We always enjoy catching up with Kelly Schultz. Doesn't matter what we talk about, it's always interesting and always relevant. A few weeks ago, we caught up with Kelly regarding information about the election and how people voted. I think the results are in in more ways than one. Kelly, great to have you back on and welcome.

We always enjoy catching up with Kelly Schultz. Doesn't matter what we talk about, it's always interesting and always relevant. A few weeks ago, we caught up with Kelly regarding information about the election and how people voted. I think the results are in in more ways than one. Kelly, great to have you back on and welcome.

Thank you Peter. It's always fun. Love a good chat.

Thank you Peter. It's always fun. Love a good chat.

Yeah. Well tell us for those who might have missed that, you were looking to find out what people's, uh, kind of impressions and experience was with voting, uh, this time around.

Yeah. Well tell us for those who might have missed that, you were looking to find out what people's, uh, kind of impressions and experience was with voting, uh, this time around.

Yeah, it was voting accessibility specifically. So, you know, our research is generally focused on people with disabilities, and it was just about accessibility. You know, we've got this compulsory voting thing in Australia which a lot of people frown upon. But, you know, compulsory voting came out of the fact that we should all have the opportunity to vote. So it's almost inherently an accessibility thing. But how accessible is voting?

Yeah, it was voting accessibility specifically. So, you know, our research is generally focused on people with disabilities, and it was just about accessibility. You know, we've got this compulsory voting thing in Australia which a lot of people frown upon. But, you know, compulsory voting came out of the fact that we should all have the opportunity to vote. So it's almost inherently an accessibility thing. But how accessible is voting?

And you've kind of done some digging around or some asking of people to find out what their experience was.

And you've kind of done some digging around or some asking of people to find out what their experience was.

We did, and that was it was actually before the election. So we were to find out before the election how people felt about accessibility in some way. We could do a follow up to find out how how it actually went. Some people had pre polled by the time we did our survey, but lots of people hadn't yet voted. So yeah, it was it was a it was an interesting mix.

We did, and that was it was actually before the election. So we were to find out before the election how people felt about accessibility in some way. We could do a follow up to find out how how it actually went. Some people had pre polled by the time we did our survey, but lots of people hadn't yet voted. So yeah, it was it was a it was an interesting mix.

Now what did you ask and what did you find out?

Now what did you ask and what did you find out?

Well, it was absolutely about voting and the process itself and information nothing to do with their political persuasion or they were going to vote for. We talked about a few different things. We talked about overall accessibility and voting choices. So how people choose to vote. We talked about information accessibility and the fact that the Electoral Commission obviously does have some accessible voting options in terms of the information that you can get about the election. We also asked people about electronic voting because obviously not something we have here in Australia, but we're keen to understand whether people thought that was a good idea. And we also asked about sort of popular opinion, public opinion and privacy in voting. So privacy is a big one for people, particularly where they need assistance.

Well, it was absolutely about voting and the process itself and information nothing to do with their political persuasion or they were going to vote for. We talked about a few different things. We talked about overall accessibility and voting choices. So how people choose to vote. We talked about information accessibility and the fact that the Electoral Commission obviously does have some accessible voting options in terms of the information that you can get about the election. We also asked people about electronic voting because obviously not something we have here in Australia, but we're keen to understand whether people thought that was a good idea. And we also asked about sort of popular opinion, public opinion and privacy in voting. So privacy is a big one for people, particularly where they need assistance.

What did you find out? What was kind of can you kind of glean something from it all? I guess different people, different experiences, of course.

What did you find out? What was kind of can you kind of glean something from it all? I guess different people, different experiences, of course.

Well, I think the headline for me is that 43% of people have considered not voting because of accessibility.

Well, I think the headline for me is that 43% of people have considered not voting because of accessibility.

Wow. That is a headline.

Wow. That is a headline.

Think about that. That's the the the disability population we're talking about, you know, what is it 20% of the population these days. So 43% of those people have considered not voting because of accessibility barriers to to vote, and 18% of them have actually said they have skipped voting, be it federal or state voting in some way because of the barriers to to actually get to vote.

Think about that. That's the the the disability population we're talking about, you know, what is it 20% of the population these days. So 43% of those people have considered not voting because of accessibility barriers to to vote, and 18% of them have actually said they have skipped voting, be it federal or state voting in some way because of the barriers to to actually get to vote.

You can't compare that with the general population.

You can't compare that with the general population.

Can you know, we don't have a general population view of that. We're only talking about the the population we have, which is people with disabilities.

Can you know, we don't have a general population view of that. We're only talking about the the population we have, which is people with disabilities.

And you have to think that was overrepresented in terms of those numbers, you'd think that in the general population. Less well, of course, less people would have the accessibility issue or excuse anyway.

And you have to think that was overrepresented in terms of those numbers, you'd think that in the general population. Less well, of course, less people would have the accessibility issue or excuse anyway.

Exactly. So. But if you do take so if we look at the percentage of the the overall population being 20% and with disability 43% of those, so we're talking, you know, like 8 to 10% of the overall population is what we're talking about potentially.

Exactly. So. But if you do take so if we look at the percentage of the the overall population being 20% and with disability 43% of those, so we're talking, you know, like 8 to 10% of the overall population is what we're talking about potentially.

Yeah. Which is very, very high. What about in terms of getting access to information? I've got to admit I was okay as far as my, uh, information coming to me went and quite in a timely way. But I don't think that was the the overall experience.

Yeah. Which is very, very high. What about in terms of getting access to information? I've got to admit I was okay as far as my, uh, information coming to me went and quite in a timely way. But I don't think that was the the overall experience.

So we did a couple of extra tests on getting access to information. Generally, only less than 30% of the people we surveyed knew that there was accessible information available, and it may not have applied to them. So not all disabilities obviously have an information accessibility element to them. But in terms of we did a couple of tests, we did four different tests of requesting accessible information from the Electoral Commission following their process. Three out of four of those were successful and people did receive the information prior to the election. So that's a good thing. But the experience of actually getting it wasn't necessarily that great because of really just training. So to ramp up an election. The commission's got to find people. Basically, they've got to find people and train them who are available now to sit and answer phone calls. But what we would say is they probably needs to be a little bit more emphasis on people calling for support to understand what the accessible information options are.

So we did a couple of extra tests on getting access to information. Generally, only less than 30% of the people we surveyed knew that there was accessible information available, and it may not have applied to them. So not all disabilities obviously have an information accessibility element to them. But in terms of we did a couple of tests, we did four different tests of requesting accessible information from the Electoral Commission following their process. Three out of four of those were successful and people did receive the information prior to the election. So that's a good thing. But the experience of actually getting it wasn't necessarily that great because of really just training. So to ramp up an election. The commission's got to find people. Basically, they've got to find people and train them who are available now to sit and answer phone calls. But what we would say is they probably needs to be a little bit more emphasis on people calling for support to understand what the accessible information options are.

It's a little bit like suburb lottery, isn't it? Or a situation where, depending on who you get when you ring as to what information you get, that's right.

It's a little bit like suburb lottery, isn't it? Or a situation where, depending on who you get when you ring as to what information you get, that's right.

And if someone has heard of it before or done it before, or had someone else call with that particular question. But overall, I think information accessibility is an interesting one. One of the the sort of insights and suggestions out of this we have is to make the accessible information hub more obvious and easier to navigate, because there are there were people who fed back that there is easy read versions of the information, but it's not easy read to get there. So it's great that you've got an easy read version, but how do I get there to get the easy read version?

And if someone has heard of it before or done it before, or had someone else call with that particular question. But overall, I think information accessibility is an interesting one. One of the the sort of insights and suggestions out of this we have is to make the accessible information hub more obvious and easier to navigate, because there are there were people who fed back that there is easy read versions of the information, but it's not easy read to get there. So it's great that you've got an easy read version, but how do I get there to get the easy read version?

It also found in terms of finding out the candidates, once you got there, it was okay. But again, getting to that particular point on the website and I must admit I actually asked, have my candidate sent to me in Braille, which they did do, and in time, so well done on that. But I tried before to check out the website and get the information. As I said, once I finally got there it was okay, but it wasn't that easy to get there. Which, you know, uh, I was gonna got a list of person summaries, maybe not as obsessive about something like this, but hey, I'll blow this. I'm going to just give it away.

It also found in terms of finding out the candidates, once you got there, it was okay. But again, getting to that particular point on the website and I must admit I actually asked, have my candidate sent to me in Braille, which they did do, and in time, so well done on that. But I tried before to check out the website and get the information. As I said, once I finally got there it was okay, but it wasn't that easy to get there. Which, you know, uh, I was gonna got a list of person summaries, maybe not as obsessive about something like this, but hey, I'll blow this. I'm going to just give it away.

And.

And.

You just. I'll give it. I'll get. Yeah, I'll get someone else to help me somewhere down the track.

You just. I'll give it. I'll get. Yeah, I'll get someone else to help me somewhere down the track.

Yeah. So, I mean, your experience validates exactly what we heard, which is, it's great that you've got accessible things, but make them easier, more, more easy to access in the first place.

Yeah. So, I mean, your experience validates exactly what we heard, which is, it's great that you've got accessible things, but make them easier, more, more easy to access in the first place.

Anything else from the survey that sort of stands out?

Anything else from the survey that sort of stands out?

Well, I think, um, particularly for the blind, low vision community, if we talk about them specifically. Overall, we ask people to rate the accessibility of their voting experience, previous voting experiences. And it was a 1 to 5 question and we came out at three, which is pretty understandable overall. But people with blindness and low vision came out at two, right? So the blind low vision community actually feel that election and voting is less accessible than the rest of the disability community, which I thought was an interesting insight. And then when we talk about electronic voting, the low vision community have, uh, far more trust in electronic voting than everyone else as well. So a.

Well, I think, um, particularly for the blind, low vision community, if we talk about them specifically. Overall, we ask people to rate the accessibility of their voting experience, previous voting experiences. And it was a 1 to 5 question and we came out at three, which is pretty understandable overall. But people with blindness and low vision came out at two, right? So the blind low vision community actually feel that election and voting is less accessible than the rest of the disability community, which I thought was an interesting insight. And then when we talk about electronic voting, the low vision community have, uh, far more trust in electronic voting than everyone else as well. So a.

Fascinating.

Fascinating.

71% of our low vision and blind users said that they would trust, um, electronic voting, and only 7% said they would distrust it. So everyone else is a bit in the middle. But are the averages overall the the average trust was only at 20% of people would trust electronic voting. So the blind low vision community are much more. I don't know whether they're more tech savvy or more trusting of those sorts of systems, or whether electronic voting would feel like a much more accessible, independent way to vote. Because if you're using telephone voting, the feedback we got there was still that. But I still have to tell it to a person so it doesn't feel private and it doesn't feel independent. So I wonder, I'm not sure. I wonder whether there's something about electronic voting that the blind and low vision community would embrace, compared to lots of other people.

71% of our low vision and blind users said that they would trust, um, electronic voting, and only 7% said they would distrust it. So everyone else is a bit in the middle. But are the averages overall the the average trust was only at 20% of people would trust electronic voting. So the blind low vision community are much more. I don't know whether they're more tech savvy or more trusting of those sorts of systems, or whether electronic voting would feel like a much more accessible, independent way to vote. Because if you're using telephone voting, the feedback we got there was still that. But I still have to tell it to a person so it doesn't feel private and it doesn't feel independent. So I wonder, I'm not sure. I wonder whether there's something about electronic voting that the blind and low vision community would embrace, compared to lots of other people.

I think that's it. I mean, as you were going through that, that would be my sort of instinct to say, well, this was good. And I've often said, don't let the good get in the way of the perfect. I mean, this telephone voting isn't perfect, but it's certainly better than what other options might be. But I think the electronic way to kind of feel like you've done it all on your own and hit the button send and that's it would feel a bit more like, well, I've done it all myself, rather than, uh, yes, it's been good to speak to someone who's taken my vote, but not quite as secretively as might have otherwise been the case.

I think that's it. I mean, as you were going through that, that would be my sort of instinct to say, well, this was good. And I've often said, don't let the good get in the way of the perfect. I mean, this telephone voting isn't perfect, but it's certainly better than what other options might be. But I think the electronic way to kind of feel like you've done it all on your own and hit the button send and that's it would feel a bit more like, well, I've done it all myself, rather than, uh, yes, it's been good to speak to someone who's taken my vote, but not quite as secretively as might have otherwise been the case.

Yeah, and I think privacy is a big thing for people when it comes to voting. We heard from a few different people who said, you know, they don't feel like even when they're crammed in in a polling place that they that it's private, but particularly if they have to have someone help them. So even if it's a trusted person, you're still having a conversation or, uh, you know, one of the, one of the people we spoke to needs to sit down to vote. Did you know that there's actually nowhere to sit down to vote. If you bring your own chair and you're in a wheelchair, you're fine. You've got a lower.

Yeah, and I think privacy is a big thing for people when it comes to voting. We heard from a few different people who said, you know, they don't feel like even when they're crammed in in a polling place that they that it's private, but particularly if they have to have someone help them. So even if it's a trusted person, you're still having a conversation or, uh, you know, one of the, one of the people we spoke to needs to sit down to vote. Did you know that there's actually nowhere to sit down to vote. If you bring your own chair and you're in a wheelchair, you're fine. You've got a lower.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Great point. But there's actually they just don't generally have chairs. Yeah. So if you need to, if you have that sort of fatigue or a disability where you can walk in there, but you need to sit down regularly, there's nowhere for you to vote so people can end up in all sorts of different places because they need to sit down, which ends up them not having a private voting experience.

Great point. But there's actually they just don't generally have chairs. Yeah. So if you need to, if you have that sort of fatigue or a disability where you can walk in there, but you need to sit down regularly, there's nowhere for you to vote so people can end up in all sorts of different places because they need to sit down, which ends up them not having a private voting experience.

By voting by phone. But I went with someone just because they had to vote or they had to vote. They chose the vote on the day at a booth, and we probably stood around for 25 to 35 minutes beforehand. And you're quite right when you get into the booth, I mean, it's pretty flimsy in terms of, uh, you know, the, the cardboard, the partitions that you got up around you. I mean, okay, you know, no one's going to tell you people have to be peeking in to see exactly what's going on. But, you know, people could feel a bit, shall we say, vulnerable or or feel like it's not as secure as you might otherwise be the case.

By voting by phone. But I went with someone just because they had to vote or they had to vote. They chose the vote on the day at a booth, and we probably stood around for 25 to 35 minutes beforehand. And you're quite right when you get into the booth, I mean, it's pretty flimsy in terms of, uh, you know, the, the cardboard, the partitions that you got up around you. I mean, okay, you know, no one's going to tell you people have to be peeking in to see exactly what's going on. But, you know, people could feel a bit, shall we say, vulnerable or or feel like it's not as secure as you might otherwise be the case.

And quite vulnerable and sensory overload as well. They're not exactly quiet places either.

And quite vulnerable and sensory overload as well. They're not exactly quiet places either.

Oh no. No. And actually we chatted beforehand and you said, oh, when you go along, uh, ask about how to vote cards. Would you believe where we went was so quiet? There were no how to vote? Hand her out.

Oh no. No. And actually we chatted beforehand and you said, oh, when you go along, uh, ask about how to vote cards. Would you believe where we went was so quiet? There were no how to vote? Hand her out.

Oh, no. You missed opportunity.

Oh, no. You missed opportunity.

Missed opportunity?

Missed opportunity?

Yeah, that would have been great. And I think the other thing, the other thing that I will add is staff training becomes one of the other elements that is always comes up in almost everything we do is that people people and training and almost from both sides. So it was really interesting to hear from from people who felt dismissed by polling staff previously, one who the person at the registration desk turned to their mother and said, are they pretending to be an adult because of short stature? You are just atrocious versus someone else who is deaf and he just wanted to vote. And they ended up going through this whole rigmarole process of, uh, do you want us to get an interpreter on a video link? Can you lip read? What do you want to do? Sort of overdoing it when really you just needed to give his name and get his ballot papers. They ended up explaining to him how the voting process works. And he said to me, I've been voting for 20 years. I know how to do it. I just wanted my ballot papers.

Yeah, that would have been great. And I think the other thing, the other thing that I will add is staff training becomes one of the other elements that is always comes up in almost everything we do is that people people and training and almost from both sides. So it was really interesting to hear from from people who felt dismissed by polling staff previously, one who the person at the registration desk turned to their mother and said, are they pretending to be an adult because of short stature? You are just atrocious versus someone else who is deaf and he just wanted to vote. And they ended up going through this whole rigmarole process of, uh, do you want us to get an interpreter on a video link? Can you lip read? What do you want to do? Sort of overdoing it when really you just needed to give his name and get his ballot papers. They ended up explaining to him how the voting process works. And he said to me, I've been voting for 20 years. I know how to do it. I just wanted my ballot papers.

Yeah. Amazing. Kelly, what happens with your information now? What do you do with it?

Yeah. Amazing. Kelly, what happens with your information now? What do you do with it?

Well, I need to put a bit of effort into writing it out in a coherent way, and then it'll be up on our website for all to see and all to take advantage of.

Well, I need to put a bit of effort into writing it out in a coherent way, and then it'll be up on our website for all to see and all to take advantage of.

All right. Well, maybe let you, uh, or let us know when that happens, and we can let people know. Kelly, great to catch up. Now, if people want to find out more about what you're doing, uh, how can we, uh, get in touch with you? What's your website?

All right. Well, maybe let you, uh, or let us know when that happens, and we can let people know. Kelly, great to catch up. Now, if people want to find out more about what you're doing, uh, how can we, uh, get in touch with you? What's your website?

Website is knowable. Me so k n o w a b l e dot. If you want to sign up, that's forward slash. Sign up. Uh, come and join us and provide your feedback.

Website is knowable. Me so k n o w a b l e dot. If you want to sign up, that's forward slash. Sign up. Uh, come and join us and provide your feedback.

Kelly Schulz there from knowable me.

Kelly Schulz there from knowable me.