Sunships were always marketed in your mind because it says son on it has a sunshine in the front, that that was sort of healthy. And then when you look at the back and you look at all the ingredients, there's like fifty ingredients, and I always say eat things with ingredients you can pronounce. Uh. So I then realized that sonships are just called sonships, and so that's a great name because it just seems sort of like a healthy snack for kids. When Friedo's the three ingredients on a Friedo's bag or corn oil and salt. But Friedo's are marketed to be like f like fried like they're fried doughs. Like you just think that they're just bad. And I'm not saying the Friedo's are good and that any of these bagged snacks are good, But corn oil and salt is better than the twenty ingredients on a chip that's marketed is healthy. Now it's go on to the other healthy chips, the Keene watch chips, the Lentil chips, the pop chips, the air popped chips, the baked chips. Okay, if you look at the pop chips, it'll have between a hundred and thirty and a hundred and fifty calories per serving. It's usually twenty eight grams. Okay, go to the tortilla chip bag, which you and your mind probably think is like bad tortilla chips. Will also just say corn oil and salt. But this is like your tortilla chip bag, the thing that you eat chips and guacamole with, right that, in your mind is not a healthy chip. That's like you're eating a bag of Mexican restaurant guacamole chips, right, But then pop chips and pop corners and air chips and sun chips and lentil chips and keen watch chips and all these chips that are so healthy and air popped and baked and all that bullshit and air puff and all this crap. They have the exact same number of calories and pretty much close and fat as the gua gamoli tortilla bag chip. So the whole chip genre is a scam. Eat the chips you like, look at the back of the bag. Make sure that they don't have a lot of ingredients or artificial colors or flavors, and that they don't have ingredients you can't pronounce, and that it seems fairly simple, and look at how many grams the serving sizes. But mark my words, unless it's a tiny, little the one of those little insulting bags of chips, it has three chips in some air, it's gonna be grams and like hundred and fifty calories per serving. So eat the goddamn chips that you like, put them in a little bowl, have a serving, have at it. Just don't eat the whole bag. Because the healthy ones are the ones that you think that you can eat the whole bag. That's the problem. That's the real reason for the scam, at least the ones that are orange and have ninety five ingredients. You know you shouldn't be eating the whole entire bag. So really you end up eating more of the ones that you think are healthy. And oh, my skinny girl, microwave popcorn phenomenal beyond, like literally, I think it's number two and low calorie microwave popcorn. It's beyond. It's phenomenal, And there is no scam. It's lower in calories than any of those it's not at all. I told you about the chip scam. But try it. You don't like it, you can complain here. What do you think? What do you think about bagged chip scams? My guest today is Melissa ben Ishe the creator of Baits by Melissa. I'm such a fan of her and her iconic miniature cupcakes. They are the go to dessert for my daughter's birthdays. Today, Melissa shares with us how she went from being fired from one job to launching her bakery in literally just a few days. While she is completely a free spirit, she also knows how to follow her business instincts. She is the only guest so far whose love for the grateful dead has led to a multimillion dollar business. I'm fascinated by her ability to pivot during the pandemic, not only thriving financially, but finding a way to bring people together during such a stressful time. This one is a real treat. You are going to love her, and you're gonna love this podcast. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. I feel like we've met, but we haven't. But you're one of our earlier supporters, so I appreciate it. I am. My daughter loves your cupcakes and I always buy them in soho that is that location is still open. We do have a Soho window. That's very similar to the like original Soho window. It's just like two blocks piece of the original. Um. Okay, so you are Melissa and your business is baked by Melissa, and I want to hear about your whole sort of journey and your business and your struggles and your triumphs and your TikTok uh and being a woman in business and all that good stuff. So where where do you live? You live in the city. I live in Hoboken, but my business is based out of Manhattan. And you work from home or you go somewhere. I go to the office most days. I'm actually filming TikTok content today, so we do that at my house. It's just easier because I have a nice, bright white kitchen. Interesting. Um do you find is TikTok now a business? Is it actually lucrative? Because I think a lot of years ago, when I wanted to do TikTok a social media person told me it was really for eight to thirteen year old and then it became more mom tent during the pandemic, and I think a lot of people are wondering, like, what's up with it? What's what is it for kids? Is it for dancing. What's the point? So for you, is it actually a business? Now? It depends how you look at a business. So we know that when we're top of mind for are our customers. That helps drive traffic to our website. And for a while, I found myself on TikTok like just enjoying the content. So right then and there, I knew if I we so our customer is Jordan's she's a mom, working mom just like me. I am our customer and I'm like, well, if I'm spending time on TikTok, then our customers are too. And I became like obsessed. And it turns out that I am a big part of what makes our TikTok successful, just creating. So we're just figuring out like how to use the advertising on TikTok. And you know, once a week we post the video of a limited edition cupcake we have available where I'm making it. But it's also a great creative outlet. It's giving me an opportunity to do what I do best. And it's crazy. I see people and they only want to talk about my TikTok. So it's working. Is it direct monetization? In? Can I tell you how much revenue TikTok is bringing in. No, but it's keeping us top of mind. The brand's awareness is incredible, and that's the first step. Okay. So you're saying it's a flagship store, it's an advertisement. But directly money directly coming into your bank account as a result of posting these videos is not what's happening. It's basically you're doing commercials showing who you are as a personality, as an influencer, as a health advocate, as a mom. It's that, is that what you're saying. Yes, I am a creator first, and I would love for people to look at Big Bye Melissa's TikTok as a place to go to find recipes for everyday life. Got it? Okay, I understand. Um, So it's PR two, it's not because I don't think everyone understands that. So it's effectively like a good PR strategy, and you get to drive the message yourself very organically, literally, organically and figuratively organically. Okay. So are you a chef by trade or you're just a person who has a passion for healthy food. I love food. I think about food all the time. I can tell you what I'm having for lunch today because I've been thinking about it since yesterday. Is that weird? I just love food so much? What are you having for lunch today? So? I made this mushroom soup that my brother made for Thanksgiving and it was so good that I made it when I got home from Thanksgiving. I didn't make it a TikTok yet because I didn't have the time. Um, so I'm gonna have that soup. And then I also made marinated tofu with this me so dressing that actually did go viral on TikTok, and so I'm going to have that too, probably on like a wrap or something. And and you clean up after yourself when you do these videos, because I feel like your kitchen must be a bomb every day. Yes, well it's funny. So the savory recipes, the salads in particular, I've been cooking, Like the best part of COVID is that I had time to cook dinner for my family every single day. I love to cook. I've been doing that every day for the past thirteen years, whether it's a TikTok or not. So the all of the savory recipes that you see on TikTok, that's me in my kitchen, either when my kids are watching TV on winding from the day or whether when my husband's giving them a bath. That's just me doing it. Because I'm going to cook this thing anyway, I might as well make a great TikTok out of it. Oh nice? And and who's filming them? You know, you do it automat. You know how to set it up so it's filming you like on a tripod. Yeah. So so for all of the savory stuff, I just have a tripod that I got on Amazon and I just like put it. I have an eye for I like it. It's a hobby. And then all of the baked like the dessert um, I do with someone on my team named Kathleen. She's sitting right here, um and we spend Thursday, usually Thursdays together in my apartment. My kids are obsessed with her and we bake like ten recipes every Thursday. Okay, so you're built for this. This isn't what we were going to talk about. But I'm we just went into this road because you're built for this. I'm not built for this. So I like to cook, but just when I like to. I don't know if you know what a tripod is. I don't even understand social media. I don't know how to edit anything. I don't I've never I don't own a lot at this laptop. I'm honest. I think it's my assistance. I think its landed from the sky. I don't have an iPad like. So I'm fascinated by people like you who just naturally have this gift for this, this modern sort of era of what's going on. You're very lucky, like it doesn't come naturally to me. I watched these moms, and it's great that this has become this outlet for people. You're already doing it, so it's just a new modern way to sort of market what you're doing. And also as a person that is a natural food chef that went to school for food and healing, that's had a wheat egg and very free baked goods company, who knows you're baked by Melissa cupcakes. I watch that you're making salads, which is not what you're selling. You're selling cupcakes. So it's interesting because Stacy's pea chips, she was making sandwiches. She was selling sandwiches on the street in the cold in Boston. And the one thing that you can't run out of when you're selling sandwiches is bread. You can run out of salami or cheese or whatever, you can't run out of bread. So they always had extra bread and she would make these pieda chips, and that's what she ended up selling for hundreds of millions of dollars twenty years ago, that business. And I'm watching you and I feel like it could end up being your salads and this other healthy world that ends up being your ultimate, real big success in calling cards. So I for entrepreneurs listening. You never really know what road is going to be the right road. You know, all roads leads to Rome, and you've got to be in the car and and sort of have your eyes open and look for the signs. So that's what I'm getting from you and watching your content. You're eating these sexy salads and you're like crunching that ship like you're making love to it, and you're not making love to the cupcakes. So I just wonder, you know what's going to happen with this business. Well, it's funny that you say that you think it's so important to be able to follow your heart and just to like go with your gut and intuition, and that's something I've only really learned. I think I learned it six years ago when I became a mom, that I actually have these maternal instincts for my business. And it gave me the sense of confidence through learning and my experiences that I never had before. As far as TikTok goes, you know, the technology side of it not my thing either, But I spent time on the app, and I experimented under my own like Melissa Banish I for a while before I actually I uploaded something that went viral under Mine. I was like, oh my god, I have to use this for bake by Melissa. I just trust it. I just knew there was an opportunity to learn it. And the platform is super intuitive. You can do it. And I've seen your TikTok's too, and I do think there's something there. I think what makes TikTok incredible different from any other social media platform is that anyone could be successful at it if you give it your time, like your your time. And I am a scrap booker first and foremost, and so to me, TikTok is a virtual scrapbook, so I get it interesting, like I love it. I get it too. It's the next iteration of someone like Justin Bieber becoming famous because of all these sort of YouTube videos. It's just been next iteration of that. We've just gone away from traditional media, and I think that that's so interesting. No one's really picking up magazines unless you're sitting in a nail salon anymore. So it's just an evolution. So you as an entrepreneur, have you always considered yourself an entrepreneur? It's a great question, yes, but I didn't believe it always. Well that's your impostor syndrome thing you talk about you You you haven't. We had a traditional vision about what an entrepreneur was and that's not you. So now you're sort of fitting into your own skin of being a non traditional entrepreneur, which is what literally everybody and I speak to here has had a non traditional road to success. So that's kind of what I want to hear about your upbringing, your relationship to success in money and work ethic, and how you got into this. I've heard that you've you got fired, you failed, So how did you start? What did you want to be when you grew up? And how did you get to be this mom trepreneur. So growing up, I had two wonderful, supportive parents. I still do so not have. I have two wonderful and supportive parents. I have an older brother who is my best friend. And my mom always tells the story of how on the way home from the hospital when I was born, my brother was like, Melissa, that's a tree and that's a house, like trying to teach me. And I love that story because he's still the same with me today, like he's trying to teach me. And growing up, my dad was in the family business, so the dinner cop we had eight dinner the family most nights of the week, I would hear the talk about business. My brother was very entrepreneurial and very into business at a very early age. He went to Syracuse University and he was in the School of Entrepreneurship and Business, whereas I was very interested in business because that's what I was around all the time. I followed him to Syracuse. I was a child and Family studies major. I it was like a like a earthy no, like like a pothead, like I'm not really yeah, Like I wasn't really into school. I knew that I just needed to get by. I would like go to the gym every day, hang out with my friends, and like make sure I was like passing. But I love talking to my friends about business and you know, not my A lot of my guy friends were in the business school, and so it was fun. It was fun to talk about business. I understood it. I think you need something an idea that people either need or want, then you can do it. I believe that, and you know, that's what excites me and motivates me to work my ass off every single day. So I got by. In college, I was excited about the interview process of getting a job. I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I knew that I just needed to get as many interviews as I could. And I understood like going there, ask them about themselves, what they like about their job, what they think, you know, whatever, and it works. I guess I'm good at the interview process. I got a job that I didn't like. I stayed there for seven months. It was like so boring, but I made good friends. That's actually where I was when I made my first badge of tidy cupcakes. They were grateful, dead themed for a coworker. Then I got another job in advertising, which is the one I was fired from. And the day I was fired, I went to my brother's office, crying from my cubicle, packing up my stuff. Go fired. He said, great, it's the best thing that ever happened to you. Go home, baker cup cakes, will start a business together. Was that How old were you? That was? I was twenty four? Uh that was June two thousand eight. He had just moved into his very first office. He had a company called muse Box Media, building websites for clients. I went home from his office the day I was fired, and I baked four batchelors of cupcakes. Big cupcakes, not bite, says my tie die that I had been known for since baking those grateful dead tie die cup cakes, I started baking them for everyone and anyone, because creating things with my hands like makes me so happy. But then to be able to give them to somebody as a way to make the people I love happy for me, that's everything. And that's what I get to do, truly through Baked by Melissa Um and really through TikTok now, which is why I love it. Yeah, I could tell I get it out and you're wearing a tie die sweatshirt. But I'm getting that now, getting it. So it's the message for people listening. You're really doing exactly what you love. So it's for me. I don't like sort of structure and that kind of organization and like having to have like a tripod or delighting like that all suffocates me. I like sitting right here and talking and being curious and just venting and ranting and going. So it's just different. Like I'm getting why you're loving that you get to sit down and create and share and talk about it, and I'm getting it. I'm getting it. So I like that. But but I I'm not good at structure an organization either. I I can relate to that so much. I do know that I need to sort. And I'm sure you know this too, Like you surround yourself with with people who are superstructured and organized to to balance your your strength. Well, that's so funny, because I'm the most organized person you've ever met in your life. There's not a mess nothing. I just can't be shackled and we both probably have that in common. I can't be like in a formatted television show where you have to say something, do something be something. I was terrible at a talk show because it was a traffic cop and I felt trapped. It's so funny. That's so I look at I'm not going to say the name, but there are certain like talk show hosts. 'm like, oh my god, that sounds like the most. She's been doing it for so many years. Like I don't blame her, like it's crazy, Like you have no idea, You have no idea how terrible it is. People that do that well make it look easy. It is sheer torture. That nothing is worse than people like on you like a pit crew from seven in the morning, about what you want to eat, about the cleavage, your lipstick, your hem, the color, the background florals for spring. It's a ship show. Clorox is advertising and when we come back and after the break, ship show hated it. Okay, So back to you. So you are twenty four, you start baking cupcakes. Um, your brother believes in you. He's your sort of mentor and spirit animal. And you've been doing this for how many years now? Eighteen years now? Baking? Yeah, I always love to bake. And there's like, like one of my profile pictures on Facebook was like rear old Melissa standing on a kitchen chair next to my dad making something like but I mean professionally monetizing it. Oh well at that point. So today it's been thirteen years. At the point that I was fired, I wasn't I wasn't selling. I was just doing it as a hobby. Okay, So it's been thirteen years, uh four fourteen years? You considering are you successful? Now? Are you making money? Do you can you do what you want? Is this a very successful business? By my definition of success is working hard towards things that you love. And I have the opportunity to work hard towards Bike By Melissa and my family. I work my assaut for them. Um. But yes, I am also successful. I make a living, I support my family. My husband is also actually employed by Baked by Melissa. We met the day I opened that Soho window on Spring Street. Wow. So he's so you work together and do you own the business together? That's it? There are no partners. Do you have investors? No? So I have the equity in Baked by Melissa that you know, like if you're married, fine, we share everything. But but so that's my ownership and I do have so the story of Baked by Melissa is like people always ask, oh, how much capital did you raise? You know, like people go to this like really structured place like Oh no, Like I actually surrounded myself with people who had skills that I didn't, which is it's one of my mantras in life to this day. So I went home, baked those cupcakes, set them into work with my best friend's little sister. She was interning at a very well on PR agency, and the caterer for the PR agency was there and the own Alison Broad from Alison Broad. Alison connected me to Ben the day the day after I was fired, and Ben calls me that day, the day after the Melissa's ben Zion, I'd like to bring you to my house for tasting. So I went there. He's one of my co founders. My brother is one of my co founders. It's it's it's a whole. So you have partners. Ben is your partner. He's my co founder. Yes, I'm the only founder who's involved in the business today. Okay, so he's your co founder. He's not involved in the business anymore. What is the what can are you allowed to say? What sales? How much sales you're doing and what the goal is and you let's talk like specific business numbers. We typically don't go into too much detail. We're privately owned, but since two thousand and eighteen, we've tripled our eCOM revenue. Okay, and what is the goal? Do you want to keep this business in your family? Do you want to sell it? Do you need to take on a bigger partner to really grow? What struggles are you having with having do you still consider yourself a small business? By definition? Bake by Meliss is a small business. We're growing. I think one of my struggles or something I am aware of every day is I we have to keep acting small as we grow. Like my passion and love for Bake by Melissa absolutely plays role in our success. I know that my crazy I'm fucking crazy, sorry I said buck, But like like a lunatic, like, it's the people. The people are what allows us to grow this thing. I get to like take credit for it, you know, to the public, like I get to talk to you today, How cool is that? But it's my team, Like I'm the face of my whole team working hard. So I think there are a lot of things that I'm focused on today that I wasn't always focused on because I just had more bandwidth to like know everyone's birthday and what they like for dinner and all of these things. But I think that play is really big girl. We are we do want strategic partner or we want to have the ability to grow more. I have never had so much faith in this company. I became CEO of Bake by Melissa two years ago next week actually, and I never wanted to be CEO. I didn't have any aspirations to be in this role. But under a certain circumstances, my board was like, yep, Melissa is going to be interim CEO of Fake By Melissa will figure it out. And then two months later we were in a global pandemic and how like it was the best experience outside of my comfort zone. Hold on, slow down, because people listening are budding entrepreneurs and they've learned through the show that there are so many different roads. So you said a couple of things. So first of all, my business is probably around a hundred million dollars. I don't know if I consider that to still be a small business. Okay, you, um, I don't have a board. You have a board. I don't really have a CEO that's sort of been named because I don't have a board that said there had to be one. I have a CEO, which I didn't have in this whole decade until last year. So for people listening, there are so many ways to do this, and none of us really know what we're doing, which is why, Melissa you've talked about in pastor synd own. Because one day you'll wake up and all of a sudden you'll say, wait a second, maybe I should bring on somebody who's gonna give me money and then they're gonna infuse, they'll be a strategic partner so I don't have to be so stressed all the time. And then someone like Mark Cuban will say, well, what do you want the money for? Because then you have some different boss telling you. It's like there's so many different ways, and you have to figure out for yourself whether you want a partner, whether you want a board, whether you want a CEO, whether you're the CEO. Like, there's no right answer, so hold on. So you have how many employees do you have that work for the company? Bake Melissa, how many employees are there? Down to uh, salaried employees. Let's say, well, so we have the bakery, and we have retail, and we have our corporate office and all together that's around two that's a big that's a see that. To me, that's not a small business. That's a big miss. I have ten people, twelve people including literally my driver, like I to twelve people. So you would think it's nice. It's not. Yeah, it's nice. So you have two hundred people. We could be making the same amount of money because you you could be selling more are or less, but you have more people to pay. I have bigger expenses. I mean, it's so many different ways to do it. So you have two people and you have a board. So what when did you create a board? And what do you do as a CEO? What does all that mean? Because you're this free spirit? Yes, and I'm more of a free spirit than you, because I don't have a CEO. I am the CEO, but I don't even know what that means. So that's all beyond me. So we found that the company in two thousand and eight. My brother was like the vision, like it's his vision, and that that really started and built Baked by Melissa. He did all the ship that I didn't want to do. He also was our CEO. So one day into the thousand and nine, let's say he went around to like me and my co founders and divisions, like, I want to be CEO and he should be. He was absolutely the leader and at the end of the day, there needs to be one person making the decisions. When I hear that there are close CEOs for a business, I'm like, what how does that work? But okay, oh yeah, okay, so I'm the CEO, Yes, exactly. It's the person who has it all on them no matter what it's like when COVID hits like I'm the one and that's not you know it is, Well, it wasn't me. I had my big brother telling me what to do, and so he was our CEO for eight years. I oversaw the product that was the face of the brands. You know, I was the Penny Lane right like the like the inspiration and whatever the brand. And then the talent. You were the talent, yes, the talent. And then my brother is like a true entrepreneur, he needed to go and continue creating like running uh, like small business is not like where he excels, which I and I saw that firsthand. He wasn't really happy anymore. So we hired his replacement, who was incredible. He he had this incredible experience. He was my biggest fan. He his greatest strength was people and empowering people. And he used to me all the time, like, you could be a sea level executive. You could do anything. And what I learned from him is that it's not rocket science. I needed that so bad. He also brought me back to life. Working with my brother was incredible, Like we're still best friends. But for all of you out there who have siblings, try working with your sibling. That was probably the most challenging thing, not to mention the fact that I have I'm one of five co founders. We all have this tremendous love and passion for this one child. Essentially, can you imagine, Oh my god, No, I don't I want to get into that, because I'm I don't understand how during a pandemic having fourteen locations and how an e commerce business is paying five founders and two hundred employees. And I know you're not getting into details because I'm not. I'm not I'm not being nosy. I actually want to understand how you're managing that. That doesn't sound easy because people are listening want to scale their business and trust and believe, if I had two hundred employees and five founders, I would be broke. So yes, okay. So the CEO that we hired, I loved him. He brought me back to life and he taught me so much. And then unfortunately, on December fifth, two and nineteen, it comes to light that he did something illegal at a previous job and he fled guilty to it, and so he couldn't be our CEO anymore. That's it. Sorry and wow. And at the end of the day, you know what, it's always been on me? Right who who? I? I went into my investor's office and I said, don't worry. I knew I had to be common, cool as a cucumber, and like I am, like that's my whatever. Everything's always okay, Like it's fine. As long as you have your health, it's gonna it's gonna be fine. So I went in there and I was like, it's gonna be okay, don't worry, it's gonna be Like what are we gonna do? It's gonna be fine. We we a board call, so like who's on our board? You know, my brother picked somebody that he, you know, had great relationship with. My investor has somebody who he put on our board. It's like at an advisory it's when ship like this happens, who you gonna call? Who do you trust to get together to be like what the hell are you gonna do? So we had a we decided to have a board call that evening at six pm. I'm standing that's my bedroom. I'm standing in the door of my bedroom on the board call, and they're like, Melissa's Melissa's gonna be CEO. Like it wasn't even a question for them. I like, feel it right now. Even tell you I look bad, I'm like, I'm gonna be see you, see you Okay. But I love it because you don't grow unless you have an opportunity to go outside of your comfort zone and truth like, no matter what you're doing, if you're doing the same thing every single day and you don't have that change or jolt, that it's boring, like it truly is. So I was like it took me like thirty seconds. I'm like, okay, like this is gonna be great. That's so funny that you thought of it is so different. I'm so shocked by this, Like what, you didn't do anything different? What did you walk into an office of the briefcase like I sit home in pajamas every day, Like what nothing had to be different. I love having abody responsible for the pian l like I love it, like I love that my focus is the brand and the product and the marketing and all the fun stuff that I am truly the best at. Don't show me cash flow and the balance sheet and the pian l like well, like you see that. Now you see cash flow and the balance sheet. Now, of course, it's my job to make sure that the business is healthy like but I but but so I hired I believe in it's so important to own your weaknesses, like I know what I'm good at, I know what I'm not good at, and I'll be the first one to tell you when I'm wrong. Or I think that's so important. So I hired the best CFO I could find. He's my partner, but obviously so. But anyway, I got it. I walked to the subway the next morning listening to Rocky. I was up all night, like you know, crafting what we're gonna say, you know, yeah, So and so is no longer the CEO of bake Bie Melissa. It has nothing to do with us. Is entirely personal to him. Effective immediately, I am going to be CEO big By Blissa, And they all stood up and clapped for me. That was like amazing. I mean, this was like the who's there? Oh? I thought like this was a press to something. I'm like, lam laugh, Okay, got it. That's hysterical. You're so, but you're so. You're so casual, but you're so. You're much more like sort of formal and corporate than I am. I'm looking at you and it's just so funny. The way you're describing yourself is so free spirited, but you're very official, like we're running a mom and pop shop over here. But it's just funny that this is the point to people listening, that there's so many ways to do this, so jump in and just figure it out for yourself. You have a very corporate vibe going on. Well, to be clear, I have an investor. So he made a personal investment into the company in like two thousand and twelve, and then he started a fund and made a bigger investment while my brother was CEO, and so when you have that type of money in your business and it wasn't a huge investment by any means, but he has a seat at the table and I mean, now he's are you know, a very big shareholder bag by Melissa and we've been working together for a long time. Seth has like been by my side through this whole thing, and quite honestly, like I don't as much as I say, like it's all on me, I don't know everything, Like I I looked to my team for for almost like there are things that I know certainly in my guts. Sometimes I can't even back it up with data, but I don't care, like you're not going to get it, like this is this is what we're doing. But that's very more rare. So I do think it's important to to know to have those people right and for so long. Yeah, and Seth was up with me all night, like you know, he was even crazier about it than I was. But what was so interesting is that I was so out of my comfort so and he believed in me from the from that moment, like from when they were like okay, wellis is going to be CEO? He came and stood right next to me while I told my whole corporate office and sent the email to all of the two people. You know, it's a lot of people, and you have to lead by example. And if you don't believe it, they don't believe it. And if you don't follow the structure, and if you don't do what's right, then why would they? So when you have I have this responsibility to like all of these people who are judging me all the time, I like it. I like what you're saying because the truth of the matter is, and I struggle with this I have. I am the only I own a d of this Skinny Girl brand. And the challenge with that is that I'm the only one who really feels the burn and the pain and the stress and the anxiety and the threat of cancelation and all of that. It really is on me, and I'm in you know. And so that's a lot. That's a lot. It's an absolute lot, because you can't really get other people are totally invested in loyal and amazing, but you can't get somebody else to be as invest sit in it as you when you're really the whole thing. And that's just something for people to listen to and learn. You have many people that they have actual money they've invested, so they give a ship as much as you, and they're betting on you and you are the face. So that's a different responsibility and that's just something for people to think about whether they want to have partners or not, because that's something that no one will ever care as much as you if it's your business, but you have it's not just your businesses, other people's business too. Skin in the game, right, do you offer sort of pri I bet you're like, do you have a profit sharing for the two hunch of people or do they have upside? I bet you they do. A lot of some a lot of them do, like a handful of them do. And quite honestly, I think the hardest part of my job is banned with there's never enough time, like those are the things I need. I actually mentioned it on my executive call this morning. I'm like, we need to talk about that because we're getting to the end of the year and it's really all about like providing our people with the support and making sure that they know how they performed and what they need to be doing next year to be better, so with the pandemic. I said in the beginning that people had to not be a deer in headlights, and that when there's big seismic shifts that there are like gold mines and that fish will just be in a different place, and you have to pull your ship together and try to like watch the horizon and see where it's going to be. Versus everyone being panicked. I knew that what goes up must come down. It's just it's just it's a snow globe. It was shaken up, and it happened for me personally in my business where exploded and I'm trying to keep up with it, Like it's hard to keep up with then, And that doesn't mean like it's embarrassment of riches. A lot of things did really well, but mistakes happened when things explode and you're not sort of preparing, you know what I mean, Like you always prepared, but I overshot the mark. I was trying to tell everybody else about that, but it happened to me personally in my own business, so nobody knows. Everybody looks at us and they're like, oh my god, they have the best life. I want to be like that. It's sucking hard. It's really really hard. So whatever, I get that. So what happened? So you have a small business, it's it's you have. You had a lot of retail locations. You're probably riding high. Everything was going well, so retail locations slowed down. Tell me what happened? Well. So, so December five, CEO, And by the way, like we're in it again right this second, because in November twenty nine, like we're in our busiest three week sprint of the year, like leading up to Christmas. And then right after Christmas we're like, okay, now it's Valentine's Day, Like we're already like in Valentine's Day because it comes right after and that's the single highest volume week of our year leading up. So I was able to we we had like the most successful holiday and then Christmas in the history of the company when I after I became CEO, which was great. I needed that to happen. And then on you know COVID. Everyone's talking about COVID. I remember I was at my bakery for a photo shoot. That's where we shoot all of our product. I'm sitting at a little folding table. The March second, my brother's telling me like he's scared a little bit, like about COVID, and I was like, I don't have the luxury to be scared, like I have a business to run. It wasn't really like it didn't click for me yet. Then on the way home from that photo shoot, the mayor of homeokay and closed school, I'm in maneuber. I had all my team coming back to my apartment. I was like, let's just be together tonight, let's have dinner, which was so random, and my parents were sitting in the corner of my apartment like keeping their distance as a holy ship. This thing is real. What whatever I canna do with my kids? And then my investor was like all right, like layoff, Like what are we gonna do? Like like we saw revenue just go right down those like uh March twelfth, right, that was like that, like revenues is going down, down down, foot traffic to the stores were down. The sounds like se year over year week over Oh my god, Like it was just crazy. And so my I had my investormating like like started thinking about layoffs, you know, blah blah blah, And I was like, give me till Friday, Like I needed, like everything was changing so quickly, and my team is everything, Like I get it, Like give me till the next paycheck, like let me just figure this out. And so this is when you just like fake finalist is my firstborn child. It is a part of me. I had like a wave. I think I was watching CNN and like, oh my god, like we need to keep people safe. Like that is what I believe in the fact that as a leader, I didn't have a leader of this country or this like like telling me what to do was mind blowing. I was like, you know what, it's my responsibility as a leader. If I have an impact on anybody else, then I'm during the right thing. We closed all of our stores. That sad all day the thirteenth, I believe it was. And so I just had this wave over me, like we have to close the stores. We have to keep people safe. And I called my investor, like Seth, I was like, we have to close the stores. It's like, all right, close the stores. Send out an email through our scheduling software we're closing tomorrow, like we'll figure it out. And then um we we did do layoffs the following Friday of Hourly Hourly workers, including people in our bakery because e come was also down. Everyone was in the state of shock. I guess I also left out that, like even before that though, before I went to that photo shoot. So it's like March one, you see people stocking at my toilet paper canceling events. We have a B two B business where like it's like event orders and client gifting, and people were canceling their orders. I got, I got my creative team in my conference room on my guys, I don't care that you have newsletters planned and campaigns planned. We need to change what we're telling people. We need to connect with our customers. They're looking to us and we're trying to sell them shipped for like birthday parties. That doesn't make any sense. So we changed our messaging right away to like you can't be there to celebrate in person, send cupcakes, stock up on cupcakes, you know, And I do think that worked. Actually, we like I do, I believe so like a broken record, like our customer, similar to my team. Our customer allows us to do what we love every day. And the more we can connect with our customer and help them through life and give them things that make their lives easier and sweeter than the better we're doing as a company. So we I think we really were. We were good at connecting with our customer like, hey, like we're in it too. We don't know what's happening, but have some cupcakes, Like send cupcakes. You can't be there in person with your loved ones. We were getting pictures of like year old Grandma's in the nursing home with cupcakes, like thank you so much for bringing a smile, Like we couldn't be together, but she was happy. And that was through you're saying, conveying through social media and through your website. That's what's that's where this messaging is happening and digital marketing and so like we send out newsletters to our you know, group of customers that have opted into receiving our newsletter, which is like hundreds of thousands of people. Um like you know, direct ads and social ads. I mean, like we pay for ads on social media that so did you are you were you? Are you up since the pandemic or you broke even? Are you back to normal? Like what was the net situation? So we close our stores about a week later, become exploded, Like I was I just knew failure wasn't an option. I was gonna go drive the pick of the drive the FedEx truck if I had to, like I was gonna do. I was gonna die, like to do whatever I need to do. I was like in the bakery, like you know, showing everyone. So anyway, we like did the PP the bakery. We we uh social distancing PPE. We get our bayre sanitized three times a week. Then we had to like tell everyone to get them back to work. Like we we created one shooters like your safety is our top priority. This is what we're doing to get you safe and bring it home and show your family. And that helped us get and all this class money though you shot your locations. You're spending money. Yeah, this all class money. Okay, so you're doubling down. We got the p PP loan, which was helped up. We we did layoffs because we looked at the we looked at cash, and we could have survived like a month, like truly, like so we were just what are we gonna do? Like so we went all in on safety getting people to come back. We did see the demand for e com really go up. I mean birth our birthday skew. Our Happy Birthday gift box is our number one selling skew. But it was up, like, I mean, we couldn't get the gift box isn't fast enough? Like so that was great and we I have remember saying to my investor, like my investors number two basically like we were all talking like all the time, right like this is everybody was do or die mode. And so one night I said, Hey, Blake, how much revenue do we need to do an e coom to offset the loss at retail. He's like, you're you're crazyna. Give me that number. I just need that number. I'm so goal oriented, so I'm like I can need that number. I need the number that I'm working towards. And we did it. Like that was it. I was like late dead set on what we needed to do at ECB to offset retail. And I mean then you get into like the legistics of it, like if my CFOs here is like yeah, but the margins are different for shipping because you have all of the costs of goods. You have the shipping box, you have the ice pack, dude, the liners. But revenue was up. But net net as a business, are you up down or even as a result of the pandemic. Did it help you in any way figure out what you really needed didn't need and shift your entire business? Is it better not not? The health assign for your business? Was it better or worse to learn all of this? Is you have a better business now? Better? Okay better? And but and it's I am like the most annoyingly positive person in the world. Like even though I made it sound like it's great to have like five co founders that it investors, you know, like like it's so important to understand and so like to take the good. But for the business, it was great. We're a directive We're a digital first directive consumer gifting company, and our website is our flagship store. So everybody feels this is a success and it's a win. What happened? Like no one's still suffering from wounds. Everyone feels like, wow, we did it and now we're on the up. That's like it was so you learned. One is even harder. This year is much harder for me than COVID was. Actually, Okay, why let's hear about that because that's the back end of COVID. So why I think of anybody who's like listening, like how are you doing? Like like you know, like and and so much of Big By Melissa is my team. It's the people and like I'm burnt out, but I have no you know, like it's it's it's exhausting, like we've been in this global pet I'm having a hard time. I feel the same way. So I don't know. We're not really aware of exactly why I feel the exact same way. I have deal fatigue. I want to get off the ride. I I get it, I fully get it. I don't know what's going on. I don't know why it's going on. I don't know what's upset. I feel the same way. So it might be the aftermath of that. Who knows. Yes, we're making money, but it just feels harder to do so I don't know what to do, which way to turn. It's it's exhausting. It could be being a mom, it could be balancing, and it could be all we've been through with school. But I feel the same way that you feel. So that's good for people to hear. And I'm sure, yeah, and I'm sure that like you and I kind of reacted the same way what you were saying before like, oh my god, my friends were freaking out about like toilet paper and white. I'm like, get your head on straight, like your kids are watching you, like you make light of it. Your kids are gonna be fine, Like they're so worried about the impact it's gonna have with their kids, Like they're fives, they're three. It doesn't matter, Like just be happy, don't show your stress. Everything's gonna be okay, Like we're yes, you know so. But but now it's like first it's I think everyone has burned out. So like my team like has burned out, and I've watched we want like since May, we had more turnover than we've ever had, and I don't I don't take it personally. That's good that you're being honest about that. You're saying morale is down. That happens in my business too. It's ship. The ship flows downwards. If it's the morale can be down, it could be something going on with your personal life. It could be something going on with anything, your brother, working with your spouse, money, you're on whatever, hormones. Who knows. The morale can be down, and then you have to just like look at it and try to correct it. But that happens to me totally. You've been stuck in your house for twenty months. You're you want to be your Yeah, so you're not traveling, you're not tan, You're not you know, free, and not exercising. I'm that exercise. I don't exercise, and I'm really not exercising. Your hips hurt from sitting down all day. I was like doing stretches before before while I was like waiting to start. It's a ship show. So but so you know where I'm spending my time right now, and this is what being the CEO is. We're doing a cooking class my whole team. Because you know what, people love the relationships they build played and simple, and if you want people to love their job, then they need to build relationships. I'm not going to force my team to come into the office because they did an incredible job in the past. That's weird too. Now you have at homeworking and people you don't know what it does. Nothing seems normal anymore. Like we have to have a structure being here, but be aware, like it's very weird, it's very strange. So I like that you're being honest about that because it's totally how I feel. We I tried to do. I do virtual baging demos like for people. Sometimes I was like, okay, let's do one for bake bite Melissa with somebody's I get like three people came. I'm like, okay, well, if you don't want to come to say, what are you gonna do? And so now people even there's like a few people who really don't want to come into the office anymore. It's fine. They're all doing an incredible job. So I just need to create opportunities to get together. We had a couple of happy hours and once a week we're doing something to bring people. But it's still weird and it lacks structure. Lacks structure, and that's strange, like no one's working as efficiently from home. No, because you need collaboration. I agree, yeah, I agree, I know, but we're all like this all day, Like with my neck words. I I had a consultation with an acupuncturist last week, and I think he goes we facetimes, he goes shrubby your tugue. It's like you're just empty, you're tired. I'm like, thank you, but I know it was it was so validating it's so funny. I put a scar fun. I tried to every day. I'm trying like now, I'm like I'm getting up and putting clothes on in the morning, not just like they're sweatish and I have slippers on. But I put a scar fun. I know it sounds weird. I was like, I want to look, I have jewelry on. Yeah. I never used to do my hair, but like I need to sometimes, like because I'm gonna start doing my hair. I didn't do my hair, but I brushed my hair all right, I took a shower. I'm usually just like a top on. I like, but then now my hair is so healthy because I don't do anything, you know, I don't even have opportunities to like do the pr as much. It's like all virtual exactly, all right. So a couple of just a few more questions. So you are mistakes, your biggest mistakes, your biggest mistakes, and your biggest fears. I want to hear about that what you really have screwed up on and like they were just mistakes and you just you know, I I loves I like I hate to sound like a freaking kindergarten teacher. But like mistakes are so important. I I like say the same things on interviews I say to my five year old, but like if you don't make mistakes, you don't learn, you don't grow. I think owning your mistakes is very important. One of my strengths, said weaknesses. It's like I'm on a job interview right now, but I mean it is that I'm very trusting, but I own it. What's the alternative? Same being one of those like like I know negatives, like you're you thinking? I mean my brother is more of like the opposite where it's like he thinks every everyone's out to get him, which is like also good and like you need that balance. But like you only live once, and and it's the people, right, Like if I didn't trust the people that I spent all my time with, then yes. But but I heard something on yellow Stone last night and he's one of this like the characters on a horse. I don't know it was. It was actually Tim McGraw. He said, try you don't trust until they've earned it. So maybe that's a good I'm saying because people listening want to learn from whatever your mistakes, or even if you've grown from them. So I too. I've been stolen from I've been scammed, I've been had people try to get me canceled just because I'm you know, a target. So you can be trusting, but trust has to be earned. Let's just let's put it. Let's put a button on that one at least so it has some sort of message to people. Moral. Yeah, my dad, my dad is also you know, he's runs the business, and he like since we started business, like don't be don't be too trusting or don't get too attached, like they're gonna leave you. Everybody leaves you and get know what everybody leaves except for like my vice president. So you can't be too trusting, but you can't be negative, and you can't be bitter. Doesn't mean you're you're bitter, It doesn't mean you're seeing the lass is half empty. Just be cautious, right, cautiously trusting, and you have to be knowing that sometimes people are going to disappoint you. But I'd rather have it that way, So I think I think that's a big one. Well, for me, loyalty and hard work is more important than loyalty and hard work is more important to me than intelligence. It always has been like if you're loyal and hard working, it's the most important. If I don't trust someone, I don't. I have people that I won't feel emotionally safe with when I work with them, and it might be in a very trusting package. They seem trusting. If I feel unsettled, it's like you gotta go with your gut, but you but you trust exactly. But like, okay, so my CEO, who taught me more than any class I ever took, should I have not trusted him because you know what, like my gut for like I knew in my gut, deep deep doubt that something was off. I remember, and we worked again. We worked together for three years. I remember like telling my husband, who also know about like something is off. We've been working together a year. There's still nothing that I like, don't like about him, Like there something is off. But you know what, would I change anything I did? Like a very I think we're doing great and like look at me now, like I wouldn't have had that opportunity. It sounds like you probably didn't see something. It sounds like because it happened to me, I'm sure that there's a couple of dollars missing from the cash register that you don't even know about. But you learned a lot from that person too, and he had a lot of benefits also, but you at least saw the signs. Most people get stolen from their brothers, their business managers, like it happens, So you should be rightfully paranoid. When you're running a business, you have to be paranoid. And I noticed everything I don't I forget. I miss nothing. There's a book on a shelf if it's missing, if there's a sesame scene that's out of a jar. I noticed that. I don't know why, and everyone around me knows that. So if people know that you're not just sort of some dumb dumb talent that doesn't know what's going on, then they at least know that you're away, Meaning you don't have to be so paranoid because you just But if you feel something, it's not something that you can risk, like you feel for a reason. You have a mother's intuition, and I have felt things in business and I have been correct, so I just act upon them. But if I don't feel safe, if I feel something's wrong, and you don't want to deal with the change in the business, tough ship got to change. It's just you could feel it. So that's what I think about that situation. I don't know the guy, but I know that there's definitely something that you were feeling and it's probably correct and it's good that you cut bait. And I think that like as far as strengths go, and I do think this is important and it's it's hard to do. I'm a silent killer. Like it's very hard to like let like people like look at me. I'm so I smile like sometimes you're like, oh you're so pretty, like chick up like whatever, but you know what, I don't really care, like let let them think. I'm just like this pretty face. That's Suzanne Summers. That's Kelly Rippa, the cute little pixie bluff, you know. That's that's that. Those are Kelly RiPP Kelly rip was so smart, she's shark, but she's an a cute little package to no one takes her took her seriously. Well, she's winning. And same thing with Suzanne Summers as a dune blonde on Three's company. So those that's good. I'm not a silent killer, right, Like I don't mean an ego like I I don't have an ego like I I and since way before like being CEO, you know, I've had to see that the board for ever since we created that board, and like I would watch things and who knew I would find myself in this situation. But I just like let them watch me, you know. And it doesn't really matter what people think as long as you know who you are. And I think what I had the wonderful opportunity to do is like go out of my comfort zone, improve myself for myself first, and I think that's what everyone needs to focus on. It's very easy to say, like, oh, this person wronged me, or like if they would have done this different, like whoa, whoa, whoa, Like we're not going to ever be able to control other people. The only thing you could could control is the way that you respond to the things that happen to that are completely out of your control. And by owning that. And I read one book that like like everything clicked, Like it's called The Games People Play because I was having some trouble in my relationships and it's just like made me realize, like I am always going to have like a high emotional intelligence and I can't let anybody who doesn't have a negative impact on me. I can don't see you coming and that they don't see you coming, and that's okay. Not everything needs to be said, not everything needs to be seen, and not every dot needs to be connected, as long as you know exactly the last thing I want to talk about, because I talk about successful relationships on the show on what that means? You work with your husband? So what the hell does that mean? What is how does that work? Because I'm asking you a different question because I'm just talking about usually relationships, So how does that work with gender as it relates to finances, as it relates to partnership, as it results to masculinity, all that stuff? Like how to balance all that so everyone feels valued and you know you're the boss. We fell in love using cupcakes. I hired him to help me with deliveries. I just didn't have time. I was just twenty four year old running all this stuff. I never worked a day in retail um And then we kind of we signed a lease for a bakery like ten tho square feed and we were both going there every day, and that definitely took navigating. I think that was actually the most challenge, like when there wasn't clear structure and accountability, that was a challenge, but we put real So we both work on product development. I conceptualize everything and he basically makes it. So he like bakes every cupcake that new flavor, and he's also responsible for other things. So separate spaces physically in a home and also in business, separate, separate quadrants. He reports to my CFO. He will never report to me. I don't want him to report to me. And and and you know what, thank God, like he's happier and more motivated than ever before because my CFO is incredible and I love him, so I think that is a big part of it. And then as it really so, my husband is not American. He is from Israel, and you know, culturally there are differences which are also challenges sometimes. You know, I grew up like a very certain way, and and so he is very hands on. He somebody who once told me like, oh wait till you see he's gonna have maternal instincts. I'm like, okay, he he is a very hands on father. And I think I think, like we just being married and like relationships take work, it's it's it's hard. So like I think the biggest thing for us is that like, hey, I'm very good like owning my I've apologize. There's always something you can apologize for when you screw up. But I think, like I need him, Like I can't do my job as as CEO of Baked by Melissa without a supportive husband who plays a role in my house with my children as the father, Like he looks forward to the knights where I have a baking demo, and like he's with the kids in our bedroom. They have like parties in our bed and they get to watch movies and eat snacks and like so they look forward to when mommy works, that's amazing. Or you know, if I he picks up the girls from school or when they were in daycare, like he would do the pickup, so I would do drop off and because I'm a morning person, like get them there and work. So you have a true partner. You have a true partner. What I've been through that I will never go into detail about because I have respect. A normal person would be like committed. I swear like you mean businesses, haven't you been sucked over? It's just really it's really hard, And I would I wouldn't say fucked over. I would say it's really hard, and yes and yes like the way. But but interestingly, and I didn't even realize how challenging it was, maybe until after I believed that everyone like it's like I was so lucky to be in my role that of course it sucks, like like people think that I have everything. Well, you're assuming that anybody listening knows what you're talking about. I certainly don't, so we can. I want to say one thing to you. I'm just thinking in my mind, I'm like literally playing charades. But the girl by Chloe, I've read stories about her, and she was partners with people and then they sort of took her business. And I'm only reading one part of the story, you know what I mean. I read Kelly Rufford's custody story and her husband's custody, So I don't know the story, but I know that that seems like a weird story that the husband is custody in France. So I know that by Chloe I used to go in there. I know that it's got a new business name. I think they sort of pushed her out, so I know that that happened with Kathleen's cookies too. She had these amazing cookies, Kathleen's cookies. She had two partners, she had to start over again and it's takes cookies now and she rebuilt it. So I literally just peripherally know these stories. So I know that I spoke to Stacy Bendon and she had a partner for like five seconds in the very beginning. Who still it was twenty years ago. But I know that a lot of us women have these sort of beginning business horror stories, and that might be something to do on here, like a panel and talk. You sit here with buy Chloe and Kathleen, because I don't even know what you're talking about, but something was to happen to you like that where you started off, you trusted and you had to hold onto your business with both hands. It just sounds like the same type of story, Mike, right or wrong, it's it's a it's a little it's a story for another time. And the truth is like, if it weren't for everything that happened, I wouldn't be where I am today. And you know, there was definitely things that were very unfair air and I was very young and I didn't have the confidence I should have absolutely had in myself two overcome it. But I stand up for yourself. Yeah. But and I used to get so upset and my dad would say, like the sun will rise tomorrow, like what makes metals feel extreme heat? You're gonna be fine, and like I am who I am? I am? So I mean, like knock on wood, God, I don't want anything terrible to happened tomorrow. But like try and shake me, you know, like just try. I got it, I got it. I had that in my personal life. I had a situation that was excruciating for years and years and my personal life torture almost killed me. Nothing that can never compared to my abusive childhood or anything, but this situation of my personal life was torture and I survived it. And it wasn't business but torture. So I think, well, I might have my producers call you and maybe reach out to those two women and we can talk about as like a special episode. It just inspired me talk about things to watch out for as a young woman starting a business, mistakes, like things that you might not normally see. I think young women could probably benefit from that, not just like a touchy feel like female empowerment show. But like, really, whoa, I didn't see this coming and they're probably all different stories something like that. It took me a really long. I love that, Like I used to go on panels and when I was like younger and the ability. So what's it like to be a female in the like workpace? What do you think about the challenges that female face? And I would be like I feel like in my head, I'm like, I think we create the problem. I think that we're too focused on it. That's crazy because I was wrong, Like there is a very big gap. I don't I don't even know how to say. But the truth is, like women are like we are we can do anything. Men can do it more because we could also have babies, like they can't. Like we're so smart and like are with the things that they know, Like they're kind of like their egos, they're too ego. And I hate to say that, but like many men, you know, believe that they can do anything and then they fail because they can't, whereas women are kind of the opposite. But I think we need to like put ourselves out there more. Like I didn't want to be CEO of my own company that fare with my name. What, Like, that's crazy. Cheryl Sandberg has a lot to say about that. She says that I said to her, oh my god, Jeffrey Katzenberg called me back, and she's like, you would never say that if you were a man being you with the success you've had. Of course, Jeffrey Catsenberg called you back. But that's the whole conversation for another day about gender and things that I never have thought of. Um, all right, this was amazing. This was overshot the market in a way that empowers women, like you know, like at the end of the day, like like that's all, Like I'm I'm more about like using it as a way like I I think, like I love the sharing my story to like empower people, to show them that they can do anything. You know. Yeah, of course it's amazing. You're very inspiring and it was a really amazing conversation. I could literally talk to you for hours. So I want to make a special episode about that conversation about like mistakes that we make and things we don't see and under a demating ourselves and yes, a little bit of getting sucked over. Um, this was beyond So I'm thrilled to meet you. I can't wait to meet you in person. I'm thrilled to meet you too. Yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna lie like I was very excited. So thank you so much. Oh yeah, well I was to congratulations on your success and loved your family and I'm so proud of you, and I look forward to speaking to you again. Awesome. I look forward to it too, and thank you and congratulations to you. What an amazing conversation. I mean, you know, you never know how big or small someone's businesses, which isn't that relevant, I mean it's somewhat relevant. But Baked by Melissa is are these small, delicious, bite sized cupcakes. It's a concept, it's unique. My daughter loves them. It's New York based, so I know about it. But I just know it's a brand, no matter how big or small, and it's a brand that is backed by a woman. And I'm was just so incredibly thrilled to talk to her. Uh just about her business and her experience, but I got so much more out of the conversation. What an inspiring human being. I'm just absolutely floored by her story, her honesty, her vulnerability, her challenges or strengths or weaknesses, and out of the conversation came a topic that I've thought about before, but I didn't even consciously realize I wanted to talk about, which is women that I know of starting their own small businesses who sort of get blindsided or seemed to be blindsided by partnerships or mistakes they never thought that they would make, an obstacles they never thought they'd face. So I may want to kind of talk about that in a future podcast. Anyway, wonderful conversation, really really good one. Thank you for listening, Rate, review, and subscribe. Have a wonderful day.