Following the news in recent weeks that music and art therapies were currently under review by the NDIS, questions have been posed around the evidence that music and art therapies provide such a vital service, which has been responded to in overwhelming fashion by not only therapists but so many participants out there over the years, myself included, who have benefited so much from music therapy. And in that vein, it's my absolute pleasure to welcome somebody I've known for quite a long time. Music therapist Emily Shanahan to Talking Vision. Emily. Hello. Welcome to Talking Vision. Thanks so much for your time.

Following the news in recent weeks that music and art therapies were currently under review by the NDIS, questions have been posed around the evidence that music and art therapies provide such a vital service, which has been responded to in overwhelming fashion by not only therapists but so many participants out there over the years, myself included, who have benefited so much from music therapy. And in that vein, it's my absolute pleasure to welcome somebody I've known for quite a long time. Music therapist Emily Shanahan to Talking Vision. Emily. Hello. Welcome to Talking Vision. Thanks so much for your time.

Oh, it's great to be here, Sam. Thank you so much for the invitation.

Oh, it's great to be here, Sam. Thank you so much for the invitation.

It's great to connect up with you. Let's just get a bit of an overview of yourself and your work in the music therapy space.

It's great to connect up with you. Let's just get a bit of an overview of yourself and your work in the music therapy space.

Well, I have been a music therapist for a very long time now. I think where we first crossed paths was about 24 years ago. The vibe in Burwood.

Well, I have been a music therapist for a very long time now. I think where we first crossed paths was about 24 years ago. The vibe in Burwood.

That's right. Yep.

That's right. Yep.

And, um. Yeah, it sounds crazy that it's that long ago.

And, um. Yeah, it sounds crazy that it's that long ago.

It does.

It does.

Really? I'm still. Yeah, I'm still working in the field. And I've spent a fair bit of time in specialist schools and pediatric hospitals and in early intervention. I've been doing on occasions a bit of teaching at Melbourne Uni in the subjects of clinical improvisation and simulated practicum. And I'm currently working in early intervention in a community healthcare setting.

Really? I'm still. Yeah, I'm still working in the field. And I've spent a fair bit of time in specialist schools and pediatric hospitals and in early intervention. I've been doing on occasions a bit of teaching at Melbourne Uni in the subjects of clinical improvisation and simulated practicum. And I'm currently working in early intervention in a community healthcare setting.

Oh, fantastic. And, um, let's just go into a bit about what we are here to chat about today. Now, people have no doubt probably followed the news recently, in the past few weeks with a lot of, I guess uncertainty is the word we'd use around the future of music and art therapies going into 2025. So I'd just like to get some thoughts from yourself, and I suppose the sector and other colleagues of yours and how you've reacted to this recent news regarding the funding changes.

Oh, fantastic. And, um, let's just go into a bit about what we are here to chat about today. Now, people have no doubt probably followed the news recently, in the past few weeks with a lot of, I guess uncertainty is the word we'd use around the future of music and art therapies going into 2025. So I'd just like to get some thoughts from yourself, and I suppose the sector and other colleagues of yours and how you've reacted to this recent news regarding the funding changes.

Yeah, I think I mean, you really hit the nail on the head with the word uncertainty because it was a complete shock when we found out about this that the funding was going to be cut. And as a result, it's been a really challenging couple of weeks for music therapists, but also for our participants who are now feeling a little bit on edge, like there will be 8000 participants who will be impacted by funding cuts if this goes ahead. And so, I mean, that is an enormous number of people who are going to be really, seriously impacted. The Music Therapy Association has been incredible. Like their response is amazing. As registered music therapists, we're pretty used to having to fight for our cause, but this has really been extreme. As a positive, I guess the support that we've felt from each other and the community has been incredible. And our petition to keep music therapy as an NDIS funded therapeutic support is it's now reached 58,000 signatures.

Yeah, I think I mean, you really hit the nail on the head with the word uncertainty because it was a complete shock when we found out about this that the funding was going to be cut. And as a result, it's been a really challenging couple of weeks for music therapists, but also for our participants who are now feeling a little bit on edge, like there will be 8000 participants who will be impacted by funding cuts if this goes ahead. And so, I mean, that is an enormous number of people who are going to be really, seriously impacted. The Music Therapy Association has been incredible. Like their response is amazing. As registered music therapists, we're pretty used to having to fight for our cause, but this has really been extreme. As a positive, I guess the support that we've felt from each other and the community has been incredible. And our petition to keep music therapy as an NDIS funded therapeutic support is it's now reached 58,000 signatures.

Oh my God, that's incredible. No, that's, um, that's really pleasing to hear that it's gotten such a really amazing response like that. But it really does speak to the importance of music therapy. And this ties into something you and I are both acutely aware of. And that's why music therapy is so crucial to so many people in the community. Now let's go into that because there's so much we can unpack here. There's so many different aspects, and I know the impact that it's had for me, but I'd just love to get your thoughts and go to the heart of why it's so important, and why it really means so much to be involved in that sector.

Oh my God, that's incredible. No, that's, um, that's really pleasing to hear that it's gotten such a really amazing response like that. But it really does speak to the importance of music therapy. And this ties into something you and I are both acutely aware of. And that's why music therapy is so crucial to so many people in the community. Now let's go into that because there's so much we can unpack here. There's so many different aspects, and I know the impact that it's had for me, but I'd just love to get your thoughts and go to the heart of why it's so important, and why it really means so much to be involved in that sector.

Yeah. Great question, I think. I mean, music can have such a profound impact on people. And you don't have to be a musician by any means for that to be true. But to use music in a therapeutic context is such a privilege for me. I think what makes music therapy so crucial is that it can be an incredible way to connect with someone, and to give them a voice, when sometimes other therapies may not have been the answer. And I think we're hearing a lot of stories about this at the moment in the news. So many participants saying I couldn't access other things, I couldn't you know, I think music therapy can be such a motivating way of achieving these functional outcomes. And look, that's the language that's really important to funding supports like the Ndia. Is that functional outcomes, those things like improved participation and independence in daily practical activities. So this is what's being funded. And as a therapist that we're really trying to prove that what we're doing is impacting the daily lives of our participants.

Yeah. Great question, I think. I mean, music can have such a profound impact on people. And you don't have to be a musician by any means for that to be true. But to use music in a therapeutic context is such a privilege for me. I think what makes music therapy so crucial is that it can be an incredible way to connect with someone, and to give them a voice, when sometimes other therapies may not have been the answer. And I think we're hearing a lot of stories about this at the moment in the news. So many participants saying I couldn't access other things, I couldn't you know, I think music therapy can be such a motivating way of achieving these functional outcomes. And look, that's the language that's really important to funding supports like the Ndia. Is that functional outcomes, those things like improved participation and independence in daily practical activities. So this is what's being funded. And as a therapist that we're really trying to prove that what we're doing is impacting the daily lives of our participants.

And I must say, I'd vouch for that 100%. You know, this is something I've gotten involved in since a very young age. And I think without music therapy, there's a bunch of doors that wouldn't have been opened. Although, you know, I have always been quite musically inclined, have had perfect pitch and all that sort of thing. But responding to that, when you're 3 or 4 and then people sort of think, oh, okay, there's, you know, something there. So it moves on to the next kind of thing. And having that involvement with other people as well, that social element and, you know, making music together. And and that's just been so fun as well. And that was just, you know, I have memories that last a lifetime. And then one of those people is now a world touring, you know, singer in a rock band and you just think, oh my God. Well, that just wouldn't have been possible without music therapy. And there's so much to unpack and so many great stories to share and all that sort of thing as well.

And I must say, I'd vouch for that 100%. You know, this is something I've gotten involved in since a very young age. And I think without music therapy, there's a bunch of doors that wouldn't have been opened. Although, you know, I have always been quite musically inclined, have had perfect pitch and all that sort of thing. But responding to that, when you're 3 or 4 and then people sort of think, oh, okay, there's, you know, something there. So it moves on to the next kind of thing. And having that involvement with other people as well, that social element and, you know, making music together. And and that's just been so fun as well. And that was just, you know, I have memories that last a lifetime. And then one of those people is now a world touring, you know, singer in a rock band and you just think, oh my God. Well, that just wouldn't have been possible without music therapy. And there's so much to unpack and so many great stories to share and all that sort of thing as well.

Would it be okay for me to say, Sam? Yeah. So I think when you met me in 2001 and we there was a choir and a few performances that happened and a lot of laughing and learning, I think, from that group. There are quite a number who are working professionally in music.

Would it be okay for me to say, Sam? Yeah. So I think when you met me in 2001 and we there was a choir and a few performances that happened and a lot of laughing and learning, I think, from that group. There are quite a number who are working professionally in music.

Yes.

Yes.

And I mean, that's just incredible that talking of functional goals that, you know, people have it now is their vocation. Yeah. I learnt a lot in that setting and look. Perfect pitch. How amazing. Not a skill that I have, but so many people at rehab had these incredible skills.

And I mean, that's just incredible that talking of functional goals that, you know, people have it now is their vocation. Yeah. I learnt a lot in that setting and look. Perfect pitch. How amazing. Not a skill that I have, but so many people at rehab had these incredible skills.

That that it.

That that it.

Was just beautiful using music to embrace that together.

Was just beautiful using music to embrace that together.

That's exactly it. And you know, one of those was the late, great Dorothy Hamilton, who sadly left us a few months back now. She had such a profound impact on Braille music and getting kids who are totally blind and getting them into music and teaching them that music is accessible in that way. And, um, absolutely. We had a conversation with one of the transcribers of Braille music, Geordie Howell, who works at Vision Australia, and she's quite a central figure or has been in the braille music camps over the past almost two decades now, both as a student and going back and helping out as a teacher. So there's so many different connections and ways that Braille music can interface with other parts of, you know, the music therapy space. And so that's that's also quite interesting. What sort of things would you have to say in terms of music therapy in particular, with relation to blindness and low vision? I know I know we've spoken a bit about the interactions with people through our vibe, but what sort of things have really stood out for you over the decades in terms of how those two kind of interact?

That's exactly it. And you know, one of those was the late, great Dorothy Hamilton, who sadly left us a few months back now. She had such a profound impact on Braille music and getting kids who are totally blind and getting them into music and teaching them that music is accessible in that way. And, um, absolutely. We had a conversation with one of the transcribers of Braille music, Geordie Howell, who works at Vision Australia, and she's quite a central figure or has been in the braille music camps over the past almost two decades now, both as a student and going back and helping out as a teacher. So there's so many different connections and ways that Braille music can interface with other parts of, you know, the music therapy space. And so that's that's also quite interesting. What sort of things would you have to say in terms of music therapy in particular, with relation to blindness and low vision? I know I know we've spoken a bit about the interactions with people through our vibe, but what sort of things have really stood out for you over the decades in terms of how those two kind of interact?

Thinking about it in terms of the language that we're needing to use with the NDIS and those functional outcomes. I've been doing some work with a young student who is blind, and it's about those daily supports around, you know, how you might have a shower or how you might go into a public space and things that you need to think about. So we might do chanting or breathwork and relaxation activities around that, or we might create songs together to the point where they can be used independently to help with those goals. And I think in terms of accessibility, I think music is just something for so many people that I've worked with has just been particularly accessible because there are just so many skills in that area.

Thinking about it in terms of the language that we're needing to use with the NDIS and those functional outcomes. I've been doing some work with a young student who is blind, and it's about those daily supports around, you know, how you might have a shower or how you might go into a public space and things that you need to think about. So we might do chanting or breathwork and relaxation activities around that, or we might create songs together to the point where they can be used independently to help with those goals. And I think in terms of accessibility, I think music is just something for so many people that I've worked with has just been particularly accessible because there are just so many skills in that area.

Finally, Emily, I think we'll get back to particularly what you and others in the music therapy space are hoping for anticipating in terms of next steps that you'd like to see from the government and from the Ndia going forward in the next weeks and months to come.

Finally, Emily, I think we'll get back to particularly what you and others in the music therapy space are hoping for anticipating in terms of next steps that you'd like to see from the government and from the Ndia going forward in the next weeks and months to come.

Um, I guess ultimately what we're hoping for would be for this decision to be reversed. Yes. And for the government to keep music therapy as an NDIS funded therapeutic support. Our association did meet with Minister Bill shorten recently, and he did acknowledge the importance of music therapy as an evidence based support. And now there's going to be an independent review that will maintain and ensure the quality of the therapeutic services. So Doctor Stephen Duckett has been appointed to review the evidence, and the Amta has requested that he provide some copies of evidence that founded why this decision happened originally. But yeah, we also hope, I guess, that he meet with participants and their families to hear firsthand about the work that we're doing and the impact that that can have. And finally, I'd say probably as an allied health profession, that we're fighting to have the same standards and review processes as colleagues, for example, those in speech pathology or occupational therapy. So, yeah, we're hoping it will be a very comprehensive review and that will be consulted through the decision making process. And I think we need some time really before any changes happen in the pricing guidelines. Yeah.

Um, I guess ultimately what we're hoping for would be for this decision to be reversed. Yes. And for the government to keep music therapy as an NDIS funded therapeutic support. Our association did meet with Minister Bill shorten recently, and he did acknowledge the importance of music therapy as an evidence based support. And now there's going to be an independent review that will maintain and ensure the quality of the therapeutic services. So Doctor Stephen Duckett has been appointed to review the evidence, and the Amta has requested that he provide some copies of evidence that founded why this decision happened originally. But yeah, we also hope, I guess, that he meet with participants and their families to hear firsthand about the work that we're doing and the impact that that can have. And finally, I'd say probably as an allied health profession, that we're fighting to have the same standards and review processes as colleagues, for example, those in speech pathology or occupational therapy. So, yeah, we're hoping it will be a very comprehensive review and that will be consulted through the decision making process. And I think we need some time really before any changes happen in the pricing guidelines. Yeah.

And Emily, if people would love to find out a bit more about music therapy, what's the best place to head to?

And Emily, if people would love to find out a bit more about music therapy, what's the best place to head to?

I would say the best place to head to is our website, which is MTA. Org. Oh, I'll spell it out just in case. That will help. Yeah a s t mta.org. Oh, and there are a few drop down columns, but the one about music therapy then drops down to music therapy and the NDIS. If that is what they're specifically looking for. And in there, there is a disability evidence summary, which is really informative and written by many, many clever music therapists and definitely worth a read. There are also lots of videos about music therapy which tell stories of music therapy in different working in early intervention or working in aged care, and they're really amazing resources to have a listen to if people are interested.

I would say the best place to head to is our website, which is MTA. Org. Oh, I'll spell it out just in case. That will help. Yeah a s t mta.org. Oh, and there are a few drop down columns, but the one about music therapy then drops down to music therapy and the NDIS. If that is what they're specifically looking for. And in there, there is a disability evidence summary, which is really informative and written by many, many clever music therapists and definitely worth a read. There are also lots of videos about music therapy which tell stories of music therapy in different working in early intervention or working in aged care, and they're really amazing resources to have a listen to if people are interested.

Perfect. Well, I've been speaking today with Emily Shanahan about the changes in music therapy and the future of both music and art therapies in 2025, so we both follow that with great interest. Emily, thank you so much for your time today. It was great to catch up with you again and chat all about music therapy.

Perfect. Well, I've been speaking today with Emily Shanahan about the changes in music therapy and the future of both music and art therapies in 2025, so we both follow that with great interest. Emily, thank you so much for your time today. It was great to catch up with you again and chat all about music therapy.

My pleasure Sam, and thank you so much for your support.

My pleasure Sam, and thank you so much for your support.