This episode was recorded on Cameragle Land. Hi guys, and welcome back to another episode of.

This episode was recorded on Cameragle Land. Hi guys, and welcome back to another episode of.

Life on Card.

Life on Card.

I'm Laura, I'm Brittany.

I'm Laura, I'm Brittany.

Today's guest that we have is someone who's statistically on this podcast is our favorite guest because this will be her third time back here.

Today's guest that we have is someone who's statistically on this podcast is our favorite guest because this will be her third time back here.

Well, I'm not sure we've ever done a three time what.

Well, I'm not sure we've ever done a three time what.

Have we No, That's why she's statistically our favorite, because it's the only person who has ever done three episodes. But that's because, I mean, every time we have spoken to Terry Cole, there have been real aha moments that both Britt and myself have had around our own lives, our own personality traits. We've spoken around cheating, We've done episodes on boundaries. We were speaking about boundaries on our last ep that we did with Terry, and we were talking about high functioning codependence. And I remember sitting there during that conversation, I had this moment where I was like ping. But to give you a little bit of a background on this, I think so many of us have a perception around what codependent means, and it is not necessarily a very positive label that we would put on ourselves. I think we often think clingy, we think needy, we think can't not be in a relationship. But this definition and conversation around what a high functioning codependent is is something that's really different, and I honestly think so many people will have that same aha moment. Who'll be listening to this episode? So Terry, welcome back to the pod.

Have we No, That's why she's statistically our favorite, because it's the only person who has ever done three episodes. But that's because, I mean, every time we have spoken to Terry Cole, there have been real aha moments that both Britt and myself have had around our own lives, our own personality traits. We've spoken around cheating, We've done episodes on boundaries. We were speaking about boundaries on our last ep that we did with Terry, and we were talking about high functioning codependence. And I remember sitting there during that conversation, I had this moment where I was like ping. But to give you a little bit of a background on this, I think so many of us have a perception around what codependent means, and it is not necessarily a very positive label that we would put on ourselves. I think we often think clingy, we think needy, we think can't not be in a relationship. But this definition and conversation around what a high functioning codependent is is something that's really different, and I honestly think so many people will have that same aha moment. Who'll be listening to this episode? So Terry, welcome back to the pod.

Why thanks for having me, Laura and britt.

Why thanks for having me, Laura and britt.

Terry, you have been in this industry psychotherapist, like twenty years, You've written multiple books. What was it that led you now to specialize in this high functioning codependency.

Terry, you have been in this industry psychotherapist, like twenty years, You've written multiple books. What was it that led you now to specialize in this high functioning codependency.

It's really just what I saw. I've actually been a therapist for twenty seven year, but it's really what I saw, you know. I mean, what was happening for me is that in my therapy practice, I attracted women who were like me, which was super highly capable women like just the masters of the universe, like doing it in the world and managing businesses and homes and families and aging parents and all the things like just having it going on. And then I would see a relational pattern. If I pointed it out and say, hey, when I'm seeing this is codependent behavioral pattern, they would immediately reject, immediately go yeah, wrong, lady. Everyone depends on me. I'm the one making all the dough, making all the decisions, making all the moves, moving everything forward, doing all the emotional labor. Like I'm the rock in my family and in my friend group, and like I'm not dependent on shit is basically what they would say. And I realized they don't know what codependency is. They think that codependency is codependent. No more melody, baby, You got to be enabling an alcoholic to be a codependent. And like you guys said, weak dependent can't make a decision like the long suffering wife of like the debtor who's going out and spending the rent money. You know what I mean. But that ain't it. And that wasn't what I was seeing in my therapy practice and what I had experienced myself. So I my definition of codependency is being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the situations, the circumstances, the relationships, the careers of the people in our lives, to the detriment of our own internal peace.

It's really just what I saw. I've actually been a therapist for twenty seven year, but it's really what I saw, you know. I mean, what was happening for me is that in my therapy practice, I attracted women who were like me, which was super highly capable women like just the masters of the universe, like doing it in the world and managing businesses and homes and families and aging parents and all the things like just having it going on. And then I would see a relational pattern. If I pointed it out and say, hey, when I'm seeing this is codependent behavioral pattern, they would immediately reject, immediately go yeah, wrong, lady. Everyone depends on me. I'm the one making all the dough, making all the decisions, making all the moves, moving everything forward, doing all the emotional labor. Like I'm the rock in my family and in my friend group, and like I'm not dependent on shit is basically what they would say. And I realized they don't know what codependency is. They think that codependency is codependent. No more melody, baby, You got to be enabling an alcoholic to be a codependent. And like you guys said, weak dependent can't make a decision like the long suffering wife of like the debtor who's going out and spending the rent money. You know what I mean. But that ain't it. And that wasn't what I was seeing in my therapy practice and what I had experienced myself. So I my definition of codependency is being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the situations, the circumstances, the relationships, the careers of the people in our lives, to the detriment of our own internal peace.

How does one identify that in themselves?

How does one identify that in themselves?

Though, because I think the alternate, this original understanding of what codependency is it's way easier to point out. It's way easy to be like, oh, that's someone who can't be without a man or can't be without a person. But the definition of what you've just described, I feel like the line is so blurred between figuring out, oh, maybe I have high functioning codependency or I'm just super invested in my family and my friends and my loved ones and my businesses.

Though, because I think the alternate, this original understanding of what codependency is it's way easier to point out. It's way easy to be like, oh, that's someone who can't be without a man or can't be without a person. But the definition of what you've just described, I feel like the line is so blurred between figuring out, oh, maybe I have high functioning codependency or I'm just super invested in my family and my friends and my loved ones and my businesses.

All right, So I'm going to say exactly how you can figure it out. First of all, how you feel. Right, if you are going to do a quick resentment inventory, anybody listening to this or watching them, yes, and that's going to show you in what relationships you are most likely overfunctioning overgiving because the overfunctioning underfunctioning dynamic creates resentment. So if you're doing all the things for all the people, and you're invested in the people that you love, and you feel congreat and you have no resentment and you're not exhausted and burnt out, then go you. Then it's fine. And even if it is high functioning codependency, that can also be a choice. You can say, hey, this is my identity and I want to be that way. What I'm finding is that it's not sustainable that right, like what you could do, like in your twenties for a long time as you age start hitting perimenopause menopause, you just don't have the bandwidth to do all the things for all the people. So maybe it would be helpful if we identify it, what are the traits of high functioning codependence, so that people can see like do they see themselves in these traits? And then we can talk about behaviors really, because that's how you're going to be able to go is this me or is this not me? If we look at the traits feeling overly responsible to fix other people's problems, let's just start there, giving, like going above and beyond, giving till it hurts, even if you're not asked to, always ready to jump into damage control. There's a problem and you're like, okay, so you're going to do this. I'm gonna do this like your great in a crisis. It can also look like kind of being a little judgmental of other people because we really do think that we know what they should be doing, We really do have the solutions for them, and if they would just listen, then they wouldn't be in pain, and we would be so much happier if they would just take our friagant advice, because we can get frustrated and pissed when they don't take our advice, because now they're still complaining about the same shit that we could have solved. We did solve two weeks ago, they just didn't take action on feeling exhausted, resentful, bitter. Another trait is being hyper independent, where you're not the best at asking for help or allowing people to help you, where you're sort of like the mantra of the HFC is I got it, I'm good. We don't love it. We don't love being vulnerable to other people, which is what asking for help makes us. So it's like that hyperindependence is really something that's there, and what does it look like like in your day to day life? If you're like, hmm, I wonder if I'm an HFC, well, do you give unsolicited advice called auto advice giving the second a situation happens, are you immediately like, Okay, I've got the answer, So I'm going to google this, I talk to this person. I'm connecting you with my friend who's an MD. Like we're doing all the things for other people.

All right, So I'm going to say exactly how you can figure it out. First of all, how you feel. Right, if you are going to do a quick resentment inventory, anybody listening to this or watching them, yes, and that's going to show you in what relationships you are most likely overfunctioning overgiving because the overfunctioning underfunctioning dynamic creates resentment. So if you're doing all the things for all the people, and you're invested in the people that you love, and you feel congreat and you have no resentment and you're not exhausted and burnt out, then go you. Then it's fine. And even if it is high functioning codependency, that can also be a choice. You can say, hey, this is my identity and I want to be that way. What I'm finding is that it's not sustainable that right, like what you could do, like in your twenties for a long time as you age start hitting perimenopause menopause, you just don't have the bandwidth to do all the things for all the people. So maybe it would be helpful if we identify it, what are the traits of high functioning codependence, so that people can see like do they see themselves in these traits? And then we can talk about behaviors really, because that's how you're going to be able to go is this me or is this not me? If we look at the traits feeling overly responsible to fix other people's problems, let's just start there, giving, like going above and beyond, giving till it hurts, even if you're not asked to, always ready to jump into damage control. There's a problem and you're like, okay, so you're going to do this. I'm gonna do this like your great in a crisis. It can also look like kind of being a little judgmental of other people because we really do think that we know what they should be doing, We really do have the solutions for them, and if they would just listen, then they wouldn't be in pain, and we would be so much happier if they would just take our friagant advice, because we can get frustrated and pissed when they don't take our advice, because now they're still complaining about the same shit that we could have solved. We did solve two weeks ago, they just didn't take action on feeling exhausted, resentful, bitter. Another trait is being hyper independent, where you're not the best at asking for help or allowing people to help you, where you're sort of like the mantra of the HFC is I got it, I'm good. We don't love it. We don't love being vulnerable to other people, which is what asking for help makes us. So it's like that hyperindependence is really something that's there, and what does it look like like in your day to day life? If you're like, hmm, I wonder if I'm an HFC, well, do you give unsolicited advice called auto advice giving the second a situation happens, are you immediately like, Okay, I've got the answer, So I'm going to google this, I talk to this person. I'm connecting you with my friend who's an MD. Like we're doing all the things for other people.

And you don't even know that W is sitting next to them at the cafe, just overheard the conversation.

And you don't even know that W is sitting next to them at the cafe, just overheard the conversation.

Fact literally, those are true stories which I shared in the book about you could be codependently attached. If you're an HFC to people, you just friggin meat. So there are some distinctions between sort of the old school self sacrificeing. We talked about auto accommodating, right, what is auto accommodating. I share a story in the book. I'm at my hair salon in Manhattan. It's like a busy Saturday, and I'm laying in the sink because I have as on my hair. And now the sink traffic is backing up, and the more it backs up, the more anxious I'm getting. Here's me just laying taking a sink. I don't even need a fucking sink. I could be sitting somewhere like I don't need. You know, I've raised my hand. I have the assistant come over. I'm like, you know, I could move. She's like, yeah, lady, how you doing. We got it. We do this every Saturday. So that's auto accommodating. I took it upon me, Terry Cale, I should I should be responsible for the sink flow at my busy hair salon.

Fact literally, those are true stories which I shared in the book about you could be codependently attached. If you're an HFC to people, you just friggin meat. So there are some distinctions between sort of the old school self sacrificeing. We talked about auto accommodating, right, what is auto accommodating. I share a story in the book. I'm at my hair salon in Manhattan. It's like a busy Saturday, and I'm laying in the sink because I have as on my hair. And now the sink traffic is backing up, and the more it backs up, the more anxious I'm getting. Here's me just laying taking a sink. I don't even need a fucking sink. I could be sitting somewhere like I don't need. You know, I've raised my hand. I have the assistant come over. I'm like, you know, I could move. She's like, yeah, lady, how you doing. We got it. We do this every Saturday. So that's auto accommodating. I took it upon me, Terry Cale, I should I should be responsible for the sink flow at my busy hair salon.

But is that not just because you're a normal person that has some level of empathy and you can see that you're inconveniencing other people, even if it is indirectly. It's not you. You don't own the salon. But I feel like I would do the same thing. I'd feel like, why are we stopping this flow? And I'm stopping the next person from getting there, shit done and getting out just because I'm laying here.

But is that not just because you're a normal person that has some level of empathy and you can see that you're inconveniencing other people, even if it is indirectly. It's not you. You don't own the salon. But I feel like I would do the same thing. I'd feel like, why are we stopping this flow? And I'm stopping the next person from getting there, shit done and getting out just because I'm laying here.

But it's not though, you know, Britt, it's like it sounds like that. But here's the thing that was not my side of the street. The girl who was running that sink flow could have if she needed me to move, she would have asked me. She has eyes too, she saw that I was laying there doing nothing right. So it isn't that it wasn't my side of the street. But I was so codependently dialed into my environment it made me so uncomfortable that I was trying to fix what wasn't mine to fix. And here's why we should give a shit. What is the cost of doing that? The hypervigilance I could be laying there meditating, calling my mother, doing nothing, resting my exhausted brain. But instead you wonder why my brain was exhausted. I was not doing that. I was thinking about how they could have a better sink flow, and I was going to tell someone my idea in the middle of my ten minutes laying there like incorrect.

But it's not though, you know, Britt, it's like it sounds like that. But here's the thing that was not my side of the street. The girl who was running that sink flow could have if she needed me to move, she would have asked me. She has eyes too, she saw that I was laying there doing nothing right. So it isn't that it wasn't my side of the street. But I was so codependently dialed into my environment it made me so uncomfortable that I was trying to fix what wasn't mine to fix. And here's why we should give a shit. What is the cost of doing that? The hypervigilance I could be laying there meditating, calling my mother, doing nothing, resting my exhausted brain. But instead you wonder why my brain was exhausted. I was not doing that. I was thinking about how they could have a better sink flow, and I was going to tell someone my idea in the middle of my ten minutes laying there like incorrect.

You said something, and my very first thought was, but isn't that a contradiction to the literal definition of independence? You were like, it's the person who is so self sufficient that they can't take help, that they're so independent that they repel help. How are those things connected?

You said something, and my very first thought was, but isn't that a contradiction to the literal definition of independence? You were like, it's the person who is so self sufficient that they can't take help, that they're so independent that they repel help. How are those things connected?

Well, they are because we can be hyper helpers to other people and we love that. You mean, listen, there's a helpers high. That shit is real right where it feels amazing to help someone who's in a jam or to come up with a solution and someone's like, oh, thank God for you. You know, there's a high that comes along with that. So you can be that and not want to allow someone else to do that for you, because to do that, you must be in that state of vulnerability, and when you're in HFC, it doesn't feel good. We're very comfortable and we may not even be conscious of it. But we're very comfortable giving and doing and providing and helping and saving, right, we're super comfortable putting on that cape. We don't want to be a burden to other people. We don't want to owe other people. These are other reasons besides the vulnerability. But part of it is if an HFC, if you let someone do something, you feel like you owe them, kind of like there's a lack of mutuality in some of the relationships with hfc's.

Well, they are because we can be hyper helpers to other people and we love that. You mean, listen, there's a helpers high. That shit is real right where it feels amazing to help someone who's in a jam or to come up with a solution and someone's like, oh, thank God for you. You know, there's a high that comes along with that. So you can be that and not want to allow someone else to do that for you, because to do that, you must be in that state of vulnerability, and when you're in HFC, it doesn't feel good. We're very comfortable and we may not even be conscious of it. But we're very comfortable giving and doing and providing and helping and saving, right, we're super comfortable putting on that cape. We don't want to be a burden to other people. We don't want to owe other people. These are other reasons besides the vulnerability. But part of it is if an HFC, if you let someone do something, you feel like you owe them, kind of like there's a lack of mutuality in some of the relationships with hfc's.

I think that this is why it's so hard for someone who is a high functioning codependent to figure out that that's what they are, because you would see those traits as being I've got this, I'm independent, like you know, and exactly like you said, some of these women who may display these characteristics may very well be the breadwinner in their family, you know, and those attributes don't lend themselves to your classical ideologies around codependency. And so that's why when we were having that conversation, when we were talking about boundaries, I had this real moment and I know that in some of my past relationships, I've definitely displayed codependent tendencies, but I definitely didn't think it permeated all through my life, and then the more we spoke about it, the more we were like, oh, yeah, yeah, I see this.

I think that this is why it's so hard for someone who is a high functioning codependent to figure out that that's what they are, because you would see those traits as being I've got this, I'm independent, like you know, and exactly like you said, some of these women who may display these characteristics may very well be the breadwinner in their family, you know, and those attributes don't lend themselves to your classical ideologies around codependency. And so that's why when we were having that conversation, when we were talking about boundaries, I had this real moment and I know that in some of my past relationships, I've definitely displayed codependent tendencies, but I definitely didn't think it permeated all through my life, and then the more we spoke about it, the more we were like, oh, yeah, yeah, I see this.

Now can we draw a picture.

Now can we draw a picture.

Here for everyone and just really simplify what takes something from codependency to high functioning code dependency. What are those characteristics that a high functioning person has that a normal codependent person doesn't have.

Here for everyone and just really simplify what takes something from codependency to high functioning code dependency. What are those characteristics that a high functioning person has that a normal codependent person doesn't have.

Well, part of it is that the irony of HFC is that the more capable you are, the less codependency looks like codependency, but it still is codependency. So again the same way, my clients were not identified with codependency the old school definition. And so why it matters is because if you're an HFC, nobody's checking on you, you know what, because you're fine, right, You're always fine. We're the ones checking on other people usually, So really it's just a way of outing people. Where the way that HFC, the way our codependency and our boundary crossing, because that is what it is shows up is auto advice giving, auto accommodating, overfunctioning, overgiving, taking on more responsibility in the relationship, being like I got it, having the over and underfunctioning where you know, I would tell a joke that you know, in my twenties, I could take a perfectly functioning boy and turn him into an underfunctioner in two weeks or less, you know what I mean, Because I would just like do it all. I got it, Like, just just relax, I got it all. And it's almost like your value sometimes is in the doing and being the person that everyone comes to for, you know what I mean, for whatever they know they can count on you.

Well, part of it is that the irony of HFC is that the more capable you are, the less codependency looks like codependency, but it still is codependency. So again the same way, my clients were not identified with codependency the old school definition. And so why it matters is because if you're an HFC, nobody's checking on you, you know what, because you're fine, right, You're always fine. We're the ones checking on other people usually, So really it's just a way of outing people. Where the way that HFC, the way our codependency and our boundary crossing, because that is what it is shows up is auto advice giving, auto accommodating, overfunctioning, overgiving, taking on more responsibility in the relationship, being like I got it, having the over and underfunctioning where you know, I would tell a joke that you know, in my twenties, I could take a perfectly functioning boy and turn him into an underfunctioner in two weeks or less, you know what I mean, Because I would just like do it all. I got it, Like, just just relax, I got it all. And it's almost like your value sometimes is in the doing and being the person that everyone comes to for, you know what I mean, for whatever they know they can count on you.

Yeah, because I think sometimes we get stuck in adjusted it to my partner this morning on the way here, we get stuck in it. It's easier if I just do it, Like it's easier for you to just send me that and I will do it, then tell you how to do it now and walk you through it. So I think a lot of people get sucked into that vacuum. But we tend to talk about and see HFC in this negative bubble like it has this negative connotation to it. Can it ever be a positive that someone is an HFC. Yep, I say it like they've got a disease and HFC.

Yeah, because I think sometimes we get stuck in adjusted it to my partner this morning on the way here, we get stuck in it. It's easier if I just do it, Like it's easier for you to just send me that and I will do it, then tell you how to do it now and walk you through it. So I think a lot of people get sucked into that vacuum. But we tend to talk about and see HFC in this negative bubble like it has this negative connotation to it. Can it ever be a positive that someone is an HFC. Yep, I say it like they've got a disease and HFC.

That's correct, That is correct. Here's the thing. When we balance out the disordered boundaries and the overction in the auto right, the reactions of being an HFC. Being an HFC is your superpower, right, Your high capabilities don't suddenly go away because you get into recovery, which is all we can hope for with HFC. There's no like curing it. Right. This is your nature, this is what you learned. It's a combination of nature and nurture. But when people on the Internet push back to me and they're like, maybe I'm just nice. How about that, Terry, Maybe I'm just generous? You ever think of that, I'm like, here's the thing. If you can't not do it, it's not you being nice. Yeah, if you can't not do it, it's a compulsion like any other compulsion. So, I know we love to think of ourselves as mother Terisa. But what I'm saying to Internet people is that if you are compulsively doing this shit, it is not a choice. So it's not you consciously being nice. It's you automatically trying to change someone else's feelings or situation or circumstance because it is making you uncomfortable.

That's correct, That is correct. Here's the thing. When we balance out the disordered boundaries and the overction in the auto right, the reactions of being an HFC. Being an HFC is your superpower, right, Your high capabilities don't suddenly go away because you get into recovery, which is all we can hope for with HFC. There's no like curing it. Right. This is your nature, this is what you learned. It's a combination of nature and nurture. But when people on the Internet push back to me and they're like, maybe I'm just nice. How about that, Terry, Maybe I'm just generous? You ever think of that, I'm like, here's the thing. If you can't not do it, it's not you being nice. Yeah, if you can't not do it, it's a compulsion like any other compulsion. So, I know we love to think of ourselves as mother Terisa. But what I'm saying to Internet people is that if you are compulsively doing this shit, it is not a choice. So it's not you consciously being nice. It's you automatically trying to change someone else's feelings or situation or circumstance because it is making you uncomfortable.

I don't want to gender it, but I do see this in my friendship group. I see this with the women that i'm close with you are often the ones that get lumped with a lot of the stuff. It's the mental load, it's the kids, it's the trying to maintain a friendship group, it's the trying to, you know, have a successful career. So I wonder if it's sometimes hard for people to identify whether it's like almost as though they feel as though it's forced upon them, like figuring out, like what is it that they're choosing and opting into doing because it's a characteristic of HC, or it's because it's literally the nature of which we live, where a lot of women are tasked with the burden of not only just being the care but the worker.

I don't want to gender it, but I do see this in my friendship group. I see this with the women that i'm close with you are often the ones that get lumped with a lot of the stuff. It's the mental load, it's the kids, it's the trying to maintain a friendship group, it's the trying to, you know, have a successful career. So I wonder if it's sometimes hard for people to identify whether it's like almost as though they feel as though it's forced upon them, like figuring out, like what is it that they're choosing and opting into doing because it's a characteristic of HC, or it's because it's literally the nature of which we live, where a lot of women are tasked with the burden of not only just being the care but the worker.

And it's like you can do it all, and you got to do it all at the same time.

And it's like you can do it all, and you got to do it all at the same time.

Indeed, but here's the thing. We have choices, And the thing is I think that what I hope this book does is bring those choices from the basement to the conscious part of the mind, because if not, what does a life look like if we just HFC it up until we're dead, Like, what does that life actually look like? It's not that satisfying, I can tell you for sure, And that the bitterness and the anger and the feeling put out and the feeling martyred. You know, you don't think that women in when they're twenty one, they're like, I can't wait to grow up and become a martyr. It's got to be amazing, Like nobody wants that, you know what I'm saying. It happens over time and time and time and time and time when we're overgiving and we don't create equitable relationships in our lives. But you can change it. If you're in a situation where even if you've taken it all on because you're like, that's right, I'm superwoman. I can do it all. But maybe you're burnt out, or maybe you're resenting your partner, or maybe you don't have energy, or maybe you feel depressed, or maybe you've gained weight or whatever the things are, you know, or maybe you're going into perimenopause or menopause, and this creates a whole other ball of wax that we got to deal with that gives us we don't have the same capacity when the hormones are and because it's changing your brain, there's so many things that are going on you can change. So that's what I'm walk you through in the book is we have to be able to tolerate our own feelings because it's not your job to do what you're doing right now. In many of your relationships, it is not your job to fix other people's problems.

Indeed, but here's the thing. We have choices, And the thing is I think that what I hope this book does is bring those choices from the basement to the conscious part of the mind, because if not, what does a life look like if we just HFC it up until we're dead, Like, what does that life actually look like? It's not that satisfying, I can tell you for sure, And that the bitterness and the anger and the feeling put out and the feeling martyred. You know, you don't think that women in when they're twenty one, they're like, I can't wait to grow up and become a martyr. It's got to be amazing, Like nobody wants that, you know what I'm saying. It happens over time and time and time and time and time when we're overgiving and we don't create equitable relationships in our lives. But you can change it. If you're in a situation where even if you've taken it all on because you're like, that's right, I'm superwoman. I can do it all. But maybe you're burnt out, or maybe you're resenting your partner, or maybe you don't have energy, or maybe you feel depressed, or maybe you've gained weight or whatever the things are, you know, or maybe you're going into perimenopause or menopause, and this creates a whole other ball of wax that we got to deal with that gives us we don't have the same capacity when the hormones are and because it's changing your brain, there's so many things that are going on you can change. So that's what I'm walk you through in the book is we have to be able to tolerate our own feelings because it's not your job to do what you're doing right now. In many of your relationships, it is not your job to fix other people's problems.

It sounds like one of the main byproducts in a romantic relationship. Maybe not romantic, but is resentment. Like if you have this high functioning relationship for so long and you build resentment, And in my eyes, resentment is one of the hardest things to overcome in a relationship.

It sounds like one of the main byproducts in a romantic relationship. Maybe not romantic, but is resentment. Like if you have this high functioning relationship for so long and you build resentment, And in my eyes, resentment is one of the hardest things to overcome in a relationship.

I think I think it's probably easier to don't come for me.

I think I think it's probably easier to don't come for me.

I think it's easier to probably overcome a physical infidelity in one night than it is of fifteen years of resentment that's been built up.

I think it's easier to probably overcome a physical infidelity in one night than it is of fifteen years of resentment that's been built up.

I will agree with that assessment because the thing is a lot of times, if it's a one off with infidelity, that can be the trigger for a relationship. You know, not if somebody had a separate family that you didn't know about, but if it really was a one night experience, that can be the catalyst to know Esther Perel would say, you know, this can be the thing that brings that brings people really together and sort of you got to burn it down to rebuild it, but with resentment, and it's such a slow build with resentment, it's cumulative. So it's like all of the stuff you're not talking about, all of the truth that you may not be telling because you just want there to be peace. You just want everything to be okay. You want everyone to be okay. But that can only happen if you are actually okay. And if you feel burdened and underappreciated and exhausted, you're really not okay. And your relationship is not okay either because sooner or later there's going to be some kind of a crack, right, It's going to come to a head. But you don't have to wait for that to happen. You can do an inventory right now. If you do a resentment inventory and you go, okay, I realize now I'm resenting my partner because they said they would do this with the kids, and they don't do it unless I ask them, and then I check, and then I set it up, and then I'm the one who does the calling. You have to have a conversation that says, hey, here are the things that we do as a couple. Here are all the things I was being interviewed by someone and she just said, I'm having a seven hour meeting with my husband tomorrow. I was like, wow, and she said I realized she's like, my husband's great. I mean, people would consider him like he's modern. You know, he does a lot. But here's the thing. I still resent the shit out of him. I was like why, and she was like, because, first of all, he wants me to throw him up a parade when he does shit, and he has no idea how much that I do. Like, he wants a parade for the four things that are on his list.

I will agree with that assessment because the thing is a lot of times, if it's a one off with infidelity, that can be the trigger for a relationship. You know, not if somebody had a separate family that you didn't know about, but if it really was a one night experience, that can be the catalyst to know Esther Perel would say, you know, this can be the thing that brings that brings people really together and sort of you got to burn it down to rebuild it, but with resentment, and it's such a slow build with resentment, it's cumulative. So it's like all of the stuff you're not talking about, all of the truth that you may not be telling because you just want there to be peace. You just want everything to be okay. You want everyone to be okay. But that can only happen if you are actually okay. And if you feel burdened and underappreciated and exhausted, you're really not okay. And your relationship is not okay either because sooner or later there's going to be some kind of a crack, right, It's going to come to a head. But you don't have to wait for that to happen. You can do an inventory right now. If you do a resentment inventory and you go, okay, I realize now I'm resenting my partner because they said they would do this with the kids, and they don't do it unless I ask them, and then I check, and then I set it up, and then I'm the one who does the calling. You have to have a conversation that says, hey, here are the things that we do as a couple. Here are all the things I was being interviewed by someone and she just said, I'm having a seven hour meeting with my husband tomorrow. I was like, wow, and she said I realized she's like, my husband's great. I mean, people would consider him like he's modern. You know, he does a lot. But here's the thing. I still resent the shit out of him. I was like why, and she was like, because, first of all, he wants me to throw him up a parade when he does shit, and he has no idea how much that I do. Like, he wants a parade for the four things that are on his list.

Well you pack the dishwashaw yeah.

Well you pack the dishwashaw yeah.

And she's like, and I don't want to give him that because he doesn't even know the one tenth of what I actually do to keep the shit running, Like he does not know. And I was like, but babe, who's fault is that he doesn't know? Because you're not telling him, but you're holding him responsible for knowing even though he doesn't.

And she's like, and I don't want to give him that because he doesn't even know the one tenth of what I actually do to keep the shit running, Like he does not know. And I was like, but babe, who's fault is that he doesn't know? Because you're not telling him, but you're holding him responsible for knowing even though he doesn't.

But you will say, you get into this area of like schoolkeeping when you're doing that, when you're like, well you did this and I did this, and I feel like that is just you know, when you get to that point in a relationship when we're talking about resentment, like schoolkeeping is such a dangerous thing to do to your pot.

But you will say, you get into this area of like schoolkeeping when you're doing that, when you're like, well you did this and I did this, and I feel like that is just you know, when you get to that point in a relationship when we're talking about resentment, like schoolkeeping is such a dangerous thing to do to your pot.

The I'm going to disagree, and I'm going ta you why. I agree that bean counting, scorekeeping bean county is not the way to go. But if you have a very lopsided relationship right now, where you're doing all the emotional labor, where you do all the cooking, all the kids, all the stuff, and have a career, there has to be a come to Jesus like, Okay, we need to rejigger this thing because it's not working. Right that moment of that lady being like there's four thousand things on my list and there's twenty on his list, I'm like, okay, Well, in your seven hour family meeting, I guess you can offload some of the stuff on your list or maybe see if you guys can that be Can we pay someone to do some of those things or whatever. But there has to be more fairness in a relationship. I'm not saying it has to be perfectly equitable. Definitely, you're going to do things better than your partner. Your partner's going to do things better than you, same for me. Right, we all have our skill sets. So it isn't like I planned the vacation this time, you do it next time. It won't be that right because I would never let my husband plan vacation because he would just buy the airfare. He would just be like, oh, the airfare to LA was forty five hundred dollars, is that okay?

The I'm going to disagree, and I'm going ta you why. I agree that bean counting, scorekeeping bean county is not the way to go. But if you have a very lopsided relationship right now, where you're doing all the emotional labor, where you do all the cooking, all the kids, all the stuff, and have a career, there has to be a come to Jesus like, Okay, we need to rejigger this thing because it's not working. Right that moment of that lady being like there's four thousand things on my list and there's twenty on his list, I'm like, okay, Well, in your seven hour family meeting, I guess you can offload some of the stuff on your list or maybe see if you guys can that be Can we pay someone to do some of those things or whatever. But there has to be more fairness in a relationship. I'm not saying it has to be perfectly equitable. Definitely, you're going to do things better than your partner. Your partner's going to do things better than you, same for me. Right, we all have our skill sets. So it isn't like I planned the vacation this time, you do it next time. It won't be that right because I would never let my husband plan vacation because he would just buy the airfare. He would just be like, oh, the airfare to LA was forty five hundred dollars, is that okay?

Like No, my pounce would take it for like the wrong year.

Like No, my pounce would take it for like the wrong year.

I would never let him touch it.

I would never let him touch it.

Right. So we know that, But then there are things that they do better as well. And I think that we have to come together in our unions and get real. If we set it up as if it were nineteen fifty but it's twenty twenty four, we might need to revisit and recalibrate how we're going to be doing these things. And yeah, people who are not going to love it sometimes, you know.

Right. So we know that, But then there are things that they do better as well. And I think that we have to come together in our unions and get real. If we set it up as if it were nineteen fifty but it's twenty twenty four, we might need to revisit and recalibrate how we're going to be doing these things. And yeah, people who are not going to love it sometimes, you know.

Yeah, But that even that, I would be devastated if my partner came to me and was like, sit your ass down, I've blocked out our work day seven hours that we're going to go through all the shit, I'd be devastated.

Yeah, But that even that, I would be devastated if my partner came to me and was like, sit your ass down, I've blocked out our work day seven hours that we're going to go through all the shit, I'd be devastated.

I would hope that we could get to a place where.

I would hope that we could get to a place where.

You are letting each other know constantly, the constant communication but I'm just as guilty of doing the opposite. I'm just just as guilty as them saying what's wrong and we being like nothing, don't worry about it.

You are letting each other know constantly, the constant communication but I'm just as guilty of doing the opposite. I'm just just as guilty as them saying what's wrong and we being like nothing, don't worry about it.

And then that's what you said.

And then that's what you said.

Before, that slow creep of resentment that builds up, and then one day it's just there.

Before, that slow creep of resentment that builds up, and then one day it's just there.

It's so sneaking you don't see it.

It's so sneaking you don't see it.

I'd love to know what the effect is if you're an HFC, then effect on your children or those that you're bringing up, because I imagine that if there's a level of control and not letting them do anything, you're going to put a level of independence on those children.

I'd love to know what the effect is if you're an HFC, then effect on your children or those that you're bringing up, because I imagine that if there's a level of control and not letting them do anything, you're going to put a level of independence on those children.

Sorry, black dependence independence.

Sorry, black dependence independence.

I know what you meant.

I know what you meant.

Yeah, yeah, my brain I was trying to get out too.

Yeah, yeah, my brain I was trying to get out too.

I got you. This is a really important reason why we want to stop the cycle. Right. Kids are like a perfect reason to do it better than perhaps our parents did it. What happens when we overfunction for children is that we are sending them a message. They're coming to us and saying, mom, I'm I need help, can't do this, I don't know how to do it, and you saying you're right, you can't. I agree with you. You think you're a loser. Me too, So we're all on the same page that you're a loser and that mommy has to.

I got you. This is a really important reason why we want to stop the cycle. Right. Kids are like a perfect reason to do it better than perhaps our parents did it. What happens when we overfunction for children is that we are sending them a message. They're coming to us and saying, mom, I'm I need help, can't do this, I don't know how to do it, and you saying you're right, you can't. I agree with you. You think you're a loser. Me too, So we're all on the same page that you're a loser and that mommy has to.

Say right shoelaces.

Say right shoelaces.

Yeah, Now, I mean we want it to be age appropriate.

Yeah, Now, I mean we want it to be age appropriate.

Right, I'm going to say that's my three year old. The next time she wants a wife or as.

Right, I'm going to say that's my three year old. The next time she wants a wife or as.

I'll be like, you do it, you can do it, yea three.

I'll be like, you do it, you can do it, yea three.

Age appropriate. But what we want to teach kids is deductive reason and critical thinking. Right, So the first thing a kid comes to you and is like, I had a terrible day. This horrible thing happened. You know, you say what happened? They tell you this horrible thing, and then I got so mad, I like kicked the person in the leg or whatever they said. Instead of you being like, well, now you need to go and apologize, telling them what to do or solving their problem, the first step, right, the first step on the bus has to always be, no matter who you're talking to. Okay, before we get into it, what do you think you should do? Even asking little kids what they think they should do is okay, we're not going to let them do it. If they're like, I think I should get a gun and shoot Bobby, we're obviously not going to let them do that, but we're teaching them to think, think through consequences, trust their gut. Whenever I'm talking to a little kid and they're wanting me to fix whatever it is, I'll say, listen, I know your gut instinct is good, So tell me what do you think you should do. We'll figure it out together. Like I'm not going to abandon the kid, but we can teach children to problem solve instead of being so afraid of them making mistakes and so afraid for them. We treat kids nowadays a lot like they're super fragile and they're super not.

Age appropriate. But what we want to teach kids is deductive reason and critical thinking. Right, So the first thing a kid comes to you and is like, I had a terrible day. This horrible thing happened. You know, you say what happened? They tell you this horrible thing, and then I got so mad, I like kicked the person in the leg or whatever they said. Instead of you being like, well, now you need to go and apologize, telling them what to do or solving their problem, the first step, right, the first step on the bus has to always be, no matter who you're talking to. Okay, before we get into it, what do you think you should do? Even asking little kids what they think they should do is okay, we're not going to let them do it. If they're like, I think I should get a gun and shoot Bobby, we're obviously not going to let them do that, but we're teaching them to think, think through consequences, trust their gut. Whenever I'm talking to a little kid and they're wanting me to fix whatever it is, I'll say, listen, I know your gut instinct is good, So tell me what do you think you should do. We'll figure it out together. Like I'm not going to abandon the kid, but we can teach children to problem solve instead of being so afraid of them making mistakes and so afraid for them. We treat kids nowadays a lot like they're super fragile and they're super not.

I have a question around, like where this comes from.

I have a question around, like where this comes from.

We don't just show up in the world and be like, oh, I'm high functioning codependent all of a sudden this just happened to me. What are the I guess, the predetermining factors that would make someone high functioning codependent.

We don't just show up in the world and be like, oh, I'm high functioning codependent all of a sudden this just happened to me. What are the I guess, the predetermining factors that would make someone high functioning codependent.

I mean, just look at the way we're raised. It all I hate to say it, but it all goes back to seeing the crime, which is the family of origin and childhood, and most of us were raised to kind of be good girls. Where's my happy girl? Turn that friend around? If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all, right, So we're taught to suppress our feelings if those feelings will not be liked by other people. We're taught to be hopeful the most thing. When I was being raised, being perceived as being nice was pretty much more important than anything else. Be nice, be a good girl. So we're really coming into this at a disadvantage because we have to learn to prioritize how we feel, what we want, what we think, and how we feel. And in this process of getting into recovery, you have to understand that those things are not just important what you think, what you want, and how you feel. It has to be literally the most important thing to you, more important than what anybody else wants, thinks, or feels. Now that's not to say we don't compromise in our relationships. Of course we do. This is how we have relationships. But for most people, we were taught to not prioritize what we think, what we want, and how we feel. And we have to so we're unlearning a lot of home training. And then you have personality traits too. Some of us are just more people pleaser by nature as well. If you're an extrovert, if you're very positive, if you like to help, if you were a helper in your family system. Right, So there's all these different experiences we may have, and then we all have our unique relational blueprint, which is what you saw how did the adults relate? Like an HFC blueprint is really a relational blueprint what we learned about how you're supposed to be in relationships. So if you had a people pleasing mom, if you had a mom who did all the things for all the people and nobody ever thanked her, you know you came by it naturally.

I mean, just look at the way we're raised. It all I hate to say it, but it all goes back to seeing the crime, which is the family of origin and childhood, and most of us were raised to kind of be good girls. Where's my happy girl? Turn that friend around? If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all, right, So we're taught to suppress our feelings if those feelings will not be liked by other people. We're taught to be hopeful the most thing. When I was being raised, being perceived as being nice was pretty much more important than anything else. Be nice, be a good girl. So we're really coming into this at a disadvantage because we have to learn to prioritize how we feel, what we want, what we think, and how we feel. And in this process of getting into recovery, you have to understand that those things are not just important what you think, what you want, and how you feel. It has to be literally the most important thing to you, more important than what anybody else wants, thinks, or feels. Now that's not to say we don't compromise in our relationships. Of course we do. This is how we have relationships. But for most people, we were taught to not prioritize what we think, what we want, and how we feel. And we have to so we're unlearning a lot of home training. And then you have personality traits too. Some of us are just more people pleaser by nature as well. If you're an extrovert, if you're very positive, if you like to help, if you were a helper in your family system. Right, So there's all these different experiences we may have, and then we all have our unique relational blueprint, which is what you saw how did the adults relate? Like an HFC blueprint is really a relational blueprint what we learned about how you're supposed to be in relationships. So if you had a people pleasing mom, if you had a mom who did all the things for all the people and nobody ever thanked her, you know you came by it naturally.

Do people who who have characteristics or can see themselves as high functioning codependents? Are they more inclined to get into relationships that do not serve them and are negative and bad way relationship so toxic relationships which we like to throw around. Or is it quite common that they will get into a great relationship but then still have high functioning attributes in that relationship.

Do people who who have characteristics or can see themselves as high functioning codependents? Are they more inclined to get into relationships that do not serve them and are negative and bad way relationship so toxic relationships which we like to throw around. Or is it quite common that they will get into a great relationship but then still have high functioning attributes in that relationship.

Both are true, so I can't say one is more common, but I have to say high functioning codependence getting involved in unhealthy relationships. So the overfunctioning and underfunctioning like being an HFC and getting in relationship with a narcissist. I mean, I did devote an entire chapter to that in this book, because the truth is, it is common and it makes sense if you're an HFC, right, you have a narcissist whose vibe is is all about me, you have an HFC whose vibe is great, it's all about you. I want you to be happy. I want you to feel fulfilled. I want you to think I'm the best, and that sex is the best, and that we're having so much fun together and taking care of someone whose expectation is that you will. It's like a perfectly messed up fit. It's like that cracked pot find the perfectly cracked lid, and it is like a match made in heaven. I mean, obviously, until it's in. How hell breaks loose?

Both are true, so I can't say one is more common, but I have to say high functioning codependence getting involved in unhealthy relationships. So the overfunctioning and underfunctioning like being an HFC and getting in relationship with a narcissist. I mean, I did devote an entire chapter to that in this book, because the truth is, it is common and it makes sense if you're an HFC, right, you have a narcissist whose vibe is is all about me, you have an HFC whose vibe is great, it's all about you. I want you to be happy. I want you to feel fulfilled. I want you to think I'm the best, and that sex is the best, and that we're having so much fun together and taking care of someone whose expectation is that you will. It's like a perfectly messed up fit. It's like that cracked pot find the perfectly cracked lid, and it is like a match made in heaven. I mean, obviously, until it's in. How hell breaks loose?

So is HFC or just codependency linked to say anxious attachment style?

So is HFC or just codependency linked to say anxious attachment style?

Honestly, I feel like any attachment style could be HFC. Now other people might disagree, but I identify myself as being pretty securely attached. I had a very present and responsive mother. I have the same friends I've had since Nixon was in office. And you probably don't even know who Nixon is thank you. You know what I mean. I've been with my husband twenty seven years, Like my ability to have long term relationships is there, and yet I was the most HFC of all the HFCs, And so what is it about? Part of it was my place in the family. I was the hero child. It was an alcoholic system, so I was the one who did good, so the whole family could agree. If nothing else, everyone agreed I was amazing, you know what I mean. But none of those things free. So family systems roll in your family system. Attachment style certainly can play a part, But I got to say, I don't think any attachment style is free from potentially being an HFC.

Honestly, I feel like any attachment style could be HFC. Now other people might disagree, but I identify myself as being pretty securely attached. I had a very present and responsive mother. I have the same friends I've had since Nixon was in office. And you probably don't even know who Nixon is thank you. You know what I mean. I've been with my husband twenty seven years, Like my ability to have long term relationships is there, and yet I was the most HFC of all the HFCs, And so what is it about? Part of it was my place in the family. I was the hero child. It was an alcoholic system, so I was the one who did good, so the whole family could agree. If nothing else, everyone agreed I was amazing, you know what I mean. But none of those things free. So family systems roll in your family system. Attachment style certainly can play a part, But I got to say, I don't think any attachment style is free from potentially being an HFC.

When did you realize yourself?

When did you realize yourself?

Well, I mean when you've done all the study, you've written the books, literally, when was it that you were like, oh, this is me, I'm talking about myself.

Well, I mean when you've done all the study, you've written the books, literally, when was it that you were like, oh, this is me, I'm talking about myself.

You know. It's interesting In the book, I tell the story and we might have talked about this, so I don't need to rehash. But there was a very painful experience with one of my sisters being in a terrible relationship with an abusive guy who was doing crack and she was drinking and they lived in a house without running water and electricity. This is one of my older sisters who like had a history of like bad dating life, and she was in this domestic horrendous domestic situation, which for an HFC means that every day of my life was a five alarm fire of like how can I get her out? What must I do? Like everything is possible. Also, when you're inn HFC, you're really optimistic that if you just keep at it, you'll figure some shit out, whatever it is, you know. Yeah, So anyway, I was crying to my therapist and this is my I was in my late twenties then, and I was saying, Bev, I've done everything, I've done everything I can. What am I going to do? I was talking about my sister and she said, Terry, let me ask you something. What makes you think you know what your sister needs to learn in this lifetime and how she needs to learn it? And I was like, I don't know, but I think we can agree she doesn't need to do it with a crackhead in the woods without running in water. I mean, is that Can we agree with that? And she said, honestly, Tera, I can't agree because I don't know what and how your sister needs to learn what she needs to learn in this life. And so I'm not God, and neither are you. And she said, but do you know what's going on for you? And I was like, obviously no, So help what is going on for me? Because I'm confused? And she said, You've worked really hard to create a pretty harmonious life and your sister's domestic dumpster fire is really messing with your piece and you really want your pain to end. And I was like, you are not lying, Bev. That is fucking true.

You know. It's interesting In the book, I tell the story and we might have talked about this, so I don't need to rehash. But there was a very painful experience with one of my sisters being in a terrible relationship with an abusive guy who was doing crack and she was drinking and they lived in a house without running water and electricity. This is one of my older sisters who like had a history of like bad dating life, and she was in this domestic horrendous domestic situation, which for an HFC means that every day of my life was a five alarm fire of like how can I get her out? What must I do? Like everything is possible. Also, when you're inn HFC, you're really optimistic that if you just keep at it, you'll figure some shit out, whatever it is, you know. Yeah, So anyway, I was crying to my therapist and this is my I was in my late twenties then, and I was saying, Bev, I've done everything, I've done everything I can. What am I going to do? I was talking about my sister and she said, Terry, let me ask you something. What makes you think you know what your sister needs to learn in this lifetime and how she needs to learn it? And I was like, I don't know, but I think we can agree she doesn't need to do it with a crackhead in the woods without running in water. I mean, is that Can we agree with that? And she said, honestly, Tera, I can't agree because I don't know what and how your sister needs to learn what she needs to learn in this life. And so I'm not God, and neither are you. And she said, but do you know what's going on for you? And I was like, obviously no, So help what is going on for me? Because I'm confused? And she said, You've worked really hard to create a pretty harmonious life and your sister's domestic dumpster fire is really messing with your piece and you really want your pain to end. And I was like, you are not lying, Bev. That is fucking true.

But can't both things be true at the same time. Can't you want your pain to end? And also you don't want your sister to be with a crackhead in the woods with no running water.

But can't both things be true at the same time. Can't you want your pain to end? And also you don't want your sister to be with a crackhead in the woods with no running water.

Correct, that's true, But the way that I was going about it, I was trampling on my sister's sovereignty, her right to make her own decisions even if they suck. People have a right to succeed or fail, to thrive or flail without me being like this is too stressful for me. You need to get out of there now because I can't tolerate it. So what I did was this is when I started. I was introduced to boundaries, and she was like, and you don't need to talk to her and let her tell you about this abusive guy, Like, you literally don't need to. You need to protect your tender heart around this situation. So I drew a boundary talk to my sister, said, hey, I love you, and I'm going to step back if you ever want to get out, though I will always be your person. And within nine months we talked a couple of times. You know, it wasn't like I didn't cut her off or anything, but I wasn't entertained this conversation because you know, we'd get off the phone after she's telling me the most horrible shit in the world, and she's like, I always feel so much better after talking to you. And I'm like, because you have a lot of toxic waste sight, you know.

Correct, that's true, But the way that I was going about it, I was trampling on my sister's sovereignty, her right to make her own decisions even if they suck. People have a right to succeed or fail, to thrive or flail without me being like this is too stressful for me. You need to get out of there now because I can't tolerate it. So what I did was this is when I started. I was introduced to boundaries, and she was like, and you don't need to talk to her and let her tell you about this abusive guy, Like, you literally don't need to. You need to protect your tender heart around this situation. So I drew a boundary talk to my sister, said, hey, I love you, and I'm going to step back if you ever want to get out, though I will always be your person. And within nine months we talked a couple of times. You know, it wasn't like I didn't cut her off or anything, but I wasn't entertained this conversation because you know, we'd get off the phone after she's telling me the most horrible shit in the world, and she's like, I always feel so much better after talking to you. And I'm like, because you have a lot of toxic waste sight, you know.

I think it's codependence.

I think it's codependence.

We can do this, but fixing problems, we're keeping things going, and actually we're not helping the problem. We're actually just enabling the behavior to continue.

We can do this, but fixing problems, we're keeping things going, and actually we're not helping the problem. We're actually just enabling the behavior to continue.

Yes, we're literally robbing the person of the experience that will get them to the place in themselves.

Yes, we're literally robbing the person of the experience that will get them to the place in themselves.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So with my sister, the ps on the story was nine months later, she called and was like, hey, are you still my person? I definitely am ready now, and I was like putting on my sneakers, jumped in my car, picked her up, She went back to school, she got sober. Like the most important ps is that instead of Terry and her cape saving her older sister, my sister got to be the hero of her own friggin story, got that self esteem, all respect from me to her, but also building a life that she loves. Not because I made that possible for her, because I paid for it, because I kicked him out, or I called the police or whatever, because I tolerated the way it made me feel, which was horrible, until she got ready, and then I am appropriately helping her, right me going to get her, helping her get back on her feet. That's appropriate, right me deciding when and how she should leave, and I was going to make it happen. That's not appropriate. That was me overstepping it for my own pain.

So with my sister, the ps on the story was nine months later, she called and was like, hey, are you still my person? I definitely am ready now, and I was like putting on my sneakers, jumped in my car, picked her up, She went back to school, she got sober. Like the most important ps is that instead of Terry and her cape saving her older sister, my sister got to be the hero of her own friggin story, got that self esteem, all respect from me to her, but also building a life that she loves. Not because I made that possible for her, because I paid for it, because I kicked him out, or I called the police or whatever, because I tolerated the way it made me feel, which was horrible, until she got ready, and then I am appropriately helping her, right me going to get her, helping her get back on her feet. That's appropriate, right me deciding when and how she should leave, and I was going to make it happen. That's not appropriate. That was me overstepping it for my own pain.

You know, can you tell us what you mean by the terminology? Let them you speak about this idea, let them what does that mean to you? And how is that something that we should be implementing if we do kind of recognize, okay, we are hfc's.

You know, can you tell us what you mean by the terminology? Let them you speak about this idea, let them what does that mean to you? And how is that something that we should be implementing if we do kind of recognize, okay, we are hfc's.

Yeah, it's funny. There's a couple of things I can give you to do in the moment that's helpful. And that's actually that's a Mel Robbins thing that I actually put in the book and obviously credit her, where she says when people are about to do something that you know is like whack, and they shouldn't do it, and you want to tell them not to do it, or you want to give advice, you want to control something, or you want to tell someone the best way that they should drive down wherever it is, that instead of saying it in your mind, just think, let them, let them live, let them go the way they want to go, let them do what they're going to do. And even though it's an illusion, why I think it's funny and why I mentioned it is that, of course it's an illusion because you're not actually letting them or not letting them. But what it signals to your central nervous system is that you can relax, like you're telling yourself in my vernacular, that's not my side of the street, right, that's for them to discover or that's for them to learn. So again, you know, Brett, I almost feel like you've got, there's a black or white thinking that you have. That it almost means that what I'm saying perhaps is like just everyone every man for himself, Like you're on your own, I'm just big dice. Why are you judging me? But what I say is that there's a place between. And that's what we're talking about when we say let them, We are allowing people to make their own decisions because they do have a right to make mistakes the same way we do. And how I never would have learned.

Yeah, it's funny. There's a couple of things I can give you to do in the moment that's helpful. And that's actually that's a Mel Robbins thing that I actually put in the book and obviously credit her, where she says when people are about to do something that you know is like whack, and they shouldn't do it, and you want to tell them not to do it, or you want to give advice, you want to control something, or you want to tell someone the best way that they should drive down wherever it is, that instead of saying it in your mind, just think, let them, let them live, let them go the way they want to go, let them do what they're going to do. And even though it's an illusion, why I think it's funny and why I mentioned it is that, of course it's an illusion because you're not actually letting them or not letting them. But what it signals to your central nervous system is that you can relax, like you're telling yourself in my vernacular, that's not my side of the street, right, that's for them to discover or that's for them to learn. So again, you know, Brett, I almost feel like you've got, there's a black or white thinking that you have. That it almost means that what I'm saying perhaps is like just everyone every man for himself, Like you're on your own, I'm just big dice. Why are you judging me? But what I say is that there's a place between. And that's what we're talking about when we say let them, We are allowing people to make their own decisions because they do have a right to make mistakes the same way we do. And how I never would have learned.

Why do I make mistakes? Terry? Please?

Why do I make mistakes? Terry? Please?

Yeah, of course you don't.

Yeah, of course you don't.

Obviously not great obviously.

Obviously not great obviously.

I mean Laura does.

I mean Laura does.

That's different though I carry them for the boy of the bos don't worry.

That's different though I carry them for the boy of the bos don't worry.

What okay?

What okay?

But what about in the instance where this whole idea of letting them, let them, when the decision that they're making genuinely directly impacts your life and makes your life hot.

But what about in the instance where this whole idea of letting them, let them, when the decision that they're making genuinely directly impacts your life and makes your life hot.

When we're talking about let them, I'm talking about you have a kid who's going to change their major now they want to become a chef, and you're like, that's a horrible life. I really don't think he's gonna like it. He's not even a good cook, I don't even know what the hell he's talking about. Instead of all of that, you say to yourself, let him. Yeah, he'll find it out, maybe up, maybe I'm wrong.

When we're talking about let them, I'm talking about you have a kid who's going to change their major now they want to become a chef, and you're like, that's a horrible life. I really don't think he's gonna like it. He's not even a good cook, I don't even know what the hell he's talking about. Instead of all of that, you say to yourself, let him. Yeah, he'll find it out, maybe up, maybe I'm wrong.

He'll get fined, he'll be fine.

He'll get fined, he'll be fine.

Exactly, he'll discover it on his own. When you're talking about we have a family, we are married, right. My husband came to me many years ago and was like, had this opportunity to go into a war zone too. He's an artist and he does on the spot drawing, and he's incredibly talented. He's very successful. And I did let him, but it was appropriate that he came to me to say, how do you feel about me going to Iraq to an active war zone? I was like, I mean terrible, but I'm not going to stop you because it's your dream. And then I don't want you to resent me, so go go, just don't die, please, which he did not. So he's gone more than once and he came back. If I had had children, young children, my kids are grown, I've got grand because at this point I do not think I don't think he would have asked me, but be if he did, I do not think I would have been like, just let him. You got to live your life. No, I don't think so. If I have a six month old, yeah, you know when you can do that later when kids are grown. But we have decided together to have these children. Let's dissect this decision that you're going to make because you are not a single man about town, buddy, you are committed to me for life, or so he said, and we have kids. We're a kid, and that is is something to consider. It does matter if it's going to burden you, you may still choose to support him in it. But the thing is it can't be his decision. This is a decision we make together. I wouldn't take a job that was going to suddenly put me on the road, you know, three weeks a month when we have a puppy or we have animals to take care of and assume that my husband was going to be like, that's cool, no problem, I'll let you live your life. You know, when we're in unions, this is where negotiation comes in. This is not across the board when we say let them. Is when we are going across getting from our side of the street to someone else's side of the street, and we can't wait to tell them what we really think they should do, and maybe we don't need to do that.

Exactly, he'll discover it on his own. When you're talking about we have a family, we are married, right. My husband came to me many years ago and was like, had this opportunity to go into a war zone too. He's an artist and he does on the spot drawing, and he's incredibly talented. He's very successful. And I did let him, but it was appropriate that he came to me to say, how do you feel about me going to Iraq to an active war zone? I was like, I mean terrible, but I'm not going to stop you because it's your dream. And then I don't want you to resent me, so go go, just don't die, please, which he did not. So he's gone more than once and he came back. If I had had children, young children, my kids are grown, I've got grand because at this point I do not think I don't think he would have asked me, but be if he did, I do not think I would have been like, just let him. You got to live your life. No, I don't think so. If I have a six month old, yeah, you know when you can do that later when kids are grown. But we have decided together to have these children. Let's dissect this decision that you're going to make because you are not a single man about town, buddy, you are committed to me for life, or so he said, and we have kids. We're a kid, and that is is something to consider. It does matter if it's going to burden you, you may still choose to support him in it. But the thing is it can't be his decision. This is a decision we make together. I wouldn't take a job that was going to suddenly put me on the road, you know, three weeks a month when we have a puppy or we have animals to take care of and assume that my husband was going to be like, that's cool, no problem, I'll let you live your life. You know, when we're in unions, this is where negotiation comes in. This is not across the board when we say let them. Is when we are going across getting from our side of the street to someone else's side of the street, and we can't wait to tell them what we really think they should do, and maybe we don't need to do that.

When we talk about codependency, the antithesis is I'm assuming hyper independence. Is that a negative thing? Or is that what we're striving to be. I feel like if I was to actually put myself in a category, I would probably say I am hyping in. But then some of the traits that you were saying about that can also look like codependency. I was like, oh, maybe maybe I'm not just hyper independent. Maybe some of those parts are also codependent.