Okay, Hello everyone. It's me James today and I'm joined by three guests or members of the Southeast Alaska Indigenous trans Boundary Commission. What we're talking about today is accepting indigenous leadership on issues of climate change and issues of more broadly ecological damage. And specifically we're discussing an emergency declaration that they recently released about the state of the Pacific salmon population. If I'm not mistaken, so I'm going to ask each of them to introduce themselves. If you could give us your name and any relevant affiliations that you think listeners should know, that would be wonderful.

Okay, Hello everyone. It's me James today and I'm joined by three guests or members of the Southeast Alaska Indigenous trans Boundary Commission. What we're talking about today is accepting indigenous leadership on issues of climate change and issues of more broadly ecological damage. And specifically we're discussing an emergency declaration that they recently released about the state of the Pacific salmon population. If I'm not mistaken, so I'm going to ask each of them to introduce themselves. If you could give us your name and any relevant affiliations that you think listeners should know, that would be wonderful.

Hello.

Hello.

My name is Kirby Mouldeau. My ancestral name is hopwell Asa. I am from the Simsan people in what is now known as Northwest British Columbia, Canada. My mother is jim San, my father is Gigsan, and I am from wilp we Get, which is the house of the Night Drummer from the Fireweed Plan.

My name is Kirby Mouldeau. My ancestral name is hopwell Asa. I am from the Simsan people in what is now known as Northwest British Columbia, Canada. My mother is jim San, my father is Gigsan, and I am from wilp we Get, which is the house of the Night Drummer from the Fireweed Plan.

I am also.

I am also.

An independent consultant and contractor and I look forward to our discussion today.

An independent consultant and contractor and I look forward to our discussion today.

Thank you, Thank you.

Thank you, Thank you.

Hi. I'm Louis Wagner Junior from Metlakatla, Alaska, and I'm Taquiddy of the brown Bear Plan from Cape Fox. Sanyu Kuan and I have lived in Metla Catla my whole life of seventy five years. And we're connected to the Eunuch River through my grandmother and she was born at Cape Fox. And we've been on the Eunuch River ever since I was big enough to go with my older brother and so I've been up there since like nineteen sixty wow, and my brothers was up to close to twenty years before that. So but our family has always been on the Eunich River to harvest. Had the fish camp up there and we'd fish the uligans, bring the uligans home to the people, and the catch can sacksmon metal catline. Then people would send them out to the West coast. So we're very connected. We go up to the Eunich in the spring for uligan and the fall for hunting. Now they used to do the salmon up on the river with the fish camp. I served on our community council from two thousand and two about I think twenty fifteen in there, and now i'm their tribal right rights representative for the community and I report back to our council after each of our meetings.

Hi. I'm Louis Wagner Junior from Metlakatla, Alaska, and I'm Taquiddy of the brown Bear Plan from Cape Fox. Sanyu Kuan and I have lived in Metla Catla my whole life of seventy five years. And we're connected to the Eunuch River through my grandmother and she was born at Cape Fox. And we've been on the Eunuch River ever since I was big enough to go with my older brother and so I've been up there since like nineteen sixty wow, and my brothers was up to close to twenty years before that. So but our family has always been on the Eunich River to harvest. Had the fish camp up there and we'd fish the uligans, bring the uligans home to the people, and the catch can sacksmon metal catline. Then people would send them out to the West coast. So we're very connected. We go up to the Eunich in the spring for uligan and the fall for hunting. Now they used to do the salmon up on the river with the fish camp. I served on our community council from two thousand and two about I think twenty fifteen in there, and now i'm their tribal right rights representative for the community and I report back to our council after each of our meetings.

Thank you very much. And Guy, would you like to introduce yourself.

Thank you very much. And Guy, would you like to introduce yourself.

Yes, my name is Guy Archibald. I'm the executive director of the Southeast Alaska Indigenous trans Boundary Commission. We were formed about nine years ago by a commission of fifteen sovereign tribes in Southeast Alaska reacting to a huge amount of mind development and further potential mind development going on in the trans boundary watersheds that drain from British Columbia to Alaska. I used to work at the mines. I'm an environmental chemist by trade. I helped tribes monitor their own environments and their food security through science. And yeah, I've looking forward to this discussion as well.

Yes, my name is Guy Archibald. I'm the executive director of the Southeast Alaska Indigenous trans Boundary Commission. We were formed about nine years ago by a commission of fifteen sovereign tribes in Southeast Alaska reacting to a huge amount of mind development and further potential mind development going on in the trans boundary watersheds that drain from British Columbia to Alaska. I used to work at the mines. I'm an environmental chemist by trade. I helped tribes monitor their own environments and their food security through science. And yeah, I've looking forward to this discussion as well.

Yeah, that's a fantastic setup for all of you. Thank you very much. So I think we should begin because maybe people may have missed the extent and the severity of the emergency with salmon populations, and so perhaps we could start out by explaining how it was. It seems like Louis you have a lot of experience there, and then what has caused things to be at a situation they're at now. Would that be a good way to go about it.

Yeah, that's a fantastic setup for all of you. Thank you very much. So I think we should begin because maybe people may have missed the extent and the severity of the emergency with salmon populations, and so perhaps we could start out by explaining how it was. It seems like Louis you have a lot of experience there, and then what has caused things to be at a situation they're at now. Would that be a good way to go about it.

Yes, that would be a good way. Where we are at now on the salmon is that bruce Jack mine started on the river and none of us knew about it until way late summers around the mid nineties, nineteen nineties, and by by two thousand, especially I'm in the spring when we've up there, that ooligans were starting to disappear, and then then the fall of moose hunting, the salmon were disappearing, and there's a lot less bears and moose now where the river along the river bank would be full of the parts of the fish that bears didn't eat. There'd be so many bears and fish, and now you don't smell any of that. But and it's really affected the king salmon. They completely disappeared for at least six years that my son and I noticed they spawn up on the river there, and as we always pay attention, we check on the main spawning stream of Kingsbury where they spawn. And the last three years we've been starting to see some come back, and that bruce Jack mine, which found out later they were put their tailings into a lake up on the mountain there and then you know, as they filled it up and the rain filled it up. The overflow came down into the river, and the river is so shallow, it's only a few inches deep, and it's it's not very wide. It's the smallest river out of the stacking and the taku there, and so any pollution in that river will completely kill it off. The salmon runs their way down from what we've seen through the years. But you know, it's also the wildlife that's disappearing with it, because there's the feet, isn't there. They's not the amount of seagulls, a lot less seals and sea lions. It's effecting on the food chain everything.

Yes, that would be a good way. Where we are at now on the salmon is that bruce Jack mine started on the river and none of us knew about it until way late summers around the mid nineties, nineteen nineties, and by by two thousand, especially I'm in the spring when we've up there, that ooligans were starting to disappear, and then then the fall of moose hunting, the salmon were disappearing, and there's a lot less bears and moose now where the river along the river bank would be full of the parts of the fish that bears didn't eat. There'd be so many bears and fish, and now you don't smell any of that. But and it's really affected the king salmon. They completely disappeared for at least six years that my son and I noticed they spawn up on the river there, and as we always pay attention, we check on the main spawning stream of Kingsbury where they spawn. And the last three years we've been starting to see some come back, and that bruce Jack mine, which found out later they were put their tailings into a lake up on the mountain there and then you know, as they filled it up and the rain filled it up. The overflow came down into the river, and the river is so shallow, it's only a few inches deep, and it's it's not very wide. It's the smallest river out of the stacking and the taku there, and so any pollution in that river will completely kill it off. The salmon runs their way down from what we've seen through the years. But you know, it's also the wildlife that's disappearing with it, because there's the feet, isn't there. They's not the amount of seagulls, a lot less seals and sea lions. It's effecting on the food chain everything.

Yeah, and I spent a little bit of time in your part of the world just pack rafting and hiking and things, and certainly it's a it's a very beautiful place, but it's very like a fragile one too. As you've explained that these minds can very quickly have this effect that cascades at the ecosystem. Could you explain a little bit of the role that salmon play not just in the in the provision of food for the for the animal life of the area, but also like the role they play traditionally in provisioning and feeding indigenous people.

Yeah, and I spent a little bit of time in your part of the world just pack rafting and hiking and things, and certainly it's a it's a very beautiful place, but it's very like a fragile one too. As you've explained that these minds can very quickly have this effect that cascades at the ecosystem. Could you explain a little bit of the role that salmon play not just in the in the provision of food for the for the animal life of the area, but also like the role they play traditionally in provisioning and feeding indigenous people.

Well, yeah, we you know, we put up as much sockey as we can and then then king salmon and then a lot of it we'll fish and get there in the winter to eat, you know, and just get them fresh because they don't keep as well in the freezer. But as indigenous, you could, you know, look in our pantry and see we've lived the same life as I grew up with my parents and grandparents. Nothing has changed for us. We've taught our children the same way to harvest and take care of the fish. Back in the fifties when his little kid in Mettle catal Alaska, hardly anyone if they even had a refrigerator. They didn't have freezers, so they had to smoke the fish really hard, and they put them in those things they're like four gallon coffee cans too, with newspaper on the bottom and on top. Then they would keep through the winter, they wouldn't wouldn't get moldy. So that was their the main staple for the for the whole year.

Well, yeah, we you know, we put up as much sockey as we can and then then king salmon and then a lot of it we'll fish and get there in the winter to eat, you know, and just get them fresh because they don't keep as well in the freezer. But as indigenous, you could, you know, look in our pantry and see we've lived the same life as I grew up with my parents and grandparents. Nothing has changed for us. We've taught our children the same way to harvest and take care of the fish. Back in the fifties when his little kid in Mettle catal Alaska, hardly anyone if they even had a refrigerator. They didn't have freezers, so they had to smoke the fish really hard, and they put them in those things they're like four gallon coffee cans too, with newspaper on the bottom and on top. Then they would keep through the winter, they wouldn't wouldn't get moldy. So that was their the main staple for the for the whole year.

Is it a situation now that like people just can't rely on salmon as a staple food because of the mining tailings, reducing the population.

Is it a situation now that like people just can't rely on salmon as a staple food because of the mining tailings, reducing the population.

Yeah, without any hardly any king salmon coming in. There's you know, a few from the hatchery out there, but they even in Kitchkan they've closed the king salmon derby for I think it's into its fourth year now. So it's just that that other big mine goes in the river will be destroyed and it's going to flow all the way out into into the ocean here into Clarence Streets and Dickson Entrance. There has been no avoiding it. It's got nowhere else to go with comes straight out to the West Beam Canal and then East Beam Canal.

Yeah, without any hardly any king salmon coming in. There's you know, a few from the hatchery out there, but they even in Kitchkan they've closed the king salmon derby for I think it's into its fourth year now. So it's just that that other big mine goes in the river will be destroyed and it's going to flow all the way out into into the ocean here into Clarence Streets and Dickson Entrance. There has been no avoiding it. It's got nowhere else to go with comes straight out to the West Beam Canal and then East Beam Canal.

KEB.

KEB.

I know you're not quite in exactly the same place, but can you explain the situation with the salmon population where you are?

I know you're not quite in exactly the same place, but can you explain the situation with the salmon population where you are?

Yeah, and maybe I'll give a little more context to that. I live in Northern British Columbia, Northwest British Columbia on the on the in the Skin of River watershed, and over the past uh, probably thirty or four years, we've seen an extreme decline in salmon uh, specifically sakei uh and king salmon as you guys call it. We call them spring salmon over here. But we've seen an extreme decline in returns. And you know, we've we've stopped a lot of our commercial fisheries and our food fisheries until which time we feel that the the returns are sufficient enough so that we can continue to harvest. So we've got the Taii Test Fishery at the mouth of the Schena, and they they do a count every year throughout starting in the spring and throughout most of the summer, they do a test fishery and they estimate the amount of salmon that are returning. And we do not fish, as I said, commercially or for food until we feel that the numbers are sufficient that have gone past that fishery. There are many obstacles that face salmon today, most of which are a result of human activity logging, mining, commercial fishing, oil and gas. And we all have to take a little bit of responsibility for that because we all enjoy those resources and we use them. And I've always said to people that we can't mine our way out of this global warming and climate change. We have to learn how to we have to learn how to use less. And as I said, you know, mining, obviously it's a big concern, but there's also logging, there's oil and gas as well as commercial fishery. You know, there's a lot of things that happen out in open waters in the North Pacific that can be changed fairly easily.

Yeah, and maybe I'll give a little more context to that. I live in Northern British Columbia, Northwest British Columbia on the on the in the Skin of River watershed, and over the past uh, probably thirty or four years, we've seen an extreme decline in salmon uh, specifically sakei uh and king salmon as you guys call it. We call them spring salmon over here. But we've seen an extreme decline in returns. And you know, we've we've stopped a lot of our commercial fisheries and our food fisheries until which time we feel that the the returns are sufficient enough so that we can continue to harvest. So we've got the Taii Test Fishery at the mouth of the Schena, and they they do a count every year throughout starting in the spring and throughout most of the summer, they do a test fishery and they estimate the amount of salmon that are returning. And we do not fish, as I said, commercially or for food until we feel that the numbers are sufficient that have gone past that fishery. There are many obstacles that face salmon today, most of which are a result of human activity logging, mining, commercial fishing, oil and gas. And we all have to take a little bit of responsibility for that because we all enjoy those resources and we use them. And I've always said to people that we can't mine our way out of this global warming and climate change. We have to learn how to we have to learn how to use less. And as I said, you know, mining, obviously it's a big concern, but there's also logging, there's oil and gas as well as commercial fishery. You know, there's a lot of things that happen out in open waters in the North Pacific that can be changed fairly easily.

You know, they there's a fishery right now.

You know, they there's a fishery right now.

I believe it's an area one oh four, a fishery that is targeting.

I believe it's an area one oh four, a fishery that is targeting.

Pink salmon.

Pink salmon.

But by our estimations and by estimations from Alaska fisheries, they are the bycatch for Skina salmon. Skina sakey salmon that are returning to the Skina is about four hundred and seventy thousand. Now, these are sakey that are a bycatch. We're not asking this fishery to stop. We're asking this fishery to be more of a terminus fishery, which means that they better target the pink salmon. So right now they're fishing in open waters approximately half the fleet. From what I understand, we're not asking this fishery to stop. 're asking them to move inside so that skin and sockeye can go past this fishery. And right now we are just barely making our escapement every year that make it up into the headwaters where they can spawn. And so you know there's a lot of different ways we can address the issue of salmon declining in numbers. There's some low hanging fruit, there's a lot of other things that are going to take a lot of time to enforce. I'm hoping as transboundary nations, we can come together to work towards making sure that salmon have a fighting chance. Salmon are very resilient. They are keystone species, and they're a good indicator of the health of the environment and surrounding areas as well as the water.

But by our estimations and by estimations from Alaska fisheries, they are the bycatch for Skina salmon. Skina sakey salmon that are returning to the Skina is about four hundred and seventy thousand. Now, these are sakey that are a bycatch. We're not asking this fishery to stop. We're asking this fishery to be more of a terminus fishery, which means that they better target the pink salmon. So right now they're fishing in open waters approximately half the fleet. From what I understand, we're not asking this fishery to stop. 're asking them to move inside so that skin and sockeye can go past this fishery. And right now we are just barely making our escapement every year that make it up into the headwaters where they can spawn. And so you know there's a lot of different ways we can address the issue of salmon declining in numbers. There's some low hanging fruit, there's a lot of other things that are going to take a lot of time to enforce. I'm hoping as transboundary nations, we can come together to work towards making sure that salmon have a fighting chance. Salmon are very resilient. They are keystone species, and they're a good indicator of the health of the environment and surrounding areas as well as the water.

Yeah, I think that's an excellent summary. Thank you. And preps guy, you have a little bit more experience on the industrial side of thing, I guess can you explain how it is that on the face fit because Louis was saying the tribal nations weren't aware that this mine in one case or these certainly like these other practices, right, some of which are sort of very nebulous, like global warming, others which are specific like this socce bycatch and the forestry with the nations in question here, like the people who's ancestral and current homelands this is happening on not consulted or was there insufficient extpert of the consequences when these with these minds and forestry operations were opened.

Yeah, I think that's an excellent summary. Thank you. And preps guy, you have a little bit more experience on the industrial side of thing, I guess can you explain how it is that on the face fit because Louis was saying the tribal nations weren't aware that this mine in one case or these certainly like these other practices, right, some of which are sort of very nebulous, like global warming, others which are specific like this socce bycatch and the forestry with the nations in question here, like the people who's ancestral and current homelands this is happening on not consulted or was there insufficient extpert of the consequences when these with these minds and forestry operations were opened.

Certainly especially early on, you know, to this day and to this day, the right of free entry, which means somebody could be sitting pretty much anywhere in the world get on the internet and claim a mine claim without any kind of notification to the landowner or surface owner by swiping a credit card. So, uh, there's no even requirement for notification on that. And you know, early on, the mining companies, you know, they do a investor presentation. Here's that they're doing in Las Vegas and New York and this and that, and then they attempt to come into the communities with that presentation. And what they might call meaningful engagement is actually one it's completely one sided. It's not respectful of the process within that tribe or that community, and it's completely tone deaf. And so what engagement, what consultation does happen, is incredibly inadequate. To make matters worse, the South, the Alaskan tribes are landless communities. We don't have jurisdiction over a land area. And great work is being done, though we're not starting from zero here. First nations out on the land through landguardian programs and more doing great work Southeast tribes monitoring, you know, their ecosystems and food security and fish consumption and all that great science and information. But we do need to incorporate one. We need to recognize that we can't manage a complex organism such as a watershed by dividing it down the middle under two different jurisdictions. We have to I don't say move the border, we basically have to erase it, and we need to treat that ecosystem as a whole. Climate change is having a huge impact. The chinook or the king salmon or the spring salmon, they're the largest, so they have the largest egg, they have the less surface area and the environment to absorb oxygen, so they're kind of an indicator of the first you have a problem, you're kind of red flag going up, you know, in your network, complex ecosystem and both Caribbean right, we're right, it's the crash of the entire network that we're seeing. Salmon is just an indicator of that. But we're seeing it across the board and it's unfortunate because here, especially right now in Southeast Alaska. I live in Juno, Alaska, prior to European contact, there was probably five times the population living here than there is now. You look at maps of the old village there everywhere, and they've been there for tens of thousands of years. They managed to do it sustainably, do it with bounce, do it with effective You don't really call it in management, but in engagement with nature. And so here we are kind of on the front lines of it. And strangely enough, we have the solution and people who have within their oral history the stories of migrating due to climate change, of adjusting their life due to climate change. It's in the history or you know, the current oral history. And so when we're looking when we say unify here, there's a great voice and indigenous people too if there is. And it's hard to justify with mining, I'm just going to say, because it's an inherently extractive down to the last profitable dollar industry. It's not sustainable. It's it's reducible constantly as it operates, and now it's being used to justify climate change. Adjusting to climate change is now being used to justify more mining, which again, as usual, is going to fall on the backs of the local people. And communities and indigenous people.

Certainly especially early on, you know, to this day and to this day, the right of free entry, which means somebody could be sitting pretty much anywhere in the world get on the internet and claim a mine claim without any kind of notification to the landowner or surface owner by swiping a credit card. So, uh, there's no even requirement for notification on that. And you know, early on, the mining companies, you know, they do a investor presentation. Here's that they're doing in Las Vegas and New York and this and that, and then they attempt to come into the communities with that presentation. And what they might call meaningful engagement is actually one it's completely one sided. It's not respectful of the process within that tribe or that community, and it's completely tone deaf. And so what engagement, what consultation does happen, is incredibly inadequate. To make matters worse, the South, the Alaskan tribes are landless communities. We don't have jurisdiction over a land area. And great work is being done, though we're not starting from zero here. First nations out on the land through landguardian programs and more doing great work Southeast tribes monitoring, you know, their ecosystems and food security and fish consumption and all that great science and information. But we do need to incorporate one. We need to recognize that we can't manage a complex organism such as a watershed by dividing it down the middle under two different jurisdictions. We have to I don't say move the border, we basically have to erase it, and we need to treat that ecosystem as a whole. Climate change is having a huge impact. The chinook or the king salmon or the spring salmon, they're the largest, so they have the largest egg, they have the less surface area and the environment to absorb oxygen, so they're kind of an indicator of the first you have a problem, you're kind of red flag going up, you know, in your network, complex ecosystem and both Caribbean right, we're right, it's the crash of the entire network that we're seeing. Salmon is just an indicator of that. But we're seeing it across the board and it's unfortunate because here, especially right now in Southeast Alaska. I live in Juno, Alaska, prior to European contact, there was probably five times the population living here than there is now. You look at maps of the old village there everywhere, and they've been there for tens of thousands of years. They managed to do it sustainably, do it with bounce, do it with effective You don't really call it in management, but in engagement with nature. And so here we are kind of on the front lines of it. And strangely enough, we have the solution and people who have within their oral history the stories of migrating due to climate change, of adjusting their life due to climate change. It's in the history or you know, the current oral history. And so when we're looking when we say unify here, there's a great voice and indigenous people too if there is. And it's hard to justify with mining, I'm just going to say, because it's an inherently extractive down to the last profitable dollar industry. It's not sustainable. It's it's reducible constantly as it operates, and now it's being used to justify climate change. Adjusting to climate change is now being used to justify more mining, which again, as usual, is going to fall on the backs of the local people. And communities and indigenous people.

Yeah, it's shocking. Similar to issues that we see where I live, which is at the other end of the United States and on the southern border, where the Colorado River is a binational river, right, which is managed by two countries kind of in aggressive competition. And we're seeing the same thing here, just a different states. Yes, yeah, different states, yes, yeah, and all of them have competing I was rafting the Colorado River last year, and I've paddled the Colorado River. But they change in that river ecosystem that I've seen, and I've only lived in the US for fifteen years. It's remarkable and I can't imagine what it's like over seventy five years. And the same thing with mining. Actually we're seeing the justification of very damaging lithium mining rights and then being told that this is a solution to climate change and whilst also destroying these ecosystems. If people think it's just an issue that affects one group of people in one group of the part of the world, it's not. It's very universal. And that's just in the United States. We see the same thing places I've traveled for work in East Africa and in South America. I wonder then if we could talk about the value of accepting indigenous leadership when it comes to addressing I think we began addressing that and guys come up very well. But perhaps one thing we could talk about when we talk about that is I think when people think about specifically British Columbia and Alaska, they the people will use the term like frontier or wilderness a lot, right, which erases the fact that, as Guy mentioned and both of you have shared with us, that people have been living there for tens of thousands of years in a way that was sustainable, right, Like, these weren't places without human beings. It wasn't empty land, and it was just land that wasn't inhabited by people of European ancestry. And so when we talk about how to go forward with this land, why it's important to listen to the people who have always been there, It said, a good framework.

Yeah, it's shocking. Similar to issues that we see where I live, which is at the other end of the United States and on the southern border, where the Colorado River is a binational river, right, which is managed by two countries kind of in aggressive competition. And we're seeing the same thing here, just a different states. Yes, yeah, different states, yes, yeah, and all of them have competing I was rafting the Colorado River last year, and I've paddled the Colorado River. But they change in that river ecosystem that I've seen, and I've only lived in the US for fifteen years. It's remarkable and I can't imagine what it's like over seventy five years. And the same thing with mining. Actually we're seeing the justification of very damaging lithium mining rights and then being told that this is a solution to climate change and whilst also destroying these ecosystems. If people think it's just an issue that affects one group of people in one group of the part of the world, it's not. It's very universal. And that's just in the United States. We see the same thing places I've traveled for work in East Africa and in South America. I wonder then if we could talk about the value of accepting indigenous leadership when it comes to addressing I think we began addressing that and guys come up very well. But perhaps one thing we could talk about when we talk about that is I think when people think about specifically British Columbia and Alaska, they the people will use the term like frontier or wilderness a lot, right, which erases the fact that, as Guy mentioned and both of you have shared with us, that people have been living there for tens of thousands of years in a way that was sustainable, right, Like, these weren't places without human beings. It wasn't empty land, and it was just land that wasn't inhabited by people of European ancestry. And so when we talk about how to go forward with this land, why it's important to listen to the people who have always been there, It said, a good framework.

All we have is our stories and how we grew up with the old folks, and we're lucky to have a rowboat and pair oars. Back in back in the fifties, still late fifties, some of the people started being able to get a little three horse Johnson something like that, and that was a lot of power. But we also the glaciers have melted away up on the Unich River there, so that really affects affecting the amount of water flowing. The level of the water very important to a lot of us yet to live live the way of life that we've always lived. Yeah, all the testimony that I have done as not serious because I don't have a college education like that. It's just that's that's what they want. I mean, the people they learn it from school books now, but they've never lived a life and been on all these different areas the beaches, you know, and we have all our seasons. Every season you have something to look forward to it right after I'll start with the spring on the Ooligans and and then seaweed and King salmone is a big big thing to go after. And then we have you know, the summer and then then to fall. Yeah. Also we have the greens called asparagus. While asparagus or or harvesting all the time we our our children that we've we have they all know how to do it where to go. So we've been continued doing in our teaching on our our side we're just they don't want to take us serious, I guess anyway. So I've been, you know, been do a lot of meetings and talked about a lot of the stuff here, and it's just it's going to be a shame if we just keep losing everything. We're getting very close salmon and I are getting a lot less and commercial fishing in my whole life. And then later as the kids got older, we went into tenderings. We just had family aboard, and you know, we would get loads after loads through the seventies into the eighties, in nineties, and then pretty soon you could see the Sainters are coming in with less and less fish and just Ulligan alone. And been fifteen years up there for the Oligan in the spring and get out of school for a little while and to go up the river ours from metal like Catalan, Alaska to up to the Unique River a little over one hundred miles, so we have a two hundred mile round trip to get up there and back, and there's no safe harbor there. It's wide open to the weather. So you have to really best to learn from somebody who's been up there a few times, and you know they know where you can maybe duck out of for a safe spot and easy to get hurt on the river because they're so shallow. Yeah, we lost the fifteen years on the river, that's what it was, due to weak runs and they disappeared for a while. They were going up to other streams to get clean water, even on like I'll reveal a good gato on Ketchgan Island. They went up there one year and there was a really good run. But then they'll go through Beam Canal and the other streams when they have to. Oligan are pretty smart. They don't have to go back to the same river all the time. We'd have to go through the canal and check the other places where they might go up. But with the salmon, they need that clean river because they won't go up any other river. And their numbers really really have dropped. Used to see king salmon, you know, probably as far as I could reach, which is about six feet and spawners in the river, and three years ago they were maybe long as one arm. I couldn't find any real big ones in there. But it was good to see some of them coming back. But that won't last longer. Things continue to go their way.

All we have is our stories and how we grew up with the old folks, and we're lucky to have a rowboat and pair oars. Back in back in the fifties, still late fifties, some of the people started being able to get a little three horse Johnson something like that, and that was a lot of power. But we also the glaciers have melted away up on the Unich River there, so that really affects affecting the amount of water flowing. The level of the water very important to a lot of us yet to live live the way of life that we've always lived. Yeah, all the testimony that I have done as not serious because I don't have a college education like that. It's just that's that's what they want. I mean, the people they learn it from school books now, but they've never lived a life and been on all these different areas the beaches, you know, and we have all our seasons. Every season you have something to look forward to it right after I'll start with the spring on the Ooligans and and then seaweed and King salmone is a big big thing to go after. And then we have you know, the summer and then then to fall. Yeah. Also we have the greens called asparagus. While asparagus or or harvesting all the time we our our children that we've we have they all know how to do it where to go. So we've been continued doing in our teaching on our our side we're just they don't want to take us serious, I guess anyway. So I've been, you know, been do a lot of meetings and talked about a lot of the stuff here, and it's just it's going to be a shame if we just keep losing everything. We're getting very close salmon and I are getting a lot less and commercial fishing in my whole life. And then later as the kids got older, we went into tenderings. We just had family aboard, and you know, we would get loads after loads through the seventies into the eighties, in nineties, and then pretty soon you could see the Sainters are coming in with less and less fish and just Ulligan alone. And been fifteen years up there for the Oligan in the spring and get out of school for a little while and to go up the river ours from metal like Catalan, Alaska to up to the Unique River a little over one hundred miles, so we have a two hundred mile round trip to get up there and back, and there's no safe harbor there. It's wide open to the weather. So you have to really best to learn from somebody who's been up there a few times, and you know they know where you can maybe duck out of for a safe spot and easy to get hurt on the river because they're so shallow. Yeah, we lost the fifteen years on the river, that's what it was, due to weak runs and they disappeared for a while. They were going up to other streams to get clean water, even on like I'll reveal a good gato on Ketchgan Island. They went up there one year and there was a really good run. But then they'll go through Beam Canal and the other streams when they have to. Oligan are pretty smart. They don't have to go back to the same river all the time. We'd have to go through the canal and check the other places where they might go up. But with the salmon, they need that clean river because they won't go up any other river. And their numbers really really have dropped. Used to see king salmon, you know, probably as far as I could reach, which is about six feet and spawners in the river, and three years ago they were maybe long as one arm. I couldn't find any real big ones in there. But it was good to see some of them coming back. But that won't last longer. Things continue to go their way.

They are Yeah, it's very sad to hear it like this. Yeah, this these changes you've seen, I suppose so preps you could explain to us, like this emergency declaration that's been made, right, and we've heard Louis explained very eloquently how I had this, how he's seen this decay over his life, and how can like accepting this leadership right, there's this emergency that that's been declared. I guess, like it is it possible? You said Simon were very resilient, and Tod the Oarligan were very smart. Can things return to the way they work? Can we at least stop things getting worse?

They are Yeah, it's very sad to hear it like this. Yeah, this these changes you've seen, I suppose so preps you could explain to us, like this emergency declaration that's been made, right, and we've heard Louis explained very eloquently how I had this, how he's seen this decay over his life, and how can like accepting this leadership right, there's this emergency that that's been declared. I guess, like it is it possible? You said Simon were very resilient, and Tod the Oarligan were very smart. Can things return to the way they work? Can we at least stop things getting worse?

And how Yeah?

And how Yeah?

You know, I think our relationship with the environment is broken. I'm a communications specialist, That's that's what I do. So I am all about relationships. Now when I talk about relationships, I'm just I'm not talking just about relationships with our fellow human beings, but I'm talking about relationships with.

You know, I think our relationship with the environment is broken. I'm a communications specialist, That's that's what I do. So I am all about relationships. Now when I talk about relationships, I'm just I'm not talking just about relationships with our fellow human beings, but I'm talking about relationships with.

The land, the water, the air. And I like.

The land, the water, the air. And I like.

To for people. I always tell people, you know, when you're in a relationship with a significant other or or a pet. You know a lot of people have pets. It's it's a reciprocal relationship. There's a lot of give and take, and and there's a lot of compromise.

To for people. I always tell people, you know, when you're in a relationship with a significant other or or a pet. You know a lot of people have pets. It's it's a reciprocal relationship. There's a lot of give and take, and and there's a lot of compromise.

And as as.

And as as.

A young boy and growing up in in Gigxan Territory and in Jimsand Territory, I was always taught that you only took what you needed, and you didn't you didn't take anymore, and you respected all living things. You know, I don't mean to pick on anybody, but sport fishing is against our laws. You know, we don't play with fish. It's it's it's just something we do not do. And and when I'm talking about our relationship with with all living things, uh, you know, the land, the water, the swimmers, the two leg at, the four lang, the ones fly, our relationship with them is broken.

A young boy and growing up in in Gigxan Territory and in Jimsand Territory, I was always taught that you only took what you needed, and you didn't you didn't take anymore, and you respected all living things. You know, I don't mean to pick on anybody, but sport fishing is against our laws. You know, we don't play with fish. It's it's it's just something we do not do. And and when I'm talking about our relationship with with all living things, uh, you know, the land, the water, the swimmers, the two leg at, the four lang, the ones fly, our relationship with them is broken.

You know, we used to harvest a lot more than we do now.

You know, we used to harvest a lot more than we do now.

You know, in the skin of watershed, you know, we used to harvest seals. We used to harvest you know, a lot more things other than just salmon. And what we've done over the last fifty or so years has put so much pressure on salmon that they just can't sustain it.

You know, in the skin of watershed, you know, we used to harvest seals. We used to harvest you know, a lot more things other than just salmon. And what we've done over the last fifty or so years has put so much pressure on salmon that they just can't sustain it.

You know.

You know.

You know, I might not be very popular for saying this, but you know, we used to eat a lot more seals, and I think we should commercialize a seal hunt and sell those products so that people can make money and people can be fed. I'm not blaming the seals for the decline in salmon. There's a lot of factors at play when it comes to the decline in salmon. But what I'm trying to explain is that our relationship with the environment is broken and we need to fix it, and it's out of balance right now, and we need to bring it back to balance, and we just need to consume less.

You know, I might not be very popular for saying this, but you know, we used to eat a lot more seals, and I think we should commercialize a seal hunt and sell those products so that people can make money and people can be fed. I'm not blaming the seals for the decline in salmon. There's a lot of factors at play when it comes to the decline in salmon. But what I'm trying to explain is that our relationship with the environment is broken and we need to fix it, and it's out of balance right now, and we need to bring it back to balance, and we just need to consume less.

Certainly. Yeah, and does that I'm curious that that sort of like heavy emphasis on salmon is that because it was very commercial, so people would be able to harvest just as salmon and sell it as opposed to harvesting these other animals that they were harvesting before.

Certainly. Yeah, and does that I'm curious that that sort of like heavy emphasis on salmon is that because it was very commercial, so people would be able to harvest just as salmon and sell it as opposed to harvesting these other animals that they were harvesting before.

I think I think salmon were very plentiful, right.

I think I think salmon were very plentiful, right.

You know, you hear stories about when when the Europeans first arrived, you know, they could I've heard stories of them, you know, putting a bucket into the water and pulling the bucket out and it would be just full of salmon.

You know, you hear stories about when when the Europeans first arrived, you know, they could I've heard stories of them, you know, putting a bucket into the water and pulling the bucket out and it would be just full of salmon.

Right, So I thought I think.

Right, So I thought I think.

That you know, there there was a mentality that you know, the resource was infinite, right, it would last forever.

That you know, there there was a mentality that you know, the resource was infinite, right, it would last forever.

I think that was the mentality.

I think that was the mentality.

And so they just harvested it, harvested as much as they could, as fast as they could, and centered around the world.

And so they just harvested it, harvested as much as they could, as fast as they could, and centered around the world.

And you know, if any of your.

And you know, if any of your.

Listeners haven't tasted salmon, it's it's one of the most flavorful things you've ever you will ever taste. And it's it's the best meat in the world on the planet for you in terms of nutrients and and such. And you know, it's it's totally natural, and yeah, it's just all around good for the environment.

Listeners haven't tasted salmon, it's it's one of the most flavorful things you've ever you will ever taste. And it's it's the best meat in the world on the planet for you in terms of nutrients and and such. And you know, it's it's totally natural, and yeah, it's just all around good for the environment.

You know.

You know.

It feeds the birds, the two legs, the four legs. It even feeds plants, you know, and it's it's so resilient. And we just need to give salmon a chance and figure out a way forward where we can have a reciprocal relationship with salmon and the environment.

It feeds the birds, the two legs, the four legs. It even feeds plants, you know, and it's it's so resilient. And we just need to give salmon a chance and figure out a way forward where we can have a reciprocal relationship with salmon and the environment.

Yeah, and preps, like are their concrete steps? Like a lot of our listeners are not in the areas where you are, but they could be all over the world, right, But are there things they could do to show solidarity, to give you support? How can they help?

Yeah, and preps, like are their concrete steps? Like a lot of our listeners are not in the areas where you are, but they could be all over the world, right, But are there things they could do to show solidarity, to give you support? How can they help?

Well, I would encourage encourage everybody to you know, visit our website and and kind of understand what we see as a pathway forward for remedying this. You know, it's it's you shouldn't come to the table to complain about a problem unless you have a remedy proposed here and and that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to take that knowledge that it is in you know, Louis and just in the Unich and the knowledge in every little stream, even the knowledge within the genetics, that fine grain of every salmon that goes up every little stream, and get that incorporated into you know, the uh, you know, into an engagement process that ultimately, the way we've been doing it is a failed experiment. We can call that now because these methods we put in to try to protect wild salmon, we've seen nothing wild salmon decline. You asked if salmon are resilient. They very much are. They very much are resilient. There's reason there's five species of salmon here is because of all the upheaval, seismic upheaval living on the Pacific rim. They're very resilient to the occasional large impact. Just like you and me, though, were very unresilient to constant pressure and stress. You know what it does to your digestive system, nervous system, everything, your family life. It's the same for these ecosystems. It's not the occasional huge impact, it's the continuous stress. And this area was not it's not really pristine. It was highly modified by the people. They inactively engaged with their environment. They enhanced salmon streams and resting pools, They built clam gardens, they move trees and vegetation around, you know, enhanced beaches, and it was very active. And we can incorporate that knowledge into how we move forward on a lot of these things, and we need to do that.

Well, I would encourage encourage everybody to you know, visit our website and and kind of understand what we see as a pathway forward for remedying this. You know, it's it's you shouldn't come to the table to complain about a problem unless you have a remedy proposed here and and that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to take that knowledge that it is in you know, Louis and just in the Unich and the knowledge in every little stream, even the knowledge within the genetics, that fine grain of every salmon that goes up every little stream, and get that incorporated into you know, the uh, you know, into an engagement process that ultimately, the way we've been doing it is a failed experiment. We can call that now because these methods we put in to try to protect wild salmon, we've seen nothing wild salmon decline. You asked if salmon are resilient. They very much are. They very much are resilient. There's reason there's five species of salmon here is because of all the upheaval, seismic upheaval living on the Pacific rim. They're very resilient to the occasional large impact. Just like you and me, though, were very unresilient to constant pressure and stress. You know what it does to your digestive system, nervous system, everything, your family life. It's the same for these ecosystems. It's not the occasional huge impact, it's the continuous stress. And this area was not it's not really pristine. It was highly modified by the people. They inactively engaged with their environment. They enhanced salmon streams and resting pools, They built clam gardens, they move trees and vegetation around, you know, enhanced beaches, and it was very active. And we can incorporate that knowledge into how we move forward on a lot of these things, and we need to do that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, when people ask me what they can do, I respond by saying, what you can do is change your habits. Now, a lot of people think that this climate change problem, resource extraction, et cetera is too big for us to tackle, but.

Well, when people ask me what they can do, I respond by saying, what you can do is change your habits. Now, a lot of people think that this climate change problem, resource extraction, et cetera is too big for us to tackle, but.

Actually it's not.

Actually it's not.

You know, if we all do a little bit and just change our habits, we can make huge change.

You know, if we all do a little bit and just change our habits, we can make huge change.

You know, I always think.

You know, I always think.

About you know, in British Columbia and in Canada, gosh about you know, forty years ago they brought in a law stating that everybody had to wear seat belts. There was huge backlash. Nobody wanted to wear a seat belt. They weren't used to it, right, But after a while, you know, nobody, nobody even bothered to complain about it. We just do it whenever I get into my vehicle. Now it's second nature to put my seat belt on. I don't even think about it. It's done. Now, if we can all just look at some of the habits that we have, whether it's you know, using too much water, maybe some wasteful practices, you know, driving when we don't need to drive. Maybe maybe we can walk a little more often, and maybe we can bike a little more often.

About you know, in British Columbia and in Canada, gosh about you know, forty years ago they brought in a law stating that everybody had to wear seat belts. There was huge backlash. Nobody wanted to wear a seat belt. They weren't used to it, right, But after a while, you know, nobody, nobody even bothered to complain about it. We just do it whenever I get into my vehicle. Now it's second nature to put my seat belt on. I don't even think about it. It's done. Now, if we can all just look at some of the habits that we have, whether it's you know, using too much water, maybe some wasteful practices, you know, driving when we don't need to drive. Maybe maybe we can walk a little more often, and maybe we can bike a little more often.

Just really look at what.

Just really look at what.

Actions you're taking daily that may be contributing to climate change and global warming, and try to change one habit. And when you've got that habit, change change another one. And you know, I think over time we can we can fix this. But it's going to take a concerned effort by everybody on this planet, and more so by some of us who are a little more privileged I guess, to be able to change our habits.

Actions you're taking daily that may be contributing to climate change and global warming, and try to change one habit. And when you've got that habit, change change another one. And you know, I think over time we can we can fix this. But it's going to take a concerned effort by everybody on this planet, and more so by some of us who are a little more privileged I guess, to be able to change our habits.

Thanks, yeah, I think that was very very well said. And do you have anything to add Louis.

Thanks, yeah, I think that was very very well said. And do you have anything to add Louis.

Yeah, I appreciate what Kirby said earlier on. We're connected to the land h and everybody's grandmother was your grandmother when I was growing up. As long as you were, you know, you paid attention and you would help. I remember when in the fish camp, grandmother brought my friend and myself into the smokehouse and they had they had a fish that was just put in, the salmon that was in the middle, and the finished salmon that was ready to come out on the end. And you know, they would only tell you once. They said, you can eat all you want, but if you waste one piece, you were never welcomed in the smokehouses again. So they didn't waste time. And they told it would tell the children when they get too loud, your children are to be seen but not heard, And just like that, they never stopped teaching. It was I wish I could remember more from a long time ago, but I was lucky that they treated. You know, whatever friend I had there, their grandparents were were mine that just learned how to get bark off the cedar tree, and so you don't kill the cedar tree. From my friend's grandmother. I never forgotten when my wife wanted to go out and get get some.

Yeah, I appreciate what Kirby said earlier on. We're connected to the land h and everybody's grandmother was your grandmother when I was growing up. As long as you were, you know, you paid attention and you would help. I remember when in the fish camp, grandmother brought my friend and myself into the smokehouse and they had they had a fish that was just put in, the salmon that was in the middle, and the finished salmon that was ready to come out on the end. And you know, they would only tell you once. They said, you can eat all you want, but if you waste one piece, you were never welcomed in the smokehouses again. So they didn't waste time. And they told it would tell the children when they get too loud, your children are to be seen but not heard, And just like that, they never stopped teaching. It was I wish I could remember more from a long time ago, but I was lucky that they treated. You know, whatever friend I had there, their grandparents were were mine that just learned how to get bark off the cedar tree, and so you don't kill the cedar tree. From my friend's grandmother. I never forgotten when my wife wanted to go out and get get some.

Bark.

Bark.

She was surprised. I told her I know how to do it, and so we would. We went out and got it. Just things like that, is were just trying not to leave a footprint when when we left, or insights there any camp areas. Oh, I just wanted to add that, thank.

She was surprised. I told her I know how to do it, and so we would. We went out and got it. Just things like that, is were just trying not to leave a footprint when when we left, or insights there any camp areas. Oh, I just wanted to add that, thank.

You, thank you.

You, thank you.

It's very insightful. So talking of leaving a footprint, I think preaps. The last thing I want to talk about is mind tailings and and the way that because of some of these minds. So there are some I guess minds that people want to build, and there's some minds of people have already built. Right about I was reading on your website about tailing dam and what that is and what that does and what that might mean for protecting the ecosystem. So can you explain what a tailing stam is and what a tailing stamp failure is?

It's very insightful. So talking of leaving a footprint, I think preaps. The last thing I want to talk about is mind tailings and and the way that because of some of these minds. So there are some I guess minds that people want to build, and there's some minds of people have already built. Right about I was reading on your website about tailing dam and what that is and what that does and what that might mean for protecting the ecosystem. So can you explain what a tailing stam is and what a tailing stamp failure is?

Just what I learned a little bit on a meeting up in Anchorage on the form on the Alaska Environment, and they had scientists there that we're speaking and this is a few years ago now, and they talked about every mind that's in place is poisoning the rivers to this state, and it will always poison because it doesn't stop bleeding out of there wherever they were mining. That was very interesting, and they had just started to do some water sampling and we were trying to do that, and this year we were finally able to do something with that. We got to start with this guy there and looking forward to get water samples come fall at moose hunting time and we'll have to see how many he would like to have this time. I just know, no, it's not good. It's poisonous. The water used to be that beautiful bluish glacier water coming down through the river there and not seeing that anymore. So I want to get first water for coffee. I'll go to the side mountain where I know it's clean and come and coming off the mountain. Things like that we have to watch out.

Just what I learned a little bit on a meeting up in Anchorage on the form on the Alaska Environment, and they had scientists there that we're speaking and this is a few years ago now, and they talked about every mind that's in place is poisoning the rivers to this state, and it will always poison because it doesn't stop bleeding out of there wherever they were mining. That was very interesting, and they had just started to do some water sampling and we were trying to do that, and this year we were finally able to do something with that. We got to start with this guy there and looking forward to get water samples come fall at moose hunting time and we'll have to see how many he would like to have this time. I just know, no, it's not good. It's poisonous. The water used to be that beautiful bluish glacier water coming down through the river there and not seeing that anymore. So I want to get first water for coffee. I'll go to the side mountain where I know it's clean and come and coming off the mountain. Things like that we have to watch out.

For, you know, specifically to a tailings damn. That's just the containment structure for a tailings dump. They may collumns tailings disposal facilities or storage facilities, but they're never coming back for them. It's it's a dump. It's permitted, just as any municipal landfill would be British Columbia tends to use what they call some aqueous tailings disposable. They need to keep oxygen from the tailings because otherwise they're going to oxidize, They're going to create acid mind drainage, dissolve all of these heavy metals into the salmon streams and basically a large risk, a large threat. We live in a rainforest, so that water bounce is very critical and it's almost impossible to do in a time of climate change. They're wanting to maintain three meters of water on top of these tailings in perpetituity. I mean, at what point in perpetituity does any certainty of your predictions completely break down? And they require massive amounts of water treatment. And it's not just the tailings, it's the waste rock, and in Louis's Unich River it's not just the Bruce Jack. But now they're permitting the Escape Creek an open pit, and already permitted but not yet built, is the KSM, which would be one of the top five largest open pits in the world on a small water shed with incredibly low hardness of water, meaning it cannot absorb any kind of change of pH or acid and is home to, you know, the spawning and rearing grounds and genetic diversity of Pacific salmon. And in the long run, the only way we're going to keep salmon from extinction as well, as Kirby says, kind of help, you know, change our attitude with this world. But we have to maintain that genetic diversity that's spawn in all of those little tiny streams throughout the coast and far into British Columbia. We need that genetic diversity. Salmon are incredibly resilient, but we also can't you know, completely ignore our part and disrupt the natural cycles here, and as they pointed out, they are incredibly disruptive. I did you want to say that, you know, Louis mentioned how they're not listening. He's not listened to, and that story can be multiplied in every community and tribe throughout the Pacific Northwest and probably the entire United States about the world. But that's what we're trying to remedy here, trying to let's all get together. Let's ignore that border. We find out in these meetings like our summit, that were actually related, some of us were related to one another, and look at this in the big picture, holistic way. You have to look at big things like climate change and natural ecosystems and complex mining that just gets bigger and bigger just due to economy of scale. They mine the good stuff a long time ago. They took the chocolate chips out of the chop go cheb guckie. Now they're going after the baking soda, and that creates exponential moral waste.

For, you know, specifically to a tailings damn. That's just the containment structure for a tailings dump. They may collumns tailings disposal facilities or storage facilities, but they're never coming back for them. It's it's a dump. It's permitted, just as any municipal landfill would be British Columbia tends to use what they call some aqueous tailings disposable. They need to keep oxygen from the tailings because otherwise they're going to oxidize, They're going to create acid mind drainage, dissolve all of these heavy metals into the salmon streams and basically a large risk, a large threat. We live in a rainforest, so that water bounce is very critical and it's almost impossible to do in a time of climate change. They're wanting to maintain three meters of water on top of these tailings in perpetituity. I mean, at what point in perpetituity does any certainty of your predictions completely break down? And they require massive amounts of water treatment. And it's not just the tailings, it's the waste rock, and in Louis's Unich River it's not just the Bruce Jack. But now they're permitting the Escape Creek an open pit, and already permitted but not yet built, is the KSM, which would be one of the top five largest open pits in the world on a small water shed with incredibly low hardness of water, meaning it cannot absorb any kind of change of pH or acid and is home to, you know, the spawning and rearing grounds and genetic diversity of Pacific salmon. And in the long run, the only way we're going to keep salmon from extinction as well, as Kirby says, kind of help, you know, change our attitude with this world. But we have to maintain that genetic diversity that's spawn in all of those little tiny streams throughout the coast and far into British Columbia. We need that genetic diversity. Salmon are incredibly resilient, but we also can't you know, completely ignore our part and disrupt the natural cycles here, and as they pointed out, they are incredibly disruptive. I did you want to say that, you know, Louis mentioned how they're not listening. He's not listened to, and that story can be multiplied in every community and tribe throughout the Pacific Northwest and probably the entire United States about the world. But that's what we're trying to remedy here, trying to let's all get together. Let's ignore that border. We find out in these meetings like our summit, that were actually related, some of us were related to one another, and look at this in the big picture, holistic way. You have to look at big things like climate change and natural ecosystems and complex mining that just gets bigger and bigger just due to economy of scale. They mine the good stuff a long time ago. They took the chocolate chips out of the chop go cheb guckie. Now they're going after the baking soda, and that creates exponential moral waste.

Right yeah, because there's less of the stuff they're looking for and more of the waste.

Right yeah, because there's less of the stuff they're looking for and more of the waste.

Wow.

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've certainly spent some time around some abandoned mines in Alaska, and it's it's wild to see this massive intrusion and then abandonment and just sort of complete sort of obligation of the responsibility for the damage that it's done.

I've certainly spent some time around some abandoned mines in Alaska, and it's it's wild to see this massive intrusion and then abandonment and just sort of complete sort of obligation of the responsibility for the damage that it's done.

I look at the climax lived of a mine in Leadville, Colorado. It's a good example.

I look at the climax lived of a mine in Leadville, Colorado. It's a good example.

Been there too, Yeah, maybe you've seen that. I've raced my bike up there a couple of times.

Been there too, Yeah, maybe you've seen that. I've raced my bike up there a couple of times.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It has to work there, Oh well okay, yeah, yeah, Wow, that is a and the impact that it's had on that town of the mining, it's all it's a process that hurts almost everyone above from the people who owned mining companies right, like, it doesn't benefit as many as many people as it in the long run, it hurts.

It has to work there, Oh well okay, yeah, yeah, Wow, that is a and the impact that it's had on that town of the mining, it's all it's a process that hurts almost everyone above from the people who owned mining companies right, like, it doesn't benefit as many as many people as it in the long run, it hurts.

I think you're going towards benefits, and there there should be equitable benefits. But the benefit, the first cut of the pie is the environment itself. They have. It not only has to just be maintained and sustained, it has to actually benefit at this point if we're going to avoid large scale collapse and uh. But there's ways of doing that, and part of that is giving Indigenous people a strong save consent the new laws. You know, Canada ratified the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People. BC has implemented that through the Declaration on the Rights of People's Act. They're supposed to respect, you know, these traditional territories. Regardless of the land status of Alaska tribes, they certainly have an obligation to respect the First Nations and the unseeded territories of the First Nation people in British Columbia, that's clear by law, and the Supreme Courts have expanded it to people that no longer live in Alaska if they still have that direct connection to their traditional territories within I'm sorry British Columbia. And so we're going to use that to make sure that Louis and everybody is heard and get that knowledge as part of and not just the knowledge, but the act of participation. That's part of the benefit sharing if indeed anything happens. But at this point, we just need so much more restoration before we damage it further, quite.

I think you're going towards benefits, and there there should be equitable benefits. But the benefit, the first cut of the pie is the environment itself. They have. It not only has to just be maintained and sustained, it has to actually benefit at this point if we're going to avoid large scale collapse and uh. But there's ways of doing that, and part of that is giving Indigenous people a strong save consent the new laws. You know, Canada ratified the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People. BC has implemented that through the Declaration on the Rights of People's Act. They're supposed to respect, you know, these traditional territories. Regardless of the land status of Alaska tribes, they certainly have an obligation to respect the First Nations and the unseeded territories of the First Nation people in British Columbia, that's clear by law, and the Supreme Courts have expanded it to people that no longer live in Alaska if they still have that direct connection to their traditional territories within I'm sorry British Columbia. And so we're going to use that to make sure that Louis and everybody is heard and get that knowledge as part of and not just the knowledge, but the act of participation. That's part of the benefit sharing if indeed anything happens. But at this point, we just need so much more restoration before we damage it further, quite.

Right, Yeah, of course, So you spoke about this large open pit mind and it's something people can do if they want to. I'm guessing it would be optimal for them not to open another massive open pit mind. It is something people could do to help maybe make that a process that, you know, where Indigenous people listen to and not just mining interests.

Right, Yeah, of course, So you spoke about this large open pit mind and it's something people can do if they want to. I'm guessing it would be optimal for them not to open another massive open pit mind. It is something people could do to help maybe make that a process that, you know, where Indigenous people listen to and not just mining interests.

This indeed is for me and I'll be quit I think, you know, unfortunately, the engaging with the process, with the recognition that the process is broken, but engaging it to the maximum extent you can to try to get your word out there and influence decision makers. You got to at least do that. Yeah, I'm sure Herbie has stood the lines out there in British Columbia. I'm sure you can speak to it.

This indeed is for me and I'll be quit I think, you know, unfortunately, the engaging with the process, with the recognition that the process is broken, but engaging it to the maximum extent you can to try to get your word out there and influence decision makers. You got to at least do that. Yeah, I'm sure Herbie has stood the lines out there in British Columbia. I'm sure you can speak to it.

Please do Yeah, you know, if you're if you or your listeners haven't heard of the term indigenous science. I would like to introduce that indigenous science is a distinct, time tested and methodological knowledge system that can enhance and complement Western science. Now I've introduced this many times. It's by no means did I invent this at all, but I've been introduced to it about a year ago and I've been using it a lot.

Please do Yeah, you know, if you're if you or your listeners haven't heard of the term indigenous science. I would like to introduce that indigenous science is a distinct, time tested and methodological knowledge system that can enhance and complement Western science. Now I've introduced this many times. It's by no means did I invent this at all, but I've been introduced to it about a year ago and I've been using it a lot.

Now.

Now.

In many instances, indigenous science is thousands of years old, whereas Western science. In some areas such as British Columbia, Canada, where we've only you know, been in contact with European settlers for just over five hundred years, Indigenous science is much much older. It's as I said earlier, it's it's time tested and the knowledge is immense. And you know that alone should give a lot of credence to to the knowledge and the science of indigenous peoples.

In many instances, indigenous science is thousands of years old, whereas Western science. In some areas such as British Columbia, Canada, where we've only you know, been in contact with European settlers for just over five hundred years, Indigenous science is much much older. It's as I said earlier, it's it's time tested and the knowledge is immense. And you know that alone should give a lot of credence to to the knowledge and the science of indigenous peoples.

Yeah, I think that's an excellent consideration. And we had an episode this week at you we spoke about indigenous medical technologies, and I think it's important to recognize these things are on a par with like European Western technology medical technologies right as opposed to be different from, but have them on the same level, and the same with the science that you make Sued. I think that's an excellent point too.

Yeah, I think that's an excellent consideration. And we had an episode this week at you we spoke about indigenous medical technologies, and I think it's important to recognize these things are on a par with like European Western technology medical technologies right as opposed to be different from, but have them on the same level, and the same with the science that you make Sued. I think that's an excellent point too.

I have to chime in because I had that point of view. Sometimes I have to laugh because what is at least sixty five percent of all pharmaceuticals are derived from natural plants that the indigenous people and full knowledge for a long time that information wasn't necessarily transferred in the nicest manner often, so I need to acknowledge that.

I have to chime in because I had that point of view. Sometimes I have to laugh because what is at least sixty five percent of all pharmaceuticals are derived from natural plants that the indigenous people and full knowledge for a long time that information wasn't necessarily transferred in the nicest manner often, so I need to acknowledge that.

Yeah, yeah, every time we take an aspirin, we're benefiting from indigenous science, right, Indigenous medical technologies.

Yeah, yeah, every time we take an aspirin, we're benefiting from indigenous science, right, Indigenous medical technologies.

Yeah, and those technologies are incredible. A helibate hook is just a prime example. It's it's an incredible study in the morphology of the mouth of a helibate, the habits of a helibate, and they can design the hook to target very specifically the size of the helibate, so they're not getting the big breeders and this and that, and just the amount of observation, adjustment engineering that goes into a helibut because in itself very credible. The Western people when they moved in on the at least here on the coast, they looked at the way the clink at height and Shimshei and people were harvesting fish with beach traps and beach nets and whatnot, and they copied that fish wheels and they copied that technology, but then they took it to the massive extreme and just took everything out of the rivers. But they used indigenous technology to do it, ironically enough, so we can turn that around, you know, we can use that technology to turn this around. And there's no reason why we shouldn't.

Yeah, and those technologies are incredible. A helibate hook is just a prime example. It's it's an incredible study in the morphology of the mouth of a helibate, the habits of a helibate, and they can design the hook to target very specifically the size of the helibate, so they're not getting the big breeders and this and that, and just the amount of observation, adjustment engineering that goes into a helibut because in itself very credible. The Western people when they moved in on the at least here on the coast, they looked at the way the clink at height and Shimshei and people were harvesting fish with beach traps and beach nets and whatnot, and they copied that fish wheels and they copied that technology, but then they took it to the massive extreme and just took everything out of the rivers. But they used indigenous technology to do it, ironically enough, so we can turn that around, you know, we can use that technology to turn this around. And there's no reason why we shouldn't.

Point.

Point.

Is there anything you each would like to leave our listeners with, maybe a place they can find you online, a way they can show support and something like that.

Is there anything you each would like to leave our listeners with, maybe a place they can find you online, a way they can show support and something like that.

A little bit that I didn't mention those. I'm also I'm Simpson and Clinkett my grandfather and great grandfather. It came from Hartley Bay when Mettle Catla was built by them and eighteen eighty seven, I believe and their boat builders that they sold their rowboats up and down the coast. But yeah, I couldn't spend enough time with my grandfather. He was going to just you never stopped learning from all of our elders. I just wanted to throw that in there.

A little bit that I didn't mention those. I'm also I'm Simpson and Clinkett my grandfather and great grandfather. It came from Hartley Bay when Mettle Catla was built by them and eighteen eighty seven, I believe and their boat builders that they sold their rowboats up and down the coast. But yeah, I couldn't spend enough time with my grandfather. He was going to just you never stopped learning from all of our elders. I just wanted to throw that in there.

Thank you, Thank you so much. How about you, Kevy, anything you'd like to leave people with I just.

Thank you, Thank you so much. How about you, Kevy, anything you'd like to leave people with I just.

Wanted to leave people with this thought. You know, as I said earlier, look at the habit that you can change. That are the low hanging fruit. And I'd also like them to, you know, think about how they can change. Think about holding your elected officials accountable. I'm not sure what it's like where you're from, but you know, a lot of our elected officials they like to talk, but they don't like to do anything. So actions speak louder than words. Hold your elected officials accountable every time you see them, ask them what they're doing about.