One of the questions Bethany has obsessed over in her years of covering big business is this: "What is the line between a visionary and a fraudster?" If any piece of Elon Musk's current empire (Tesla, SpaceX, The Boring Company, etc) works in the long term, he’ll go down in the history books as a visionary. But will the problems he has created, and Tesla’s desperate need for cash, catch up with him? And is the way that his critics are treated, whether with his explicit or implicit consent, a clue to how this might turn out? Or is it irrelevant? To discuss, Bethany sits down with Linette Lopez, a reporter from Business Insider, who has had her own run-ins with Musk and his followers.