We’re all aware of the societal pressures and expectations put on us to have achieved certain things by the time we reach certain ages, but what about the questions we ask ourselves when a new decade looms? Whether you have or haven’t ticked off the traditional expectations of buying a house, getting married and starting a family, it seems as though we are all collectively asking ourselves more questions about who we are and what we want to be as we reach our 30s.
Joining the podcast today is Bridget Hustwaite. Bridget is a presenter, an author, a podcaster and a content creator. Going into 30, Bridget looked as though she had it all figured out: she was well established in her career, she was in a 5 year long relationship with aspirations to settle down, she was financially independent and had found purpose in her advocacy for endometriosis. And then shit hit the fan and the expectations of what Bridget thought her future would look like crumbled.
Bridget has a brand new book coming out called “figuring out 30” and chats with us about all of the unexpected lessons we learn when we question who we really are and what we are led to believe we ‘should’ want.
We speak about:
The strange internal feelings we can get around milestones
Going through a significant break up just before reaching 30
We all fear ‘starting over’. Is this the best it’s going to get?
Family dynamics and estrangement and how it shaped her understanding of herself
The way people react when they find out that you aren’t in contact with your own family members vs how common it actually is
Maternal desire. Figuring out the kid equation in your 30s
How Bridget’s endometriosis affects fertility
Can you be a feminist and support marriage?
What modern marriage means
What it’s like reentering the dating world in your 30s
You can find more from Bridget Hustwaite on instagram
You can pre order Bridget’s new book “Figuring Out 30” here!!
Bridget previously joined the pod for an episode about endometriosis
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This episode was recorded on cameragle Land. Hi guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life. I'm Cut, I'm Laura, I'm Brittany. Now we've spoken about it on the podcast so many times around different decades of age or years. I always say that my twenties were an absolute effing shit show. They were just like the years where everything seemed to go wrong and I don't know what I was doing.
Yeah, But then I always talk about the fact that I hit my thirties as well, and I did not have the life I thought I was going to have. I was so single, I'd been dumped on the bachelogue, I didn't have the white picket fans, I didn't have kids, didn't know where I was going. And it's like this idea that society says you've got to have your shit together when you really just don't.
Do you feel though, britt and I know this is an intro, but we'll get into that in a second. Do you feel like your thirties were better than your twenties or do you feel like you're like, when did you peak?
Oh man, my twenties were'lyty Like I had great twenties because I was in my twenties, I traveled to fifty countries. I went like around the world with my sister, but I was broke. And it's different now because now I have more money because I've got more of a stable job, but I don't have the time and freedom to go and do and live the life I wanted. So I think it's like it's a catch twenty two.
Yeah, it's so interesting because I think that we can approach new decades and especially real milestone birthdays like your twenty or your thirties or whatever it looks like for you, and be fearful about what it is to come. And I do think that there's something very unique about the decade of being in your thirties. It's the years where a lot of us figure out our relationships. It's where a lot of us figure out what we want in our careers, or we've come into a little bit more autonomy. But getting a better understanding of what that looks like can be really frightening. We have Bridget Husway joining us today on the podcast, and that is because Bridget has written a book and it is called Figuring Out Thirty, which is all about this topic. Something that we have unpacked so many times in our own lives, and I guess in some ways we're still figuring ourselves. Bridge isn't familiar to the podcast. We've had her on before to speak about endometriosis so long ago when we very first started.
But Bridge, welcome back to the podcast.
Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to catch up because, yeah, the last time that we did speak about ENDO, that was when shit was really kicking off for me. But I was just in like book press mode for how to ENDO, but all this kind of personal internal chaos was happening, but I couldn't really tell you about it, But now I can a couple of years later.
Yeah, so for those that may have missed it, we will link it in our show notes. But we did do an entire episode with Bridget around endometriosis. And now we are going to crack onto all the unexpected lessons that you've learned and all about the book. But before we do, you have shared previously a banging accidentally unfiltered where you've vomited at you work Christmas party. But do you have another one for us?
I do well, the one that I thought of was the most recent one that's happened, and in a nutshell, it was telling Troy Sevann to go we wi and it got captured on National Live TV, and it was you go wee wee wee.
Oh you just go do a wee wei.
Yeah, I just said to him, you go we wei. It was at the Arias just recently, and I know, and I just decided to be like, go Toilee, toy, like toy Savann. The cameras weren't meant to be rolling, and they were. And then I watched the Arias back on, you know, on Stan and that whole thing is in conversation. He needed to go to the toilet. He just won an Aria, and so we had him backstage, and you know, we wanted to make it quick for him because he was clearly needing.
To pay past it.
Yeah, and it was actually a bit of an extensive chat, and so we try to wrap it up and then I'm staring at the camera thinking that it goes off, because you know, like when you're on TV and you stare at it for a few seconds and everyone's just walking around as if like we have just gone off air. And I just turned to him and go, you go wee wee and he's like, yeah, I go wheak wee and walked off. Brigain made it to the broadcast.
I'm more interested whether you said it satirically, like will you try? Was it meant to be a joke or is it just something that you would say in a normal conversation.
Yeah, got a.
Normal conversation that was like so nurturing of me, But I did not intend that to make the bra.
Always my fear, like working in radio or TV or whatever, when you have an aspect of being live, it's always my fear that somehow it's gonna like when you're talking in between breaks or whatever, that you're gonna go to air like you need to really monitor yourself.
See the mum vibes in me is just like there's nothing wrong with saying we we. I'd be like, do you mean to wipe your bum? Do you need? Do you mean to wipe your bum?
To me all the time exactly, But it was just like such a professional, considered music chat going straight to that and yeah, I don't know, don't trust anyone, don't trust any producers, don't trust cage. No, it would be fine, but like you just never know when the cameras are still on, still rolling.
I mean, we got the press release for your book that kind of rolled across our desk, and Keisha literally devoured the book at a weekend and was like, you need to speak to bridget about this. And you know, I kind of think about my like I said, I think about my thirties, and I think about how they've been such pivotal years for me, like so much change has happened, but I also think they've been some of the best years of my life so far.
What was it about figuring out.
Thirty or turning thirty that made you want to write a book about it?
Well, approaching thirty, I thought I had everything kind of downpat So on paper, it looked really good that I was hosting my own radio show, I was an author, yeah, becoming an no, I was an author approaching every yet that much yeah, already an author, approaching thirty five year relationships. So felt like that was pretty concrete, I guess.
Which is laughable now.
Yeah, and I'm sure we'll get into that. But so these things on paper, you know, financially independent, all looked really good. But there was still just a very lingering sense of unease about approaching thirty. It kind of built up over the months, but as I was getting nearer and nearer, and then there was just this one night, middle of the night and ended up being four days before I got dumped. Four days before that even happened, I was up at like one am and just put a notes entry in my phone being like, I don't know what it is, but like, I'm freaking out about turning thirty, Like why I have all of these things. I mean, I'm not married, and I don't have kids, and I haven't owned like my own pet yet. I'm not sure if those are the things that are freaking me out or I'm just getting this weird sense of uneasy. And I don't know if that was a weird anticipation of I guess what was to come. But it's a really interesting thing because I don't think I was thinking about it at all until just yeah, those very close moments leading up to actually turning thirty, and you know, being in lockdown was probably an interesting situation with it as well, because I was kind of confined to this apartment that I was living in with my partner at the time, and I was feeling restless in that sense. But then I kind of was looking around me, and I guess more so from my friends back home and Balorite being in like a regional area, there's people settling down and some of my ex's friends were getting married and stuff, and I just didn't feel like a grown up, the kind of grown up that I thought I needed to become thirty, there was definitely a gap between where I was at and where I thought I should be, and so that kind of catapulted everything. I mean, the breakup was six days before How to Endoor came out, and it was just freaking chaos. The year of thirty was just such a huge transformative year for relationships, fertility, even just looking back at family stuff and being like, why am I the way that I am? It was a really big personal debrief and also just thinking about why are women in particular freaking out about this? And why do we have the pressures with aging and you know, the biological clock and this crazy sense of urgency and can we please talk about it more.
I definitely think that thirty as an age, it's kind of like the first time that you become really conscious of age, Like I don't mean my twenties, kind of just like say o by. I never had a point in my twenties where I was like, oh, I need to think about these things. But it was the year I also turned thirty that I was like, fuck, my life is not where I thought it was going to be.
It's because we as a society put that expectation on and the fact that we just make thirty the benchmark because it is a new decade where you are supposed to have a little bit more responsibility, because everyone gives you a bit of leniency in your twenties to be like a bit.
Of a mass, a bit of a waker, great.
With your money, whatever it is, you get a hall pass. But in your thirties you don't get as much grace, I don't think. And also I think it comes from I'd love to know what you think as well. But thirty is crucial for women because we are told statistically and scientifically biologically that our clock, our biological clock, is slowing down. So that's just not a number that we've pulled, you know, from anywhere society pulls numbers out of their buttthole when it's like you should own a house by thirty. But it's a little bit different when it comes to fertility, because we know there is a clock. Do you reckon you have any more insight now since you've done this deep drive on your on for you specifically, do you think that all of this uneasy and anxiety that you felt that night, do you think that came more from your own internal pressures or from society's pressures. Or do you think maybe you felt a little bit unsettled because you knew maybe something was about to change a few days later, as you said, you got broken up.
With Yeah, kind of all the above. I think, you know, when I look back at my twenties, I was twenty one when I started to be really career focused and really striving to be a music presenter, and I got my first time, my first full time gig in that field at the age of twenty seven. So the thought of kids was just never in question, nor was marriage. I never felt any direct pressure from my parents or anything. They've been amazing in that regard, like, I've never once felt an ounce of pressure from them that I need to marry someone, or settle down or have kids for that matter. So I think there was I guess that internal comparison. I think again, with lockdowns because we you know, I was in Melbourne, so I was very confined and once you kind of come out of lockdowns too, or even when you're in the midst of it. There was a really interesting thing that I read called the pandemic SKIP. So it's kind of like, you know, you don't feel like a lot of my friends turn thirty in lockdown and you don't feel like you're that age because you haven't been able to go out and experience, you know, those last few years or months leading into your thirties. But now you're kind of at that age where you initially thought this is when I was going to have kids. I mean, my mum had four kids under the age of four when she was thirty two, and I'm thirty three, and I just could not relate to that at all. Like that terrifies me when I think about home ownership as well. I mean, obviously cost of living is cooked, so that was never a direct pressure. But I think it's like a historical societal pressure because what we've seen previous generations do, and I think, being like millennial women, we've kind of been not the I don't want to say we're the first, but where a generation where we haven't been literally ticking off tick tick tick tick because our parents, you know, we're going through that time where they could begin women were beginning to be in the workplace, But now we are very much in it.
I think it's fascinating to me, though, because this is such a universal feeling that so many women in their thirties have.
But the thing is, so many.
Of us feel like this collectively, but so many of us are not in you know, stable relationships or the relationship that we thought we would be in by this time. A lot of us don't have the jobs of the careers that we thought we would have. And I'm not sure if there is even though a lot more people are talking about it, I don't know if we find collective comfort in this, because I still think we compare ourselves every day. On Ask Guncut, we get questions from people who are all different ages, who say, like, my life is just not where I expected it to be. For you, going through a breakup, a really significant one just before thirty, how did you grapple with that change of identity from going from Okay, this is what I thought life was going to be, and now I'm here and I have to rebuild.
Yeah, it's an interesting one. Yeah. Again, you realize that space of where I was, where I thought I would be, and I hadn't fully yet embraced I guess the idea that those traditional markers of success didn't necessarily apply to me in the way that I expected. I just didn't know how to sit with that. And I think with a breakup as well. I mean that was the first snowball, and it was a very significant one at that because, you know, despite it was funny, despite having such a personality out there, being on Triple J and stuff, I felt like my identity had really collapsed when that breakup happened, and then going straight into book press mode too. Not that I didn't have a chance to process it. I kind of had a real game. I had no choice but to kind of, you know, face it front on and sign up for therapy, and you know, I really made a conscious effort to make sure I was processing things in real time. But I also didn't want it to taint the success of my book and everything.
Did you see it coming the breakup?
Look, it should have happened four months before it happens. So we had a conversation four months beforehand where I actually came to him and said that I was feeling unhappy. I was actually looking at getting my own rental, and I think that was a pretty I don't want to say a red flag, because it's.
A pretty big red flag for a while, it's a pretty five.
Yeah, I think it's a red flag.
For the red flag, but like, yeah, it really is.
Especially when you're already living together. So don't want to say that. You know, there are some relationships out there where they don't live together for a really long time. But for us to go from living together to me now thinking about just having my own space again, and I was really yearning a sense of independence, and again lockdown probably amplified that, but I also was thinking, but I was suppressing it so much because I was approaching thirty that I was like, no, this is the one, this is the relationship, This is the serious relationship after my last youthful, reckless relationship, and we're approaching five years. I think what we really struggle with at this point in our lives, as we enter our thirties and throughout our thirties even our forties for women, is the fear of starting over. People we hear so much about fomo and being left behind, and there's a very unique tension between those. But it's something about the fear of starting over that really terrifies women, and for good reason. I mean, if you look at pop culture what we grew up watching and how thirty was embodied. Bridget Jones, Rachel Green calculating the timeline in Friends.
That's Friends Laura. Laura doesn't watch Friends, so I'll just break that down.
Oh okay, well that's a good episode to start on. Yeah, to be fair, I only started watching it in the last like eighteen months.
Blasphemy both of you.
I think as well, this idea of starting again, it is such a recurrent question that we get through our ask gun cuts from our listeners. The fear of starting again also comes from this fear of well, what if I don't get something that's better than this, Like what if this is as good as I either a deserve or b I can get, Especially when you find people who have found themselves in relationships that maybe aren't fulfilling, but they're a nice person.
They're not in a toxic.
Relationship, they're just dating essentially someone that they've maybe outgrown.
I think also tied into it. As another layer is the sunk cost fallacy of well, I'm thirty and I've already I've already contributed five six seven years of my life to this person, Like I don't want to quote unquote waste that time, Like what a waste that would be to start again now. So I think it's like aspects of all three.
What did starting again look like for you?
Well, I mean, so we were three weeks into a new rental lease. We just moved into a new townhouse, so we were on like a month to month kind of thing, but we signed on this new twelve month lease. Kept checking in with him throughout that whole process, being like you sure you want to do this? Things were kind of tense, I guess stress with that move. Also in the lead up to the book. It's funny looking back, you know, because we were literally sleeping back to back in bed. There was no affection, so much distance, and I just, I guess was also so caught up in my book stuff that I didn't kind of clock it at the time. So, you know, Dolly Olderton has used a really great kind of analogy of sorts about this. She said in her Life Lessons, like if you had a big red button in front of you and if you could press it, and you know, you get through a breakup and all the practical things were no fuss, like it was fine, don't even think about those things. They would be taken care of if you could press a button that allows you to do it. Would you break up with this person? And if you're going if you're saying yes, and it's like, well you got to break up with them, because it's the practical aspect, and yes, that whole starting over for me, it was you know, having to find a new apartment to live in because there was like no way I was going to stay in this freaking townhouse that we just broke up, and you know, those logistical things. It's also the unraveling of routines, of relationships that you have with their family and friends, the dividing of belongings. I mean, fortunately in our case at least, like it could have been way more stressful in the sense that we didn't have a pet, we didn't have kids, we didn't have a mortgage, we didn't have joint bank accounts. So in comparison to other situations, like you know, it wasn't all bad, but it was still fucking stressful, but we got there. Took time, but it was not fun.
Bridget you wrote in your book, the older you get, the higher the stakes are. Can you talk a little bit about what you mean by that in terms of relationships specifically?
Yeah, well, I think it goes back to that whole fear of starting over and when you are in your thirties, and even if you're in your forties as well. The older you get, and you know, when I think back to my first breakup, right, so I just had to pack my toothbrush and get going. That was it. You know, there really wasn't much to it. A couple of drunken follow up pook ups in the months you know that came and that was stupid, but there was no big you know, it wasn't a big breakup. This was a big breakup because there was five years of emotional investment. I think the emotional investment side of things is very underestimated at this period in our lives, because, as you guys said before, when you're kind of thinking about I've put so many years into this relationship and I don't want it to be a waste or I've put all of this in because I thought he was the one and I definitely put my x on that pedestal of being the one, you know, and he wasn't, but I would I think I was so also just so scared of failure, you know, and that the relationship wouldn't work out and it should be working out at that age. So I think that's a big part of it. The higher the stakes. Again, it kind of goes back to if you in the relationship and you're not sure, but you're still cruising along and you are you know, you get to that point where you might have kids, and you have more of these practical things, and it just makes the whole separation a lot more difficult for you, if that makes sense.
Yeah, And I love this, but I almost think it has a time limit to it, because it's like the older you get, the higher the stakes are. I would say that for a woman, the higher stakes are kind of in your thirties or in your forties. Yeah, And for a lot of people who want children, once you've gone past that window of fertility, that window of yes, do I want kids?
Is this the person?
And a lot of relationship decisions in these years for a lot of people, and I don't want to speak for everyone, because there's loads of people who don't want to have kids, but they're driven by this idea of like, Okay, I can't waste time. The thing is is that once you get to a certain age, you might be in your fifties or your sixties, and I have friends who are dating now in that age group, and they're like, I have no time for bullshit because there's nothing that keeps me wanting more with this person if they're not amazing, Because what am I going to do? Spend twenty years with some fucking loser and time seventy But they're not gonna They're not going to like almost progress it as quickly as they might have had they been in a window when kids was part of this equation.
Yeah, and I think a lot of people and it's to no fault of their own, because again it speaks to this wider societal pressure and the biological aspect. Sometimes we get so caught up in trying to attain this thing, and again it's the idea of it as well that we will never kind of stop to think or question even if the person that if this is the person that we want those things with it's almost like a you'll do, like, let's just get it done. I mean, and I'm not saying that's the case for a lot of people, but I know I've definitely been guilty of having that kind of mindset, especially when I was twenty nine, because I was starting to think about children. Then I was actually thinking I was doing my own timeline. So I was like, oh, you know, maybe thirty one, I'll take maternity leave from the ABC and I'll stop doing good nights for that year, and that's when we'll have a kid. But I wasn't actually in a state or ready to have kids, but I was just doing the math there because I felt that deadline.
And I know, I like I'm the one who made it just about children in that kind of questioning. But I do also think it pertains to other aspects, like it could be about getting married and having you know, because when all your friends and everyone around you seem to be in happy relationships, they're getting married, or they're moving in with their partners, all of these things kind of shine a spotlight on yourself and you go, well, why don't I have that or who is that person that I'm going to do? Those things?
With even career as well. Liked about career being scared to quit or change industries at that age. It's all terrifying.
Yeah, And it does come back to that idea of what you said, Brute, like this idea of how much time you've put into something is how much harder it is to walk away from it entirely. You speak about an interesting relationship dynamic that you have, and it's something that a lot of people have to navigate. Is kind of as we get older, figuring out what does that relationship look like with our parents or also with our siblings when we no longer have like a juvenile relationship with them because we've got to be friends with them. But we move into adults who can choose the relationships we have. You know, in my life, like Matt doesn't have a relationship with his dad. He made an active decision in his thirties that he doesn't speak to his dad anymore, and that's the relationship they have. But something a lot of people might not know about you is you have a twin mm hmm.
Yeah, and it's rise as people because it's like not only a sibling, but it's.
A twin, you know, and you like the same person.
We womb mates, you know. And I think because it kind of stems back to that ideal or assumption that you know, twins are the closest bond of all and by no means my disputing that, because I've seen that for pretty much all the twins that I do know, except for my situation. My dad's also a twin. He's got a twin sister, but also no contact, So estrangement is a real Honestly, the topic of family dynamics and estrangement, I think was the biggest one for me. You know, once I got over the real bumpy bits of heartbreak, I really was wanting to kind of I just had this crazy curiosity. It's like, you know, when you're a toddler and like you'll have this laura like when your girls are like but why, but why? But why and they're constantly asking but why. For me, when I was thirty, I was just like why am I like this? Like why do I, you know, regulate my emotions like this? Or why do I stress like this? And how has my both my parents had quite abusive upbringings. My dad had a very abusive upbringing. His dad took his own life. So I never met his dad. That was before I was born, but it was kind of as a result of this just awful upbringing that he was responsible for. So there's just been a kind of a legacy of trauma I suppose that has kind of trinkled through my family web and coming to understand how that has influenced me as a person, but also my familiar relationships and why estrangement is just so big in my family, Like estrangement is my normal. So I have a twin sister and you know, she decided to essentially cut me off would have been nine years ago, but then we briefly had contact the year that we were thirty, and it was looking promising that we were able to like, you know, get on that path of mending the relationship. But then she kind of cut me off again and it was a very you know, I'm sure she has her reasons, but it was a very devastating thing for me, like to have this breakup and then a few months later have this ghosting essentially twin sister. And it's a very interesting thing to talk about, right because you want to be to write about because I've wanted to be very conscious of how I'm articulating it and to talk about my feelings and my experience and kind of look at this bigger picture as to what it means for estrangement of family dynamic in a broader sense without exposing relatives or making them feel like you don't want to air dirty laundry.
And it's half a story.
You know, you can tell your side of a story and your side as to why a relationship dynamic doesn't exist anymore, but that only accounts for that version of it, and not the reason why someone might have made the decisions they've made. It's something that's prevalent, and I think a lot of people as we get older have to decide whether or not they want to keep family members as part of their life. Could it could also be because you know, you might have a challenging relationship with a parent, and then you decide, well, do I want this person to actually be a grandparent figure for my children. There's so many parts of like relationship dynamics that have to be figured out as you're older. And I think sometimes, like when you're growing up, you kind of just get dealt the cards that you get dealt. But then when you're an adult, you get to choose the people that you surround yourself with, and family looks different for different people.
Yeah, and especially in the case of thinking about whether or not I want to start my own family. For me, I was like, I need to just figure out the family that I've already got before I even think about starting a new one. I just had this crazy curiosity about it. And it's also kind of you know, a really big part of growing up with this is coming to that place where you're able to practice empathy for the other person, for the other relative, because like you said, there's always gonna be two sides, and like, I have to respect, you know, I have to respect that from my siblings and particularly my twin sister. It's having empathy for that. But also so I suppose just not normalizing it, but I just would love to have more conversations that this is actually a really common thing. Not only is it a very common thing for people to experience, especially in adulthood, but it's not a decision that's ever made lightly for anyone involved. You know, we don't just do it for shits and giggles. And I mean you just have to look at the queer community as a prime example of you know, for so many of them not being accepted by their family, and they want nothing more than to be accepted by their family, but to protect their well being, their boundaries and for them to feel accepted, you know, sometimes they have to just cut off those tis. It's never a decision that is easy, but for many people it's just out of necessity. And that's just what it is.
So to be clear, you don't just have estrangement just from you and your sister. All the three other siblings that you have, they don't talk to your parents at all. You're the only one of four siblings that have a regular contact with your parents.
Yeah. So my older sister, I think she is in contact with them every now and then. But I'm like the only only child who will go back, you know, to say at their house. I have Christmas with them every year. Yeah, it's the constant relationship. So and I don't And I honestly, I don't even know if my siblings talk to each other, Like, I just don't know.
Do you understand why?
I understand, I mean not fully my older brother and sister. I understand from a broad sense of you know, when we think about our upbringing, and you know, I mentioned this in the book and prompted a difficult conversation with my dad. So due to his abusive upbringing and how I guess that kind of trinkled through to the way that he was a father, he really struggled with regulating his emotions, and we just remember him as really angry and scary. And I think it just got to the point, like I remember, you know, my twin sister never never really got along with him and never wanted a relationship with him. And I think for my older my older sister moved out of home when she was seventeen to go do journalism cadet ship and my brother I had a conversation with them about nine years ago about how I guess it had made him feel. And we've never like, the last time we were all together was my twenty first birthday party, you know, and I'm thirty three, so I don't know, like I haven't sat down with them to be like, all right, let's you know, hash this out. I connected. I reconnected with my cousin who's in New Zealand and is the daughter of my dad's twin sister, who I haven't seen for gosh, nearly twenty years. I actually connected with her the year I turned thirty because yet me and dad had a bit of a blow up and we had a zoom for like two hours, and she told me about her upbringing because of how her mum was, you know, in an abusive upbringing and how that shrinkled to her parenting. And it's a really big chapter in the book and it's very hard to kind of tell it in a nutshell. But yeah, I don't know if that opportunity will come about or if there's even a desire to sit down with the siblings, but again, it just has even though I don't know their full perspective, you still and I may never will, but you still kind of have to have that kind of empathy and acceptance and kind of just focus on how it's affected me and how I want to be better out of it from my end, if that makes sense.
It's such an interesting conversation to talk about, and we've spoken to Sam Fisher on this podcast before, if anyone who wants to go back and listen to that. We had a really quite I mean, it was quite an intimate conversation around how he chose to no longer have a relationship with his dad. And I think unless you come from a family where estrangement is a thing, it's really hard to understand how you could ever get to a point where you choose not to have a relationship with either a parental figure or a brother or a sister. And I think sometimes people think, well, there must have been really bad abuse, must have been like, the abuse must be so bad that it's unforgivable. And in some cases that's absolutely the case. But in other cases, it's a subtle yet consistent disregard for your boundaries or your respect, and it's and I think as an adult, you get to a point where you go, do you know what, I no longer want to be disappointed by my parents. I no longer want to be disappointed or devalued. And so there's a choice that's made because you're like, it's very considered, it's very hard, but you go, I will be happier if I stop putting my happiness in you actually showing up to this relationship in a way that's helping for me. And unfortunately it is a choice that some people have to make. And I know even for us, like we had these really big conversations Matt and I around when we had kids or when we got married, because Matt's dad's never been a part of that and the kids have not met him. And I was like, oh, do do you think, like, you know, the kids, maybe he should meet the children, and and Matt was kind of like, I'm not doing that for me, and I'm not doing that for them, so I'd be doing it for you.
And that's a weird thing.
So yeah, it's a big conversation that absolutely permeates some families.
And I think what makes it even harder is when is the reaction from external people, you know, because.
They can't understand it.
Yeah, because we always view family as the sole centerpiece of our life, and it's certainly true to an extent, but it doesn't have to be the sole fulfillment, much like just having you know, the one in a romantic sense. But that's probably been the hardest thing for me, is the reactions and because like, for me, it's my normal, like I've accepted it, so I don't really know any different for other people who here, like you have a twin and wow, what's that? Like, what do you mean you don't talk to your twin? And it's just like, I mean, I don't know, and I think that's why people really don't like talking about it, or they feel a lot of shame, like it's their fault and that they've failed in some aspect when it is more common than what we think. And yeah, I really hope that chapter in particular helps people, you know, open that dialogue or just feel a little bit more seen and validated. I mean, for me at least, writing it just again prompted some difficult conversation with my dad because he and Mum had to sign off on it, like you know, they have to sign off on what you're saying, and that wasn't easy, but I was and but Dad was really good, and he was like, you know, if this is important for you and like your growth and you know, for your book, and like I'm happy for you and I support it, and you know, this is great. But it wasn't easy, and I felt sick that they had to read it, and I had to be very careful being like, again, it's not an attack or exposing you or saying it's not a right or wrong again, it's just coming back to how I've felt and coming back to me understanding why I am the way I am and what I want to do with that kind of knowledge moving forward in my thirties.
Do you feel like the relationship you have had with your family and with your brothers and sisters has that had any impact on whether or not you think you want to go down the track of having your own family.
Yeah. Absolutely, This whole dynamic has been probably a big influence as to why I don't have a particularly strong maternal desire at this point, because I do think about, like, you know, they're not going to have contact with any aunts and uncles. On my end, if I was to have children with my current partner, Oscar, you know, he's really close with his sisters and his brother and his mum, So you know there's that side of the family which is fabulous. But oh, it's been a huge part of it, you know, just thinking about what kind of environment I suppose I would want to bring a child into. And when I look back, even growing up, me and my twin used to say to each other like, because dad was, you know, in conflict with his siblings, and mum cut off her brother, and mum cut off her brother her mum as well. I remember me and my twin saying to each other like, oh, we're not going to be like that, Like we will, you know, talk to each other and we will have a relationship in adulthood, and the exact same thing has happened, you know. Yeah, It's been a big factor as to why I don't have a particularly strong maternal desire at the moment, which in some ways is annoying, but then it's not because it's like I can't force it. And I know, I was talking to some girlfriends on the weekend who are like so freaking ready to be kid to have kids, and they're just really, really eager, and I if I don't have that energy, I'm not ready, Like I'm still leaning in then section and I don't want to have one just for the sake of having one. But then it's also when you think about when you're older, and with my endomitriosis, come that point where I do try to conceive what's that going to look like? Is it going to be easy? And will future Bridget look back on past Bridget and be like you idiot, like you should have But you can't live with that kind of mindset or mentality, because this is how I feel in the moment, at the time, and nothing's going to change that, and I can't regret that, do you, Like, Yeah.
It's so true, like the decisions that you make for yourself, whether or not like there's no oh wait, no one has a crystal ball.
No one knows.
But I think when you make decisions that I have a lot of thought and have a lot of consideration put into them, as it seems that you were doing. I don't think you're gonna wake up when you're forty or fifty or sixty and be like, Wow, I regret that decision because it's an accumulative decision that has been made many times.
I disagree. I think you can one hundred percent regret decisions down the track. You can't change them, but I think you can be like, what, maybe I shouldn't have made that decision.
Yeah, but I mean maybe if it's like a one off thing.
But I think when you consciously setting your life up in a certain way, what I mean is people who make a conscious decision to not have children, there's already enough fear mongering around you're going to regret that decision. I don't know anyone who made a conscious decision to not have children who has gone on to regret it in their fifties and sixties. The only people who I know have experienced that are people who really wanted to have children but tried fertility treatments too late. That's a different conversation. It's not around like consciously choosing to have kids. But I mean, I guess everyone is different. But I think people live with that fear enough. I don't think that that fear needs to be driven home that like.
You let regret it. People are aware. That's the whole conversation is I.
Disagree, and I disagree just because I'm in it. I disagree because I don't know if I want kids or not, and I constantly bounce between if I'm going to regret not having them or if I'm going to regret having them, Like my seesaw is teetering constantly either way, I will feel regret because I'm not convinced of which way I want to go. So I know that I'm going to have that feeling. I'm hoping that changes very soon.
Yeah, And I hope you get to a point where it's like you can just be a bit kinder to yourself and honor what you're feeling in that moment and not blame yourself. I think we're so easy and quick to blame ourselves in those situations. And I think in terms of motherhood as well. There's a UK writer called Ruby Warrington who wrote a fabulous book called Women Without Kids. She talks a lot about the mummy binary and how it's so black and white across society that if you're not sure about having kids or it's a no, that must mean you're like selfish or indecisive and just not mature or whatever. But it really is a spectrum where it's it's not a clear yes or no, and we're all at different points of the spectrum. Like I'm bouncing up and down, BRIT's bouncing up and down. And the last thing we need to do is like beat ourselves up about it. It's so fucking annoying.
You're endometriosis, so just feel everyoney in and how does that affect your fertility?
So if we're going to go like a little bit down the scientific biological ground, there's like a structural component. So if you've got endometriosis just popping off down there, and it's like a physical barrier or physically impairing the environment in which the you know, the egg's trying to like fertilize and do all that kind of stuff. So there's that kind of aspect to the like inflammatory nature of those lesions. I suppose can function impair the function of both the egg and the sperm and then prevent that you know, correct environment for it to kind of you know, develop and have that implantation kind of stuff. The structural issues again because if you might have ENDO, like on your filopian tubes or whatever. There's also the third one, which I love mentioning, is like painful sex is like a very common symptom of ENDO. So if you're gonna have painful sex, you're like less likely to do it. So that's I guess another way, feel like.
Avidence means I can't get pregnant.
Yeah, essentially, but up to fifty percent of people with ENDO will experience infertility. And it's just really annoying because it's like, I'm not ready now, but what happens. Like I went and got my you know that that AMH test and stuff, and it was all looking fine, but you just don't know until you go and try to conceive, and anything can happen. I may be able to conceive naturally. I kind of a feeling, you know, when you just have a feeling that that's not gonna happen, or like you know your body, Like I just have a feeling it's not gonna be easy for me. Yeah, but that's kind of where it's at. And you know, I want to freeze my eggs probably in a year's time, so when I'm you know, down the point t end of thirty four heading thirty five. But you know, another spanner for me is that, like I live in Perth right now. I moved over here for my partner's work, so I don't have any immediate network here. I wouldn't want to have a child here. I don't know how long we're here for depending on his work. So that's another conversation. It's like, well, where am I going to freeze my eggs? I'm going to freeze them in Melbourne? Am I going to freeze them in Perth? How do you ship them across a NULLI wall like, yeah, it's yeah, it's a really it's a bit of a head fuck with the fertility front, and your ENDO is just an added layer to it with how it can affect it even happening in the first place.
You asked a really interesting question in your book, which I find fascinating. You said, can a woman who's fought for equality and respect against sexism and misogyny become a bride or does that make them a walking contradiction.
This was such a fun chapter. So this is all about marriage.
Yeah, because I'm getting married, yes this year, mid mid next year. Sorry, And I feel the same. I feel like you know the podcast. We are fighting for women's rights constantly, We're always talking about feminism. Yeah, but I can't wait to get married.
At the same time, this was a very interesting thing and a very fun thing for me to explore the marriage chapter, So not only whether or not I want to get married, but taking it a step further and kind of leaning into that real curiosity that I've had in my thirties of being like, why do I want to get married? And how did this start? And what's in it for me? So I dived into a real rabbit hole of exploring the origins of the institution and seeing how it has played across cultures over time, how it has evolved. And I think that's a real privilege to even sit and ponder whether or not I want to get married, because in areas of the world people are still being forced under the age of eighteen. There's literally just news coming out now of Columbia that they've been able to pass this law that makes it illegal to be married under eighteen because one in four Colombian women and girls were being married under the age of eighteen. It's been like seventeen years of campaigning. So, like childbrides, non consensual arranged marriage is that kind of thing. So very lucky that we can even ponder whether or not we want to and that our lives don't literally depend on it. But yeah, I was just really curious to kind of step into that discussion of you know, I consider myself feminist, and I think there's with feminism there's agency and choice. But with the institution like marriage, where does that come into play? So I spoke to a lot of well known feminists in Australia for their take, and it was just so interesting because they're a feminists who completely oppose it and want to abolish the institution, and then they're a feminists who who are married, and you know, who say yes, there is capacity to redefine this framework and push it in that direction where it works for you, and that it's about it's a personal choice, and that it's a personal, you know, reflection of your relationship and what your marriage means to you. And added complexity is with marriage equality. And I remember reading a book from a lesbian feminist who you would think, if anything, that she would be the one who'd be like, like burn it down, like you know, but she wanted nothing more than to be married and is married. I think the conversation of abolishing marriage for me is I can't help but liken it to the gun laws in America, right, Like we are so far in you're not going to be able to just abolish marriage, right, so you have to move it forward. And that's what we're seeing with you know, in Columbia with these legal reforms and stuff. Move it forward in a direction that is going to benefit everyone. It's going to be equal and redefine it. Like that's how all social and legal frameworks evolve over time. But it is like it's a really tricky thing to navigate because I've definitely had that kind of you know, there's nothing worse than someone calling you like a fake feminist or that like you know, you're not actually what you claim to be when it's like I am. But I also have a particular view about this, and I do see the capacity for positive change and I love people getting married and that I don't think that makes me any less of a feminist. And so it was really interesting to speak to feminists across the board on the topic, but it was very respectful, And yeah, I think it just will always come down to a differing opinion.
I mean, it's an interesting debate, isn't it.
But I think it's we're in a sad place when we have to defend ourselves for being feminists if you have made the choice to get married, and how that somehow is a betrayal. And I say this because I know that there is this real push at the moment to be like, burn it to the ground. But I think it's probably more important to acknowledge the privilege, the privilege that we have to be able to choose what marriage looks like to us, where we live and how we live. That is a privilege that is not bestowed on all women in all places.
But certainly here in Australia.
If you are able to have agency and choice, you have the privilege to choose what does your relationship look like and what does marriage mean to you?
And not everyone can make that choice.
And I think, you know, I look at my marriage specifically, and I go, it is an incredible place of equality, but not everybody has that option, and not everyone has that choice once they enter into a marriage. And so I think as much as there is the conversation around feminism, there's a huge conversation around privilege that is linked into it as well.
Yeah, And I think that's why it's just so important for me, like what I would like for me. It's not about judging people who get married or people who strictly oppose it, but I would love everyone to just read into the origins, just to have the understanding and then you make the decision, because again, it's that kind of informed consent of like you knowing what you're signing up for and what it has historically stood for. And marriage is very complex because it has been so different across time, across many cultures. I mean back nineteenth century, I think it was Chinese women could marry dead bodies and they would prefer to married dead body so they didn't have to deal with an actual man you know.
The thing is, though it's been completely redefined, and when I get married, that does not make me not a feminist anymore. And it makes me angry that there are people out there that are putting such labels on people. And you could do so much advocacy and work for however long, and then you get married and it's like, fuck you, you're not a feminist. I do not believe in that. I do not believe we have to stick to this stringent set of rules but define who and what we are.
I think it's important to remember that everything to this day operates under a patriarchy. So in the sense of marriage, I don't think, yeah, abolishing it, because everything operates under patriarchy, so like you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. In a way, but I think it is just yeah, coming back to and we've again seen it with marriage equality, that it continues to evolve at a rapid rate and means something different for everyone. And I think regardless of whether you're married, single, de facto Polly, as long as the end of the day you can say that you feel happy, fulfilled, secure, safe, whatever your relationship status, we don't need to be tearing each other down. Yeah.
Absolutely, which is also why I think it's such a fascinating conversation around around how it links back into privilege.
You know.
We spoke to Elizabeth Gilbert who wrote Eat, Pray, Love.
Yes and Committed.
Yes and Committed is fantastic.
It was honestly one of my favorite interviews this year, and she spoke about the statistics of dissatisfaction and unhappiness in married women and how married men are the most happy version and the most like fulfilled they live longer, but married women have shorter life spans. They're the most unhappy and the most unfulfilled, and that just shows that patriarchal dynamic and why one person is bearing the weight. I mean, we all know the mental load and everything else is so much greater for women. But it is a very new time that we are living in where women able to find partners who may be progressive enough to not be total dickheads, and then they can to find what that relationship looks like for them. But not everyone has the opportunity to do that.
Yeah, and her book Yeah Committed was such a great read for my own on because Yeah, to kind of pick up from where Eat pray Love left off, and you know her and the Bali guy like I lost his shit and I was like, oh my god. The Bie guy like they both had previously been divorced and they didn't want to get married again, but it kind of came out of necessity for that immigration law for them to live in America. So really great, really great read. And I think, yeah, again just coming back to like, if you choose to get married, as long as you're doing it for the reasons that will benefit you. And I mean even in our thirties, I've seen a number of people get married because they feel like they have to or they feel like it's going to solve their relationship problems and be a really be a band day. But it doesn't actually change anything. So it's not really about for me at least the ceremony or marriage. It's for all the days that follow. Like when we're talking about relationships, you know, a marriage is not going to suddenly fix everything, And I think, just yeah, we need to be mindful of that, particularly in this period of our lives.
Well, I think that's sometimes we can look at it as a token of security. You know that my relationship is more secure because I'm married, but the reality is I mean, I'm a product of multiple divorces. My parents both got divorced, Dad three times, Mum twice. Like, a marriage is only as good as the paper it's written on if you're not making the commitment and your actual actions in that relationship, you know, like it offers no more security than a de facto relationship or anything else.
Yeah, and that was an interesting kind of comparison to be I guess some of the rights that you may be granted just because you're married in terms of the life admin stuff like for you know, the central link as an example for differing like payments or benefits, how that can differ to de facto and how we do kind of see de facto as inferior. And also like quickly just on divorce as well, you know that's not a failing. Like I had a friend who got divorced at twenty eight and at the same time she was getting divorced, everyone around us was getting engaged. And she went to her high school reunion and was like, she wore the ring even though she was divorced, but was so embarrassed to tell people. And that's another thing I think it really important to highlight in this period of our lives. So if you do find yourself getting divorced, it's nothing to be ashamed of, and you know you haven't failed.
Like it's I have a friend getting divorced now for the second time. That yeah, and she didn't want to. She's like, oh, how do I start dating again? Saying like, hey, I'm twice a forced already, and I'm like, who cares?
You also don't have to tell them straight away, Like, you don't have to tell them until you're like in a committed relationship, you know, like even then, some people may rush to get married and then find themselves in relationships where they're like, fuck, this is not what I thought.
It was going to be.
Better to have divorces under your belt and be in a happy and sustained relationship than be in something purely because you've committed to it and spend the next ten years of your life fucking miserable like that had What a horrible life to live? Yeah, bridget coming from being in this relationship, going through a breakup, and then having to navigate dating in your thirties, which you know can leave you feeling like like either and I don't want to say desperate, but like I do think like when I was in my thirties at the start, like fuck, I went on the Bachelor cause I was like, oh, my god, must meet a man. Like it worked out okay, But you know what was that, Like what was the period of getting back into dating when you kind of felt like you had the plan figured out?
Like for you, it was utterly confronting because when I entered my previous relationship, Tinder was kind of just breaking through, so we didn't have this dominant digital dating landscape. The culture has entirely shifted since I was last single, So it was really confronting in that sense of being like, oh, it's like, you know, you can't really and again being in lockdown, you can't just go meet someone out. It's a very intentional thing to download an app, to create and curate a profile, and to swipe and to initiate conversations in that manner. It was very unnatural for me. There was also and I'm mindful of how I say it, but like you, guys will be able to relate when when you have a somewhat visibility to your name. So when I went into my last relationship, I wasn't on Triple J or anything. I was nobody having like a radio national radio show and you know, a small profile but somewhat still visible, especially in a dating landscape in like Melbourne or something. I was really self conscious. I was really self conscious. And I hate saying it because I don't want anyone to feel self conscious about it, but I did. I hated seeing Bridget thirty as my profile. I really didn't feel comfortable with it. I took my time with it, and I was mindful of what I wanted, and I think this is the important thing to be mindful and aware and actually have that moment to think what do I want to get out of this. I wasn't looking for a new relationship for me. Actually, it was just baby steps and little personal developments, so like just to initiate a conversation with a guy, to reply to their story on Instagram, and have a conversation.
With a guy like fire flames.
The heart eye amuji. But those things are really big and scary for me at thirty, and I just had to take it, you know, one step at a time. And I ended up meeting my current partner on an app about a year after this. Breakup. I mean, he was my only dating app date and my only I guess only blind date in the sense that I didn't know him before I met him on the date, and thank god it went well because I was kind of getting not defeat, well, I guess I was getting a bit defeated, like it's a rough out there. It is rough out there. And to add on that extra kind of insecurity that I wish we didn't have, but we do, because again, how thirty has been portrayed, especially single and thirty Bridger Jones has not been painted in a positive light really, so it was it was hard, but I got through it, and I think more so it's just kind of coming to that understanding now that single time that I had was so amazing in that no matter what happens, and if a relationship doesn't work out, like I know, I'll be fine, and I know that I'm focusing on the right things, you know, getting fulfillment from friendships and work and just just having like an even spread and not putting my heart and soul and everything riding on a romantic relationship. But yeah, it was very sobering and confronting to enter that dating world, especially after heartbreak when you've been dumped, because that really confirms, as awful as it is, but in a way, it kind of confirms you've been rejected by the person who knows you better than anyone. And then it kind of confirms any ounce of negative self talk that you have about yourself. And you try not to let it happen, but it does.
And your partner is five years younger than you. Yeah, Cooker, I have zero issues because in the last ten years I've only dated down. My partner now is significantly younger than me. My ex was seven or eight years younger than me. Have you faced like, I hate to say backlash, but there are definitely stereotypes about women that do date younger men. Did you experience that or did you feel a bit wary entering into a relationship that was someone that was still in their mid twenties.
Yeah, I was very wary because lish like when we were talking on I didn't know at the time it was his twenty sixth birthday. That morning of his twenty sixth birthday, I was pulling up to the fertility.
Clinic to like so like the old freeze.
Yeah, like we were just on. It was just so funny like, and we didn't know at the time until a little bit further down the track when we talked about that day and I was like, oh, like, we could not be more contrasting. But for a twenty what is he now? Twenty eight? For someone five years younger than me, Oscar's very very logical, headscrewed on. He's older brother who's a year younger than me, is married with two kids, so those kinds of conversations were never scary or daunting or too much for him. He's also like a professional athlete, so he has a very disciplined routine, I suppose. But we also had really good character references for each other from a mutual friend that we didn't realize until that kind of popped up, so there was never any fear of being judged. I suppose that he's five years younger than me because he doesn't act like it doesn't feel like he feels like he's my age, feels like he's thirty three. I think there's definitely been times in terms, and this is like for all relationships, just when you kind of figure out each other's way of communicating and how we navigate conflict and those kind of emotional aspects that you can sometimes see a bit of a difference. But I wouldn't say that's like a total deal break, like those are just for me. Those are just opportunities as all relationships should have, where you can learn and grow and he can learn and grow. Because yeah, I think if you're not constantly in that kind of cycle of growth with your partner, then that's a bit worrying. I don't know, like I always want to feel like I'm learning from him or I'm learning from myself in response to something that he may have said or that I have said. Yeah, I mean, honestly, the only annoying thing is when people find out what he does and then I'm called a fucking wag. That's annoying because it's like I am, like.
I'm an author, goddamn ye feel exactly the same way.
Yeah, and it's just really that's the only annoying thing about our relationship.
But well, you like, technically I am, because wag is just a wife and girlfriend, so you're like, yeah, cool, technically I am.
But negative, we know how people are saying it, and that's what really pisses me off. Like when I got the Aria's co hosting gig. The headline was AFL wag and I was like, that's really insulting to like the twelve night never mind me being a music presenter for twelve years doing it last year. I've literally seen Oscar play three quarters of AFL and the three years that were together totally go off on a wag, you know.
Yeah, Bridget, thank you so much for joining us today. Bridget's book Figuring Out Thirty is gonna be out January seven. We're going to link all of the socials the book in the show notes, so if you want to go grab it. It is a brilliant read that I think everyone should get around.
Thank you so much. It was so nice to catch up from where we last when we last left things.
So much, so much has happened. Your absolute breath of fresh air. And I know that so many people who are in their trenches of their thirties or even like approaching these years, we'll get so much.
Out of this, I think so. Thanks gals,