Just B with Bethenny FrankelActress, singer/songwriter, activist and drag queen, Peppermint joins Bethenny for a very personal discussion about her journey. Peppermint shares the details of having to come out twice, her unsuspecting role model and a very big detail that’s missing in reality TV.
O Loo.
Nice to meet you.
It's so great to meet you. Thank you so much for having me on.
Of course, well thank you for being here. Have you been how long have you been in New York since you were first in New York? Because I know you grew up in Hershey, Pennsylvania, and Wilmington, Delaware, which was we'll get into, but have you been in New York since you first came to New York.
I've been in New York since. I've been in New York since the nineties, since nineteen ninety eight, since college. So I grew up in those places and then came right after high school, which needed desperately to like find somewhere to go to be with the creatives, and New York.
Was a place to go to feel accepted. Yeah, I feel like even do you feel like even places like La or Miami still aren't as accepting as a place like New York. Is it the most accepting place in the world? Have you traveled the world?
You know, I have traveled a bunch, and I would say that New York is probably not the most accepting place in the world. For probably not. It's definitely extremely diverse and it's interesting even in places where there's diversity, sometimes it doesn't have all the other things you need. A lot of places that I've been to in the South and in the Midwest seem to be really accepting. And the biggest I guess signal of acceptance for me, for the most part is as a trans person, because right now that's a hot topic. What are the types of experiences that people are having? Now? People are having some bad experiences. But when I was sort of a little younger but able to travel, I realized I was having some good experiences in these places, and I was really puzzled. But then I looked a little bit deeper. It's not just that those places are just accepting. It's that there's less visibility of queer people, people who are out, whereas people in New York. Not everyone, of course, there's all kinds of people in New York and la and all the other places, but a lot of people in New York are generally more, at least in like the mainstream areas, sometimes more educated. They may have more exposure to different groups and things like that. And so you know, I remember watching a really early episode of the Real World back in the day Miami can't remember his name, one of the guys on there, but he was from New York and this was in nineteen ninety three or four, rural World, Miami, and I remember just having learned about the rainbow flag. Now I know that is like everybody knows about that now, but there was a moment in time where people would use the rainbow flag as sort of code. They would have a little sticker or a little piece of jewelry, and to most people it was just a rainbow. It didn't mean it had nothing to do with the queer community. But to people in the community, it was the signal that this place is LGBTQ friendly. And I remember watching an episode and all the other housemates and cast members were like, what's this rainbow on the door of this place? And the guy from New York was like, Oh, that means that they're gay friendly or LGBT friendly. And he wasn't a part of the community, but he was a business owner and kind of and was a New Yorker and he just knew, so like, that's kind of what I mean.
Okay, well, that's definitely interesting. And also New York is like a big cafeteria where like the Upper East Side is certainly not the same as going into the West Village, you know, Harlem or Chelsea or Five Eye, so you know, it could be a mean girl's cafeteria.
Too, exactly. So you know it's it is so wild. You go into you go over a few streets, and you're in a completely different area, different vibe.
You know, an acceptance level. If you're walking around westle Village, you're gonna have a different experience. And if you're walking on eighty, you know Carnegie, you know totally that's interesting. So what how big is your family?
Uh, they're kind of small. You know. My mom has four had four siblings. A couple of people have passed, but my mom grew up with four siblings and they all had most of them had kids, a couple of them didn't, and but like one or two. So like, you know, each generation is like five people.
And are you close with your are your parents alive? Are you close with them?
I'm close with my mom. Yeah, both my parents are alive. But I am close with my mom. Yeah, she's we're kind of close in age. And so people you say, when I was younger, people would just assume that we were when we were both when we were both younger, people would assume that we were siblings and not, you know, she wasn't.
My mother, And you talk about not you know, sort of stifling, not non conforming in high school. So how did that work? And when you know, what was your childhood like? Who somebody is is obviously their entire identity, but having to explain it and talk about it and also being an activist about it is not everybody. It's probably like a gift and a burden because you constantly have to explain yourself and explain your story it is.
It's both. It's both a gift and a burden, and something I'm dedicated to because I think it's really important because I want people to learn. I want to be able to connect with people. I want my other you know, siblings in the queer community to have a good experience, especially people who are younger who may come after me. And it also does feel like a bit of a job sometimes, and so just.
Being you is sometimes a job. Just being who you actually are like is just a job sometimes.
Yeah, it can feel like that, especially if being me allows me to connect with the things that I'm the most passionate about. Of course, there It's not like someone's forcing me to talk about trans rights or go to march and a thing. But I think that those things are really important, and you know, you're right. It's it's really interesting. Like right now, in the current political climate, it's a shame. I think the queer community and definitely people in the trans community are getting a bit of a bad rap from some people, and that means that we have to go out and like do all this extra labor to clean up after this sort of reputation that people are that some people, especially some elected officials, trying to spread these some of these elected officials, some of these politicians, some of these like you two and talking heads that for whatever reason find it very advantageous or even lucrative.
But your childhood, so what was that like as it pertains to who you are and not conforming?
It was actually pretty good, I would say, like by today's standards, it was probably middle of the road. Of course, I had some really tough experiences. I had, you know, bullies in school. I've experienced discrimination and different things like that, and I learned from those things and I think that they were although they're not what I would wish for anybody to have to go through, and certainly not necessarily what I would want to go through or choose to go through. It sometimes comes with the territory. So I found the lesson in a lot of those things. But I think by today's standards, my experience in general's middle of the road. My family was you know, you know, growing up in a black family in the nineties, there was a good chance that, well, my family was all like democrat like in terms of their political you know, associations, and so they were very I guess the best word would be like tolerant of everything across the board. Now that's we learned that tolerant is not the ideal because it doesn't necessarily make room for like a lot of understanding or really like have you know, a lot of caring and understanding. But it means that they weren't like constantly demonizing me. I have other friends who grew up in a really you know, extremely religious household or an extremely conservative household, and some of the things that their parents would say, for instance, would be would not really set the stage or be encouraging for them to share with their parents who they really are or how they really feel. And so I didn't have that experience, but it wasn't extreme progressive. I mean, I also know friends who whose parents said to them at a very young age, you can be anyone you want, and no matter who you love, it's fine. That wasn't my experience either. But my family understood from a really young age that I was very eccentric and sort of swishy and very flamboyant and femme, and I was able to find refuge very early on in the arts, in singing and choir and drama and acting and dance, and so my family was super supportive of the arts. So as long as I was in the arts, then anything I did was fine, you know what I mean. And they'd be like, oh, they're just creative. That was like their excuse for me.
The arts like kind of saved you in a way. If you didn't have that that you probably would have felt like you were on an island girl.
It's the truth. I mean, if there was if there was no if the arts wasn't present, which I mean, that would be a completely different world. But like the arts in schools specifically, because that's usually where I faced most of my social experiences as a kid, That's what you do, you socialize in school, So if you're going to meet a bully, it's either going to be in the neighborhood or another school or classmate or something. And so a lot of my experience is the negative experiences that I had around being teased for who I am and being queer were in school. And so in school, my refuge was definitely the arts art class, drama class, music class, where I was a I was in well, I was around other people who were also creative, uh and maybe also would eventually be queer or part of the trans community or whatever. But then also I was in a sort of safety and numbers space where sports wasn't the dominating activity where bullies would have felt out of place for the most part going into that sort of environment and.
So good at something. So being good at something in that space means you're thriving.
Yeah, And here's a shout out to anybody who has the power to vote for or support music education in schools. It's really important. I for until fifth grade, all from like all the way through my schooling until sixth grade, actually was able to enjoy playing the cello. And then suddenly I moved to a school where they didn't have music in school and that was gone forever, and so yeah, you know.
Yeah, and I'm friends with Ryan Murphy, and I have to shout out that show Glee, because it really did address everything and normalize and promote and celebrate and I think that was an important show for you know. I watched it with my daughter, and I loved watching it later, like during the pandemic, not when I was first airing, seeing every week them address something different, alcoholism, pregnancy, gay a beauty. Yeah, Like it really addressed in music was being popular for being in the you know, in the chorus, which in my growing up course for me, I was always in the chorus and I was in the plays. But like it wasn't cool. It wasn't cool to be you know at all. But I loved it. I loved being in the chorus. Interesting, how old were you when you came out?
I came out, like on a large scale, I came out twice, at least. First I came out as liking boys, and then I came out as trans and sort of that's just like the process that I, you know, followed. There are people who even don't and that's common for a lot of trans people. It's to like sort of step into your queerness first and then fine tune it, you know, because especially people my age or people who grew up in the nineties, there wasn't a lot of articulation about being by or pan sexual or trans or nuance nuance.
Yeah, chocolate or vanilla. There's not like.
Exactly it was like gay or straight? What are you? And so there was I'm not gay, I don't identify as gay, but that was like the closest thing I had, you know what I mean. Also like when I got check a box, Yeah, like by the same token. Like today, as a black trans woman, people that I idolize are you know a lot of people like Laverne Cox, who's very well known and she's obviously black and trans. So that's who I would point to today. But when I was growing up, there wasn't someone like Laverne Cox's visible in public on TV and in the public eye. So the closest thing I had at a certain at one moment in time was like Richard Simmons, who is not really you know what I mean.
You can't pick you know, is he because he never discussed it, is he gay? Is he straight? He's out exactly.
But he was obviously very flamboyant. He had all the characteristics that I would get teased for so and he was owning his power. He was he was definitely a person in control of his realm Ladies were like screaming and hollering like he was Michael Jackson, you know, like he had power, you know, And and I didn't.
Really an identity or like honesty, but he probably was fighting a ton too, but he got to be expressed himself exactly.
So that was the closest type of thing we had. So by that token, I couldn't really articulate I'm a trans woman back in the day interesting and so that So then later on when I learned more about it and realized and I found the art of drag, and I realized, oh there are there's more. This is more fine tune, and this feels more correct, and I was able to come out as trans. And then, but even for gay people, depending on the company you keep, sometimes you have to come out more than once to your friend group, to the people at work, to your family, and sometimes those are different phases in your life, you know, Like I realized, oh, you know that myself and another trans woman. Yes, we may face a lot of things. Or myself and another CIS woman like yourself. I'm we might face a lot of this, a lot of things that are similar in terms of discrimination, in terms of the barriers that we face, or different things.
What's ais woman?
Assist woman is a woman who's not trans, and you know that's that's it really is for the distinction.
Of of you know, I'm a woman, but we're different women.
We're different types of women. Yeah, I'm a trans woman and a woman who who I aligns with her gender at birth and never felt like anything was wrong or that she needed to change anything terms of her gender. Uh, would would be in the category of cist gender, and that is uh. There has been some controversy around that term. I think a lot of people who either don't understand it or want to further marginalize the trans community, you know, find issue with that word. Uh. It's not a slur. It is a word that's meant to clarify because we both have the experience of womanhood and even even there's uh, well, I will say this, we both have the experience of what it's like to be to grow up in a in a world, in a country that is dominant, dominated by men and the patriarchy, and we have the experience of being treated a certain way because of our proximity to femininity. You know, for you, that is probably natural you are a cists woman. Obviously, for me, it is natural for me to be fem and flamboyant. That's how I've always been. But uh, to come into my womanhood, I had to sort of take certain steps, and so that's really that distinction. But here we are and we both face a lot of the same things. But of course my blackness other parts of my identity. Obviously, my transness means that my route to that meant I had to take a different intersection, and at that intersection, I experience different things. At certain intersections there's red lights, and certain intersections there's green lights, and sometimes there's no stoplight at all, or sometimes there's a stop sign and a stoplight and a crossing guard and a railroad train track and yellow light.
You know, Well, I think words are really important, and I think and opposed me too, and black Lives Matter world and the pandemic gave people a lot of time to sit home and like think and discuss and there were a lot of there's a lot bubbling up. I think words you know, became a big thing because not everybody knew the right terms, and people are scared to speak.
The way that they're used really to tates how they're perceived. And so there was a moment in time. Yeah, there was a moment in time where the F word where honestly anything that became a mainstream word that everyone whether they were gay, straight, whoever they were, knew that word. At some point. However, the dominating part of society feels about that community, they're going to use that mainstream word as a weapon against that smaller group. So if you're a marginalized community and no one knows about you, then you can use different words. It's going to have less of an impact. But the minute people who like to discriminate understand how that word is used and how it associates you, they're going to use it to demonize you and say and so for a lot of people, you know, when there was a thing and there certainly still is a thing in terms of discrimination called gay bashing, where people who were queer we're getting beaten up, yes, being identified on the street, and a lot of times, the words that the maybe there were people who would just go up and beat somebody up and not say anything, but all so, those are the words that are associated with hate when they're getting beaten up, when they're getting discriminated against. And then the other part of it is there is a nuance with language. Like we said, back in the day, me and a bisexual woman and a gay man would have all been just called gay. Well, I think when we're when we're talking about visibility and acceptance and people who we didn't know so much about visibility, acceptance and education are things that are kind of constantly swirling around and with a certain group, a marginalized community, people who are discriminated against when we start to include them into you know, like, at one point in time, it was perfectly legal to fire someone if there if they were even suspected of being gay gay, right and so that was as recent as the nineties and so, and even in the two thousands, right and so. And I'm sure that there's that still could be happening to this day. Obviously, I think people think of that as illegal now, and we're trying to get those same protections for people in the trans community and But anyway, when this people in these in these groups who've been discriminated against in certain ways end up becoming more visible people who are friendly and accepting to those parts of the community. Oftentimes they adopt these words, but they have a little less information, but they're trying to be open minded. They're trying to make sure that they make everyone feel safe and included. But then, of course when the bigots come around and learn that word and.
Use it to write and weaponize it, so we got to change the work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. I get I get it. Are you in a relationship?
No, I love? Do you date?
No?
I'm not dating right now. Uh, there's someone who I'm in love with and we uh we're we're not together at the moment, but I hope we get back together again.
And is this person in the entertainment industry or are they like a civilian, like a business? Like what type of I'm not outing this person or whoever you're dating, but I just meant, like, what's that, what's your type?
He is not a he's a civilian, he's not in entertainment, And I don't I would be perfectly fine dating somebody in entertainment, but I do think that it's probably not what I want. He just came back into my life and expressed some stuff to me, and so there's the deeper conversation. We'll have to do a part too, because okay, I don't fully know, but he's he's a really accepting guy. He doesn't seem there are some men who deal with sort of a sense of shame because of not because they're it's just because they're inherently just ashamed of who they are, or that they're dating trans women, for instance. But it's I think it primarily has to do with what other people think about them when they find out.
Oh yeah, no, there's a whole layer. That's why I'm fascinated because I spoke to someone else about this, and it's interesting because this person was dating someone who had just was from New England and traditional, very traditional, very you know. It's it's people are attracted to the opposite a lot a lot of times, the opposite of like their constricting lives. So are you attracted to conservative men like you? Like?
What? That's really interesting? I I certainly have dated this person is somewhat conservative, like socially liberal, but maybe politically and financially, you know, like fiscally, you know, the whole thing. I do think, and it is interesting there does seem to be a pattern, Like you said, we're sort of opposites attracting in terms of that or.
There's what's the word, they're not repressed stifled like because.
You know, yeah, yeah, I think some people who are repressed are attracted to those who are who are more free. Perhaps, of course, I think that speaks to like what we really want is I think in the in the at the end of the day, a lot of people who are repressed or who've been sort of who need freedom, want freedom, So they're attracted to freedom and liberation.
Uh.
And for people like me who are maybe experiencing that right now, what I'm looking for is a sense of like sort of groundedness and not that you can't be grounded and liberated or free, but you know, people in terms of relationships, I think a lot of a lot of times people who are more conservative and more sort of straight laced have a closer connection to this is going to be a hot take, a looser relationship with business and capitalism and sort of the status quo and a mainstream sort of persona and identity that's more accepted. And for some people who've already found personally their identity, their truth, they have what they need, you know, personally, then being connected to that sort of stability can be attractive as well.
Well, right, you've dealt with a certain amount of turmoil, you may not be attracted to somebody who's dealing with a certain turmoil. Both houses can't be on fire at the same time. Like so nice to be, you know, like a rock to someone who's like grounded in their identity is attractive because sometimes you've had to battle with that, So that makes that makes sense, you know safe. So what do you think about how brands? Do you think brands have botched this up? Like bud Light and Target, and then it becomes this whole big thing, and then you have people saying negative things and was it were they was it the execution of these brands trying to do the right thing? And were they authentically doing the right thing or were they trying to check the box because of you know who who's watching and that they think that they're getting attention for doing the right thing. You know what I'm saying, is it grounded integrity or is it because we're checking boxes and then they're watching it because not authentic.
I think, just speaking generally, I do think that it's important for brands and and and large businesses to demonstrate and be accepting of of all different types of people. I think that uh, you know, we we as people in the queer community are here, we have been that it's not new, even though people are just finding out about it on their TikTok or something, We've been around, you know what I mean. And even though we didn't always have the words and we weren't always included, like, for instance, it was illegal for people to to be gay in public or at their job in the past, in the sixties, in the seventies, it was punishable by jail at certain times, it was punishable by being fired, and it was legal to discriminate at certain times. And so that doesn't say, hey, we want everybody to come out and tell us about it. Meant that people had to be more closeted and more secretive and you know, not share who they are. But it doesn't mean that they weren't there. It just meant that they weren't talking about it. Right now that we have more acceptance and people are feeling free to be who they are. What people want is to be included in not only at their place of work, but also in marketing and represented because representation matters. And so in order to do that, companies need to be inclusive in their advertising, in their casting on their TV shows and things like that. And they understand that now that there was a moment in time and I think that they didn't understand that, but now I do think they understand that. And up until twenty up until a five or six years ago, I think it was easy for companies to sort of sign I LO their inclusion. They'd be I know that they would place an ad on Super Bowl that was all about Macho Macho for the people who watched Super Bowl and for the people who are watching Housewives. If the gays watching Housewives, they'll do a Housewives version as well. And so like you didn't necessarily they didn't have They weren't getting caught sort of playing all sides of the fields or all sides of the fence.
It felt but it felt token, like a token ecoustic but it was token.
It was token. I believe it was token.
Right. But if brands are going to come and and and put that foot forward and market towards the trans community. You know, they better do it right because you want that to be mainstream. And so do you think that these brands do you think it was this It was just society not accepting it, or they botched the jaws, That's what I'm saying, all.
Of it, all of it, all of it. They their their decision to be inclusive and feature trans people was the right decision to do. The entire they did it with. The tension was right, the execution wasn't necessarily correct, and the after effect in terms of how they behaved and how they reacted, some.
Of them playing on the side laying it is going.
To be public backlash when you're dealing with a group of people who are currently discriminated against when they're when you're dealing with the part of the community who have more than five hundred anti trans laws and policies being passed in many states in like in eighteen states in our country. Of course, that means there's going to be people who react in a certain way and are like, I don't like to see that person here. And we saw that certainly.
It was billions for bad luck, like it was billions of time.
But we also saw that backlash with Disney, We saw that backlash with other people, and Disney obviously stood by It was a little bit late, but they did stand by the queer and the trans community in a way that but like didn't target necessarily didn't. And some of these brands they sort of they they they made a bold statement, but then took it back away and said, actually, no, we're not making a bold statement and that is where than making the bold statement.
Well, so that meant that they were trying to check a box. But it was bullshit, is what you're saying, Like, that's what I'm saying, Like they would, No, it's not bullshit.
They were trying to check the box and they should have checked the box. And they understand that that box is real. But what they realize is there's not just one box. There's a there for every box. There's an opposite box that also is important to them. And so it's like.
Trying to they were playing.
They had to playing, Yeah, we want we want, we want vegetarians and we want meat eaters, so we have to do a vegetarian ad and we do a meat eater ad. And the meat eater see the vegetarian ad, they're going to be angry. And if the vegetarians see the meat eaters ad, they're going to be angry. Before they were able to just again silo their their ads and market to a certain group. But now you can't because now if there's a person who's in this marginalized group, if the vegetarian has ten million followers, everyone's going to find out. You know what I mean.
Yeah, yeah, it's a very different it's a very different world. Interesting. Okay, So let's get to Traders, which you loved and were excited to do. And it was like someone they say, don't meet your idols or whatever. They say, like right, because they might disappoint So it was it sounds from what I read that it was a disappointing experience.
My experience was disappointing. I have to say, first, I still love the show. I am a huge fan of the show. I really support the show. I think it's a great a different type of kind of reality competition show that I think is interesting. I'm a horror fan, I'm I'm a mystery fan, and so I do love that. But my experience, and while I do think that they did a good job casting. I think that there was a few missed opportunities in their casting and also in the way that the show played out and the way that the show was sort of run, So that impacted my experience, right.
So it's more the production versus the cast the people.
Now, I think the people that were cast created my experience was it was just the entire thing I encountered someone who I had an experience that was sort of affected by sort of a mob mentality and the fact that I was a loaner on the show. And had I not been a loaner on the show than maybe my experience would have been different. For instance, in season one of the American version of Traders, aside from the fact that it was half reality stars and half civilians who had never done reality, there were I think eighteen people in that cast, and there were two out queer people of color. My season season two there were twenty one of us and more people and less out queer people. I was the only out queer person on the show. Obviously, Alan Cumming is the host, He's not a contestant, and so I didn't really have a lot of people that I could identify with, and that was this I would I realized that very quickly when people were like, oh my, like when all the housewives, it's worthy thing. All the house on the four Housewives were grouping up and they were talking about the housewives stuff. Everybody else you know, there's the gamers, people were saying. In this season, there was a lot of people who were in like you know, the Challenge and shows like that, were gathering and then it was just me in the middle.
You really felt like an outsider just.
For that because I was on Drag Race. There was no other people from my show, even if they even if drag Race wasn't about doing drag like, there was nobody else on the show that I shared the experience. So I was the only one. And people didn't really watch drag Race, and so they just kind of had their i think, first impressions and that's all they could go by, and they didn't really take the time to really get to know me. And so that that was all on the contestants and the cast and that.
Ever, did your skill in the game like that affected the game.
The effected of my gameplay if someone had made the decision the cast didn't cast themselves. So if someone had made the decision to put more than one of me on there, then that would have been allowed me to have more people to align with. And so that's why I'm saying production obviously had a hand and who got on the show. It's not like the casts made their own choice of casting themselves. And so that's where production I think could benefit when I say missed opportunity. It's beneficial to the rest of the world to see different types of people. It's beneficial to the viewing audience to understand that there are queer people, that there are trains people, and it's beneficial for people who the viewers to understand that there's more than one black person. There's more than one trans person that exists in this world. And we don't always have to go with the formula of twenty two white people and one black person, twenty two straight people and one queer person, Like why does that have to be twenty two white people and one Asian person or one Latin person only, Like can we have how different would the show look if it was twenty two black people and one white person. Everybody knows that that would be a different experience. So why can't it be half and half? Or why why can't we mix it up a little? Can there be two? You know?
Right right? You felt like it?
What?
Yeah, you felt like an outsider and you were at a disadvantage.
Yeah, I was an outsider. And the show relies on, as many shows do, first impressions, And so first impressions have a lot to do with what you already think. If you don't know someone who comes in and they're from another country or of a different race, and you don't really have a lot of experience with these types of people, or someone who's queer, or someone who's this or that, and you don't understand, you don't really connect with that, or you don't know much about that person and that individual you haven't had a chance to get to know them as a person, have a lot of conversation with them. You're going to have to go go by whatever you know about that group when you were growing up. You know what I mean. If I had a really terrible experience with a farmer when I was growing up, and and and it was a horrible experience, then the next time I meet a farmer, I'm going to think of that horrible experience and I'm going to treat them the way that I would treat them given that experience. Now, if I get to meet a new farmer who's completely different and I have a wonderful experience, then it can start to change. But if I vote that farmer out immediately because I'm like, oh I know farmers, I don't. I don't even know this person's name by then what are we learning? Right? Right?
Right? All right, right?
That?
But you're assuming that the show wants to you know, here's what's interesting. This is where the line is. You're assuming that the show wants to take on that responsibility, and it's funny because they don't. Right well, because and that's what you're trying to change or just that's what you're trying to discuss the line and the question is whether or not a reality show should reflect just reality like and then who's deciding. So let's say to take off Republicans, which is a big, big criticism by the way of Housewives that people and the powers that be will fire people because of their political views. I've heard that too many times that I'm sure it is true, and I've actually heard it from producers like, oh, this person, you know voted for Trump, and so they and they don't like their views, so they want to fire them from the show. It's a real thing. It's a real thing on several Housewives shows. Should a reality show reflect reality or should a reality show reflect what should be?
To answer that question, the answer to that question probably relies on what is your what is the impact that you want your show to make? Who do you want to watch a show? I agree, I want to accept the show, and what message do you want to send? Statistically, statistically for my situation, there's more queer people and black people. Definitely more queer people in terms of statistically and percentage wise in this country than than the odds of one out of twenty one. They're you know generally.
Oh yes, good, good point, and.
So that's less that's not reality. If we're going by like a cross section of who's out and who, you know, it's a lot more. It's actually, like, you know, two out of ten adults would identify as LGBT and so.
Well, the question is the responsibility falls on this multi billion dollar public company to do that. It's just interesting when you have like you know, say you have like one of the Housewi shows, the New York Housewives. Let's just say, and then you decide you're going to put the three Upper east Side white women and you're going to have three black women and one trans person on the show, when their initial mandate was that it has to be people that are really friends. So now it's not even like like Ramona and Ebony were not friends and this show tried to like put them together to be friends, and then the audience is like, wait, this isn't real. So those are interesting. Yeah, it's so nuanced, but yeah, but you show.
Yeah I was on show. It's not even friends, so so there's less of a reason for to kind of.
You know, no, yeah, you could cast anybody you want, but.
Even in the Housewives sort of uh examples. The key or the kicker is the business of it all. When when we're trying to make money, when we're trying to make money from the show with advertising and different things, then we needed to be as as appeal to as many people as possible. We want the Upper west Side, Upper east Side white women, but we also want people who are in Brooklyn who like we want everyone to watch it, and that's where where they have to figure out how they're going to balance it because they know that the people from Brooklyn, or the people from the South or the people from this aren't going to watch just one group that's not like them, and vice versa. The people from the Upper east Side are not necessarily watching a show about a bunch of black folks from Brooklyn, and so they have to find a way to balance it. And that's where it's maybe inauthentic, but you know, there are those pockets where it really does mix.
You know, I guess yes, no, and you have to So what is I never heard the term dead name?
Dead name is a term uh that's used by people in the queer community to uh two. Dead name refers to someone's a word or a name, a name that someone that is associated with someone previously in their past. And for for people who aren't queer, or who aren't in the trans community, or who that maybe to that term is new to it basically is the name that that person was given when they were younger, when their parents named them, for instance. But a lot of people change their names, and so so you know, for some people, being associated with their previous name can associate them with places and people and things that give them bad memories. For instance, someone was married and they had their abusive partner's name when they were married, they might want to whether they get married again or not, they might want to change that name, and they might not want to be referred to by that old name because it reminds them of that abusive partner a terrible time in their life, when they were depressed or when something was terrible going wrong. And it also may say to them it may if depending on the name, if that name is a well known name of an abuser, you might you're not going to want to keep that old name as a married person, because then other people will treat you differently and not for who you really are, you know what I mean. When you meet someone new in life, they tell you their name, and what do you do next? You call them that name. You don't dig and be like, well, let me go back. You don't like, you know, get a private investment. Really is her name really Sally? You don't do that for the average person. When Sally comes up to you and says I'm Sally, you call her Sally, you know. And so that's what we're trying to do. But unfortunately, there is an effort by some to expose trans people only, not married people who are formerly connected to an abusive person, not cis gender people who have decided to change their name for different reasons. But there's an effort to expose trans people and sort of communicate that trans people are perpetrators and are liars, and are sneaky and are trying to be deceptive, And so people are trying to connect that to the desire to not be associated with a name that's harmful, a name that reminds us of a really terrible time in our lives, and a name that doesn't reflect who we are.
Makes sense? Okay, So you're you act, you sing, you dance, Like, what's your primary passion and career?
Girl, I'm I'm I'm cursed with the passion of wanting to do knitting and singing and dancing and politics all at the same time, which is terrible for you know who you are?
Well, I think it's more terrible, is not. I think terrible is a terrible word for it. But I think, like for branding purposes, it's challenging because if you try to please everybody, you please nobody. You know what so so, so what is the base, like, what are you working on. But by the way, I'm I don't know how old you are. You're younger than I am, obviously, but I'm at a certain age where I really do exactly what I want to do. So I just was in Vancouver and did a Lifetime movie and I didn't have any reason to do it. It doesn't have anything to do with my brand. I did it because it was presented to me and it was different. But from like a let me say rand strategic perspective, if I were in my like thirties and my building phase, I might not have done it because it's not like the path I'm on.
I grew up as an actor and a singer, and I remember, uh, you know, and that's musical theater is the thing obviously Broadway, like it's been a thing forever, acting and singing at the same time. But when it comes to Hollywood, which is different than Broadway, right, Broadway's like professional theater in New York primarily less commercial, yeah, less commercial. Hollywood is obviously extremely commercial, and so I remember seeing actors, serious actors sort of being made fun of for making making music, making an album, you know, or or singers being told, oh, she can't act why is she trying to get in this movie. You're a singer, stay in your own lane. And I do remember that being the j Low thing and other people. I do remember that being a thing. It's maybe still a thing, but certainly not as much as that it was twenty years ago. And so I think now the lanes are opening up for people. You know, people can talk about politics and also be a musician. I remember the Dixie Chicks had had quite a time being told literally shut up and sang, which was their film that they made when they started speaking out politically, Whereas now people expect actors to speak out on some of the terrible things that are happening in the world today, and so it's a different it's a different vibe. So in that realm, I think I'm at the right time and right place. I am an actor. I've been on Broadway, I've been in film and TV. I do sing. I went to school for musical theater, Broadways my passion. So having been on Broadway, of course I love to sing. So I love to sing, whether I'm on stage or not. I have music that I've made and put out. And so you're an entertainer, activist, entertainer one hundred and I don't even call myself an activist. Of course, I've been involved in activism, but I think an activist is someone who sort of does that primarily and maybe even earn a living from it. I don't in that.
It's like me with philanthropy. People call me a philanthropist and it makes me uncomfortable, just like calling me an author because I've written books. It's not my identity.
Yeah, but I've certainly done those things, and you're important to me.
So yeah, I get people call you that because you go and do something and then you feel that.
Then it's your responsibility.
Yeah, yes, exactly, And it feels fraudulent too in a way. I get that. I don't like being called a philanthropist because it makes it just sounds like I don't like the way it sounds, even though I do a ton of charity. I get that. Yay, so so nice to talk to you and to you know, learn, I had such a great time, really really nice.
You're a beautiful I mean you are beautiful inside and out, and I'm really thank you so much, and I have to say thank you. I know that the past couple of years have been wild when it comes to reality TV. But I do think that one of the big changes that has to happen in reality TV is a little bit more accountability, not only from networks and you know, people running the show and behind the scenes, but just in general being able to have more protections because reality TV is not going anywhere. It's here to stay. And the people who are on these reality shows, they are talent. They deserve to earn money, they deserve protections, and I think they deserve the same types of protections and considerations that actors would on a set of a movie or any other TV show. They are making entertainment, and people are making money off of these shows in the same way that they would make money off of sometimes more especially yea off of TV and film. And so although it's probably not the most desired way to go about things, necessarily, I think that you have set a precedent and I'm seeing a lot of other conversations take place because of it. And I'm really grateful to you for that, because I come from a reality show that I think that the performers, the talent on those shows. My original reality show, which was Drag Race, deserve you know, certain protections and considerations as well. And I think that ultimately the brand, the show, the health of the brand, and the integrity of the brand will be better off if they're able to make those types of considerations. And so what you've done has set a precedent and I'm grateful for that.
I appreciate that because it's funny because I'm hearing from so many people that changes are being made, but no one will stand up and say that they're making changes, because then it indicates that they've been screwing up, you know, and to the point of before being an activist or a philanthropists like this isn't my cause, I'm not on Washington marching for reality television and you know what I mean, Like, that's not my I just said something and wanted to, you know, be to support people who I didn't realize had been exploited. And it's not the popular people that are making a lot of money that are complaining. It's the people that felt discarded. And I know that the audience doesn't want their junk food taken away, and I get that it is entertaining, and you're right, it's not going anywhere. But there are a lot of things behind the scenes that people don't really know, and it's interesting. It's not what it seems, and no one knows what they sign up for, like they don't they say it now. By now I think people kind of do because it's been so focused on But there has been a shift and that's great. You know, I don't need everyone who's on the show is trying to protect the realm to credit me. It's totally cool. But I appreciate you saying that because I'm hearing that from a lot of people, like Underground saying it's changing and thank you, but you know, the powers that be won't say it, so it's cool. Well, thank you so much and really great to meet you and talk to you. Awesome, Thank you, awesome, I'd have a great day.
Thank you so much, Babe,
