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Doesn't hold water (water governance)

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On episode 1 of Making Waves we are delighted to bring you an interview with world renowned Aboriginal water rights academic at ANU Dr Virginia Marshall the author of Overturning Aqua Nullius.

We also feature engineer and proud Baakandji Wamba Wamba man, Michael Browne, who’s been busily embedding Traditional Owner and community perspectives into place-based planning and management of water resources in Melbourne.

We speak to Joe Flynn, a water reform expert with experience bringing together First Nations (Maori water rights) and corporate perspectives in productive conversations.

We also hear the first feature song from Kalaji, a debut album from Nyikina sound artist and acclaimed actor Mark Coles Smith.

And finally we get an important perspective from some of our future water managers at Dharma School at Daylesford.. 

Length: 1h 16 minutes 19 seconds, start times as marked

- World renowned Aboriginal water rights academic at ANU, Dr Virginia Marshall (Wiradjuri Nyemba), the author of Overturning Aqua Nullius (11m 40s and 23m 08s)
- Water engineer and proud Baakandji Wamba Wamba man, Michael Browne (14m 35s)
- Water reform expert Joe Flynn (52m 17s) 
- The first feature song from Kalaji, a debut album from Nyikina sound artist and acclaimed actor Mark Coles Smith (46m 07s)
- Some potential future water managers (students from the Dharma school in Daylesford, 50m 36s).

Books: Aquanulius, Dr. Virginia Marshall. Biggest Estate on Earth, Bill Gammage

Nominated Water Songs: Rain. (feat. Scott Darrow, Sarah McLeod, Adam Band, Jack Jones, Todd Huner)River Song. Archie RoachAnchor Me. The Mutton Birds

Feature Album: Kalaji by Mark Coles Smith Best known as an actor, Mark Coles Smith explores his Nyikina heritage and relationship to the Martuwarra in electronic album 'Kalaji' (download album from  )We most gratefully thank Kalaji for allowing us to feature 5 feature songs in the Making Waves podcast.

About us: Host / Project Director / Executive Producer / Lead Interviewer: Marnie IrelandCo-host: Troy McDonaldProducer / Interviewer / Sound Production / Editing: Nance HaxtonTheme music: James Henderson


  • Water Services Association of Australia (WSAA)
  • Yarra Valley Water
  • Icon Water
  • TasWater
  • City West Water
  • Hunter Water
  • Unity Water
  • SA Water
  • Water Corporation
  • Sydney Water


The Making Waves podcast was created over a 2 year period spanning mid 2020 to mid 2022. The views and perspectives presented are those of the individuals speaking.  They do not necessarily represent the views of the organisations associated with individuals or the funders and supporters.


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All things water. For First Nations People, water is a sacred source of life.  The rivers are the ve 
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