It's been a little while since we spoke about in type, so let's correct that and speak to one of the directors of police. Sarah, good to speak to you again.

It's been a little while since we spoke about in type, so let's correct that and speak to one of the directors of police. Sarah, good to speak to you again.

Thanks so much, Peter. Lovely to be here.

Thanks so much, Peter. Lovely to be here.

It's certainly an old friend of the show, an old friend, a long time friend of the show. Andrew. Andrew, great to catch up with you again.

It's certainly an old friend of the show, an old friend, a long time friend of the show. Andrew. Andrew, great to catch up with you again.

Yes. It's been a while since I've been on Peter, but good to be back.

Yes. It's been a while since I've been on Peter, but good to be back.

Well, get out of that. Easy enough. A long time, friend. Alright. Yeah, well, Sarah, maybe you could just for those new listeners or people that haven't heard of it. I haven't spoken about it for a little while. Give us a bit of a brief thumbnail sketch of what you do and who you are.

Well, get out of that. Easy enough. A long time, friend. Alright. Yeah, well, Sarah, maybe you could just for those new listeners or people that haven't heard of it. I haven't spoken about it for a little while. Give us a bit of a brief thumbnail sketch of what you do and who you are.

Sure, absolutely. So Intopia is a, um, digital accessibility and inclusive design agency. And so we really specialize in helping organizations make sure their products are accessible and inclusive to everyone. And of course, that does include people with disabilities and also the blind community. Yeah, that's pretty much what we do in a nutshell. show. But then there's a whole range of things that that we kind of do as part of that, everything from helping organizations specifically make the product, you know, inclusive to helping, you know, particularly larger organizations. How do they make accessibility business as usual, and how do they do that at scale when you're likes of a big bank or a big e-commerce, you know, sort of, uh, organization. So there's a lot that definitely goes into it. And we can help with everything pretty much.

Sure, absolutely. So Intopia is a, um, digital accessibility and inclusive design agency. And so we really specialize in helping organizations make sure their products are accessible and inclusive to everyone. And of course, that does include people with disabilities and also the blind community. Yeah, that's pretty much what we do in a nutshell. show. But then there's a whole range of things that that we kind of do as part of that, everything from helping organizations specifically make the product, you know, inclusive to helping, you know, particularly larger organizations. How do they make accessibility business as usual, and how do they do that at scale when you're likes of a big bank or a big e-commerce, you know, sort of, uh, organization. So there's a lot that definitely goes into it. And we can help with everything pretty much.

Well, Andrew, how long have you been around?

Well, Andrew, how long have you been around?

Um, I've been in Tokyo. Not you personally.

Um, I've been in Tokyo. Not you personally.

But in Tokyo. I'm going to say that's.

But in Tokyo. I'm going to say that's.

A loaded question.

A loaded question.

I think it has been around for a bit over nine years, nine and a half years now, and I've been with them for, um, coming on for eight years. But, um, personally, I've been doing this stuff since the mid late 1990s.

I think it has been around for a bit over nine years, nine and a half years now, and I've been with them for, um, coming on for eight years. But, um, personally, I've been doing this stuff since the mid late 1990s.

If I remember our early chats about websites and how inaccessible they might have, might have been. And hopefully that's all getting better now. Andrew, you've been doing some really great work recently with the Human Rights Commission.

If I remember our early chats about websites and how inaccessible they might have, might have been. And hopefully that's all getting better now. Andrew, you've been doing some really great work recently with the Human Rights Commission.

Yes, we certainly have. Um. Utopia was contracted to help the Human Rights Commission update their advice under the Disability Discrimination Act or things Digital. They had a note there, which they've had a series of notes. The last one before we did this update was a version 4.1 showing that they'd been through many iterations. And I think the first note came out in the very late 90s. The last one referred specifically to the World Wide Web. Not that anybody calls it that anymore. But as we all know, digital is now ubiquitous. And so part of the requirement was to pick up everything outside the World Wide Web that's digital, and that the Disability Discrimination Act applies to. So, uh, we've worked with them, um, for over a year, probably to, uh, bring that new guidance, bring that new guidance.

Yes, we certainly have. Um. Utopia was contracted to help the Human Rights Commission update their advice under the Disability Discrimination Act or things Digital. They had a note there, which they've had a series of notes. The last one before we did this update was a version 4.1 showing that they'd been through many iterations. And I think the first note came out in the very late 90s. The last one referred specifically to the World Wide Web. Not that anybody calls it that anymore. But as we all know, digital is now ubiquitous. And so part of the requirement was to pick up everything outside the World Wide Web that's digital, and that the Disability Discrimination Act applies to. So, uh, we've worked with them, um, for over a year, probably to, uh, bring that new guidance, bring that new guidance.

Sort of about 18 months to almost.

Sort of about 18 months to almost.

Two years, closer to 18 months by the time it was released. That's right.

Two years, closer to 18 months by the time it was released. That's right.

And they well, are they are you happy with the finished product or is it kind of a live document? There's always work to be done.

And they well, are they are you happy with the finished product or is it kind of a live document? There's always work to be done.

There's always going to be work to be done because the technology keeps changing. And hopefully the commission will, um, pick that up and, uh, you know, produce small updates, um, from time to time rather than waiting for a big bang release of a brand new set of guidance. So, um, you know, we think we structured the new guidance in such a way that if a new standard comes out from the World Wide Web Consortium, um, like the wcaG three, say, um, in three years time, they can, you know, just apply that in the section that talks about standards or new standard comes out from standards Australia or the government releases a new policy like their recent, um, digital experience policy.

There's always going to be work to be done because the technology keeps changing. And hopefully the commission will, um, pick that up and, uh, you know, produce small updates, um, from time to time rather than waiting for a big bang release of a brand new set of guidance. So, um, you know, we think we structured the new guidance in such a way that if a new standard comes out from the World Wide Web Consortium, um, like the wcaG three, say, um, in three years time, they can, you know, just apply that in the section that talks about standards or new standard comes out from standards Australia or the government releases a new policy like their recent, um, digital experience policy.

Now what about as far as uh, companies, organizations that, uh, work with you? Sarah, do you go out looking for them? Do they come to you? Are you kind of, um, well recognized for the work that you can do and hopefully improve their business? Because I guess that's part of the the thing of being accessible is you kind of make yourself more open to more people.

Now what about as far as uh, companies, organizations that, uh, work with you? Sarah, do you go out looking for them? Do they come to you? Are you kind of, um, well recognized for the work that you can do and hopefully improve their business? Because I guess that's part of the the thing of being accessible is you kind of make yourself more open to more people.

Absolutely. Yeah. So we've got a really good reputation. And actually the majority of our work is either, um, people coming back to us who have worked with us before or may have worked with us at one organisation or, and move on to another, or they're referrals. So someone who has worked with us then, you know, refers another person on to us. So we actually do very little what I'll call when I say active marketing, probably what I should say is more that cold calling, you know, where you're on the phone to people going, hey, you know, I'm in topia. You know, we could help you like that. We do nothing like that. We get so many enquiries coming in that that's how we respond. But of course, we're out there talking about accessibility. You know, whether it's about the guidelines, you know, we've been talking about those a lot. Of course, since their launch, we've been doing some lunch and learns with some of the organizations they're working with and that kind of thing. So, you know, that's just one example, I guess, of how we're out there sharing our knowledge and experience, which means then people come to recognize us. And when they do need that help and assistance, then they they do tend to come to us and say, hey, we're at that point where we do want to take this further. How can you help us?

Absolutely. Yeah. So we've got a really good reputation. And actually the majority of our work is either, um, people coming back to us who have worked with us before or may have worked with us at one organisation or, and move on to another, or they're referrals. So someone who has worked with us then, you know, refers another person on to us. So we actually do very little what I'll call when I say active marketing, probably what I should say is more that cold calling, you know, where you're on the phone to people going, hey, you know, I'm in topia. You know, we could help you like that. We do nothing like that. We get so many enquiries coming in that that's how we respond. But of course, we're out there talking about accessibility. You know, whether it's about the guidelines, you know, we've been talking about those a lot. Of course, since their launch, we've been doing some lunch and learns with some of the organizations they're working with and that kind of thing. So, you know, that's just one example, I guess, of how we're out there sharing our knowledge and experience, which means then people come to recognize us. And when they do need that help and assistance, then they they do tend to come to us and say, hey, we're at that point where we do want to take this further. How can you help us?

Andrew Davis, that live with a disability, kind of know this is important and kind of get it, if I can put it that way. Do you think that the wider community are aware of it, and also kind of the more benefits, if you like, if they become more accessible not just to people with disabilities or not just to those people who might be blind or have low vision. Kind of the the broader application of making themselves accessible is something that more people are aware of.

Andrew Davis, that live with a disability, kind of know this is important and kind of get it, if I can put it that way. Do you think that the wider community are aware of it, and also kind of the more benefits, if you like, if they become more accessible not just to people with disabilities or not just to those people who might be blind or have low vision. Kind of the the broader application of making themselves accessible is something that more people are aware of.

Definitely. And, you know, the decade, two decades plus that I've been working in this area, the awareness has just been growing and growing and growing, which is a delight to see. And, you know, that's reflected obviously in Ethiopia's growth. We went from when I joined, we were five of us were now over 35. And that's an indication of the awareness out there in the community about how important this is to their business. And, you know, just to just throw a number in there. Now, if we talk about big numbers, like 21% of the population has a disability, what does that really mean? Now it's greater than the population of Sydney or the population of Melbourne. Is any organisation really prepared to ignore the population of Melbourne? Where I'm where I'm based? That's a big ask of their marketing and their, you know, digital team to say Melbourne doesn't matter. We'll just work with the rest of the country.

Definitely. And, you know, the decade, two decades plus that I've been working in this area, the awareness has just been growing and growing and growing, which is a delight to see. And, you know, that's reflected obviously in Ethiopia's growth. We went from when I joined, we were five of us were now over 35. And that's an indication of the awareness out there in the community about how important this is to their business. And, you know, just to just throw a number in there. Now, if we talk about big numbers, like 21% of the population has a disability, what does that really mean? Now it's greater than the population of Sydney or the population of Melbourne. Is any organisation really prepared to ignore the population of Melbourne? Where I'm where I'm based? That's a big ask of their marketing and their, you know, digital team to say Melbourne doesn't matter. We'll just work with the rest of the country.

I'm going to put that in the memory bank because often I say that, oh, you know, any business that can afford to alienate or not include 20% of the population, like they must be going more than okay. But when you put it like that, I mean, that kind of makes it even more real, doesn't it? You know, you're excluding Melbourne's population.

I'm going to put that in the memory bank because often I say that, oh, you know, any business that can afford to alienate or not include 20% of the population, like they must be going more than okay. But when you put it like that, I mean, that kind of makes it even more real, doesn't it? You know, you're excluding Melbourne's population.

Yeah, it gives some context around that 21%. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah, it gives some context around that 21%. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

It's one of the questions people ask. Is it expensive or how much is this going to cost? I guess you can probably reply by saying, well, you know, can you afford not to be that inclusive, but is that is that a consideration these days?

It's one of the questions people ask. Is it expensive or how much is this going to cost? I guess you can probably reply by saying, well, you know, can you afford not to be that inclusive, but is that is that a consideration these days?

Oh, look, it is definitely a consideration. You know, businesses are always weighing up, you know, where their profit margins are, how much things are going to cost, what is that benefit, that return on investment or that kind of thing. So, you know, it is definitely a a common conversation. And I think, you know, for us, like what we talk about is, you know, all of those different things that do impact businesses. And so, you know, it is good for, you know, your customers. So, you know, when you do build websites that are inclusive, it is actually just a better experience for everyone. It's also not just that sort of 21% who identify as having a disability, but you know, it is anyone who might have a temporary disability or find themselves in a situation that might actually, you know, impact them or that kind of thing. So. Once again, you know, there's lies, damn lies and statistics. And so it's like. Yep. You know, there's that there's an aging population and that kind of thing. It's also, you know, great for your brand. And also if you've got competitors that are not looking in this space, it's a competitive advantage as well to, you know, look at this and go, hey, you know, my competitors aren't really that accessible. Then there's an untapped market there. So, you know, for us, we really do talk about all of those different business benefits and tailor that to also the the organizations in the industry that they're in.

Oh, look, it is definitely a consideration. You know, businesses are always weighing up, you know, where their profit margins are, how much things are going to cost, what is that benefit, that return on investment or that kind of thing. So, you know, it is definitely a a common conversation. And I think, you know, for us, like what we talk about is, you know, all of those different things that do impact businesses. And so, you know, it is good for, you know, your customers. So, you know, when you do build websites that are inclusive, it is actually just a better experience for everyone. It's also not just that sort of 21% who identify as having a disability, but you know, it is anyone who might have a temporary disability or find themselves in a situation that might actually, you know, impact them or that kind of thing. So. Once again, you know, there's lies, damn lies and statistics. And so it's like. Yep. You know, there's that there's an aging population and that kind of thing. It's also, you know, great for your brand. And also if you've got competitors that are not looking in this space, it's a competitive advantage as well to, you know, look at this and go, hey, you know, my competitors aren't really that accessible. Then there's an untapped market there. So, you know, for us, we really do talk about all of those different business benefits and tailor that to also the the organizations in the industry that they're in.

Andrew, what about people that might want to kind of get involved with making things more accessible? Do you offer things in that area, courses or ways that people can kind of learn for themselves?

Andrew, what about people that might want to kind of get involved with making things more accessible? Do you offer things in that area, courses or ways that people can kind of learn for themselves?

We do. I mean, that's that's one of our Sarah mentioned right at the start about, you know, we do a whole range of different things. And one of the things we do offer is training either a group training for a group inside an organization. We also have some public training, and we also have some, you know, e-learning where, you know, an organization can import it into their own learning system. Now, typically the larger organizations like a large government department or a large corporate. But that means that you can learn at your own pace or you can, you know, do learn on demand. Okay, I need to know about X next week because of the project I'm working on. They can dip into the learning at that at that point. So yes, you know we that's one of the things we do. Just coming back to you know the advantages of inclusive design though. Now if you think about it, how many people take advantage of those curb cuts in the footpath these days? Just about everybody appreciates them not having to trip over the gutter. Um, even accessibility is much the same thing. You know, there's lots of documentation out there that, you know, a large part of the population now watch their TV or their movie with captions turned on, because they just find it easier to concentrate on it when they've got captions on and they're listening to the dialogue. So there's, you know, very much that broader benefit of Sarah was saying, of inclusive design and accessibility.

We do. I mean, that's that's one of our Sarah mentioned right at the start about, you know, we do a whole range of different things. And one of the things we do offer is training either a group training for a group inside an organization. We also have some public training, and we also have some, you know, e-learning where, you know, an organization can import it into their own learning system. Now, typically the larger organizations like a large government department or a large corporate. But that means that you can learn at your own pace or you can, you know, do learn on demand. Okay, I need to know about X next week because of the project I'm working on. They can dip into the learning at that at that point. So yes, you know we that's one of the things we do. Just coming back to you know the advantages of inclusive design though. Now if you think about it, how many people take advantage of those curb cuts in the footpath these days? Just about everybody appreciates them not having to trip over the gutter. Um, even accessibility is much the same thing. You know, there's lots of documentation out there that, you know, a large part of the population now watch their TV or their movie with captions turned on, because they just find it easier to concentrate on it when they've got captions on and they're listening to the dialogue. So there's, you know, very much that broader benefit of Sarah was saying, of inclusive design and accessibility.

So one of the other cool things that you do is you involve people with disabilities. You use them kind of for testing. So you're kind of getting that lived experience as well.

So one of the other cool things that you do is you involve people with disabilities. You use them kind of for testing. So you're kind of getting that lived experience as well.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so that's definitely a core part of, of what we do and something that we're always encouraging organizations to do more of. Unfortunately, the reality is a lot of organizations do when they're starting in accessibility, they do tend to focus more on does it conform with accessibility standards. But, you know, once they actually see, um, you know, a person with lived experience interacting with their product, you know, whatever that product is, it suddenly brings to light to them, you know, first of all, the value of that. Um, but also then that, um, you know, it's, um, there's nothing like watching a person struggle to do something, you know, to, to really drive home. You know what? That you know what that experience is like, and we're really clear with people that, uh, you know, just because something is what we call technically accessible, i.e. it conforms with standards, doesn't actually mean it's usable for people who are actually using that product, which is why it is so important to do user research and usability testing and get that feedback from people with lived experience to truly understand, you know, how how good your product is, basically.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so that's definitely a core part of, of what we do and something that we're always encouraging organizations to do more of. Unfortunately, the reality is a lot of organizations do when they're starting in accessibility, they do tend to focus more on does it conform with accessibility standards. But, you know, once they actually see, um, you know, a person with lived experience interacting with their product, you know, whatever that product is, it suddenly brings to light to them, you know, first of all, the value of that. Um, but also then that, um, you know, it's, um, there's nothing like watching a person struggle to do something, you know, to, to really drive home. You know what? That you know what that experience is like, and we're really clear with people that, uh, you know, just because something is what we call technically accessible, i.e. it conforms with standards, doesn't actually mean it's usable for people who are actually using that product, which is why it is so important to do user research and usability testing and get that feedback from people with lived experience to truly understand, you know, how how good your product is, basically.

That's a great point, isn't it, Andrew? Because it's not just a matter of sort of complying, but also, you know, that it can be, uh, intuitive or, you know, user friendly as well. Uh, you kind of almost can't, uh, you know, you can't put a price on that.

That's a great point, isn't it, Andrew? Because it's not just a matter of sort of complying, but also, you know, that it can be, uh, intuitive or, you know, user friendly as well. Uh, you kind of almost can't, uh, you know, you can't put a price on that.

That's right. And, you know, I always tend to say to people, if they're sort of humming and worrying about, you know, it might be a bit costly to, um, recruit some people with disability to do that usability testing. Think about it as an investment, because typically we find that if I've got, uh, you know, if I find a very minor thing, I. I can usually find a work way around it, but for some people with disabilities, it becomes a major roadblock for them and means that they can't actually proceed because of the nature of that. Um, you know, it might be a technical, it might be a usability issue, but, uh, you know, because of the technology that they're using, they, you know, whether it be a screen reader, whether it, you know, it's some sort of alternative keyboard or something like that, you know, it can become the, the, the thing that stops them progressing any further. And they'll look for, you know, another place to go and do their banking or their shopping or, or whatever it is. So, you know, we find that doing the usability testing with people with disabilities, especially with assistive technologies, can identify a lot of little hiccups that people like myself or Sarah might encounter and just jump over them before they become major blockers for others. So you know, it. It actually identifies a year or so earlier things that can make it better for everybody, not just for people with disability.

That's right. And, you know, I always tend to say to people, if they're sort of humming and worrying about, you know, it might be a bit costly to, um, recruit some people with disability to do that usability testing. Think about it as an investment, because typically we find that if I've got, uh, you know, if I find a very minor thing, I. I can usually find a work way around it, but for some people with disabilities, it becomes a major roadblock for them and means that they can't actually proceed because of the nature of that. Um, you know, it might be a technical, it might be a usability issue, but, uh, you know, because of the technology that they're using, they, you know, whether it be a screen reader, whether it, you know, it's some sort of alternative keyboard or something like that, you know, it can become the, the, the thing that stops them progressing any further. And they'll look for, you know, another place to go and do their banking or their shopping or, or whatever it is. So, you know, we find that doing the usability testing with people with disabilities, especially with assistive technologies, can identify a lot of little hiccups that people like myself or Sarah might encounter and just jump over them before they become major blockers for others. So you know, it. It actually identifies a year or so earlier things that can make it better for everybody, not just for people with disability.

Their customer life might be lost forever.

Their customer life might be lost forever.

That's right.

That's right.

Right. So if people want to find out more, you've also got a website where people can get a lot more information. You can sign up for your regular newsletters and information that you put out, which is always very, very interesting reading.

Right. So if people want to find out more, you've also got a website where people can get a lot more information. You can sign up for your regular newsletters and information that you put out, which is always very, very interesting reading.

Yeah, absolutely. It's very easy. It's intopia. That's our website, so really easy to get to. If you are interested in the guidelines that have been released from the Australian Human Rights Commission, we also have some resources. So not just the guidelines themselves, but you know, some resources like infographics. Also the webinar that launched the guidelines and a Q&A webinar that followed. So there's lots of resources on there around the guidelines, but then also everything else we've got, including the services we offer, but then also other free resources too that would help you, you know, just do things in a more accessible way.

Yeah, absolutely. It's very easy. It's intopia. That's our website, so really easy to get to. If you are interested in the guidelines that have been released from the Australian Human Rights Commission, we also have some resources. So not just the guidelines themselves, but you know, some resources like infographics. Also the webinar that launched the guidelines and a Q&A webinar that followed. So there's lots of resources on there around the guidelines, but then also everything else we've got, including the services we offer, but then also other free resources too that would help you, you know, just do things in a more accessible way.

Andrew, great to catch up. I hope we speak again in the not too distant future.

Andrew, great to catch up. I hope we speak again in the not too distant future.

Thanks, Peter.

Thanks, Peter.

Thanks very much, Peter.

Thanks very much, Peter.

That's Andrew Archer and also Sarah, police there from Intopia. We'll put those details up with our show notes.

That's Andrew Archer and also Sarah, police there from Intopia. We'll put those details up with our show notes.