Well. I'm really delighted Workclear project made me whole. He said behavioral support practitioner and Amy's with us. Amy. Thanks so much for your time.

Well. I'm really delighted Workclear project made me whole. He said behavioral support practitioner and Amy's with us. Amy. Thanks so much for your time.

Hi, Peter, thanks so much for having me on now.

Hi, Peter, thanks so much for having me on now.

Well, we've got saw. You've got some rather disturbing findings regarding some stuff that's going on in the education area.

Well, we've got saw. You've got some rather disturbing findings regarding some stuff that's going on in the education area.

Yeah I do yeah. And it's, it's one of those things that I've known has not just me, but quite a few people that I work with have known that these things have been happening for a good long while and at the same time, so many things have been tried to to finish them off. And I mean, I just I'm not getting anywhere. So I, I needed to to raise the alarm to the, to the community. And when I've spoken about what I know is happening in some of our schools, uh, with kids with disabilities, it kind of shocking. It is shocking for people. And I feel like people need to know what's happening in order for things to change.

Yeah I do yeah. And it's, it's one of those things that I've known has not just me, but quite a few people that I work with have known that these things have been happening for a good long while and at the same time, so many things have been tried to to finish them off. And I mean, I just I'm not getting anywhere. So I, I needed to to raise the alarm to the, to the community. And when I've spoken about what I know is happening in some of our schools, uh, with kids with disabilities, it kind of shocking. It is shocking for people. And I feel like people need to know what's happening in order for things to change.

Are people in denial or are, you know, why? Why aren't people sort of kind of sitting up and taking notice?

Are people in denial or are, you know, why? Why aren't people sort of kind of sitting up and taking notice?

Well, when you think about kids in cages, people kind of take a second look and they go, what? What do you mean, kids in cages? You know, in my work, I'm a behavior going to work places, go into the community and support people with disabilities who struggle with communication. And so the way some of them communicate is by, um, in some ways behaving in ways that other people perceive as unsafe. And so, you know, my my job, my whole sector, my industry exists within the NDIS to prevent and eliminate the use of what we call restrictive practices, um, which are infringements on human rights. So when you think about schools, you don't think about schools operating with restrictive practices. You think about schools being safe places. So I think that there is a little bit of, um, a denial or othering. I call it othering because it's, you know, even the comments since the story ran, um, in the media around this was all these, these children belong in special schools. Well, I to say this, but this is happening in schools for specific purposes where kids with profound disabilities require the most amount of support. This is where I've been in cages with kids. So I think that if we see things that are really, um, unhelpful and shocking and, you know, really hard to understand, the natural thing is to say, well, it can't be happening like that. I've been in I've been in these enclosures with my clients, and I've felt what that feels like. and it's like being in a cell, in a prison cell. It's a horrible feeling. So my job, I guess, is to bring awareness that this is happening, that it shouldn't be, that it's a direct contravention on the human rights of these people with disabilities and children, and it's also a direct contravention of to the child safety principles that the whole country has to adhere to. So for it to happen in schools, I just think schools need to be brought from a policy perspective into line.

Well, when you think about kids in cages, people kind of take a second look and they go, what? What do you mean, kids in cages? You know, in my work, I'm a behavior going to work places, go into the community and support people with disabilities who struggle with communication. And so the way some of them communicate is by, um, in some ways behaving in ways that other people perceive as unsafe. And so, you know, my my job, my whole sector, my industry exists within the NDIS to prevent and eliminate the use of what we call restrictive practices, um, which are infringements on human rights. So when you think about schools, you don't think about schools operating with restrictive practices. You think about schools being safe places. So I think that there is a little bit of, um, a denial or othering. I call it othering because it's, you know, even the comments since the story ran, um, in the media around this was all these, these children belong in special schools. Well, I to say this, but this is happening in schools for specific purposes where kids with profound disabilities require the most amount of support. This is where I've been in cages with kids. So I think that if we see things that are really, um, unhelpful and shocking and, you know, really hard to understand, the natural thing is to say, well, it can't be happening like that. I've been in I've been in these enclosures with my clients, and I've felt what that feels like. and it's like being in a cell, in a prison cell. It's a horrible feeling. So my job, I guess, is to bring awareness that this is happening, that it shouldn't be, that it's a direct contravention on the human rights of these people with disabilities and children, and it's also a direct contravention of to the child safety principles that the whole country has to adhere to. So for it to happen in schools, I just think schools need to be brought from a policy perspective into line.

But you're talking about maybe kids being denied communication devices, not being allowed to go to the toilet, not being able to get fed or watered. I mean, is this really Australia?

But you're talking about maybe kids being denied communication devices, not being allowed to go to the toilet, not being able to get fed or watered. I mean, is this really Australia?

Well, it, it it shouldn't be. It absolutely shouldn't be. I've observed children and um so for example the behaviour is misinterpreted. So their behaviour is they are cranky, they're frustrated, they're not able to access something on their communication device at that moment to communicate what they want to say. So they pick up that device and they throw it across the room. They get frustrated, they throw it across the room, and then they're moved into an enclosed space. So what? And the enclosed space is just a concrete slab. This is what I've seen and what I've experienced with these kids. A concrete slab, brick walls, and, you know, all walls of bars, basically. Like like, um, metal bars. There's no toilets, there's no fresh water. There's no water bottle there. There's no food, there's no toys, there's no matting. And they're not given the communication device to say, hey, I'm calm now, can I come back into class? And that's what I meant when I said that they're denied, that they're put in a place that's completely secluded and alone and segregated, and then they're not. And a lot of these young people that I work with are non-speaking, and so they rely on tools and devices to communicate, support their communication. And then in these spaces, they're not allowed to access them because the perception is that they're being unsafe and they're throwing things across the room. And so that's dangerous. So we're going to take that away from them to to protect them and to protect other people. But I don't think that that's the answer.

Well, it, it it shouldn't be. It absolutely shouldn't be. I've observed children and um so for example the behaviour is misinterpreted. So their behaviour is they are cranky, they're frustrated, they're not able to access something on their communication device at that moment to communicate what they want to say. So they pick up that device and they throw it across the room. They get frustrated, they throw it across the room, and then they're moved into an enclosed space. So what? And the enclosed space is just a concrete slab. This is what I've seen and what I've experienced with these kids. A concrete slab, brick walls, and, you know, all walls of bars, basically. Like like, um, metal bars. There's no toilets, there's no fresh water. There's no water bottle there. There's no food, there's no toys, there's no matting. And they're not given the communication device to say, hey, I'm calm now, can I come back into class? And that's what I meant when I said that they're denied, that they're put in a place that's completely secluded and alone and segregated, and then they're not. And a lot of these young people that I work with are non-speaking, and so they rely on tools and devices to communicate, support their communication. And then in these spaces, they're not allowed to access them because the perception is that they're being unsafe and they're throwing things across the room. And so that's dangerous. So we're going to take that away from them to to protect them and to protect other people. But I don't think that that's the answer.

What is the answer?

What is the answer?

I think that this is not an easy fix on any part. When you have a culture that believes in separation and segregation and othering. That's the first thing I want to say about that. But the second thing is when you have teachers that are being given one subject at university in their pre teacher training on disabilities, you have new educators coming into the workforce that are underprepared. That's the second thing. The third thing is you have a policy that allows educators, especially here in New South Wales. And I know across the country there are different versions of this policy that allows for teachers to do this to children, to place them in seclusion, to place them in enclosures like the one I've described for safety and protection. And there is a community ideology that says that that seems to be for the, the, the greater good. And I have a real problem with that, because we're not actually getting to the crux of what's causing this child to behave in this distress based way anyway. So I don't have an answer in terms of how to fix it. What I do know is that that when you've got a policy that allows it to happen, it's not going to change. And when you have a policy that encourages this othering, this segregation, we're not actually going to encourage innovation and creativity and relationship put in the fact that we've got really, really, um, stretched teachers who are time poor, resource poor, and really tired. We have a really strong unionized ideology of, well, I don't come to work to get hit. And so I'm not going to tolerate this behavior in my classroom. Dot, dot, dot. And I was a teacher. I've been an educator for 20 years. So this this is my world that I've spent my career in. And I know that we need to do better, but I know that there's a multitude of different places we need to do better in. But I think that it's cheaper and it's easier to put a kid in a cage than it is to fix a systemic problem and a policy problem.

I think that this is not an easy fix on any part. When you have a culture that believes in separation and segregation and othering. That's the first thing I want to say about that. But the second thing is when you have teachers that are being given one subject at university in their pre teacher training on disabilities, you have new educators coming into the workforce that are underprepared. That's the second thing. The third thing is you have a policy that allows educators, especially here in New South Wales. And I know across the country there are different versions of this policy that allows for teachers to do this to children, to place them in seclusion, to place them in enclosures like the one I've described for safety and protection. And there is a community ideology that says that that seems to be for the, the, the greater good. And I have a real problem with that, because we're not actually getting to the crux of what's causing this child to behave in this distress based way anyway. So I don't have an answer in terms of how to fix it. What I do know is that that when you've got a policy that allows it to happen, it's not going to change. And when you have a policy that encourages this othering, this segregation, we're not actually going to encourage innovation and creativity and relationship put in the fact that we've got really, really, um, stretched teachers who are time poor, resource poor, and really tired. We have a really strong unionized ideology of, well, I don't come to work to get hit. And so I'm not going to tolerate this behavior in my classroom. Dot, dot, dot. And I was a teacher. I've been an educator for 20 years. So this this is my world that I've spent my career in. And I know that we need to do better, but I know that there's a multitude of different places we need to do better in. But I think that it's cheaper and it's easier to put a kid in a cage than it is to fix a systemic problem and a policy problem.

I mean, you're much more qualified than my. But I'm sure that this kind of, uh, quote unquote treatment would only accentuate bad behavior, wouldn't it? Or so-called bad behavior.

I mean, you're much more qualified than my. But I'm sure that this kind of, uh, quote unquote treatment would only accentuate bad behavior, wouldn't it? Or so-called bad behavior.

Well, I believe very much that if you treat a child or anyone for that matter, with disrespect, without relationship and without kindness and compassion or understanding, then you're not going to be met with a good outcome. And that that's for any human being. We know that all the research indicates that when you treat someone with respect, with dignity and with compassion, you're more likely to get a better outcome and get a quicker resolution. So I would agree with you, Peter. You know, all of us as human beings, we fought for human rights for a really long time, you know, and and I think that it's really important that we remember that this fight is not over. I spoke this morning to a woman who read the story in WA and Western Australia, and she called me in tears and she said, Amy, thank you so much for shining a light. She said, I have 29 parents in addition to myself here in WA that have got complaint, that we've made complaints, that we've made complaints to the school, to the school director, to the NDIS, and no one seems to be able to give us clear answers. We've made complaints to the Human Rights Commission, and we're still waiting to hear back on the investigation and where that sits, she said. In the meantime, what do we do with our kids? What do we do with what we know is happening? But we're locked out of the system because we're putting our heads up. And you know, Peter, the week that I released this story was a very lonely week for me because I have a number of clients and I have a number of parents that I've worked with for years, three, four years, and they were so afraid to put their name to this story. And I have images, I have photographs I wasn't allowed or I wasn't encouraged to promote them or to to share them, because in my rural and regional community, this these schools are the only options available to these clients. And so when you poke your head up, there's all the chance that you can get your head effectively cut off in terms of being someone who says, no, this isn't okay, this isn't okay. But my parents, who are afraid there's such a power imbalance between big systems like being, you know, Department of Education versus parents saying, I don't accept you putting my child in an enclosure. And I've been in meetings where parents have tried to advocate for their children who can't speak. Parents have been met with the executives or the principals or even departmental representatives who have said, well, we're allowed to do this according to our policy and thank you for your opinion. But unfortunately, we have to do what's best for all of the children in our classroom, which in this case is putting your child in enclosure up to nine times a day. And that is what's happening. If we want to deny that's happening, then it'll never change. And I have the I have a three year old daughter who's autistic. She's got to go to school in a couple of years. And it really frightens me knowing that if she goes to school is this could this happen to her? And the answer is unequivocally yes, it can. It can happen to any child, any child, if they demonstrate behaviors that a teacher with very limited knowledge around these particular behaviors of concern and how to manage them. If the quickest and the easiest way to manage that is get this kid in a cage, then that's what they're going to do every time.

Well, I believe very much that if you treat a child or anyone for that matter, with disrespect, without relationship and without kindness and compassion or understanding, then you're not going to be met with a good outcome. And that that's for any human being. We know that all the research indicates that when you treat someone with respect, with dignity and with compassion, you're more likely to get a better outcome and get a quicker resolution. So I would agree with you, Peter. You know, all of us as human beings, we fought for human rights for a really long time, you know, and and I think that it's really important that we remember that this fight is not over. I spoke this morning to a woman who read the story in WA and Western Australia, and she called me in tears and she said, Amy, thank you so much for shining a light. She said, I have 29 parents in addition to myself here in WA that have got complaint, that we've made complaints, that we've made complaints to the school, to the school director, to the NDIS, and no one seems to be able to give us clear answers. We've made complaints to the Human Rights Commission, and we're still waiting to hear back on the investigation and where that sits, she said. In the meantime, what do we do with our kids? What do we do with what we know is happening? But we're locked out of the system because we're putting our heads up. And you know, Peter, the week that I released this story was a very lonely week for me because I have a number of clients and I have a number of parents that I've worked with for years, three, four years, and they were so afraid to put their name to this story. And I have images, I have photographs I wasn't allowed or I wasn't encouraged to promote them or to to share them, because in my rural and regional community, this these schools are the only options available to these clients. And so when you poke your head up, there's all the chance that you can get your head effectively cut off in terms of being someone who says, no, this isn't okay, this isn't okay. But my parents, who are afraid there's such a power imbalance between big systems like being, you know, Department of Education versus parents saying, I don't accept you putting my child in an enclosure. And I've been in meetings where parents have tried to advocate for their children who can't speak. Parents have been met with the executives or the principals or even departmental representatives who have said, well, we're allowed to do this according to our policy and thank you for your opinion. But unfortunately, we have to do what's best for all of the children in our classroom, which in this case is putting your child in enclosure up to nine times a day. And that is what's happening. If we want to deny that's happening, then it'll never change. And I have the I have a three year old daughter who's autistic. She's got to go to school in a couple of years. And it really frightens me knowing that if she goes to school is this could this happen to her? And the answer is unequivocally yes, it can. It can happen to any child, any child, if they demonstrate behaviors that a teacher with very limited knowledge around these particular behaviors of concern and how to manage them. If the quickest and the easiest way to manage that is get this kid in a cage, then that's what they're going to do every time.

I mean, the easiest thing I could ask you is, you know, what about the government's kind of response to this state and federal? I mean, you talked about, uh, Education Department officials, if you like. But what about ministers?

I mean, the easiest thing I could ask you is, you know, what about the government's kind of response to this state and federal? I mean, you talked about, uh, Education Department officials, if you like. But what about ministers?

Look, my next port of call, um, and especially after speaking with this mum this morning, I'm even more resolute. I'm not on some kind of crusade. I am just I can't rest knowing this could happen to my daughter. I can't rest knowing that this is already happening to my clients. So my next port of call is to, um. I'm currently drafting an open letter to um Minister Jason Clare, our federal Minister for education. I'm also drafting a letter to Senator Jordon Steele-john, because I don't really like to know if there could be a Senate inquiry into the practices of seclusion and restrictive practices that are happening in schools, and that's across Australia. We have a national, the NDIS, who I am working for. That's who my effective boss is. They say one thing. According to the NDIS, restrictive practices must be authorised according to each state and territories Legislative framework. Authorisation framework. There are checks and balances. There are safeguards that go through with the NDIS and that's where I in my world is in schools. They are not there. There's no jurisdiction across NDIS. You've got multiple state and federal systems that don't talk to each other. And that's a problem because if you what's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander. So if you, for example, it's against the law in New South Wales to put your child in their bedroom and lock and close the door. That's against the law. Against the law to put any child in seclusion. So why is a teacher allowed to do it in a school? Not just allowed. There are actually policies allowing them and and almost encouraging them in a way to do that. So in terms of the next steps, you're right. The the federal and state government and and representatives, our parliamentarians need to know this happening. They need to not bury heads in the sand. They need to not be afraid of asking questions of our education department and say, there's got to be other ways. And if that isn't sort of what it needs to happen, then at least at the very minimum, the millions and millions and millions of dollars that have been invested into Dis. We really need to make sure it is an insurance scheme for a reason. We need to make sure that it's not being wasted by school systems that are making and exacerbating problems in a school setting. And that is, you know, when things are left unchecked. We had a national Royal Commission a couple of years ago into the abuse and neglect of people with disabilities, and I'm wondering what's going to happen now. We've got a big review into the NDIS and it's got lots of media attention okay. Absolutely. We need to make sure people are doing the right thing. But who's got their eyes on education? Who's got their eyes on what's happening with these kids in school who don't speak, many of whom have significant and profound cognitive disabilities? Who's advocating for them?

Look, my next port of call, um, and especially after speaking with this mum this morning, I'm even more resolute. I'm not on some kind of crusade. I am just I can't rest knowing this could happen to my daughter. I can't rest knowing that this is already happening to my clients. So my next port of call is to, um. I'm currently drafting an open letter to um Minister Jason Clare, our federal Minister for education. I'm also drafting a letter to Senator Jordon Steele-john, because I don't really like to know if there could be a Senate inquiry into the practices of seclusion and restrictive practices that are happening in schools, and that's across Australia. We have a national, the NDIS, who I am working for. That's who my effective boss is. They say one thing. According to the NDIS, restrictive practices must be authorised according to each state and territories Legislative framework. Authorisation framework. There are checks and balances. There are safeguards that go through with the NDIS and that's where I in my world is in schools. They are not there. There's no jurisdiction across NDIS. You've got multiple state and federal systems that don't talk to each other. And that's a problem because if you what's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander. So if you, for example, it's against the law in New South Wales to put your child in their bedroom and lock and close the door. That's against the law. Against the law to put any child in seclusion. So why is a teacher allowed to do it in a school? Not just allowed. There are actually policies allowing them and and almost encouraging them in a way to do that. So in terms of the next steps, you're right. The the federal and state government and and representatives, our parliamentarians need to know this happening. They need to not bury heads in the sand. They need to not be afraid of asking questions of our education department and say, there's got to be other ways. And if that isn't sort of what it needs to happen, then at least at the very minimum, the millions and millions and millions of dollars that have been invested into Dis. We really need to make sure it is an insurance scheme for a reason. We need to make sure that it's not being wasted by school systems that are making and exacerbating problems in a school setting. And that is, you know, when things are left unchecked. We had a national Royal Commission a couple of years ago into the abuse and neglect of people with disabilities, and I'm wondering what's going to happen now. We've got a big review into the NDIS and it's got lots of media attention okay. Absolutely. We need to make sure people are doing the right thing. But who's got their eyes on education? Who's got their eyes on what's happening with these kids in school who don't speak, many of whom have significant and profound cognitive disabilities? Who's advocating for them?

I guess in a sense, it's kind of a microcosm or a bit of a reflection on some of the stuff we've heard about inside group homes and that sort of stuff, some of the behavior in those sort of adult settings, if I can say.

I guess in a sense, it's kind of a microcosm or a bit of a reflection on some of the stuff we've heard about inside group homes and that sort of stuff, some of the behavior in those sort of adult settings, if I can say.

Absolutely it is. And, you know, I think the biggest challenge that I have is I am a voice that's trying. Sometimes I feel like I'm shouting into the wind a little bit and and again, I'm not on that crusade, but it's it's got to be it's got to be got to be doing better than this. We've learned so much from the past. Poor treatment of people with disabilities. We've learned from them. We've listened to them. We have to listen to them now when they're saying to us, this is happening to us in schools. And I think that it's really important that if we deny their voice and we deny change and action, we're never going to make progress as a country and we're never, ever going to achieve what we're trying to achieve with the NDIS, which is promoting the quality of life of all people, but particularly those people who really, really need that additional support in whatever realm that looks like. You know, by doing what I'm doing, I risk not being allowed or not being invited or not being given access into schools. Now because I am seen as a potential whistleblower. That was a risk I took when I spoke about this story, and I had spoken to, um, people in the department. I've spoken to principal, multiple principals, spoken multiple teachers. This isn't about teachers or their quality, or it's about a system that's not working. And if it's working, then why are these kids being put back in cages? The cages. They're not criminals. I've. I've been to zoos and enclosures are bigger than these enclosures. These these cages in schools, you know, I mean, please.

Absolutely it is. And, you know, I think the biggest challenge that I have is I am a voice that's trying. Sometimes I feel like I'm shouting into the wind a little bit and and again, I'm not on that crusade, but it's it's got to be it's got to be got to be doing better than this. We've learned so much from the past. Poor treatment of people with disabilities. We've learned from them. We've listened to them. We have to listen to them now when they're saying to us, this is happening to us in schools. And I think that it's really important that if we deny their voice and we deny change and action, we're never going to make progress as a country and we're never, ever going to achieve what we're trying to achieve with the NDIS, which is promoting the quality of life of all people, but particularly those people who really, really need that additional support in whatever realm that looks like. You know, by doing what I'm doing, I risk not being allowed or not being invited or not being given access into schools. Now because I am seen as a potential whistleblower. That was a risk I took when I spoke about this story, and I had spoken to, um, people in the department. I've spoken to principal, multiple principals, spoken multiple teachers. This isn't about teachers or their quality, or it's about a system that's not working. And if it's working, then why are these kids being put back in cages? The cages. They're not criminals. I've. I've been to zoos and enclosures are bigger than these enclosures. These these cages in schools, you know, I mean, please.

Sorry, sorry. We'll have to leave it there. We're we're way over time. Um, are you happy for us to put your email address up on our Facebook page? If, uh, there's a parent that might want to contact you as well. I know you. You've put yourself out there. I mean, um, you know, one more contact probably isn't going to make it any worse for you a little bit. No, no.

Sorry, sorry. We'll have to leave it there. We're we're way over time. Um, are you happy for us to put your email address up on our Facebook page? If, uh, there's a parent that might want to contact you as well. I know you. You've put yourself out there. I mean, um, you know, one more contact probably isn't going to make it any worse for you a little bit. No, no.

Actually, I'd really appreciate that, because there's a reporter from the SBS who is very interested in expanding the investigation into this story, and he is seeking other people who may have experienced what I've spoken about. So I'd be very happy to take on, um, any of those referrals and refer them over to this reporter, because, again, it's something that we're trying to draw attention to and get get the attention of the ministers to actually at least ask the questions.

Actually, I'd really appreciate that, because there's a reporter from the SBS who is very interested in expanding the investigation into this story, and he is seeking other people who may have experienced what I've spoken about. So I'd be very happy to take on, um, any of those referrals and refer them over to this reporter, because, again, it's something that we're trying to draw attention to and get get the attention of the ministers to actually at least ask the questions.

I behold that who said the passionate advocate and an education specialist with some very disturbing thoughts about some of the things that Amy seen and that have been reported to Amy.

I behold that who said the passionate advocate and an education specialist with some very disturbing thoughts about some of the things that Amy seen and that have been reported to Amy.