Graham Norton

Published Aug 3, 2021, 7:30 AM

On stand-up and political correctness.

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So I don't know if it's that we didn't buy anything during the pandemic that wasn't ingredients or cookware or fluffy loungeware or slippers or home decor um. But I feel like recently the mafia of subscribing to things I didn't subscribe to. Is that a fever pitch? I first of all, I want you to know that if I look at my phone, people get anxiety, and I am the most declutter organized, get rid of everything person. I want to MoMA to freak you out. In my inboxes, I have forty five thousand seven two emails I don't even bother. I don't know how to delete. What would I do? It's like deleting all the pictures. I want to go back to the time where we took pictures on a camera and then went and got them developed, so we weren't so alf cocked that we just took ten thousand pictures. Even when you're out in public with my daughter or with Paul and you ask someone to take a picture of you, they take the liberty of taking like forty pictures, which is so nice that I took a bunch because they wanted to get a good angle, and I appreciate that. But I like when my daughter takes a picture. She takes one and it's amazing. And Paul, my fiancee, is kind of like that too. He's not just like taking liberty with my phone and taking twenty pictures. And by the way I find that, then it's like, you have a problem. You have the twenty pictures of the same damn thing. I mean, I'm not Linda Evangelista. I'm not like putting, I'm not smizing in between each picture. I'm standing in the same exact spot. So now I have two million pictures that I'll never look at my whole life. The only reason it's good that I'm famous or a well known person is because I can google my daughter and see her face, because how would I find any of these pictures. Sometimes Paul will send me a picture from three years ago because I guess he put him in his favorites. I don't even know where that is. I don't know where these pictures are. I don't know how you search things. Four years ago, I look hot in a black letty dress. How do I find that three years ago I took a picture of a bag in a store that you know I had an e strig pattern. I don't know where that is. It's in my phone, but where. And then sometimes I'll be flipping through and then I'll find some other thing and then I take a picture of that picture, so it's closer to now in my pictures. So if I like, I know that recently, I took a picture of the picture of the stool that I saw years ago in a magazine. And that happens too. We don't rip out pages anymore. I had a lot less to worry about when we just ripped out the page or something. You liked it a magazine. Now I screenshot it if you see it online. I favored it, but I forget that I favored it because I don't see it, so I don't know where to go find it. I don't even know what my favorites are. I know that I do that little thing it looks like a flag, but I don't know where they land. I I see that little thing on the right, looks like a sort of a little like ribbon, the end of a ribbon, and I don't know where they go. So I on Instagram will message myself something that I like and then forget it. I text myself. Do you text yourself? I text myself fifty times a self. Here's a pizza that looks delicious. Let's make this one day self. Here's a photo of a lovely credenza. But I never answer myself, literally, So all day long I'm sending more and more text to myself that I don't answer. This brings me to the unsubscribed culture every fucking day ending and why? And I didn't sign any kind of goddamn contract with anything. You buy anything you buy an ovenmit a goddamn uh hand towel, a pair of glasses, a pair of sweatpants, a lip glass and eyeshadow. You're now in their mafia. Everything that they do you have to hear about all day long. I bought a goddamn it scara. I don't need to hear about fucking hoops. Leave me alone. So every day I have to wake up and start unsubscribing. And it's in the smallest possible unsubscribed print. You gotta get your reading glasses out because you can't find that. Then you go to the bottom and you hit unsubscribed. And what happens next, Now it's a whole. It's the census bureau. Do you not want to receive these at all? Do you want to receive them once a day, four times a week? Do you want to see them every minute of your life? Or never hear from us? Again? I just fucking said unsubscribe that means unsubscribed, So I want to have like are returning message to them being like, Hi, unsubscribed is not available right now. I'm on vacation. But don't do we care that I have forty five thousand, seven hundred and sixty five or whatever I just said emails? Like what am I? Who cares? Why start now? I mean I have once from my goddamn nasty divorce forty years ago. You have to like know certain things, but I it's a mafia of it's in and of itself. And what about the pictures? Don't you? Does anyone agree with these pictures? So I don't know what's in here? And then I I got one day your phone just says fuck you, no more pictures, and then you start the leading pictures. But it doesn't matter. It's like, no, honey, that's not gonna do it. All those fucking tourists that you asked to take pictures of you. It's all that and all the other ship and all taking pictures of you know, your phone and couches and pizzas and all that ship too. So we're done. Now you have to do a whole thing, and then you buy all this extra storage, and or you're home breaks you get a new phone, and then your new phone you could put new stuff on, but then sometimes you'll go back and look for the picture and it's on the old phone. Does anyone have that experience? Like I have an old phone that's in the city that I'm now panic and wears that phone because I know there are certain pictures. I don't know what they are, but once in a while I'll be like, oh, ship, screen grab that on that phone. It's not there, right, No, I did it. I tried to get a new I tried. It's like trying to break up with somebody and you keep going back and sucking them. I tried to do this, and I even was going to go onto like a Samsung, like I was gonna be like, fuck it, these phones don't even know each other. I'm going from an Apple to a Samsung. I'm fucking done. So for whatever reason, because the way everything sinks up and links up and I got enough problems. Um, I went out to another iPhone, like this is gonna be my back phone. This is a phone that only these people know, and these people, but it creeps in. You can't so I say, just suck at the forty seven thousand. Eithers will lead them all or just don't care. Keep buying, pretend I work for NASA. Just keep buying more storage. But you don't understand. This is the opposite of who I am. As a person like I am, my goal is to get rid of everything. So I'm now like an unintentional just because I don't know anything tech hoarder. I'm a hoarder, don't have any solutions. Usually I'm a practical solutions person. I have nothing. The Magnan I problems and tech hoarder is one. Who else is an unintentional tech hoarder who has fifty pictures of the same thing because people can't just take one picture of you and just let it be good enough anymore. Graham Norton is amazing. He's an Irish actor, comedian, commentator and presenter. He's well known for his work in the UK. He's a five time back the TV Award winner for his comedy chat show, The Graham Norton Show. I've been up late at night flipping through chattels let him overseas and cried at his show. It is so funny and he's just very interesting. He has a wide ranging skill set. He's also an author, writing both nonfiction and fiction. His latest Home Stretch, a novel, is releasing today. I'm impressed it the funds of time with his busy schedule, and we talked about why you should hit your wagon to the correct team, how you should always bet on yourself, the importance of choosing your battles, and why you need to follow your passion even if it's a little off brand. Graham is always a delight and you're really going to love this episode. I don't know if you'll be surprised to know that I'm really aware of you and that I was. You were on my list to have you on, and I was really excited and like this was a big get for me, and of course, because we're in the US, an obscure big get meaning like you're a big deal. But you know what I mean, like hang on and Hilary Clinton and Mark Cuban and get some good people, just like obviously you have for years on your show, but you were a big get for me, and I want to tell you why. I so, first of all, I everything to me is about just the comedy, and you know, humor as its own excuse um, and you just you just have an irreverend like you don't really care vibe about you. You're just having fun and it's absurd and it's like a little demented. And I've been up late at night in other countries and then just have found you. And it feels like I'm watching something from like a time warp. Sometimes, like I'm watching like like a sixties talk show in the funniest ways, and I'm like, what is this show? Who is this funny hystorical man? It's Kate Hudson on and all these famous people, Like I didn't know this guy. This is years ago, And every time I would see you, I would just pee my pants laughing. So I've just been very aware of you for a long time, and I'm excited. Well that's so so kind of you, I know what you mean about it does look like if people started smoking on the show, you wouldn't be that surprised, exactly like the old Dick Cavett shows where they're they're wearing hats and smoke exactly. It feels like and you know, when you're in another country, you're lost in translation, so you don't know what's going on, and you're like, they're really famous people. So for my dreaming right now, there are this famous people on the show with this funny guy and it's sort of like a ship show free for all, and they're all having so much fun, and I just think it's great. So that's why, you know, I wanted to have you here. But I really realize that you have built a brand and a success and in a non traditional way, which is what the show is about, and you're nothing sort of interesting. So I'm very aware of you and I was wondering if you knew who had any clue who I am and why you would do this show Like I am aware of who you are and exactly and talk about brand building. I mean, I can see why you're talking about it. You were very very good at that. So, um, I knew that you're very popular. And I didn't know you had a podcast in fairness until they asked me to be on it, but I imagined it will be a very popular podcast. And also, you know, when you think about you know, shared audiences and things, I kind of thought, oh, I imagine her audience might like my show, might like my books. So I thought this was a good fit. So it's interesting that you're serious writer. I write books in a very sort of prescriptive way. You really get deep into writing a book in the traditional author sense. And we started as an actor. But you are to consider yourself mostly a comedian, would you say, like at the core and the heart of who you are, you writer, which also comedians are obviously writers. Yeah, but what what are you? In your mind? I was a stand up to serve a purpose. I was a stand up so that people knew what to do with me, because you know, producers and things kind of go, oh, he's a stand up. He can do a bit of TV presenting, he can do a bit of radio presenting. He did, And that was my way. In the minute I could stop being a stand up. The minute it wasn't my primary source of income, I stopped. I never really enjoyed it. I was never that good at it, to be honest, I was never a closer. You know. It was the comedy club. I was always either the host. I like being the m C. That was a really fun night for me, and I liked being maybe the middle act. But I was never you know, I wasn't a guaranteed I wasn't a guaranteed hit maker. So don't put me last because I could ruin the entire evening if the audience took a gin me. So it was it's a vehicle, which it is for many people. I recently did stand up for the first time during COVID in a real comedy club in New York City for seven minutes, uh like a month ago, with people seated like, you know, six from each other. And what I found interesting about the process of doing I found the process of doing it, meaning leading up to it and the y and the structure more even more interesting than doing it from a business perspective, because it was just like business, where it's about how you prepare yourself and how you set yourself up. And I really realized what an art form it is, and that was the only reason that I was able to do it, because I was organized, if that makes any sense. But hang on, though, I mean, if you haven't done that before, it is one of the most terrifying things or did you not care? Did you go into it thinking this will serve a purpose If I die for seven minutes, I'm still getting material out of this, It's still a thing. Or did you go into it thinking, please God like me and laugh at me for seven minutes. Neither. I've always said I wanted to do what I was. I did the ground, names, etcetera. And I hope you have time because I want to get into your life and your childhood and your money and all the once I decided I wanted to do it, because I have always wanted to do it, not like voraciously, but it's always been like I'm the person that sayes whatever I say, I'm going to do, and how have I not done this one thing that I was sort of not scared, But it feels like I'm being a little bit of a pussy not doing it. So the minute I said I was going to do it, then I was off to the races. And then and it wasn't terror. It was like am I really going to do Wait a minute, I'm really gonna Am I gonna do this? Like what is it? And what is the big odds? How hard could it be? How and and but then it became scary because how could Jerry Seinfeldt have bombed even in his later year. How could people like rist Rock bomb how? And it came to me through talking to all these people that it was because of when they take that, they're taking risks. When you're risking your bombing, that makes sense to me. In business, you jump, you fly, okay, So the whole thing was a risk. But um, I didn't fight off more than I could chew. I had like three sections of like things that I really do think are funny. And it was about the style there. So for anybody listening and what it was worried about public speaking or wedding or anything. It was about being prepared. I realized that my style, I have a ranting style, and my style was is to be aggravated about something, vent about it, tie it up in a bow. But I was prepared. I know that sounds crazy, So once I got there, I knew I'm going to talk about this, flow into this, talk about that, and then flow into that, and with nothing really written down except from my bullet points, I didn't care if I bomb because I was prepared. All you could do is set yourself up if I bombed and I genuinely wasn't good at this, then that's okay. I did what I could, and I found that, like you, when I was done, I didn't need to do it again. It felt like I don't want to be begging for admiration in that way. I'd rather be natural. So I respect the art firms in Scratched. I mean, I think the people you're talking about, the Chris Rocks, the Ellens, those people they do it because they love it. They get something out of that that you and I don't. Even if we can do it, even if there's the possibility that we could actually make a living doing that, I don't get the reward that those people do they get. I mean, they are fed by it. When you listen to real stand up comics talking about doing it because you feel like you're a multi millionaire, why on earth are you slipping around the country doing one night stands around the place? You know they love it. Me. I want to be in a TV studio. I want the cameras to find me. I don't want to go looking for an audience. I want to walk into a room and find them. It's well, do you want to breathe. I think you want to breathe a little more in your show is very breathing, and you want to not be suffocated by the confinement of what you have to say next and land the plane and get it done. And also it's different all the time, so I'm constantly interested. You know, I've got different guests each week, so it's a different show each week I'm there, but everything else has changed, and that keeps you interested. It's mean, it's like doing these sorts of interviews. You know, you can podcast up the wazoo for the rest of your life, but so long as you're talking to somebody knew each time. You know, some weeks will be really boring, someone would be really funny, someone will be really interesting, but it will be different each time, and that keeps everybody interested. Yes, I really do love doing this more than I've ever loved anything. Um I've read about you now, I mean I knew you from television and now I know about you. And every week that I speak to someone for over an hour, I really get to understand who they are and what makes them tick. But everybody doesn't want to be put in a box and either go through the corporate ladder, or go to law school or maybe not go to college, or do it in the way that they think they're supposed to. And I'm here to liberate them in the non traditional, you know, circuitous route to success. And it's it's about what makes somebody who they are, and there's so many common threads through really successful people. So I want to get a sense of your upbringing and your relationship to work, ethics, success, money, what that was like in your household. They wanted me to just get a job. They wanted me to be safe and secure. That's all they wanted for their kids. And you know, it's interesting now because I feel like everyone's supposed to have like uber job satisfaction. Everyone's supposed to have a vocation. You cann't just go to work and get a paycheck. You're supposed to be, you know, fulfilled by your job. That was not my parents tradition, and everybody now thinks they have to have a careers, a thing that kind of fulfills them. You know, I'm yeah, this is I'm I'm living my true authentic life doing this job. And actually, my dad's satisfaction came from making sure we had food, making sure we had clothes, making sure the mortgage was paid. That was his job satisfaction. He hated his actual job. I mean, he absolutely loathed. He was lucky he was able to get early retirement. He was out of there by early fifties I think, and he got nearly his full pension and then he was gone. But that for me, they want to be you know, they knew that I wanted to be a performer. They wanted I wanted to be an actor. But they were like, do the bank exam, it can be your hobby, do this, do that. Of course I failed all those things, all those kind of fall back jobs you're supposed to get. They didn't want me. I was. I was rejected by them all. So by kind of accident, I ended up in university with no plan of what to do with that qualification, and then I dropped out of university. I have to say, in terms of a path to success, I'm not sure how useful my path to success will be for the listeners, because it's what I did it. I think ultimately what I did was I built this thing where I had a plan A and that was it, and I boxed myself into a corner and that's a terrible thing to do. You should always have a plan B. But I didn't. So if this hadn't worked out for me, if I hadn't kind of stumbled my way into a career, I have no idea what I'd be doing. Yeah, but I don't If you have a plan B, you're not going to focus the most on your plan A. That's like the same thing saying that with a relationship. So I was in my late thirties and I still didn't really know what I was going to be doing with my life, you know, but whatever I was doing in the moment, I was very passionate about and driven about. And you know that is a rub for people, But that's why people end up being in sales or bar attending and the money is good and they never end up being able to bust out because they have that safety net. And you're kind of riding to horses. So and I think it's less about your path then who you are. So did you think you had it? Did you feel inside like I have it? I've got this thing. Doesn't matter when my parents are saying they want me to just work hard and get a job, but I know inside there's a light, there's a sparkle. My gut instinct says, you know X. I think what happened was my parents didn't want to see me hurt, so they managed my expectations down all the time. You know, so well, of course you didn't get that, because you know, why would you. And I believe that. I believed that the career I wanted was for somebody else. That's what someone else did, and I didn't know. I mean, I was living in rural Ireland, so even the thought of becoming an actor, I had no idea how you would go about doing that. You know, there was Irish TV, there were actors on TV. I don't know how they got there. There was no drama school in Ireland at that time. So after I dropped out of university, I went to America. I lived in a hippie commune in San Francisco, and those hippies were so great for me. They really taught me so much. You know. They were asking me what I want to do, and I said I wanted to be an actor, and then well, why don't you do that? And when somebody looks at it from that angle, you know, why aren't you doing that? Because you've got all the reasons why you know you shouldn't you kind of well, why you? Actually, why aren't I I'm young, I've got time to fail. And talking to them, they gave me the kind of I don't know if there's confidence, but sort of the the motivation to go back, go back to Europe. I went to London and I just thought, well, I'll follow the stream for as long as it goes. So I'll apply for drama school. If I don't get into drama school, then I'll think again. I did get into drama school. Then I thought, well, if I don't get an agent, I'll think again. I did get an agent. If I don't get a job, I'll think again. I did get jobs. So I kind of followed as far as I could. But that came from the hippies. The hippies were the ones who kind of turned me onto that way of thinking. Whereas I think my parents just this as a criticism of them, and it's not because what they did was amazing. I mean, they came from really poor background. They were very very working class, and they just by graft and cleverness managed to eke their way into kind of an Irish middle class and I think they were scared that I was going to lose all of that, so they wanted me to be safe, and by going away, by leaving Ireland, I think that's what kind of helped me get out of that kind of the safe lane. Do you feel like the hippie culture made you present? You were just in the moment and you were just safe and whatever was going to happen, and you were just letting the path drive you. This is very different. You're different than other people that I've spoken to in the sense that you were really just sort of free to be you and me about it. Did you have big dreams of money? Like what did you have? Money? Noise? Money noise? I mean money noise. What's so weird having money now? Is kind thinking back to what I thought money was and the difference of having it compared to the difference of wanting it. And you know, I remember when I was in London, I was working in restaurants and I was trying to make it as an actor. You know, you just thought, oh, if I had, you know, five thousand pounds, that would change my life, that would turn everything around. So I never dreamt big. I never thought, oh I had a million pounds. I always thought in quite achievable little lumps. And then, you know, because I work in TV, this weird thing happened where you're working, working, working, working, working, and you're making living, you're paying your rent, and then you get a hit TV show and it's like you've won the lottery. Then it's not about a career or it's not about striving or financial planning. The money just arrives and and so you love it. I mean I like money, don't get me wrong now, because you love what you're doing. Oh yeah, that you're paid. And that's the thing, you know. I think people get really frustrated by show business where you see actors or TV hosts and they're wearing a suit and prancing around on a shiny floor and you're scrubbing floors. You're being paid this much of that. And I think the way I explained it is I took a bet on myself. That's going back to the no plan B. I put all my money on you know, red and if this hadn't worked out, nothing, zero zilch, I would be beyond broke. But the bet came in against all the odds, as you know, And well, so why are you successful because you're honest, you're engaging, you don't care about cancel culture per se. You're just irreverent, unapologetic. Why are you successful in this genre? You can't just do this without being a business person. I mean you sort of are making it like you just show up and it just works out and you know the dollars role in. There has to be some sort of real business instinct within you within this construct. Well, a lucky thing happened very early on where we got a big commission. I was with a TV network here called Channel four, and they gave us a big commission kind of you know, half a year of shows, weekly shows, and the executive producer, who does have some business acumen, kind of, well, hang on, if we've got that much business coming in, we can set up our own production company. We've like, we're already successful if we know we've got that much business coming in. So he did that, and so I own half of that production company. And the fact that his career is linked to mine as in, you know, he's got kids, he's got responsibilities. So basically, if I'm not working, he's not making money. So oh, I think there are lots of points in my career where I think I could have gone away. I wouldn't have wanted to, but there was no one kind of pushing you know. I did a thing. I left Channel four, I went to America, had an unsuccessful series and was signed to the BBC. We didn't have a show to do or anything. And I think that was the moment in my life where my career could have just vanished. And because of him, and because he needed the production company to reworking, he was the one back in England. He was the one kind of beavering away and making sure that we did get some shows commissioned. So I think when you talk about you know, I'm not a business but I'm really not. But he is. And my smart thing was we hitched our wagons to each other in a way. But knowing what you know and knowing what you don't know is a huge part of being successful and having the right team, having the right squad around. There has to be some skill set in having a gut instinct. You can't be successful like you are not have a great gut instinct. I believe, well, maybe I've got a good but also it is luck. Like my executive producer Graham Stewart. I've been with him since the beginning, the producer Jon, He's been with me for over twenty years. And I think in the end, if you stumble upon in this industry where it's really hard, you know, the vast majority of shows aren't successful. So if you stumble upon a hit, you know, don't quit the hit. Why would either those guys walk away from this show? And certainly I'm not going to walk away from it. It's my show, and equally all of us are going to be working as hard as we can to keep it a success. We're not just going to take our eye off the ball and go, oh, it's a success now, we don't need to try we do. It. Kind of adds pressure in a way that you've got to make it bigger and better all the time. I can't wait to hear this answer. What percentage are you lucky? And what percentage smart? Um? I don't know. I mean, there have been some things I've said no to over the years, and I think, well, those are smart, good decisions. Um. There's been a couple of things I've said yes to which were not good decisions. But I think I have a pretty good kind of feeling for when something's not right. Um, at what age did you come out and what was your parents relationship to that? What was that discussion in your house? Lett Hole, You sort of said that your parents they were always protecting you and that things were going to kind of go wrong for you. So they were cushioning elementary school. When I was going to elementary school, you know, I was four or four and a half years old, and I was a fay little boy. I liked wearing my sister's dresses and my parents never forbid me from doing any of that. And remember this was the sixties in Ireland, you know, it was not like the sixties anywhere else. It was like the forties anywhere else. And they never feared me from doing this. It would let me dress up my sister's clothes and all this. But then, of course this little child was going to be sent off to elementary school where you know, I think back, my mother must have just thought that child is going to be beaten to a bloody pulp in school. You know, this is going to be such a hard thing for this little kid. And I remember she said to me, now when people try to pick on you, don't react. They are looking for a reaction. And I took that advice and and I went with it, and it worked. I was never bullied particularly, I was never picked on, because that is what the bullies are looking for. Um, I'm not sure what great advice it is in terms of your life. I think it makes you a bit emotionally distant my training yourself to never react to things. But but in terms of protecting me, it was very good advice. Now cut two, when I'm kind of eighteen nineteen, I wasn't particularly sure I was gay, you know, I I thought it was, but you're in denial and you're thinking, maybe I'm bisexual, Maybe it's a phase. All the all the classic tropes, all the neighbors would have known, oh there's the gay guy from next door. But my parents didn't want to see it, so they didn't see it. I didn't see it. They didn't see it. Then I left Ireland, I did see it. They still didn't see it, and so I never came out. I sort of just drifted out. I just incrementally became gay in my family. Um. You know, once I left Ireland, I was gay, and so because I was quite camp and quite fay, everyone I met, you know, in San Francisco. In London, they just assumed I was gay, because of course I was gay, and so I didn't never have to tell anyone because everyone just sold that's that gay guy. And so there was no coming out there. And then finally I had a kind of a fully formed gay life. I sort of introduced my sister to it first, and maybe she went back and kind of w MC to Ireland kind of idea to them for the news, but it was never We never had that, you know, the beautiful coming out conversation. We never had the beautiful moment where we all cried and hugged. And also you've got to remember talking about any sex was awful, you know. I remember when my my sister was married. I remember when she came to the house and told us she was pregnant. There was a sense of embarrassment because we knew, without doubt something had happened. She had had sex. So it wasn't like there was all this sex talk going on, but I was the only one not talking about it. No one wanted to talk about the sex lives. It was, yeah, it was. It was not a comfortable area. So I think if we if you can get around it if you can so convent talking about anyone's sexuality at that time in Ireland, you did so. I think my parents will be forever grateful that I never sat them down for the talk. They didn't want to talk either, none of us did so amazing. Oh, well, what's the entertainment industry like in the u K? F y I I am, I'm Welsh, I've spent summers in Martha Tidfil as a kid, and I'm Scottish and Irish, which I did not realize that it's a significant amount. I realized doing one of those sort of ancestry tests. So so what is uh? Because the reason I'm about, I'm asking about the entertainment industry in the UK and why you didn't um try it over here in this same to this same degree in scale, and what that feels like to you. For example, everyone says to me, skinny girl, can we have it in UK? Why don't we have it in the UK. You know, we get in our own world and we think we're successful and then we realize that, like my products don't sell their people know who I am, but probably not most people. And so it's just interesting and I'm curious what, um, what the entertainment industry is like there? What your life is like there? As an a detainer, as a media personality. I mean, it is interesting, isn't it. That thing where there are moments when you go, oh, big world, you know, because we're so used to you know, worldwide Web YouTube. But actually there's loads of stuff that doesn't travel. There's loads of stuff that people don't know, and so it's still worth traveling everyone, It's still worth going to other places. You'll see things you don't know. You know, I knew nothing else apart from the British entertainment industry until I went to America, and back in the early naughties we did a deal with Comedy Central and I did a series with Comedy Central which we filmed in New York and it was fascinating to us. It made you realize that kind of the British entertainment industry was like sort of amateur dramatics compared to America, where it was an industry. Um, you know, a meeting about a show. Here, you're in a room with you know, a suit too, suits from the network. In America, you're in a room fourteen people and they all have a job title. Well you know this. I mean, meetings in America are just just stupidly big. I don't know. I don't go to a lot of meetings. He I never leave my house. It's not it's like almost like a recluse. Um. I know what you're saying, because when I've been signed by an agency or attempted to be this one in branding and marketing and PR and communications and the vice president and you know which shows you have seven people. And you know I get that, but um, it's interesting what you're saying. So and you're talking about a serious meeting in the UK. You're going to a serious meeting and there are two people in there and you're having to I mean if I you know when I when I signed my deal with my publishers, you know, there were maybe two people there. Um, I just moved to a different radio network here and again it was a really small deal. You know, I met a couple of people on Zoom, I met a couple of people in the room and the deal was done. Well that's a big one. So you're saying, it just feels like my more intense and like Mark five when you get here in them it seemed to me that there are all those people in that room there there so that it's nobody's fault when this thing bombs and the network has lost millions of dollars, they can all point at each other and the chances of everyone surviving are much higher, Whereas if there are only two people in that room, it's somebody's fault the buck. The buck is stopping somewhere, Whereas I feel by populating those meetings with all those people, it just shifts the blame around. And if it's a hit, then everyone gets a little bit of the glow of success. But if it's a failure, no one's carrying the can particularly, That's what it seemed like. I find that they're big meetings and big people and big email chains in the beginning, and if it doesn't do well, dwindles down to like one or two people that are well. Also because people aren't invested in anymore, like why bother? I mean? And I think the thing about America too, is it turns so fast. You know, if if a show isn't performing, it's not performing at all, you're gone beyond yeah. Whereas here there used to be shows that would come back for season after season and you kind of think, how no one's watching that show, but now it has become a bit more kind of cutthroat. But equally, they don't cancel things. They might try you out in different time slots and you die by a thousand cuts, but they don't just come in and pull the plug in the way. You know that you hear all the stories about people who are you know, they're rehearsing their sitcom and then suddenly they hear some whispering and people are packing up one night only literally you one night you could premier the next day. They're figuring out their exit strategy. And it's really true. It's a very big And that's why I want to actually get into relevance with you what that means to. I want to get into cancel culture because I don't know what's going on in the UK right now in this regard, but what's going on here, Uh, I'm one of my books and we all I also want to talk about your book. I say, make decisions out of truth, not fear, And it sounds like that was a big thing that you've done in your career, made decisions out of truth in the moment. What you want to do what you love to do, what you're passionate about. You didn't think about plan B. You just this is the truth for you. When something doesn't smell right in a business deal, that's the truth for you. So you're not making a lot of decisions out of fear. The entire not just entertainment industry, media, entertainment, the world corporate is driven right now by fear. And I started when I had my talk show, which I wasn't particularly great at, although I didn't really love it because it felt like I was directing traffic. If I had the wrong lipstick on, I can have lipstick again. And it was just a rush, and it was a reaction, not action. It wasn't anything I wanted to do, was what I was supposed to be doing. And it was very anxiety producing. It was me in a box. But that was the beginning, and that was a while ago of like what I understood to be fear, like someone's gonna lose their job, it is gonna do well today tomorrow. We are, as you said, packing your bags. Now, this is at a fever pitch. Everyone's terrified to say something, do something, where something, think something by something, represents something it is fear based culture right now, So what's going on there? I mean, it doesn't feel like that. I know what you mean. I see it happening, but it doesn't seem to happen as much here as it does. They're okay, you don't feel it like it's on right now. You know, I've done jokes on my show which I would not do now. I will not defend they were from this fat standpoint awful. What's great is the world has moved on we were not. You're not going to do those jokes now, or if you are, expect people to call you out for them. But um, Dave Chappelle would get away with it. It's also a positioning and a padging, and what vehicle you're in a comedy is at risk now because people can't you know, people are Chelsea Handler is not actually telling all true stories. She says this in her book. It's embellishment, it's sense of humor. So now people in movies aren't smoking and aren't saying inappropriate things anymore. But there are real people in the world saying in appropriate things and smoking. So now TV is fake because we are trying to create this construct. So I get it. But it's this weird metal world where you know, you don't know where the line is because humor is that is at risk in certain ways. You know you are, you're scared. I would say, what's what's the plus of this? On the upside of this, people have to try harder, people have to find because actually a lot of the jokes that you can't do now are really lazy jokes. They're they're very lazy. They're punching down jokes. They're you know, they're not admirable. There not worth defending. I mean, you know, people go, oh, you can't see anything now, well, why did you want to say that? You know, find a cleverer thing to say, find a more interesting thing to say, and don't don't say the first thing, you know. And I think that's the upside of all of this. And I know what you're saying that, Yes, maybe they're kind of sanitizing drama and all that sort of stuff, but I think there will always be room for the other sort of thing. There'll always be you know, big mainstream movies were always glossy. You know, when you see someone living in there there are a students are living in a New York apartment and you think, oh, piss off, like, are you a multi millionaire to live in that apartment? Um? And then there'll be an indie movie where they lived in the actual apartment that student would live in. There's always been a disconnect between what drama really is. It's never been real, it's never been the actual world. It reflects something that an audience finds palatable. I would say, so, I think that's just shifting and the other thing. The other thing I'm saying, I find this with my friends as well. If you fight all of this, it's very aging. You seem quite old. If you sucked all this, it's much easier just to go with it because the people who aren't complaining about this are young people. This is the world that young people are building for themselves that they want to live in, and we're just kind of the old dinosaurs wandering around and bumping into furniture. There were lots of moments we woun go, oh, forgot that? What you can't say that now you can't do this? But who cares? Really? So anyway, UM, do you care about being relevant? Like at this point in your career, do you think about packing it up? Do you think about went to hold them and went to fold them, And are you like Joan Rivers cared how full her calendar was. It was part of how she well validated herself, how she measured her her life. It was her identity. Yeah, part of your identity. And I wonder about that. You know, the times I've come close to not working, the times I've come close to losing things, you kind of think, wow, how much of me is this job? And I think I'll be Okay, that's my that's that's what that's what I hope. Um. I remember when I went to America. I've you've been successful here for I don't know, four or five years, and I remember getting off the plane in America thinking I wonder if I'll miss being well known, And it turns out I didn't. I really didn't. I quite liked it. How anonymous is it here? And is it you can't walk out of your house in the UK? I mean, you know, I will still meet people who don't have a TV or whatever. They won't know who I am. But you know, I've been on TV here for twenty five years, so people do know who I am. UM. In America, you know, I bump into the odd person who knows who I am. But I might go on the street because if we had a context too, are you in the UK? I might? If I were here, I wouldn't expect to see you here. Yea. So for me, America's lovely because I'm not really known there. But and this is an awful thing to say. Well, I don't know it's okay to say on this, but but I still have the money. Yeah, which is I think it was Billy Crystal. You know, people say to him, oh, I'd love to be rich and famous, and he always says tribing rich first, And I think that's such a uh. When you see people with lots of money then attempting to become famous, you guys think, why are you doing that? You have you have the good bit, you have the great bit already. By the way, I can name five people that are so thirsty because it just bothers them that they couldn't nail this part. It's you know, neither part is easy. But some people who have money, it drives them crazy that they can't nail this relevant faint part. And I know some of them personally, who when I was totally broken, totally poor, you treat me like I was nobody and they were super rich, so they were somebody and now they kiss my ask because all they want is some of that shine. And it really it's better to be wealthy and then famous by every stretch of imagination, just um, who were your greatest guests for whatever reason? Like what are the funniest, greatest, most entertaining our best shows or guests, the peak guests. And for me, the big ones are like there are some just big stars who are great at being guests. And there because sometimes I do my job, sometimes I ask the right questions, I've set the mood, I bring the best out of somebody, and I feel like, oh yeah, I did a good job. Then there's the guests to come on and like this chair could be empty, they'd be a great guest. So like the Tom Hanks, the Will Smiths, those people they are so good at it, so good at making you believe that they love being Tom Hanks. They really enjoy being Will Smith and they never let light in on that. And that is such a skill and it really it explains why they're huge stars and a still huge stars. I mean Tom Cruise is another one who Tom Cruise like he does this thing well, it's basically he's very good at being Tom Cruise. When he arrives at the studio and he gets out of the car and you know, Katherine the line producer meets him. Hi, I'm Catherine, this is so and so. This is Pete the researcher, This is John the guest booker. He shakes their hands, he comes in, he does the show to when he's leaving, Bye bye, Catherine, thank you so much. Where's Pete? Where's there's Pete? Hi, Pete, Thank you so much. Of that. Now, that's a trick. He learned how to do that. I haven't learned how to do it. I haven't bothered. And it means those people who work on my show love him. They would crawl over broken glass for him. They adore him. Great note for people, by the way, when you're going to interviews, when you're meeting with people, doesn't have to be in the entertainment industry. Great note. He take people's names, follow ups and the muffin basket, things like that. That's a huge one, and those little moments are noted and meaningful. But maybe you'll do it more because I'm going to do what you just said about Catherine. And you know, sometimes you're in your own head and you're so busy and you're just moving forward and you've got all this information and data and you don't realize that you may be thinking, oh, there's that person, but you're not saying it out loud, you know what I mean? Sometimes I get off the phone and I don't even say goodbye because the conversation's over, and I you know, those those moments are meaningful. I think they probably are very helpful in business, because you've just mentioned it. Yeah, no, I mean it's like, um. Lady Gaga was on the show and at the end of her rehearsal she said, oh, could everyone stop, could have a moment and you could imagine everything just like rolling her eyes, going oh God, what does she want now? And it was to thank everybody. She wanted to thank all the technical people, all the art department, everything who had helped to make this performance possible and those people appreciated that so much. And talking about the basket of muffins. Normally, if people send something to the show, they'll send it to me, or they'll send it to the executive producer. She sent stuff to the people who made her stuff happen. I'm saying I'm a big, big, big, big gift sender. There is never not a gift list going on. It's I'm a gifter. I love because it's thoughtful. Last week, I got a great reservation in Miami. That's a hard reservation. What was her name? Put her on the gift list? Like I love the gift. It may not be I may not have a gift of remembering everyone's name or saying hello or goodbye, but I have the gift of thanking. Um. So what about your peaks and your peak and your low of your career? What was the road? I call it the rose and the thorn, your rose of your career and the thorn of your career? Um? The I mean getting the chat show was the rose of my career. I mean that was because you know everyone who wants their big break, you want your big break, you want your big break, and that's what you're striving for. What I get my big break? And I was very aware that getting my own talk show was my big break. But then there's this awful moment that you realize if this big break goes wrong, if this bombs I am so much further back than I was the moment before that big break, because now I'm the guy trailing failure. Before I was the unknown, full of possibility if only someone took a chance on me. And I remember the only kind of I think it was a panic attack. The only thing I've ever had like that was in the lead up to the beginning of the talk show, where I had to really calm myself down and kind of talk about, you know, the worst case scenario, what would I do if this thing was a disaster? Da da da da. And from then on I was okay. And also I was okay because the show did well. I didn't I didn't have to. I didn't have to navigate the worst case scenario. And so that's the rose and the thorn was the lead up. Now, what was it, No, I would say the thorn. The thorn, I suppose was when I came back from America and I was kind of scrabbling around and I didn't have a show, um, and that was hard, and that's where things could have really just that could have been you know, the final chapter in my career. Yeah, that could have been just that. And then after that i'd have just muddled through and done, you know, little bits and bobs, and you know, I just still got gigs. But I but having the big flagship talk show on BBC one. There's no reason why that should have happened. But in that moment, the money wasn't the thing because you had the money and that moment the relevance and the fame. So there is a little bit of something to that. You know, I'm saying that your bank account was cool. Yeah, And also I think here's a thing. Um. When I was at Chapel four, I got offered to switch to the BBC, a different network, and they showed me that the deal, the shows they wanted me to do, and I said, no, I don't want to do that. Two weeks later I got a call for my so excited. The deal was back. But now the money was I can't remember what they've done to the money. I mean they it was just multiples more. It was a huge amount of money. And you know, everyone's very excited because everyone's going to get their percentage of that money and I'm going to get the bulk of that money, and you know, and you don't want to do And then what I did was I thought, well, hang on, that's the deal I said no to. I said no to that deal, and the only thing that's changed is the money. And actually that's not enough. Those shows I didn't want to do them two weeks ago, and the money hasn't made those shows better. Okay, so that's very interesting. When I left The Housewives, everyone thought that I was leaving because I didn't get enough money, and I said no, I would have been staying for the money. The only reason I was going to stay was for the money. But it's funny and you're saying that because you would have been staying or doing it for the money, not art, and that dangerous game to be playing. That feels like the last heist in a heist movie, you go back into the last one and that's when you get jammed up. And also, the thing is, though, I'm now fifty eight, so you know my career is going in one direction. I'm I am. You know, I'm coasting towards some sort of retirement. So now, if somebody brought me some shows I didn't want to do, then two weeks later, up to the price to gazillions, I probably would say yes, because I would think who cares for? Depending on the effort level, and you'r R o I. I talk about that bucket. It's on the bucket. I would rather have fewer buckets full. So I don't want to do twelve things halfway. I'd rather do six that are very lucrative or rewarding. You're getting an R o I. So it depends for you on your time. As you get older, you realize your time is way more valuable how I feel your physical and mental health. So it depends upon the time that something is going to take you. And also, I'm lucky in that I've got things that I do that don't make much money, like the books and stuff which I really enjoy. So if I'm doing a big cash gig that I'm not loving, but it pays for everything, I'm still able to do the things I do love. I understand. And that's a bounce for people to decide about the book. First of all, I love the look of the book, and it's important now because people don't read as much. I just like the way that your book looks. So can you tell us about your book Home Stread? Right, it's called home Stretch home starch as the new one. What's weird about the books is that's not what my name is on them. But it's not the Graham Norton you expect. They're quite serious, they're quite dark. They're set in rural Ireland um and I really enjoy writing them. And luckily here they have found an audience. And I wasn't sure whether they would, because you know, I think people would come to these books thinking they're going to be funny, thinking they might be said in the world of media, or they might be said in London. Are they be glamorous or gossipy or whatever, And they're so not that they're kind of understated and arc and and Homestretch is the third one, and actually it opens up a bit. About a third of the story is in New York, is in Manhattan and nyack Um is set there where one of the characters kind of leaves Ireland and has a life in America like so many Irish people do. And and but eventually he does go back. And it starts with a terrible car crash. And it's something that happens. I'm sure it happens everywhere, but certainly in Ireland. You hear about it where during the summer months, kids, the overconfidence of youth maybe there's drink involved their reckless driving crash. And what I noticed is, you know, young people die in these crashes, but often the driver survives. And I just thought, what happens to that kid? What happens to that kid. He's hardly started his life and already he's blighted it because he's in this small town. Everyone knows him. He has killed his friends, he has killed his parents, friends, children. So and that happens, you know, relatively often, and I just thought, how does that kid go on with their life? What happens? And so that was the start of this book, and it does. It tells the story of Connor, the driver and what he does. And then oddly it's also kind of the story of Ireland because Ireland over the last thirty years has become this weirdly liberal place. You know, it was the first place on Earth where a public vote, a referendum, brought in gay marriage. It wasn't legislation, it was the people of Ireland. To me, that is its own separate brand and it's entirely different. You have to brand that as the different brand from the gritty Irish, tortured writer brand um. Last thing I want to know is uh, your relationship to relationships? Is it important to you? Do you want to have that lifelong connection? What what matters to you as it pertains to the category of relationships and as that connects to a career, Well, it's I think my career has probably hampered relationships. I would say, um, one, I've probably prioritized my career over relationships. And to you know, it's quite difficult to date some guy on TV because particularly I think if I was straight, I feel like a woman in my life would have a role. There would be things for her to do. You know, she could be a hostess, she could be a mother, she could be you know, do all those things. But for another man, it's quite emasculating to be the other half of this creature on television. So I think that's difficult. But by the way, I understand what you're saying. And for me, being a woman with this kind of a career, think about what that's like to be a man with a woman About how successful. Um, you've got to find the right person who can deal with that and find their own identity and value in their own success, which is not that easy. No one can prepare you for what it's like to go out with you where suddenly you're at cocktail part ease and that person has been elbowed out of the way, or that being asked to hold coats or great, and I never go out, so he doesn't experience it that much, but he doesn't. Like. We went into a store looks good store, really major store, and he brought me something really major and the salesperson did not look at him who had the credit card and was paying for it, like, did not even acknowledge his presence. And it really piste him off because I mean, the man, he was spending a lot of money and he was like the man at least look. I made him feel like shit, you know, And it makes me then feel uncomfortable. And I get what you're saying. It's very great. It chips away at you, and you know you're fine once you're find twice the tenth time you just think I can't, I cannot do this I and I get that, I understand it, but I'm not sure what the you or the I can do about it. And yet somehow it's our fault. I think you find yes, But more than that, I think it's also just the all consuming nature of this level of a career, and if you're a person like me, who really it's part of who I am, as much as being an amazing present mother, as much as being a recluse, never in hair or makeup and o reads at home. I am addicted to the idea. I love the idea, I love the execution, I love the creativity, I love the medium, I love the vehicle. That is very much part of who I am. So you have to be honest about who you are. Hopefully find find a partner who has enough to fulfills them, and you don't fix them. I work on myself. Someone on the show taught me, you work on yourself, you don't work on them. Let them work on themselves, and that people need to give each other space and a long leash. I've learned that too. If I'm the crazy one, he's the boring one, Let him be the boring one. Go to sleep a ton o'clock, I'll have fun after ten o'clock, or I'll go on vacation with my friends. To not want the other person to like fulfill those voids that you have, I've always sort of made that mistake. Yeah, as long as they're fulfilling something. Um So there has to be somewhere in between. You're engaged, you found it, I'm not still in the I'm always gonna be a work in progress. And it sounds like to you at this time, it's not a priority, like it's not exactly what you want. You don't know that it's right for you. And that's absolutely also great and liberating and more current than before. And what I'm talking about, as it pertains to me is also feeling current that it's not like if I have a long distance relationship, which I do, it used to feel like there were optics to that that were wrong, or there were things that I was supposed to do or jam in the time. Now it's feeling like it breathes, it lives. I have a quadrant with my daughter alone. I love that I have time with my Beyonce alone. I love that I have time when we're together with his kids. I love that his time alone with his kids. I love that it used to be like we're supposed to be one person, We're supposed to be codependent, We're supposed to do everything together. What are we eating, what are we doing? Where we going? And I found that I like it this way and that's okay. Yeah, It's like the thing is that relationships are a covered dish. You often, you know, you look at couples and think, how does that work? And then you look at couples you think must be happy, and of course they're the ones who aren't. So you cannot second guess what's going on in a relationship between two people. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't got to work for you exactly. Yeah. Um wow, I can't wait to like have a reason to be in the UK and have been relevant enough to be on your show and just laugh with you on that couch with you in one of your wacky out That would be like an honor at some point. Um, although I never leave the house. As you know, you're wonderful, interesting. Well, thank you so much, Thank you Graham so much. Um, I appreciate you. Thank you very much. Cheers to hear yourself. So Graham Norton's interview was different because it seems like he's sort of just allowed the process in life. Jonathan Adler was a little bit like this, where I kept trying to grip onto Okay, what is it, why are you successful? Where is the toolbox like, and Graham's sort of like letting the process flow, allowing the magic to happen around him and putting one step in front of the other. And it's different. It's definitely different, more than everybody else who's just like, no, you have to do this, you have to set yourself up for success with to be prepared. Graham's more chill about it. Like I said, certain people go with the flow, and maybe they've experienced law and they allowed the process to take its own form. I'm the opposite I, and you have to design who you are. I basically set myself up for success that I make things happen. It seems like Graham is smart and knows what he doesn't want to do and how to follow his gut instinct, but he's allowed the process to unfold. He very well could have been not successful as likely as being successful, according to him, like, it could have very well not happened. And I think the same thing for myself. But he just doesn't seem as hungry and thirsty as many people are, which is relaxing and interesting because he's been successful and on television for so long. But you can tell he likes to be relevant and he wants to stay at the front of the pack. So there's just interesting combinations where so driven, but the minute that the shine fades, I'm walking away. I'm cool with that. Like the minute that the tables go cold, I'm walking away, I'm not, you know, holding on. I don't care if I'm relevant not relevant. So it's just interesting the different recipe that you see in all of these different people to success. So Graham definitely stood at as being unique in a more relaxed way, in a lace a fair way, but not in a lazy fair way as it pertains to his show and staying at the top. Just Be is hosted an executive produced by me Bethany Frankel. Just Be is a production of The Real Productions and My Heart Radio. Our Managing Producer is Fiona Smith and our producer is Stephanie Stender. Our EP is Morgan Lea Boy. To catch more moments from the show, follow us on Instagram and just Be with Bethanie Ti

Just B with Bethenny Frankel

If you can’t handle the truth you can’t handle this podcast. Just B with Bethenny Frankel is the bes 
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