Jeffrey Katzenberg

Published Oct 5, 2021, 7:30 AM

On life-changing advice and the value of community service

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Recently I posted something that was the creation of my daughter Brent. So we went to Chinatown. We went to dim sum and we love that as a ritual and it's so fun. They come up with the carts and uh, it's just creative and it's just an adventure. And Brin and I always do these sort of experiential cultural things together, particularly around food um and we have gone before, but this time the ducks hanging in the window really affected her. She just, you know, it bothers her and she doesn't want to look and she wants to walk by it. And when she was younger, she was a vegetarian. She loves animals, I mean really loves animals. We have to rescue dogs that her babies. They're her brothers. She's obsessed with them, and she loves the idea of just rescue and understands the difference and thinks they're so lucky, which they are. We rescued them from North to Shore animally. And that night I was in my bedroom and I overheard her talking out loud. I thought it was a book report. At first, I couldn't forget what she was doing, and then I heard her just sounded like a little activist. She was like, stand up for animal rights, and she was talking so emphatically and it was like a grown up And I had no idea that she had also found all of this footage online that animal cruelty. And so she said to me, right now, I'm going vegetarian again. I don't and she didn't say vegan, and she kind of knows the difference, but uh, I don't know that she wouldn't eat every cookie she sees, and I don't know how deep she would go. And it's not that easy and even it's just not that easy, even for someone who has access, and we're in New York. It's not that easy to do um as, particularly for a little kid and your birthday parties. And so she'll do the best that she and like she did last time. But she had these videos of kill shelters and of puppy mills, and she spoke with such passion, and I decided to post it, and I decided to make it part of Be Strong My Relief effort that we would raise money under her initiative and distribute it to different animal charities, including north Shore Animal League, who I got Biggie and smallst from and all the comments. I was surprised that the comments were so positive, and just also relating to the fact that I had said, we, you know, we are ninety vegetarian because she doesn't really just like me to begin with, and neither do I. It'll be rare that I'll have something I don't. You know, my fiance eats protein every meal, animal protein every meal, and it has increasingly bothered me more just seeing it and knowing what the animal actual is actually is, and it's just something that I've thought about it, and I've evolved more towards. And I've heard the stories about uh animal is being separated from their mothers so that so the mother cows I guess have more milk in them, and then there, I guess better for slaughter, and that that you hear screaming with the babies when they're being separated from their mother and it made me think about how, you know, and then people said that they hunt, but then they have to eat what they kill, and you know all these rules for it. And I have leather, and I have the crocodile bags in my closet and I years ago post for Peter, I'd rather go naked than wear fur and then stopped wearing fur, but I still had certain vintage things in my closet that were hard to get rid of, and some things that had for trim on them. And you know I have leather bags and and some and leather pants, and you know I don't always ask if there's a soup, but as chicken stocks, so you know there's there's You could go so far with this, and it's funny because you know, Brim was saying it's murder and they didn't ask to be killed. And so many people related to this on my post, and there were a couple of people said, please don't shame people for eating meat. I absolutely am not, and I definitely said vegetarianism because I didn't want to pay myself into some corner that I'm not in and that I don't so that I don't fully understand it. It's that I'm I've done the best that I can at certain points and then quote unquote fallen off and then gotten back on. It's just been a general awareness that I've had, but I would really love it if I could not eat animals. I intellectually and emotionally understand this perspective that brand has and it seems like a lot of other people do also, and they find that it's hard, or it's hard for their kids, or they really wish they could Some people, many people said, I did it because of this and because of X Y or Z, and I've never felt better. I had these health issues which are gone. Many people said my child also was the reason that I stopped eating me because they were passionate about it, and I just found it to be so interesting. We had They were like, she got like eighteen hundred comments and about three hundred thousand views on this post and thousands of dollars. And Paul, my fiance, who eats meat and eats chicken all the time, we had a he had a vegan meal last time, and he said he really wanted to try and make an effort. And we read that Serena Williams or somebody said, you try, like you do one thing one day at a time. You don't just go in all the way. You do meatless Monday, they said, and then vegan taco Tuesday, and you sort of try to ease yourself in. But it really is sort of awakened me to this. And so many companies, you know, Burger King, and McDonald and major companies have moved in this direction. It's got to be because of demand. If you walk into any supermarket or healthy store or Trader Joe's, it's obviously so prep prevalent. So we're all thinking about it. And I thought about how, you know, certain animal rights uh charities bully people, and I don't think that's the way to do it, the same way that I thought in politics, to get people to agree with you is not to bully them. Then people were secretly voting. So I've seen that. I know a lot of people who pretend that they don't or for, but then they secretly wear for or you know, or just a habit, but are afraid they're just gonna sort of get caught and get trolled. And trolling is not the answer. A conversation and education is the answer. It being what people have been doing on Instagram and saying I to wish I could, and I'm trying. You know, Paul, my fiance does not like vegetables. Okay, he doesn't like vegetables. He likes mescal and greens. He will not even he just doesn't and he doesn't like fruit. So for a person like that, I mean he doesn't like avocado or anything. So for a person like that, if they're trying to go vegan without eating all the fake meat, it's going to be a process and going to be an education and going to be a lot of work and going to be a lot of resources. And you know, does he need a chef to help him because he's busy and a lot of smoothies and nut butter and things like that and nut milks, and it's not that easy. So I think it's better for all of us to sort of talk about it and say what we're struggling with, if that's a goal of ours um and just not be so sort of black or white about it that it's like we're all being in a million present vegan or we are animal haters and killers. And it's funny because I was thinking about the slaughterhouses and some of these movies. Ellen told me to watch a movie one time. I forgot what it's called, something like the Best Movie I'll Ever See or something. It's a movie about this and the guy tells us educates, just educates us as to the fact that animals have instincts. So he likened it to the fact that people knew that they were going to be incinerated, and saying that animals have instincts and they know that they're going to be slaughtered, you know the screaming and all that stuff that they know that. So I was thinking and I thought it was when I heard the Michael Vick thing, I thought it was the worst thing I've ever heard in my life, Like he should never be playing football again. Oh my god. I thought it was the worst thing ever. And um, he did play football again, and it was because he arranged all of these dog fights, so it was proactively intentionally having dog fight with each other. Uh so people could bet on it. And I thought it was the worst thing ever, and it is the worst thing ever. But if am I a hypocrite? Because is it worse than animals being tortured? But I have bags that are derived to my process, but I just don't know about it. So I'm not the person that organized the fight, but I'm one of the people watching the fight and just standing by. So is that the same thing for Paul? If anybody who's eating meat that if they're educated and they know that these animals know that they're being slaughtered, or they're definitely being tortured, and then other people say, well, there are more humane ways to kill, so then we're deciding how something should be killed. And you just should listen to my daughter's video because it was really just interesting. She said, like, what did they do? Why? You know, it's just it's murder, but it just happens to be legal. So I'm not preaching to you, and I'm not telling you that I'm right and you're wrong, and because I'm definitely not right and I'm wrong in many ways, I'm just saying it's a conversation. It's certainly worth a conversation. It's worth education. You know, there are so many I'm a natural food chef. I went to school for food and healing. There are so many amazing things. I made something out of jackfruit the other day. I didn't know what it was, but I see it on a lot of these healthy menus and ended up making this barbecue shred jackfruit for tacos, and my both my assistants and myself and my daughter who's eleven, freaked out because we couldn't believe how much it taste of like actual chicken and a taco. So if you take a little time and you're a little creative and a little adventurous. There are a lot of things that taste like me. So that's just you know, a lot of mock doc and you don't want to get unhealthy and eating all fake foods. That's one of the problems, Like people don't want to be boxed in a corner, but people also in their own lives feel they can't be boxed in a corner. For Tom Brady said he's mostly plant based, so there's a percentage to what he's plant based. And then Serena Williams also, people probably don't want to publicly be boxed in a corner because then I'll be you know. The guy who I'm partners within my charity said to me, well, you know, if we post this, Bethany eats meat, and you know, and I really don't eat meat like a lot at all, but I don't not eat it. So he didn't want me to get sort of busted. And that's a big thing to fear based lack of conversation. So Serena Williams made sure, she said, and I'm sure she didn't count, you know, with a statistic statistician or wherever you say that neither did I, but I'm pretty aware that it's about but you don't want to be boxed into it. And also you might be boxed into it because you might be on a road trip somewhere and then feel guilty. But I know that it bothers me more than it used to. So that's good news for me and great that she's already that age and thinking like that. So what do you all think? Have you thought about going vegetarian or vegan? They say that the dairy is equally, if not as bad as the meat, and then if you're not eating organic meat, it's got so many antibiotics. My partner, Michael Caponi in relief work, who's vegan, he told me that it's connected to all the disasters because he said the foss is something about the fossil fuels, so he there are many different reasons to consider, and I feel like people and people also said negative things about Peter. You know, I'm sure they may have mistakes. I don't know what they are. I don't know that much about it. It's not like disaster relief where the money is going exactly from my hands to the victims. So I'm not the one hand I've actually rescued dogs in Puerto Rico, but I'm not the one handing the aid to the dogs. I know that my dogs came from North tra Animal League. I know that Pete is doing more than most people for this meeting. They do care about it. I don't think it's like a scam. Some people have problems with that, but I'm saying I think that whoever these organs are, someone mentioned to me. A couple of other ones, like something sea shepherd, I think, and one one about beagles because they use beagles for testing or something. But I think that any change that anyone could make would make a difference. So what about if you feed your family met animal five nights a week and you just all of a sudden now change it to three nights a week. That would obviously mean less purchasing. And what about if you're honest about the fact that most people don't really like the turkey as much as all the other fun stuff. And what if someone just does a campaign to like have a turkey list Thanksgiving. I mean, it is a crazy thing that we just decide that we're going to just kill a bunch of turkeys for a holiday like that does seem screwed up, and the movie Turkey Run or whatever did seem like a good message, like I do not need to eat turkey at Thanksgiving. I could tell you that that is not necessary if it's just for you know, because it's marketing. That's no less marketing than people saying they hate Valentine's Day because it's designed by Hallmark. At least it's people eating chocolates. It's not killing anything. So I just think we should think more about this. And I'm my and my daughter created a conversation. It is a fact. It is crazy the comments. So I was shocked. So just let me know what you all think. I'm curious what you all think today. My guest is Jeffrey Katzenberg. Wow, I mean, what an honor would a fascinating in conversation. During his time with Walt Disney Studios, their value grew from two hundred million dollars to eight billion dollars. He talks to me about bringing the magic back to Disney and now he is taking his innovative spirit to the tech world. He's a company called wonder Co, which is how I found him because we are both invested in the same business. I love his advice that in business and in life, you have to exceed people's expectations to succeed. He's on so much in philanthropy. He's an incredible family life and a beautiful marriage. You're not gonna want to miss this one. He is fascinating and humble and brilliant. So where did you grow up? Um? I grew up in New York City on the Upper East Side. Uh, actually had a pretty privileged childhood, went to private school and New York and um sort of at a you know, a very uh advantaged I think, and pretty great. Uh. You know family life. Do you ever feel guilty about that? No? Okay, with success something that was instilled into you. Did your parents ever worry like you might worry about your kids if you wouldn't work as hard because you came from that kind of a background. I do know people who come from money, and you know, the next generation is never quite as motivating. So yeah, so, UM, I think a couple of things about it. So UM one, M my my parents, UM, we're generous and philanthropic. Um. My father always carried around a lot of cash and if you were lucky enough to cross paths with him, he would make your day. And I always asked him, why do you do that? So literally, if somebody opened a door for him, or a waitress and a restaurant, or uh, somebody panhandling on the street or playing an instrument or whatever it's he was amazing in that way. And I I always said to him, why do you you know, I asked why do you do that? And he said, you should take care of those that take care of you, and they can't take care of themselves. And I thought, wow, And he said, look at the smiles on the faces that happened each and every time. And you know, I'm lucky enough. I'm lucky enough to be able to share this, and it's just one of many ways of being able to to do it. And so that generosity, that spirit of sharing giving, you know, it's I grew up with it, right. I saw it every day, every everywhere I went with him, you know, he would spread his his his happiness. Um. I then, very very early on, I went to work in city government, and so I worked in service for first five or six years of my career for John Lindsay when he was Mayor of New York. And h understood then in an amazing way what it means to not have uh and to um, you know, where I was able to see up close every day, you know, a harder side and made me appreciate it and taught me values. And you know, I moved out of my home when I was very young and supported myself and so I grew up in a privileged household and then made it out onto my own pretty early on. And I think those were the formative years that you know, sort of contribute more than anything else to you know, who I became. What did you want to be when you grew up? And what did your parents want to You wanted to be a fireman, of course, and did you did you do anything? Did you ever? Did you ever go on that path? Are you? I'm talking about as a five or six or two five? Okay? So no, when you when you were in high school, what did you think you were going to do with your life? I had no idea, and I, uh, you know that's where you know, I ended up volunteering for John Lindsay's campaign when he ran for mayor, and uh, you know, did some really exciting things and then was invited to come along and join you know, his administration as a as a young kid, and um, you just wanted to get on the road. I was like that, like, get in the car and be going somewhere and it'll take you so many different directions, but just do your best at whatever you're doing, So get in. You know. That's how I've always and you know, uh I, you know, I always realized that I I did good by doing good and R oh, it's a great R O I R. And it means well, what you said earlier, I think a lot. You know, you could be in a taxi or in a hair salon and someone's helping you are a waitress. It means so much more to them than it does to you to be so generous. And it's funny because I do a lot of relief work and the bulk of the donations are from teachers, yoga teachers, nurses, you know, because they understand the difference five dollars can make. So it is always so interesting. It's it's not always really that that it's that it's the wealthy that are donating. It's often just people coming together. There's a lot, there's such a strength in numbers. Um, would you as your family academic? My father was a stockbroker. Uh and uh, you know my mom and artist, um and so no, and what with you've managed? What's the greatest number of people you've ever managed? Uh? Well, I guess probably later years at the Disney Company, maybe twelve thousand people. So what is your management style? What was it? And what have you learned? Because I find that that's challenging finding good people managing or you know, and I'm so organized, but that's something that I'm always interested to hear someone's culture and true management mistakes and successes. Well, that's a long time ago, Bethany, And I don't I'm not sure that you know. I would I look back today and say, well, you know that worked for that moment, that time. The culture of the society, you know, the work ethic, it was different then. I mean, you know, I'm infamous for having said and somewhere in the nineteen eighties, if you don't come to work on Saturday, don't bother coming on Sunday. I know, but I get it. You know what the thing is, you had to scale that back. And I get why because we're all on our tippy toes about everything. But I get it's not the same as it used to be. I came up working with Jerry and Linda Bruckheimer, like you just worked all the time. You were so excited to have the job. You didn't care what you were asked. You worked twenty four hours a day, went on call, and that was it. That was, that was, and that's why I'm here today. That that's arguably why you're there today. Nobody really successful doesn't work their ass off. Jerry is my literally oldest friend. At dinner with him two nights ago. And Linda okay, uh and um, you know. But but here's the thing about it. You know, uh it is um you know when I said that, I you know, I meant it because I came to work with such excitement and such enthusiasm. So it was a little bit of tongue in cheek, but not totally. But that's the environment that you know, I wanted to be in those I wanted to be surrounded by people who felt the same way, who wanted to do it. So it's not for everybody. And I would say the same thing is true today. You know it Quimby, you know where you know at a couple of hundred, you know gen z Ers, you know, the average age was twenty nine years old. Um, everybody that came to work there was on a mission, and they understood that we had a high bar a very short period of time, that we were trying to do something halfway between improbable and impossible and high risk. And uh, if it works high reward, you didn't come work there, if you didn't sign on for that. It was never a nine to five opportunity. And I'm not knocking nine to five. I'm just saying that's not what that opportunity was. And so I really do believe that, you know, you don't have to work the way I do or the how I do. You have to find the right way for you to be productive, to achieve the goals that you set for yourself, you know, to be successful within the work environment that you find yourself in. And and there's no you know, there's no single, one size fits all to this. You're right, it's not not it's not for everybody. But you've done a fairly good job in your business life, so you know whatever, You're not living in France drinking cappuccino for three hours during the day, so that's just not your I'm certainly not nor do I have any intentions were doing right? So, um, well, I guess is well, management is different than the lead, so you're so hold on. So so do you think that you would not be cut out for that kind of job today because of the way that the world has changed in the way that you are. You have to adapt, you know, not all of us. You know, you're not the same person today that you were a week ago, let alone years or thirty years ago. So now the world is changing, The world is evolving. I mean, listen, we're in the moment of the most disruptive thing to you know, modern society, a pandemic, and everything is a reset off of what it used to be. We're never going back to the way it was. We're just not. And anybody who thinks that we're going to return to the same rhythms of work, life, child rearing, you know, partnerships, friendships, romance, like, everything has changed, and some things will be much better out of it, and some things will be nostalgic for the way it used to be. Right, but it's all changing. I thought initially, and I still think that people, you know, realistic commercial real estate changed so much because people realize how much they could do with so much less. And obviously air travel and hotel travel. So what have you found has been the biggest surprise that you don't need that you thought you needed, and that you're changing forever. Uh travel for business the amount of travel that I did for business is literally that thing. I don't think there. You know, for thirty years, I don't think there was ever ten days that I wasn't on an airplane literally, you know, you know there was a six year period of time I went to China once a month. Wow, And that seems crazy to you now, Yeah, not just because of COVID, just because of the taxing on your body, the dehydration, the pack and yeah, that's it. Didn't that didn't. I was fine with that that. You know, I'm a warrior. You know that George Clooney movie Up in the Air, that's me. So I know I was fine with that. I'm just saying the unnecessary uh investment, that you can survive without it. I like to be with people, I like to be face to face. I think I'm more effective when I'm in the room where it happens as opposed to doing it, you know, over zoom. But it's not essential. All right, there's a quality to it and and a reward to it. That is, you know, I think less, you know, just you know, it's just it's just not doesn't have the same quality to it for for for my own needs, not for mine, not for the results. Yeah, I understand. I understand exactly what you're saying. Do you you said you're a warrior? Have you always felt that you are a warrior? Did you think you had something unique very young? Or did the confidence of being successful at things make you more of a warrior? I came out of the womb this way, Okay, as my mom she tell you that, it's okay, I like, I like that. It's good to know. You know, eight years old, I was out shoveling snow on the sidewalks of New York and getting fifty cents from the shop owners. You know, like I've been, you know, industrious and driven and ambitious and you know, self starter, you know, my whole life and a lot of your friends are game changer, Maverick mobiles warriors. Do you feel it's the same for all of them? They were just born this way. This is just who they are, you know what, No two stories the same there are eight million stories in the Naked City, and no two of them are the same, and the same would be of Hollywood. If you had to describe how your trajectory and if I get numbers wrong, this is just what I've researched of taking Disney from two billion to twenty two billion? What was your goal? How did you do that? How do you think you did it? Being you know, the Monday morning quarterback? Now? Yeah, so, uh that you're talking about the Walt Disney Company and that really I was just the Walt Disney Studios. So that's that. That two to twenty two is Michael Eismer. I was the Walt Disney Studios, which went from two hundred million in revenue too about eight and a half billion. So that's my little I had. I had a piece of the burg that wasn't the whole Enchilada. So mine was just the movies, TV and animation and Disney Channel and home video and all of that stuff. Did you was it a vision? Was it Chess versus Checkers? Like? What was going on? Well, we you know inherited you know, literally one of the greatest you know legacies, um, you know that had been created by any buddy before Walt Disney, and um, you know, I think he left an amazing road map, uh and you know, a vision for what was the best version of it. We happened to be. We arrived at a moment in time in which it was sort of bottomed out and just by a failure of previous you know, post Disney. And two when we arrived, the stewards of the place didn't really know what to do with it, um, and so it had sort of lost its way. Um. But the assets there and the legacy and the um uh creativity of what he you know, founded the place on, the values, all of those things, Yeah, they were all there. And and you know all you had to do was honestly open your eyes and come to work every day. And you know, I you know, the thing that I think probably uh, you know, I'm more identified with than than than anything else, is just the resurgence of the animation. And I have to say, you know, in every respect, I am just a student of and was a student of Walt Disney. And he had this archive of his work and his work process that was so clear. It was, you know, such a precise path to follow, and so you know, he is the one that said, I make movies for children, and the child that exists in every one of us. North Star, just get up every day and just follow that idea, right Like that's just such a fundamental, defining quality that you just don't ever step an inch off of that pathway he said, he said, my movies are only as good as their villain. So think about that. You've been around storytelling, think about the clarity of that, and I can tell you what did that produce during my tenure there Ursula jeffore Gaston scar Knowing what the threat is, the line that all things adhere to it simplifies things. So you basically just said that you were going with a blueprint written years ago that was working, if not sort of complicated and mucked up. So I think that's good for people with smaller businesses who think that the core of the business is good, but they can't figure out how to get the crap out of the way. I think that was really interesting. And then also thinking, because I was going to before I ask you about leadership after management, which often involves inspiring, I think what you just said, which was not which was you know, not reinventing the wheel that's inspiring that that seems like that was your leadership mechanism to tell people to bring back the spirit of this amazing company. So I think that's that's at that's a that's a great thing for me to take away and for people to take away from this, you know, And you didn't overcomplicate it, well, I mean, he was a visionary and we didn't need to improve on his vision. We just needed to return to it and the values of it. And yes, the world had changed, and you know, this was in theties and fifties that you know, he was a visionary, but the values, you know, the qualities were the same. Now, you know, we then went into the era of television and the cable TV and home video and you know, so how to build out and expand the brands, but live within you know those you know, core values. Yeah, you have to have been some level of a corporate person to you know, move up the ranks in that way. And a lot of people don't know whether they're corporate or a maverick or an entrepreneur, and many people are both. It's obvious that you're both. How does someone who's working in a corporate environment with hundreds or thousands of people or dozens people. How do they rise up, how do they stand out? How do they play frogger and and get to the top. Well, you know, I would say, well one has always been for me is hard work, right, But you know, um, some of its luck, some of its luck that you make for yourself. Um. I think among the things that were my luck, my good fortune is I actually got a couple of great mentors and my career who in many ways maybe even saw more in me than I saw on myself. And you know, one of them was somebody that I worked with. Uh you know when in the back of the John Lindsay and pain this. Uh, two people said, David Off and Dick Ailio. Um, you know, we're really you know, two of his top three or four people. And they took me under their wing. They saw in somebody, you know, an ambition of creativity, uh, you know, an enthusiasm. Uh you know, and and you know help me uh focus those two you know, productive outcomes and outputs. Um. You know, Barry Diller hired me when I was twenty three years old, uh, you know as a gopher, you know, as his assistant, and then put me on this career path where and I had I didn't understand that's what he was doing. But every year he would move me from one area of the company another And so I went into marketing and into distribution, you know, into international and and and and then you know, when I was twenty eight or twenty nine years only maybe president of the oar Amount Studios. Right and in hindsight, so they're not organized mentors. You know, he he with a plan put me on a path to get to this like you know, he invested in me for a decade, right and and and and I didn't understand it at the time. He expectly expressed it to me, but you know he had a plan for me, and he mentored my career. I want to do that. I never say that. I never like have a plan for a person, even though I think that people could go all the way. And I'll say that, but I love that not only for the person who wants to look for the mentor, but for the person to look for someone underneath them. I think the day Barry highed me, he saw someone who could go the whole distance. And I was going to make sure that I learned and had the experience that if I could succeed, I actually have been equipped, trained, learned how to actually do the job. I didn't get there because I got lucky and one something took off fantastic. And so I've been as I said, I've been blessed to have you know, three of those in my career people who were real, you know, real mentors for me. And they weren't just around work. I had an amazing mentor around philanthropy, which was Kirk Douglas. You know, that's a whole another story we can get into at some point. But going back on the work side of it. Uh, I think the thing that I realized and I was never articulate about it in my early years, but I did come to understand it later, um, which is it really became sort of my um, I don't know what would you you know, like my mission statement. It's real simple to words, exceed expectations. And what I saw just as almost like Pablau right, which is, give me an assignment, and if I did it really well, the person I did it for rewarded me by either giving me more, bigger, better, whatever those things were. And so that of get a challenge, and it didn't matter whether it was literally go downstairs and get coffee and Danish, or get a script into some person's hand, or sign somebody to do it. That by exceeding expectations of my bosses, it actually produced a great outcome time and time and time again. And so I just kept trying to always do that. And then as I sort of got on a bit in my career, I started to realize that, um, being in a consumer business, which I well I have been for my mostly, the reward there is exceeded the expectation of your customer. So if you made a movie and people came to see the movie it was better than they thought, you had a smash. And the same thing was through of a TV show, And the same thing was through of you know, soundtrack for a movie or you know stuff animal or I don't care pick any of those things. If the quality of what you somebody received and returned for you know, uh, you know, paying for subscribing or whatever it is, if the quality was more than they actually expected, they became loyal to you and loyal to your brand, and um, you know it just it constantly became rewarding for me. And I then started to realize, well, Okay, you know what take that the next step, and um, I should. I'd like to try and exceed the expectations of the people that I work with. Right so, not just the people I work for, but actually people that I work with every day. Are there things that I can do so that things don't become wrote you know, staff meetings don't become the same all the time that you know, the repetition of those things, they lose their edge. And so I always think about, you know, how do I exceed the expectations of the people that I work with? And then I went the next step with that and thought, well, what are the other things that are super important to me? And in terms of each one of them, I'm actually going to think about how do I exceed their expectations. So my friends, you know, all of us can't have too many friends. Yeah, well, I put a big investment to my friends. You know, I am always trying to exceed their expectations, you know, calling them before they're calling me, you know, showing up for them when they don't expect it, and being there you know when they have a need. And I do that for my kids. I try to exceed the expectations of them, you know, it gets And then finally I married forty seven years and I tried to exceed the expectation of my wife. That's a high bar. Yeah, And I love that because I love that because I've been thinking as you as I turned fifty, about you know, how to be a better friend and how to always show up for people even if I don't. I'm not the type of person that I'm very antisocial, so I don't need a lot of that sort of attention, but to try to give it to my friends who really do need it. I just like that. And I always say good enough is not good enough. So that's the next level. What you're saying is the next level, Well, here's what that is. In Fundamentally, it means you need to be a giver and not a taker. And I do think that we tend to fall into We the human race tends to fall into those two categories. People are either fundamentally givers where they're fundamentally takers. And do you think they can change? Yeah? I do. I think they do change. I mean, there's no there's no question that. Um, yes, the answer is yes. And I think I think people can be takers at one point in their life and become givers at another point in our life. We've seen that all the time, you know, we see that. You know, one of the greatest philanthropists of our time, Bill Gates, he was a taker. He's the number one giver. What are you not good at? I don't know. Well, how do you? How do you accept defeat if you lose in a game of sports or you fail at something that you learn more from your failures and your successes. But I would say to you left me me I I I put it in this perspective that. So I'll start by saying to you, I'm humbled by my failures. Um I I never I always have owned my failures every at any point along God knows, having made fo some odd movies, and I have lots of failures, right, So I'm I'm, I'm I understand it, and I have always believed in owning my failures. And as you said, my greatest lessons come from my misses, not from the things that I've done that are successful. But having said that, let me give you a qualifier in context of what I just said to you, which is, show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser. Ah, right, That's a great line. When you know something's not going well, what's your what? What? What are your tools? Own it? You can't run from it. You know you own it, and you know you have to take it head on. And and you know those are where the lessons come from. Uh. You know, the last thing that I did at scale, you know, was a complete bust. You know, it was Quimby, you know, and and I busted on a scale that is, you know, almost unprecedented. And I am proud of everything that we did. I'm proud of the work. I'm proud of people that work there. I'm you know, incredibly proud of the work that you know, the talent and filmmakers and storytellers and Hollywood turned out to do lots and lots and lots that I'm proud of. But the thing failed and and you know, for all the great effort and all the time and all the money that was put into it, you know, it was a bust. And that bust is mine. I'm humbled by that bust. I'm not humiliated by it. I'm you And I think we all too often go too far, we go to humiliation, you know, around our failures, and I don't. I think you can be. It's not always the case, but I think if you're you know, many times, you can actually, as I said, take pride in the things that you've done, even when they haven't worked, and you know, have as I said, have humility around it. Well, that's a great point because you're not complaining and you're not necessarily explained. Somethings just don't work like it could be. I had a talk show and the guy UM, and I didn't love doing it, which I hate to say, because, like you, there were so many amazing people, and I didn't feel that it was right for me. But it was only and it wasn't renewed, and I was sort of secretly relieved. Um. But the guy, Mike Darnell, said that it did better than the talk show before me. But at the time, the president of the company was fired and somebody else was fired and there was nobody watching the show, and who cares. The point is it just didn't have work. Like not everything is going to work like it just doesn't. It could be the timing, it could be the day. It could be one mistake, it could be the combination. It could be just like magic in the wrong direction. But in our world, the one that you've worked in, grown up in, made a career in and mind more often than not, I think that the vulnerability of creative people who put themselves out on a limb, those misses, those failures are are you know, they're very painful and their heart and they and they feel a public embarrassment around them. And in a way that's maybe what makes some great artists like that they care that much. You know, having watched so many great careers, I don't the very very best of them are coaster. Nobody bats about, nobody bats it right, and so you know, and and you know, you can be a you know literally you know, uh, you know, the best baseball player in the world. And you know that That's what I'm saying to you. So it's funny because I did stand up comedy for the first time and the only time last year, and I called people that I knew. There was Ellen Degenerous or Kathy Griffin, or texted Chris Rock, who I cold texted. I just sort of knew him, and everyone gave me advice and I forget who it was that I was talking to, and I said, oh, Kevin Nealen I said, I want to understand if you're prepared. Of course there's gonna be elements, and there could be something politically incorrect, but generally speaking, if you're prepared and you've done this so many times, how could they fail? How could Jerry Seinfeld ever failed? How could he go up and bomb? And Kevin Nelon says, because if you're not, if you if you're taking chances, I mean, if you're taking chances, you have the opportunity to fail. So you know, that's what I think is going is the situation you just described. We'll take my baseball analogy one step further, right, if you don't swing for the fence, it's not possible to hit a home run. So and you also have to understand that if you're going to walk up to that plate and you're going to swing for the fence, there's a chance you're gonna have a pop out to the infield. Like if Quimby had succeeded, it would have succeeded to the fences. And if it failed, you said it was a ship storm. So that's I get it. Do you crowdsource at all? Um? Is everything just gout instinct in every are of your life. I have always welcomed other people's uh, you know, opinions and points of view and collaboration. I don't think I've ever made a movie and you didn't put it in front of a movie audience before it was finished. They're the ones that we work for, is the audience. Uh. You know, I loved working on Broadway because of the iterative nous of that um creative process that it's it's almost like a partnership that you have with an audience in which you're constantly creating and evolving, uh, something on its feet as it goes. And you know, I think collaboration is, you know, one of the things, one of the more rewarding things. It's not a solo sport. I'm not in a solo sport. I've never been solo sport. And you know, there are people that are that do it. They rely on lots of other people to you know, realize their singular vision. What most great filmmakers do. Um, so they have partners in realizing what. You know. Steven Spielberg's greatest storyteller of our time. You know, he has a very singular vision for each and every movie that he's ever made. I've watched him up close and I've just seen his process and uh, you know, he relies on lots of people to realize the best version of what he has imagined and created. But it's his is He's the author. I understand every every respect I don't. I've never been the author. I understand. So so the reason that we connected is because I, um, what I like to say is cold called you. So I had been interested in the points space and telling everyone at home I had been interested in the points space, the airline hotel miles points space, and I reached out to this guy about this business and he said, Jeffrey Katzenberg is an investor, and um, I liked the business. It sounded like a hidden chocolate surprise in the box of Cracker Jackson. I said, oh, and I emailed you and just said, hey, um, I might be investing in something that this person says that you're part of. And you immediately said, hey, you know, when should we chat? And then we talked and we spoke, and I you know, I spoke to Cheryl Sandberg about this. She was like, of course he called you back. I was like, I'm shocked that he got I mean I was surprised that you remind me back. It was like, I mean, I was humbled. Then I said to you that a podcast, and I'm so grateful that you're here because it's even exceeding my expectations. Um so listening, well, we'll see at the end of it, showing up exceeded you. But the real question is is if at the end of it we did good. It's already exceeding, right. So I appreciate you responding to me. I'm excited about the business. It's part of your next chapter, which is wonder co And so how do you and that's the main thing you're focused on, that's your your whole So how do you explain that to people? Uh? Actually kind of fun. So when I sold DreamWorks, uh, you know, five years ago, and you know, just the thought process around that is that, as I said, if I go from you know, the beginning of my career over in the entertainment business, I have been associated with involved in in proximity to over four movies, forty one animated UH films, over ad TV shows, five Broadway plays. At that point, I said, dropped the mic. Ah, so you didn't know what the hold of them went to follow them. There was a it's just I'd done it. I really like, I didn't, you know. And and as I say, it's not to say that I didn't love every every one of those and the doing was incredible, but I didn't feel there was anything new for me there. And and it wasn't the tables going cold. It was just that you could do it in your sleep. No, just the opposite, you know, we you know how to train your dragon and trolls and all sorts of try and deal with Netflix. And no it the company was doing well, which is why they bought it, you know. Com Kyles came along in both the company for four billion dollars. Not because it was doing badly, you know, knock good. It was doing well enough that somebody else saw great value. And and as I said, at that moment in time, I just, you know, because I knew someday, you know, it was there was no question about if someday dream Works would be sold, it was when. And so the moment in time when they showed up, I asked myself one literally one question. If I were twenty two years old today, would I be doing what I'm doing today going forward? Or would I be doing something else. Great question, right, and I just said, I said, actually no, If I were starting out today and I were twenty two years old, and I would say that right now again today I would be in digital technology. I actually believe today that what I experienced in the movie and entertainment business in the seventies, just when I was starting now, that excitement, that enthusiasm, that ambition, that opportunity, that world changing impact that movies and television had in the seventies is what digital technology has today. And that's what I wanted to be a part of it. And by the way, I don't know anything about it, I mean other than I use it and it's around me and every one of us, and so I'm aware. I used actually digital technology and our movie making and you know, we were you know, Dream, which was a state of the art digital animation studio and it so besides, I didn't know anything about digital technology and gaming and all of these things that we're sort of exploding. Uh. You know, if you look at the impact of digital technology in the last years, there's almost no facet of your life that you can't say that digital technology has not impacted, mostly for the better, but that microphone that's in front of you, the ear phones that you're wearing, the fact that we are having this communication, the where we are, and as yeah, like you, everything has been impacted by this. And yet I will tell you that if you look at the next ten years, I actually think the impact of digital technology will be ten x so literally an order of magnitude greater in the next ten years than the last ten years. And I think that's a pretty hard thing for any of us to imagine what that needs until you start to dive in and you see today and it's amazing to me, Bethany, which is it's mostly twenty year olds, it's literally three and they've been doing this since they were fourteen or fifteen, and I'm just blown away by their ingenuity, their ambition, their visions, their boldness, and it touches across anything that you could pick like you wherever, whatever the world is of medicine today and how we all um uh you know, how health and health sciences exist today. The revolution that is going to occur around everything, like the like the way we grew up, You're going to doctor's offices and you know, get getting a you know a crown, uh, there's this wonderful company in you are called Dandy that is now digitized all of this, Like we'll say, come in a little wand and instead of waiting you know, to you know, two weeks, you know, and sticking a plaster in your mouth and all of that stuff in three days later, perfect Crown shows back up here and and this and you know this is you know, from a from a young guy who literally had like four hours of themthel work done, who went, this is nuts. There's not to be a better way of doing this. Yep, guess what he's going to build a multibillion dollar business on that changing the way in which anyway I get off here on this But no, I know that's and that's so that's what wonder comes. There's a there's a there's a guy that you know that that we met a company called the Tomy that actually is using AI. Two uh answer UM customer needs. So any kind of customer response where any of us are calling a company because we didn't get something or didn't show up or can we get more information? The level of automation he has created UM using machine learning and AI too. Now he's better response, the more a better resolution than anybody else doing it today, just by the use of digital technology. And so I watch and I see these people today who have grown up. This is you know, they were they were born into this. You know, you and I were along for the ride. But it sounds like you're being fed by all of this. It's so interesting to you. And it's like the world of imagination like Disney, and you're listening to all these other quote unquote authors and you're inspired. That's what it sounds like. That's that's now how I understand the intersection of this points business that you invested in through Wonder Cool, and that's how we connected, which is amazing. Yeah, I mean that's a young entrepreneur who has a really really big idea, which is all of us. And I'm sure this is. I mean, you and I talked about this, which is you know, as I said to you, I lived on an airplane. I have more miles and bonuses and like crazy, I don't know how to use it. You well know, it's the only I was saying, And well, it's the only thing that no one that I know is an authority on everybody's authority on travel, on restaurants, on this, on your computer, on your phone, on fashion, on everything. Everyone knows everything about everything. Nobody knows anything about points. It's like a different language. No one understands that this one's got chase, this one's got to m X combined, because there's a reason for that. They don't want us to know. I know, but this is amazing. This is why this is the best business to get into. If you launch a shampoo, there's five thousand shampoos, there's five thousand Saltsas I'm at all these product categories, I can't think of anything else where. No one knows anything about it except for certain savants that I happen to know. So I'm excited. This is our business, which we will talk about soon. What's your rose and your thorn, your high and your low of business? Not of your life? My high? Uh? Interestingly, UM was UM something that just celebrated its twentieth anniversary, believe it or not, so you may remember that after nine eleven, UM, I think all of us, uh, in every part of this country, we're feeling, you know, how do we help? What can we do? You know? Uh? You know, the country had a you know, literally you know, a wound in its heart and uh. You know, for me, I felt, well, the one thing that we all are capable of in our community in Hollywood, um is two Um, maybe bring just a moment of relief that because you know, through our ability to entertain people, whether it's you know, great stories or great music or whatever those things are. And I ended up partnering up with George Clooney too organize a fundraiser that was called Tribute to America, which was the first and most successful telethon ever in this country's history, in which ten days after nine eleven, there was this two hours roadblock across every channel, every you know network, every table, every radio, everybody for two hours. Um. This thing was called Tribute to America, and it had all the greatest artists and athletes and entertainers and all you know, uh in support of trying to bring a little healing at a moment when people were hurting. You know, we're entertainers, that's what we do. And so that's the thing that's you know, nobody ever remembers I'm gonna ever show up on anything, but it is actually the thing I was proudest of doing. It's it's not Shrek or the Lion King or do any of these of those things. And it's just, you know, that was the thing that I just I thought, wow, we really made a contribution to at a moment in time in which you know, the whole country was sort of a neat um thorn. Uh no, no, uh, I guess maybe. Uh. You know I got fired from Disney. You know I didn't I you know, uh. And and it's okay to get fired, you know, one door closes, another one opens, but it's the way I got fired, which is too long a story to tell, but it was. It was humiliating, and and it was, you know, really disappointing. And I looked back at it and I go, it didn't have to be. I wish it hadn't been so sorted. What an amazing answer, because I think about that all the time, that things should be done come in the way you go out like things should be done, clean, breakups, firings, highs. Well, this is well, okay, so this is literally is is that you know, I was in a partnership with someone for eighteen and a half years, and for for eighteen and a half years it was as successful a partnership as you could have in business, right, and both of us prospered unbelievably from it. And then maybe, as in relationships, you know, it ran its course and it was no longer working for for him. I was still working okay for me, but it wasn't working for him, and certainly his right to make that decision. And and and I actually didn't fight it. It It was like, okay, well, let's just do this the nice way. And as you know, we all have friends where you know, they've had great partner ships and marriages for very long periods of time, and at the end they recognize they had a lot of great years together and there's a friendship there, and you can go your separate ways and still root for and care for someone you spent all that you can consciously on couple, even in business. And I thought that's what should have happened. And it's listed literally this was the complete opposite. And trust me, books have been written about it. It was as nasty as it gets in business. And so I look back at that and thank god, you know, I would love a do over on that. I love that. That's a great yeah. And but that's one of that's like a that's another big, big life learning experience. I'm gonna give you. I'm gonna give you. I'm gonna give you the last one at the have a moment here because we of course thought it, and I, uh, it is actually the one of the greatest lessons that I ever learned in my life. And to this day, I try and live by these words. So when I was like eight or nine years old, my dad took me to see a movie called Spartacus. So this is in a late you know, like or seven or nine or somewhere around there. And Spartacus starred Kirk Douglas. And it's hard to understand today, but then Spartacus was Batman like that moment in time. This was like a hero, a genuine hero who sacrifice for the greater good. Blah blah. Okay. So several decades later, I'm making a movie at Disney called Tough Guys, the Last Movie with Burt Lancaster and Kirk Douglas starring in it. And uh, I go one day to have on a lunch break, I have a lunch date with Kirk Douglas and which I'm gonna go see him in his trailer, and uh, when I get to his trailer, he's got all these engineers and people are hard hats and blueprints and all of this. Literally like fifteen of them in it. And as you know, I knocked on the door and he throws them all out and I come in and they go, well, what are you doing, Kurt? What was what was that? And he said, well, uh, I've been doing with my wife Ann. Over the years, we've been rebuilding every year, you know, between ten and twenty playgrounds at public schools. And today was my meeting of the next five playgrounds that we're going to do. And I said, what do you mean. He said, literally, you know that have enough money in the public schools in this and I think that these kids for after school and for you know, recreational breaks and stuff, they should have great places to play, right, And I went wow, I said, I've never heard about this, but how many of you done so well? You know, there's four hundred and fifty schools or whatever it is. He said, I think we've done like a hundred fifty what you know, in each one course a couple hundred thousand dollars and millions and millions and millions of dollars. And he's been doing it for years. And I said, gosh, that's that's really amazing. And I said, you know, it's also incredible as it's like like no one's ever heard about it. And he said yeah, and I said, uh, okay, So why right the question I asked my father, I'm now asking Kirk Douglas And these are the words that he said to me. You haven't learned how to live until you've learned how to give. Oh. I love that and that's so good. And I would say when those words come from Spartacus, yeah, the biggest hero that's it paved your life and all the philanthropy that you do and that's so beautiful. Um, well, then this is a good The last thing I want to ask you, because I asked, it's called I call it successful relationships, and it's people who are both successful who have been together for decades. You obviously have exceeded my expectations on that one too, But I've gotten such amazing, honest advice from Dr Drew yesterday said just each day. It's we've been together for forty years also, I think, but they said every day, it's just about today, and other people say, we give each other space, we check in with each other, So just you know, some not run of the mill advice that was just like cliche, But what really you notice that makes it a successful relationship that you have. I you know, I it's hard to express. I just you know, you know, I look at my wife every day. She's is perfect to me today and is beautiful and uh, you know, uh inspiring to me today as she was the first day I met her and that was fifty years ago. That's amazing. That's beautiful. But so do you work at it? Do you invest in your relationship or just comes easy to you? Do you believe in therapy? Have you had moments where you needed to connect back? Probably we should go we should become research primates because because we're we've never fall we've never had we've had this agreement, never actually had an argument that would you know, where there's a where we stopped talking. You know, we just well your kids are lucky that we don't yell. Nobody's ever you know, never raised my voice to her, never raised your voice to me, you know, and you know we've just agreed to you know, we just we make room for each other in a great way. And my reward is you know, a you know, extraordinary incomparable partnership. And you know, I was going to say, that's your teammates, so there's no reason to or you're on the same team. I think that's something that people need to really having their bodies about relationships. That you're on the same team, which requires trust, you know, which retris so you've been together for so long. I'm just saying, if you say to me, jevery you can close your eyes, open your eyes and pick anybody in the world that you can be with. I pick her. Oh, I can't wait to meet her. I want to meet her. Wow, well please tell her, I said alone. Your kids are very lucky to have role models like you, And it was I'm so grateful. This was one of my I went longer. I could talk to you for hours, Like there's certain people that I just I'm a like a like I'm a sponge too. So thank you so much for this time and this wisdom. And I really appreciate to be with you. Congratulating we appreciate you so bad was extraordinary. I mean, it really just was wisdom. That was like getting a master class. Just please listen to everything he said. It was so authentic, so genuine never does anyone say we have to stop, like he was asking me if he could talk about something else, Like I would have sat here for two hours. I don't want to take up someone's time too much, and I like, I feel like I'd rather leave us wanting a little bit more than than drag it out. But I just have to say at every minute, that was amazing. Thank you for listening, Rate review, and subscribe. We keep going deeper, we keep getting better, We're every time I'm surprised by the things that people say. And in that case, one of my producers just brought up such an insightful thing is that a big business public failure wasn't as a massive monetary failure, wasn't as big of a blow to something nuanced and personal, like to something that sort of felt like it hurt his feelings on some way, you know, it just didn't seem like ethical or correct. So anyway, that was amazing. Thank you for listening. I appreciate you. I can't wait for the next one. Thanks

Just B with Bethenny Frankel

If you can’t handle the truth you can’t handle this podcast. Just B with Bethenny Frankel is the bes 
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