Well, some really exciting news from La Trobe University. Let's welcome Doctor Rebecca Flower, who's going to tell us about a toolkit that is being rolled out for the public service in Victoria. Rebecca. Rebecca, for Michael, thank you for your time.

Well, some really exciting news from La Trobe University. Let's welcome Doctor Rebecca Flower, who's going to tell us about a toolkit that is being rolled out for the public service in Victoria. Rebecca. Rebecca, for Michael, thank you for your time.

Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk about the Neurodiversity Employment Toolkit.

Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk about the Neurodiversity Employment Toolkit.

Just a bit about it. It sounds like a lot of research, a lot of background has gone into this.

Just a bit about it. It sounds like a lot of research, a lot of background has gone into this.

Yeah, absolutely. So just for a bit of context, my colleague Ellen Richardson and I were working with the Victorian Public Sector Commission on a broader project aimed at reducing barriers for neurodivergent people entering the Victorian public service. And during that project, we suggested the development of this toolkit as something likely to be useful to employers. So I work with a lot of employers who want to know more about neurodiversity and how to support neurodivergent employees, and we just thought this toolkit would be a great resource as a starting kind of, um, somewhere that people could go to get some basic information and go from there.

Yeah, absolutely. So just for a bit of context, my colleague Ellen Richardson and I were working with the Victorian Public Sector Commission on a broader project aimed at reducing barriers for neurodivergent people entering the Victorian public service. And during that project, we suggested the development of this toolkit as something likely to be useful to employers. So I work with a lot of employers who want to know more about neurodiversity and how to support neurodivergent employees, and we just thought this toolkit would be a great resource as a starting kind of, um, somewhere that people could go to get some basic information and go from there.

So in a sense it's been employed demanded or employed driven.

So in a sense it's been employed demanded or employed driven.

Absolutely. Yeah. There's a real need among employers to learn about this information. I've spoken to so many who want to know about about neurodiversity, but there's also a need among the neurodivergent community as well. And I guess just for a bit of context, when I say the word neurodivergent, I'm referring to people who are autistic, who are an ADHD like me. I have ADHD people who have dyslexia or are dyslexic, dyscalculia, dysgraphia and dyspraxia. And I'm just using identity first language there because that's often what's preferred in the neurodivergent community. So there's a real barriers to employment for many neurodivergent people. And we're hoping that this toolkit will benefit both employers and neurodivergent people looking for jobs and in jobs.

Absolutely. Yeah. There's a real need among employers to learn about this information. I've spoken to so many who want to know about about neurodiversity, but there's also a need among the neurodivergent community as well. And I guess just for a bit of context, when I say the word neurodivergent, I'm referring to people who are autistic, who are an ADHD like me. I have ADHD people who have dyslexia or are dyslexic, dyscalculia, dysgraphia and dyspraxia. And I'm just using identity first language there because that's often what's preferred in the neurodivergent community. So there's a real barriers to employment for many neurodivergent people. And we're hoping that this toolkit will benefit both employers and neurodivergent people looking for jobs and in jobs.

Yeah, it's also kind of a barrier, but also for those who might have employment and kind of want to be a bit more understood, or employers want to understand their employees a bit better as well.

Yeah, it's also kind of a barrier, but also for those who might have employment and kind of want to be a bit more understood, or employers want to understand their employees a bit better as well.

100%. That's a really great question. Yeah, absolutely. So the great thing about the toolkit is we've designed it so that there's some information about neurodiversity in there, some information about talking about neurodiversity in case people share that they're neurodivergent in the workplace. And then there's some information about recruitment and job ads, but also information about supporting people on the job as well. So kind of at all stages of that recruitment to employment cycle.

100%. That's a really great question. Yeah, absolutely. So the great thing about the toolkit is we've designed it so that there's some information about neurodiversity in there, some information about talking about neurodiversity in case people share that they're neurodivergent in the workplace. And then there's some information about recruitment and job ads, but also information about supporting people on the job as well. So kind of at all stages of that recruitment to employment cycle.

Yeah, I don't want to go too much off into the weeds, but in a sense like this is maybe something that is happening more in more recent or maybe decades that I guess as we become a bit more enlightened, you know, people can talk about this and not feel like they need to hide it as well.

Yeah, I don't want to go too much off into the weeds, but in a sense like this is maybe something that is happening more in more recent or maybe decades that I guess as we become a bit more enlightened, you know, people can talk about this and not feel like they need to hide it as well.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that there's more awareness. So there are some more people being diagnosed. For example, I was only diagnosed as an ADHD or a few years ago, and that was after I got my PhD in psychology. And so some people are starting to be diagnosed more frequently. There's more awareness of what these identities or conditions look like in adulthood. And what's really nice, though, is that people are starting to be aware of of issues and starting to feel more comfortable learning and talking about these issues in the workplace. So I see it as a really positive thing that neurodiversity is kind of in the spotlight at the moment, particularly with regard to employment, because it means there's a real willingness to to learn and engage in discussion instead of kind of feeling like we can't talk about it.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that there's more awareness. So there are some more people being diagnosed. For example, I was only diagnosed as an ADHD or a few years ago, and that was after I got my PhD in psychology. And so some people are starting to be diagnosed more frequently. There's more awareness of what these identities or conditions look like in adulthood. And what's really nice, though, is that people are starting to be aware of of issues and starting to feel more comfortable learning and talking about these issues in the workplace. So I see it as a really positive thing that neurodiversity is kind of in the spotlight at the moment, particularly with regard to employment, because it means there's a real willingness to to learn and engage in discussion instead of kind of feeling like we can't talk about it.

Well, I always kind of scratch my head a bit back, like during the week we had the unemployment figures released and it was under four now. And you think, oh, it's virtually full employment. People are saying, well, there's a lot of people with disabilities and not just neurodivergent, but a lot of people with disabilities that want to work but can't get work. So those sort of unemployment numbers are a little bit misleading, aren't they? Yeah.

Well, I always kind of scratch my head a bit back, like during the week we had the unemployment figures released and it was under four now. And you think, oh, it's virtually full employment. People are saying, well, there's a lot of people with disabilities and not just neurodivergent, but a lot of people with disabilities that want to work but can't get work. So those sort of unemployment numbers are a little bit misleading, aren't they? Yeah.

You're right. The, um, we don't have a really good sense of the number of neurodivergent people who are employed. But the recent, most recent data, to my knowledge, for at least autistic adults, it's only about 27% of autistic adults are employed, which is really low. So we'd love it if this toolkit could somehow, um, improve those numbers. And we hope it will. We hope it it will improve employers ability to advertise jobs and induct people in a way that's more supportive and help people stay in jobs as well.

You're right. The, um, we don't have a really good sense of the number of neurodivergent people who are employed. But the recent, most recent data, to my knowledge, for at least autistic adults, it's only about 27% of autistic adults are employed, which is really low. So we'd love it if this toolkit could somehow, um, improve those numbers. And we hope it will. We hope it it will improve employers ability to advertise jobs and induct people in a way that's more supportive and help people stay in jobs as well.

And of course, the irony of is that probably a lot of those people are very, very talented and that talent is being missed out on. So it's a lose lose rather than a win win if you like.

And of course, the irony of is that probably a lot of those people are very, very talented and that talent is being missed out on. So it's a lose lose rather than a win win if you like.

Yeah, that's often what happens because a lot of the challenges that relate to neurodiversity employment are actually often really small or kind of based in small things like communication, misunderstanding or a lack of clarity around the job. So if the employment toolkit really talks about really simple things that are often at no cost, that employers can do for any employee or for their whole team, that would reduce barriers for neurodivergent people in gaining and maintaining employment, but also probably be useful for everyone as well.

Yeah, that's often what happens because a lot of the challenges that relate to neurodiversity employment are actually often really small or kind of based in small things like communication, misunderstanding or a lack of clarity around the job. So if the employment toolkit really talks about really simple things that are often at no cost, that employers can do for any employee or for their whole team, that would reduce barriers for neurodivergent people in gaining and maintaining employment, but also probably be useful for everyone as well.

Well, that's a great point, isn't it? Because I guess it's got wider applications, which is often the thing with many of these issues when it comes to accessibility or inclusion. Absolutely. Can we open up the toolkit and kind of peek what's in it?

Well, that's a great point, isn't it? Because I guess it's got wider applications, which is often the thing with many of these issues when it comes to accessibility or inclusion. Absolutely. Can we open up the toolkit and kind of peek what's in it?

Yeah, sure. Please do. So it's available on the Victorian Public Sector Commission website. It's developed for employers in the Victorian public sector. There's over 300,000 employers and employees in the Victorian public sector, which is awesome, but it's freely available for anyone to use and look at, so it could be effectively used by anyone.

Yeah, sure. Please do. So it's available on the Victorian Public Sector Commission website. It's developed for employers in the Victorian public sector. There's over 300,000 employers and employees in the Victorian public sector, which is awesome, but it's freely available for anyone to use and look at, so it could be effectively used by anyone.

Yeah, fantastic. Well, obviously very, very important that it's circulated widely. So as many people have access to it as possible, what about in terms of um, uh, like kind of being a live document, if I can put it that way, there's kind of always work going into it. I mean, this is the finished product or is it this.

Yeah, fantastic. Well, obviously very, very important that it's circulated widely. So as many people have access to it as possible, what about in terms of um, uh, like kind of being a live document, if I can put it that way, there's kind of always work going into it. I mean, this is the finished product or is it this.

Is the finished product. I guess we could, um, potentially update it in future. But we did try to develop it in a way that it shouldn't need too much updating. So we've worked really hard over the past few years. We were a neurodiverse team working with the Epsrc, but we also consulted with many neurodivergent people. So people with relevant lived experience, people who were employers of neurodivergent people, HR professionals, organisational psychology professionals, Professional psychologists who work with autistic adults. The academic literature. We also went to social media to see what people were talking about. We read books by advocates. We went to conferences and presentations to learn about any unpublished research, so we're hoping that it stays up to date for quite a while. And there's an acknowledgment style on the toolkit, too, so that people can see those who did consent to being acknowledged for their input and their wonderful contributions are listed there, too.

Is the finished product. I guess we could, um, potentially update it in future. But we did try to develop it in a way that it shouldn't need too much updating. So we've worked really hard over the past few years. We were a neurodiverse team working with the Epsrc, but we also consulted with many neurodivergent people. So people with relevant lived experience, people who were employers of neurodivergent people, HR professionals, organisational psychology professionals, Professional psychologists who work with autistic adults. The academic literature. We also went to social media to see what people were talking about. We read books by advocates. We went to conferences and presentations to learn about any unpublished research, so we're hoping that it stays up to date for quite a while. And there's an acknowledgment style on the toolkit, too, so that people can see those who did consent to being acknowledged for their input and their wonderful contributions are listed there, too.

So at the beginning it was well researched, and you've just given us a bit of an idea of how well it was a research. That's fantastic. What about as far as people coming forward to be part of it? Did you find somewhere a little bit reluctant? But once they got involved, they were sort of very much free flowing with with their input.

So at the beginning it was well researched, and you've just given us a bit of an idea of how well it was a research. That's fantastic. What about as far as people coming forward to be part of it? Did you find somewhere a little bit reluctant? But once they got involved, they were sort of very much free flowing with with their input.

Not at all. Actually, I think that, um, people were really keen to be involved, which is great, but it also, um, it says something about the passion of people wanting to be involved. And you can probably tell from the way I talk about it, I'm really passionate about this area and it's.

Not at all. Actually, I think that, um, people were really keen to be involved, which is great, but it also, um, it says something about the passion of people wanting to be involved. And you can probably tell from the way I talk about it, I'm really passionate about this area and it's.

Not, I think up on that right now.

Not, I think up on that right now.

But so yeah, real joy and a privilege to develop this toolkit with the PSA in collaboration with them. But no, we found that people we had a lot, a lot of people willing to provide their time and their input that we were grateful for, and we did. We had no trouble finding people who were willing to be involved.

But so yeah, real joy and a privilege to develop this toolkit with the PSA in collaboration with them. But no, we found that people we had a lot, a lot of people willing to provide their time and their input that we were grateful for, and we did. We had no trouble finding people who were willing to be involved.

So it's kind of out there already. Is that the sort of the situation?

So it's kind of out there already. Is that the sort of the situation?

Yeah, absolutely. So it's available on the Victorian Public Sector Commission website. It was released on November the 29th and advertised through the Victorian public sector. But it's awesome that you've asked us to talk about it today so that we can kind of spread the word and get it out there, given, um, you know, anyone can use it and people might not be aware it's out there.

Yeah, absolutely. So it's available on the Victorian Public Sector Commission website. It was released on November the 29th and advertised through the Victorian public sector. But it's awesome that you've asked us to talk about it today so that we can kind of spread the word and get it out there, given, um, you know, anyone can use it and people might not be aware it's out there.

Now, Becky, you might not be aware of this, or maybe you are, that there's more than just Victoria in Australia, that there are other states and communities and territories. What about, in all seriousness, other states or um, the sort of information being made more freely available and indeed, of course, not just the public sector sector.

Now, Becky, you might not be aware of this, or maybe you are, that there's more than just Victoria in Australia, that there are other states and communities and territories. What about, in all seriousness, other states or um, the sort of information being made more freely available and indeed, of course, not just the public sector sector.

You're right. So that's a that's a really great point. So it is available on the Victorian Public Sector Commission website, but it's freely, publicly available for anyone to use. So we would encourage anyone in any state and territory to look at it, to use it. They can all access it and none of it is Victoria specific. There are a couple links in there that will be relevant, perhaps to those in the Victorian public sector, but the resource itself is developed in a way that could be useful for anyone worldwide.

You're right. So that's a that's a really great point. So it is available on the Victorian Public Sector Commission website, but it's freely, publicly available for anyone to use. So we would encourage anyone in any state and territory to look at it, to use it. They can all access it and none of it is Victoria specific. There are a couple links in there that will be relevant, perhaps to those in the Victorian public sector, but the resource itself is developed in a way that could be useful for anyone worldwide.

And what about that? Uh, uh, sort of, um, status of it, if you like, in terms of other other countries, other states, other, uh, potential employees having this sort of information. Is this a bit of a first?

And what about that? Uh, uh, sort of, um, status of it, if you like, in terms of other other countries, other states, other, uh, potential employees having this sort of information. Is this a bit of a first?

Yeah, it's my understanding.

Yeah, it's my understanding.

It's certainly a first in Australia, if not a first in the world. I've kind of been working in this space for a while, and I've identified a need for this kind of resource, so I'd love to be wrong. I'd love if there were other resources out there, because I think they're needed, but I don't think there are. I think this is certainly an Australian first, if not a world first, which is a real privilege to be part of that. Um, really good to have it out there.

It's certainly a first in Australia, if not a first in the world. I've kind of been working in this space for a while, and I've identified a need for this kind of resource, so I'd love to be wrong. I'd love if there were other resources out there, because I think they're needed, but I don't think there are. I think this is certainly an Australian first, if not a world first, which is a real privilege to be part of that. Um, really good to have it out there.

We're rapidly running out of time. But I have to ask, what was it like being diagnosed kind of after your PhD? Did you kind of think, well, I wish this had happened before or it is what it is. And you kind of, you know, life moves on.

We're rapidly running out of time. But I have to ask, what was it like being diagnosed kind of after your PhD? Did you kind of think, well, I wish this had happened before or it is what it is. And you kind of, you know, life moves on.

I do, in a way, but it's actually been the most useful thing I've ever learned about myself, because it really helps me understand how I work, why I'm so passionate about certain things, why I have trouble with other certain things. Um, it's been very useful for me to understand a bit more about who I am, and I can bring my full self to work, which is great.

I do, in a way, but it's actually been the most useful thing I've ever learned about myself, because it really helps me understand how I work, why I'm so passionate about certain things, why I have trouble with other certain things. Um, it's been very useful for me to understand a bit more about who I am, and I can bring my full self to work, which is great.

Well, people.

Well, people.

Can get more information. What we might do. We put up a show, notes about the program, and we can also, perhaps if you're able to send me a link or send some. In fact, I think I might have that anyway. Uh, send it put put the link up with our show notes so people can go there and access it, because we go around Australia and of course around the world with podcasts etc., so people can have access to it, which has got to be a good thing. And you said freely available and you mean free as in no cost.

Can get more information. What we might do. We put up a show, notes about the program, and we can also, perhaps if you're able to send me a link or send some. In fact, I think I might have that anyway. Uh, send it put put the link up with our show notes so people can go there and access it, because we go around Australia and of course around the world with podcasts etc., so people can have access to it, which has got to be a good thing. And you said freely available and you mean free as in no cost.

That's right.

That's right.

No cost. Freely available. It's just available on the website. Anyone can access it worldwide and access the whole toolkit. You can download it as a document as well, or you can just use it through the website. Yeah. And hopefully people will see it and see that it's a, you know, really small changes can make such a huge and positive difference.

No cost. Freely available. It's just available on the website. Anyone can access it worldwide and access the whole toolkit. You can download it as a document as well, or you can just use it through the website. Yeah. And hopefully people will see it and see that it's a, you know, really small changes can make such a huge and positive difference.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a great note to end on. Beck well done. What's up your sleeve next?

That's a great note to end on. Beck well done. What's up your sleeve next?

Oh gosh.

Oh gosh.

That's such a great question Peter. I'm not sure. I've had a few big projects this year. I think it's time to kind of stop and do some planning before I move on to my next project.

That's such a great question Peter. I'm not sure. I've had a few big projects this year. I think it's time to kind of stop and do some planning before I move on to my next project.

Well, I.

Well, I.

Rest and then some planning, perhaps.

Rest and then some planning, perhaps.

That's right. Yeah, absolutely. Good call. Yeah.

That's right. Yeah, absolutely. Good call. Yeah.

But great to talk to you. Thank you so much. And congratulations on the initiative. Let's hope that. Well, I'm sure many people have already benefited from it just in the few days it's been out there. And many more do. So thank you for spending some time with us.

But great to talk to you. Thank you so much. And congratulations on the initiative. Let's hope that. Well, I'm sure many people have already benefited from it just in the few days it's been out there. And many more do. So thank you for spending some time with us.

Thank you so much for helping us spread the word. Gosh, we really appreciate it. Thanks for your.

Thank you so much for helping us spread the word. Gosh, we really appreciate it. Thanks for your.

Time.

Time.

That's Doctor Rebecca Flower from Trobe University with some wonderful news for people who might be neurodivergent and their toolkit being rolled out at this stage for for the public service. But of course it's freely available to everyone and we'll put details about that up on our show notes.

That's Doctor Rebecca Flower from Trobe University with some wonderful news for people who might be neurodivergent and their toolkit being rolled out at this stage for for the public service. But of course it's freely available to everyone and we'll put details about that up on our show notes.