Michael Kassan

Published Dec 16, 2021, 8:30 AM

On reaching your ideal customer and marketing best practices

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I've never intentionally been to our Bossle. I think I've been in Miami one weekend that it happened to be our Bossle. But can we talk about the other sort of do she festivals that pretend to be about something else, but they're really poser ish, meaning I hear that real art collectors are not buying it or a bussle because they've already bought or they've already seen. Because once our Bossle comes in, it becomes picked over. So you're there to be a douche bag. You're literally there to name drop and pose and say I'm going down for our bossl. And I these these types of thing things annoy me, so I don't love going to things if they don't have something to do with me. It's always been my thing. Every year I'll get invited to one or two fashion events that I could sit front row at. And the only time I ever went to fashion Week was when Pamela Rowland invited me and it was something to do for the housewives. So that was the thing that we did. But I didn't love that because it was not truthful. What I mean. I have nice clothes, I wear nice clothes, but fashion Week doesn't really have anything to do with me. I mean, it just it doesn't. I don't like to pretend that it does. It's it is a cool experience, but it's sort of like there's a pretentiousness to not being involved, and it must annoy the people who are really involved to see the superficiality of what it's become too, where it's a celebrity fest and I guess that's what our bossles become. And Coachella, because isn't Coachella the musical version where yes, there's amazing music there, But aren't young girls just and I know my system would call them thoughts. I don't know what it means. I think it means like young girls who go to Coachella. Effectively, they all say that word. I don't know what it means, deep thoughts. I don't know. It's like young girls that I don't know they'll go to Coachella, I guess, um, But don't they all just go there to wear like cross body suede, fringed chack satchels and like earthy wavy like seventies sixties hair and at cool? Did they really know the music they're listening to? I don't know why. It just really it's just not my personality. So Art Basel falls under that, and there are other things too. It's art Bossel, Coach, oh burning Man. That sounds like a land of douche baggery and pos ury, but I don't know. I haven't been to any of them. I went to a lot of Palooza one year. It was in Chicago, was on a lawn and my ax as a photographer, so we went and I went to I went to the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show with him and different events like that with him. But I would always feel inauthentic because it's like, I know I'm not supposed to be here. It has everything to do with me. I'll stay on my own lane and go to the things I'm supposed to go to. Like when I got invited to the Emmy's, it was not a reach because I had a TV show coming out and I am on TV. But going to the Grammys is a little bit of a reach unless I'm announcing something or doing something. So I don't know why. I just never for me. But the conductor Derby would be relevant because I grew up at the race track. That is douche baggery for others, but not douche baggery for me. So there's some douche baggery that doesn't apply to me. If I used to go to Sundance, I used to host Chef Dance. Paul's produced a bunch of independent films. So sun Dance another festival that was very, very cool and authentic when it started and got douche. I don't know what it is now if it's still douche, because independent films aren't the same as they used to be in the film industry. Isn't exactly what used to be, but it used to be very commercial, h what at its peak. But I would have some reason to be there because I have a history there, because I snowboard, and because Paul's produced movies. So let me know about your perception of these douchy events. My guest today is Media Link chairman and CEO Michael Casson. He's a legend in the advertising and marketing industry. He led Initiative Media worldwide as the CEO and vice chairman from thousand one and helped grow the company's initial one point five billion dollars in billings nearly tenfold. In two thousand nineteen, Michael was even inducted into the American Advertising Federations Hall of Fame. Michael has his own podcast on iHeart Good Company where he talks to the biggest players in the industry. But today we get to hear his own story firsthand. You are going to love this conversation and there's a lot of takeaway for you and how to market your business. Okay, so most respectfully, most of the listeners will not know who you are and know what your company does. So you're a different type of guests, but interesting for sure. And nevertheless, I want I like to have different types of people on corporate people, mavericks, entrepreneurs and people who have really sort of climbed through an industry. So you're an admin, is that correct? Well, yes, I mean I I you know, media Link is a media advisory firm. Uh. I grew up um in an interesting different kind of careers, but for the last twenty nine years I've been in the advertising media marketing industry. I ran the largest media agency in the world at the time, and then I started Media Link about sixteen years ago. And you know, we're the leading media consulting firm in the industry. I think, Uh, immodestly. So yes, I wouldn't say admin. But you know media, media, media man more than ad man, but media man. That's evolved because it used to be about advertising and it's evolved into media because that whole entire landscape has changed. Yeah. The way let me let me give you a hand. The way I described Media Link is we're a media or a firm that lives at the intersection of marketing, media, advertising, entertainment, and technology as they all come together. So if you were to describe it, you could say something like that. Just so, it's not just media, it's not just marketing, it's entertainment, it's technology. You may forget all of those, but if you said marketing, you know, media, advertising, technology, and entertainment, those you'd remember and those are That's the way we described the firm. Yeah, well, messaging and connecting. You're in the business of messaging and connecting to the consumer. Absolutely very much. The name of the firm, Media Link had something to do with connectivity. Yeah, So, how have you been able to keep up with what's going on and how to know how to really still reach a customer and how to advise brands that pay you, and how to tell an average person who has a small business, who's a lot of the people who listen here are butting entrepreneurs and they want to know they can't afford a publicist. They're not great at social media, you know, they're not on the they're not a TikTok influencer. How do you get the messaging across when there's so many messages and it's so crowded now, way more than it used to be. Yeah, I mean, look, um, that's the opportunity in front of us. That's what Media Link attacked when when I founded the firm, we saw that whether small businesses or you know, local what we call SMB small and medium sized businesses no different than large companies. If you're a big company and you're used to advertise on television on a commercial break and the world is going to streaming, you have just as much trop trouble or challenge as you know, Pete the plumber or or you know Sally the hairdresser who's got to figure out how to get the message across you, you know, with a better utilization of social media or whatnot. I mean, you know, Bethany, the truth is Google and Facebook somewhere in the range of of their revenue comes from small and medium sized businesses. Sure, Laureale and Procter and Gamble and general motors spend money, but the majority of the money that is generated by Google and Facebook and the like and TikTok and you know, are small medium sized businesses that they can't ever have afforded a thirty second commercial on you know, network television or cable, but they can use social media. And so those are some of the things that we address obviously. Yes, so you could go down that road and we could talk about that and how the small and medium sized businesses, which you say comprise a good deal of your listeners, they would understand that from the context of utilization of social media. My question to you about the inauthenticity of a lot of social media um and the change that so many people have made to lean into it as an advertising tool, as a marketing tool, as a PR tool. How is it not getting so crowded with all of the messaging all day long that it cancels each other out like that that brands aren't able to be heard. How is it possible that there are so many messages going on, so many more than we used to have and that we're still able to absorb all this content information. Well, you know, the job of a marketer, bethany or those people who helped create the messages is to make sure your stands out, you know, to be on a we've always had, uh you know, a cacophony of of messages, and you had to if you think of just watching a television show and you know, a commercial break happens and there's four ads in that break, how do you make sure yours is the one that stands out? And many times it can be three different car companies and uh, you know, and a drug manufacturer, and then you've got to make sure your car ad stands out against the other ones. It's no different than we've done. And an entire industry sprung up around search engine optimization or social media optimization to make sure that you know, you utilize and take advantage of the algorithms that can get your message to the top. It's not a surprise when somebody types in um margarita, your name might come up okay because it's been optimized. That's a business to make sure that when I type in margharita, your name comes up. Oh no, I know, believe me, when you type in you could type in shapewear and it'll come up. You could type in skinny Girl shapewear and other brands will come up because they've taken sort of the association of my brand for them, and I, you know, I find it to be well. Listen, that's that's a truth. And if you think about product placement, if you think about the idea of having a Coca Cola can on the table in a movie or show, or having an Apple computer or you know, whatever it might be, that is, you know, historically what's always happened, because what you're doing is you're borrowing the celebrity one from the other. You're taking a brand that is a celebrity in some way and you're making it either to make it more authentic or to focus on that brand, and you're making it cooler. And and so that is no different than you do with talent. By having your association, people are drawing off and and and drafting off of the cool factor of Bethany Frankel. So that's the that's the quid pro quo that that people want to do. That's why you use endorsements. That's why people ask you to endorse a product, or your product is utilized to make somebody feel current or cool, or you know of the moment. Where are people absorbing and consuming most of their content now? I meaning they're where is the most effective means of getting the advertising message through? Is that on social media? Is that on streamers? You know? Into is it integrating products into a show? Now? I mean? Is the super Bowl less valuable than it used to be? Or is it more valuable because there aren't that many commercials on? I mean super Bowl is very valuable because it's when everybody focuses on it, and it is the one time you know that people are not going to get up to go to the bathroom or do something else during themercial breaks on the super Bowl. They might get up during the game, but they'll sit down during the commercials. It's kind of an oddity, but it's true. And the other time you have that is probably on the Academy Awards. And you know, if if, if you're to believe that awards shows still have a presence and an importance and a relevance. Yeah, those places are the places where you know people are gonna pay attention to the commercial messages because there it's part of the sort of Genessee Qua of of the football game today in the Super Bowl. But on the other hand, I think it's clear if you look at the amount of revenue that's generated by Facebook and Google through advertising, that seems to be the place people think you're gonna get the most bang for your buck is in social media, because again generally speaking, we reached a point where commercial avoidance was the moment that people wanted. And I believe that the moment you created the remote control for television, you put commercial avoidance at the top of everyone's list because the moment you didn't need to get up to change the channel, but you could sit there and flip the channel while the commercial was on. That's what most people tend to do, and and you know, that's the thing you want to avoid. There's a famous old saying in advertising which has been around for more than a hundred years, and it was something that if you remember your you wouldn't remember, but you you probably know the name Wanta Makers. It was a department store chain back in the in the you know, a hundred years ago in Philadelphia and New York and on the East Coast, and John Wanna Maker famously said, fifty percent of my advertising dollars are wasted. I just wish I knew which fifty percent, right, right, That's sort of what I'm saying to you. Break through messaging and people really don't know where to be spent spending their money. For example, I just said to my assistance and she was talking about this TikTok influencer who has eight million followers, and I said, okay, but and I know some of these influencers who come to me to ask me how to make maximize their fifteen minutes. And I'm thinking, you have eight million followers, like I'm assuming somehow they're monetizing it and making money, but I don't exactly know how. I'm sure brands are saying, pour my salad dressing over your salad, but that's not a real monetization. So I'm wondering, Okay, so you're a TikTok influencer of eight million followers, how are you converting that? So you know, if I post on Instagram and I only get a few likes, but I'm posting just for the information that we're doing relief work right now in Kentucky, just so people know what we're doing. But uh, it doesn't get that many likes. Does that mean that people aren't going to donate as much? Or you know, if I get so many likes because I'm wearing a bathing suit, does that mean people are buying more products? I don't really know exactly how it's working. There is definitely correlation. Okay, there's definitely definitely corel lation. If if you have, if you if if you were photographed in your Christmas reindeer outfit, that's going to influence people. You know, I've got that sweater with a reindeer. I should have been where I mean or g I'd love to get it. I'd love to find that. I mean obviously that influences people's purchase decisions. And the way that monetization happens if you're an influencer is either you create your own brands, as you did, or you're endorsing someone else's brand. That's the way you monetize it. You either have to create your own look the greatest example, wait but before you but but but what I'm saying is it doesn't always convert. So I was on Bravo, which is a small audience, and it's the it's the demo, which we'll talk about in a little bit what the demo is and who's buying and who people want. But it was eighteen to forty nine, uh four years plus college two a year. That's who's watching. Small audience and million and a half viewers. Okay, And you know I had the fastest growing like a brand in history at the time. I went and had a talk show every single day on network television, syndicated show, talked about the cocktail, talked about all my products. Didn't move the needle at all. So people think that many things are working and they're not. So I don't if I wear if I'm making a salad and using the dressing, it doesn't necessarily mean that people are buying dressing. People may that audience may already know I have dressing, so they may be sick of hearing about dressing. They may you know, it's very hard to stay on the pulse of what's going on at all times, what you're talking about and selling, and I see people badgering people with it. And that's why I mentioned the online purchases I made that I'm being badgered with discount codes on my email and I don't want to buy from these brands anymore. So I think that there's a line between the fifty that's working that's not. I don't think most small businesses really know the weirdest thing will affect the affect your sales well, but there's you know what's interesting is they actually do know Bethany because they check it out every day on the cash register. Let me give you an example. And I don't want to get too granular because it's kind of complicated technologically, but there's been an ongoing battle, if you will, between Apple and Facebook in this past year on cookies and and and and the ability to have, you know, advertisers be able to actually know what people are doing. And Apple put down the gauntlet and said we're not going to let people track that way anymore. And that had a massive impact on the small and medium sized businesses whose lifeblood of marketing was Facebook. And without some of the data that says tells you where you need to go to get to Bethany as a consumer, Facebook could become less effective. And I've heard many small advertisers, I mean, we don't use a lot of small advertisers, but I've heard many small advertisers say that the deprecation or the less value of the cookie technologically has had direct and and and clear impact on their advertising and their ability to generate revenue. So small businesses actually do see it because they know the uplift they get in business, or when it's not working, they see that business is down. Yeah, but I'm saying it is sometimes it's a crapshoot. It's the weird thing. It's something that you wouldn't have expected. And I want to know who you who do you think is who's the most key customer right now? Who do people really want to be speaking to. Is it the younger generation because they want to keep them and nurture them and bring them with them as a brand, or is it the purchasers or the households that the wives, etcetera. Obviously I know it depends upon the product, But where's the sweet spot? Who should people be talking to? Yeah? The holy grail for most marketers always has been that hard to reach demographic of the young can sumer. Again depending on the product, but also to your point, um, what the consumer package goods company has camp companies have learned is you know, the woman is the one making more decisions about purchases than the man, if you will, in terms of a family. So get to get to mom, or get to the wood. Doesn't necessarily have to be a mom, but get to the woman. She's the one making the decisions about those kinds of purchases. Not good to send me the message because I'm not gonna be the person going to the supermarket or online to purchase the goods. So you know, you go after that demo. The challenge on the younger demo, and this is an important point, is they're fickle. And the challenge on the younger demo is I've always said, when you find them, it may be too late. They have to find you because when you finally get to that demo on face book or whatever the medium might be, they're already moving on to the next one there on to the next thing. It's interesting and it's also interesting that, um, you know, it has been a long time for women to be really recognized and equal pay and equal in business. And I think it was Warren Buffet who said, we're leaving half of our team on the bench by not really focusing on women, particularly if women are making the purchasing decisions. So women are running the business effectively. They're they're so influential, and it's such an interesting, uh you know, conversation and construct with with men being the real business people and women not being taken seriously, because they should be taken so seriously, particularly in this context. I do believe marketers look at it that way. Now you could say, uh, look at how much money they spend, marketers spending sports, And are you going to say that generally if it's football perhaps versus tennis. I'm just I'm not saying that specifically. I'm just making the point, are you going to attract more male viewers or more female viewers? You've got to look at it through that lens. To my bed is in football, you're gonna attract more mail viewers, and maybe in in golf, you know, I don't. I'm guessing you're going to attract I do know you're gonna attract more mail viewers. But in gaming, the surprise has been there's a lot more women gamers than people initially thought. So you can reach women in gaming, not just young guys you know who are gamers. There's a lot of there's a high percentage of gamers that are women. And marketers realized that. So you're going to find products that might be targeted to women showing up more in gaming than you might have guessed. You know, on paper, you'd go, oh, well that must be you know, you know, grungy gamers hanging out, and you know, no, it's you're gonna find the demographic is much more diverse than you thought. And look, we have the same challenge bethany on diverse audiences. Where do you reach those diverse audiences? Do you reach a black audience on b ET or do you reach a black audience on ABC? And then what's the what's the or both obviously? And and do you reach a Spanish Hispanic audience, a Latin audience on Univision or do you reach them on general market? You're going to reach them in both places. Where is the predominant, you know, grouping? So those are the kinds of decisions that media strategists help marketers make. And also where do you break through? And that you could you could reach them in both, but there might be so much other messaging that you might not be able to break through in one place. That's why it is, It's true you have to be very innovative and look at the landscape and look what other people are doing. And sometimes you have to throw the spaghetti at the wall when you're marketing well exactly, and you hope you said it cleaner than I would. You hope it sticks. You said spaghetti. I might have said something else, but you throw it against the wall and hope it sticks. What have your biggest win has been in your career? Your biggest financial you know wins uh, I guess investments, business investments, and one of your biggest uh media idea has been your biggest wins. And then your biggest failures and mistakes, things that you just missed. My biggest win was when I met my wife and married her. That was my biggest Maybe the biggest win was when we had our kids and grandkids. That's the biggest win for me. Well, career, we're talking about career wise. Um, when I transitioned into the media business back in the early nineties, because I'm old, just to put it out there, I'm seventy one years old. So I started when I was pretty old in the media business. I had practiced as a tax lawyer for ten years and then I was running a home video comp me back in the mid eighties at the time the largest independent home video company. And then I transitioned into the media advertising marketing business when I was in my early forties, so that's not kind of g I started there and I was forty three years old when I came into the media marketing and advertising business now professionally as a lawyer, had represented companies in that business, so I understood the business, but as a lawyer, not as a practitioner. So I made that transition kind of at what some would consider my midlife. You know, I'm a I'm a believer that I'm going to live to a hundred and twenty, so, uh, you know, I'm just passing midlife, you know, reasonably speaking and optimistically. But um, I would say the biggest career win for me was the founding of Media Link, uh seventeen years ago and I was able to accomplish uh, something that I didn't think was doable, which an idea that I had on the back of an envelope really turned into a business that today is a pre eminent player on the field. As I would say, the leading you know, immodestly, the leading media strategy boutique in the world. And we had a great moment four years ago when we sold the company to a British based public company called Essential, And that was a pretty successful journey for me and one that I'm still very much on. The they wanted you in, they wanted to keep you, oh yeah, and I and they weren't getting rid of me. Uh you know, they'll they'll kick me out with the uh you know, I'll be the last person to turn the lights off. I learned a long time ago, Bethany, that if you enjoy what you do, work is not a four letter word. And I really enjoy what I do, and therefore I hope I can continue to do it as long as, uh they laugh at my jokes. And what has been your biggest miss? That's something you just didn't see, something you didn't catch something someone did and you just hit yourself on the head and said, what the hell, how did we not do that? Oh? Gosh, um. You know, if you look at that through the lens of lens of investment, what was the biggest miss in an investment? I sold Amazon stock way, way, way, way too early. I was somebody who at the beginning owned a fair amount of it in the early two thousand's, very early two thousand's, and I believed in it, but I was able to be talked out of it by someone said they'll never make a profit, and and and and by the way, there were a lot of people who said that. And the Amazon stock everyone I know has that story of Koulda would have shoulda. That's one that I can point to and say my gut was right. And I allowed my gut to be second guest by others, and I said, you know, you may be right. This may be one of those that doesn't ever see light a day. And you know, I'm not crying about it, but it's one that I know. I was there, I was in it, and I got out of it. Well, it happens, right, Um, do you read endless amounts of information? I can't imagine you have to. Don't you have to know so much? Well? Uh, you know, it gets to management style as much as it does curiosity. For me, I stole an expression from a good friend of mine, a woman by the name of Wendy Clark, when she described herself and she's a very senior executive in the advertising industry. She runs Densu, which is one of the large advertising agencies globally and Wendy and I give her full credit for this described herself which I stole, but I give her credit so it doesn't it's not stealing because I told her. She described herself and I described myself as a micro nowher not a micromanager. I like to know a lot. I like to know everything I can. I don't have to make every decision for everyone, and I don't have to manage everything, but that goes to my thirst for knowledge and reading and and understanding. So I do read a lot, and I and I read a lot of varied opinions so that I can then, you know, kind of conflate and bring them together into what my opinion is going to be. But I need those I need those inputs, and so I do. I'm a voracious reader, you know, full stop. That's what this podcast is. It's listening to so many different very successful business people, moguls that are so varying in their success, from Dave Portnoy to Matthew McConaughey to Hillary Clinton, I mean Mark Cuban, and people then create their own toolbox. You're listening to so vastly different ways of doing business and then finding things that you seeing these people, we've all had mentors of some sort or another. I'm a big believer in that. I happen to be on the board of Big Brothers, Big Sisters, the national organization because I'm a big believer in mentoring, and I mentor people every day of my life. And I know how important it is, especially when you're looking at really young people, which you know the Big Brothers Big Sisters are dealing with. You know, kids all the way up through college and beyond, but certainly it's most important at those ages. And I'm a big believer in that. And you learn from people at all stages. I can learn as much from the receptionist in a company as I can from the CEO. If I pay attention, I may learn different things, but I learned I learn a lot from people. I don't absorb. I don't read a fraction of what you do. I'm I but I am a crowdsourcer of information. I'm always listening, I'm always watching. I'm a crowdsource of information, and I'm an idea hamster. That's sort of my thing. You said that you're a micro no er. I'm an idea hamster. Um, so, what did you think of the Peloton A couple of things. What did you think of Peloton not putting that close in it says you can't disparage the brand even though we're so excited that you're including it in the next version of Sex in the City, that somebody that had to happen. I've been through this where you know it's tempting and it's rushed, and it's a contract. You can't include a brand in something if you don't know the context. So what do you think of that? Yeah, well, I think you know. Look, I'm a big fan of Peloton. John Foley, the founder CEO, is a good friend and personalizing and his wife grew up with my daughter and went to junior high in high school with my daughter, so I know his wife since she was twelve years old. And I'm a big fan of John's And that's the danger. You know, the old joke is any press is good press, and we all know that that's not always the case, certainly, And we also know we're in a world where, you know, we could walk down the woke world stuff, but we're in a world where what you once thought would land a certain way doesn't land that way anymore. And I will talk about that with the context of humor. You know, I was blessed with a father who was an extraordinarily witty guy who you know, was successful in his chosen field, but what he should have done his stand up comedy. He was that good. And you know I inherited that, And it's one of the greatest gifts I ever got, was to be able to turn a phrase with some humor attached to it and tell a good joke and kind of look at life through a lens of not everything's funny, but try to find the humor, and everything, even in sadness, you can find humor. And it's a good it's a good medicine if you will. And I've said for the last few years as we look at this world we live in today of being so politically correct, and appropriately so in many cases, but I say, look, I grew up with a father who would tell a joke about anything. And one thing I knew for sure, he never ever once told a joke that was intended to be anything other than funny. It wasn't intended to hurt your feelings, it wasn't intended to make you feel bad. It was intended to be funny, but that doesn't work anymore because what we say. You know, we all have learned words matter and words can hurt. So even if you think they're funny, the person receiving it might not. And the sensitivity of people is at such a fever pitch now that you can't say anything. I will tell you a story. As we got on this conversation, I'm going to disagree with you in a minute, so I want to hear when we got on this conversation. Is it okay in the world we live in today for me to comment on what you're wearing because I think it's adorable and I think it's holiday season? Or have I crossed the line? And is that not appropriate conversation? Here's the thing that I think it's funny that you said, because I've been thinking about all presses good press lately more than ever, because I don't agree. I don't like that feeling. I don't like teetering on the edge of cancelation. I'm an edgy person. I speak my mind. We've had a lot of issues discussed on the show and they've gotten picked up in the press, and I've thought for my whole career speak when you really have something to say. But I'm not really interested in being written about in a salacious way. And I don't mess with the press because they're like the ocean and you can get whacked in a bad series of waves, and you don't cozy up to the press. They're a vehicle and it's great for when you want to talk about something, but you're not interested in being in there at any cost. What I would say, Bethany, is what I always learned is a reporter, when they're doing their job, you can't be friends with a reporter. Can be friendly, but you're not friends because when the reporters doing their job, they can't be looking at it through the lens. Well that's my friend. I don't want to say that. So you should always know that when you deal with the press, they're not your friend. They're doing your job. But if you're friendly, you could get the benefit of the doubt. But that's just good advice. People should look listen to that and learn from that. It cuts both ways with that. But so my thing is recently I've been thinking not for myself, because I just it's not for me, but that all press it seems to be good pressed with the way society has been. So if you think about it, anybody who's teetered on the edge of cancelation for the most part, with the exception of you know, rape, are going to jail or the threat of going to jail, like really bad stuff, everybody who's teetered on the edge of cancelation, this pendulum swings right back. Okay, the pendulum swings right back because someone is you know, it's it's discussed their body image or something about them, and then all of a sudden they change that and they have a comeback, or someone says something terrible and they've learned for their mistakes, or they were drinking and now they're recovering. They get to have that be a moment. And I feel that everyone keeps talking about cancelation is real. It doesn't seem to be that real. It seems to be people get canceled, they have their may a culpa, And because of all this information that is being digested and processed so quickly in social media, it turns give me some people that know, because I could say that Nick Cannon Jewish comment, he's back, He's back. Christie Teagan issue she came back, more followers, more engagement, more famous. I can't think of anybody besides Harvey Weinstein or Matt Lower. I can't. I can't think uh so the bill O'Reilly, I can't think of that many. Most people swing right back. You know, famous people have a different set of facts than people who are not famous. You're talking about the examples of the more famous people who can apologize and get that second chance. The less famous people are getting canceled in ways that they can't come back because their liabilities and they're not worth the rid like and they're not worth the risk. It's exactly right. I also think that if it's a situation where someone proclaims to be flawed or isn't perfect, like a Christy Tagan who's self deprecating or Nick Cannon, they they come back can be more easily digested because they've never said that they're so perfect or so good. I think people paint themselves into the perfect corner and then they do something wrong and people are just want to pull them right down. It's just a very interesting dynamic. Bethany, are you familiar with the concept of Shaw and Freuda? Yep, Okay, you know I'm somebody who can tell you in my life, I've never been somebody who subscribes to Shawan and Freuda. I do not ever enjoy ever. Well, maybe once or twice, but I generally, I could say almost a hundred percent of the time don't enjoy someone else going through a tough time because I just know it's not fun and I know it's not okay, and I don't wish full harm. I'm a well wisher. I'm not somebody who wishes other people harm. I wish other people well. And you know, I've always described the difference between people who are greedy and people who are hungry. I always want to deal with people who are hungry, putting that in economic terms, I don't want to deal with people who are greedy because if I'm hungry, I want to get satisfied. But I'm okay with you getting satisfied, and that the next person greedy is I want it all. When people are shoving their success or how great they are, how santimonious they are, down your throat, then you're just sort of excited when they take a fall or I find that celebrities in particular flaunting how perfect, how rich they are, how perfect their lives are, how perfec pick their relationships are, how romantic the gifts are, how great they get to travel, and you're watching it and you're happy for them, and people are you know, are going on the ride. But that person, those people aren't sharing the flaws in their relationship and the flaws in their life. So then when they get snapped up, that's why the view, the viewer and the fan is pulling them back down. I felt the responsibility when I had a reality show to share the challenges of my relationship, which were not easy. I felt like I'd taken them on this fairy tale and I couldn't not share the nightmare too, Bethany, only because this is very relevant in this conversation. What I've tried to do is look at life um kind of like a television series. I don't mean that the way you think I mean it. There are many shows that that I really like. But I've seen a pick Pick any friends, pick you know, Seinfeld, pick Curb, your tho, whatever, whatever you're show of choices, whatever that show. And if you look at what we call and you know the term run of run of run of show um versus episodic. It's one way to look at life. If I look at the run of show of anybody your name here, I look at that person and say, did they have every episode perfect? Or did they have a flaw over here or a blemish over here? And was there one episode in their life? Taking the analogy of a TV show, was there one episode that actually didn't like? And the answer is probably yes. But was I willing to write off the whole show because I didn't like one episode? No. I looked at the run of the show and I said, and I look at people this way and the run of show, this person's had a good quality life, and you know, is caring and does the right things. They screwed up over here, they said something they shouldn't have. They were trying to be funny, they they shouldn't have. Whatever it may be. I tiedle look at life and say, a, um, that's how you need to examine it. And I also have a unique, I think unique view of friendships. I read a great quote somewhere I name, I know the name of the book, but I don't know the name of the person that this quote is attributed to. But it really stuck with me. And it said, the definition of a friend is somebody that when you've made a fool of yourself, doesn't think you've done a permanent job. So if something is your friend, the initial I had a Rabbi friend of mine once who said to me, you know, Michael, if if I find out that a friend of mine killed somebody or shot somebody, the first question maybe what did that person do to deserve it? Because I'm going to give my friend the benefit of the doubt. Now I may find out my friends a murderer, God forbid, but my first reaction is going to be what did that person do to deserve to get shot? And again, if you look at life that way, it doesn't have to just be friends. If if you're a celebrity that I have liked and followed and enjoyed your music, or a sports you know, uh, someone in sports that I've admired your career and your accomplishments and your successes and failures. Am I willing to give you the benefit of the doubt? That's really it. Do I think as a friend or a fan? Let me let me expand that definition. Do I think when you've done something to embarrass yourself it's a permanent job or is it just a bad moment. I think that's where you get into the do you go all the way to cancelation or do you get a second chance. I've always believed that we as a as a people broadly people should get a second chance. Absolutely absolutely um And just to finish up the Peloton conversation, I love their shift, their pivot. I love their forty eight hour commercial and just going with a fish are and not backing down and finding the humor and leading into it. I tweeted today that I think that they should uh do something to the song by the BGS staying Alive like some disco spin glass workout, and really lean into it for their customers and just be like, we get the joke, We're part of it. I love it. Bethany, when they did that commercial years ago, you know, the couple in the apartment, and everyone said, oh, that's great, that's great if you're rich or whatever. I was somebody who looked at and go I wasn't. I wasn't offended by the commercial. I thought it was a perfectly fine commercial. This sex in the city issue, that's the risk of being a celebrity, whether you're a celebrity as a person or a brand. You know, it's it's it's it could go both ways. It's a rose, it has it has pedals and cuts both ways. Okay. The last question is for small business owners. Are any business moguls entrepreneurs, what are your top three tips for marketing for getting message out there, for just promoting your business or your brand or your idea. Understand who your customer is? That's number one. First and foremost, Who are you trying to reach? How are you trying to attract them? So the who okay, I think you need to know that. Um, it's no different than when we do strand standard media planning. You look at first, you do the research and you determine who's your customer, who do you need to reach? Second, you do the planning, which is okay, now that I know who my customer is, I need to know. I now know where I can reach them social media, television, a billboard on the Sunset Strip or Times Square or you know, on main Street anywhere, USA or anywhere in the world. And secondly, it's the execution of that. Okay, I know who I not I want to reach, I know where I think I have the best likelihood of reaching them, and now I have to make sure I execut you to properly to deliver that message. So you have to really know who your consumer is and understand though that first, because if you get that wrong, then you're gonna get it wrong on where you reach them and how you reach them. Right. So that's I think the first and foremost rule. Understand who your customer is? Okay, and what if you only have ten thousand dollars, how are you spending it to reach this customer? Oh gosh, um, it's a tough question to answer because if you're a small business in a small town, you're buying a billboard more likely on the street, that might be the best way to attract it. It's gonna depend there's too many there's too many facts and circumstances there, Bethany for me to give a real answer that anybody could hang their hat on, because there's too many variables in that conversation. Now that being said, all the time in our business, when we're called in by a marketer to determine who their best agency partner is, who's the best advertising age and see one of the tests you give them generally is say we're going to introduce a new product, we have a budget of X, how would you spend it? That's how we do it. So it's the same question you've asked now. The answer, the reason I can't answer it here is I don't have another product. I don't know enough about the consumer you're trying to reach. If it's local, it's going to be one thing. If it's national, it's going to be another thing. If it's about travel, maybe it's in the airport, maybe you know, there's too many variables there. My answer would be years ago. I remember it was the people who started pirates Booty. They at that time, I think it was Pirate's Booty, and they had said, and this doesn't have to be about food, and it's a metaphor I'm about to say, but they said, we don't spend money on advertising. We want to get the product in people's mouths. And they always remembered that because it meant you just want to get people to understand what it is that you're doing, selling what is happening, versus just spending money on some messaging that might not connect to the customer. So look, the Holy Grail today Bethany. For a marketer, is you want to um, make sure you read reach the right person at the right time, with the right message in the right context, you know, looking for all those things that are good. That's good, that's people should write. Take their journal out and write these notes down and check all these boxes. It has been such a pleasure, and I feel like it was great takeaway for people who would really listen to just garner business and marketing information. Well, Bethany, it was a pleasure and and you know it was authentic from your perspective, and I hope for mine and I appreciate it. And I do love your reindeer. Ah. Thank you that I know. I've been wearing a onesie forever for those of you listening, I've been wearing this onesie pretty much all weekend. I I have different onesies, but this one I'm really a fan of. So I appreciate you. Happy holidays, uh, and send the same to your family and have a wonderful New Year. Thank you and you as well. So that was very interesting. I wanted to give this gift to you because I know that so many of you are business people, entrepreneurs. You have an idea, you want to be out on your own, and it's very difficult to understand exactly what to do, how to spend your time, how to spend your money, and how to market your business or idea. So I wanted to give this conversation to you to get some free advice so you can really figure out exactly how to reach your audience in the most efficient economical manner. So I hope you enjoyed it. I think there was a lot of good takeaway that you could scribble down on a notepad and make your business a huge success. So thank you so much for listening. Remember to rate, review and subscribe and have a terrific day. M

Just B with Bethenny Frankel

If you can’t handle the truth you can’t handle this podcast. Just B with Bethenny Frankel is the bes 
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