Welcome to Inside Active, a podcast about active managers that goes beyond sound bites and headlines and looks deeper into the processes, challenges, and philosophies and security selection. I'm David Cohne, i lead Mutual fund and active Research at Bloomberg Intelligence. Today my co host is Brian Dharty, head of Thematic Strategy at Bloomberg Intelligence. Brie, thank you for joining.

Welcome to Inside Active, a podcast about active managers that goes beyond sound bites and headlines and looks deeper into the processes, challenges, and philosophies and security selection. I'm David Cohne, i lead Mutual fund and active Research at Bloomberg Intelligence. Today my co host is Brian Dharty, head of Thematic Strategy at Bloomberg Intelligence. Brie, thank you for joining.

Me today, as always a pleasure, David, thanks for having me so.

Me today, as always a pleasure, David, thanks for having me so.

In bi's theme library, there's a category of physical environment themes ranging from decentralized energy to nuclear to solar to transition metals, and some of your recent research has highlighted that after a rough start to the year, some of these themes might have found some fresh footing. Talk to us a little bit more about that.

In bi's theme library, there's a category of physical environment themes ranging from decentralized energy to nuclear to solar to transition metals, and some of your recent research has highlighted that after a rough start to the year, some of these themes might have found some fresh footing. Talk to us a little bit more about that.

Absolutely, energy is always pretty dear to my heart, having spent a lot of years in the industry, but you're absolutely right what we've been seeing. So we have thirty three themes in our BI theme library across three categories, accelerating Tech, consumerism, and then physical environment. As you said, twelve in physical environment, pretty broad range of themes. Those themes are, you know, there's a lot of overarching secular growth trends associated with those themes. One most prevalent one naturally being the acceleration and of electrification needs, both here in the US and actually globally. So those themes, there's a lot of different type of exposures to that, to that big strong secular growth trend and decentralized energy nuclear wind, obviously, hydrogen, solar, there's a whole bunch of themes associated with that. It's been a complicated year. I think that's probably the best way to frame this, in the sense that there's actually been a little bit of a breakout in a subset of those names. So you might've seen we track our thirty one multi theme So these are actual equities within our BI theme library that are mapped more than to four or more BI themes. The physical environment names in that list have done really really well in twenty twenty four. The broad thirty one equities across all three categories have done extremely well, you know, outpacing the B five hundred in twenty twenty four by over twenty percent. But actually the physical environment specific ones, so again those are those are names who have exposure to four more BI themes, but with a physical environment biased to them, I guess would be the best way to describe it. They have outperformed those accelerating tech names quite dramatically, so I think they're up forty four percent, or in one age they're up forty four percent versus something more like nineteen percent from the accelerating tech names. So it was a really good year for those multi theme physical environment names. For the themes themselves, though, it was really hard for a lot of themes to find their footing. Nuclear did okay, but ultimately it was a relatively pained one h in two h As you mentioned, it seems to be a slightly different story. So actually all of our twelve physical environment themes are currently outpacing the World Energy Index in the second half of twenty twenty four, and six of them I think it was six as of my last count, are actually help pacing the B five hundred and the second half of twenty twenty four. So with all that said, we're excited about how these themes are potentially going to persist through the end of twenty twenty four and what's ahead in twenty twenty five.

Absolutely, energy is always pretty dear to my heart, having spent a lot of years in the industry, but you're absolutely right what we've been seeing. So we have thirty three themes in our BI theme library across three categories, accelerating Tech, consumerism, and then physical environment. As you said, twelve in physical environment, pretty broad range of themes. Those themes are, you know, there's a lot of overarching secular growth trends associated with those themes. One most prevalent one naturally being the acceleration and of electrification needs, both here in the US and actually globally. So those themes, there's a lot of different type of exposures to that, to that big strong secular growth trend and decentralized energy nuclear wind, obviously, hydrogen, solar, there's a whole bunch of themes associated with that. It's been a complicated year. I think that's probably the best way to frame this, in the sense that there's actually been a little bit of a breakout in a subset of those names. So you might've seen we track our thirty one multi theme So these are actual equities within our BI theme library that are mapped more than to four or more BI themes. The physical environment names in that list have done really really well in twenty twenty four. The broad thirty one equities across all three categories have done extremely well, you know, outpacing the B five hundred in twenty twenty four by over twenty percent. But actually the physical environment specific ones, so again those are those are names who have exposure to four more BI themes, but with a physical environment biased to them, I guess would be the best way to describe it. They have outperformed those accelerating tech names quite dramatically, so I think they're up forty four percent, or in one age they're up forty four percent versus something more like nineteen percent from the accelerating tech names. So it was a really good year for those multi theme physical environment names. For the themes themselves, though, it was really hard for a lot of themes to find their footing. Nuclear did okay, but ultimately it was a relatively pained one h in two h As you mentioned, it seems to be a slightly different story. So actually all of our twelve physical environment themes are currently outpacing the World Energy Index in the second half of twenty twenty four, and six of them I think it was six as of my last count, are actually help pacing the B five hundred and the second half of twenty twenty four. So with all that said, we're excited about how these themes are potentially going to persist through the end of twenty twenty four and what's ahead in twenty twenty five.

Given the fact that.

Given the fact that.

We've seen this pretty decent inflection point in the middle of twenty twenty four.

We've seen this pretty decent inflection point in the middle of twenty twenty four.

Here sounds interesting and be interesting to watch. And speaking of energy, I'd like to welcome our guest, Jonathan Waghorn, a portfolio manager at Guinness. He manages the Guinness Global Energy Strategy in the Guinness Sustainable Energy Strategy. Jonathan, thank you for joining the podcast.

Here sounds interesting and be interesting to watch. And speaking of energy, I'd like to welcome our guest, Jonathan Waghorn, a portfolio manager at Guinness. He manages the Guinness Global Energy Strategy in the Guinness Sustainable Energy Strategy. Jonathan, thank you for joining the podcast.

That's my pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.

That's my pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.

So to start. You know, we'd really love to hear about how you got your start in investing.

So to start. You know, we'd really love to hear about how you got your start in investing.

Sure, I'm probably a little bit different to many of the world of investing in that when I finished my degree in a science background, I decided I wanted to join the energy industry. I thought it sounded like a fascinating industry. I was lucky enough to get a job with Shell International as a drilling engineer, and I did that for a while before realizing probably that the technical side of things engineering wasn't for me, so I got to move across into finance. Ultimately spent a few years working at Goldman's as a cell side analyst covering European oil and gas and writing global research, and then lucky enough to move across to the Byside and since two thousand and eight. Then I've been a manager of long only energy funds, so I've gone from a sort of an energy background into a finance specialism and it's always been very helpful. I found it very, very useful to have that sort of knowledge of what really happens in the industry in which I'm trying to invest.

Sure, I'm probably a little bit different to many of the world of investing in that when I finished my degree in a science background, I decided I wanted to join the energy industry. I thought it sounded like a fascinating industry. I was lucky enough to get a job with Shell International as a drilling engineer, and I did that for a while before realizing probably that the technical side of things engineering wasn't for me, so I got to move across into finance. Ultimately spent a few years working at Goldman's as a cell side analyst covering European oil and gas and writing global research, and then lucky enough to move across to the Byside and since two thousand and eight. Then I've been a manager of long only energy funds, so I've gone from a sort of an energy background into a finance specialism and it's always been very helpful. I found it very, very useful to have that sort of knowledge of what really happens in the industry in which I'm trying to invest.

And so you're now ed Guinnis and for some of our US based listeners that might not be familiar with the firm, can you kind of give us the firm's investment philosophy.

And so you're now ed Guinnis and for some of our US based listeners that might not be familiar with the firm, can you kind of give us the firm's investment philosophy.

Sure, a little bit of history and sorry to disappoint, we're nothing to do with the beer. We are. The Guinness Global Investors is the brand name that we have. We're London based long only value oriented managers. It's a privately manager owned organization. We have about eleven billion dollars under management at the minute. We have that in three key areas. Dominating we have our global equities business. We then have Energy that I sit within managing the two energy funds, conventional and sustainable energy, and then we also have a specialism in Asia as well. We're growing, growing nicely. I think we're about eighty five people at the current time and we have a pretty consistent philosophy and approach to sort of value orientation or growth reasonable value delivering ourios in a concentrated manner, typically in an equal weighted philosophy as well, depending upon the volatility of each of our each of our sectors. And that's againest story. We were just celebrating our twenty year anniversary.

Sure, a little bit of history and sorry to disappoint, we're nothing to do with the beer. We are. The Guinness Global Investors is the brand name that we have. We're London based long only value oriented managers. It's a privately manager owned organization. We have about eleven billion dollars under management at the minute. We have that in three key areas. Dominating we have our global equities business. We then have Energy that I sit within managing the two energy funds, conventional and sustainable energy, and then we also have a specialism in Asia as well. We're growing, growing nicely. I think we're about eighty five people at the current time and we have a pretty consistent philosophy and approach to sort of value orientation or growth reasonable value delivering ourios in a concentrated manner, typically in an equal weighted philosophy as well, depending upon the volatility of each of our each of our sectors. And that's againest story. We were just celebrating our twenty year anniversary.

Last year, congrats, and you know, we'd like to focus kind of on the Guinness Sustainable Energy and so you know, how does Guinness define responsible investing?

Last year, congrats, and you know, we'd like to focus kind of on the Guinness Sustainable Energy and so you know, how does Guinness define responsible investing?

Sure, so I think we lean, you know, somewhat heavily on the unpri I So the United Nations Principles for Responsible Investing and the framework that they have, and that framework is one that incorporates ESG factors when building a portfolio and then has stewardship activities thereafter. So if we think about how that plays out in our Sustainable Energy fund, we integrate and incorporate ESG data from a top down point of view, understanding the energy transition, the economics, and the speed of the various different new forms of energy coming in. We think about bottom up ESG integration, understanding ESG factors qualitatively by reviewing each of our companies and doing detailed ESG work. We're compliant with our Norchesbank exclusion list, and also within the fund we write an impact report. So there's some of the aspects of incorporating and reporting on ESG factors in the fund. And then alongside that there's an engagement program. We do that at a corporate level, We do that as an investment team, and we have some collaborative engagement as well, and then we also have proxy voting that goes alongside that. All of that then done very much by the investment team, very much as part of the process that we go through in trying to understand the risks and the opportunities in ESG make sure that we capture those in the work that we do intock the stock selection that we do as well.

Sure, so I think we lean, you know, somewhat heavily on the unpri I So the United Nations Principles for Responsible Investing and the framework that they have, and that framework is one that incorporates ESG factors when building a portfolio and then has stewardship activities thereafter. So if we think about how that plays out in our Sustainable Energy fund, we integrate and incorporate ESG data from a top down point of view, understanding the energy transition, the economics, and the speed of the various different new forms of energy coming in. We think about bottom up ESG integration, understanding ESG factors qualitatively by reviewing each of our companies and doing detailed ESG work. We're compliant with our Norchesbank exclusion list, and also within the fund we write an impact report. So there's some of the aspects of incorporating and reporting on ESG factors in the fund. And then alongside that there's an engagement program. We do that at a corporate level, We do that as an investment team, and we have some collaborative engagement as well, and then we also have proxy voting that goes alongside that. All of that then done very much by the investment team, very much as part of the process that we go through in trying to understand the risks and the opportunities in ESG make sure that we capture those in the work that we do intock the stock selection that we do as well.

You've raised a couple interesting points there. I'm going to dig in a little bit on that stock selection. Obviously relatively concentrated portfolio and the sustainable energy fund that you guys have, So I'm interested in I understand, looking bottom up from the ESG perspective, how did you go about approaching or from the onset of the fund. How did you think as you look across the broad energy space. Exactly which aspects of that energy space you were going to focus on within the fund or does that change relatively frequently. I'm interested in your kind of more top down energy perspectives and how that's integrated into the process.

You've raised a couple interesting points there. I'm going to dig in a little bit on that stock selection. Obviously relatively concentrated portfolio and the sustainable energy fund that you guys have, So I'm interested in I understand, looking bottom up from the ESG perspective, how did you go about approaching or from the onset of the fund. How did you think as you look across the broad energy space. Exactly which aspects of that energy space you were going to focus on within the fund or does that change relatively frequently. I'm interested in your kind of more top down energy perspectives and how that's integrated into the process.

Sure, it's a very important part. If we think about sort of the stock selection process as a whole, we've got top down and we have bottom up, and we think of it being sort of fifty percent to each. That's the way it's always been across the energy funds the last twenty years or so, the top down work. Then for us as managers of both global energy hydrocarbons as well as sustainable energy wind, solar, and efficiency, we need to understand the breadth of the transition. We need to understand the economics, the policy of each of these individual forms and how we can build a future around them. So we build a global energy model that covers at the top level both of our strategies. We think about the key drivers of growth, of scarcity, of barriers to entry, economics, trying to help understand each of these individual areas, and then that forms really I guess, how we think about allocating portfolio assets into individual themes. So that informs our sort of our sub sector allocation, if you would, between companies involved in displacement, companies involved in the broader electrification theme, those involved in generating renewable power, and those involved in installing and creating the equipment to allow all of that to happen. And that's been a pretty constant process and thinking over time. That then is complemented by the sort of the bottom up work and the stock selection and the evaluation.

Sure, it's a very important part. If we think about sort of the stock selection process as a whole, we've got top down and we have bottom up, and we think of it being sort of fifty percent to each. That's the way it's always been across the energy funds the last twenty years or so, the top down work. Then for us as managers of both global energy hydrocarbons as well as sustainable energy wind, solar, and efficiency, we need to understand the breadth of the transition. We need to understand the economics, the policy of each of these individual forms and how we can build a future around them. So we build a global energy model that covers at the top level both of our strategies. We think about the key drivers of growth, of scarcity, of barriers to entry, economics, trying to help understand each of these individual areas, and then that forms really I guess, how we think about allocating portfolio assets into individual themes. So that informs our sort of our sub sector allocation, if you would, between companies involved in displacement, companies involved in the broader electrification theme, those involved in generating renewable power, and those involved in installing and creating the equipment to allow all of that to happen. And that's been a pretty constant process and thinking over time. That then is complemented by the sort of the bottom up work and the stock selection and the evaluation.

So is there a stock screening process.

So is there a stock screening process.

Yes, there is, and that we think of as being part of the bottom up work. So the approach at Guinness is to build a universe, and we have a universe of about two hundred and fifty companies within sustainable energy. They all have fifty percent of their business activity at least fifty percent of their business activity in sustainable energy, and we build a quantitative screen. We screen that two hundred and fifty companies every month and we score each of the companies accordingly. We screen on value, We screen on quality, being high return on capital employed, We look for positive earnings momentum, and then our fourth sort of component is positive stock price momentum. We score the companies and then we go through those on a regular basis as a team, and that then prioritizes company, prioritizes sub sectors, areas that we should go off and do some more sort of deeper due diligence. It doesn't tell us what to buy, but it's a screen that we can interrogate to try to understand and give us a very good overview of what is going on pretty quickly in a quantitative manner.

Yes, there is, and that we think of as being part of the bottom up work. So the approach at Guinness is to build a universe, and we have a universe of about two hundred and fifty companies within sustainable energy. They all have fifty percent of their business activity at least fifty percent of their business activity in sustainable energy, and we build a quantitative screen. We screen that two hundred and fifty companies every month and we score each of the companies accordingly. We screen on value, We screen on quality, being high return on capital employed, We look for positive earnings momentum, and then our fourth sort of component is positive stock price momentum. We score the companies and then we go through those on a regular basis as a team, and that then prioritizes company, prioritizes sub sectors, areas that we should go off and do some more sort of deeper due diligence. It doesn't tell us what to buy, but it's a screen that we can interrogate to try to understand and give us a very good overview of what is going on pretty quickly in a quantitative manner.

So can you elaborate a little more on the due diligence process? I mean, do you meet with management teams?

So can you elaborate a little more on the due diligence process? I mean, do you meet with management teams?

Yes, so we don't have to meet with management teams. It's not a requirement, but we do like to consume data through whatever form we can get that, and that sometimes will involve communication with management. Think of us as being a little bit more desk based, I guess in terms of the way that we work will buy background. My co manager evaluation specialist, and myself as a self said analyst, we love doing a little bit of valuation work and trying to understand sort of the intrinsic value of the companies that we are that we are buying. The second half of that due diligence process is to build some pretty involved company models. We have a standard template that we use for every company income statement, cash flow balance sheet, you' the usual criteria. We have a range of multiples based valuation methodologies are consistent DCF and where relevant, we have some of the parts work as well. And ultimately, what we're trying to do here is look at valuation through various different lenses and if we can see patterns of value, then that makes us feel comfortable that we're probably looking at a stop that could play a part in our portfolio. So we can get good value from EXCEL sitting at our desks using various different valuation tools. Where big users of the WHOLT system from UBS as well. It doesn't require a trip to go and see a management team, it doesn't require a trip to go and see a manufacturing facility. We're pretty comfortable if we can look at the data, we can make those decisions here without having to be doing the inefficiencies of long distance trips to go to go and view assets.

Yes, so we don't have to meet with management teams. It's not a requirement, but we do like to consume data through whatever form we can get that, and that sometimes will involve communication with management. Think of us as being a little bit more desk based, I guess in terms of the way that we work will buy background. My co manager evaluation specialist, and myself as a self said analyst, we love doing a little bit of valuation work and trying to understand sort of the intrinsic value of the companies that we are that we are buying. The second half of that due diligence process is to build some pretty involved company models. We have a standard template that we use for every company income statement, cash flow balance sheet, you' the usual criteria. We have a range of multiples based valuation methodologies are consistent DCF and where relevant, we have some of the parts work as well. And ultimately, what we're trying to do here is look at valuation through various different lenses and if we can see patterns of value, then that makes us feel comfortable that we're probably looking at a stop that could play a part in our portfolio. So we can get good value from EXCEL sitting at our desks using various different valuation tools. Where big users of the WHOLT system from UBS as well. It doesn't require a trip to go and see a management team, it doesn't require a trip to go and see a manufacturing facility. We're pretty comfortable if we can look at the data, we can make those decisions here without having to be doing the inefficiencies of long distance trips to go to go and view assets.

I have to go back to your start in the energy industry a little bit here, and it's one percent because I'm biased to somebody who you know. I was in commodities natural gas, specifically for a lot of years and was covering the equity side as well. So I'm somebody who deeply respects people who've had their hands in the energy industry at some aspect in the career and the fact that it gives them a really interesting perspective and understanding of the logistics around energy. So I'm very interested to hear your perspective, especially having been in the industry for a while. How has it changed over the years. What are your perspectives on right now when you look across these different energy solutions if you will to meet elect growing electrification needs, what are are you guys thinking as far as best positioned to be an integral portion of that ultimate energy solution? So, you know, basically looking up battery versus versus win versus hydro versus maybe something that's nuclear, something that's coming around the corner, how are you guys reconciling that with your process of actually delivering on the mandate for the fund And.

I have to go back to your start in the energy industry a little bit here, and it's one percent because I'm biased to somebody who you know. I was in commodities natural gas, specifically for a lot of years and was covering the equity side as well. So I'm somebody who deeply respects people who've had their hands in the energy industry at some aspect in the career and the fact that it gives them a really interesting perspective and understanding of the logistics around energy. So I'm very interested to hear your perspective, especially having been in the industry for a while. How has it changed over the years. What are your perspectives on right now when you look across these different energy solutions if you will to meet elect growing electrification needs, what are are you guys thinking as far as best positioned to be an integral portion of that ultimate energy solution? So, you know, basically looking up battery versus versus win versus hydro versus maybe something that's nuclear, something that's coming around the corner, how are you guys reconciling that with your process of actually delivering on the mandate for the fund And.

Let's think about the role of fossil fuels in all of that as well.

Let's think about the role of fossil fuels in all of that as well.

Yes, absolutely, I didn't mean to discount that.

Yes, absolutely, I didn't mean to discount that.

Absolutely, it's a very very broad range. Indeed, if we think about the transition and the reasons why we believe this is happening. We think of the world, if I may say, becoming a bigger place, more people, more demand for energy, and more diverse forms of energy to satisfy that. We think about the external threats of climate change impacting I guess more the developed world, but we think about air pollution as being more of a pressure in the developing world. Energy security is increasingly becoming a key key topic, especially post the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and we for years said no country wants to rely upon Opek for it oil or Russia for its natural gas. But key for us in the work that we do and the thinking we do is economics is trying to understand where are the cheapest forms of energy in whatever form coming into this market, and how will that disrupt and change things for the future. Now, if we think about how that has changed, certainly over my career in the energy space, it's been a dramatic, dramatic change, not so much in the fossil fuels, but in the renewable space. I don't have the data going all the way back to sort of the mid nineteen nineties, but you look at the cost of generating electricity from solar. Over the last sort of ten or thirteen years, it's fallen ninety percent offshore wind onshore wind. Again, dramatic reductions in cost as technology or scale has allowed these industries to get going, and that has allowed been solar PB onshore wind as an example, to be very much at the bottom end of the cost curve on a leveled basis in terms of generating new power, and that really is what is driving the transition. Policy support is there to accelerate it, but otherwise we think it is very much down, very much down to the economics and the transition there. And it's not just those technologies go through the transition. We see it in batteries. The learning rate for batteries is seventeen percent for lithium ion batteries. So for every doubling of capacity of manufacturing capacity of lithium I in batteries, the cost of a battery has been falling by seventeen percent. And if we think about where that takes us, hopefully in about three years time, we'll have batteries at one hundred dollars per killer what hour as being a pretty kind of regular cost. That's when I think the electrification of transportation really starts to take off. And if we think about the technology roadmap ahead on batteries, it continues solid state batteries, lithium anodes. We think about the new technology that is in labs at the minute, we can see dramatic cost reductions from here, So there's a real journey ahead. By no means have we come to the end here, and that all points towards electrification and away from fossil fuels. But then we're also satisfying growing energy demand, So we need to think about the fact that fossil fuels will be around for a fair few more years. Yet coal will be the loser, but we don't see oil peaking in demand until twenty thirty, natural gas is probably twenty forty, and even by twenty fifty there is still good demand for those two fossil fuels because it takes a long time for this to work all the way through the system. So this is a pretty slow moving transition that we're going through here. It will play out over over decades still.

Absolutely, it's a very very broad range. Indeed, if we think about the transition and the reasons why we believe this is happening. We think of the world, if I may say, becoming a bigger place, more people, more demand for energy, and more diverse forms of energy to satisfy that. We think about the external threats of climate change impacting I guess more the developed world, but we think about air pollution as being more of a pressure in the developing world. Energy security is increasingly becoming a key key topic, especially post the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and we for years said no country wants to rely upon Opek for it oil or Russia for its natural gas. But key for us in the work that we do and the thinking we do is economics is trying to understand where are the cheapest forms of energy in whatever form coming into this market, and how will that disrupt and change things for the future. Now, if we think about how that has changed, certainly over my career in the energy space, it's been a dramatic, dramatic change, not so much in the fossil fuels, but in the renewable space. I don't have the data going all the way back to sort of the mid nineteen nineties, but you look at the cost of generating electricity from solar. Over the last sort of ten or thirteen years, it's fallen ninety percent offshore wind onshore wind. Again, dramatic reductions in cost as technology or scale has allowed these industries to get going, and that has allowed been solar PB onshore wind as an example, to be very much at the bottom end of the cost curve on a leveled basis in terms of generating new power, and that really is what is driving the transition. Policy support is there to accelerate it, but otherwise we think it is very much down, very much down to the economics and the transition there. And it's not just those technologies go through the transition. We see it in batteries. The learning rate for batteries is seventeen percent for lithium ion batteries. So for every doubling of capacity of manufacturing capacity of lithium I in batteries, the cost of a battery has been falling by seventeen percent. And if we think about where that takes us, hopefully in about three years time, we'll have batteries at one hundred dollars per killer what hour as being a pretty kind of regular cost. That's when I think the electrification of transportation really starts to take off. And if we think about the technology roadmap ahead on batteries, it continues solid state batteries, lithium anodes. We think about the new technology that is in labs at the minute, we can see dramatic cost reductions from here, So there's a real journey ahead. By no means have we come to the end here, and that all points towards electrification and away from fossil fuels. But then we're also satisfying growing energy demand, So we need to think about the fact that fossil fuels will be around for a fair few more years. Yet coal will be the loser, but we don't see oil peaking in demand until twenty thirty, natural gas is probably twenty forty, and even by twenty fifty there is still good demand for those two fossil fuels because it takes a long time for this to work all the way through the system. So this is a pretty slow moving transition that we're going through here. It will play out over over decades still.

So when you look at your fund and specifically and this is I know you have a more traditional energy fund as well, right, and yes, sustainable one and the sustainable one specifically equal weight across all the equities. Do you have a do you try to provide a certain weighted exposure to or equal weight exposure to the different type of technologies. So be it you want only a portion exposed to solar or the rest you want to batter, you know, however that might split might be. Is that relatively stable or do you guys on your rebalances. Are you consistently looking at how that diversity across the technologies looks within the fund and versus you know, the actually underlying equities.

So when you look at your fund and specifically and this is I know you have a more traditional energy fund as well, right, and yes, sustainable one and the sustainable one specifically equal weight across all the equities. Do you have a do you try to provide a certain weighted exposure to or equal weight exposure to the different type of technologies. So be it you want only a portion exposed to solar or the rest you want to batter, you know, however that might split might be. Is that relatively stable or do you guys on your rebalances. Are you consistently looking at how that diversity across the technologies looks within the fund and versus you know, the actually underlying equities.

Sure, if you think of the that top down and bottom up process that we do, where we're coming up and selecting stocks which have a good thematic top down that show good valuation, upside and intrinsic value in terms of the bottom up work we do. That goes into a portfolio broadly equal weight. But this is a reasonably volatile space, so we will allow momentum to play out, so we don't necessarily rebalance every stock on a regular basis. We'll let things run a little bit further. The reasons why we the equal waiting. Incidentally, we think of that as giving good concentration, so thirty best ideas. Every idea makes a difference. It does control stock specific risk, so nothing ever gets too big within the portfolio. We have a structural cell discipline, so if I want to buy something, I need to sell something. And then we think that regular rebalancing, which is an informed rebalancing process, is a sensible route to creating good returns in the portfolio as well. We build that portfolio up, we look at the waitings, be those geographic, be those by sector, and we look at that relative to our universe. We think about the relative overweights and underweights that we have, and then ultimately we'll allow those positions to sort of trend over time depending on where we feel things are more advantaged or not at different points. It's low turnover, so typically this is sort of ten to fifteen maybe twenty percent turnover a year.

Sure, if you think of the that top down and bottom up process that we do, where we're coming up and selecting stocks which have a good thematic top down that show good valuation, upside and intrinsic value in terms of the bottom up work we do. That goes into a portfolio broadly equal weight. But this is a reasonably volatile space, so we will allow momentum to play out, so we don't necessarily rebalance every stock on a regular basis. We'll let things run a little bit further. The reasons why we the equal waiting. Incidentally, we think of that as giving good concentration, so thirty best ideas. Every idea makes a difference. It does control stock specific risk, so nothing ever gets too big within the portfolio. We have a structural cell discipline, so if I want to buy something, I need to sell something. And then we think that regular rebalancing, which is an informed rebalancing process, is a sensible route to creating good returns in the portfolio as well. We build that portfolio up, we look at the waitings, be those geographic, be those by sector, and we look at that relative to our universe. We think about the relative overweights and underweights that we have, and then ultimately we'll allow those positions to sort of trend over time depending on where we feel things are more advantaged or not at different points. It's low turnover, so typically this is sort of ten to fifteen maybe twenty percent turnover a year.

Is there anything that's prized you? And I mean I can think to myself as too, if you were to ask me twenty years ago which ones of these technologies maybe would be at the forefront right now, I don't know necessarily that I'd be giving the same answer twenty years ago as i'd be saying right now. So I'm curious from your perspective, is there anything that surprised you in how this transition has thus far manifested and kind of where we're at right now with respect to these different types of technologies. Again, you know, we solar hydrogen win batteries. Do you think that we were you expecting us to be further ahead in some aspects or are we further ahead than you thought we would be?

Is there anything that's prized you? And I mean I can think to myself as too, if you were to ask me twenty years ago which ones of these technologies maybe would be at the forefront right now, I don't know necessarily that I'd be giving the same answer twenty years ago as i'd be saying right now. So I'm curious from your perspective, is there anything that surprised you in how this transition has thus far manifested and kind of where we're at right now with respect to these different types of technologies. Again, you know, we solar hydrogen win batteries. Do you think that we were you expecting us to be further ahead in some aspects or are we further ahead than you thought we would be?

Yeah, I'd probably could say we're further ahead than where I would have thought we would be. If you think of the investment going into clean energy just recently, I mean last year was one point seven trillion dollars into clean energy. That was a level that was up three times relative to the expenditure in twenty nineteen. Okay, so there is a clear effort and push towards this in a, you know, in a very very significant manner. So in that respect, there's a lot that's being done. If we're going to believe a net zero scenario, that investment needs to be four or five trillion dollars per annum. So there's still, you know, an awful long way to go. When I kind of I sit back and I think about how things are evolving, I think nuclear is an area that really satisfies many of the demands that we have in terms of clean, carbon free baseload power, and it's somewhat surprising that that is still as small as it is and that the industry has not got better at developing nuclear Clearly very topical at the current time if you think of the Microsoft's and the Googles and the Amazons signing up to get nuclear in the US because of artificial intelligence. So that's surprising that that hasn't progressed. And then I'd say I find the hydrogen industry slightly confusing. A lot of excitement and enthusiasm the last five years about the great hope of hydrogen, and I still think that is an industry that is still very, very economically stretched, just in the cost of generating green hydrogen, the cost of doing that, the energy loss that goes through doing that, the cost of storing hydrogen is really quite significant. So I've still yet to be convinced with with the likes of hydrogen. So I find that a bit of a bit of a surprise relative to what I would have expected.

Yeah, I'd probably could say we're further ahead than where I would have thought we would be. If you think of the investment going into clean energy just recently, I mean last year was one point seven trillion dollars into clean energy. That was a level that was up three times relative to the expenditure in twenty nineteen. Okay, so there is a clear effort and push towards this in a, you know, in a very very significant manner. So in that respect, there's a lot that's being done. If we're going to believe a net zero scenario, that investment needs to be four or five trillion dollars per annum. So there's still, you know, an awful long way to go. When I kind of I sit back and I think about how things are evolving, I think nuclear is an area that really satisfies many of the demands that we have in terms of clean, carbon free baseload power, and it's somewhat surprising that that is still as small as it is and that the industry has not got better at developing nuclear Clearly very topical at the current time if you think of the Microsoft's and the Googles and the Amazons signing up to get nuclear in the US because of artificial intelligence. So that's surprising that that hasn't progressed. And then I'd say I find the hydrogen industry slightly confusing. A lot of excitement and enthusiasm the last five years about the great hope of hydrogen, and I still think that is an industry that is still very, very economically stretched, just in the cost of generating green hydrogen, the cost of doing that, the energy loss that goes through doing that, the cost of storing hydrogen is really quite significant. So I've still yet to be convinced with with the likes of hydrogen. So I find that a bit of a bit of a surprise relative to what I would have expected.

I wanted to follow up. You mentioned you have a structured cell process. Is it you know, better opportunities or valuations that would you know, make you you know, sell a stock.

I wanted to follow up. You mentioned you have a structured cell process. Is it you know, better opportunities or valuations that would you know, make you you know, sell a stock.

Yeah, I guess the investment process we go through, we come up with an intrinsic value, you know, what do we think this company is really worth on a sort of a through cycle normalized valuation methodology. So seeing that share price being or that value being breached would indicate that we might be looking to get out of a position. It would have to you know, materially breach the intrinsic value I think for us to be doing that. Ultimately, I talked about the switch process. So you know, we are thirty positions, so we would be selling something if we find a better buy idea. So there's a relative sort of component to that as well. And if you look at the cells that we've had, I think over the last five years, you'll see that some of that is why fair proportion is M and A activity, so companies being bid for. So again, if you think about the value bias that we have in the work that we do, that's quite often replicated in industrial activity, so in mergers and acquisitions. So we found that again a number of our positions have have been acquired as well.

Yeah, I guess the investment process we go through, we come up with an intrinsic value, you know, what do we think this company is really worth on a sort of a through cycle normalized valuation methodology. So seeing that share price being or that value being breached would indicate that we might be looking to get out of a position. It would have to you know, materially breach the intrinsic value I think for us to be doing that. Ultimately, I talked about the switch process. So you know, we are thirty positions, so we would be selling something if we find a better buy idea. So there's a relative sort of component to that as well. And if you look at the cells that we've had, I think over the last five years, you'll see that some of that is why fair proportion is M and A activity, so companies being bid for. So again, if you think about the value bias that we have in the work that we do, that's quite often replicated in industrial activity, so in mergers and acquisitions. So we found that again a number of our positions have have been acquired as well.

It's a crowded space, right, there's plenty of people that there's plenty of funds that are trying to look at energy transition and that have been built around the concept that there's obviously huge, overarching and secular growth trend there. What really different is your fund? And we talked about a few things here. Naturally, it's a concentrated exposure. You have a very robust bottom up and top down mix. But interested to hear from you, I'm sure that you look at the competition fairly frequently and how how does yours differ relatives from the other funds out there? And where do you think your edge is as you look to where you think the actual energy industry has had it.

It's a crowded space, right, there's plenty of people that there's plenty of funds that are trying to look at energy transition and that have been built around the concept that there's obviously huge, overarching and secular growth trend there. What really different is your fund? And we talked about a few things here. Naturally, it's a concentrated exposure. You have a very robust bottom up and top down mix. But interested to hear from you, I'm sure that you look at the competition fairly frequently and how how does yours differ relatives from the other funds out there? And where do you think your edge is as you look to where you think the actual energy industry has had it.

Sure, we never say a bad word about our competition. They're all great, naturally, nor should you.

Sure, we never say a bad word about our competition. They're all great, naturally, nor should you.

Everybody has a right to be there.

Everybody has a right to be there.

So I'll get on my sales soapbox just for just for a moment.

So I'll get on my sales soapbox just for just for a moment.

It was a very cool there. I appreciate it.

It was a very cool there. I appreciate it.

What's what's going to differentiate the fund ultimately is going to be the performance, isn't it? So we were everything we do we're trying to sort of optimize the performance. This is a crowded space. But then we can point to the fact that we got into this area back in two thousand and seven, so we've been around for a few years. Actually, our experience in energy is about twenty five years now, and it's the same team that covers both sides of energy, which I think is a real advantage the universe that I mentioned earlier, and I think the screening of that, the understanding of that that's bespoke to us. I think that's a very good starting point from the point of view of coming up with ideas. Having a value orientation to the work that we do. I think again makes good sense of trying to get growth at reasonable value. That is a sensible approach in this area. And then I think the impact alignment work that we do. There's an impact report on the fund. I think that again also helps to differentiate what we do, and that's kind of a support for our investors as well, and for those who want to turn to it. The Guinness website Guinness Global Investors, you'll see lots of written content, monthly reports, webcasts, annual outlooks. We'd like to think that we provide a good service around that to help investors understand what is going on in this space at the current time.

What's what's going to differentiate the fund ultimately is going to be the performance, isn't it? So we were everything we do we're trying to sort of optimize the performance. This is a crowded space. But then we can point to the fact that we got into this area back in two thousand and seven, so we've been around for a few years. Actually, our experience in energy is about twenty five years now, and it's the same team that covers both sides of energy, which I think is a real advantage the universe that I mentioned earlier, and I think the screening of that, the understanding of that that's bespoke to us. I think that's a very good starting point from the point of view of coming up with ideas. Having a value orientation to the work that we do. I think again makes good sense of trying to get growth at reasonable value. That is a sensible approach in this area. And then I think the impact alignment work that we do. There's an impact report on the fund. I think that again also helps to differentiate what we do, and that's kind of a support for our investors as well, and for those who want to turn to it. The Guinness website Guinness Global Investors, you'll see lots of written content, monthly reports, webcasts, annual outlooks. We'd like to think that we provide a good service around that to help investors understand what is going on in this space at the current time.

And I mean you've mentioned that this fund's been around two thousand and seven. Again, we're tired about the fact that you've been looking at this space from many different goals over many years. You said a few minutes ago two things to me, there are two of my favorite things to talk about recently, it seems. One is M and A in the energy space, it's always going to be interesting. I think we're at a really interesting time right now. And then the other is I'm quite keen to see how this plays out, that this new found hyper focus of technology companies, so big tech companies dollars really focusing on resilient, reliable, more sustainable energy to support their long term business strategies. That as a potential real catalyst. What are your thoughts on how impactful you think that tech obsession might be not the right word, but tech focus is on energy right now, and the historically it's always been so heavily reliant on policy. How impactful you think could be over the next few years, And then you know, anytime you want to sprinkle anything around M and A and how you're viewing that current landscape right now, and the implications always came to hear that as well.

And I mean you've mentioned that this fund's been around two thousand and seven. Again, we're tired about the fact that you've been looking at this space from many different goals over many years. You said a few minutes ago two things to me, there are two of my favorite things to talk about recently, it seems. One is M and A in the energy space, it's always going to be interesting. I think we're at a really interesting time right now. And then the other is I'm quite keen to see how this plays out, that this new found hyper focus of technology companies, so big tech companies dollars really focusing on resilient, reliable, more sustainable energy to support their long term business strategies. That as a potential real catalyst. What are your thoughts on how impactful you think that tech obsession might be not the right word, but tech focus is on energy right now, and the historically it's always been so heavily reliant on policy. How impactful you think could be over the next few years, And then you know, anytime you want to sprinkle anything around M and A and how you're viewing that current landscape right now, and the implications always came to hear that as well.

It is very interesting, I think this year the outlook for electricity demand growth, especially in the US around data centers and big tech. It has really transformed. US power demand the last ten years has grown at sort of a percentage point for ADAM and we're seeing forecast now of power demand growing at two and a half percent per annum over the next ten years. So that means that data centers will go from two and a half percent of US power demand to seven and a half percent of US power demand just in about three years from now. Don't underestimate the size of these things. A data center has a grid connection the size of an airport, and you know, we are building these things rapidly. The number of data centers being built now, I think is up seven times on what we saw just just two years ago. So this is one component, and it does appear to be pretty strong, pretty robust. It's not just a case of getting electricity to these facilities though, it is also a case of having the grid in a position to allow that to happen. And we think of much of the Western world's power grid being forty to fifty years old, So we need to see investment in the global power grid, you know, doubling by twenty thirty. And that's to allow for expansion, reconnection, digitalization, you know, and we need to see that investment being supported with policy with rates of return, and ultimately, you know, all of this kind of feeds together towards greater electricity demand. It won't purely be solved by wind, it won't purely be solved by solar. Nuclear won't do much because it takes ten years to build a nuclear facility and it will be the mid twenty thirties before we have any hope of small modular reactors helping here. So it also plays out to natural gas. You know, natural gas will be clearly a route that will be successful here in growing electricity demand. On the point of M and A as well. Actually, again that's been quite interesting this summer. The greater electricity demand means that a number of the independent power producers have been bid for, and we're seeing private equity essentially doing that, four or five deals being announced over the summer. We also saw equinor the older stat Oil, taking a ten percent stake in AUSTED So that's the Danish wind power producer. And we saw Rio Tinto bidding over one hundred percent to the undisturbed price to acquire arcadium lithium, so the pure play lithium minor and producer. So we are stilling to see some M and A and again that's that's pretty good for us. We like to see that kind of activity.

It is very interesting, I think this year the outlook for electricity demand growth, especially in the US around data centers and big tech. It has really transformed. US power demand the last ten years has grown at sort of a percentage point for ADAM and we're seeing forecast now of power demand growing at two and a half percent per annum over the next ten years. So that means that data centers will go from two and a half percent of US power demand to seven and a half percent of US power demand just in about three years from now. Don't underestimate the size of these things. A data center has a grid connection the size of an airport, and you know, we are building these things rapidly. The number of data centers being built now, I think is up seven times on what we saw just just two years ago. So this is one component, and it does appear to be pretty strong, pretty robust. It's not just a case of getting electricity to these facilities though, it is also a case of having the grid in a position to allow that to happen. And we think of much of the Western world's power grid being forty to fifty years old, So we need to see investment in the global power grid, you know, doubling by twenty thirty. And that's to allow for expansion, reconnection, digitalization, you know, and we need to see that investment being supported with policy with rates of return, and ultimately, you know, all of this kind of feeds together towards greater electricity demand. It won't purely be solved by wind, it won't purely be solved by solar. Nuclear won't do much because it takes ten years to build a nuclear facility and it will be the mid twenty thirties before we have any hope of small modular reactors helping here. So it also plays out to natural gas. You know, natural gas will be clearly a route that will be successful here in growing electricity demand. On the point of M and A as well. Actually, again that's been quite interesting this summer. The greater electricity demand means that a number of the independent power producers have been bid for, and we're seeing private equity essentially doing that, four or five deals being announced over the summer. We also saw equinor the older stat Oil, taking a ten percent stake in AUSTED So that's the Danish wind power producer. And we saw Rio Tinto bidding over one hundred percent to the undisturbed price to acquire arcadium lithium, so the pure play lithium minor and producer. So we are stilling to see some M and A and again that's that's pretty good for us. We like to see that kind of activity.

I really I think that those are great things to call it on that M and A side. I hurting back to I'm going to get the dates wrong, but when you think of the big disruption and related to large cap independence with here here within the US, around the rise of shale both gas and oil, and just how that spurred such a robust M and A market in the energy field for a good sub section of years, I think it'll be interesting to see if in this more renewables or new energy landscape, if we're kind of due for the next stage of M and A or you know, be it asset swaps or MNA activity, how that manifests we mentioned you mentioned there in the list there are quite a few large caps or ultra large caps majors. How do we think that sort of big company versus maybe small caps newer entrants do we think that there's space for these smaller companies to hold their own and continue to you know, move through this, or do we really think that this is a space that's going to be predominantly dominated by the bigger players size the benefit here or is there space for smaller companies to be in the next.

I really I think that those are great things to call it on that M and A side. I hurting back to I'm going to get the dates wrong, but when you think of the big disruption and related to large cap independence with here here within the US, around the rise of shale both gas and oil, and just how that spurred such a robust M and A market in the energy field for a good sub section of years, I think it'll be interesting to see if in this more renewables or new energy landscape, if we're kind of due for the next stage of M and A or you know, be it asset swaps or MNA activity, how that manifests we mentioned you mentioned there in the list there are quite a few large caps or ultra large caps majors. How do we think that sort of big company versus maybe small caps newer entrants do we think that there's space for these smaller companies to hold their own and continue to you know, move through this, or do we really think that this is a space that's going to be predominantly dominated by the bigger players size the benefit here or is there space for smaller companies to be in the next.

Yeah, I think I'd probably go with trend and say, yeah, this is going to be big companies mopping up. Yeah, we see that in the conventional space. That's just been the history of things. We see that also somewhat here in the sustainable energy space, but I think we're still waiting to really see sort of the higher levels of M and A activity in this area as far as as far as I can see. That requires somewhat the likes of the global super majors in oil and gas to work out exactly what their strategies are, exactly how they can evolve in the energy transition. The areas that they're looking at. Is it carbon catch and storage, is it hydrogen, is it renewable fuels. We're seeing you know, a fair amount of deals going on there. So yes, I'd say this is all still very very much in process, and we again we've tried very very hard, and we can't always do this all the time, but just to try to work out what is the intrinsic value of this thing, not how exciting is the story, but how how valuable is the asset, how valuable are the cash flows, and either the stock market will reflect that or there'll be some M and A activity. It's going to be one of those two over time. Sometimes it's nice to see the m and A. And sometimes it's a real shame when you own a good company that's doing well that is taken out by a big competitor, and you know ultimately there've yeah, there's been some value that's been taken away.

Yeah, I think I'd probably go with trend and say, yeah, this is going to be big companies mopping up. Yeah, we see that in the conventional space. That's just been the history of things. We see that also somewhat here in the sustainable energy space, but I think we're still waiting to really see sort of the higher levels of M and A activity in this area as far as as far as I can see. That requires somewhat the likes of the global super majors in oil and gas to work out exactly what their strategies are, exactly how they can evolve in the energy transition. The areas that they're looking at. Is it carbon catch and storage, is it hydrogen, is it renewable fuels. We're seeing you know, a fair amount of deals going on there. So yes, I'd say this is all still very very much in process, and we again we've tried very very hard, and we can't always do this all the time, but just to try to work out what is the intrinsic value of this thing, not how exciting is the story, but how how valuable is the asset, how valuable are the cash flows, and either the stock market will reflect that or there'll be some M and A activity. It's going to be one of those two over time. Sometimes it's nice to see the m and A. And sometimes it's a real shame when you own a good company that's doing well that is taken out by a big competitor, and you know ultimately there've yeah, there's been some value that's been taken away.

You mentioned a little bit earlier that you're you're not quick to move in and out of the underlining equities just in any rebalance, just because, but you know, rather seeing it through potentially some of the volatility. When you think of over the entire lifespan of the fund thus far, has there been a lot of evolution of those underlining equities or have there been some mainstays in there?

You mentioned a little bit earlier that you're you're not quick to move in and out of the underlining equities just in any rebalance, just because, but you know, rather seeing it through potentially some of the volatility. When you think of over the entire lifespan of the fund thus far, has there been a lot of evolution of those underlining equities or have there been some mainstays in there?

Yeah? Sure, so we've had a fair amount of mainstays. I guess over time, I'm probably plucking numbers out of the air here a bit, but I would think relative to five years ago, forty or fifty percent of the portfolio will will be the same holdings, the same names in that we've added and we've lost some names through through sales through M and A. If I go back over the last five years, I'd say we've increased our exposure to the States, We've reduced our exposure to the emerging markets, reduced our exposure to China. Within that, our European exposure has been broadly flat over that time period. And then within the sub sectors we've added more in efficiency. Some of our recent additions have been in areas like insulation in the United States, manufacturing and installing insulation. We've slightly reduced our exposure to battery and electric vehicles. We've reduced our exposure to generation companies, so to the power producers, and our exposure to equipment has been broadly the same equipment manufacturers over time. And actually again given some good performance over that five year period, not not so much the last eighteen months, but over five years, the market cap on average has been blending upwards in the portfolio as well. I think our median mark cap today is around the seventeen billion dollar level.

Yeah? Sure, so we've had a fair amount of mainstays. I guess over time, I'm probably plucking numbers out of the air here a bit, but I would think relative to five years ago, forty or fifty percent of the portfolio will will be the same holdings, the same names in that we've added and we've lost some names through through sales through M and A. If I go back over the last five years, I'd say we've increased our exposure to the States, We've reduced our exposure to the emerging markets, reduced our exposure to China. Within that, our European exposure has been broadly flat over that time period. And then within the sub sectors we've added more in efficiency. Some of our recent additions have been in areas like insulation in the United States, manufacturing and installing insulation. We've slightly reduced our exposure to battery and electric vehicles. We've reduced our exposure to generation companies, so to the power producers, and our exposure to equipment has been broadly the same equipment manufacturers over time. And actually again given some good performance over that five year period, not not so much the last eighteen months, but over five years, the market cap on average has been blending upwards in the portfolio as well. I think our median mark cap today is around the seventeen billion dollar level.

I actually had a kind of a somewhat of a follow up, you know, in your view, how has responsible energy investing changed over the past five or ten years?

I actually had a kind of a somewhat of a follow up, you know, in your view, how has responsible energy investing changed over the past five or ten years?

Yeah, quite I guess quite a lot. I'm going to show my age here a little bit. I'm going to go back a little bit further than that, I think, you know, I go back to the where would it have been about two thousand and four, two thousand and five Goldman's I was part of the sell side research team covering European oily gas companies, but also writing the kind of the global research for Goldmans as well. And I remember the day quite clearly when my boss opposite and me opened a letter, yep, a letter that he had received. It was those days, and it was from the UN. It's from the United Nations. It was a letter from KOFE NAM to our team asking if we would write a piece of research about ESG fact us in the global oil and gas industry. And that was a completely new thing. That was a completely new what is ESG? What is the data? We spent probably three or four months putting together an index, finding data and doing analysis. So things have really changed an awful lot in the last twenty years, so the amount of data that is available, the integration of that data, it has changed dramatically. So that's the kind of the point of ESG and responsible investing. I'm sure there will be more progressed from here as well. And then at the same time, we've seen the industry evolve in terms of growth of renewables, the importance of energy efficiency. But even then, still today we're eighty three percent satisfying world energy demand by fossil fuels, so this has still got I think a very very long way to go.

Yeah, quite I guess quite a lot. I'm going to show my age here a little bit. I'm going to go back a little bit further than that, I think, you know, I go back to the where would it have been about two thousand and four, two thousand and five Goldman's I was part of the sell side research team covering European oily gas companies, but also writing the kind of the global research for Goldmans as well. And I remember the day quite clearly when my boss opposite and me opened a letter, yep, a letter that he had received. It was those days, and it was from the UN. It's from the United Nations. It was a letter from KOFE NAM to our team asking if we would write a piece of research about ESG fact us in the global oil and gas industry. And that was a completely new thing. That was a completely new what is ESG? What is the data? We spent probably three or four months putting together an index, finding data and doing analysis. So things have really changed an awful lot in the last twenty years, so the amount of data that is available, the integration of that data, it has changed dramatically. So that's the kind of the point of ESG and responsible investing. I'm sure there will be more progressed from here as well. And then at the same time, we've seen the industry evolve in terms of growth of renewables, the importance of energy efficiency. But even then, still today we're eighty three percent satisfying world energy demand by fossil fuels, so this has still got I think a very very long way to go.

That'd be great to watch. Thank you again for joining us, Jonathan.

That'd be great to watch. Thank you again for joining us, Jonathan.

That's my pleasure. Thank you very much for having me on BRI.

That's my pleasure. Thank you very much for having me on BRI.

Thank you for being my co host today.

Thank you for being my co host today.

It's always a pleasure, David. I appreciate every invite and thank thank you very much this time, especially so Jonathan, because we got to talk energy and I don't always get to talk that on my day to day so it's always a pleasure to do that.

It's always a pleasure, David. I appreciate every invite and thank thank you very much this time, especially so Jonathan, because we got to talk energy and I don't always get to talk that on my day to day so it's always a pleasure to do that.

Until our next episode, This is David Combe with Inside Active

Until our next episode, This is David Combe with Inside Active