Look man, oh I see you? Why why? And look over there? How is that culture? Yes? Goodness dust cultures is calling and really good moods because you know what, it's the weather. It's the weather on both coasts at the moment. We're recording this on Sunday, the twenty sixth of March. Yeah, and it's nice in New York, it's nice in La. I don't know what it's like in our guests city. Right now, we'll have him China. How are things in Glouckama? Glauckama? Do you understand what that is a reference to? Oh no, I don't. I hate it when this happens. It's from the Broadway musical Finnian's Rainbow, and there's a song called how are things in Glaucama? Now? Why would you say that? Well, just because it's sort of now, why would you say that? Uh not? Now, why would you say that? I don't know. I was having fun. I'm sorry, I said were. I said we were in good moods and sort of pattering the ball back and forth, you know, like you do with balls. And I sort of just sent to goat something and you sort of shamed me. Queen. No, Queen, I didn't mean to you know. I was thinking of you this morning. I woke up. I want were I miss my friend Matt Roger. You said that to yourself. I said that out loud to no one. Oh. You sort of sent me a photo last nighte of you and the girls at iconic New York party event course Meat Disco, and I was a little bit jealous, but not super jealous because I am avoiding those spaces because I have a new rule right now, which is no new gay men. I don't trust them. I don't want to talk to them. If you have to introduce yourself to me, keep it moving. But I'm happy that you wanted to go to that event. I needed to because I was so hermetic in London for two weeks. I was like losing my mind. I was like, I gotta go out totally. I have to like release this and guess what it worked? Did you twirl? We twirled and guess what we did. We went to like the side room where it was like the energy was not quite dark room, but it was like much hornier, but it was it was the Hens. It was me, Josh, Aaron Patrick Rogers, Matt Whittaker. We all went to this back room and we just screamed at and it clucked in a full conversation, and then the bit was dark room more like red table talk that we were chatting, we were healing, and that doesn't happen. And who says that the dark room can't become the red table? And that's a royal culture number forty eight? Who says the dark room can't become the red table? Sometimes all the girls in the dark room, they need the red table the most, Like we need to really come to the red table sometimes when we're in the dark room. Absolutely, and horse me disco more like chicken feed dance off period period. Oh my god, Wow, I'm so happy. The energy is so good. Maybe it's the weather. Maybe you know what we just said before we got on here, Chatty Nicholas was right, let's go to the beach. Did Jenny Nicolas say let's go to the beach? No, but she did say that things were turning around and we need to get channing on the pod. I feel one thousand percent. Oh, I was just meditating to her like ten minutes ago, okay, that this is going to be a huge moment for the pod going for when we do have Channing as a guest. But I will say so there was that iconic week a couple weeks ago where she said, guys, this is not the week. Everyone stop what you're doing. Stop. And it really was a truly awful week. And then the next week I was still feeling in the duldrums, really really bad. Yet Channing came on and she was like, I know, but you have to use today because I believe it was the equinox. And she was like, you have to use today to put projects in motion and set your intention and put energy into things that you want to like see through. And I did that, and things are happening. Things are happening. And our guests in his book The Best Strangers in the World says he doesn't believe in any of this bullshit, which I was him once. So was I on the record on this podcast. I was like, I don't understand this stuff. I've read too many Carl Seagan books to buy into this same listen. Channy is someone if any readers Katie's publicists out there are on that level, Channy is someone who like puts it in very understandable, approachable terms. It's not even two I would say, like misstick. It's just very like straightforward and it's usually just about like reflecting and writing down your intentions, like pretty like full stop healthy things. Yes, you described it to me as she's a scientist. And when you said to me she's a scientist, I said, well, I'm on board. There you go. I would challenge anyone, including our guests, to sort of grapple with this statement. Okay, I'm just gonna say this right now, and just know this changed everything for me. Our bodies are over seventy five percent water. How can you expect that we would not be affected by the moons the tides? Oh my god, did she say that? No, she didn't say that, but someone did who I don't remember, but whoever they were change my life because I went from being'm like I don't believe in that too someone saying that to me, and then I was like, not only do I believe in it, but I'm making it a large part of my personality going forward. And you as a water sign that's on period, as a waterside that's actually on aquatic period, aquatic period. We mentioned our guests in passing, Yes we did, And I'm gonna do RuPaul right now and my new thing is I'm saying how I meet people like RuPaul would say it. I met our guest in Mexico City in two twenty one. It was New Year's I was with my sister Bowen Yang, and we connected and shopped together the next day after a night o'le on the talent at the store, boyfriend's shirt and I had active COVID nineteen. And I'm telling you I had active COVID nineteen. I did not know about it. And we shopped in a small store together and I immediately texted our guests. I said, do you have the coronavirus nineteen? And he said no. So not only is this person an author, a host of all things considered the legendary MPR host, I mean just like man myth legend performer. I mean, have you heard of Pink Martini. I mean like it's just like there's there's so much underneath the gorgeous visage of this man. And also no, he is very much Bella Ramsey and the last of us, and that he needs his brain removed and needs to be studied because he is COVID immune. Yes, it will cure humanity if they study his brain. This man is the vaccine. This man is the vaccine. Can I just say, you know who listens to all things considered? Every day in the car? My mother many. I was gonna say, your mother. I was gonna say this because I'm sure our guest gets like, oh, my parents love you, and like, certainly I put on NPR doing the dishes in the bathroom, doing the routine. This man is in my ear. But for my mother to like choose to listen to an English language program, wow, huge deal, huge deal. You cannot get her to watch anything or listen to anything that is not in Mandarin Chinese like, except when it is undeniably essential. And that is a big deal. Two words, undeniably dundant. It's a front runner for title of app undeniably essential. The new book is the best Strangers in the World. It is quite a read. Quite read a bowl. I read this. I was like, I'm gonna eat like five days three that I'm a celeb reader. I read this in three Yeah. Absolutely, we loved it. Beautiful stories from a beautiful life well lived. I've also been sent an iconic three copies of it from PR, and I want to say thank you because I absolutely love having a gift to give because I can't think of a better gift to give then the book by our guest. And this is a moment in time. I know readers publishist katies who identify as hashtag actually smart are absolutely over the moon today to welcome into our ears our guests. All right, oh my god, you guys, you have given me so much over the year's entertainment, fashion, advice, fashion. Last the only thing you have not given me is COVID nineteen truly, and let me tell you, I was a just way of COVID, Like it was like pee peak contagion. If only you had spit in my drink. I know, I thought about it. That was a fun night and that was my last night there. We all went out. That was very fun. That was the night that I'm in R two. Yeah, on that rooftop bar. And you know what was so meaningful to me was seeing over the course of the year that followed all of the flowers that bloomed for both of you from Fire Island too. I love that for you to wick it. I mean, it's been so glorious. This in a way feels like a full circle moment where we're able to reconvene and appreciate the amazing harvest you have both read that is too nice, that it's so nice. I don't know what to say. But this, this man is here's the thing. He's a host in all ways. Like here, he is making us, fluffing us on our own podcast, obviously, and iconic coast in his own right. And I'll say, I've had dinner at the man's home in Washington, d C. The district of Columbia. As many people say, this man can cook. He can cook. It's unbelievable. Secret ingredient is love. I just pour a lot of love into it. There is a culture out there of from my garden. There is a from my garden culture there people who get to say the words from my garden, my garden, blessed bunch. I know that I'm a cliche, but yeah, no, I garden. I grow vegetables, and I'm gonna just come clean about this. I have a garden coach. I have this amazing urban farmer who every two weeks comes over and tells me how not to kill all the organic vegetables I'm growing. And I'm not ashamed to admit that they are from this incredible, small, local queer women owned company called Love and Carrots. And it's the best decision that I made. And them you have a trainer, that's I have. I have an organic vegetable trainer. I'm not ashamed to admit it. I have professional help. Now that's perfect. At this point, I need a task rabbit for everything. Not that I actually hire them, but it's someone to tell me. But it's like, at a certain point, I'm just like helpless, literally, and like all I can do is get help. You cannot be expected to be good at literally everything. You cannot be expected to be an expert at everything. And if you have an opportunity to bring in somebody to share their gifts and talents with you and economically support them at the same time, it's a win win win. There you go. That's my feeling about the thing. This is pro test rabbit culture. And I've always been very pro test rabbit because this is pro gig economy. This is pro gig economy. It's called just pro gig economy. Yes, we support it, we sup. I just say, if Bowen, if you want to figure out how to do all these things yourself, just have the task rabbit come over and then watch intently. Right, Yeah, it's the whole Give a person a fish, Teach a person a persing. Thank you Jesus, teach a person a fish. Watch that motherfucker fish. Yeah, film the person fishing. Kill the person fishing. You said kill. Where I'm at? Took a turn? How is this book tour? How are you doing? Yeah? It is so incredible. I keep waiting for the experience of signing books to become just a repetitive hand cramp activity, but every time I'm doing it, I feel just in sort of shock that these words that I wrote in private on my laptop, wondering if anybody would ever want to read them or have the opportunity to read them, are now going out into the world and being consumed by people. And as I meet people, like, it's just, you know, radio is this very strange medium where you might reach an enormous audience, as you know with your podcast, but you don't often have the opportunity to engage with them because they're listening in their car or their kitchen or wherever, and you may never meet them. And now I'm like actually going from city to city and meeting people who are telling me that they listen to what I have to say and they're reading the words that I wrote, and it's this really meaningful experience. So it's a like ambitious eleven city tour with a crazy itinerary. But I'm so thrilled to be doing it. Like originally I was supposed to be New York, Philly, Boston, DC, which makes sense, and then Dallas was like, oh, we want you to come visit, and I had one extra day, so I went Philly, Dallas, Boston and met some amazing people in Dallas and went two stepping at his country western gay bar called the Roundup Saloon. Like I'm having a great time. I'm really just loving this experience. Oh that's the best travel show. Travel show for Art Shapiro. I'm down. I mean, sign me up. You know what it's like to be on the road. You go out with Alan all the time. Yes, so Alan coming, And I made this show with your friend and mine and words. And as soon as I finished this book tour, we are all convening at the Cafe Carlisle in New York for a two week run. There we go, Oh amazing, It's the most fun thing I've ever done to just like bounce around the country with Alan and Henry and you know, like we do this show where we just make ourselves laugh and hopefully make the audience laugh too, and we sing songs together and we it's never quite the same at any two nights. And Alan, I mean you've both met him, you know, magic man like mentor friend, older brother figure, just the kindest, most generous, selfless, joyful person I've ever met. Yeah, I love the chapter that I said, what would you call gosh? I never know what to call them chapter and story essay either, Yeah, whatever, lovely chunk chunk the chunk where Because this is the dream, right when you're performing with someone else on stage, is that they put you at ease totally. You described like people asking you like, oh, it must be really intimidating to the performance someone of Alan's stature or whatever, and for you to say no, it's the opposite is huge. Well, because it's like if I jump, I know he'll catch me if our show is going off the tracks. He is so talented and experienced and gifted, he knows how to get it back on the tracks. So I just have to like get up there and have a good time with him. And in the moments when we do forget what we're supposed to do, it's brilliant, it's fun. It's a moment that the audience experiences that will never be quite that way again. I'm sure you've both had this experience where you're doing a scene or a show or something with somebody who has so much more experienced, talent and expertise than you that you just feel like, oh, they've got this. I can relax and I know that they can steer me where I need to go. But then you still get better in the process of just like totally yeah, yeah, you level up. Yep. It's that thing of when you feel comfortable enough and I'm ad nauseam about this on this podcast, I feel, but I do feel it's the best advice ever for a performer, which is when you feel comfortable enough to start really having fun, that's when the audience feels like they're having fun, like truly. I mean, I always credit it. It's an Amy Pohler's book, Yes please. She said. The hack is if you're having fun, they're having fun. And so even in a very intimidating atmosphere where you know you're performing at say the Hollywood Bowl as you have, or alongside Alan Cumming, where there is probably not for nothing but a ticket buyer who expects a certain degree of excellence. And I would imagine also someone that's coming that's like an NPR ticket buyer is not necessarily not going to be thinking about the value of their dollar. Oh but you know the great thing about that scenario is they come in with such low expectations for me that it's very easy for you. Like if I can carry a tune, they're like, oh, okay, you can carry a tune. Like allen coming one a Tony. People come in being like I expect a Tony Award went actually two Tony's to Tony Award winning performance. And then there's that other guy who's a journalist. And so then when I can like harmonize with Alan, people are like yeah, they're freaking yeah, it's amazing. And of course Henry Koperski, the third we call him the vegan meat in our sandwich. Um, we couldn't do it without him. He's just such a perfect foil. He's such a perfect sort of like you know, straight man in the corner, and we sort of toy with him throughout the show. I mean, listen, you're talking to someone who knows quite a bit about toying with toy with Henry's meat. Yeah, he alright, vegan meat. He really is. He's just he is a perfect foil. I mean, like it's just me up there talking and I'll reference him and he is like the other half of my act on stage, but he is in musically he's so able to get on the page right right there. I mean, he's truly a super So. The other day, as you know, Matt I said to Henry, look, I want to do a version of Celo Green's song fuck You, but I want to do it like in an earnest Josh Groban style with an a tomniment that's sort of like early Passaic and Paul and He's like got you and he did it, and it's like okay, here we go, and can we just say it is like an actual skill and talent to be like played off of in that sense right where it's like you're an accompanist or you're you're at the keys, you're on display, like you're on stage just as much as someone like as like either of you and you kind of have to like do something technical, which is to play the music, but also like roll with like the vibe of the of the show and like smile and like play along with like everything that's happening. It is a true talent that I think is undersung. Yeah. Absolutely. And when you look at the people who Henry has worked with, from those of us present here to like credit titleman, Yeah yeah, Larry Owens, Allen Cumming, like the list of people who he has made better than we actually are is long. I will say my favorite person he's ever played for when I released my special with Henry and I made together and I posted a separate like grid post like that was just all for him. The last picture I posted in like the Carousel was him and Vanessa Williams, because I'll just never forget when he got to play for Vanessa Williams and I thought that was so amazing And that was like early on what like before he was like, you know, literally pals with you and Alan Cumming and like it wasn't a surprise to see him in like whatever country, Like I never know where in the world he is anymore. It's one of the proudest times I ever. I mean, it's it's the proudest I've ever been when I hear what he's doing, and just because I knew him, truly when like my image of Henry is like him covered in sweat, like carrying a keyboard upstairs, you know what I mean, like going from thing to thing, like truly being like, you know, obviously deeply appreciated by the comedy community, but we were not able to appreciate him financial that we should have been. And now I take great pleasure in being able to give him these opportunities and like treat him the way that he deserves to be treated because we finally can. But I just remember, like back in the day, the Vanessa Williams thing. I was like, yeah, she's like a legit superstar. You got to play with her and the readers publicist Katie's No, Henry as like a character on this podcast, like recurring guest star, even though he's never actually made it appear. No, yes, he has. Oh my went early early days, ye early days. Yeah, he got his own episode. I came to it late. I have to go back into the archives, you do. That would be a really interesting listen because I think we were dating at the time, and I also think, oh, that was like right after Trump was elected though, and I remember he had gotten to meet Michelle Obama. Do you know this has hey? Oh wait, oh my gosh. My publicist Joseph Papa showed me this. I did not, and I had to just like last week, remember that, Henry, How did I not know that this was you? Of course I've seen this viral video with Jimmy Fallon, is what you're talking about, right, yeah, oh yes, yes, oh of course, Oh my god. That was that was huge. That was so special. It was such a horrible time because he had Trump had just been elected, and everyone was truly it was horrible. Henry and I were living together, I believe, still in South Slope, and he was gonna go do this bit on the Tonight Show where you had to tell a picture of Michelle Obama like what she meant to you. I feel like now, knowing what we know, like you know Michelle Obama. For some reason, he didn't, and she came out and gave him a hug and thanked him, and it was just you know, there's not a more beautiful from the inside out person than him, And to see him get that moment and receive that moment and like you know, he really felt like all of us in a way, like and I was just overflowing. And then we talked about that on the episode. That was a very emotional time. But yeah, talk about just like a superstar inside and out. That's Henry, I mean. And you can't if you're if you're someone that wants to book him for December, you can't have him. He's mine. That's Christmas for the rest of my life. What is it? First option? No, first position? Sorry, first He's in first position with me for all of Christmas. That's right. Speaking of the Obamas, Yes, it's a weird thing that I've clung onto from the book Ari is that you describe being an Air Force one And I don't know why this is sticking with me, but you're like describing eating I think spaghetti and meat balls, and I think you wrote the line the food on Air Force one tends to lean heavy. Yes, talk about that? What is that about? Well, even after Michelle Obama did her whole Let's Move Eat Healthy, Improving school lunches things, Oh, I loved Let's move well in the press corps in the back of Air Force One, which still for lunch should be sort of like a slab of meat loaf and mashed potatoes. Why is this happening when the first lady is encouraging consumption of fresh, healthy meals. And we speculated that it was because they wanted to keep us sedated and leak. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You're not going to ask the president tough questions if you're in a food coma, and so our theory never proven was that they were trying to keep us down by overfeeding us heavy meals on Air Force. Interesting. I think that that makes a lot of sense. It's just a theory. We need an investigate reporter to get on that. I mean, you were too tired to investigate it. I mean, look, this was the Obama administration, so things may have changed. For all I know, there's now an Air Force one salad bar, but at the time there was a real dearth of vege. That's so funny. Can I ask about Obama in person? So you describe him sort of coming up and like, you know, asking how's lunch, and like being very present and you being in his a minute media vicinity many times? Is it giving star quality? Yeah, in the sense, so like there's sort of paparazzi star quality and then there's I'm so comfortable in my own skin that I don't need to tell you that I'm a star star body. And he always he really gives off kind of bro vibes, basketball player vibes, like he always just seemed super chill, super laid back, very relaxidentt And actually, so my husband worked in the Obama White House. We overlapped for like one year, which was an interesting momentum. He was a White House lawyer, and so he kind of had a different perspective on the President from me, but he describes him the same way as just sort of like kind of broy chill. Yeah, that first time I met him, I remember, so I'm like sitting in my chair in Air Force one and he's standing literally right next to the arm rest taking questions, and I remember looking up at him and I saw razor bumps on his neck. Yeah, you talk about this in the book. It was like it was my first time on Air Force one and I had never been quite that close to the president, and I just remember thinking like, oh, this is just a normal dude, Like he's a guy who shaves in the morning and gets razor bumps like anyone else. And he had been such a larger than life figure any president, you know, like the symbol, the hail to the chief, the like trappings of the office, especially him totally, and in that moment I was just like, Oh, he's just a guy like any of us. It humanized him for me. The razor bumps were the thing I latched onto. I affected too, did Isn't that a great word? That word cafexis yeah, which is even cooler because once you throw the X in there, it's like any word is better with an X in it. It's that's that's a rule of culture. That's a real culture. Blood number is that boone, that's a real culture number? Twenty six? Any word I was just trying to reference a word that had X zenax a great word. It's the umammy of letters. It just makes every word. Is that another lilla culture? X is the um of letters? Yes it is. It's culture number fifteen letters. It hits you in the back of the tongue. Yes. I never understood umammy until someone was like, well, what's umami? Is ketchup? And I was like, Okay, I understand. The ketchup has all everything. Ketchup is umami. Se sour, a little bitter. You need a little bitter just to round out yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah. Oh my gosh, you really need all tastes. And that's culture number eighteen. You really need. And I would say that about culture too, And you know, that's a great segue, because I think you need all different kinds of people in this world to blend together to make the culture. And you are a person in culture. You're a culture former, You're a culture reactor. You are the perfect person to ask this question, which is the center question of last porturies does or a Shapiro What was the culture that made you say culture was for you? Okay, I've thought a lot about this and I realized the true authentic answer is one that is not necessarily mainstream or cool, but it's real, and so I'm gonna give it to you. That's perfect. When I was a kid, my parents had a VHS tape dubbed from the television of the PBS performances of Into the Woods and Sunday in the Park with George original cast Wow Bernadette and both Yes Bernadette in both Manny Patinkin and sending the part of George chipsign In the Woods, Joanna Gleeson, Yeah, Joanna Gleeson, and like, I watched those VHS tapes to the point that now thirty years later, I can still recite literally every lyric from every one of those shows by heart. And my parents and said, oh, you know, we're actually related to Mandy Pattenkon, And I was like, wait what, and they were like, yes, our cousin Phyllis is married to his cousin Bert, not my first cousin, not his first cousin. This is like not actually related, but I as this, like young teenager, was so excited about it. I wrote a fan letter to Mandy Potenkon. Were related, My cousin is married to your cousin, and I loved your performance so much and I watched it. He sent back an autographed headshot, which I pinned to my wall and had in my childhood bedroom all through high school. Like other people had guns n' roses posters or Christie Brinkley photos, I had an autographed headshot of Mandy Pattenkin, who I'm sure it looked gorgeous. Of course, it was like the Princess Bride years. Okay, but a star. There is a coda to this story is such a star. Yeah. Fast forward to my adult life as a host of All Things considered. Yes, and I'm interviewing Man Tinkin about his album Wow. And before we start the interview, I say, Mandy, I have a funny story to tell you. And I tell him this whole thing and he says, wait, who's your cousin? And I say, well, my cousin Phyllis was married to your cousin Bert. And he says, oh my god, you were related. Bert is my favorite cousin. He was the greatest. I wait until I tell Catherine, Mandy's wife that we are related to Ari Shapiro of NPO. You have to come to my life show. I'm doing it in DC. When we came to his live show, my parents happened to be visiting DC. We went backstage, he greeted them like family. I'm getting emotional just telling you about this. It's yeah. So that's that's my story. That's like those VHS tapes of the original Broadway performance of Sunday in the Park with George and Into the Woods set me on a journey of culture that continues to this day. Incredible actually perfectly for you because it is because it's a thinking person's musical theater to and I would describe you as a thinking person, thank you. I would describe you as a thinking person too, Matt Rogers, Well, that's huge. Not everyone was. I'm a feeling person, but that's perfect for you, like the Sandheim of it all, And then you know musical theater inclinations like that's perfect. And when I think back to those shows as a kid, I saw Into the Woods as very much about fairy tales, which as a kid made sense. And when I saw the Broadway revival, you know, it was very loyal to the original text. It didn't revolutionize it. But now as an adult, I realize, oh, it's a show about parents and children that uses fairy tales as the vehicle. And I think that as kids, like we as absorbed what we're able to absorb. We take in what makes sense to us. And great works of art can evolve over time in our minds and our understanding and operate on so many different levels. You know. It's the genius of Sondheim, the genius of great art, the genius of great art. I thought the same thing when I saw Into the Woods on Broadway too, where I was like, Oh, my reading of this show in high school was like completely different than like what it is now as an adult. I'm like, this is insane, Like what a gorgeous sort of kinetic work it is. Yeah, it's amazing. And I thought the revival was outstanding. And I will say I just saw the revival of Sweeney Todd. Yeah, well, so I saw it in previews and so I'm actually seeing it. I'm actually seeing it two more times. I'm seeing it this Friday and next Friday. So many times you got copies of my book in the mail exactly, Well, I'm going to read on the subway. I'm going to read each time. Yeah, but that's my favorite musical. So it's it's Sweeney into the Woods or up There from Yes, I love Sweeney Todd. I feel like you could write a whole other musical with just the backstory that is delivered in a single song in the beginning of Act one. Oh you know what I mean, Like, there is so much information delivered in that first song. Yup, It's like you can make a whole other musical about anyway before he was talking about yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean there's so much there. Yeah, I mean it's it's before the action even like begins, you know, absolutely, Yeah, it's so hard sometimes when you really marry a certain version of something in your head. Like I wonder if when you're seeing the revival of Into the Woods, it's like you find yourself like sort of trudging along a little bit mentally watching it because you're so in love with a certain version that you're able to quote and I would imagine like sing along too in ways like because once you get really marinated and like Bernadette's Witch, Oh yeah, it might be hard to hear another witch. But you know what I mean. I expected to feel that way about the revival of Once on This Island, which was another show that that revival reinvented the show in a way that was so exciting. Show you will always be famous, incredible, incredible moment by moment, just surprising, delightful. Yeah, loved, loved, loved. Yeah, there's something about Sunday in the Park, that original production where the dress is still like insane that they made that happen like people who haven't seen it, Like Burnette like steps out of a dress that like mechanically animatronically like opens up and I'm still like, how did they do that? That would be hard to do today. I feel even that and the Witch's transformation, both of them. I'm like, Bernadette has these two moments that are stage magic. Yes, no, Bernadette is such a superstar. I mean like a duh, But like, Bernadette is one of the best of all time. And I wonder how she got like a Kennedy Center honors. Oh, she's overdue, she needs that. I was once at a gym in South Beach, Miami and she was there working out with a trainer, and I actually like suddenly followed her around. Yeah, you have to have to you have How could you not? How could you verify it? Was she doing there? I can't remember it was it was literally two thousand and four. She was doing back Yeah, what she doing there? It was it was upper body. Oh my god. Those are those are formative time. Those are really good, well done. Thank you laid the question. Wow I was dressed about that. Really. Yeah, those are wonderful, wonderful answers. Thank you, thank you. No, I'm so honored that you think so you know what you absolutely have to go see. And I talked about this, the less them because I sort of went on a Broadway tear and I saw everything. You have to see the new Parade Revival. I know, Ari, you will be really moved. You'll have a great time. He is. I was just listening the cast album Kids for the new revival. It's just so so good. I think Jason Robert Brown is Sondheim ascending, you know what I like. I think he is so good. I feel like he has like really revolutionized like and like mastered this new like contemporary musical theater sound. And this is like his first thing. This really holds up. It's beautiful. It's one of his best I love pretty much everything he does. But you gotta make this end bow in YouTube, Like, if there's any free time, this is the one I'm dying to see that I'm dying to see Merrily We Roll Along, And I'm new Sean Hayes play that ran in Chicago, where a friend of mine said it was astounding, and it's about to open on Broadway. It's called Goodnight Oscar. I think Goodnight Oscar. Yeah, I hear, it's amazing. I also want to see that one. And also Jessica Chestein in a Dolls House my college friend Amy Herstock wrote the new translation adaptation, did well, I hear great things about it. Something happens at the end that is such a gag Like it's like, I can't even spoil it. But if anyone out there has seen Jessica Chestin in Nadalla's house, what happens at the end of the play, like the way that Nora like spoiler alert for a doll's house. But even though this is the hashtag actually smarted up episode, if you've made it this far in this episode of Last Culture, you know a doll's house, I'm gonna assume. Oh, but the way that Nora leaves Mama, it might as well have been a death drop. There is there a trapdoor, all of the witch throwing the beans and into the woods, just you know, a screech and a puff of smoke. Wait, really, did I just call it? Is that what happened? I can't confirm her denid trap, but your eyes went wide wide at the recommenition. Now, Matt, I have a question, do we think Annalie is like because this is her what's at least her second time doing sondheime, because she did Sunning the party. Yeah, she's like the new girlie or a new girl today. Yep. I think that is very exciting that there is. I don't even know if we can call her new anymore. She's like she is, of course, no, she's But what I think what Bowen is saying is like, there comes a time when like you become like, yes, musical theater beloved, and but you have done to Sonteime's faby, Yeah you saw him multiple times. It's basically like, what what's the status? Yes? And I think that's important. She're saying that in the same way that we refer to like Bernadette Patty ethel Bet, where we should start just saying Annalie maybe, which is crazy, and also Donna Murphy too, don't forget that conversation. Like, honestly, I will say this, if ever you see an interview with the musical theater actress and they say, well, the first time I met Steve and they referred to him as Steve, that's a tell. That is a huge talent. I think it is so funny when these women say Steve because it's just so familiar and it makes me laugh. But um, what I will say is that he definitely signed off on her casting and liked her casting. I believe I read something in the New York Times that said he was to see a reading of it and then of Sweeney Sweet. Oh yeah, yeah, Like this has been in development now for long enough that he was aware of it, knew of it, and signed off on it. But the interesting thing I found in that article was that this actually was his most personal piece. Yes, I was so surprised to read that. Yes, we're saying that, you know, Steve, this is the story of your life, and he maybe wasn't even conscious of that or didn't want to necessarily admit that. But I mean minus the eating people right exactly, besides the murder and the you know, annibalism. Yeah, and they having rumpled bed with a woman rumpled beddingized. But yeah, this idea that he had been done wrong by the world. M I'm not sure how I feel about his unfinished musical being staged. I don't know. Yeah, it's hard. We'll see, we'll see. I don't know much about that. Actually, it's based on a like Bunuel short story. I might be wrong, it's like a Lorca Baby. It's based on a work of fiction, and he'd been working on it for a really long time. But I don't know much clearly more than we do. But I saw that headline too, and I was like, Okay, okay, let's reserve judgment. I guess we have the goal, and I'm actually gonna have some goal right now. I have to ask you a question, and I think it's going to be a pointed question. All right, here's the thing I have to say to you. So I was at the Kennedy Center and I watched your set, just no big deal, you were hosting your show. I came because I was headlining with Henry the next night, and I watched your set and you were performing a song and you said there was a lyric in your song that was like, and some people watch Housewives sort of roll with your eyes at me. And I thought, this, motherfucker, yes, is being elitist towards me. So here, I was performing the Noel Coward classic Why Do the Wrong People Travel? But having been written in the middle of the twentieth century, there are some lyrics that are quite dated, of course, and so I replaced some with more updated lyrics. However, I think you're playing that quote out of context because the full line was while the right people stay back home and watch Real Housewives. So in the dichotomy of the wrong people traveling and the right people staying back home, you, my friend, are the right people so resting, you should be out there travel. Okay, good. Here's my question to you. What's the quote unquote trashiest or lowest culture that you enjoy? I want to know in your opinion. I mean, I was an early Housewives watcher, but I kind of gave up on that. Love is blind. I mean, okay, you know, okay, wait, it's not trashy. But my friend Alan, I have to shout out The Traders the best reality competition television show I've seen in at least ten years. I binged it. I savored every second of that show. The Traders. Wait. Not to like connect too many dots, but the fact that you're good friends with Alan and that you officiated Alex Wagner's wedding between the most I'm the Traders. Oh my god. As a child, I wanted so badly to be on The Mole back when Anderson Cooper hosted it. There's such a journey with the Mole for people our age. I think like The Mole hit at a very specific important time. I hope I'm not divulging any secrets here, but I actually had a conversation with Alex Wagner when she was considering whether or not to take the Mole and it would have meant going to Australia and quarantining and being away from her kids. And I was like, do you have to do this? I do not delude myself into thinking that is why. She said yes, I'm sure, But I was like, this is the dream, this is dream. She and I were on the same episode of Seth Myers, and I was like, I have to go say hello to her. I'm such a huge fan. And so we talked and yes, she I think she even volunteered that. She was like, I was really debating going, but I think she was saying, like I was so much happy that I was in Australia instead of America during any races. Oh wow, I think the insurrection. I think January six, twenty twenty one, she was in Australia shooting the Mole. Maybe I'm getting weird when you're a news person. So NPR was going through budget cuts then, is going through budget cuts now? I was on furlough on January sixth, and so I was literally not allowed to check my work email or do any work. And it was so strange as a news person to be watching what was unfolding and just thinking like, should I be doom scrolling right now? Should I turn off the TV and go for a walk? Should I like, I can't do what I would instinctually go do, which is like help tell the story of what's happening. And I just found myself so kind of like a drift and at a loss for like, how can I be helpful? How can I be useful, Which, frankly is one of the things that I love about being a journalist is that whenever there's a moment when it's like everybody wants to do something and doesn't know what to do, as a journalist, I know what my job is, what I'm supposed to do. And so that was a strange experience for me on January sixth, especially as it was unfolding like a thirty minute walk from my house not that far from Capitol Hill. I mean, look, it was a tragic moment. It was horrible for democracy, for society, people physically and emotionally and psychologically suffered. For me, as a journalist who wasn't able to practice journalism. It was just it was very odd. Yeah, yeah, I can't imagine because something had to kick in, but then you have to like completely stifle it. Yeah. And at some point when I've been listening to NPR with CNN on mute for the last two hours, it's like, well, do I turn away now, Like do I go take the dogs for a walk and listen to Less culturestas you know, Yeah, there were no help. Yes, the answer to that question is always yes. What if literally like all the journalists had been locked out of their accounts and only Lost Culture could report On January sixth, it was just like, we are here on the ground and what we're seeing is just disgusting. I would love to hear that commentary. People would pay money for that commentary that honestly though, like in a real way, like to be have to be a spect theater. There is really tough when you have the talent and you have the experience that you have to be able to like, you know, especially I remember watching it and there was an element of knowing exactly what was happening, but being so confused. And I think that that is because we've never seen anything like this before in the United States, right, and so it does need to be explained, like what we are seeing is an insurrection. This is the definition of what that means. This is how this could end, This is how much danger these people are in. So it does fall to people like you to be able to get that information across. And I will also say one of the most moving and stirring parts of your book, Best Strangers in the World, is you talking about your experience with nine to eleven and literally speaking on the phone to people in a journalistic capacity who then would perish you know, I guess minutes or hours later. Just that had to be that has to I don't stay with you forever is not even the words. It has to be formative as a person, well, it was formative. I mean at that point I was sort of the most junior person on the staff of Morning Edition. I was working attempt contract. I was working overnights from one to nine am, and I was actually going to go home early because I couldn't stay awake. And then we started seeing smoke coming out of the World Trade Center, and so my job was just to call people in the towers and put them on the air and say what are you seeing? And what I realized that day was so at that point, Bob Edwards was the host of Morning Edition, and he was not a person who spoke more than he needed to. He was a very kind of taciturn person. He's still alive. He is a very taciturn person. And I remember when we went off the air at Knew that day and handed off to the next show, he said, in these moments when everyone is wondering what they can do, we know what our role is. We know what our job is. And I remember everybody was lining up to donate blood, and as a gay man, I was not allowed to donate blood, and I was like, well, here something I can do. And so I would come in for the next several nights. I would like work from nine pm to twelve noon, and one of my jobs was to write short obituaries that would be slotted in when segments came in like a little bit short, and so they were like thirty seconds to a minute. And I remember I found the story of these two men and their son who their son was a toddler. He was one of the youngest people to die that day, and they were flying back from a vacation, and I remember writing an obituary for the three of them and referring to them as a family, and just thinking, you know, that is something that somebody else in this position might not have done. And I felt like, even though it was this tiny, little thirty second thing that just slotted into like a hole in the show, I felt like I had left a small fingerprint on the record of that day, and I thought like, this is a way I can be useful. This is a way I can actually help shape the stories we tell, not as an activist, as a journalist, but as a journalist who brings my own experience and history and identity to the world. So yeah, I was a really profound turning point from unbelievable. You write in the book about how like starting out you would work on obituary packages. That is like a fun peculiarity about like journalism that I find interesting is that like when like our friend Henry Melcher started working at MSNBC and when we're in college, mat that was like one of the things I learned. He was like, no, like it's so funny in these and like my sister would like come home from like Bloomberg or whatever. She was working for Bloomberger at the time, and she was like, yeah, like all these news networks have these opit packages. Do you think that probably like honed some. Absolutely. The great thing about an obituary is it's basically a profile. Yeah, and journalists write profiles all the time, but this is a profile that you don't have to do on deadline because the person is still alive. And for me, as a beginning journalist, it gave me an opportunity to work with NPR editors on important stories that didn't step on any beat. Reporters toes and so I could like gain those skills and build that expertise and do as many edits as I needed to do for stories that you know, might air a month or a year or five years down the road. And it also helped the editors get to know my skills and my interests so that later on they would start pitching freelance stories to me that were not obituaries that were on deadline. And so it was a really important stepping stone for me along the way. And as I write in the book, Hume Cronan was like one of the first big ones who you know, he was married to Jessica Tandy. They both won like a lifetime achievement, Tony. I think they were on Broadway and a million things. They were in films like Cocoons. Yeah, and so yeah, I'll always think fondly of Hume Cronin, who had the courtesy of dying shortly after I did that obituary, so it actually got on the air. So nice of him to sit on the shelf. You got published. Yeah exactly. Wait, I'm not done with the Mole and Traders. Oh yeah, yes about it. First of all, Alex Wagner energetically is so perfect for that job. But then another person I could see being good at something like that is you. I would, in a heartbeat, in a heartbeat, anyone who is making a glam reality show set in some castle. Look, I don't want to be eating worms. I'm not interested in having Cockroe to spill on my head. But put me in some like fancy James Bondish get up and telling twenty desperate people what to do. Yes, signed the up. Yeah. Like what I had heard was Alan had the best time doing it, Like Henry was saying that. He came back and was like, you know, I'm not going to do my Alan coming. But it was, you know, like he was he was so great that he had the best time, and that he was thrilled that they were getting a second season and the absolutely Yeah. And you know most of those clothes were his really yeah. I mean like would add a sash or a beret, roach or something, but like they were mostly his clothes. But something tells me for season two they're likely to have a bigger costume budget, given that there was an entire New York Times feature just about the clothes that Alan wears in that show. Yeah, but that is like an important like it's not even like an ornamental thing. It's like it's an important thing about the visual language of that show, which makes it to stink a little everything else. The thing that kind of burst the bubble a little bit for me was learning that none of them actually slept at the castle. They slept at a like crappy airport hotel offsite. I was gonna say, that makes total sense, That makes total sense, but also it makes it seem so much less fun. And Alan had a little cottage that was not far from the castle. Nobody slept in the castle. Rummer, Yeah, there is a level of like you want to believe they're all in there, but then I guess that's easier to produce what everyone would tell the movie magic. Oh but also I heard that one of them who made it to the finals. I'm not I don't know if this is public. I don't think it's a secret, but I'm just not going to name them tested positive for COVID on literally the day everybody was supposed to fly home, and then had to quarantine in that shitty hotel for another like ten days or two weeks. Yeah, after they had wrapped on this on the show, after they had rapped on the show, I thought you were going to say that they should say tested positive and showed up that I want to find out if I win. Although one contestant tested positive in the middle of the run and just closed on their Instagram. That that's why they like dropped out and disappeared. That's why. Yeah, that's crazy that it tests positive way through the run and like no one else that's and that sucks. It's giving Matt Rodgers in Mexico City. I actually did get COVID one month ago thanks to Alan's husband. We all had like an upstate cat Skills weekend, and I was so grateful that it happened one month before my book tour because I was able to host All Things Considered from home. I sounded like I had a cold, but I felt fine. And now I'm like maximum antibodies, kingponging from city to city, shaking hands with strangers and not worrying about getting COVID. That's are you still enjoying? And this is like obviously like don't You're never going to say no, but like, are you still invigorated and excited about All Things Considered? It's been gears And I wonder, like because whenever you do something for a very long time, and like it has an identity and it has a way that it's done. I know us with this podcast, we're always trying to find ways to make it exciting for us and we've succeeded. Like are you still succeeding in doing that? Here's what I love about hosting All Things Considered? Is it even after six years? I know when I wake up each morning that I'm going to go to bed knowing about something that I didn't know when I started the day. Like I can be curious, I can ask questions I can follow my curiosity wherever it may lead, and the show is formatted so that I can do some big, ambitious project where I travel from Senegal to Morocco to Spain, connecting the dots between climate change, migration and extremism. And then I can interview the incredible South African pop star Nakane about their new album, which, by the way, is my soundtrack of the Summer. It comes out later. Nakane. They released an album a couple of years ago that included an amazing track called New Brighton that was a collab with Annie and it was just a new album. It's called Bastard Jargon. I'm obsessed. There are a couple tracks out already. One of the tracks is a collab with Perfume Genius. Put it on. It will make your life. Were summer anthem, queer summer, non binary, South African influenced London based pop dance extravaganza. You're gonna love it? Wowkay damn. Anyway, So the point is hosting All Things Considered allows me to do both. And yes, I can be like hashtag actually smart, and then I can queen out with Nakane and a combination that's hard to find. Wow, this is very I'm gonna like really try to again connect dots. But this is on a meta level, Like I think this is like the thing about the book, the thing about you, is that there's so much like connective stuff here between, Like the way you're able to like bridge something from like the way you currently are now is like a journalist quote unquote like buttoned up gay guy in DC, but like you like trace it actually like your days in high school, like being like queer, even though like that wasn't the word you used back then. Yeah, to bridge that thing, and to bridge like the things between like all of your stories, and to bridge the thing between like you having these like journalistic boundaries and reconciling that with the fact that you have to be vulnerable on stage sometimes. That was my big takeaway of the book, is that like you can like really shift between these modes. I'm so glad to hear that that was what you took away from it, because I realized kind of in writing it that the through line of my whole life has been trying to make connections and trying to help people appreciate similarities and build bridges across chasms of difference, and the quality that I admire most in people is the ability to make those unexpected connections, bring people together, introduce them, you know, build opportunities for synthesis, and and so you know, like when I was in Mexico City and Henry said, you have to meet up with my friends Matt and Bowen, it was that kind of a thing where I was like, these different worlds coming together and interesting people connecting in a foreign place Like that is the thing that recharges my batteries. And so whether it's performing with Pink Martini or doing a show with Alan Coming, or reporting the news on the radio from a war zone, I'm just really glad that's what you took away from the book, because I feel like that is kind of the underlying like bass note of the whole thing. Code switching, international icon, international codes. Wait a minute, the Queer Molest show should be called like code switch or something, you know what I mean? Bo our host Matt and I can ep or be in it. Can we please make this happen? Code Switch? That is the name of an NPR podcast. Damn shit fuck. That's all right. It can be a reality show too, It can totally be We just got to put an X in it somewhere, so it's different. Like here's what I'll say, because I'll like make a joke and be like, yeah, I want to go on Survivor. I actually want to go on Traders. I really want to be on Traders. Boh, And you'd be an amazing trader. I would not be an amazing trader. I would be an amazing faithful. You'd be incredible faithful. Here's the thing. I've played Mafia with friends over the course of an evening and I get so fucking stressed out and like my blood pressure rises and that's over, you know, two four hours. I try to imagine doing it over weeks, and I think I might literally have an aneurysm. That's why whenever the traders like that's why they all like fucking break down into sobs when they leave, especially the traders when they get like the ones who got found out spoiler alert, they're like sobbing by the time they go. I'm like, yes, because you've been holding you've been like holding it together. It's literally and you don't have any interaction with anyone else. Right when you were a trader, you were experiencing what it means to be posted. And I hope that the straight traders are really considering that what they're experiencing for two weeks many of us experienced for many years. And you need to write I write this. We need to see this published in the Atlantic, New York Magazine and the New York first. It's that good. First I'm going to publish it as a rule of culture. This is rule of culture number ninety. When you are a trader, you are and I know it eats them up because it's very hard. It's it's very hard, meaningful that the only non straight white male trader was three period. Like someone who like like is like, you know, visibly a very specific like identity. Let's say yep, and so she knows how to like huh in a way code switch? Maybe. Wow. Look, if you're going to write a think piece, you need more than one idea. So this is I like where this is going. First of all, co authored by line, he writes the foreword to the published piece. But no, but like I have to say, if these people on Traders did not know who Surree Fields was and what she was capable of, then that's your problem. She is an iconic four time survivor contestant who has been robbed of the win at least once in a real way. And I will say this, the most cathartic moment for someone who loves reality television was watching Surree Fields do that to Aria Leindike Junior. Because there is not a more unsung hero of reality television than Surree Fields, and there is not a more despicable act than the one that Ari lyoned, like Junior committed on his season of The Bachelor. So to watch that happen in realel so Ari basically proposed to one woman and then Becca, and then three weeks later, with the cameras in tow, came to our house and said, I I'm actually picking the other girl. And if you remember, Cecily did this on SNL, Cecily played this girl and they did a whole bit of like the cameras following around, like they were like outside the bathroom draw while she's sobbing and like Ari's there, like Becca, you have to come out and She's like fuck you. And basically that was as low as it possibly gets a show like The Bachelor. And so to watch the Refields look him in the eyes and said, you don't deserve this. And then do we think she knew that? Do we think she had seen that season of the Bachelor. I think she's seen everything. I don't think that's why she made the decision. I think she made the decision to be like, you're a trader because she was like, fuck you, you were not coming into the last second and splitting this money with me. This is my money. There was an interview where she was like, if it had been two million dollars, maybe I would have shared it, but two fifty k No, No, absolutely, they need to raise that prize pot too. I'll say, I agree. I want to start a go fund me to like but that's you want to be Cia. How much just how much does Sea give depends year to year? Do you know about this, Ari, I have no idea what you're talking about. I know who Sia is. I do not know about you know, the iconic Sia. She watches Survivor every season and just picks her favorite contestants and just sends them money Like that is a thing that is I And it started years ago when she came to like a like a Survivor finale reunion, and Jeff Probes was like, my friend Sia is in the audience and she loves the show and she wants to come on stage, and so she was and she just comes on stage with her wig and was like I love this shine. That was my um. But she was to do a better Cia than An Allen. Sometimes I can do Allan, but only in private and no one will ever know. Well, but basically, like, yes, CIA is like another prize pot that you can win. It's like if you impressa you get a good edit up. I love It's the wild card. It's the prize, the wild card to see a moment. And so Bond wants to be that for Traders. Yeah, I want to be the Traders. That is a whole waiting to be filled. Oh yeah, period, honey. I hope Alex get to do another season of them. Do we know is the Mull renewed? I have no information on that. I feel like it was no information. I thought it was too I mean, here's the thing. It's weird because like Netflix is the Mole and Peacock is Traders. I do feel I felt more conversation around Traders. Oh absolutely. And also Traders was big fish, small pond. The Mole was a small fish, big pond, Like nobody was talking about Peacock before, say, and and this is such terrible synergy, but they did send me like a huge care package full of peacocks swag. And it's like and then literally Susan Rovener, head of NBC, emails me pictures of the wheelhouses of Miami. In the photos like they were like, it was the day I want to talking about how much I love Peacock. She like, Who's, like, thank you so much your photos from the like the Miami arena that we just shot today. Anyway, Oh what I want that? I want a care package from Peacock. I want a care package with those little packets you can throw into the fire to make it burn green or red. The drama of that so good. I love that. You guys need to watch UK Traders, I've heard. Yeah. UK Traders doesn't have Alan, but it has this other iconic woman hosting it. I'm forgetting her name. I'm losing her name, but she's like a thing in British culture. She's amazing. Wait are there reality stars in that one? Or no? It's all regular people, which I actually is My big note for US Traders is I think it should just be all reality people because I think that they get what's necessary of them. Oh, Claudio Winkleman is the host of UK Traders and she is a story that's never been told. I love her her bangs, I love it all. I love her energy. She's like Alan is very like dramatic, and Claudia is very British and god, I love that. So okay, we're gonna make code switch with an X. We can first option to peacock and after that we'll see where it cost. Yep. I love this, really, I actually love this. I think it's time for Bowen and I to co host a reality show. It's pastime. It is long past all three of us. I'm gonna say, I'm not entitled too much in this life and in work, but I think all three of us deserve to host that kind of show. Can I tell you I actually have a concept for this, Bowen and I'm gonna sideboat with you because I think I've come up with an idea for us to co host show. Yes, but it's really good and I actually do want to pitch it, and I think it's really good. This is I remember was it Otko who her? I don't think so hard. It was about friendship reality shows. Yeah, this is the show that she's been long. It's not necessarily that it's more, but there's it's a twist show. So it's like you think it's one thing and then it's another, like a Milf Manner exciting. I don't really it's like Milf Manner, I got it. Have you watched Milf Manner? You know, I'm so sorry. I'm too afraid. I'm I'm like, it's it's gonna be too too disturbing, you know, it gets really it's the darkest version of what you think. It's gonna be very fast. It's hard to come back from abistle stuff like, yeah, truly abistle. Abyssle is a Yiddish word that means a little bit abistle, just a bistle. That's funny, just abistle, just a bistle. Also a front runner for the title of up. This episode's full of them. I think it's b I S S e L b I S E L. That's not what I thought I would have thought. B I S T L E. Oh, like a bristle without the R. And that's what gets me. Cut out the spelling be like a motherfucker is the book out now. It is yes audio book as well. I narrate the audio book. If you like me telling stories in your ears. You can get the best strangers in the world on audio book. And why wouldn't they want that? I mean, maybe because they get two hours of it every day on all things considered, but I don't know because they love Can I ask you a question, did you find the writing of the book a difficult process? I feel embarrassed saying this, but no, for me, it didn't think really really unenjoyable process. Um, it was just like one step at a time, one bit at a time, and then you know, I just gave myself permission to not be great in first draft, and then I would set it aside for a few weeks or months and go back and make it, you know, hopefully better. And I just right now feel so god like fortunate and satisfied to hear the way these stories are connecting with people and the people are finding meaning on them. It's really a very unusual experience for me that I'm kind of just trying to save her. It's really excellent. I mean, I think one of the big reasons people connect with you is that you find the angle that like cuts through the noise, and like the way you talked about Pulse was like the perfect example. It's like you did a story about like people going out the next day in Orlando to Parliament House. It's like, oh, but like what other what other news outlet is doing that? You know, Like it was probably just like several days, if not like a couple of weeks of coverage about like the victims obviously and like necessary story storytelling in that way. But like I think the fact that like you would go to like these ours in Orlando immediately after and like talk to people going and why is really beautiful. And I mean that particular story, like I knew what that place meant. Like I'd been going to gay bars my whole life. I had gone to gay bars in Orlando, and like it wasn't until the very end of that reporting experience where I was talking to this guy who was editor of the free gay weekly paper in Orlando. He has since passed away. His name was Billy Mains, but I was telling him like, oh, yeah, years ago, I went bar hupping in Orlando and I met these bartenders who were so sweet, and they took me out the next night and that had been twelve years before the Pulse nightclub shooting, and so I didn't remember the name of the bar, and I was sure that it had closed. But Billy Mains said what bar was it? And I said, I don't remember. I'm sure it's long closed. And he said, well, what was the layout, like? What did it look like? Because he lived in Orlando forever, and so I described what it looked like where you sort of walk in and there's a dance floor on your left and a sort of bar on your right, and he said that was Pulse. And I just in that moment, realized that like this place I had been reporting on all week that I knew I had some connection to, just from it being a gay bar, which is a place that I had spent so much time in my life, like, it was not only a place that I had an abstract connection to, it was a place that I had a personal, immediate connection too. And I looked on my phone for the name of that bartender who I had met twelve years earlier, and his name was in there with an email address that set at Pulse Orlando dot com. There were two bartenders, one had moved to Chicago, and was no longer working there. The other was still working at Pulse, not on the night that the massacre happened. But it just made me realize that, like as a journalist, I can approach stories as an outsider, and there's value to that, but also the experiences that I have, my life, my history, my perspective on the world is not something that I have to set aside and put in a box when I go out and tell stories. It's something that I can bring to the stories I tell that can make them richer and deeper and more nuanced and more meaningful, incredible, It gives you like the take that really does again like cut through something that like cuts through the din of like what everyone is already hearing over and over again. I just always ask myself, how can I make listeners who are busy doing other things hear this? How can I make them try to, you know, stay parked in the driveway even though they're late to pick up their kids or whatever the case may be, because they need to hear the end of the story. What's the way I can tell this story that people are going to say, Oh, I see what those people are going through and relate to them. And don't just see them as somebody other, somebody far away, somebody different, but somebody who I have a lot more in common with than I might realize. Do you consume a lot of other NPRS stuff like are you an NPR person outside of working there? Well, I graze widely. I mean I try to know what's on Morning Edition each day, and I try to this and all things considered every evening when I'm not hosting, And that's a total of like four hours of content. So the rest of the stuff that I consume is sort of a little bit of a lot of things. Gotcha you listen away way, don't tell me, just sure do. In fact, my Chicago book event is with Peter Sagel legend. I just had a baby, and he's so sweet and wonderful to do my book event with me even though he has a little tiny child. And King, I'm doing that show this week. You are, yeah, Chicago, Matt Rogers, Mary the lead? Is this your first time? Second time? Oh, We're gonna have so much fun. I love it. I love doing the show. They don't do well on it, but I think I bring a good energy. Bowen would absolutely slay it. I did it over zoom. But like the thing is, Um, you don't have to be good at it to have fun. No, no, it's a blast. People don't listen for the knowledge. That's not why people are tuning in and scheidenfreude. People also not knowing what the fuck is, which is not necessarily true. Um okay, So I think we have to segue into I don't Think so Honey, which is the segment of our podcast where Bowen Yang, Matt Rodgers, and the guests. On this episode it is Ari Shapiro. They all take one minute to rant it on something in culture that absolutely deserves a pulling down from the perch and a slapping in the head. I have something. It is topical. We haven't yet discussed this major moment in culture that is in process, but I have I don't think so honey about it. I know what this says, I intrinsically notes who I am. Do you know what this is? I can't wait. I think so yeah. I have a feeling this is Matt Rodgers. I don't think so honey. As time starts new, I don't think so honey. Your notes on the Era's set list, The Errors Tour setlist we're giving notes on it. Okay, I understand there are some odd choices Miss Americana and the Heartbreak prints as the opener, listen, all she wanted to say was it's been a long time, and then she segues into what should And I predicted that she would open this concert with months and Months and months ago summer. That is essentially the first song that opens the show. I don't want to hear that you miss Sparks Fly. We are getting the speak Now era across with Enchanted. She comes out in the blackgown, gives you the moment we have felt, the speak Now era. She gives you full on reputation. She gives you everything you need from en eighty nine, I don't want to hear from nine. We get all the hits. I don't want to hear that you miss the self titled. The self titled as an era is encompassed with Fearless. We don't need the self title. If you're lucky, maybe she'll give you Tim McGraw on that one song she does, which is a different song every single time. Era's toward no notes. I am watching on YouTube and going three times this summer. I don't think so one of your notes. That's one man in Vegas. She's saying our song. And you know what, maybe what I hope for everyone out there is that if they are the types of people that want another speak now moment, that she gives you sparks fly that who knows, maybe you'll even be the lucky one period that didn't even mean to do that. And also get dear John, I think back to December. I would love but there's so much acoustic, ready made stuff. Maybe you'll get one. But listen, it isn't the discourse. The point. Isn't the hating the point? You know? Yeah, And here's the thing. I am anti sicko fans. Okay, I believe that fandom is dangerous because I believe that fandom is dictatorship. And I believe that intense fandom actually defeats the purpose of even enjoying things, because if you can't actually swarm, if you can't talk about and enjoy and like pick apart the things you like and also drag and be a little nasty sometimes like you're all you are is just an unhelpful clabber on in discussion, and then it all gets like labber on, you're a clabber on. Okay, I couldn't find the word but the word sycophant. And I only have so many words that I say yeah, yeah, yeah, but you know what I'm saying, No, totally, totally, And but I'm the kind of person I always have something to say. I always have that. I don't think there's ever been a tailor album or tailor moment in culture that I've not been like, this is great, but this like, I always have something to say with the aerostour, She's out there giving you three hours and fifteen minutes of constant entertainment, giving you the whole thing. She said, I know it was difficult to get these seats. I know it was difficult to get these tickets. I'm gonna make it a moment you'll never forget. I don't want to hear notes on a three hour and fifteen minutes set list. I just don't. Matt. I have a question for you for your three viewings of this performance. Do you have a plan for the scale of sobriety to anybriation, how you plan to experience each of the three You know, I think that what Bone and I have found recently is that mushrooms are our girl for all three or for one of the three or like or take them an one hour into the three hour set, Like, what's the strategy? What was our cocktail when we saw Chromatica? Chromatica was RUMs and cokes. It was RUMs and cokes, and then it was I think we got beers there. Yeah, but we also had and what I mean by cocktail was drug cocktail. So we were a little bit I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, but it was rum and coke at the bar like pre game. And then we took like mushroom chocolates like before we got in the car. Yeah, and then once we got there we ordered beers. That was they were holes. That was the full journey. And I would describe the way we felt that Chromatica or should I say on Chromatica as one of the happiest nights in my life. Well then you gotta reapply that serum. Yeah. Yeah, I'm beyond excited for this. Like, and we haven't talked about Aerostaur, but it I've been watching the YouTube videos. It looks so fun. Wait, Bowen, was that what you thought Matt was gonna do? Was that where you thought he was going? He was gonna talk about the Gwyneth's trial. I thought it was like, oh my god, new episode. Start from here. Trial trial is its own episode like that to the Gills with the Gwyneth trial was such it was like lost half a day skiing, well, I lost half a day sking what was your name? Christen? Christ I was gonna say. I was gonna say, Kristen, you skied into my fucking back. Is the new from Aaron Brockovich, That asshole faston my fucking nap. You ski directly into my fu bang back. What a legend. It was unbelievable to consume. And it never stopped, like the hits kept coming all day when she was on trial. And I don't think it's over right, like I think it's currently maybe maybe, but it's the apple. Martin hasn't yet been called to the stand. They will live forever in our hearts. It will live. I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that it's happening that they allowed cameras in the courtroom. I'm grateful they didn't inflict those courtroom sketch artists on us. No, no, we don't want to see Gwyneth dune and wax pass stelt chalk. She I don't think she did. I think she wanted the cameras in there. Yeah good. I think she said, everyone looking, how ridiculous this is. She knows her audience, she knows how to play to them. Unbelievable. But wow, I understand why you thought that. Bow And it really shouldn't have been that. But I have to say, like people discussing what they're missing from the aerostore of a three hour, fifteen minute performance, I'm like, you, guys, come on, she can't do the full discography. She cannot, All right, So, bow and Yang, are you ready for your I don't think so, honey. I am okay, this is Bowen yangs. I don't think so, honey. His time starts now. I don't think so, honey. A bookmark made of metal, Oh you mean a nice you mean a switch blade? I was reading I've been reading very recently, including with Ari's book, with a metallic bookmark that I'm not going to name the company that makes them, but they might as well have been Lockheed Martin, because these are weapons that can kill. These our weapons that can take lives. And I had many close calls with this blade of a bookmark, and I said enough, I posted in the hotel trash bin, which is we've discussed on this podcast. Those hotel trash kins are too small to realize. This is a sharp spin. This is for needles. This is for bookmarks that are knives. And if you're making bookmarks with that are metallic, there are going to be casualties. Someone's going to die and there will be consequences period. Trust trust you will be done with blocking Martin, stop it with these bookmarks. Any company that's making metallic bookmarks is locking. Did TSA let you through with that? Somehow? It was in my carry on? And know it's like, how is this? I can kill someone with this? I will kill someone with this. This is going to Cuba, Jesus in a war zone. You could like perform surgery with it. That's a scalpel owen Hunt probably performed surgery that I'm I guess you don't watch Gray's Anatomy Me. No, no, not even during the Golden Age when it actually was prestige. I actually did not. I am so starry to disappoint you as a Pacific Northwesterner. I know, I know, I know, I watched Portlandia. Does that count as a Pacific Northwest show, Yes, desolutely? Is that from an earlier era at Twin Peaks? Also? You know, yes, oh yeah, isn't X Files around that area? I mean, I watched it when I was a child, but I don't remember where it was set. I feel like X Files would make more sense to be in set in like DC, right because they're dealing with sensitive information those the later seasons. Okay, I will say I did try to watch X Files once from the beginning, and I was like, at a different time, it was different. But they still be making them all, right, do they really? Yeah? There's like every now and then they'll be like an X Files movie and everyone's like, oh great, and then like that. I guess I don't think there's been one for a while. They're not okay, Yeah, I don't know if that's true. Every once in a while, like in two thousand and one and two thousand and five, I feel like, you know, like constantly always in the news, it's like and the new X Files movie is right around the corner, and I'm always like, huh, you're thinking of scream. I think, yeah, that's what it is. Okay, So Ari, this is the most Are you ready for you? I don't think so, honey. I'm ready, I'm ready. Okay, this is Ari Shapiro's I don't think so, honey, A very exciting moment in time, and his time starts now. I don't think so, honey. Strangers going out of their way to tell me that I sound sick on the radio. If you show up to a party and you feel like, maybe I shouldn't go to this party. I'm a little worn out. It's been a rough week. And you get to that party and the host of that party greets you at the door and says, girl, you look tired. Do you really want to hear that from the host of your party. No, this is the same thing, but coming from strangers. If I'm congested on the radio, girl, I know that I am congested on the radio. And unless you were reaching out to actively, Uber Eats, Matsible soup to my house, and no, I am not giving you my home address. I don't need you to inform me of that which I'm already aware. And furthermore, if I am hosting with a cold, I am doing so from a home and you are getting a free product. It is public radio. Yes I know you can donate to your local public radio station, but you know ninety percent of listeners do not. I just made up that statistic, but I'm pretty sure it's true. So appreciate what you're getting for free, even if you're getting it with a little bit of a raspy cough and a little bit of congestion. Because I know that I'm hosting with a cold, and I don't need you to tell me. I don't think so, honey, and that and that's one minute, very well done. Do you get that when you're hosting the podcast with a cold? Do you get readers? Katie's publicist, you sound sick? Thanks, I was unaware. Appreciate the info. What I got recently was it sounds like Matt Rogers has a cocaine problem. Actually, I do kind of appreciate that. I think that's kind of hilarious. I was like, I literally responded. I was like, I don't have a cocaine problem, thank you very much. I have a contained solution. Yeah. Period. And then they were like, oh, well it sounds so. I guess you just have a habit that you're on top of them. And I was like, wow, these dms again, I was like I can't believe this. I was like, if you must know, I've been sobbing for months, that's why I sound nasal cocaine. You don't need to say that. It's so wild. I feel like you two could probably relate to that. I felt like, absolutely, I'm aware. I am aware when I sound less than my best and your y'all's noting it for me is not appreciated as you literally had COVID nineteen. I literally had was hosting from home and when people were like, you sound like you shouldn't be on the Arrow's like, no shit, you know, I guess I'm kind of like, I'm really happy that you didn't get COVID that day. We were in boyfriendship, and I'm really happy you didn't get it. But that makes me feel like I have like limptic COVID. What does that mean My COVID wasn't powerful? Oh oh, I see, I'm sorry, Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, My COVID wasn't coming out of my body like that girl. You're sad that you didn't give someone else COVID. I'm not just someone else. It would have bonded our friendship. It would have cemented our meat cute story and then after we went shopping together we got COVID. I know. I was like, I swear I know you have COVID. Now, I was like, because I literally I think, oh yeah, I remember. I started to feel awful, like right after and then took a test and I was like, oh god, I have to Ari Shapiro that I gave him curled. Nobody was surprised to get a text from you saying I have COVID. We all know how that New Year's that New Year's trip went. It's like, yeah, well that's what comes of it. Tame though, honestly, were we not on a scale like oh that night we were pretty tame? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, that's true. Same we had lovely cocktails, yeah, and sushi. This was coming off of Omicron. Now this is like still Omicron is still kind of in the air. It was the Winter Surge. Yeah, it was that time. That was when I guess, you know, one million people got it all at once. Yeah, you're one in a million, Matt Rogers. You are because you not only didn't get it, not only didn't contract COVID that day, but happened to be you. And you've written this incredible book and it's called The Best Strangers in the World and it's stories from a life spent listening, which I think is beautiful. Thank you so much. We absolutely loved it and we've loved having you. I have loved this conversation the best ninety minutes of this entire book tour. That is really hyperbolic. Name one person that this was more fun to do than talk to that you sent me to call them? Absolutely not, this is absolutely we're messy here. I want you to name one person on the tour. I'm gonna just whisper it really quietly, so that with your full throat. But wow, thank you so much. Pick up the book by the audio book. It's a really special one. You're not going to regret. I really was just like, what what a Gordon in Merching Greeds? Thank you? Everybody check it up and we Bowen Yang and I we had every episode of with a song and it's true say it's a cruise. He gave the thumbs up on it. And if you want to hear more of that, you'll see the Era's tour. It's the first song, Bye Bye Bye