The world is such a hot mess: every day a new disaster, a new human rights catastrophe. It can just feel… endless. Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch joins us to talk about outrage and trauma and community building - it’s like the greatest hits of modern culture. But mostly, she joins us to talk about art - specifically, the ways that storytelling helps us band together and work towards the world we all want. 

PS: Listen all the way through so you don’t miss Aubrey’s slightly sinister but ultimately functional ideas on hope. 



In this episode we cover: 

- The relationship between rage and creation: when there’s so much wrong with the world all you can do is scream

- Why taking action to change things matters - even if your actions won’t save everyone

- Women and anger: hoo boy, it’s a whole thing. 

- Why healing inside trauma is actually kind of… boring. 

- Connecting through the power of storytelling



We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.



Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.





About our guest:

Aubrey Hirsch is the author of Why We Never Talk About Sugar, a collection of short stories, and This Will Be His Legacy, a flash fiction chapbook. Her stories, essays and comics have appeared widely in print and online in places like American Short Fiction, Vox, TIME,The New York Times, The Rumpus, The Toast, and in the New York Times bestselling anthology, Not That Bad. Her essay on trauma and surviving gun violence is a must read. Find it here.



About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief



Additional Resources:

Aubrey occasionally teaches comics for “non-artists.” Check her TW @aubreyhirsch for announcements. 

Aubrey publishes new comics and essays on Roxane Gay’s substack, The Audacity. 

Aubrey’s written on so many topics relevant to human life. Find a long list of awesome essays on her website, aubreyhirsch.com

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You're Not OK andHow to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us atrefugeingrief.com

The world is such a hot mess: every day a new disaster, a new human rights catastrophe. It can just feel… endless. Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch joins us to talk about outrage and trauma and community building - it’s like the greatest hits of modern culture. But mostly, she joins us to talk about art - specifically, the ways that storytelling helps us band together and work towards the world we all want. 
PS: Listen all the way through so you don’t miss Aubrey’s slightly sinister but ultimately functional ideas on hope. 
 
In this episode we cover: 
- The relationship between rage and creation: when there’s so much wrong with the world all you can do is scream
- Why taking action to change things matters - even if your actions won’t save everyone
- Women and anger: hoo boy, it’s a whole thing. 
- Why healing inside trauma is actually kind of… boring. 
- Connecting through the power of storytelling
 
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.
 
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief <a href="http://refugeingrief.com/wyg">course here</a>.
 
About our guest:
Aubrey Hirsch is the author of <a href="https://amzn.to/4coZLad">Why We Never Talk About Sugar</a>, a collection of short stories, and <a href="https://squareup.com/market/lettered-streets-press/preorder-split-series-volume-aubrey-hirsch-alexis-pope">This Will Be His Legacy</a>, a flash fiction chapbook. Her stories, essays and comics have appeared widely in print and online in places like American Short Fiction, Vox, TIME, The New York Times, The Rumpus, The Toast, and in the New York Times bestselling anthology, <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9780062413512">Not That Bad</a>. Her essay on trauma and surviving gun violence is a must read. <a href="https://audacity.substack.com/p/over-and-over-again">Find it here</a>.
 
About Megan: 
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781622039074">It’s Ok that You’re Not OK</a>, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
 
Additional Resources:
Aubrey occasionally teaches comics for “non-artists.” Check her TW <a href="https://twitter.com/aubreyhirsch">@aubreyhirsch</a> for announcements. 
Aubrey publishes new comics and essays on Roxane Gay’s substack, <a href="https://substack.com/profile/1849120-roxane-gay">The Audacity</a>. 
Aubrey’s written on so many topics relevant to human life. Find a long list of awesome essays on her website, <a href="https://aubreyhirsch.com/">aubreyhirsch.com</a>
Want to talk with Megan directly? <a href="https://www.patreon.com/megandevine">Join our patreon community</a> for live monthly Q&amp;A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? <a href="https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd0EjlSBXpJCil0TqCMp1sC-1SlWfBpC_jcVPOmrH5eJTMSFw/viewform">Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here</a>. 
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -<a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781622039074"> It’s OK That You're Not OK</a> and<a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781683643708"> How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed</a>
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Follow our show on<a href="https://www.instagram.com/refugeingrief/"> Instagram</a>,<a href="https://www.facebook.com/refugeingrief/"> Facebook</a>,<a href="https://twitter.com/refugeingrief"> Twitter</a>, and<a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@refugeingrief"> TikTok</a> @refugeingrief and<a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@itsokpod"> @itsokpod</a> on TikTok.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at<a href="https://refugeingrief.com/"> refugeingrief.com</a>

Life is full of difficult things, from tiny everyday disappointments to life-altering events. Everyone’s at least a little bit Not OK, something grief expert and psychotherapist Megan Devine knows from the inside out. In wide ranging, insightful, deep conversations, Megan talks with people about their often invisible losses - and what they’ve learned about being seen and supported in difficult times. 

With guests pulled from the front lines of entertainment, medicine, education, and activism, the conversations in It’s OK that You’re Not OK are funny, complex, emotional, and hopeful - maybe not your typical dinner party topics, but none of us are entirely OK, and it’s time we start talking about that.

New episodes each and every Monday, from the author of the best-selling book, It’s OK That You’re Not OK, and iHeartMedia. Find Megan online at @refugeingrief & follow the show @ItsOKPod

Life is full of difficult things, from tiny everyday disappointments to life-altering events. Everyone’s at least a little bit Not OK, something grief expert and psychotherapist Megan Devine knows from the inside out. In wide ranging, insightful, deep conversations, Megan talks with people about their often invisible losses - and what they’ve learned about being seen and supported in difficult times. 
With guests pulled from the front lines of entertainment, medicine, education, and activism, the conversations in It’s OK that You’re Not OK are funny, complex, emotional, and hopeful - maybe not your typical dinner party topics, but none of us are entirely OK, and it’s time we start talking about that.
New episodes each and every Monday, from the author of the best-selling book, It’s OK That You’re Not OK, and iHeartMedia. Find Megan online at @refugeingrief &amp; follow the show @ItsOKPod

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