Dude, do you know how Amazon runs their company?

Dude, do you know how Amazon runs their company?

No? Okay, So here's how they run their meetings. Okay, but this is part of it. There's a book. Did I tell you about this book? I think I told you about this book, Working Backwards. So this book is called Working Backwards. And this guy that was the chief of staff for Jeff Bezos for two years. Imagine that you're just following Jeff Basos, shadowing him everywhere.

No? Okay, So here's how they run their meetings. Okay, but this is part of it. There's a book. Did I tell you about this book? I think I told you about this book, Working Backwards. So this book is called Working Backwards. And this guy that was the chief of staff for Jeff Bezos for two years. Imagine that you're just following Jeff Basos, shadowing him everywhere.

That's one guy that wrote the book. The other guy that wrote the book he worked at Amazon for fifteen years and he helped start Amazon Prime. I think he started. He helped with the launch of Kindle, all these things right, like a lot the media division for Amazon as they're trying to get out a book. So he was there for fifteen years. And there are a couple of things. First, let's talk about the meetings, because you brought up the meetings. The first thing is they for the longest time, everyone was doing powerpoints, right, and then at a certain point they're just like, dude, like, no more powerpoints because powerpoints are easier for you, the creator, but it's harder for the audience to understand, right. So they mandated this thing where you have to write narratives and memos, where like if you came up with an idea, Neil, you'd have to write out like, hey, this is what I'm thinking right now, this is what it's going to look like, here's the resources required here, and then faq like, this is how much is it going to cost? Here, here's how much we might get from it. And so it forces clear thinking because the problem as a company gets bigger is everyone has an idea, right, well, I have this idea, I have this, but this this stops the laziness. It's like, oh, you have an idea, You're going to write a narrative, okay. And some of these narratives will take like a week two weeks to write because they're like seven six seven pages or so, and it's it's they're really refined.

That's one guy that wrote the book. The other guy that wrote the book he worked at Amazon for fifteen years and he helped start Amazon Prime. I think he started. He helped with the launch of Kindle, all these things right, like a lot the media division for Amazon as they're trying to get out a book. So he was there for fifteen years. And there are a couple of things. First, let's talk about the meetings, because you brought up the meetings. The first thing is they for the longest time, everyone was doing powerpoints, right, and then at a certain point they're just like, dude, like, no more powerpoints because powerpoints are easier for you, the creator, but it's harder for the audience to understand, right. So they mandated this thing where you have to write narratives and memos, where like if you came up with an idea, Neil, you'd have to write out like, hey, this is what I'm thinking right now, this is what it's going to look like, here's the resources required here, and then faq like, this is how much is it going to cost? Here, here's how much we might get from it. And so it forces clear thinking because the problem as a company gets bigger is everyone has an idea, right, well, I have this idea, I have this, but this this stops the laziness. It's like, oh, you have an idea, You're going to write a narrative, okay. And some of these narratives will take like a week two weeks to write because they're like seven six seven pages or so, and it's it's they're really refined.

Right.

Right.

If they're not refined, that people just leave the meeting. And so that's a good place. That's a good starting point because we started doing that at our company and it's so much easier now. I'm just like, oh, okay, you really like do a memo, right, And then I'm leading my example, I'm writing memos all the time. Is it a pain in the ass yes, But at the same time, it's really it feels a lot clearer in terms of where we're going. So, what's an example of a memo that you wrote recently? So there's a concept. So you know, I went to a retreat recently, right, Yeah, and one of the key takeaways was like the entire group was like, dude, you guys are so good at top of the funnel market. You guys are order takers, but you don't fulfill them middle sixty percent. And then our mutual friend and even oh shit, yeah that's true. Right, you're talking about for sales specifically. Yeah, So, like you just moving back up a second. Let's the reason I called the mixing missing sixty percent is let's say one hundred people come into my funnel. Twenty people will never buy, twenty people are hand raisers, they're ready to buy, and then sixty percent that the middle sixty percent are they need to be nurtured. Right, And so I wrote an entire memo. It probably took me about two hours or so, and it ended up being like six seven pages. But through that that sparked a lot of side conversations and ideas, and now we have a list of things and we're just tackling those things now. So but there's no like, there's a lot less questions and confusion and you're actually seeing people take action in terms. Yeah, yeah, people are like and then I'll have I'll like have people talk talk about like, hey, how helpful has it been? It's like, dude, it's like amazingly helpful because now it's we're not just throwing ideas all over the place. We're like forcing clear thinking.

If they're not refined, that people just leave the meeting. And so that's a good place. That's a good starting point because we started doing that at our company and it's so much easier now. I'm just like, oh, okay, you really like do a memo, right, And then I'm leading my example, I'm writing memos all the time. Is it a pain in the ass yes, But at the same time, it's really it feels a lot clearer in terms of where we're going. So, what's an example of a memo that you wrote recently? So there's a concept. So you know, I went to a retreat recently, right, Yeah, and one of the key takeaways was like the entire group was like, dude, you guys are so good at top of the funnel market. You guys are order takers, but you don't fulfill them middle sixty percent. And then our mutual friend and even oh shit, yeah that's true. Right, you're talking about for sales specifically. Yeah, So, like you just moving back up a second. Let's the reason I called the mixing missing sixty percent is let's say one hundred people come into my funnel. Twenty people will never buy, twenty people are hand raisers, they're ready to buy, and then sixty percent that the middle sixty percent are they need to be nurtured. Right, And so I wrote an entire memo. It probably took me about two hours or so, and it ended up being like six seven pages. But through that that sparked a lot of side conversations and ideas, and now we have a list of things and we're just tackling those things now. So but there's no like, there's a lot less questions and confusion and you're actually seeing people take action in terms. Yeah, yeah, people are like and then I'll have I'll like have people talk talk about like, hey, how helpful has it been? It's like, dude, it's like amazingly helpful because now it's we're not just throwing ideas all over the place. We're like forcing clear thinking.

And I'm assuming everyone reads the memo before they attend the meeting.

And I'm assuming everyone reads the memo before they attend the meeting.

They can read it before, but you have them read it dearing because you just never know, like you like, if we go into meet, like, are you good actually read it before? Like probably not?

They can read it before, but you have them read it dearing because you just never know, like you like, if we go into meet, like, are you good actually read it before? Like probably not?

Right? Well, six pages is hard to read during a meeting. So here's how it works.

Right? Well, six pages is hard to read during a meeting. So here's how it works.

So for Amazon, the way they do it is, if it's a six page narrative, you allocate sixty minutes for it, right, the first twenty minutes, so a third of the meeting is for reading. The other forty minutes is for deciding and debating. If it's a three page memo, then it's thirty minutes and it's ten minutes of reading. So people give or take we'll probably take about I don't know, two to three minutes per page to read. And so the whole thing is like it forces accountability with the entire group because nobody can say, oh, I didn't have time to read it, because people are at varying levels too. But that's just like one one thing that they do, right, There's like a bunch of other things that they do where it just it It's like, oh, okay, here's the entire playbook on how to run Amazon.

So for Amazon, the way they do it is, if it's a six page narrative, you allocate sixty minutes for it, right, the first twenty minutes, so a third of the meeting is for reading. The other forty minutes is for deciding and debating. If it's a three page memo, then it's thirty minutes and it's ten minutes of reading. So people give or take we'll probably take about I don't know, two to three minutes per page to read. And so the whole thing is like it forces accountability with the entire group because nobody can say, oh, I didn't have time to read it, because people are at varying levels too. But that's just like one one thing that they do, right, There's like a bunch of other things that they do where it just it It's like, oh, okay, here's the entire playbook on how to run Amazon.

What else does does Amazon do that you found interesting with the book?

What else does does Amazon do that you found interesting with the book?

So let me see. I mean that one's the first one that comes to mind. I'm like struggling to think of a couple other ones. Maybe as we go through this episode, I'll try to pull up a couple other ones. But that's like the main ones so far. And yeah, let me think about it as we go through this episode.

So let me see. I mean that one's the first one that comes to mind. I'm like struggling to think of a couple other ones. Maybe as we go through this episode, I'll try to pull up a couple other ones. But that's like the main ones so far. And yeah, let me think about it as we go through this episode.

Yeah, I know they have really good operators, you know, if you look at their hiring history, because I used to live in Seattle. When I lived there, there were and and I haven't read the book, but one thing that they did that was really interesting is they didn't just look for people who came from good colleges They looked for people who are really good at systems and processes, and they would find them from any parts of the world. And I remember I met this family. The guy was from India, or the whole family was from India. He did so well at Amazon. This was before they were in India, right, so, but they're still hiring from India for Amazon US, but this was before they entered the Indian market for marketing within India, and this person did really well. So what Amazon did was they took a picture of their apartment, every single thing in there and how I was laid out. Crew came in, put it on a boat, and then they moved him to the United States. Once this stuff came, the apartment was ready just the way they had it in India. Like they would go above and beyond to get really good people. They didn't care where they were from. It wasn't about the cost, because if you're moving someone from India to the United States, you're paying US wages, especially in Seattle, which is an affordable city. But the one thing I did notice when I was living in Seattle is they would look everywhere for just amazing talent and operators who are really good, not just BookSmart, because a lot of BookSmart people everywhere, but really good at systems and processes.

Yeah, I know they have really good operators, you know, if you look at their hiring history, because I used to live in Seattle. When I lived there, there were and and I haven't read the book, but one thing that they did that was really interesting is they didn't just look for people who came from good colleges They looked for people who are really good at systems and processes, and they would find them from any parts of the world. And I remember I met this family. The guy was from India, or the whole family was from India. He did so well at Amazon. This was before they were in India, right, so, but they're still hiring from India for Amazon US, but this was before they entered the Indian market for marketing within India, and this person did really well. So what Amazon did was they took a picture of their apartment, every single thing in there and how I was laid out. Crew came in, put it on a boat, and then they moved him to the United States. Once this stuff came, the apartment was ready just the way they had it in India. Like they would go above and beyond to get really good people. They didn't care where they were from. It wasn't about the cost, because if you're moving someone from India to the United States, you're paying US wages, especially in Seattle, which is an affordable city. But the one thing I did notice when I was living in Seattle is they would look everywhere for just amazing talent and operators who are really good, not just BookSmart, because a lot of BookSmart people everywhere, but really good at systems and processes.

Dude, I got more for you now because you sparked. You sparked the memory again. And I'm also looking at the sheet over here. I think I talked to you about this. But in the book, the book came out in twenty twenty two maybe or maybe twenty twenty, so it's a pretty recent book. And I remember one of the chapters said that Amazon to this day, this is what the authors believe. They don't pay over one hundred and sixty thousand dollars. Most of it is in stock right, and they believe that that helps align people for long term. Now, not everybody can do that, but like I thought that was interesting where we talked about this. We did talk about this. Yes, it's literally in the book.

Dude, I got more for you now because you sparked. You sparked the memory again. And I'm also looking at the sheet over here. I think I talked to you about this. But in the book, the book came out in twenty twenty two maybe or maybe twenty twenty, so it's a pretty recent book. And I remember one of the chapters said that Amazon to this day, this is what the authors believe. They don't pay over one hundred and sixty thousand dollars. Most of it is in stock right, and they believe that that helps align people for long term. Now, not everybody can do that, but like I thought that was interesting where we talked about this. We did talk about this. Yes, it's literally in the book.

Yeah, but that point on how they're saying one hundred and sixty, it's a bunch of bowl. The real reason they only pay one hundred and sixty is is that one hundred and sixty goes against their p and L. When they commsate people against with stock grants, that doesn't go against their earnings for a publicly listed company.

Yeah, but that point on how they're saying one hundred and sixty, it's a bunch of bowl. The real reason they only pay one hundred and sixty is is that one hundred and sixty goes against their p and L. When they commsate people against with stock grants, that doesn't go against their earnings for a publicly listed company.

Well, it's the employee spinning the narrative, right, but it's like it still is what it is. Like I get what you're saying from like a business standpoint, but yeah, it's.

Well, it's the employee spinning the narrative, right, but it's like it still is what it is. Like I get what you're saying from like a business standpoint, but yeah, it's.

Just their way to save money. There's no there's this compisation someone in stock or cash. They compensate them in stock because it helps their earnings. That's really it.

Just their way to save money. There's no there's this compisation someone in stock or cash. They compensate them in stock because it helps their earnings. That's really it.

They have another thing where so this I definitely didn't talk to you about, but when they hire people, they remove the reference checks because they found that reference checks are useless, right, So like they might do backdoor reference checks, but like let's say I'm hiring you, Neil, if whoever you gonna give me is going to put their best foot forward, and it's like, you never make an negative decision off of like their people's references, so you end up wasting a bunch of time. I was like, and I thought about it for a second, I was like, yeah, those references have never helped me. The backdoor references have helped, never going direct, and so I'm like, oh, that's going to save a lot of time.

They have another thing where so this I definitely didn't talk to you about, but when they hire people, they remove the reference checks because they found that reference checks are useless, right, So like they might do backdoor reference checks, but like let's say I'm hiring you, Neil, if whoever you gonna give me is going to put their best foot forward, and it's like, you never make an negative decision off of like their people's references, so you end up wasting a bunch of time. I was like, and I thought about it for a second, I was like, yeah, those references have never helped me. The backdoor references have helped, never going direct, and so I'm like, oh, that's going to save a lot of time.

So we're much smaller than Amazon and headcount, but we still have a lot of employees. We follow up on people's reference checks with their references or the backdoor references. Yeah, we've been doing so. We were hardcore about it.

So we're much smaller than Amazon and headcount, but we still have a lot of employees. We follow up on people's reference checks with their references or the backdoor references. Yeah, we've been doing so. We were hardcore about it.

We do this thing called extreme reference checking, where like Neil, let's say, if we're you're a senior, like a VP or something, we want two people that were your managers, two people that your direct reports, and then two people that were your peers, right, and then we're just going through all of it, and we had it all documented and like how would you rate this person everything? And even the person that was the people that were stellar across the board, they ended up being like some people were like a nightmare and some people that were like okay, they ended up being superstars.

We do this thing called extreme reference checking, where like Neil, let's say, if we're you're a senior, like a VP or something, we want two people that were your managers, two people that your direct reports, and then two people that were your peers, right, and then we're just going through all of it, and we had it all documented and like how would you rate this person everything? And even the person that was the people that were stellar across the board, they ended up being like some people were like a nightmare and some people that were like okay, they ended up being superstars.

So so we don't look at reference checks from that perspective. Funny enough, when people are given us reference checks, there's a lot of people who are going to say amazing things. That's majority. Yeah, all right, we don't really care too much about those. Funny enough, a few times we've had people actually give them terrible references. They're like, I don't even know why they added meal, which is bad judgment. Yes, yeah, so then that has helped us not necessarily hire some people because the reference checks did not pan out. But The way we look at it is, if you're gonna get someone's gonna give you reference checks. Almost everyone's gonna say positive things. You can pretty much ignore those and the ones that are negative. If you get those, it is quite a bit telling and it saved you potentially making a bad decision.

So so we don't look at reference checks from that perspective. Funny enough, when people are given us reference checks, there's a lot of people who are going to say amazing things. That's majority. Yeah, all right, we don't really care too much about those. Funny enough, a few times we've had people actually give them terrible references. They're like, I don't even know why they added meal, which is bad judgment. Yes, yeah, so then that has helped us not necessarily hire some people because the reference checks did not pan out. But The way we look at it is, if you're gonna get someone's gonna give you reference checks. Almost everyone's gonna say positive things. You can pretty much ignore those and the ones that are negative. If you get those, it is quite a bit telling and it saved you potentially making a bad decision.

Let me give you a Let me give you one or two more. I will say. When we did the backdoor reference check, so I might go to you and say, hey, Neil, we're also going to do backdoor reference checks too. Is there anybody you like us not to talk to, so not your current employer. Is there anybody else we shouldn't talk to? I remember we went to some backdoor reference checks. Oh my god. One person turned out to be like a sexual offender, and it's like we have never figured out, Like we talked to run in the other direction, right, But then the HR team really loved this person. I was like, sorry, we're just not going to do it. You just never know.

Let me give you a Let me give you one or two more. I will say. When we did the backdoor reference check, so I might go to you and say, hey, Neil, we're also going to do backdoor reference checks too. Is there anybody you like us not to talk to, so not your current employer. Is there anybody else we shouldn't talk to? I remember we went to some backdoor reference checks. Oh my god. One person turned out to be like a sexual offender, and it's like we have never figured out, Like we talked to run in the other direction, right, But then the HR team really loved this person. I was like, sorry, we're just not going to do it. You just never know.

No.

No.

So, by the way, Neil and I have have an agency owners group called the Agency Owners Association. All you have to do just go to marketing school dot Ioslash agency. Once again, it's marketing school. The Ioslash Agency to learn more and now back to the show. But anyway, so two more things over here and then we can well we can work towards getting off this one. But they have a program called the bar Razor program, right, so it's like Amazon wants to hire bar razers, so like you want to. The idea is to continue to hire people that are smarter than you, and so they have a bar razor Like, I can appoint you as a bar razer in the company if I think you're like top tier and your job is to you'll come into the interview process. You're not a hiring manager, you have no this role doesn't affect you. Basically you'll come and say like do I think this person's a bar razer or not? So you're going to oversee the process. Wit is this for a new hire or for a new hire? Okay, yeah, so imagine a new hire. Like you're kind of overseeing. You're checking in to make sure that, like the people, the hiring people managers are following the process. Also, they have a hiring manager just to make sure they don't repeat the Sorry, the people that are involved with the hiring process are they have they're assigned to a certain value right, and they have like fourteen values actually, right, and so you go through entire list. But it's like that's to make sure people don't repeat the same thing. And they're asking them historical experience related questions as it relates to each value, and then they make a decision at the end.

So, by the way, Neil and I have have an agency owners group called the Agency Owners Association. All you have to do just go to marketing school dot Ioslash agency. Once again, it's marketing school. The Ioslash Agency to learn more and now back to the show. But anyway, so two more things over here and then we can well we can work towards getting off this one. But they have a program called the bar Razor program, right, so it's like Amazon wants to hire bar razers, so like you want to. The idea is to continue to hire people that are smarter than you, and so they have a bar razor Like, I can appoint you as a bar razer in the company if I think you're like top tier and your job is to you'll come into the interview process. You're not a hiring manager, you have no this role doesn't affect you. Basically you'll come and say like do I think this person's a bar razer or not? So you're going to oversee the process. Wit is this for a new hire or for a new hire? Okay, yeah, so imagine a new hire. Like you're kind of overseeing. You're checking in to make sure that, like the people, the hiring people managers are following the process. Also, they have a hiring manager just to make sure they don't repeat the Sorry, the people that are involved with the hiring process are they have they're assigned to a certain value right, and they have like fourteen values actually, right, and so you go through entire list. But it's like that's to make sure people don't repeat the same thing. And they're asking them historical experience related questions as it relates to each value, and then they make a decision at the end.

Right.

Right.

So it's very thorough. And I'm like, I've heard of the bar razarching in the past, like, OK, yeah, I just hire people smarten you. But like the way they do it. It's all outlined in this book. And that's why I recommend everyone by the book. No affiliate commission needed.

So it's very thorough. And I'm like, I've heard of the bar razarching in the past, like, OK, yeah, I just hire people smarten you. But like the way they do it. It's all outlined in this book. And that's why I recommend everyone by the book. No affiliate commission needed.

Look, Amazon's run an amazing company. If you read the book, I haven't read it. What works, I copy one to you. But what works for them won't really necessarily work for you. You just take what you like and you you know, because Amazon got in early on the internet, there were a smart, amazing execution there. Did really well on the cloud side with AWS. But funny enough, you know, Microsoft Cloud is growing way faster than Amazon Cloud. Right, how much faster? I don't have the exact stats, but CNBC Azure versus eight WS Azure versus AWS growth. Let's see if I can come all right, revenue at Azure increased thirty percent in their quarter compared to thirteen percent year of your growth at AWS.

Look, Amazon's run an amazing company. If you read the book, I haven't read it. What works, I copy one to you. But what works for them won't really necessarily work for you. You just take what you like and you you know, because Amazon got in early on the internet, there were a smart, amazing execution there. Did really well on the cloud side with AWS. But funny enough, you know, Microsoft Cloud is growing way faster than Amazon Cloud. Right, how much faster? I don't have the exact stats, but CNBC Azure versus eight WS Azure versus AWS growth. Let's see if I can come all right, revenue at Azure increased thirty percent in their quarter compared to thirteen percent year of your growth at AWS.

Oh wow, but but a WS has bigger numbers.

Oh wow, but but a WS has bigger numbers.

Yes, analysts estimate Azure, which is about half the size of AWS five years ago, is now three quarters of its size.

Yes, analysts estimate Azure, which is about half the size of AWS five years ago, is now three quarters of its size.

Okay, yeah, the good growth, but eight ofs is still a little bigger, not a little bigger, significantly bigger.

Okay, yeah, the good growth, but eight ofs is still a little bigger, not a little bigger, significantly bigger.

Yeah, but if they can, if they're the key counters of the size, there's seventy five percent there. If you're going at thirty percent, someone is going at thirteen percent.

Yeah, but if they can, if they're the key counters of the size, there's seventy five percent there. If you're going at thirty percent, someone is going at thirteen percent.

At least of one third size for a reason, some reason. No, three quarters, that's different. Yeah, Azure will catch up really fast. Yep at that growth number. Did you see Did you see that? So why do you think? Go?

At least of one third size for a reason, some reason. No, three quarters, that's different. Yeah, Azure will catch up really fast. Yep at that growth number. Did you see Did you see that? So why do you think? Go?

Go on?

Go on?

Microsoft are laying people off right now? There's a video with what who's the CEO of Google? Sundar? Yeah, Sundar, So he made a video on why Google and Microsoft are laying people off and then his whole thing is, we're investing in the future. So what do you think that means?

Microsoft are laying people off right now? There's a video with what who's the CEO of Google? Sundar? Yeah, Sundar, So he made a video on why Google and Microsoft are laying people off and then his whole thing is, we're investing in the future. So what do you think that means?

I think they're just cutting costs to increase stock price and profitability because they got really bloated during COVID.

I think they're just cutting costs to increase stock price and profitability because they got really bloated during COVID.

Yeah. I mean you look at Facebook, look at all the costs they cut, right, and that's why they ripped. What do they go up by twenty twenty one percent a day twenty five percent? It was something ridiculousas go up more on that one day this week. I don't know if I know.

Yeah. I mean you look at Facebook, look at all the costs they cut, right, and that's why they ripped. What do they go up by twenty twenty one percent a day twenty five percent? It was something ridiculousas go up more on that one day this week. I don't know if I know.

Coinbase is at one hundred and eighty something as of the recording of this podcast. Yep, but dude, you know it literally went from three ninety four to four seventy four. That's what the graph is looking like on Google's stock. I don't know Google or Google Finance.

Coinbase is at one hundred and eighty something as of the recording of this podcast. Yep, but dude, you know it literally went from three ninety four to four seventy four. That's what the graph is looking like on Google's stock. I don't know Google or Google Finance.

Yeah, so how does this apply to you all? What it means is, hey, keep investing in valuable skills because then people will always find value. And the same thing with your business. Keep doing useful for people and then you will get paid. That's all. That's all it really is.

Yeah, so how does this apply to you all? What it means is, hey, keep investing in valuable skills because then people will always find value. And the same thing with your business. Keep doing useful for people and then you will get paid. That's all. That's all it really is.

Dude. If you make a company more money, you'll make more money. It really is that simple. If not go leave to somewhere else that a place that actually values you.

Dude. If you make a company more money, you'll make more money. It really is that simple. If not go leave to somewhere else that a place that actually values you.

Yep.

Yep.

All right, so that is it for today.

All right, so that is it for today.

Please don't forget the rate, resubscribe, go to marketingschool dot io. Slash agency to register or apply for our Agency Owners Association. We're actually gonna be doing that event May eighth to the tenth, and it's only going to be limited to a certain amount of people, So go apply and we'll see you later

Please don't forget the rate, resubscribe, go to marketingschool dot io. Slash agency to register or apply for our Agency Owners Association. We're actually gonna be doing that event May eighth to the tenth, and it's only going to be limited to a certain amount of people, So go apply and we'll see you later