Inside sources, inside sources. America's Voice of reason. Boyd Matheson on Utah's home for elevated conversation, inside sources on KSL News Radio.

Inside sources, inside sources. America's Voice of reason. Boyd Matheson on Utah's home for elevated conversation, inside sources on KSL News Radio.

In the wake of classified leaks,

In the wake of classified leaks,

sloppy handling of classified documents. The Pentagon is reviewing its policies and limiting who has access to classified documents.

sloppy handling of classified documents. The Pentagon is reviewing its policies and limiting who has access to classified documents.

My question is, how do we protect national security without overreacting and actually harming national security? How do we maintain transparency without putting our citizens or our allies at risk? It is a delicate balance. Let's begin

My question is, how do we protect national security without overreacting and actually harming national security? How do we maintain transparency without putting our citizens or our allies at risk? It is a delicate balance. Let's begin

think, you know, the news of the day, think again with Boyd Matheson on K S L News Radio.

think, you know, the news of the day, think again with Boyd Matheson on K S L News Radio.

Of course, there's been a lot of conversations lately about national security. We've gone from files being in former presidents and former vice presidents, homes and, and offices. Uh We've had things uh leak on various websites uh and a whole host of things that we've played out in terms of national security.

Of course, there's been a lot of conversations lately about national security. We've gone from files being in former presidents and former vice presidents, homes and, and offices. Uh We've had things uh leak on various websites uh and a whole host of things that we've played out in terms of national security.

Uh And of course, we want to make sure that we're doing the things that help keep our national security, including how we deal with documents and security issues. And so we're turning uh as always to Ryan Vogel, of course, is uh associate professor and founding director of the Center for National Security Studies and

Uh And of course, we want to make sure that we're doing the things that help keep our national security, including how we deal with documents and security issues. And so we're turning uh as always to Ryan Vogel, of course, is uh associate professor and founding director of the Center for National Security Studies and

National Security Studies Academic program at Utah Valley University. And uh Ryan, we appreciate you joining us today, obviously, uh a lot of talk about national security of late uh but just kind of give us first the, the lay of the land in terms of the all of these uh conversations that are going on. And then let's get to how do we make sure we don't overreact? But how do we make sure we actually protect that national security?

National Security Studies Academic program at Utah Valley University. And uh Ryan, we appreciate you joining us today, obviously, uh a lot of talk about national security of late uh but just kind of give us first the, the lay of the land in terms of the all of these uh conversations that are going on. And then let's get to how do we make sure we don't overreact? But how do we make sure we actually protect that national security?

Yeah, I mean, this is, I think a really important discussion because, you know, you're really balancing the public's interest and the public's right to know certain things with really tough national security issues that depend on, on classification to protect them. You know, we have sources that we rely on out in the world and we have methods that we use in order to gather intelligence and their effectiveness

Yeah, I mean, this is, I think a really important discussion because, you know, you're really balancing the public's interest and the public's right to know certain things with really tough national security issues that depend on, on classification to protect them. You know, we have sources that we rely on out in the world and we have methods that we use in order to gather intelligence and their effectiveness

at getting information so that we can make better decisions and conduct better operations, depends on their secrecy and our ability to hold them secret. So it is really an important discussion and we have different ways of classifying things and different levels of classification. We do try as a government to, you know, only allow access to information for people that have what we call a need to know that information.

at getting information so that we can make better decisions and conduct better operations, depends on their secrecy and our ability to hold them secret. So it is really an important discussion and we have different ways of classifying things and different levels of classification. We do try as a government to, you know, only allow access to information for people that have what we call a need to know that information.

But it is, it is a tricky game because there are so many people that have security clearances and even access to certain kinds of information. And we just have to do the best we can to ensure that

But it is, it is a tricky game because there are so many people that have security clearances and even access to certain kinds of information. And we just have to do the best we can to ensure that

it's, you know, the, the right people and the right process is to protect that information.

it's, you know, the, the right people and the right process is to protect that information.

Yeah, I think that's so vital, right? People who need to have access to that information that they can get it, use it appropriately and that we have the right process to ensure that security, I want to go back to, to something that uh that you said Ryan, that I think is, is really important for us to recognize you talked both in terms of the intelligence itself

Yeah, I think that's so vital, right? People who need to have access to that information that they can get it, use it appropriately and that we have the right process to ensure that security, I want to go back to, to something that uh that you said Ryan, that I think is, is really important for us to recognize you talked both in terms of the intelligence itself

uh as well as the methods. And uh the one thing that I often hear is that the intelligence itself sort of has a a short shelf life uh in terms of being relevant or meaningful or applicable or applicable. Uh But then you have the methods that you alluded to that I think are probably the higher value component in terms of how we go about collecting information, kind of break that down for our listeners.

uh as well as the methods. And uh the one thing that I often hear is that the intelligence itself sort of has a a short shelf life uh in terms of being relevant or meaningful or applicable or applicable. Uh But then you have the methods that you alluded to that I think are probably the higher value component in terms of how we go about collecting information, kind of break that down for our listeners.

Yeah. And that, that, that is generally true that the shelf life of certain pieces of information can be, can be pretty short. I mean, some things can be a little bit longer, but generally speaking,

Yeah. And that, that, that is generally true that the shelf life of certain pieces of information can be, can be pretty short. I mean, some things can be a little bit longer, but generally speaking,

you know, that information. Sure. But just take, for example, if we were listening in on phone calls and the only way that the person could have gotten that information is if they had heard the phone call, that might reveal a method that we were using, or if there were someone that had infiltrated an organization, a terrorist organization or a foreign government

you know, that information. Sure. But just take, for example, if we were listening in on phone calls and the only way that the person could have gotten that information is if they had heard the phone call, that might reveal a method that we were using, or if there were someone that had infiltrated an organization, a terrorist organization or a foreign government

and the only people in the room, you know, were those types of people, you could identify who that source was pretty quickly. So sometimes we have methods or sources that we use for years. And so the effectiveness of that source or method. And really when we're talking about sources, the safety of that person and their families really depends on our ability to maintain that information in a secret classified.

and the only people in the room, you know, were those types of people, you could identify who that source was pretty quickly. So sometimes we have methods or sources that we use for years. And so the effectiveness of that source or method. And really when we're talking about sources, the safety of that person and their families really depends on our ability to maintain that information in a secret classified.

Yeah, that's uh that's so important. We have to, we always have to remember that uh our national security is dependent on a lot of really brave souls and their families who live with that uncertainty and

Yeah, that's uh that's so important. We have to, we always have to remember that uh our national security is dependent on a lot of really brave souls and their families who live with that uncertainty and

risk both nationals and some of our assets and contacts abroad that really are putting themselves in harm's way under the assurance that we're going to protect them. Right? So, you know, we're, we're asking them to do difficult

risk both nationals and some of our assets and contacts abroad that really are putting themselves in harm's way under the assurance that we're going to protect them. Right? So, you know, we're, we're asking them to do difficult

things and challenging things and, and you know, the understanding is that we will protect them and keep them safe.

things and challenging things and, and you know, the understanding is that we will protect them and keep them safe.

Yeah, such an important piece and that trust that we will do that is so vital as well. I I want to go to the other component that you alluded to Ryan, that is the dealing with the, the people who, who needs to have access to this. Uh And then what are the processes for securing that? Uh There's always those levels of clearance and so on. Uh But kind of walk us through because I, I I it feels like there's going to be

Yeah, such an important piece and that trust that we will do that is so vital as well. I I want to go to the other component that you alluded to Ryan, that is the dealing with the, the people who, who needs to have access to this. Uh And then what are the processes for securing that? Uh There's always those levels of clearance and so on. Uh But kind of walk us through because I, I I it feels like there's going to be

uh kind of a pendulum swing on that given some of the, the recent events. How do we make sure we don't uh over course correct on that, which again would inhibit and undermine national security.

uh kind of a pendulum swing on that given some of the, the recent events. How do we make sure we don't uh over course correct on that, which again would inhibit and undermine national security.

Yeah, that and that also is a really important issue and I, I served in the government when

Yeah, that and that also is a really important issue and I, I served in the government when

you know the Snowden leaks happened, the manning leaks happened and I did see some overcorrection in those, in those instances. The thing that's difficult is that you're asking the initial, either collector or author of a document to do a classification, right? To either determine whether it's unclassified, whether it's, you know, confidential or sensitive or whether it's actually classified as a secret, top secret or even

you know the Snowden leaks happened, the manning leaks happened and I did see some overcorrection in those, in those instances. The thing that's difficult is that you're asking the initial, either collector or author of a document to do a classification, right? To either determine whether it's unclassified, whether it's, you know, confidential or sensitive or whether it's actually classified as a secret, top secret or even

um you know, beyond that level. And you know, the, the incentive I think in most cases is to overlay because it's going to protect you. And the thing that you are, you know, that, that you're reviewing. So if it's a source or method and if there's any question at all, the the safer thing for the person to do is to

um you know, beyond that level. And you know, the, the incentive I think in most cases is to overlay because it's going to protect you. And the thing that you are, you know, that, that you're reviewing. So if it's a source or method and if there's any question at all, the the safer thing for the person to do is to

restricted because the consequence of getting it wrong, the other way is more severe, right? And so I think that's the problem is that there's just not a lot of education or training or anything else within the government on how to make that determination. You have a sheet, you know, full of vague ambiguous words and at the end of it, you know, that

restricted because the consequence of getting it wrong, the other way is more severe, right? And so I think that's the problem is that there's just not a lot of education or training or anything else within the government on how to make that determination. You have a sheet, you know, full of vague ambiguous words and at the end of it, you know, that

prosecution awaits you if you unclassify it. So you can see how, you know, that incentive is just built in to overclassification things. And so on the one hand, that's in some ways good because you are erring on the side of caution. But some things that's not necessarily a good thing because you are putting too many things into the classified area that, that should

prosecution awaits you if you unclassify it. So you can see how, you know, that incentive is just built in to overclassification things. And so on the one hand, that's in some ways good because you are erring on the side of caution. But some things that's not necessarily a good thing because you are putting too many things into the classified area that, that should

be probably public or at least, you know, some kind of, uh, variation of unclassified. Yeah.

be probably public or at least, you know, some kind of, uh, variation of unclassified. Yeah.

And so what is the thing you think we ought to be talking about when it comes to these? Obviously, there's a public right to know on some of these things, there's, there's obviously a lot of public intrigue on a host of these things which we shouldn't respond to, uh, intrigue alone is, is not enough to justify it. But what should the conversation be when it comes to a lot of these classified pieces of information?

And so what is the thing you think we ought to be talking about when it comes to these? Obviously, there's a public right to know on some of these things, there's, there's obviously a lot of public intrigue on a host of these things which we shouldn't respond to, uh, intrigue alone is, is not enough to justify it. But what should the conversation be when it comes to a lot of these classified pieces of information?

Well, I think that a good healthy conversation right now would be to really create

Well, I think that a good healthy conversation right now would be to really create

better training and better formulas for how to classify and what level to classify if something reaches a certain threshold of risk or,

better training and better formulas for how to classify and what level to classify if something reaches a certain threshold of risk or,

um, or, you know, some, some kind of harm if it were if it were public, then, you know, that's how you would make that determination of whether it reached a certain level. I think that even within the government, there's just a lot of confusion as to, you know, is this a secret level thing or is this a top secret? Is this a um you know, a more restricted access kind of classification? And so I think that would be helpful. I also think, and I don't know how

um, or, you know, some, some kind of harm if it were if it were public, then, you know, that's how you would make that determination of whether it reached a certain level. I think that even within the government, there's just a lot of confusion as to, you know, is this a secret level thing or is this a top secret? Is this a um you know, a more restricted access kind of classification? And so I think that would be helpful. I also think, and I don't know how

exactly you do this, but if the public understood this better, so maybe this is part of the conversation we're having, we're having right now. But if the public understood better that, you know what we're actually trying to do with classification, it's not just secrecy for secrecy sake, right? It's protecting real things. Um and our success at being able to do things in the future that is really at stake. Um You know, when we're talking about

exactly you do this, but if the public understood this better, so maybe this is part of the conversation we're having, we're having right now. But if the public understood better that, you know what we're actually trying to do with classification, it's not just secrecy for secrecy sake, right? It's protecting real things. Um and our success at being able to do things in the future that is really at stake. Um You know, when we're talking about

a weapon system, it's not just that weapon, it's the technology that produced it that might be used for a future thing, you know, that that could be very important to our national security. So I think, you know, it's, it's both, it's the government really understanding and, and providing the training for their people on how to responsibly do intelligence and classification process. And

a weapon system, it's not just that weapon, it's the technology that produced it that might be used for a future thing, you know, that that could be very important to our national security. So I think, you know, it's, it's both, it's the government really understanding and, and providing the training for their people on how to responsibly do intelligence and classification process. And

in the public really having an understanding of why, you know, why we're doing these things. And then even, you know, more access to the materials that are released through the Freedom of Information Act and you know, and some of the declassification processes, I think all that would be a healthy discussion to have.

in the public really having an understanding of why, you know, why we're doing these things. And then even, you know, more access to the materials that are released through the Freedom of Information Act and you know, and some of the declassification processes, I think all that would be a healthy discussion to have.

Yeah, great insight. As always, Ryan Vogel is associate professor and founding director of the Center for National Security Studies at Utah Valley University.

Yeah, great insight. As always, Ryan Vogel is associate professor and founding director of the Center for National Security Studies at Utah Valley University.

And Ryan, we always appreciate your perspective. I want to have you back because I want to keep digging into this. I think there's some things that can really help us understand it better. Uh And again, making sure that we are keeping the things safe, that we need safe and secure and classified. And at the same time having that access, uh as you say towards the right information uh for the public to know as well. Uh Ryan Vogel, again from the Utah Valley University, thanks so much for joining us today.

And Ryan, we always appreciate your perspective. I want to have you back because I want to keep digging into this. I think there's some things that can really help us understand it better. Uh And again, making sure that we are keeping the things safe, that we need safe and secure and classified. And at the same time having that access, uh as you say towards the right information uh for the public to know as well. Uh Ryan Vogel, again from the Utah Valley University, thanks so much for joining us today.

Happy to be here

Happy to be here

really important conversation. Uh This is not about secrecy for secrecy's sake. This is about secrecy for security sake and understanding the difference. We have freedom of information acts, we have things that need to be disclosed for transparency's sake. Uh We have information that is beneficial for national security. We also have methods and means that we use to gather

really important conversation. Uh This is not about secrecy for secrecy's sake. This is about secrecy for security sake and understanding the difference. We have freedom of information acts, we have things that need to be disclosed for transparency's sake. Uh We have information that is beneficial for national security. We also have methods and means that we use to gather

that kind of intelligence that's important for our future safety and security. So we have to factor it all in. It's often not just as easy as the headline might have. You think,

that kind of intelligence that's important for our future safety and security. So we have to factor it all in. It's often not just as easy as the headline might have. You think,

think again on inside sources with Boyd Matheson.

think again on inside sources with Boyd Matheson.