote a calm about this the when they when they the census thing was happening, right, which we'vegotten about. Remember that, Well, it's the the outrages come so fast and furious, you can't keep up. So he by design they had made a decision to back away from adding that question, and suddenly he tweets that, oh yeah, we're putting an end. And then the lawyer for the Justice Department is like, I don't know what he meant in the tweet. We need to call him, like what like governing by tweet? And then he did it this week with Greenland. Well, wait before we go to Greenland, stay with the census question. Governing by twitter. Here's the fascinating thing. The last landed gentry in the United States are federal judges. What they say goes in their court, and you can be in jail as a lawyer who's been who's been fined for um, disrespecting the court, and eventually the appeal will go your way, and after six months of jail you come out. That judge said to that lawyer, your answer is this honest and if you don't get me the answer I want, there's going to be hell to pay. I think he threatened them with contempt of court and sending them to jail until it's resolved, and he held them accountable. It was fascinating. He's like, you're responsible for this, it's your client to the lawyers because literally they're saying there like it's Twitter. What But literally he's governing by Twitter, Like what do you do? Like I can see the person is sitting there, like what do we do? Now? Who do we call? He just tweeted it, like what does that mean that the interpreting it. You're an officer of the court and you have an obligation. But I'm talking about on a personal level. I mean, like just like Maddest when he was tweeting about that transgender So he just ignored him right and pulled someone into the office said no, not doing But by the way, he twitter resident and you're ignoring the residence of the whole thing is saying yes, but it's also in you can't do that like that. That's called we have a system. So it's really fascinating, Well, we have a system, and if you want me to do something, give me an official executive order, not a tweet. We don't want people anticipating with the president. Nobody's anticipated that you could do that, because he did it again with Greenland. I'm not going to Greenland. The ambassador to Greenland was like, welcome, Mr President, and then he tweets that like just at the same time, and then they're like they're all scrambling, like somebody had an interesting theory that pre scheduled at the end of the month. Is Obama going to Greenlands? And he didn't want to be compared with the adoring think you know, I think. But it's really interesting because it's a perfect medium for this guy. He's like the troll in chief. He's twitchy, he's raging, he's it's everything about the way Twitter is designed, and the way they've architect it is perfect for Donald Trump, and he's that's why he's so good on it. Now, then you see someone like AOC who's also good on it, but he's good in a different way. Future president, he's exactly he broadcast or possibly he broadcasts, and she speaks the language. So I find her fascinating in that way. And I don't know. I think Nancy Policy is right, you just gotta get the votes. I think she's got to. She's a natural. She's of that general minds. If she combines the ability to communicate beautifully on social media with an ability to get votes and really actually do the mechanations of democracy which you need the votes, like that's really it, that will be very powerful. I think Trump just he just creates havoc, and that's that's also a talent to create havoc. He uses, but it's he has unique. Just the way John F. Kennedy used the television, He's using Twitter and social media, no doubt about it. We have been speaking with Kara Swisher. She is the co founder of Recode and the author of numerous books on technology. If you enjoy this conversation, be sure and check out our podcast extras, where we keep the tape rolling and continue discussing all things tech related. You can find that at iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcast, Overcast, Stitcher, wherever your find our podcasts are sold. We love your comments, feedback and suggestions right to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. Check out my weekly column at Bloomberg dot com. Follow me on Twitter at rid Holts. Sign up from my daily reads at rid Halts dot com. I'm Barry rid Halts. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to the podcast. By the way, Kara, thank you so much for doing this. You were tough to track down. I had to pull in some favors. Galloway who um has been on my podcast. I've done to fifty something now, more than any five years two really and that doesn't count Pivot. That's a lot, but minor roll three four hours, so it's a little so. By the way, just so you know, I've been a listener to Pivot from the beginning. When I'm I'm up early early East Coast time working on my my various and sundry things, my my frippery, UM and I like to have something playing in the background and you guys, you guys are well. We really didn't get into the podcast much, but I love the combination of you as who you are and Scott as an alpha male East Coast weirdest chemistry people. It's it's fantastic anywhere I go there, Like where Scott, I'm like, no, no, we're not married, Mary, we don't hang out, but we sound like a married couple. It's sort of like I was trying to think of, like is it Kathie Lee and Regis is remember moonlighting? You know what I mean. It's that kind of thing that's going on there. It's a really interesting, um it's a really interesting chemistry we have. And I think it's because I'm like, like, he's being alpha male on purpose, right, he's allowing the testosterone poison, but he's also like sort of sort of like he's a woke alpha yeah exactly, kind of like, oh God, I said something stupid and I'm like, you're an idiot. Like he says stuff to you that I just like, crack up, and he's trying to provoke you. I was like, your one statement away from the end of your career. All the time, like I'm trying to protect and you can see me trying to protect. It's a really good it's a really interesting thing, and we're going to try to do more of them. And it's just you can't. You cannot capture that with just about anything. I had that report with Walt in a different way too, So it's really hard to do that. And I was I'm thrilled. I enjoy doing it, which I can tell you know it comes across he enjoyed. We enjoy it like it's fun. And I think that's what's most important, is to you know, love the life you live right kind of thing like we love it, And that's that's how you make great things, if you really enjoy yourself once an episode, I here hold me, Kara. You know it, you know it's coming. He has all kinds. I'm a gangster. Hestake me a texting. Barry's a gangster. I'm like, oh Jesus, can I tell you? Can I tell you the gangster? Can I tell you? The funniest thing he's ever said I ever heard him say so. He knows I'm a car guy. We were talking about cars and I misheard him. I thought he said g wagon. I didn't realize he had a g L wagon. That you wagon is I don't even know what you're talking, all right, So Mercedes start bring up football. I'm going to Mersey's makes this military vehicle that looks like a giant jeep on steroids. It's like a hundred and fifty thou dollars. Why do you need this? Nobody needs it. It's the worst dumbest thing in the world. And when I heard him say g wagon g L, I thought he said g wagon, what would that be? So g L is like a normal STV g L wagon is this? Well, like that's what I thought. I go, I go, Scott, I don't know about you and this g wagon And his answer was no, no, g L, not g wagon. He goes, I'm insecure, not pathetic. I still get emails from people about that. Silly. It's funny he goes, and when he when we go places. And what's really striking about that podcast is I am stopped so much on the street, like tell Scott to screw it, like and really, yeah, I feel like we don't have a TV show because it's really funny. People like he was walking on the tarm and of course he's going to the Hampton's and a helicopter. I'm not doing that. I'm like, I'm in a car with my kids. And really he was shoppering and I'm literally driving a car card to Province down with my pregnant girl, right and my two teenage sons. And it's like and he and the guy who does the waves the helicopter down with the two batons. He has the earphones on and he sees Scott and he goes, where's Gara? Which was really funny. Kara is driving like a car up to the cape, is what Kara is doing? Anyway. That's that's very He's in Nantucket, of course, because he's the elite. Is Nantucket considered the Oh my god, been there? That I'm not. I'm in the top ten percent. I'm not in the top. One color in your house is everything has to look the same, the wooden shingles, and you need to not go to Nantucket in a province town, you gotta pick. I'm a Fire Island guy. I'm very Fire Island faddle classic out there exactly all right, So I have to let you go eventually. So let me jump to my favorite questions that I asked all of my guests. I know you don't own a car now, but what was the first car you ever owned? Hot a Civic, good, good, reliable car. Shift. I have a ship. I always have shift car, me too, cars, my jeep. Everything is a stick shift. And my wife is now a better driver with a stick than I am. It's really uh swagon for years, which one bug or something? Later and then I had a rabbit. When it was a rabbit, it's called something, it's called and then and then I had a minivan. I had a hont Of minivan when I but not before I had kids. I had a Honey Minivan. Then I had a less Bru of course a super You saw there was a big article not too long ago about how Subru became the car of choice of lesbians, and I think it was vany fair. It's a very interesting less Brue. I had a less Brut and then I never heard of call. I had a jeep for New York Manager. They're the worst, terrible, although to be fair, they're unstoppable in the snow. I had I had one with the with the with the like a real jeep. And I had one that was had a hard top, and I hated both of them, and then I had an Then I started getting into masses. I love masses and I love the Mazda. I wanted a Masta too, but mosta three, and the three is a happy car. It's a good car. It's had a great happy fix. That was a great car. And then I just recently had a Ford Fiesta Turbo. That's why I'm so sorry there was no I'm telling you that's a great years ago. I hated, no the Turbo. It really is a good car. Don't insult the Ford Fiesta. I will tell you. I rented a Ford Edge the other day and I was surprised at how good car. Herbo was a different car. Everyone made fun of me, and then they got in it with its stick shift and we're like, oh, I see, Oh, this is wonderful little car. It was a great little car. But I do not have any cars. I had a Vespa for many years, but I never wrote it. I had what do you mean you never drove it? I just in Sanrancis was too cold. I had it in San Francisco. My my ex gave it to me as a Valentine's present. But I love scooters. I write scooters all the time, and I love I love scooters. What's the most important thing people don't know about? Kara Swish and I love scooters. No, people know that, No, that I love. I love action films with really bad action films like I just I just love those I love. I go to all of them and I go by myself. I don't want to like, how are you with people about how they are? Really? I just go I love them, I love them, I love them, I love I love Mission Possible. I love Bond. I'm so excited the new Bond film is coming out and Drew Elba going to be No, no no, it's gonna be Daniel Craig again. Well that's this one. I've seen every Bond movie ten times, even the bad ones, and uh, I love all those movies. I like. I'm excited for Kristen Stewart and Underwater. I like anything action and I also love Fast and Furious franchise. I love and I love the rock Jack Reacher. Have you seen the joke? Yes, so I'm not going to name something. How about Night and Day? Yes, of course, with me without me, I love it. Let's talk about mentors. Tell us about your mentor that's it. One name. Bang. He recruited you to the journal. How did he affect how you developed as a journalist. He was so generous with his power. He had so much power and was so generous and and and really it's such a good mentor to women in the in the way never air to mentor a woman, never early he has. There's a group of women he's mentored in a way that has been and specifically made sure he did that because he understood they were they there were there were issues. Always had my back. Um just and I can I can be uh difficult, not difficult? No, no no difficult. That's what Scott told me. He said, you were difficult. No, I'm not difficult. I'm not difficult. I think. I know what I want and I can say it very loudly and I don't you know, I think and I do it around powerful people like Rupert. Mark said time to me, I was like no, and everyone was like WHOA, what do you do? At one point it was let me tell you this very very so we would meet with him. Mark loved Walt Moss Burt love, He loved reading him. He was thrilled when he bought the journal. Always had Walt to lunch and everything, and I was always with him, right like I was there. I'm certain Rupermar didn't know my name. He thought you were hit Walt's assistant. He knew, he was aware that I was his partner, you know what I mean, But he didn't know. I was like he didn't and so he never he'd be like wall, Wall, Wall, how are you? How are you're doing? You know? Mumbles? And I was always with him, and so he later knows who I am. And he used to call me a lot during the Internet thing like what do you think of this company? What do you think that? Which was interesting. I'd get a call like four in the morning for moving Rupert's call on the phone and I'm like, all right, sure or whatever. But um, but he we were in the office one day and he's like wha and he goes, well hello, and I go listen. I don't think you know my name, but it's Kara Swisher. Next time I come, I'd like you to say hi, Kara, because I want you to remember my name if you don't mind. But I don't think you know my name right now. And I'm sorry to be rude, but I'm just wanting like why pretend? What was the reaction He's like, I know your name. I'm like, well, I said, all right, if you know what you do, but I don't think you do. I know it, and I go, all right, I don't think you do. And I was like, what was like? Stop at Carol and the next time you showed up, he said, you always knew my name after That's very, very funny. Let's talk about books. We've touched on a few books and will include your books. What are some of your favorite books, tech non tech? What do you like? I'm reading I've been reading ron Cherno Hamilton's book for six years now, can't finish. He ends badly, um no no, and I'm gonna play on Broadway. It worked out well so early. But I think the book is great, and I'm really I love historical books. I'm right now reading um List. I just finished I'll Be Gone in the Dark. Michelle McNamara's book about the Golden State Killer. Just a really interest. I love dogged people, and she was how that eventually got solved. But yeah, well DNA That's why I was interested. And I'm sort of super interested in DNA right now. So I just read that book, but it turned out to be a fascinating book. Um. I am reading uh, Taffy Acnear's Fleishman's in Trouble. I had her on the podcast and I didn't fan me great novel. She's a great feature writer and she's trying her hand at novels. Um. I read a lot of the books I have to do podcasts on. I'm reading Andrew Marin's's book about Disinformation because he's going to be on the podcast my Isaac's book. I'm giving him his book party for the Uber book. Although I don't want to know more about Uber, I know a lot about it. You know how that ends. But it's a good book. It's a good book. Um. Yeah, and so that's interesting. I read a lot of nonfiction more than fiction I wish I read. I'm reading this book that's amazing and I'm going to blank on her name. Julia, Julia Gabby Rivera's new book. It's I can't remember the name of it anyway, you hear, very new book and it's amazing. It's really wonderful. Juliana takes on something or that she's she's really great. She's a beautiful writer. And I'm trying to read more fiction because I think everybody wants to read more fiction. It's very stupid fiction. I just really, you know, really, I like fiction. I mean for work, don't you have to do a ton? I do a ton of reading. I read the Internet all day long, and I read a lot of stories. Um, but I tend to I like I like feature writers. Some of my favorite feature writers Jessica Pressler, Olivia Nuzzy. They're all women. It's interesting, Taffy Acner, Um. I like them all. I find them really wonderful. I love their writing. I think they're great. Tell Us about a time you've failed and what you learned from the experience failed nobody bats at thousand. I don't look at it as failure. I hate to sound like a Silicon Valley person, but it sound like Ray Dally keep going. I don't look at them as failures. I don't think I'm trying to, well, what did you learn from the experience of something that we can just do something else. I have a very good ability just to like okay, next, next, like thank you next, um uh, it's it's I just don't think of it that way. I don't think. I don't think I The only failures I can think of is with my children, like I should have given also right, I should have done more of this sometimes like I should have made decisions faster. It's all related to my children. Um. And even then, I think I'm a very good parent. I think I'm a really good parent. So no failures ever, I know that's not but I don't like, Well, my dad died when I was five. That's not a failure, but it's certainly it for me. And I think I'm very resilient because of it, even though I would rather be less resilient in him alive. So you know, sometimes I lose my temper with my mom and I wish I had and it's a lot of that kind of stuff. Um. But big career failer is, you know, I think I'm really good at career. I'd have to say I've timed it well. I think I think I've done a good job on my career for sure. And that's in a very And also, you know, when I had a stroke, I thought, wait, what I had a stroke with five six years ago? Hold on a sex. So the answer to the question, what's the most important thing we don't know about you? Oh, the stroke. People do know about it. I don't know, but I didn't listen. I do a ton of research into every guest. I didn'tng on my way to do a make money for Rupert Murdoch. I did an All Things Digital D China and Asia D so from the flight on the flight. Yeah, and it turned out I had a hole in my heart, which many people have dated me have said, no, I'm kidding, I'm pretty good. That is a mark. Yeah, yeah, I to hold my heart. It's called the PFO. And I had sticky blood, as I found out through twenty three and me and I was Mediterranean, but it's a kind of it's a condition for the But so, so, what were the what was the impact of the stroke? It reinforced my feeling that life is short and you better get going. True, But what was the biological What were the medical sets? I like the philosophical Yeah, I mean, I'm with Steve jobs on that I had a hole in my heart and there's nothing I can do about it's much So wait, your stroke was cerebral stroke or cardiac cardiac I probably be dead. So so you have a stroke with no limitations and no, it just was amazing no cognitive function, physical very short amount of time that day, and then it was done. I was like talking like this, and was the hole in your heart discovered post stroke investigation. So you got a little lucky with a minor stroke that discovered this leakage in one of your valves or what was it was? It's a hole in your heart's got a PFO. And when you're born, there's a flap where the emotic fluid goes back and forth and supposed to close, it closes up. It flaps over and then seals. And people doesn't seal. Human doesn't leak. It just is there, just a lap. It's flaps and doesn't on a clock got through. If there's no clock getting through, it doesn't matter. So I'm not a doctor, but I wrote a big column on that actually in the Times Perry died. Oh yes, I wrote saying I had a stroke and my brothers saved my life. My brother is a doctor. And when I was in Hong Kong and I was well, I was, I was there and I suddenly couldn't talk. I had a dysphasia. And I was like and I was in a hotel room and I was like, well, I can't call anybody. And I felt, okay, a little headache, could you. I had a little bit of tingle in my hand, but yeah, I was writing a story about Yahoo, and I was like, you know these idiots that, yeah, who once again are screwing up or something, And it was my finger tingled. I tried to eat something. It fell out of my mouth and then I was like wow. And I was like, huh. And I thought I had a migraine side migraines for years, which is a sign of a stroke among women. Realized that not everybody was migraines gets a stroke, but it's one of the signals. And and I've been traveling and I thought a lot and I was like, oh, I just I'm just so tired, that's what it is. And so I wrote my brother. I texted him and it was a different time, and I think it was in the middle the night in San Francisco and he's an anesthesiologist and he said, um, like my father was an anesthesiologist, and he he texted me. I went up to breakfast and by the time I got to breakfast, you know, I'd woken up at four in the morning, Hong Kong time, and then I went up or whatever, and then went up to breakfast. By the time it was gone, it was sort of talking like this, like I had like teeth surgery and I and I got up to the thing and and my brother called. He says, get yourself to a hospital right now. You're having a stroke. And I said, are you crazy, Like you're such a bad doctor, how ridiculous that I'm you know, whatever, years old. I was not old. And so I think my late parties and or maybe fifty in and it was for late parties. And so he said, you were having a stroke. Get get to a hospital now now. And I was like okay, And so I did, and he was right, and I was having a stroke. And it wasn't a minor stroke. It was a stroke. And so you know all strokes, I mean there's things and t M I whatever they're called, um and uh. And they medicated me immediately and I didn't have any repercussions. He flew to Hong Kong immediately. But he saved my life. He did. That's amazing, you know. Now he's never let me live it in to day. I don't that's the trade off for saving your life. I'm gonna hold this over you for a great doctor. Um, tell us what you do for fun? Oh, I don't have fun? What's that? No? I I have a lot of friends. I have a ton of friends. Um. I love spending time with my kids. My kids are amazing. My two sons are astonishing. And I'm about to have a baby with my girlfriend who is having a little girl. Uh. So I was family. I spent a lot of time with family. I think that's fun for me doing family stuff. Um. I don't have a lot of weird hobbies. I used to roller blade. I don't do that anymore. Um. You know I did sell cycle that I'm not gonna do. I'm gonna try it something else. You're out pound coast of it. I was gonna say, Peloton is really the best need my thousands of dollars. It's it's not a little money. It's not like I get a one Starbucks a week gets a lot of money their thirty dollars session. I don't have to give them the money, you know whatever. People can make their own decisions. I don't care. I don't have to. But they can also leave me the hell on if I want to do something else. So um, so I know it's virtue signing. I don't care. I don't want to spend the money there. I hate the phrase virtue signaling. Christ really I can add hominum attack. It's not about the argument who I am. And people have pushed back about that, and you go back to the person who created the phrase and he describes it as a personal attack against people whose ideas when I just I just want to do it, like leave me, but you know, mind your own business and I won't be money who I spend my money, my money. I work. I work so hard and I could okay, no, I mean or people who are politically I just want to spend the money. When I spend my most things you can't figure ever, And then they're like, well this is this and like you can't figure everything, but that's a clear one. That's a clear one, Like I get that has signaled. You know, if I eat like a Hersheibar this money, I can't figure all that, of course, but in this case, this guy made a prominent gesture, and I'm going to make a prominent gesture back. So that's you know, and that's why there's no lot of logic to it's care Swisher logic. And by the way, carrocial logic applies to cars. Can I tell you there is logic to it when someone is going to be a very visible patron of someone whose beliefs not just disagree with yours, but are actively oppressing your UM identification care. I just don't like it. I don't like I don't want to give money. That's all. That's it's It's not even that complicated. By the way, I feel terrible for mentally well, and it's Soul Cycle. I'd love to have on the podcast to talk about it. I think, I think the people of Soul Cycle, I'm so sorry that they have to go through this. But you know what, I'll spinning out to a separate entity. I was like, I want to call the rain Jobs and say, Lorraine, who does love Soul Cycle? But then you're behavi ares. I can do something about it, you know, but then you reward. You're going to reward for fun. I hang out with friends. That's it. UM tell us what you're most optimistic and pessimistic about your chosen field of technology and journalism. I am optimistic because there's so much exciting stuff going on and so much innovation happening in journalism. And I think that even though people sort of declared the end, when people were declaring the end of the world and stuff, I remember Barry deal or saying, you know, it's just it's never that, it's never. You can't whine and give up on things like it's been a losing bed for five yeah, you know. And journalists tend to like not check like sometimes, like I was talking to someone, They're like, Oh, this is what's happening, and this is what's happening. I'm like, did you check if this is what's happening? Because you're just making that up. And so I think you have to really feel, you know, anyone who has children has to believe in the future, anyone, you know. And I have a lot of children, so I believe in the future. I don't want to have children if I didn't. So what are you pessimistic about? Um? The autocracy? On one hand, I feel like autocrats always end up dead in the dantage drainage ditch. I studied the Holocaust quite heavily and propaganda and stuff in the Haga, so it can get really bad. And when's the point where it stays bad and it hasn't so far in our history. There's always someone who looks at Joe slamcars dand says, have you no shame? And it ends like it doesn't end totally, but it stops. The fever stops. You have someone at the Salem which right, the Salem witch trials, they were terrible. They ended the You know that I was around when I was a formative years, AIDS was terrible. During the Reagan administration. The stuff the Reagan administration was doing was appalling. James Watt said trees caused cancer. What everybody's seeing trees caused pollution? Remember him carbon die right? Whatever? James Watt where. I'm sure he's not living anymore, but he It was just there's there's there's always these people that are retrogade, and I use I'll end on this one of my favorite. Um, I see the thing. You know what I do for fun? I go to the theater. I love I'm seeing Mulan Roustena and stuff like that. Have I gotta say, have you seen to Of course I did. I've seen every one of them. Talk about powerful. I love theater. Make It's transformative for me as a person. I've always since I was a kid. My mom brought us. It's a real gift. My mom gave us to love of theater. And so I was Angels in America is one of my favorite ones, and I've seen it at least a dozen times. Tony Kushner's two parts and the end of the play, Um, it's a wonderful play. It's such a beautifully written play in such a time. It's harder than this time to remember for it. But it was terrible during the AIDS. Christ is terrible, terrible, terrible people dying, these wonderful people dying like way before their time. And um, and the last line of the of the thing, they're standing at the fountain in Central Park, the Bethesda Fountain, and uh, she said, he's the line he gives is the world always spins forward, and this is our time. We will not be silent anymore. And I remember being a gay person then just coming out, and you people don't remember when it was hard to be gay, and it still is in many parts of the world, but it's easy. I have kids better in the United States, so it's like you can't believe it, you can't believe it. And so I remember that really impacting me. The world always spins forward. And that's why I thinking everyone's like Trump's gonna reverything. I'm like, is he he can't, Well, he'll do damage for four years and hopefully then he can't, and like, and we'll fix it. We can fix it and we can pick it up. And I think that's where I get up. The same thing with journalism, the same thing with anything, is that people they always end up. These people that want to push us back to old times, which brings people down. There are people that stand up and say enough is enough, no more. When is that going to happen? It will all right. I hope you're right. Last two questions and a millennial or college grad comes to you and says, I'm interested in the career in journalism. What sort of advice would you give us? Start writing? Just start looking around and start writing, start reporting, Start writing. So much amazing journalist is being done right now and again because these times are harder, same thing happened during the last time we had something like this. So just get out your pen, whatever, whatever, get out whatever you can and start telling stories. And I think telling stories is the greatest talent that humans have, is to tell stories. Quite interesting. And our final questions, what do you questions, Barry, I come prepared. What what do you know about the world anymore special about That's true. That's a fair po serial killer, right, you know, that's what I used to do before with this. My son's name is Louie. There's nobody named old Jewish Louis. Yeah, well, okay, there you go. So you named your kid after Louis's name, that is a digression. I did not. His name is Lewis. I did not name it after one of my favorite seafood places is Louise in Port Washington. I grew up in um Oh, so I'm in Locust Valley and I went to Portlage. Oh. Portlage is literally vilege thirty seconds from my I live in and can I tell you when whenever people visit me, they're like, I didn't know Long Island was like this. I'm like, well, you made a you made a left and you went to Connecticut. This is this is the US. So my sister's kids want to say that I don't know. You grew up in very interesting. What was I saying? Our final question, what do you know about the world of technology today that you wish you knew. However, many years, thirty years ago, when you first started, I know about it today. I wish I knew. Gosh, I forget more about technology than most people know. So um in an hour. Mm hmmm, I don't. I think I didn't quite on the damage. I think I wish I had understood the damage earlier so I could start writing about it and stopping it. Privacy, social networks, damage, all of it, the idea that these the impact on humanity, and how you know. I studied propaganda at Georgetown. That was my area of expertise in the Foreign service schools the US. As a propaganda I should have understood having studied the Nazis, and especially the Nazis, how they used propaganda to um to to to in the roll up to killing so many people. The way they used it, it was not a one day thing. You can't just sloater millions. You gotta prep you gotta prep it, and you gotta get the population. Comparing it to the Holocaust, but there's damage being done that is very It's a similar thing is how we make people the other and I think the internet, and I think the Internet is very effective at thought. It is and I thought it was gonna be Star Trek. I thought it was gonna be We're all gonna have communicators and love each other, and we're all going to be on a ship. But it's both. You have the good and the bad. That that's right. So the question is are you a Star Trek person or a Star Wars person? Star Wars it's very dark. It's dark, and Star Trek is very hopeful. I was a Star Trek person far far too long. That's very interesting, fascinating stuff. Thank you so much with your time. We have been speaking with Kara Swisher. She is the founder of Recode. I mentioned you want a Lobe award right, and she writes a weekly opinion column now for the New York Times. If you enjoy this conversation, well look up an Inch, Down an Inch on all of our previous two and fifty plus conversations and I'm sure you'll find something that you'll enjoy. Uh. We love your comments, feedback and suggestions right to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net, Go to Apple iTunes and give us a lovely review. Be sure to check out my weekly column. You could see that at Bloomberg dot com. I would be remiss if I did not thank the crack staff that helps us put together the easiest podcast to record UH in podcast Land. Charlie Volmer is my audio engineer this week. Attica val Bron is our project manager. Michael Boyle is my producer. Michael bat Nick is my head of research. I'm Barry Retults. You've been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio