Look man, oh I see you? Why why? And look over there? How is that culture? Yes, goodness, dull, I was teasing you about a surprise I had for you, my sister. You said you would surprise me with something. It's now time for the surprise to be revealed. And that's always the best part of the surprise, I feel, is the review of culture. Oh it's rule culture number what six six? The best part of the surprise reveal. So I have in my hands right here. Um, this is a result of our conversation with rose Dam. And this is also me reviewing to rose Dam that I own these now. Um A reader reached out. They somehow we're able to get their hands on these. Joe Anne Trattoria World Pride. We were given three. Okay, so these are the v Joe and Trattoria Degaga's restaurant, World Pride, her father her Well, yes, we can assume that she's in some way getting some ownership over that. What does it say on the back? I didn't read that properly. It says, okay, there are Italians everywhere, my god, Because lady Gaga famously an Italian girl first and foremost, just an Italian girl from New York. Now we let's just describe this visually to the listeners, to the readers. We have podcast our visual medium. The lock up is Joanne and then this and then tritoria under that a Rose vector are underneath makes the joe in a little bit eligible to be honest. But then you have the strike graphic design notes I'm sorry, I'm you know, I'm just giving them. And then it's sort of laid out as if the Joeann Trattoria is in the top left section of the U. S. Flag, but the stripes instead of red, white and blue are the Pride colors and white and says at the bottom twenty nine World Pride Parade. At the back. As we've said, there are Italians every where in bold read letters. I really this is just thank This is the side im and there are three larges and we're all I'm gonna bring it to you when I see you in New York and I will see you in New York soon. And this actually is my way of getting Rose to have coffee with me. Oh my god, you guys have to meet that. This is my gun to her her proverbial head um, to get her out of the house, to get coffee with me girl. The culture that has sort of befallen us in the past. We could say seven days, but really twenty four hours wild we had the Oscar nominations, we had the Grammys. Now come on, now we were recording during the Megan Oprah and really shame but we haven't even like assessed that. But really quickly, I mean an interview that we will talk about for a long time as a culture. I mean, who is having that conversation, who ever really came through that conversation. I will say both of our I don't think so, honey, is from last week. We're actually, without having even watched the interviews, very prescient because mine was I don't think so honey, people who are only just now realizing Oprah is quote good at interviewing, which was happening on Twitter, and yours was, I don't think so honey. Royal family, and I would say decidedly those are standing tall. Absolutely. Mine was very broad, yours was very specific. I mean, I think we balanced both of those scopes very well. But I don't think so Honey, the Royal family they gotta go. I think they gotta go. Grammy's I thought, what an interesting night. What an interesting night. That's not a glowing review. I really enjoyed that the the awards were evenly distributed. Thank you. I always love whenever they don't go all to one person. I love an even distribution and do a got her moment. Taylor got her moment. I'm wearing my Taylor swift to sort of commemorate the third Album of the Year win for Folklore. Snaps to you, Taylor, you joined the legends Megan. Megan got awarded nicely, also arguably got snubbed at the end. But I don't think our opinion matters. I think we can say was everything you want to buy Billie Eilish the Record of the Year to the Grammys? Yes, so, I think the rest of the world probably not. But on a production level, was it like an incredible like are they being are? Are? Are are they still? Like? Hard for Phineas? Maybe incredibly hard for him. Mr Harry Styles got a nice and I was really hard for him. That's so hard that I had to make him my phone background. He's actually my phone background on today. That's like you can't really see because they got sort of icons in the way. He really he was really looking good. It's really wild that even yea, even even through the screen, through the camera, he can bradiate that it's it's it's really wild. It really works. Did you see the clip of him catching up with Taylor. I did see the clip with him catching up with Taylor. They were gesticulating very in a very friendly ways, were very fun. They they seem to be on good terms. They were very we're we're seeing each other and this is normal energy. Yeah, oh yeah, And I mean that's that's the thing. I mean, have haven't we all mastered that? There is like an extra layer of conversation now where it's like we all have to like in the moment adjust to like the pinching of the mask up all that. There's just little ticks now that we've all Oh, I see the sort of a state of being that is conversating with the mask, with the mask with and then and then you know, like trying to like pull it down sometimes when it's like I want you to read my lips and it's like a little bit dangerous, yeah, or like this is the part of conversation where I'm letting you know it's actually just me and you because I'm pulling down the mask a little bit and like sort of defying what society and the quote unquote c d C says we should be doing. Understand I supposed c d C. Now I just before we bring it, before we're in the guests, then I want to know how hard were you for the oscars fully erect or like sort of chub chub, Regina King got snubbed, Wee night in Miami got snubbed. Um otherwise otherwise really really fund nominations in there. Steven Stephen, Um, Young Junune fantastic um and Leaa Chung really really fun and Lucas brothers are Oscar nominees for Judas in the in the Black Messiah, Like this is this is really fun. Make Boner was throbbing, for sure. Make Boner was throbbing. But anyway, speaking of awards, we were talking to Um, a decorated person, Tony Award winner among other things, and speaking of throbbing. To be honest with you, now, oh my god, we said, currently I've been I've been throbbing all day, never robbing. We are never throbbing with when it comes to this person. And this is someone who has really um really takes to being objectified gracefully. I think, well, I mean it's been happening for decades, so I would imagine that he's adjusted, And if he hasn't adjusted, i'd tell him to get help, get help, because it's not gonna stop anytime soon, certainly not going to stop in the next eighty minutes, not at all. Um he I mean, it's it's an exercise and futility to even try to like give you the highlights of his credits. But he's he's a treasurer of the theater of television, of film. Everyone, please welcome into your ears. Well you're not even when you're not even gonna try. You're going to say it's an exercise of futility, but I'm gonna try. No, no, you aren't even going to try. Stand by, We're gonna get into the credits and see. I know that we are. But I was like, I thought that was I thought that was like sort of so bold of you, because this is a legend. We have to say, this is an icon, but this is this is like you know, Letterman or whoever, being like my next guest, and yes it is. I really don't. But I mean, alright, alright, well we're about to do it anyway. We're gonna just hash this out. Everyone. Welcome, b D, welcome, high, come on, you know who you are. Okay, hello, gentlemen, you want to um push back against this? What what are you? What are you pushing back again? You know. I'm definitely not like, like false modestying it necessarily, but I do go into a situation every once in a while I think we'll really do people really know they do? And sometimes I'm absolutely sure they do, and then other times I'm like, yeah, okay, I think somebody needs to kind of like maybe whisper to that person. You know, they're gonna know, they're gonna know you for your people. Your people are people, Yeah, Yeah, we're in there now, they're in there. They're the right people. Yeah. And by our people, you mean Jurassic Park fanatics enthusiasts. Matt wants. Matt wanted to ask you, Oh, I have something, but not directly. Well he will, He'll let him miss here. No, no, no, no, I really wanted to ask. There's a million things to talk with you about, but there's something very specific that I need to know. So I am a person who and this is one of my goals One of my dreams is to book a franchise big enough that there will be a theme park ride made after it, so that I can be acting on the videos that play in the line for all of time. You are one of the few people who has sort of um achieved this. So you are on a loop at all times, well not seven, maybe some special days of the year. But let's just say if if, if there, if the theme park known as Universal Studios is open and b D is performing in it, you are on a loop in the Jurassic World attractions. I've never seen this, by the way, but I've never seen it. I've never but something by the time it, I mean, it's not that old. And then yeah, I haven't been to l A and they have to have a lot pandemic and all that stuff, So I have not seen it. But what was the experience of shooting the footage of a theme park? Very strange because it's way after the fact, it's not part of the movie. It has to be separate from the movie, but have to have all the approvals and it has to adhere to all of the story points and blah blah blah, and Colin Trobarrow the director of the Jurassic World, two of the three directors World movies, has to approve of what is being said. But at the same time, costume and wardrobe and like, these people are just kind of hired to do put it together, and they kind of watched the movie and kind of recreated but you don't have like your real costume or or you know that it's not like it's not as you can imagine you think about it from a production standardpoint, it's a whole new, separate production. Yeah, okay. I didn't know that though, because I heard the Marvel people that it's sort of built into their like Guardians of the Galaxy, and they shot footage for the Disney ride while they were shooting the new Guardians, like and I didn't know if that was the case for YouTube. It wasn't. And that was and I think that was only just because this one was made after the fact, you know, like they the time we figured out that they wanted to make this ride, the movies were done or the movies were coming and they were coordinating it. But it wasn't bad. It wasn't It was just kind of as as the performer. It's odd because you think you're done with it, and then you come back and it's like okay, And then then you find yourself in the strange position where you're explaining to them very basic things or reading the script and saying, yeah, I don't know. It doesn't really feel like that feels like the writing is exactly what he might say, so maybe I would. So then I got involved in that. So there was like writing involved, and um, there's nothing wrong with that either, but it isn't what you would assume, like you'd get the script and go, oh, I see they're all fully aligned already and everything is together there. They have a learning curve to the people that are putting it together, and there are three of them. Oh, this is what's really interesting. There's a Florida one and I don't know if it's open yet or not, but you did shoot new footage for that Velocity coastution. Okay, this is this is really what I wanted to ask about, because I'm this roller coaster looks intense. B D. You're gonna have to get down there. You're gonna have to get down there to watch yourself. Weren't gonna weekly different ride, completely different audience experience prior to the ride. I forget what it's called. It's kind of acronym. And and then so that each each team is completely different, the director and everybody, everything's just completely different. The first one, the one that we did, had a lot at first, had a lot of like improv and there was a little bit of a wink to it. And then then I started as a shoot went on, I got the impression they were, Oh, they don't like this, They're going to like use all the very serious stuff. So I don't even know what it's like. What is it like? Yeah, well, the thing is, it's sort of like it's sort of like this. It's like we're walking through the queue and I I look up to the screens and I see that it's you b D. And there's like a lot of children screaming around me, you know what I mean, So you can't really hear it. So while I think that they did appreciate all the improv, I think that they thought to themselves, but you know, kids are going to be screaming over well, maybe it's still in there, and you know you know what, I hope it's you improvising about whatever the funk and the kids just screaming over it so that they can't even hear it, and they don't even know You're not talking about raptors or nothing. You're talking about some crazy and exactly I'm talking about you guys, exactly, I hope. So, but are the stakes lower to you? And maybe this is an unfair question, but are the stakes lower to you because it's not canonical and because to the children who are like populating these parks, they can't track what's going on in the queue, like no, well, yes, and no, I mean, let's one has to be kind of like not. If I put everything into everything all the time, I would never make it because there's just so much, you know, like like I like I I wanted, I want to do a really good job, and I wanted to be as good as possible, and I overthink and I over commit and like stay up too late whatever I do to prepare. But at the same time, it is what it is after a certain time. And the best example, Boon, you would probably appreciate this. It's the third one. You know what the third one is Dominion Dominion Park. Oh, what is it? Oh, it's the one. It's the one. Um, yeah, the new one that they're opening where is it Hong Kong or Japan? And so uh, I had to do it in Chinese. I don't speak and I don't speak Chinese, so I had to cram Chinese, and then of course they dubbed me and the onsets. I will say the onset experience for that was very upsetting because I wanted to do a good job and I was all of my Asian American kind of shame about speaking the language and all of that started like coming up, and I wanted to do as good a job as possible, but they weren't giving me the t is that I needed. They wanted to go really fast, and I had explained to the months ago, this is what I need, but I couldn't. I didn't have it, so so it that was disappointing to me. But and that was a perfect example of me saying, Okay, you gotta let it go because it is what it is. They don't care about what you care about, they don't care about any of that stuff, so just let it go. But um, but that was so by the time I got to the third one, I thought, oh wow, I really but again, another completely different ride with a completely different script and a completely different shooting thing. It's all all independent. Yeah, but this is a character Henry Wu who has has lived on for twenty plus years, and you wear a black turtleneck like, no, no other man and thanks, don't you know Sean Connery, But no, no, no. I think I think you've remarked on this that after is done a little dirty at first, and maybe there is a chance for him to occupy this very impactful and I think by the time you get to Fall in Kingdom, he whatever he's he's basically I mean, doesn't he get like whatever, He gets like sterilized and ship he gets castrated professionally, Yes, you know, he's like taking his lost his license and and so he's been humbold because he's really arrogant. In the first of the three of the of the Jurassic World movies, he's very that's the black that's the black turtleneck thing. Yeah. Yes, he was really the cock of the walk. You know, he he knew he was the hottest man in the world. Yeah, it was, you know, Yes, he was basically Steve Jobs. Basically when when you guys were just saying he was sterilized, I was like, Okay, how high was I when I watched that movie, because like, I don't I don't remember him being sterilized, but I remember a lot of crazy should happened, like the Little girl let the doc let Disgnus was free at and because she was like them too. Yeah, I was like, this movie is camp. I love it. In the original, in the original novel and the book the Michael Criton like like Henry wu is like like just to him part of Yeah, they need to beef up the role. How is the how is the how is it in dominion? What can you say? He can't say anything. I won't say a lot, but I can say fun things. Well, first of all, just attract the whole thing. I think this is one of the more interesting things that's ever happened to me, actually, because when I was asked to come an audition for the part, I was, um, I had I read the book and I was I got really excited, and then they had to read scenes from the book to audition. I forgot how it was very strange, it was very it was not a real script. And then um, I got the part and I was really excited. And then I got booked for one day and I thought oh no, that about what could could they do all that? And one day? And I thought no? And so then because I hadn't read the script, and then I find that it was one of those things we had to go to the somebody's Steve Spielberg's office, sit in the lobby in the waiting room, read it and give it back. And and um, I've read it and discovered it was a one day part. It became that part that's in the movie, that that's it, without even an ending, like everyone's fleeing the island and all that stuff. That person made no impact was had, there was no consequence to them. And I was very disappointed personally. And I also had enough of a spine at that time to think, is this an Asian American thing? Is this because there's no Asian American movie stars and I'm not one of them. And and I really believed that they had to make this cuts and changes and you know, the people are all still alive again to last them. But but um, I think they didn't care about this character because he didn't appeal to the audience at that time in our cultural history. And so that was great, and then it was over and and then years later it came back around in this very weird way because they re in read whatever you call it, Reese rebooted the whole thing. And I had a close friend Nathan who told me this would happen because he's a big friend of the fan fan of the franchise. And he says, it it's got to come back to you. It has to come back to you. And I said, I don't see why it would or how it would, but okay, and then it did and he was right, And um, the first one happened. And the first one was a complete one, a d from the character that was in the original movie. And then the second movie he's you know, kind of been brought down from that. It's like a little bit of a roller coaster. The third. All I can say is that I'm okay, and I'll let me just give you the landscape of why. I mean what I might have thought. I thought one of the great things about the original book was that he had this incredibly operatic death is kind of like wooly, wonderful kind of coming around, you know. It was a really three dimensional park. Yeah, like yes, And I thought, wow, that would be great. And then of course that never happened, and I thought, well, that happened in will it happen in the first one? Will that happening the second one? And and so I'm not saying that does or doesn't happen. I'm just saying I thought that would be really one of the great things. But there are other great things too that could happen. You can imagine what they are, like Bryce Dallas running in a heel again. We want to see Bryce Dallas running in the heels again. That's that's our big thing in I can't tell you. I'm not going to comment about that, but yes, I totally understand that is Lawa is Laura during in a ponytail salmon buttoned down? Maybe it is samon a hat. No, well, okay, they're they're's sucking up. No, I can't even hardly remember. This is what the gaze one raptors are chasing you, Laura and Bryce Dallas, and we're all of heels, and everyone's in heels, and everyone's wearing all salmon like salmon button down but also salmon like sort of cool lots really because cool like salmon crispy, And maybe Laura's is tied at the way at crop midriff, Yes, exactly exactly, and we go back to Bryce Dallas' original Jurassic World hair, which is what we call the chop. So we need to go back to the chop, and they all, you all need to be in heels. You get absolutely I'm not sure what the death is in the book, but you get ripped apart, and it's it's it's iconography. It's iconography the way that you die. Yeah. Well, because this interior salmon matches the exterior sound Yeah, yes, exactly exactly ripped. Yeah, and it's it's it's gorgeous, it's art. It transcends. And then at the end, Bryce Dallas and Laura have to fight the raptors. That's what I think I want to happen with this with this. Yes, they because they look at each other and they say, they look at each other, and this is what the script writers wrote. Bryce Dallas looks at Laura and she says girl power. And then they fight and they went exactly and they went. Of course, they knock them out, and the t Rex comes in and then looks at them and he turns the other way and runs the other way. He says, I'm not messing with that with those ladies, and for for for Henry to die after six movies six I'm miscounting her technically four, but I know it's technically six. But actually I don't count for two the ones that I'm not in Lost World. No, that is that is like, that is a big deal for this man to survive the course of this story and to be ripped apart in Salmon at the end, acting as the bridge between the generations of you have Bryce who is Who's new? Laura who's from the He's from the old school, and then you have you have b d who is who? Who? Who is a connective tissue? Remember the dinosaurs wouldn't even be there without him, that we would not be there without him. Yes, and well the thing is what I will My response to that is, if you can imagine the rollercoaster of it. I mean, he's headed towards some thing and this first at this arrogance in the first this kind of like I create or energy, and then this whole kind of being brought down. A little something needs to happen in the third thing. I'm not going to tell you what it is, but it could be related to the connection back to the original material, which is why you know, yeah, I mean, you know, his attitude of his attitude about you guys are so funny. We are getting it out where he's coming from this as this person. But I'm not gonna say anything because I don't want to miss lead or you know they say, is gold bloom in this last one? Yes, Oh my god. Three of them are hilarious. They're they're they're they're great together. Who you're talking about, Laura, Sam and Jeff. One of the icons of Lost Coach is Bryce Dallas. What is Bryce Dallas? Like? Incredible? Like we love Bryce Dallas. Yes, he has an incredible sense of humor. She's she's totally um nothing but you know, like that kind of real, there's no pretense or anything. She's extremely smart. She was the spearhead and the UM took a huge leadership role in the um. What's the word going into production in this movie, it's the early part of the pandemic really, So she's the one that got us all together and said, Okay, this is what I've found out so far about what's possible, and this is what I'm saying to production about what we want because we can't do this without absolute absolute precautions and protocols that have to be in place, and so that, you know, because they wanted they were proposing that we would go into production, back into profit because the movie was shooting in January and February and then shut down like everything else. And then they came to us like in May or something and wanted us to shoot in June. And she said, I I said, I can't picture that at all. I mean I was I wasn't even leaving getting out of bed, and and and so she was the one that got We eventually went back in the end of July, I think it was, and which was which seemed really fast, but it was because all of this stuff had been put into place. They really bend over backwards to get this movie finished. They wanted it done by a certain date. That was their first motivation. But then there what quickly overtook that was this desire for it to be done properly because it was the first movie to go back into production. Yeah, y'all were back really early. I remember seeing like Laura Durn's Instagram because it was like a huge deal when she posted that she was on set. Of course her Laura Durn, and it being Durassic Park. I remember it felt early. I was like, wow, it feels like in America, this could not happen. That's right, that's right. And so but that's on topic. That is the answer to the question about what's Bryce like. I mean, she has this real energy and super intelligence when it comes to laying out all the facts and compiling it, and then she has people skills to bring people together and get them to want to um, yeah, to do it and to be you know, she was a really great team leader. That's skilled. That's that's wonderful. That's wonderful to hear it. We love hearing it. I Oh, that was it was this. This was of course the uh third, really the fourth time that I worked with her, because I did three of these movies with her, But then I went in nineteen and twenty three, I did Our Town with her at the theater in sag Harbor, and I played her father. You were Bryce's dad, Yes, I was Bryce's dad in that production of Our Time. So that was when I first kind of really fell for her because she was so she was she was also just like out of school, you know, she was really young and fresh and yeah, yeah, she was in E two, W this photos of her in the hallway not playing the family card at all, and well not she never does that. But but um, you know then when you think some kids might she she certainly didn't do that. I love to hear it. I have a quest been I mean, we're on the topic of theater. I have a specific question to ask about Pacific Overtures. I because I think it's really fascinating that it is this. It's a Sondheim show that is like, probably is this fair to say b d like the least produced Sondheims share because because because because of so many reasons, there's a lot of production demands. Um. And in terms of the casting, it demands a big full cast of Asian dancers, singers, actors, what have you to recreate some like kabuki presentation. Um. And it's just it's just a very it's a very layered show. And so I feel like it both like is inspiring and it's a little bit sad that it is a show that like no one really that no one really gets, even even the most like even the biggest time free Yeah, it's like the one that people don't really like. They don't really engage with. And it's got some of the most beautiful music in it and some of the most intelligent material and some of the most spectacular everything. It's it's a great it's a really interesting and it's certainly interesting to study. But it is so this is such a rich conversation to have, Like it's got so many layers to it. I mean, it is, let's call it what it is, a show written by two brilliant white guys about this very Japanese you know, it was it was a it was a bit of a folly for them, or kind of an experience. The way I look at it now looking back, I used to be absolutely just in love with it from top to about, you know, like it could do no wrong. But as I've gotten older and it kind of evaluated, well, what is it? What is appropriation? And what does it mean to me? And when is it really you know, if if I'm applying all my rules of appropriation, Pacific Overtures is in many ways like the Rogers and Eberstein shows of the of the of the fifties and sixties appropriation and and it just so happens that all of these shows, I'd say, I'd say the King and I and and and Flower Drum Song and and and this show, Pacific Overtures have an integrity to them that allows their appropriation to be acceptable to us for the most part. And and and so this was that and and Pacific Overtures is a show which has such kind of ambitious, intelligent um um aspirations that um, the idea of it being appropriation is really never discussed because um, it's such an interesting and wonderful and beautiful show, and because it gave us a lot of jobs, and because it put us you know, we did the show. We h. But this is what I want to ask, is that, like, what was it like working on that show? And to be because I I am like naively have until literally we did this thing over the summer. Matt and I were both involved and Beats project songs from I made bed song cycle that he put out in that that was really fun, fun, so fun. Um. But we were on a zoom call Beauty with like all these all these other actors and I and I had the terrible, terrible thought, Wow, it's so incredible that there are so many Asian like Broadway performance I was definitely like I had I had no business being there, but I was like, there's so many fantastic Asian and can happen to be gay men, gay men who were who were who were just these huge talents. And and when I when I think about Pacific Overtures, I go, man, like, it must have been a trip to like be part be a part of that orders to have any awareness of it, and think wow, like you were led to believe that there's a dearth of this kind of performer, of these kinds of people who are capable of putting on this kind of show, a show that demands so much from its performers. And I'm like, it really fucking I don't know. It bumps me out when I think, I mean, now, it's like we we we know this to be true, but like I mean, I really and this, I think this is like this, this moves beyond like any like cursory discussion about representation. I'm just thinking, like even even like even now and go, wow, I didn't realize we're all out here, do you know what I'm saying? Well, yeah, you were, you yourself had that experience being an Asian American person was separate from I mean, you actually had that AHA moment which surprised you and disappointed you at the same time. And for Nora, no no, just while you you were you were having an AHA moment that was was kind of great but also kind of sad at the same time. And and and and it hadn't occurred to you in the same way. Right, it's snuck up on you. I guess that's what I mean. And and and to me, it's there's all these different perspectives about representation and appropriation and all that. And one of them is the observance of history as it's playing out or or or the situation in the world as it's playing out. And then another thing which can be very different is how you feel about it or what your involvement or what you're overlapping with it is. Pacific Overtures was two thousand four four. Oh yeah, I guess it was two. That's episode was after I met Bryce, and it was um that those are your time. By the way, for me, there's for me, there's before Bryce and after Bryce as well. When I first saw the Help, but it was it was it was two thousand four and the original production was in nineteen seventy nineteen seventies six and UM. Then UM between that in nine two or so was Miss Saigon, and Miss Saigon plays this huge role in our timeline for going on UM kind of creating a conversation about the casting of Asian people in general, and after that say what you will about that conversation. There was a change in the way that we were taken seriously as musical theater performers, broadway performers, and a lot of jobs came from the many years that Miss Saigon ran and allowed us in many ways, not the only reason, but allowed us to establish UM a community of actors in New York who were a musical theater performers that continues to grow and be nurtured and to um strength in itself. And you realize throughout the course of this how much the experience of doing what you're doing has to do with the building of that community. You yourself are you know, in a in a situation where people say, well, how how come this has taken so a long? How come this is taken so long that there isn't another There hasn't been a person Asian person on SNL for ever ever there has been, and the default was always well, they just aren't any I mean, we just don't do that. We're not funny. And and the actually, the actual real answer is because we don't have a building block process or developmental process, or an educational process or an experiential process that leads us there and and safely gets delivers us there, so that the ultimate inevitability of it, it happens naturally. And and that's very like, that's a lot of things that need to be fixed in order for the world to be a better place. You know, it's like a lot of stuff that happens in and creates a situation that is easily written off as a talent issue or a or whatever. I mean. There's also the issue, Yes, there's an issue of of our relationship to our parents and what what happens to our relationships with them when we either come out or decide that we're going to tell them that we're going to be actors. Yeah, and then and then you and I have done both, yes, and it's it's they're similar reactions. They're similar reactions, and they're similar yeah, similar fears and and all of that, and it's there is not to be super general, but there's a cultural aspect to why certain generation of Asian American UH parents are are a little more controlling with their kids about what their future is sure, And so that's all part of swirling around in this whole thing. And then you have a show like Pacific Overtures, which creates opportunities. UM Missigan also creates opportunities, and there's a gratefulness to them that you sometimes have to kind of remind yourself, is is not the only you know that, that's not the only answers on the start to everything? Is someone else creating enough to the indebtedness? Yes, the indebtedness is not something that UM is. It should be a fixture and and and ore. And then the way that we think about things like I this is the whole chapter in Cathy Parker. It's the last chapter in essay in Kathy Park's book, which is like this feeling of indebtedness that it's like, well, I I should be grateful to be here is kind of it's a weird mental trap. But I I love what you're saying about this community building because I feel like I'm about to make a statement about you, about about about your beginnings, which I know, which which what which is? I mean you you have built this, You've built community your entire career. But also I feel like that has been informed by the fact that you started I mean, you started out doing in Butterfly, which was written by an ancient person like this, this is it. I don't know, like that is the perfect example of it being a self contained thing. That's right, that's the that's one of the more graceful ways to achieve what we are, what we what one can achieve is through self generation. You know. This is why songs from an On bade bead. That thing that you guys did with me that last summer, it was important to me because it was self generated, and it because it allowed me to express my point of view from mice but without any filter of anyone else's input. And and that is important for us to have a kind of purity to um the journey of getting where we are trying to get um. And yes that I don't know. I didn't even to interrupt, but that is what it was. It was an experience with an Asian American writer. I had never had such an experience before. It was a very rare thing and also was a It was a play that went to Broadway written by an Asian person. I don't think there are very many other examples of such a thing, which is amazing when you think about how well Broadway is doing. Now, Oh, I guess what's her name? You wrote? Um? Straight right men? Yeah, young jean Lee, Young jan Lee. And there are, um, surely others, but the fact that it's it's not that easy to kind of list them, and they're an example of what we're talking about. And my question is like, were you out your entire career or did that was that something that was later? And I also wanted to know if you being gay influenced your character on Lauren Order also being gay, or was that just like happenstance. It was kind of it was you know, I still don't know. I think it for me, to be quite honest, I felt that was really convenient and kind of like almost like not like I wouldn't call it jumping the shark, but I would say I had been on the show for eleven years, and it's goes to show you how thinn the writing was for the character that I was playing. Yeah, this was never discussed until this moment, and that they felt comfortable just lobbing it out there to serve a plot point or a argument that was happening in the Yeah, and it was your character being offended at the insinua. Like it was like a thing of like there were there was like some sort of insinuation that like there was like a pedophile on the show they were dealing with, and it was it was really it was weird. It was it felt a little jammed in there, but but I remember it being an example of representation. Like I remember at that time everyone was talking about like what what like when it was it was like, I guess what would you call it turn of the century, like around two thousand ish where we started to see well, I'm just saying in general, we started to see more gay characters. And so I remember watching something on TV that was about representation and they were flashing through like the I don't know seven or eight gay characters on TV, and yours was one of them. And I was like, Oh, that's so funny that they include that, because that's a that's like a very very tertiary character on that show, and yet they're ticking it off as a way to pat themselves on the back in terms of representation, And I just thought that was so um that that is how I felt about it, And I also I did feel that that was it was fine for me. I just didn't think it was something to brag about. Absolutely did not think it was something to brag. But I didn't think it was unhealthy. But I did not think it was the cure to anything or or you know, like any great example of any kind of wonderfully generous thing um at that point. And but I was also uh really almost bitter or or sensitive about the fact that I, you know, that's to be super honest why I left the show and to begin with, because the part just didn't ever um sing to me at all. It was just always kind of um. Something that the people really liked about the character was that he never changed and he always gave you exactly what you wanted. But for me, it was not particularly interesting. And so for them to have thrown that and try to right at the end and to go, yeah, that's great, right right, like it was kind of like, oh, yeah, no, that's not what I meant. Really, that's not acting. That's me saying a line you wrote for you and your show. That's not a that's that's not a way to explore the character serving some ulterior some ulterior purpose. I think, yeah, yeah, but again I was thinking, like, not only you want to are you on a loop on like in Universal Studios Hollywood, but like probably somewhere at all times there is a Lauren utter Spu playing. So I'm sure the checks don't hurt. Yeah, they don't they And I was I was lucky that I got on the residual um heart before it changed. It changed drastically in the beginning of early two thousand's and um uh so that has been good. I mean it does. It doesn't get bigger, it gets smaller as it goes along. But it has been really helpful to me. I think it's time to ask the question. Yes, it's been sustaining, it's it's time to ask the question. And that question is um sort of the central question beauty of lost culture is this, which is what was the culture that made you? Say? Culture was for you? This is defining pop culture that you feel, in looking back on your life made you the person that you are in some way. And when you say the culture, you mean the object of culture or the event of culture, or just it can be as it can be as broad or as specific as you want. It can be like the town you lived, It can be like growing up in San Francisco, or it can be like you know this this thing that I experienced once, This is what part this is what makes the question beautiful nature of whatever you're gonna say. I'm just I think, you know, as if this was therapy, which it is not. Unlike um, I want to go with the first thing that pops into my mind and just follow it where it should go. Right, that's the actor's impulse. Yes, that for the first thing that comes to mind is that time period when Pacific Overtures came out. It was also the same year that A chorus line came out. The chorus line came out when I was fifteen or sixteen years old. I had been in one or two musicals, and I was hooked on the experience of being in the musical theater and began this weird, long process of thinking about doing it or you know, is this is I mean, it was a long process because I didn't dream of it for quite a long time. I just liked doing it. But at some point I think, and I think to this day, even there are not a rent a chorus line, a very few national Hamilton's certainly national news Broadway musicals, Broadway musicals that became national news or that became things that people knew, And then there was a lot more touring than of Course. Line certainly toured for many many decades after that, so there was an understanding of it. But the one thing that was a real UM moment was the star of UM, or arguably the star of of of Course Line, Donoma Chickne, was on the cover of Newsweek magazine. And I remember seeing that woman on the cover of Newsweek magazine and thinking, Wow, this is this isn't just like some play off in the you know, off way far I lived and I grew up in San Francisco, and I had an awareness of the impact of the particular show on to be dramatic the world UM, and that there was a shifting in the medium that I was not sophisticated enough to yet to understand or appreciate or uh uh grasp, which is that Michael Bennett, the kind of legendary UM director of that production, UM was changing the form and kind of turning it in and it and it and it reached people in a different way, and there was they were contemporary issues in the play you know, of course now least very quaint, but but at the time there were people coming out on stage and people you know, touching their tips and stuff, and and you went, oh, wow, this is like real life kind of theater that's also a musical, that um uh, it's also still kind of oddly family entertainment, and that um, I wanted to be in that business. I mean, I just I knew somehow at a very early age that I wanted to create theater or that I wanted to be a theater actor. Um And I wasn't sure how or what manifestation and were it would take me. I was lucky enough and when I was in high school to have a really great relationship with a high school drama teacher who really just opened the doors for me and in my own mind, you know, and kind of showed me that there were these tremendous possibilities. So at that time and I and then subsequently course line played a huge role in my in my recurring theme in my life. Um. I certainly saw it every time it came to town, and it came to town many times. And then I got a job after high school as a um An Usher at the theater where it also came, and I saw it maybe a hundred times. I watched it every night. I memorized it. I mean, it was, it plays, It's a show that play. And now I look back on it and I think, wow, gee, it's not as good as I remember it to be. You know. I actually have a kind of a come to you know moment where I think, let me evaluate it now as a growing up and a and a writer and whatever. And it's still wonder fall and I still have these wonderful, fond memories of it, but I have a different critical eye towards it. And and were you ever in it? Was in it? Yes? Do you know about this? No? No, no, no, this is all new to I was in it, but I was in it in a really powerful way. I was in the only production of it at East West Players in l A. The It was an all Asian cast, of course long and it's all people. That are many people that I still know now and and and and are and and there was that same kind of experience later, many years later, that I had with the cast of Pacific Overtures, which is and glowing. You might not ever have we may not not yet have had this experience, which is well, the zoom was the experience of being in a show with a bunch of other Asian people and without even effortlessly there's this kind of shorthand and this this sense of of closeness to one another because we all have a very similar kind of pain, really, and and that that is just a layer of the working experience. That's really really I wish this on anybody. Just between the breaking of bread and the rehearsal process and and the kind of looking out for each other and everything, there's a real sense of of understanding each other. That was the first time I had it when I was in chorus line at East West, and then I had it again in Pacific Overtures in two four, like you said, and and that's a really oh memorable color of experience. I want to put a pin in chorus line. But yeah, just just the only fassimile of that that I have ever had was I've told you this right right beat like that, the shooting that scene. I was in one scene of the pilot for Nora, but shooting that scene, I remember leaving that leaving that day and being like, wow, we talked about wood ears. In between takes, we talked about we talked about like I was like, what are your mustionoms. I was like, that's never happened to me before. You mentioned that when you came from shooting it, that it was that it had an impact on you. I remember that day and I was like, and I said, and I like said out loud, and this this sounds this sounds weird. But I was like, this is what white people must feel all the time. I'm like, this is I was like, I've never and then I looked at the call I was like, oh, look, and like the top four people on the call sheet. I was like, I've never played someone's family member, um, the lead person, the lead the leads family member. I'm like, this is all wild. And granted I only I had only been like a day player and the stuff that I had done in the past and prior to that, but like, and even now it's something that like is incredibly rare. Yes, I mean even now for me it's it's there's still I mean, I've never had a relationship with anyone and that you said that nor was your first time dating someone in and then you're you're dating Jennifer Usito. I love from you know, zero loser to like the you know, the luckiest person in the world. Yeah, you're too. Hotties getting together on Jesus. Wait, do you see the crazyness that ensues in season two? It's really Can we say that I'm having a lot of fun already this season too? Can we say that? Okay, the vibe is so good. It is it is people say this all the time and it gets boring. That is a really very good crew, it is. Yes, their energy is very good and it's very conducive to comedy because you know how comedy can be just like a wet you know, you can get like closed down by some moment that happens off, you know, between takes, and then you're dry or you can't can't do what you're supposed to do. But this is very upbeat, it's very very professional, and it just works for me. I really like these people. Yeah, Nora was making me laugh. There's if there's if there's a gag ril, it's gonna be a good one. Yeah, just just because of me and Nora. Just there's always got to be a gag ril. It's a real culture. It's really Culdron number ninety one. There's always always people want to see the gags. People want to see laughing. They want to see him laugh, you know, like I feel that the people want to see Bowen laugh. Can I ask you, what do you like working with Bowen? Because he can become challenging. You're putting me on the spot. We haven't really done it that, No, we haven't. We had that one scene, the Woodrior scene that was really are one like moment where we had went back and forth a few times. Really, you know, we haven't had that much. We had to be sat at the table for that other scene, which that that other scene. I was so I was so out of it that and I remember not I was remember going home that day shooting that kitchen scene and being like, I really fucked. I funked up in front of Laura, you know. I was like, he's always like that. No, no, no, but like it was a mood you were in, though, it was a mood I was in, and I really felt because at that point, at that point, we were just beginning to like get to know each other. And I was and I still had and this is still probably a little present, but I'm like man, there's something about there's something about me like acting opposite b D that like is really tripping me up just because it's him, you know, just because this is someone who means all of these things. Um, but anyway, yes, no need for that. I mean, look, it's really and it was really I mean we were still getting to know each other and all of that stuff. So I understand that it's a nerve wracking whenever you start any project, let alone something where like and and I mean it is true like Bowen is sent expressing like he he you are BD one. I mean like it's and also like you know, Aquafina is like she was such a huge is such a huge deal. Like so I get like feeling like, oh God, like I just just shot up out and I left a couple of days like being like, well, I hope that was good. Because especially we come from we come from live comedy and become and as you know, coming from theater, you're used to a reaction and that reaction sustaining you going forward. And so when you act for the camera, um, it's obviously different because you have to move on. And I did a little tiny guest thing on the first season of Nora, And that was something I remembered about. It was like it felt like it was professional and moving, but also that it was loose enough where the comedy could happen and it but like you were given a take for you you know what I mean? You know what I mean, like and that's important, Like what you're saying with comedy, it's it's it's rare to get that on the first take because often the people that are performing in the comedy on camera are people that you know, maybe they're maybe they do come from live performance, maybe their cast because they are a big old fucking ham and it's gonna take a take or two to get it. Man improvised a line, um and Nora. Uh. The most famous person in my phone is a tie between Hillary Clinton and Billie Island. It did they get in? They kept they keep that, they did keep that at And then that's that's Matt Rodgers outleb. Well, before we were before, because before we were talking about Nora, I just want to say, you're you're directing an episode. He's directing an episode, which is mind blowing to me and also like a dream come true for me, and it's everything that I ever wanted and it's really great and it's just started today. Is all the kind of pre production and stuff. Um, and you know, it's a little crazy because I'm in this episode that's being shot while I'm doing the pre production, and then when we get into actually shooting the episode i'm directing, I'm also in that. So I'm having that that what I would call the John Camera Mitchell experience. And who is he's you know, well that might be something different experience depend you're talking about, but yeah, so I'm really into it and I'm great, you know, really really just so happy that I was asked and I was. It's a lot of fun and and these episodes, I think all of them, but this particular one, I really really like it. So it's it's going to be easy to direct it. So that will be nice, except that Bones not in it, which is not good for me. Can I tell you my I think I explicitly said to the to the EPs, They're like, what do you what do you want Damn to do season two? I was like, I just want Edmund and Wally interaction. I was like, I want scenes with Bradley Darryl Wong. And that shows how much they listened to you. I guess they did listen to no nobody. He's a nobody on set whatever said the same thing. I want the same thing. I think that would be fun. But let's just hope that it's not over yet, you know. I think I think the good things are in store. Yes, not God, Jesus, little Jesus. Um. Okay, should we close the loop on this chorus line? Yeah? I want to hear. I want to hear your question. Sorry, I just had to. I had to bring up the directing thing because I was so excited. Of course, oh my gosh, of course, favorite song, like is it like what I did for a lot like like that? I feel like I gotta admit I don't know know mine, My mine is Mine is Music in the Mirror and the check. I mean, have you ever seen Jane Karkowski's version of that on Ally mcbeel. A lot of gays out there don't know that Jane Karkowski sang Music in the Mirror on Alan. She did, and you can YouTube it, and she's stunning in and she gives you the whole dance number and she fucking belts the end and it's great. But I think that's my favorite number, What I Did for Love Us a close second. Yeah, she does the whole number. Wow. No, I don't, I mean, I'm not really I don't know if they're maybe is there any particular song that really is, you know, exemplifies my affection for sure. It was a whole kind of experience. I just I mean, I mean being just kind of like, I don't know what how to call it, like impressed or or my breath was slightly taken away by the fact that there was no set and there was just this black stage with numbers on it, and it just was like so bold at that time to just not have a set and and and and all of that stuff. And I also had what appeared to be at the time a really great um quick change at the very end of the show, where everybody goes from dance close to these like fancy costumes and there, you know, little things like that. And then there was there is a song about teenage angst and growing puberty, which is a really great song, which is a huge number, and I liked that, but and also was really into the lighting. The lighting was very geometric. If you sat in the balcony, you could see all of the shapes and hard angles and and colors that the fair and must have. The lighting designer used which was very not like a regular musical. It was very angular. It was suited the choreography. It created shapes and spaces and different times and all the kinds of different kinds of There was a kind of lots of different usages for it. That was really great. There was no set and so that the lightning became a huge part of the transformative quality of of the um. That element Wow, you gotta you also bow and you also have to listen to on Barbara streisand she did like a recent album which was like um she got like movie starts to come in and sing with her, and her and Hathaway and Daisy Ridley did Now at the Bell at It was really good. It was really good. And the feature at which is Barbara streisand talking about it is also really good because Barbara streisand talking about anything. Have you ever met Barbara? I don't think I've ever met Barbara. Well, we got I met a lot of people in passing or whatever, and but she's not one of them. That's what I felt like. I could ask you that and maybe I'd get a, Yes, you might, and out of anyone who's ever been on this show, you are the person that's most likely to have met Barbara, although Will Ferrell might have met Barbara. No, you know, I was at I know this is gonna sound supertentious, but I was at the same White How state dinner that Barbera. Wow, whose state dinner was that? Jugent Tao? And yeah it was the It was Jugent Tao at Obama's dinner from Fujin Town and I sat at Obama's table. Wow, did you have anything good to say? No? No, I'm joking. I was completely tongue tied. I mean, I never have that experience where I don't know, you know, where I usually sit down next to a stranger or whatever. This was the strangest experience. I brought my mother, she was my plus one date, and I said my mom to my mom, would going to the White House. And then we we got there and we were given our little fancy engraved thing with the table number twenty three, and we were like, great, we're walking to good number. And the people there it was like, you know, like um miss um, who was there? Michelle? Michelle and and and I'm one of who I meant was Michelle Kwan and oh that's fancy the architect, my uh Lynn and um, just people like that, you know. And and and so we're walking looking for the room and we're going with twenties three. I guess that's the room on the end, and we're going in there in twenties. I think it's that long table underneath the painting of Lincoln. And then we get there and like and we're looking at the names and the people at our table. It was my mother, me Michelle Barack built the Clintons, the Carters, what John Kerry, it was mayor Daily from Chicago. It was, um, it was. It was the strangest thing ever. I mean, I think they were trying to figure out who could kind of like bridge the gap or something. And my mother, who you know, might have been a part of it too. It just all was. It was the craziest thing, was wonderful. I mean, we were just to say we were sitting at the table with the with the Obama's, but Barbara Streisand was in another room. That's what I'm saying. It's so weird, like she was often the bleachers they said at Barbara tonight, we have right, So, so what is is conversation very casual? They're like, are they all like, hey girl, do you see this and the news? Like what do you think of Dancing with the stars? Are they kind of saying that kind of chatter? It is like that, But then it isn't It isn't you know. I mean I sat directly across from Michelle Obama and I I could not I couldn't think of anything that seemed worthy to discuss with her. And now I think of plenty of things that I could or would have said, but I was really like sitting there eating just kind of I sat next to Rosalind Carter. I was like talking to Rosaln Carter about their foundation and stuff like that, and oh, what is it that you're doing? And they've gone to Syria and you know, you know, and I'm like, what am I doing? You know, I'm on a TV show? Great, you know, like it's like they're going to Syria and he's building habitat for humanity houses and you know, running all that stuff. So I felt I felt decidedly unworthy. I was thrilled. My mother was there. My mother was chatting it up with John Kerry and mayor Daily. They got along great. She was sitting between John Kerry American. She was at that table because you're the closest thing we have to an Asian American president, and that is why you were there exactly. You hear that, Andrew Yang, and know your place there we go, stop grabbing bananas. You can't keep your hands to yourself and those bodegas, Andrew Yang, those bananas don't want nothing to do with you. Then when we left alone, before we move on to I don't think so, honey. I think I have a very important question to ask Bet Wong. Do you think Captain LEEH Shang was attracted to paying? I would like to think that he was. But I think this is a to you. This is up to you to say, you know. And I don't want to disappoint anyone, and I don't want to be a coward or anything like that. Oh but you know what, Okay, No, Fluidity is a big It's a very important thing to acknowledge. Fluit. He is is something. When we made the movie, fluidity was not a word. We didn't talk about liquidity. Now we have fluidity. Now we can watch Chang and his choices and his actions and see it through the lens of fluidity, and this whole idea that there's a there's a needle and it goes from one zero to a hundred and it's always. It doesn't have to be in one place or another. It can move. You can change your pronouns next the day one day and change the next day if you want, and and and and and that's that's good and should be the way it is. So in that case, I'm really I'm recalibrating my answer. Of course he was. Otherwise he wouldn't been doing all that. Yeah, why why would he Why what other reason would there be? Right? I mean, he's not, he's he's it's it's not. It's it's very binary to think that he was. But I did used to say, oh, no, come on, you guys, that's that's that. Don't go there. That's right, that's best. But but but you know, it does remind me of the music video that Bone was in. We we we texted a little bit about this that you and they got the Boner Bros. Video and that the whole, the whole notion of of that kind of thing that is really fluidity. I think it's like, can you do you have to say it's one thing or another. Can't you just say, well, there's this kind of inclination, but it doesn't mean I'm gay. Whatever, it doesn't. Why why can't people do that? They're they're really afraid to do that. They can't do it, so they have to write a song about it to kind of pat all. They're just comfort about it. And that's hilarious in its own right. To me. I'm still entertained by the song. But at the same time, I'm going, come on, you guys, come on. So so so we're talking about this sketch that was a pre tape sketch on us and l Um written by Back and Kyle and Frank Gillespie, and we'll spend We'll Stephen. It's a bachelor party in the woods and then um the strippers come, and then all the boys break out into a song about um, this is the highlight of their lives. That they're getting hard next to their friends, that they're getting boners, that they're getting boners next to their friends, and so funny when you just steal it, that's what it is. It's what it is. Together and b D and b D text me the first of all, I just can I just out b D is like you watch every week, you watch every week, and I watched a lot because of you. Oh come on, I do. I want to know what you're doing, and I want to be able to discuss it with you. Um. You know we're not that close. Let's just call you know, just pull the wool over. Not everyone in Hollywood is very close. Yeah, that's right, and and and but I do UM and I love it. I think it's a golden age for the show. I think you're in on it at a really good time as the wild age can by it. I certainly depended on it and in bad In and my family depended on the show in bad in hard times in this past year, um in a huge way. And during the whole Trumpet, the whole Trump administration, and and so there was a there is a huge um allegiance. I have to it. Actually, m M, that's nice. That's really nice to hear. So anyway, so, so so Bed text me the next day being like, I I talked to you about this boner video and I'm like, oh, like, what do you want to talk about? He was like, He's like were you were you basically saying, should I just pull up the we basically that the people who wrote it are repressing something or no, that's not what you mean. Well, what I was, I was kind of saying what I just said a minute or two ago, which is they see it in a very binary way, like I'm not gay, and so here's the irony of me getting a boner next to my Sure, the fact that he is there may or may not play a part in your boner. I mean your your friend, Yeah, your friend, the friend of the person singing whatever verse of the song. And and and it's okay, it's okay to see it that way, but it's very no pun intended hard for people to see it that way. They they need to know they're not gay. They need they absolutely need to know they're not gay so that they can tell whoever that it's and and and even if they had a kind of a fluid moment where they well, let's say they always you know, you hear about it this all the time, blame alcohol or something on their actions or choices. Even if they did that, it's still something that happened. And why did it happen? And what what did the out what role did the alcohol play. I think it's fascinating. I love I love thinking about it. And I think the proof in the putting of all of this is the way women regard this whole same issue. There are much completely different about it in many cases, if not to speak generally, but that you can have someone actually identify one way and then not identify that way anymore, and then identify that way again or have a moment of of fluidity. I just think there's there's blockage happening that does not need to happen. I'm not saying anything about any pretty particular on SNLT no no no, no, no, no, no, no no. But but the fact that they are so easily slip into that role of adopting that um posture is interesting to that the joke is so easily delivered through that like filter lens, while you know, through the filter of masculinity, where masculinity is basically like self harm. At this point, I feel like, I feel like, yes, and you want to think about women getting together like women. Women sinking up through periods is not like an ironic thing. It's just this thing that's like it's like, oh, isn't that beautiful? Yes, exactly exactly. That's exactly. That's a good example, I think, got it. I mean, I think that straight men should just do what gay men do, and once they get boners, they should just do what we do and just like fuck each other. Especially fabulous. It's fabulous. It's fabulous. I think it's fabulous. They should. I welcome any straight man that's around me and gets a boner. Don't be scared of it. I have it. I have yet to check off on my list hooking up with a straight guy, and I just got to do it before I die. Somebody. I think it will be. I don't think it'll be fantastic. I just think it will be something yes, and and something to remember or to talk about or too yeah, and then I write my sketch about it. This this all goes back to Lee shang Um who who felt must have felt something he did. He did paying is the only other male character to whom Lee shang shows affection. Well. Also, remember it was Mulan the whole time, but it was Mulan the whole time, so it didn't matter. There was obviously an attraction there and it didn't actually matter the matter the person. And I feel that in the new movie, the live action movie. It wasn't Lee Shang. It was like a different character that the US is a stand in, but he gay, and we'll leave it at that. They went there, Did they go there? No, they didn't go there, But they didn't need to because the longing looks in live action you can't get away with the sort of trickery of animation where it's just like, oh, he slides down the begin he's a little too close and it's like whoo whoo, whoop. I'm falling off the chair because I'm a little nervous to be close to you know. It's like, not gonna be like that on live action. It's this guy goes into the barracks, looks at Mail presenting Mulan, and I fux the ship out of him. And you can't tell me that there wasn't something there. And I almost feel like if they released Mulan now in the way that they did, with all the panic about gender and gender expression and like what is and isn't, it would be such a controversy now, like you know what I mean, Like I feel like it would be a harder selling now. Yes, I really do I think that that people conservative parents would be like fucking up the wall about it, you know what I mean? But I also think that that is what you just said, there's a perspective shift. I mean, you could see it that way. Is he seeing a man or a woman when he's sucking her, jim her slash him? What is he seeing? And what why? He doesn't even know himself? We can we know what we know from our experience. But that's what's so beautiful about it is it doesn't matter. It's it's it's the fact is it's it's in some ways neither here nor there. He she is neither one nor the other, and that's okay, And then it's okay for him to have whatever response that comes with that. Yeah, making a percentage, you know, deciding what percentage of desire he has for one or the other is not useful anymore. Really, I don't think how did you feel when they flew in Osmond to sing your part? Because I feel like that are you allowed to talk about that? Are okay? What's the relationship with Donnie? Yeah? I don't have any relationship with Donnie. I was told first of all, when I was kind of fired. You know, they didn't they didn't um they brought him in, and and any when one could just say any number of reasons why they brought him in, whether it was because they thought liked him better, or they thought they wanted somebody who who had you know, he has said, but the perfect Disney name. But I can't say that's the only reason I think they were. One of the things that they said, just sell it to me, to let me down easy, was well, you know, his singing voice sounds more like your singing voice than your singing voice. What does that mean. It means trickery, foolishness, betrayal, it means, it means it was I just thought. I just nodded and said, okay, I don't believe that for a damn second. I'm glad I was a part of any part of it. I really was, and stupid enough to say that that you believe it, you know what I mean, like I can see you're receiving that at the time, and being like, okay, that has to make sense. It's so dumb, and being like, wait a second, let's get down to business about this. About that? How about that? That is interesting? That is so funny. They said, your singing voice doesn't sound as much like you as Donniahsman. Yeah, I think I think there's some emotion to this recounting that I'm I'm I respect you sort of withholding and because I feel like you must have felt a certain way, but I don't, you don't. You don't have to tell us. He obviously felt a certain way. What what do you mean about about being about being fired from the song? Well as the singer, he still famously is the human voice, of course, but like, yeah, yeah, and I and I I didn't This was probably the first time in a big way where well, you know, not that it's not that not that interesting, but where I was forced to deal with something that was out of my control, okay, and and over my as a as a famously controlling person or a person who was always looking for control or gravitates towards want feeling like they needed it was real adjustment for me, like to go, oh, I don't really get it's nothing. I can't beg them. They're not going to change the shore, So okay, I guess I got to really like, uh just kind of like try to accept this, you know. And they did it to Mingna to right, they because Leah so Longa sang it, but it's ming not a singer. Maybe she maybe that was the thing where she's not I don't think she is, so she was probably not laboring. This is always the thing that is bumped me. I mean, I thought about this for decades at this point. You know, why didn't they let b D sing the Damn Song? Because, like, yeah, I think they I think maybe they didn't like the way I sang yet I don't know for sure, though. No, it's because they're scared of the Church of Latter day Saints and the Church of Latter day Saints was going to storm the ball if they didn't have their boy in it. Okay, that's really what it is. And that's that's that's all. That's how we're gonna They couldn't wait for them. They couldn't wait for their own princess. They couldn't wait for the Mormon princess. We're gonna get some, yeah, they for yeah, whatever that's going to be like Genie in the Lake or whatever. I don't know what it's going to be more Genie in the Lake. I don't know a bit, all right, I don't know Mormon culture, Like what are the things that they do, like casinos. What is it gonna be like a casinos a casino owner's daughter that wants to be an ice skater? Like, was that going to be the Mormon Disney princess? Yeah? Sure, Hans says. I think we'll get hate mail for not talking about sv We talked about SVU. We talked about SPU, Hans, So maybe you need to listen, okay, straight, is there more to say about it? You know? I know, okay, all right, unless you want to say to cut you out. I mean, it was very good to me and I was really thankful to be on it and it and it was perfect the way, exactly the way it was. People always want me to go back to it, and I'm not. I don't think that's gonna happen. Don't go back. Can you say three words to describe Marisca your reverend dedicated moral. We love our moral queen, We love an irreverend, We love an irreverent moral queen, dedicated as well. We can't forget you can ever get dedicated. Okay, So Bowen, is it time? It's time? This is I don't think so, honey, this is our one minute segment. I don't think that's right. After reads his text. No, I'm trying, you know. I know, I'm trying to pull up my stopwatch because I want to see my sixty seconds going by. Oh no, no, no, we'll hold a timer up. Don't worry. Matt and I are gonna go first. This is a true control king, and it's actually a frontrunner for the title of app control king because he wants control over the over the timer, but he know he doesn't know we got I don't want control over it. I want to make sure that I see it, so that I know, hope you're going to see it. Be DENA are similar in this way where we are self sufficient and not gets mistranslated for I didn't say domineering. All right, I think you both should dominate me. That's how I feel. Oh, this is I don't think Sony. This is our one minute segment. We take wo minute to rail against something in culture that's really getting under our skins, as it were. Yeah, I'll go first. I have something I've been thinking about this and it's something actually it's actually been lifelong. Okay, I love it. Wow, Oh god, I wish I could do like twenty of these. But oh one, on your twentieth time back, you'll have done money. This is Matt Rodgers. I don't think so, honey. His time starts now. I don't think so, honey. Wheel of Fortune this is stupid game. First of all, there's no skill involved. And even if there were, no one that they cast has an ounce of it. They spend the goddamn wheel. It lands on bankrupt eight out of ten times. It's so fucking boring. And then they look up at the wheel it says it's like g blank a T. The word is goat and they go I'd like to solve glass. It's like, so, what are you fucking talking about? Also, stop buying val idiots. You're losing money. Guess see see us in every word guess T. If you have a tea up there, mama, guess h if there's a cue, that's when you buy a You these idiots guessing are when it says p blank s s what is priss? Stop? They are fools. You don't need any skill involved. Jeopardy is the real game. They need to give a bigger wall roll. Pat say Jack sucks and I'd like to solve the puzzle. I don't think so. Money oh no, and that's one minute and you didn't solve it, right, that's not correct. Wow, that is brave and one of your best. I'm in trouble. I constantly watch a Wheel of Fortune and I'm like, after Jeopardy, you're gonna put on This is fucking It's like it's like watching a New York Times crossword puzzle and then watching kids play hop scotch. It's like, get the hell out of here. That that's those are the those are the those are the poles. After you loop up, you don't go play checkers, and Jeopardy is getting you looped up, and then you want to get fucked and then they give you Wheel of Fortune. That is a very interesting way to look at it. Listen, after Jeopardy, I'm loose and I'm thinking let's go, and then then they put no, never never, um never. That was brave, right, And I love this world in which the answers are four letter words when you would be blown away in fact, no, of course, no, I know where. I know exactly what you're talking about. It's a funny thing to YouTube, like Wheel of Fortune fails and see when when they really need to, it's really impossible to get it wrong, and they're like, I'd like to solve the puzzle Chicken Ran, and it's like, no, it was Chicken Run. And whenever Pat say, Jack is like, oh that sucks. You are really dumb. Yeah, So it is funny for that reason, but I think the game is stupid. The prizes are so small. They're winning no money. It's like they live with like twelve thousand dollars and they're like cool. And it's like the longest running show in the world. Vana White, the poor woman, she like does she like her life? Will never know? But one time we did. We did one time on the show explore what the inner life of we think Vana is, and we act actually quite dramatic. It actually lends itself well to a play b D. If you want to produce, I'm looking for rich material. Yeah, feeling for rich material. We've actually basically already scripted the whole Vana White play, so we'll be in wait. Honestly, but really quickly. This is this isn't even a pitt. I just want to get beaties thoughts. I think it's a play that is game show, uh, set in the game show, or a game set in a game show, and that you're seeing the game show play out, but then there's like the staging of it is such that like there's like a backstage area in which like the politics between these two hopes, but like the dynamic between these two hosts is a little toxic and combative. Oh yes, So then you see the backstage antics and then then you see them on screen and see them covering up or being um kind of left like what they present to everyone else on stage back. But meanwhile, her life is crumbling, yes, yes, and he's toxic and he's toxic, and she's been she's been at this job for decades at this point, and her only job is to be silent, look pretty, and and if you think about it, the spinning of the wheel is actually really a good metaphor, because what what are they doing if noting the wheels every day? And that's what's so beautiful. And they never get anywhere, they're just nope, just because that's not what happened in a circle. It's actually really culture number thirteen. You never get anywhere, that's not what happens in a circle. No, all right, okay, I think it's time for me. I think it's time for Bo and Yang and look at Harry. Look at how hot he is. I mean, who could get away with that outfit? When we were watching that, I was going, Okay, that is success, man, Yeah, that is I don't know anybody that could wear that the way, the way genius look. And then he was covering up with these boas and I almost came in here and did I don't think so, honey, Harry's BoA's because I feel the boas or a hat on a hat, and you didn't feel No, I didn't feel that strong. I mean, he can really wear whatever he wants or or as little as he wants. Um but I did. I do love the opportunity to see his torso um So the boa was was in the way for me personally well, but there reveal exactly and we love that. Then the reveal was satisfying exactly, and that's theater. The road comes back to theater and so bowing, this is gonna be your time to do. I don't think so, honey. Can I say, you're backlit in a very like sort of like glamorous way right now like I'm front No, but you're you have backlighting too, and it's the aesthetic is very good so it's a little fairs, a little flare on the lens, on the lens, like a goddamn J. J. Abrams movie in the Zoom Star Trek. Oh my god, Oh my god, if if we're so lucky. All right, So this is Bowen Young's I don't think so, honey, and his time starts now, I don't think so honey. Construction, what are you doing. We have the buildings we need for the rest of humanity. And this is this is actually true. There is enough space for every person in this world to be housed to live in. And I'm not gonna make it about um, you know, a houseless situation. I'm saying, stop building things because it's actually ruining people's lives, mine included. Pay to have noise. And I know this is such a hackney New York complaint, but it's this, it's this enduring one for a reason because they think they can get away with it, because they think this is part of your life. Is that you have to put up with construction? Actually we don't. New York is fine the way it is building wise. We don't need any new developments. We don't need any new crazy, crazy buildings. I don't want to. I don't want all of these dorms for adults and finance bros specifically built around the city anymore dorms for adults. I don't think so, Honey. That was Bowen Yang's one minute. It's how, it's how, it's how they're marketing. It's how they're marketing these buildings to people. Now it's like, well, there's a pool table in the in the common area. It's like amenities, but it's not even amenities to me, are like washer and dryer and unit dish washer. It's like movie there's more. Yeah, that's right, Peloton Peloton room. There's a gym and a Peloton room. Now that's how it is. I'm afraid of doing this. I'm so afraid of doing this. You're why would you be afraid? Because you've done it many times and because I don't know, But can you can you handle this? This? This happens all the time, right, What happens all the time is that Matt and I do it and are all I don't think somebody is at this point are like c plus is throughout, Like the people who are novel at it are actually the ones who like are able to bring some electric active thing to and they come in and they hem and home. Meanwhile, I just did one on a forty year old game show. Bowen did it on construction. Neither of us are going to get anything done with this. Will a fortune is can not going anywhere. Cuomo has got his hands full. So it's like, what the hell would you have an opportunity to enact change right now? You really do? I don't think I'm going to enact change. I'm just going to be you know. I mean I have to. I have to be as honest as I can about a situation. You know. I try not to be angry about things. So here when I'm angry about something, I'm going to just talk about what I'm angry about. You know. Okay? Good? And this is this is your Here we go, Irks is a great way to put it perfect. This is beauty Wongs. I don't think so, honey. His time starts now. I don't think so, honey. I mean, I know that I'm late to this party, but crime scene vanishing at the Cecil Hotel is something that not abide. This is four hours or more of time that I will never ever ever get back in my life. I first should say watched as part of my presentation that the the the soul of Elisa Lamb must be spinning in her grave, and we must take a moment to say that this is all based on um, you know, this kind of commercialized, over hyped and um poorly produced production was her expense, and I find absolutely terrible there was to get even into the whole terrible other aspect of it, which is the problem of taking paying attention to too much people on the internet. That should stop right now. I don't think, yeah, you're actually very topical, very topical, because we've discussed on this very podcast that Bowen does not think so, honey, this that the only thing that the show unintentionally does well is to talk about the culture around crime now around intentionally unintentionally because it was such drivel, the way it was made garbage. I was so I'm really mad about it. I think it's you've already talked about this, I know, after people have already heard about it. No, we want to hear what you said. Well, well, I mean it was absolutely irresponsible and it was um manipulated, like kind of like taking facts and just trying to make a narrative out of them that didn't exist. You could see it. It was also stretched beyond Oh just be just stretched hopelessly stretched. Yes, And I was, I'm I'm I'm critical of things like this or things that are you know, if if something I feel like I get ahead of something or something like that. But I really felt this was intelligence insulting for most people. Do you feel do you feel that we have hit the breaking point with true crime where maybe it's just like we need we all need a break, because I feel like the reason why it was bad is because they were like, oh, we have an opportunity to do a true crime thing, like, let's do it without really thinking about the case, whether or not it was appropriate or like would fit. Yeah, I mean they yes, of course, yes, I think that. I mean I was. It was now on my you know, the algorithm on my my, my Netflix, all this true crime is coming up and it's all Netflix produced, and I'm over it. I'm like, well, I'm not watching any more of those because you you blew your credibility on that one. Um, you know there are other ones like if it wasn't you know, certain other shows that I've seen in other places when they produced them, Well, you wanted to see that content and and and that, but this really damaged me. I felt really abused. And this is very this is specific, but were you not heartbroken when they cut to the parents anytime they like showed the parents. I was just like, God, these two the Canadian Asian people who like immigrants, like who like have no idea about any of that, got on a plane or where whatever, however they got here and just got thrown into this horrible, horrible and and the show doesn't clearly they didn't want to be involved. They didn't attach themselves to it. There they've extricated themselves from it, and there's a reason for it, because it's it's not good and it wasn't going to serve them well or her their daughter. She was not served well. She was manipulated and turned into some kind of bizarre character, when in fact she had real challenges in her life, apparently if you were to believe everything you saw on the show. But and that's terrible too, that's like what are we doing? How who did that? And didn't think twice about it? You know, Like it takes a lot of people to make a show like this, and somebody didn't raise their hand and say, hey, what do you what are we actually trying to do here? Yeah, we've talked about it so much that I'm like, I hadn't I need to watch it, but everything we've said has been negative, So I guess I'm not going to watch them. I don't know. I could not recommend it less is that. Yeah? Yeah. I wouldn't say watching just for the research or like, oh so that we can talk about it. I would say it's a waste of time. Did you watch the vow? I did watch the vow and I watched the other one on see and I want I want to say, ever something to the readers. If you like me and Bowen got exhausted by the Vow, you gotta watch Seduced. Seduced is better. And you know who brought Seduced to my attention. Molly Shannon in the makeup trailer was like, you have to watch Seduce. Molly loves like all reality shows, like all all this stuff, and she was like, no, don't watch the vow, don't watch the vow. Watched Seduced, and I watched Seduced, and she was right. And I'm telling you every bead knows Seduced was better, would you agree? I think that there was something really um not right about the vow. I kind of got into it for the first part. I was really and I did like the way they the way they positioned the vow where they where. They led us into this whole thing by showing us what was great or what apparently it seemed like it was great about the program. And then you got pulled into it just the way everyone else did. Yes, and then this otherd Seduced is like a one eighty kind of weird. It's a fascinating, uh different perspective to have. The only thing that kind of bugs me about Seduced is that itself produced by the person who's trying to make their Proba Oxenberg. And that is like, there's long I said, there's all these long kind of her talking to the camera, right yeah, And I said to my husband, I said, there's nobody there in the room in here. She's just talking. She's sitting there her story. I did feel like the way that she was saying the lines, I was like, is she being directed badly or she just like she definitely isn't natural on screen presence. But it was really interesting, like Seduced was just four episodes. It was just like the facts, they have Keith Ranieri on camera saying things like, you know, kids actually want to be raping. He's literally saying things like this. Meanwhile, the vow only kind of alludes to that maybe or maybe it gets to it later. And I feel like there was an ego pump in the vow because it was people that were involved in it, that were part of that thing administratively, that felt like they really needed to dig themselves out of it with more and more and more and more and more. Meanwhile, Seduced, it's four episodes. They literally show him on camera being a monster, and you get a direct perspective from someone who was like truly victimized by it. So it's just I I preferred Seduced, And I say that to the readers as an audience member, and also at the end of the day, neither one's some great documentary film. No, if you're looking at for that, then don't watch either of them. To compare INDIAA Valerie Cherished inspired though, that that's that's the perfect intersection of culture that we talked about here on this Culture and a brilliant way to cap off an episode that has been our true joy. We thank you so much for coming on. You are I mean to quote Wendy Williams, he's got a point. He's got a point in icon and icon. He's all a legend and he is the moment. Now come on, come on now, it's beauty wong um some I love you so much. Someone who I don't know is and the girls say this now in in a facetious way, like that person is the blueprint. This is someone who is the blueprint knows that it's about community building, because they say before you don't think about building a career, thinking about building a community. This is this. Everything that Beaty does is about that at its at it's root, and it's so so so it's I hate saying this word, but it's so inspiring. But we do love to end every episode with a song. Who's we life is a willow in it bent? Right now? You did the next one? I don't well, he's gonna see he's gonna take a week to get off for good evermore, but for now, bye bye mhm