Evy Poumpouras

Published Nov 30, 2021, 8:30 AM

On doing it all and being mission-oriented

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Years ago, I was on a panel and I heard this woman who company did she work for? She was like a sort of worked for a big company that works on works on future marketing trends and what brands are doing and what's going to happen. And I'll never forget her saying you might hear you might one day, or garbage will will smell like Gucci. Your protestanted and I laughed at it, but I thought it was like a good It sounds like a good concept. It was actually this panel where I did say that I thought that Donald Trump would win uh the election because he was producing a reality show and and and it was people were watching him like Justin Bieber. I just will never forget. This was years ago, years ago, the first mention of Donald Trump running for president. But anyway, this woman said that guard badge would be scented like uh product or Gucci, like luxury goods. I was laughing, but it sounded like a good idea. So the other dayn in my house and I thought that um Elena, who works with me, I thought she had perfume on. It just smelled really pretty. I was like, wait, do you have perfuma? I have perfume, and you know how sometimes it's left on your clothes, but it wasn't familiar, and it was the garbage. Garbage. Garbage smells gorgeous. Now like there's that, there's scented garbage and it smells like beautiful home fragrance. What an amazing, amazing idea. Like smelling like garbage isn't bad anymore. The garbage smells gorgeous. Tissues don't really smell. Maybe they have scented tissues. I guess you don't want different competing scents all over your house. They have to choose a scent, like you should have something that goes down into your garbage disposal that speaks to your actual garbage. Your tissues to be should be in that same scented family. It can't compete with your candles. Um. There's a lot of there are a lot of smells going on. So it makes sense that garbage should smell. But you have to make a decision about what you're going to choose as your your family garbage scent, and then your garbage bins outside should also have a have a scent. The people who collect garbage should be pulling up to your house and knowing whose house they're coming to because of how what the smell is at your house. I guess toilet papers should be scented, But then people toushies are sentitive. Maybe they wouldn't want that. It's good for your garbage, but it's not good for your tush. And maybe cleaning supplies where you're cleaning your toilet. Toilet brushes should be scented. Plungers should be scented. I guess any area that smells like smells unpleasant. I mean, vomit bags on airplanes should also be scented. Everything should just starts smelling good. What's the difference. The city should be doing it to their garbage bags in the garbage cans, so the city should be it should be smelling nice. You should open up a mailbox, put in some mail, and it should just smell beautiful. And why doesn't like ups and Amazon starts sending scented boxes everything you get. Is it just gonna just start smelling nice? My guest today is E. V. Pomp Rus. She is a former US Secret Service special agent, host, journalist, and best selling author of the book Becoming Bulletproof. She served on the Secret Services Presidential Protective Division. That's so fancy and so impressive. And she was a first responder during nine eleven. What a total badass. She now shares her wisdom on her own podcast, Unstoppable, perfectly named because she is. I am so excited to talk to her. I think you're gonna love this one. What a great woman, What a great story, What an interesting conversation. So you were a police officer, a first responder, You've worked for the Secret Service, you've worked h guarding and protecting presidents. Is all of this correct? That's correct? How did you get into law enforcement? You know, I grew up in New York and we lived in actually in Harlem. I was born in Harlem and immigrant family, very kind of known story, so many people have this story. And we lived in public housing too, in queens and rough areas. And I think I grew up in an environment where you are victimized a lot. There's a lot of crime around you, and you you feel the sort of helplessness. And I think I over the years that accumulated, you know, very fear based, don't go out, don't do this, don't do that. And I kind of came to a place where I wanted to be able to kind of protect myself and protect my family and kind of get out of, you know, not being that fear state of mind. And I think I was never driven by money. UM. I was always driven by I think, helping and serving others. And truly, the last place I thought was gonna go to I was gonna go to the end of my p D. But I just remember thinking, you know what, why not. I remember I was actually on the subway going to UM. I just finished college and I got a job right out of college doing some admin work, and I remember thinking, this is what I'm gonna do. And the subway doors open, Bethany, and I see this police officer and this is a little bit back in the day, and he's hanging out with the rails and his belly is hanging out, and I'm thinking, I can do that. And then that night I called too and to recruit and I was like, hey, you guys hiring, and it just kind of took off from their interesting So what was your view of the police force and what is it now? Like, what did you think about it, what did it mean to you? What did your family think about that decision? How old were you at that time. It was right out of college one any one I was. It was really right out of college. I didn't care for law enforcement. I was, you know if I whenever I got pulled over, I remember I would roll my eyes, Why are you're harassing me? Were you bothering me? And I didn't really understand what it was um that they did in some sense, but I just knew I wanted to serve and protect. And it really kind of just I don't want to say it fell into it, but I I walked into it with the understanding of this is a place that's gonna help me build resilience, it's going to be a place where it can actually contribute to society in some way. And I had worked with a government official before that while as in college that worked for a congresswoman, and I think that also kind of opened my eyes up. I worked for her as an intern to public service and realizing just how much people need help. And I think it also kind of woke me up to how hard it is to be in the public service sector. You know, you you're always trying to do the right thing, but you are there to sort of the public and you have to tell that line very thoughtfully and carefully because you're there to serve others and protect others. And is that message conveyed well the people? Really? Do people really understand it? Is there a lot of sort of the power play people just sort of feel like they're a hot shot, they get to be the boss there in control? Or how how honored is that code overall? Do you think you know you have? It's a really good question to ask, and I think it's honest. I do think you get a mix. The majority of people go into it because they want to contribute, and you do get individuals who go into it. You know, you throw in the badge and the gun. A very predominantly male environment. Um that that's a negative thing, I think. You know, it's just that that overwhelming sense of you know, I don't want to say masculinity, but you know, this kind of boys club type of mindset environment, all those things put together sometimes draw the wrong individuals. And there were moments where you'd look at this person and think, how did you get in here? Why are you here? You're not here to? Um, it's not about you, You're not here to you know, bully people perhaps because sometimes they can be perceived that way, you're there too, You're really there to serve, like you're there for the public. And you know, it's interesting, I teach criminal justice. One of the reasons like policing came to be, or police came to be, is because there used to be private police. So back back, big way back when if you had money, it was the only way you could have security. So somebody wronged you, you had to pay to get protection, you had to pay to get justice. So policing was developed for the public, for the everyday person who did not have the funds, did not have the money, who needed protection. And that's really where this public service came to be. But I will tell you the majority of the people were very strong people, very good people, people who were there to serve and protect. And my stint in the NYPD was a short stint. I almost immediately went from that division, that department to the U. S S. S. Okay, do you feel did you? And I asked this because it's such a common conversation and so many women talk about what it means to be a women woman versus being a man in different different areas, and and I always answer honestly saying, I never have thought about that. I literally have never thought about that. Now I'm not a woman of color, and that makes it much more different. But still being a woman is different than being a man. And in my life and I obviously wasn't a police officer, but in my life, in my business, I haven't. I just didn't think of that. No one sort of told me. Maybe it's because I grew up at the racetrack where it was all men. I don't know, but no one said, oh, you shouldn't do that because you're a woman, or you are a woman and it means this. So I just never occurred to me. So I always have to try to think of how to answer that truthfully without offending anyone, but being honest and not just pretending that. For me personally, I had so much of a struggle because I'm a woman versus a man, I wouldn't. I may have, but I didn't notice. So walking into a very male driven business career job, did you think of yourself as a woman where people saying, but you're a woman, you can't do that when you were there where you treated very differently, or did you just have blinders on about that? You know? I love that you said that I think you're the only person who's ever said that to me, and so I am not offended because I am in that same mindset. I didn't stop to think about my gender. I didn't care. This is what I want to do, this is what I'm going to do, this is what I'm going to pursue. And when you put that out there, it doesn't matter what's here. And maybe in a lot of ways I did have my blinders on because I was so focused on what I was doing, Like, to me, that's noise, and so I can't sit and I was My mindset was I don't have time. I don't have time. My mindset is I am looking to do this, and so I did not stop to think about my gender. It wasn't Bethany. It was until after I laughed where people were asking me, how did you do that? And I remember thinking, do what you know go through that? It's like I just did it. I'm not saying that those things aren't there, but I didn't have time from them, nor was I going to give them life. Well, I asked it because I got that vibe for me for some reason. And listen, you are very attractive you. If I met you on an airplane. The last thing that I would guess is that you had worked in law enforcement, because I would have a preconceived notion about the way that you look. But I just got that vibe from you. And the reason I asked it is because it is a sensitive question to ask, because then people get annoyed when you don't acknowledge that it's a thing. But we're trying to tell women also, if it's happening to you, then it's real, and if you're feeling it, it's real, but not to look for it to happen, because by going in thinking of it that way may mean it's a self fulfilling prophecy for it to occur. So you you went into a much more masculine, testosterone fueled industry, although me going into the liquor industry and growing up at the racetrack is pretty masculine. But I just got a vibe. So it's why I asked it, because I think it's important for women to hear things that aren't necessarily the common popular topics in the way that everyone's saying it. That helps them. That helps them because you're not teaching them to be of them to think like one to bring that on, to bring in that energy. Right, it's completely distracting. It hasn't it needs to not be. There's somebody else's bringing it in their problems, not your problem. It's like, what what is my goal? My goal is to be in this industry, whether it's in law enforcement or or selling live or whatever it is. And that's when your mission focus, your your goal oriented. And so I agree with that type of mindset, and I think that is the mindset that really gets you out there. And I think sometimes when we really replay these negative I'm not saying they don't don't exist. Of course they exist. Of Course you're gonna deal with it. There's there's no one saying that it's not there, but you do not. At least for me, I did not give it any more life than it needed because it would take away from what I was doing, and quite honestly, it would miss I think it would. It would miss me up my mindset. Yes, that's what I'm saying. If you were starting to climb up a mountain and you were thinking about all of the reasons you couldn't do it, you might get distracted if you just started to put your in front of one in front of the other, and then something happened. You would deal with what happened in that moment, but you wouldn't be all psyched out by thinking about the monsters that are going to come. They're coming or they're not, and you'll deal with that as you go. But you are on the road. So that's interesting. So, um, so what did you want to be when you grew up? What was your goal? And what? And what? What? What was your goal? And what is your brand? Or who are you? What do you do for a living? If I would say to you, now, who are you and what do you want to be when you grow up? Like? What? What are the answers to these types of questions? Okay, so now I think now I'm like many things. I and I left law enforcement after thirteen years. I left the U S. Secret Services, and so I went into television. Ironically, I went to doing the news. So when there would be a terrorist attack or we have a crime take place, I would be one of the commentators and contributors that would go on the news and breakdown kind of this happened, this is what we're seeing, this is what it means. And then from there a transition to writing a book, my book becoming Bulletproof, and then from that to transition to coasting some shows being on Bravo. I did Spy Games for Bravo TV and kind of spacing into that world podcast and then doing a video podcast for video series called Unstoppable with my co hostly Stability. So I think I kind of I took when I created in the first part of my life, if that makes sense, and I transitioned it into this other period um mostly TV media. I think that's kind of the space that I live in and I teach as an adject professor and just communicating and and using media as a way to share stories, tell stories, whether it's in crime, whether it's in life lessons. Now, as far as what I wanted to be when I grew up, I was not that person or that young person who was very clear headed I know I want to be this. I actually studied the arts. I studied the arts. I went to acting school, I graduating from acting school, so I had a very much a love for the arts and creativity, and then I went into a completely different space. And that's why sometimes even now as a teacher or as an aguict professor, I teach criminal justice in criminology. I always say my students, don't worry about it, like it'll you you're gonna study this and you would end up doing something completely different. And I think I've always just followed what I felt. I mean, I've I'm always right mission oriented. I always use that word because it just helps me. I identify goals and I'll think to myself, I want to do this next, and I'll figure out how to do it. But I've never really been preoccupied with what's my five year plan because same it's never been that oh my god, I love it. I feel like the only one who's like, I don't have it. When people ask me, I just look at them. I'm like, I don't know, no, because you're you're playing chess. You're looking at the board, but you have to be aware of the pieces and what's going on right here, meaning you're you're in the car. It's moving, but you're not always sure where it's going. You have a goal, but if you make a right, you make a right. If you hit a roadblock, you you stop like you and you have your executing the passion and the visions that you have. I mean that that's I'm very similar to that. I'm not a person who has the grand plan. I execute the things that I love. And you're on a journey and it seems like it's been, uh, it's been a very circuitous path. So you're you're you've been, but it seems like it's always been moving forward. You're always uh growing, and it seems like it's I don't want to say getting better, but it's certainly getting deeper and evolving more. Yes, progress, right, you're progressing and you're and you're right though, because I also think to Bethany, when you have a very you have a plan, it's the super rigid plan. What happens. I think what I've seen happen is when people have this planet, it doesn't execute the way they think they it will. They fall apart. And so it's being able to adapt and flow. I always think of water. It's like I'm water. So that's why when people give me this rigid plan, I I can never function with that because if you're that rigid, it's not gonna work out. You're always gonna have bumps. And then that's where I see most folks get derailed um from that because they think, oh, this has happened. It's not supposed to happen. But when you're adaptable, and I think to Bethany, and I don't know if you've experienced this, but I've experienced it more now in this second phase of my life. When you miss opportunities as well, things that you didn't think would come your way, You'll miss those because you're so focused on, so rigid on on this one outcome that you've set for yourself. Yes, but you're younger than I am. I believe that you look younger. I hope you're younger. Please God, I don't know about that. I've got really good widing of that. All right, well, you make a bomb, but I think you're a lot younger. But when you're younger and you have less responsibility, as we get older, time becomes more valuable and then you have to really streamline and decide where you're going to spend your time and where you're going to get the greater r o I. So if it's in philanthropy, it's not necessarily it's not financial to you, but it's rewarding. If it's in something where you're just laughing and really enjoying your life, or it's with your kids. That's also got a return on its investment also, but time becomes more valuable. So then different reasons make you have to streamline and have your plan be different. But it's not the reasons that you thought it was. It's not oh, is the business exactly where I wanted to be. It's just there are only so many buckets, so you decide how to have fewer buckets full the things that then as you keep going on the path, then you're like, well, you know this is really important to me, and this I love doing so much, and that I don't love doing so much, so that's gonna have to fall by the wayside, considering that also doesn't make me a lot of money, or something like me doing reality television, which made me a lot of money, but it just didn't fit into the buckets that were important to me. So that's where I think. As you get older, that's when you start streamlining, but for different reasons. And when you're younger, I hear you, but you know what helped me. I'll share this because of the job I think I did. Because every day, especially in the service, when you put your best on, you understand today I might get shot. I might get killed because you're protecting someone who's a high value target. You're you're going out there, we're doing we even you know, we would execute search warrants or rest warrants that we do undercover stuff. So every day I understood it could be my last day, and so for me, I think it was a blessing and it was truly only one time in my career where I remember I was like, I'm done, this is my last day on this planet. I think it was maybe twenty five at the time of twenty six, and I remember in that moment when things were happening and flashing before me, I remember thinking, this is it. I'm done, and I was thinking about my life as a nay. I was thinking about what did I do, how did I live it? And that always I ended up living, surviving the situation and incident, and I remember thinking after that, I'm going to live as if it's truly my last And I think maybe that job that I had really helped me with that. So I guess I live with if I go tomorrow, am I okay with it? That's why I said, and you stop to that. I feel like that. I feel like either I I feel It's one of two things, Bethany. I either did what I set out to do, or I did everything I could I could to try to execute something that maybe I didn't get to do yet, but I know I did everything I could to try to accomplish this. Okay, well, so all right, so you you I'm going to think of the working for the New York Police Department as a corporate structure because it's hard to be seen, and you're a woman, and you're in a box and you've got to just, you know, do your grunt work like everyone else. So how did you get seen, how did you stand out? How did you move from there into the Secret Service? And how did that trajectory happen? Truly, it happened really quickly. I pretty much went from one like finishing what one academy to the next. I just applied on my own to the U. S. Secret Service. I thought, you know what, why not let them tell me no? And and I applied to multiple agencies. Actually I think it was FBI, d E A. And it was in the process with all of them just secret. You're allowed to do all that while you're just a police officer. So everybody's allowed to apply for whatever they want, Like you can just go go through police Academy, your cop you're giving out tickets or whatever your beat is. I didn't get to do all of that, know whoever, whatever, whatever I think if it as in a TV show, like what what what would my focus if I went through police Academy? What would I where would I be tomorrow? What would my job be? When you go through the academy, you you they ask you where would you like to go, and you typically pick a precinct. You typically pick one you first start on patrol. Patrol is the officers you see on the street patrolling the area, whether it's on foot or whether it's in their vehicle. Usually start that way. The idea is before you can do anything beyond that, you need to be on the street. You need to learn people, you need to handle yourself on the street. That's where you typically start, and then from there, I think it's after about two years, you're either it depends on the department. You can either take a sergeant's exam if you want to move up, or you can try to be a detective. You can go that way, or some people just love where they are and they just stay where they are because there are certain you know, requirements, like you have to have a college degree to move up certain ranks. So for me, I just ended up going to a different agency altogether. And look, before I left, I asked, it was the lieutenant that was in charge. Actually he was at the academy. I said, look, I was offered this job. I like, you here a lot. I'm not sure what to do. And he encouraged me to the Secret Service. Yeah, he think it's a unique opportunity. It's very hard to get and go. And I remember he's like, if you don't like it, come back, we'll take you back. And I remember, I don't remember his name, but I remember what a genuine person to give me that advice. And so I just jumped from one agency, one department, so to speak, to the next. Okay, so that but that sounds super like fancy and movie like. So you go to the quote unquote Secret Service. If I if I said she works with Secret Service, that sounds like that sounds crazy. So it just sounds like a big damn deal. So when did you then? So you're what are you doing there? And how do you then get to to to protect presidents? That doesn't see like a very easy gig to get No. So most people have this misunderstanding that US Secret Service all you do is protect the presidents. That is not true. So you go through this whole training academy. There's two that you have to pass. When is federal it's where all federal agents go to where everybody goes to um learn what's we're caught required by the federal government. You have to graduate that. Past that, then you go to your second phase, which is the actually US Secret Service training. You go to that, you pass back. Then what you end up doing is they end up putting you in the field. So the agency has or the Service has offices all over the world to include New York, and so you'll go to that office and your work cases. So you have a Secret Service to dual mission. They do protection not just the president, former presidents, vice president, first ladies, former first ladies, foreign heads of states. Somebody comes from another country Bethany to visit here, a king or a queen or a prime minister, they get protection. So there's a whole whole protection angle there. And then in addition to that, cases they were cases counterfeit money fraud, scams, electronic fraud, anything that happens online, Like somebody goes to donate money to want to be strong, right and it's a scam, like they would they could step in and just say we're going to investigate this, right, So they do all of that. So you're doing that the majority of your career. Then then you can they'll come to you and say where would you like to do go to do full time protection? Not until this point, you'll help out in different areas. So I would help out protecting the current President Bush Jr. At that time, or former President Clinton at that time, or whoever while working all my cases. But there comes a point where they'll ask you, would you like where would you like to go permanently? It's called phase two where you have to do it now this happens several years later. You do not automatically go to the president. It is very hard to go to a current sitting president. But if you ask for it, then you have to go through another internal selection process basically another internal mini academy thinking like that, and then if you pass that then even then maybe you get to go. So it's uh, it's it's quite a process to go through. I did I followed that process, and I ended up being able to pass and then go into the protective detail for President Barack Obama while he was the current sitting the president. So you went through all of these these gauntlets, this obstacle course, was it worth it? Was? It? Is? It? Is there? A there? There is it that insane like amazing exciting and and and does it feel so important? And next level you don't realize. I hear you. You're kind of like, right, the euphoria of it while you're going through it, it sucks, right, It's just like my body hurts, this hurts, I'm bleeding, my I can't see straight in front of me, I think, And it's for me. It's like when it's done, then you're like, oh my god, I did this. I made it through this. You know when they hand over your badge and gun and you're really like this is really mine to take home and they give you your vest. But as you're going through it, and I don't know, Bethany, if you've experienced and the things you've gone through, I don't want to say it wasn't fun. There's no enjoyment. But when when anything I've done that's been meaningful, has been hard, Like in that moment, it's just hard. It's afterward that you feel that Wow. I actually just nothing good comes easy, nothing, nothing good comes easy. Wow. So you've discussed before. I don't know if you can explain it. What your most it sounded like your most scary experience, What was the most um, what was your biggest success? What has your biggest success been so far? And it sounds like you're now it's infotainment. It sounds like you're educating and you're a professor and you're teaching people really important messages and skills, but you also have a fun entertainment aspect of it. So it sounds like there's a big infotainment aspect to your career. I am infotainment. You are infotainment because it's very serious what you talk about, but you're entertaining, which is totally fine. Um, what has been your greatest success and what has been your greatest failure? And then I guess the most scared you've ever been? And then the most sort of exhilarated, you know, the biggest sort of thrill. Wow. You have good questions and some of these I don't know. I've never stopped to think about what is my greatest success. I don't know. I just I think it's I just do. I don't think. I don't dwell on things. I just do. And I guess maybe made greatest success is I just don't care. If I feel I just don't care. I cared in certain ways, I think maybe, like, for example, we used to have this term in the service. We would say not on my watch, meaning whenever you got geared up to be with the president he's going out and doing stuff. You never wanted him to be attacked or hurt while you're protecting him. It was probably one of the worst things that could happen to you as an agent, to have that happen on your watch, because it's it's because so many layers of security going beforehand, Bethany, like the proactive part that if the threat actually gets to you, it means all those layers of security failed and that's not a good thing. So I think that would be my greatest success is that for the most part, like I just didn't care. As far as my failure. Man, I feeled so many times that so many things, Bethany, I don't even know where it would begin. I'm okay with it I failed. I failed my first log exam when I went into the U. S. Secret Service Federal Training Center. I don't know what was I was walking into. And I walked into that and I didn't do a good job. Um, and I had to regroup and it was a good kick in the But and I think maybe even in my infatainment career, which projects I choose or don't choose, and I'll make the right choice. Am I listening to the right people? And the days where I rocket and there's days where maybe I don't rocket, if that makes sense. So I think failure for me is consistent. I think the more I do, the more I feel. But but the more I hit it out of the park every once in a while, and that's I feel that all you that's all you need because you're taking chances. You're not gonna If you're not taking a chances, you're not growing. And that's that's how that's how you fail, That's how you bomb by by stretching yourself. Um, do you and your personal life are you able to detect bullshit more than the average person? Or do you sometimes feel in your personal relationships or with x IS or whatever that you've been the last to know, which is ridiculous because of what you do for a living. You know what's sad, it's it's a blessing and a curse because the majority of the time I see it coming, and so you read people. And here's the thing what happens is and the reason why we don't see it coming. Sometimes look at the beginning of relationships. We see people's positive the positive stuff they put out there because that's what they're gonna put out there. It's they're in more control of themselves there in this euphoria. So are you of feeling good? There's also something like scientifically called like neurocupling, where we feed off of each other. We see the world in the same way and we really, you know, feel good hormones in our body and this is why the beginning things feel so good. There's nothing wrong with us. And I think sometimes feel like they've been shammed, and the truth is, like, it's just what's having to be happening to you is just there's science behind it and biology behind it. Then when that kind of fizzles out, that's when we start seeing the behavior a little bit more clearly. And when we get shafted so to speak, or people kind of take, you know, confuse us, or we see things we're like, how did I not see that? The reason is, Bethany, it's hard for us to separate the behavior from the person. And so what we do is somebody we know our love will do something, we'll say, well, that's just how he is. You know he means this because one, it's also an investment, like, that's our investment. We don't want to lose in our investment in this person. We put all this time and energy and money, right, all these things we've put into and so it's not to our benefit. So we we don't see the behavior clearly. It's after it's done, right after we walk away, where we stop and you ever have that all those nickels start dropping and you're thinking, I saw that, I saw that. I saw that. You put the puzzle together afterwards, Yes, it's not that you missed it. You saw it, but at the time you saw it, you're you're you're messing the two worlds the behavior, but with with him or her, whoever the person's is, it's like, it's okay, it's just you know, Bob, right, that's just how it. Bob is so you decide I've had enough of Bob, and then you're looking at it and you're thinking, I saw all this stuff. That's what happens. But you don't do that in work, which is interesting. You would never do that in work. In work, it would be black and white and you would never have that. You would never have the luxury of that margin of error to make mistakes spethany, or to oh, miss something. I guess if you see something suspect you would never miss something in your business life, but in your personal life are psyche or subconscious allows us to miss it because we're more emotionally tied to that. Persons like this, methany. Somebody comes to you with a problem and you're thinking, oh, that's easy to do this, this and this and this done. Let's move on. But when it's your problem, because you're so much closer to it, because you're still to it, you can't see right. That's why, whenever you're trying to problem solve, having a good person to bounce things off of is great because they can separate the behavior and the action and give you clear guidance. This is how you should handle this. If you bring yourself to a point whether in work or you know, or personal relationships, to look at the behavior, forget the person that's doing it, just look at the behavior and just plug into somebody else. If somebody else we're doing this, or somebody else came to me and said, my partner or my friend is doing this, what guidance would I give them? And then you'll be able to actually see them clearly. Do you want to look for behavior and try to get rid of the identity of the person? I love that. I love that. Yes. Do you like for people to know what you do for a living or your experience or do you not want them to know? Do you not want to or do use it like a badass thing? Or is it like something once in a while you want to just like, you know, uh, sort of surprise someone with it. I mean, I wonder when it's sort of like a tool, and I wonder when it's used. I mean, in a movie, it would be sitting at a bar and someone takes you seriously and talks about your cleavage and wants to buy you a drink and then you just like you know, elbow them and knock them over the bar and then show them you're bad. But I mean in real life, what happened? What happened when someone underestimates to you as a person, not just as a woman, I just mean as a person because you're a badass. I think when you know who you are in your ground and you don't need to tell anybody anything, you can just dismiss people. And I think that's probably one of the best things that was given to me over the years, is the ability to feel grounded and strong and who I am. I think because of all the challenges and the adversity and obstacles you have to go through, not just to be in that job, but to stay on it, and it always made me feel grounded. So no, I've never well, now I'm an infiltainment so it's different. It's different. Correct. I'm sharing it now in a public way, but in general, actually don't like to speak about it. I don't feel like I need to speak about it. It's like, I guess you're you're a business mo you know, Mogo, You're like on top of your game, and it's you know you are right. How do you handle I'm curious, how do you deal with people who underestimate you? Does it even bother you? Um, it's not that I'm um, and it does well, it's funny. It does happen more with men, and I didn't, but I would never fought quote unquote men. Now that I look back and do what you said and put the pieces of the puzzle back together, it's sort of just like a talking down to in a different industry, meaning saying, well, no, the way it's done here, you know, like a little bit of talking down to and a little and then um, I get a little height but it's just I get a little heightened and I back it up. But it actually happened recently with a woman, now that I think about. It's somebody who just decided to sort of talk down to to my team a little bit and underestimate the value of what we were doing. And then I will I just will sort of come in like a lawyer with you know, backing it up with all of the things that we've done and who we are, and just with intelligence. I think I come in with being super sharp and intelligent. And it tends to scare people a little bit, but it's not intentional. It's just if I don't say anything and I don't care what anyone thinks until someone backs me up into a corner. I don't come for anyone ever until they come from me, and then it's hard to hit stop. Do you know what those interesting you? Actually? So you do actually have to check people? Um, and this is research research and science actually shows that when we don't check people in whatever way we need to check them, that it actually can embolden them behavior in the earlier week, can check them in the relationship, so to speak, whatever that relationship is business personal. Yes, the less likely there continue to keep escalating. And so when you can check them earlier, be direct, earlier, bessiny and shut it down or just exactly then, right, you less likely to deal with that problem more. Otherwise it keeps going. Well, it's what exactly. I told my daughter this because a person was sort of telling her who she could and couldn't be friends with. And you have to tell this person that and the other thing I said to her. Listen, you, adelaide, here's the we we pad, here's where you pee, here's where you don't pay as it keep it nice and light and bright. But you let this person thank you so much. We don't need to be discussing this. I'm not interested in this conversation and you shut it down, and you'll feel and secure in the moment because that person is still trying to bully you. But when they realize they can't bully you, they won't go for you, and it'll be unsettling for them that you are the one person that didn't succumb to the bullying. And it happened exactly as I said it, And you're right, it happens for people who are listening. It happens in the workplace, happens in relationships. Um. But yes, there was there was a new dynamic and a new deal and someone thought that they could not to me, but talk to my team in a certain way and demand certain things of my team, and everything gets back to me and I had to literally shut it down. And you know, and everyone talks behind the scenes. Most people don't go to the problem. I'm the person that will go straight. So there's some listen, in no situation whatsoever would ever be acceptable that you could speak to anybody on my team this way. My team is me and I am them, and there's there's no way that you can operate this way and always be willing to walk away in those situations. Otherwise you might have to. You know, you always have to know when you kind of can't eat crow in these situations. I you know, you can't pull, you can't give an ultimatum, and you can't you can't bluff if you're not willing to walk. You know what you did, Bethany, that was really smart. You came back with facts. Most people right back with emotion. You made me feel this way, I feel that way, and that right where you came with that information. Hey this, Hey this, and hey this, because that is difficult to fight back when you give fascial information. This is what we're bringing. This is what we're doing. This is how it is. This is what the expectations are. Those are facts, rather than coming in from an emotional place, which you potentially could and that that those never go well. But when you come in and down with those facts, Bethany, it's kind of like, oh shit, checked. You're right about checking people. It's the we we pad this is we just want to let everybody know the rules to the game. This is what it is. And it's true because whether someone's asking for a raise or you know, it's it's not what you're asking for, it's how you're asking for it, how you operate, how you're doing it, and it sounds like it sounds like your background has really really been amazing and giving you these tools to help others and probably so many areas of their lives and protecting themselves in confidence, in being a woman in a man's world, and well what's more a woman's world than it used to be? But and also just you know how to move forward gracefully while setting boundaries. Yeah, it's interesting. I think probably the thing that helped me the most is because I became an interrogator at one point for the agency. It was their polygraph examiner. And one of the things they did is they send me to Department of Defense to learn how to interview and interrogate people and understand human behavior. And then I was sent to go get my master's and forensic psychology, and the idea was, it doesn't matter who walks in my room, I'm able to engage, communicate, and deal with that individual. I think those probably all those interviews over all those years, and then bringing those tools even to today, even when I'm doing my in you know, my infiltainment talking even today talking to producers or talking to an agent or whoever i'm I'm always aware and aunt because you know what I noticed. It's easy to say this person is bad, this person is good. We'd like to put people in boxes, and this is how we missed stuff. The truth is everybody is a mixture of both. We try to have the good outweigh the bad, but even good people because they are looking out for themselves. Because we rationalize doing something negative, we can rationalize it to maybe hurt somebody, or take advantage somebody, or maybe cut somebody out of a deal. If you can understand that anybody is capable at any given moment in time, if given the opportunity, then you are aware of all behavior and you're looking at the behavior. Most people fall into this gray area. And I think that that's what's helped me a lot, because I went from seeing people as literally right, wrong, black and white to just understanding that there's so much gray and if you can read through that, you really will understand better rather than taking someone and throwing him into a box and being like that person is just bad and then leaving them there. And it's this is when you miss the good people who do cause you harm, because who can cause you harm? And maybe they do it, and harm doesn't have to be intentional. Most harm that people cause us is unintentional. They think I didn't do anything wrong. I didn't think this was upse upset you. I don't understand it. Or people are able to rationalize and justify things that they do to such a point where that's why when you talk to them, they're looking at you like you have ten heads, Like I don't know what you're talking about. What do you think about a woman being the breadwinner in a relationship? Why not? Are you in a relationship? Yes, I am. Okay, you're married? Okay, So you don't wear a wedding ring? Is that a symbol? Is that because you don't want to be thought of as married? Or you're just not wearing your wedding ring right now? I'm just not because I worked out earlier today. Bettany, Okay, because I never Sometimes I read up on someone and it says something about them, and I always like to just learn from myself here in case this is something. Okay, So you're married and you don't have kids? I do know. Okay, So what is your dynamic? Are you married to someone who's private? Is he? What is he is? He intimidated by you in any way? Does he love what you do? What's the dynamic in your relationship success? So I am fortunate because he comes from so he's he's more private currently right now, but he comes from the same background that I wasn't so where I was in the government type of federal agency background, he's still there. I have since left, so he's there. So I think what's helped me is that because of what he does, because he is so secure him in himself, it doesn't matter what I do. So even though I'm a bit more of a public on a public platform, he's very supportive and very proud and um helpful. But he was before. However, I can say that because he did what I did, there were no issues now, Bethany, I don't know if that would have been the case, and this is a fair question if somebody else who did something very different would have been okay, I don't know, because it's a very strong type of career that I had, right and I have a a strong and was a strong personality. You can have a strong personality personality, but I do have certain things that I've done in my life that maybe maybe an average person might say I don't agree with these, or I don't like these, or why can't you not be trying to do all this stuff? Um, well, you speak the same language. You come from, you speak the same language. I often say that I think that people should be in relationships with other people that have fundamental similarities to them, Meaning things get challenging when there are major cultural differences, religious differences, how you want to raise your kids, where you want to live, like just the way you are, how close you are with your parents. Things like that really do seem novel in the beginning, but as relationships move on, these cracks become creators in my opinion. So that's why I was just asking what type of person that you were in a relationship with, because you go in many different direct actions, but it sounds like you have similar fundamentals. You've just gone a little more commercial and he's still more conservative. Yes, yes, exactly. Can I ask Euslyn bethany do you find that because you have chiefd so much and done so much, has that been something for you that has been difficult to find individuals that are secure within themselves. You know it has, and but I put it more on myself in the sense that I'm such a strong personality, I'm independent, I support myself, I'm my daughter, and I are in the unique love affair were so close and connected that the ideals that you had as a younger girl and woman about what getting married was about and what finding prince charming was about, they've changed because when you were younger, you wanted someone to rescue you. I had a crazy, scary childhood, so someone was going to just save me, and I was gonna be married young and someone's gonna take care of me, and that was what the point was. So as you get older and you have your own child and you can support yourself, which was shocked, Like the fact that I could be a person that supports myself and can pay my rent is shocking to me. Just was not something I was secure about my whole life. So then you have to really find someone who's a partner and find the right common ground and reasons to be in a partnership because they're not those traditional Prince Charming is gonna take care of me, and I'm not gonna work, and I'm with that person so we can have kids together, and I need that person to buy me a house and all these superficial societal reasons. And I don't love that about fairy tales and children's books and everything, because it's just real life. Adult partnership in your forties and fifties is not as sexy as a big fancy dress and a chariot a waiting. So it's more about how to find the right partner at this point in your life. So it's additive. You're not you're not insecure. You're not just meeting someone to check off these boxes. You're finding a partner to enhance your life. So it's just different. Does that make making any sense? When I say that, it does make sense. You're not looking for a partner to fix it or to fill the void in your life. You're looking for a person to come in and complement or add to that value to your life. Right. They're not there to make you whole, no, and they have to you know, if you're working on philanthropy and you go on these trips to places all over the world and someone has to understand that, which isn't that easy. And if you have a daughter and an interesting, challenging divorce, that's part of As we get older, we have more stuff going on, so things aren't just black and white, and I think that's also a blessing. I think relationships when people are older are obviously more mature, but for very different reasons. And it's hard for people that meet in their twenties and get married in their twenties to go on the same journey. Somebody sometimes gets lost on that journey because it's not really their journey. Some pretended they were someone they wanted the other person to think they were, and then they're on the wrong road. It's just marriage. I see why marriage can be difficult for younger people, because both people want to evolve in their own life and become their own full person. Yeah, and you don't involve involved in the same direction. You evolve in different ways, right exactly. That's why I just asked you. Because you've had a very specific trajectory and a very strong personality and probably intimidating in certain areas. Uh. And it makes sense that you're with someone who speaks your language, who understands. I also married late Bethany. To be honest, like I really, I'm married late in my my my life, like later than most women. I'm married in my late thirties, so by then everyone around me was married and looking at me kind of like, what is wrong with you? And I I remember thinking, I'm like, I just don't I just I was like, I just don't want to get married to get married, don't want to get married and find a good partner. Right. That took some time for me. Yeah. I didn't have my daughter until later later in life too, which is in my late thirties. And it's you're making decisions for different reasons then, Yeah, women have challenging road and deciding it doesn't all fit. It really just doesn't all fit. You can't be in good shape and good health, looking good, having a serious career, having a full family, keeping your house clean, doing charity great, in bed with your partner. It's not that easy to keep it all up in the air. It's really not. I mean, you know, I thank you. You're saying that thank you because when I hear people say you could have it all, that is the biggest I is a lot. You can have it all, maybe in your entire lifetime, but not in the same moment. So for example, like when I was in the Service, my Secret Service, that was my life, right, that was my life. I had no other life in any other way. So I was excelling in that area and that moment. Yes, yeah, I mean you could have it all, but you would enjoy it all. Meaning it's like I could eat a whole every snack in the cabinet, but I'm not gonna feel satisfied. You're just sort of doing it to do it. Yeah, you could jam it all in, but that sounds like a disaster. But you can't do it all right, you can't. It's like I'm gonna go through your body, like even your body, your fitness, your health. I sometimes you go through you go through motions where you do want to work out, you don't want to work out, or you're not feeling healthy, you are feeling healthy, and I think it's like it's just it's kind of this up and down thing and allowing it to be that you can't. You can't check all those boxes every single day. No, Okay, So that's a great question. So I've never asked it before. That's gonna be a new one. I'm gonna add, um, what are the five or three three to five boxes you're checking now? It could be overall or could be today. Let's do overall, and what are the three to five, you're not, and I'll do mine after, like meaning working out, feeling healthy to tie or rested, whatever you're and what are the most important to you, what really matters to you. Okay, I'll give you my daily boxes. These are things like in my life that I've realized I have to keep and I try to maintain sleep eight hours of sleep minimum. I'm the sleep queen. I don't sleep. I can't. This does my brain doesn't function right. UM. I've noticed that that's helped me quite a bit in every possible way. Um. Sleep, meditation, that's a priority. You're making it a priority. You're in it, and make it a priority, even if it's three minutes. Bethany, I'm just a very UM. I have a lot of heat. Maybe it's a cultural thing. I'm Greek or whatever, and so for me to kind of stay grounded and kind of chill and think clearly, I just even if it's even if it's only three minutes, I throw it in there. Working out almost daily, I don't care if it's ten minute workout or thirty minute workout. I just found that consistency that keeps me strong and balanced and mentally and physically. UM, I think those are my Honestly, those are three. I'm trying to any to to always going outside on a daily basis. On a daily basis, I will go outside the house, even though, like I know we're COVID in this and that, I always exit my house so I let the sun hit me or let the air hit me. That's that's actually something I do, no matter what. And I feel like you look cute every day. I feel like you put yourself together, which is something. And I don't mean that as a criticism. It's an envy. Sometimes I don't bethany sometimes like I just I will put my hat on and I will go be me. I tried to look nice for you today. No, and you very much do you very much do? And I try to, but I never six. I'll tell you my three, and I'll tell you three. I fail at most days. So what if? What if? What are you failing at? What are you not? What are you not getting done? What do I not get done? So I have a sweet tooth, so I may have a doughnut or I may go to Dunk of Donuts. Is my weakness. So I'm just putting it out there. That's that. But I also allow myself to be that like I can't. I can't be I can't let that beat perfection. And I think was my failure m if I I will catch myself if I start to have if I have started to have negative thoughts or start to feel negative or snap, which which can happen to all of us, so as it happens to anyone else, I will catch myself. I will remove myself. Okay, well, then you're I think you're doing a pretty great job. You're having most of it at all because I'm putting sleep as a priority fully and failing a lot of the time. But I'm putting sleep as a priority exercises, not sleep as a priority over exercise. I can't fit them both in. I can, once in a while do exercise. I just can't do both of those things. Being a great mom I and my daughter and I connecting and being loving. I've I've checked that box. But also being a little snappy with her. That's where I'm failing. Both of us are and she's a tween and we're having that snappiness but definitely connected love and um. Maybe I'm not being present enough as a partner and I'm I'm always half a failure. I'm always gonna get like five out of ten right and five out of ten wrong. You know, it's we're telling me yours. I started thinking of all of mine, So even as a partner, we're talking about relationships. So because it works busy for me. Now that does take a back sine. I actually spoke to my my husband the other day. I said, you know, I need to make you more of a priority. I'm we're so work focused and we need to be us focused too, and so let's kind of bring that forward a bit. So, yes, one of those things that I have been missing and I'm working on there, rose and thorn, your rose of your career and your thorn of your career, a rose of career, probably working in the White House, walking in there and being like, oh gosh, I'm like, how did I I'm here? Did I know you? Do these Do these presidents former presidents know you? If you saw them at a restaurant? Would they know you? I think a couple of them would. I think the work spent the most time with would recognize me yet because you're with them on a personal level, or their kids, like I had George Bush Junior's daughter for a while, Barbara, and so she knows me. And so when you spend some time with them like you, they know you. Usually it's it's a former president or not the current president. They're usually smaller details. Those folks seems to know you pretty well. And the first lady, I spent two years on her detail, so I knew her pretty you know, she was used to seeing me all the time. Got it? Okay, Great, that's the rose being in the White House. And then the thorn. It's just so many thorns. I'm trying to think, Um, you know, I have one. My dad passed and he had like a very gruff kind of personality. I loved him, and I think he wasn't the type of person that would say I love you or engage you a lot. It was just part of who he was not that he didn't love. And I think I could have I could have been a little softer. I could have maybe shown him more love because we kind of bumped time because we had same personality. And even though we had a wonderful relationship, and even when he passed, like it was, you know, I was there, it was with him the whole time. I think back and I think I think of those moments where I could have been a better daughter, and when I think of how it could have been, like a little less ego, a little little water in my wine maybe, Okay, alright, I like that? All right? Is there anything else? We didn't get to it? So? So so what what did I did? I forget anything? We talked about? Bulletproof? Was your book? Is it Unstoppable? Is your YouTube series my YouTube series? Yes? Yeah, we never and everything. Well, it was so good to meet you. You are so honest and open and what an interesting story and what a strong woman. Uh you are tiny but tough. So I appreciate the conversation so much. I hope we get to me. I mean, this is who's been sitting here with me. By the way, I've been looking at this guy with a straight face the whole time. Yoda, that's what we're sitting here. I don't know why. I just decided I needed him today for some was my emotional support? Jedi um anyway, he's my protect he's my service, he's my detail, He's well Bethany, thank you so much. Like I love all the stuff that you do. Jill speaks the world of you, and I'm just so happy to have been on and I admire you as well, like everything you've done and just the goals and just crushing it out there and just being like who you are. My hat's off to you. Thank you so much. Well, I can't wait to meet you because you're in New York and I know you're in a storia and I want to know the best Greek restaurant. Lukumi l o u k o u m I okay, I want to go. I love Greek food and I love Greece, So you can tell me everything. Awesome. Thank you so much, and tell your husband I said, Hi, what a sweet person. I mean, honestly to read about her history to go into to be a woman, I mean, she's a beautiful, cute, sweet little blonde honestly that worked in the NYPD and then went into secret serve. This guarding Michelle Obama, uh Clinton, many former presidents first ladies, just risking her life in the most serious, intense, legitimate way you only see in movies and uh now works in infotainment as I as I coined it. But just it's just funny the people who have these interesting stories that I honestly would have never known about and I mean crazy, what an honest, sweet, strong, passionate soul. I'm so glad I had that conversation and I can't wait to get together with her. I don't usually want to get together with people, but I really want to get together with her and pick her brain that more. But she's like a really strong person. I found it very interesting that she, like me, never really thought about being a woman. And she was in the police force and in the Secret Service and it didn't really occur to her the difference between her as a woman and a man in that role, which is such a common current discussion right now in the world, just about being a woman in a man's world, being a woman in a man's world. But sometimes you know, what if you don't think about that first? What if you obviously know that, What if you deal with that and approach that, but what if you don't really lead with that. That's something that was really an interesting conversation and surprising. I didn't think that she would have that answer. Great conversation. Do any of you have stories like this I want to hear for future episodes about stories that you know of, or if you have just plowed through you have just written your own story, played by your own rules, not listen to society or gender or labels, and you have just done it your own way or the highway.

Just B with Bethenny Frankel

If you can’t handle the truth you can’t handle this podcast. Just B with Bethenny Frankel is the bes 
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