Ever since the days of Enron, I’ve been fascinated by this question: What separates a visionary entrepreneur from a fraudster? Being a visionary requires being able to tune out other people’s doubts, to say you’re right and everyone else is wrong, to persist through impossible difficulties because you believe your goal is grand, and worthy … even a noble pursuit. It might even require lying to non believers, at least at times. Which brings us to Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos, the scandalized and now infamous blood-testing startup, once valued at $9 billion. In this episode, I sit down with my friend and Academy-Award nominated filmmaker Alex Gibney, who has a new film about Holmes: “The Inventor: Out for Blood in Silicon Valley.”