What are the most important things for our students to learn now that we're in a world where AI is so much smarter than any human, Instead of learning skills that may not matter as much in the future, can AI help us to learn the important things?

What are the most important things for our students to learn now that we're in a world where AI is so much smarter than any human, Instead of learning skills that may not matter as much in the future, can AI help us to learn the important things?

And what are the important things? Do we give up on.

And what are the important things? Do we give up on.

Education or are the very clever ways that we can direct our teaching to get the best out of our schools. What would Saul Khan, founder of the Kahn Academy say about all this? Well, you're lucky because you're about to find out. Welcome to inner Cosmos with me David Eagelman. I'm a neuroscientist and author at Stanford and in these episodes we dive into our three pound universe to uncover some of the most surprising aspects of our lives and our times. Today's episode is part two about the future of education. In part one last week, I covered the long road of how technology changes schooling. For example, when the printing press was invented in fourteen forty, some thinkers of the time were sure that invention would dumb us all down, because now if you ask a student for an answer, the answer is right there, It's written down. You just pull the book off the shelf and wham, it's as though you can pretend you know something. And we went through similar debates when desk calculators were introduced, will the kids become stupid? And then there was the invention of the World Wide Web, And then when they Google burst onto the scene, and all you had to do was type your question into this little box and it had indexed all the information in the world and it could point you precisely where you needed.

Education or are the very clever ways that we can direct our teaching to get the best out of our schools. What would Saul Khan, founder of the Kahn Academy say about all this? Well, you're lucky because you're about to find out. Welcome to inner Cosmos with me David Eagelman. I'm a neuroscientist and author at Stanford and in these episodes we dive into our three pound universe to uncover some of the most surprising aspects of our lives and our times. Today's episode is part two about the future of education. In part one last week, I covered the long road of how technology changes schooling. For example, when the printing press was invented in fourteen forty, some thinkers of the time were sure that invention would dumb us all down, because now if you ask a student for an answer, the answer is right there, It's written down. You just pull the book off the shelf and wham, it's as though you can pretend you know something. And we went through similar debates when desk calculators were introduced, will the kids become stupid? And then there was the invention of the World Wide Web, And then when they Google burst onto the scene, and all you had to do was type your question into this little box and it had indexed all the information in the world and it could point you precisely where you needed.

To go to find the answer.

To go to find the answer.

So suddenly it didn't matter what question the teacher asked you.

So suddenly it didn't matter what question the teacher asked you.

As long as somebody somewhere.

As long as somebody somewhere.

In the world knew the answer and had typed it on the web page, it was just one click away from you. In all these cases, educators were forced to change the way they asked questions and assessed a student's knowledge.

In the world knew the answer and had typed it on the web page, it was just one click away from you. In all these cases, educators were forced to change the way they asked questions and assessed a student's knowledge.

And you know what, it wasn't that hard.

And you know what, it wasn't that hard.

So where are we with technology in general and AI in particular right now? I made three main arguments in last week's episode. I argued that the extant technology wires the brain of each generation differently, as in how they're wired to best learn and the ways they seek information. Then I gave many examples of the ways in which AI can be used to massively improve the way we teach, from individualized tutoring to reducing the workload on the teachers, to training critical thinking and magnifying creativity. If you want to hear more about that, please check out that last episode. And finally, I made the argument that the purpose for schooling for education is to give the students roots and wings, as Gerta phrased it, which just means giving them the foundations that they need for critical thinking and the ability to create new things and go off in novel directions.

So where are we with technology in general and AI in particular right now? I made three main arguments in last week's episode. I argued that the extant technology wires the brain of each generation differently, as in how they're wired to best learn and the ways they seek information. Then I gave many examples of the ways in which AI can be used to massively improve the way we teach, from individualized tutoring to reducing the workload on the teachers, to training critical thinking and magnifying creativity. If you want to hear more about that, please check out that last episode. And finally, I made the argument that the purpose for schooling for education is to give the students roots and wings, as Gerta phrased it, which just means giving them the foundations that they need for critical thinking and the ability to create new things and go off in novel directions.

So today we're going to.

So today we're going to.

Get someone else's take on the state of things, and not just anyone, but someone who has single handedly had perhaps the largest impact on the planet's education.

Get someone else's take on the state of things, and not just anyone, but someone who has single handedly had perhaps the largest impact on the planet's education.

That I know. That's all Con.

That I know. That's all Con.

And if you don't know his name, you surely know his creation, the Con Academy, which is an educational platform that provides free and very high quality online courses. It does this across math and science, and history and economics.

And if you don't know his name, you surely know his creation, the Con Academy, which is an educational platform that provides free and very high quality online courses. It does this across math and science, and history and economics.

Anything you want to learn.

Anything you want to learn.

It has video lessons and interactive exercises and learning tools, and the key is, unlike a normal school system, this allows users to progress at their own pace, so Saul has a unique vantage point to view the world's education and as my neighbor here in Silicon Valley, he has the opportunity to see the latest greatest tech and understand where things are going.

It has video lessons and interactive exercises and learning tools, and the key is, unlike a normal school system, this allows users to progress at their own pace, so Saul has a unique vantage point to view the world's education and as my neighbor here in Silicon Valley, he has the opportunity to see the latest greatest tech and understand where things are going.

So, without further ado, here's my interview with Saul con.

So, without further ado, here's my interview with Saul con.

Okay, sal So, you're famous for having started the con Academy.

Okay, sal So, you're famous for having started the con Academy.

Tell us about the history of that.

Tell us about the history of that.

Oh hi, you know, I guess you go back about twenty years ago. A little over twenty years ago. My original background was in technology, and I go to business school and I find myself. I'm working at a hedge fund in Boston. Two thousand and four. I'm a year out of business school. I get married. My wife grew up in New Jersey, so all of my family from New Orleans, where I was born and raised, comes to New Jersey for the wedding. While they were staying with me. My cousin, it just came out of conversation was having trouble with math Navia. She was twelve years old, and when I asked her about it is unit conversion, etc. I told Navy, I'm a hundred percent sure you can. You can learn this material if you're up for it. I'm happy to tutor you remotely when you go back to New Orleans. She agrees, she goes back. We start working together, slowly, but surely she gets unit conversion. She gets caught up with her class, littlehead of her class. Then I'd become what I call a tiger cousin. And I call up her school and they.

Oh hi, you know, I guess you go back about twenty years ago. A little over twenty years ago. My original background was in technology, and I go to business school and I find myself. I'm working at a hedge fund in Boston. Two thousand and four. I'm a year out of business school. I get married. My wife grew up in New Jersey, so all of my family from New Orleans, where I was born and raised, comes to New Jersey for the wedding. While they were staying with me. My cousin, it just came out of conversation was having trouble with math Navia. She was twelve years old, and when I asked her about it is unit conversion, etc. I told Navy, I'm a hundred percent sure you can. You can learn this material if you're up for it. I'm happy to tutor you remotely when you go back to New Orleans. She agrees, she goes back. We start working together, slowly, but surely she gets unit conversion. She gets caught up with her class, littlehead of her class. Then I'd become what I call a tiger cousin. And I call up her school and they.

Said, who are you? I said, I'm her cousin.

Said, who are you? I said, I'm her cousin.

And I actually convinced them to let her retake a placement exam because I thought, like, well, she knows her material now, and they did, and she went from being like a for lack of better word, to remut, like in a slower track, to not being in a faster track.

And I actually convinced them to let her retake a placement exam because I thought, like, well, she knows her material now, and they did, and she went from being like a for lack of better word, to remut, like in a slower track, to not being in a faster track.

So I was like, well, this is cool. Like I'm able to connect with a young cousin.

So I was like, well, this is cool. Like I'm able to connect with a young cousin.

I start tutoring her younger brother's words preadient, the family free tutoring is going on. Before I know it, I'm tutoring ten to fifteen cousins, family friends. You know, I saw a common pattern that they were struggling, not because they weren't going to good schools, not because they didn't have good teachers, not because they weren't hard working or bright. It's because they had gaps in their learning, especially in a topic like math. But even you know, part of the reason we were having trouble in science was gaps sometimes in their math. So I started writing software for them to kind of give them practice them being your cousins, my cousins. Yeah, this was back in the day. If you had to look for practice problems on factoring polynomials, there were stuff on the internet, but they weren't very good and they were very inconsistent. It's like, well, I think I could write a little piece of software that'll generate problems for them, and then I want to keep track of how they're doing. And then that was the first conducaut I mean, nothing to do with videos. Then this was two thousand and five.

I start tutoring her younger brother's words preadient, the family free tutoring is going on. Before I know it, I'm tutoring ten to fifteen cousins, family friends. You know, I saw a common pattern that they were struggling, not because they weren't going to good schools, not because they didn't have good teachers, not because they weren't hard working or bright. It's because they had gaps in their learning, especially in a topic like math. But even you know, part of the reason we were having trouble in science was gaps sometimes in their math. So I started writing software for them to kind of give them practice them being your cousins, my cousins. Yeah, this was back in the day. If you had to look for practice problems on factoring polynomials, there were stuff on the internet, but they weren't very good and they were very inconsistent. It's like, well, I think I could write a little piece of software that'll generate problems for them, and then I want to keep track of how they're doing. And then that was the first conducaut I mean, nothing to do with videos. Then this was two thousand and five.

Then how many people were using it?

Then how many people were using it?

Initially just my cousins, and I was seeing benefit and I could keeping track of them. Yeah, ten to fifteen cousins, and then words started to spread. Their friends started to sign up to it because they're like, oh, this is really helping me get good at math, and so their friends and at some point had to shut it down. There got to about ten thousand folks who were trying to use just the software, and it was taking down my thirty dollars a month web hosting, and that wasn't engineered perfectly either to scale to that. So I actually just didn't allow anyone else to sign up, which is like the opposite of Silicon Valley, Like, no, I don't like it, there's too many people here. And then and I was showing this software off at a dinner party. And by this point we had moved out to northern California, and I was at a dinner party in San Mateo and the host and I was showing off this stuff I was making, and she said, well, how are you scaling your lessons. I'm like, I'm not. He's like, whight you record some videos on YouTube for your family. I said, that's a dumb idea. You know that's cat's playing piano. That's not serious. But I did it anyway. Two thousand and six, Okay, and yeah, I just started making mini lessons. Actually YouTube forced them to be mini lessons at a ten minute limit at the time, on things that I found myself having to re explain to my cousins a lot, Like I'd explain least common multiple to one of my cousins one week and then the next week, I'm re explaining it to another cousin, and so I said, well, okay, I know least common multiples shows up a lot, you know, negative exposed.

Initially just my cousins, and I was seeing benefit and I could keeping track of them. Yeah, ten to fifteen cousins, and then words started to spread. Their friends started to sign up to it because they're like, oh, this is really helping me get good at math, and so their friends and at some point had to shut it down. There got to about ten thousand folks who were trying to use just the software, and it was taking down my thirty dollars a month web hosting, and that wasn't engineered perfectly either to scale to that. So I actually just didn't allow anyone else to sign up, which is like the opposite of Silicon Valley, Like, no, I don't like it, there's too many people here. And then and I was showing this software off at a dinner party. And by this point we had moved out to northern California, and I was at a dinner party in San Mateo and the host and I was showing off this stuff I was making, and she said, well, how are you scaling your lessons. I'm like, I'm not. He's like, whight you record some videos on YouTube for your family. I said, that's a dumb idea. You know that's cat's playing piano. That's not serious. But I did it anyway. Two thousand and six, Okay, and yeah, I just started making mini lessons. Actually YouTube forced them to be mini lessons at a ten minute limit at the time, on things that I found myself having to re explain to my cousins a lot, Like I'd explain least common multiple to one of my cousins one week and then the next week, I'm re explaining it to another cousin, and so I said, well, okay, I know least common multiples shows up a lot, you know, negative exposed.

So I just kept doing it.

So I just kept doing it.

I started emailing them and saying, any question you have, I'll do it asynchronously. You email me the question, I'll give you a video explanation of it.

I started emailing them and saying, any question you have, I'll do it asynchronously. You email me the question, I'll give you a video explanation of it.

Wow.

Wow.

And so we started building up a library of that. And you know, my cousins really appreciated it. I sometimes joke, but it's true. They said they liked me better on YouTube than in person. And what they were saying is that they like the asynchronous, the on demand, the no shame. But we still were getting on the phone and they did appreciate me as a human being being in their life, and we were able to go deeper on the phone. But and yeah, and then one thing led to another. Two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, fifteen to one hundred thousand folks.

And so we started building up a library of that. And you know, my cousins really appreciated it. I sometimes joke, but it's true. They said they liked me better on YouTube than in person. And what they were saying is that they like the asynchronous, the on demand, the no shame. But we still were getting on the phone and they did appreciate me as a human being being in their life, and we were able to go deeper on the phone. But and yeah, and then one thing led to another. Two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, fifteen to one hundred thousand folks.

I was still at the Hedge Fund.

I was still at the Hedge Fund.

I set up as a nonprofit in two thousand and eight, the mission Free World Class Education for Anyone, Anywhere. Two thousand and nine, quit the day job. Two thousand and nine was a hard year, but twenty ten, we got our first real funding to become an organization.

I set up as a nonprofit in two thousand and eight, the mission Free World Class Education for Anyone, Anywhere. Two thousand and nine, quit the day job. Two thousand and nine was a hard year, but twenty ten, we got our first real funding to become an organization.

Wow.

Wow.

And how many people use con Academy now, Oh, you know, it depends on how you account for it. I think we're one hundred and seventy million registered users, but.

And how many people use con Academy now, Oh, you know, it depends on how you account for it. I think we're one hundred and seventy million registered users, but.

You know, not everyone uses it all the time.

You know, not everyone uses it all the time.

You know, in a given year, it's probably closer to about one hundred million folks are using it.

You know, in a given year, it's probably closer to about one hundred million folks are using it.

Incredible.

Incredible.

I mean, that must make you the biggest single educator and now I know you have a whole team of people doing it now, but the biggest educational organization in the world.

I mean, that must make you the biggest single educator and now I know you have a whole team of people doing it now, but the biggest educational organization in the world.

I would assume. Yes, it depends how you account for it.

I would assume. Yes, it depends how you account for it.

Yeah, I mean, but in some ways yeah, yeah, I mean some people can make an argument that you know, YouTube amongst other things, does some stuff. But yeah, I look, but I always point out to the team that's nice. But we have a long way to go because even of that one hundred million, there's probably about three million that are like really getting a lot out of it. They're using it almost like you know, regularly, and those people are really getting an education.

Yeah, I mean, but in some ways yeah, yeah, I mean some people can make an argument that you know, YouTube amongst other things, does some stuff. But yeah, I look, but I always point out to the team that's nice. But we have a long way to go because even of that one hundred million, there's probably about three million that are like really getting a lot out of it. They're using it almost like you know, regularly, and those people are really getting an education.

Incredible.

Incredible.

Okay, So now we find ourselves in twenty twenty five and AI is on the scene, and so how are you using AI in the con academy.

Okay, So now we find ourselves in twenty twenty five and AI is on the scene, and so how are you using AI in the con academy.

Yeah, And I remind my because it's very easy to get nambored with technology, especially things as cool as generative AI. We had a preview if you rewind up two two and a half years summer of twenty twenty two. Sam Altman and Greg Brockman reach out to me at the time and it's just this kind of cryptic email saying and I didn't know them that well. I'd run into them at some conferences and this and that, and they said, Hey, we're training our new model. We think this is the one that's going to really get people interested. We want to launch with some social positive use cases that you GPT four it ended up being GPT four And this was this was about five months before chat GPT came out, which actually was a bit of an accident. Chat which and Chat GPT wasn't even built on GPT four. It was built on GPT three point five. But when they emailed me, I was like, I was curious. I had seen GPT two and GPT three. I thought they were very cool, but I didn't think there were anywhere close to ready for prime time.

Yeah, And I remind my because it's very easy to get nambored with technology, especially things as cool as generative AI. We had a preview if you rewind up two two and a half years summer of twenty twenty two. Sam Altman and Greg Brockman reach out to me at the time and it's just this kind of cryptic email saying and I didn't know them that well. I'd run into them at some conferences and this and that, and they said, Hey, we're training our new model. We think this is the one that's going to really get people interested. We want to launch with some social positive use cases that you GPT four it ended up being GPT four And this was this was about five months before chat GPT came out, which actually was a bit of an accident. Chat which and Chat GPT wasn't even built on GPT four. It was built on GPT three point five. But when they emailed me, I was like, I was curious. I had seen GPT two and GPT three. I thought they were very cool, but I didn't think there were anywhere close to ready for prime time.

But as a nerd, I just wanted to see what they were going to do. So two weeks later they had finished the training and they had myself and our chief Learning officer, Kristin. We were on a zoom with them and they had a little chat interface and this was new too.

But as a nerd, I just wanted to see what they were going to do. So two weeks later they had finished the training and they had myself and our chief Learning officer, Kristin. We were on a zoom with them and they had a little chat interface and this was new too.

People don't remember these, you know, just even have a chat interface with an AI. And they had an ap biology question and there's actually context why they picked ap biology. But they said, so, what's the answer and I said, oh, c it's osmosis. And then they clicked enter and the AI said, oh the answer ce. I'm like, okay, ask it why. It explained it. And people are used to this now, but in the summer of twenty twenty two, this was different than anything anyone had ever seen before. And I'm like, okay, this is weird. Ask it why the other choices are incorrect? It explained it beautifully, I said, ask it tried another question like that.

People don't remember these, you know, just even have a chat interface with an AI. And they had an ap biology question and there's actually context why they picked ap biology. But they said, so, what's the answer and I said, oh, c it's osmosis. And then they clicked enter and the AI said, oh the answer ce. I'm like, okay, ask it why. It explained it. And people are used to this now, but in the summer of twenty twenty two, this was different than anything anyone had ever seen before. And I'm like, okay, this is weird. Ask it why the other choices are incorrect? It explained it beautifully, I said, ask it tried another question like that.

It did a great job. And that's when I was like, oh, what is this like? Am I being punked?

It did a great job. And that's when I was like, oh, what is this like? Am I being punked?

Like?

Like?

But we saw it before, not all of open AI even saw it. But then they gave Kristen myself access to it over the weekend and we couldn't sleep, and we couldn't tell anyone about it, Like, because this was the biggest secret, I couldn't tell my wife about it. But I was like middle of the night, I was slacking christ and I was like, look, I just got it to write the Decoration of Independence and the voice of Donald Trump.

But we saw it before, not all of open AI even saw it. But then they gave Kristen myself access to it over the weekend and we couldn't sleep, and we couldn't tell anyone about it, Like, because this was the biggest secret, I couldn't tell my wife about it. But I was like middle of the night, I was slacking christ and I was like, look, I just got it to write the Decoration of Independence and the voice of Donald Trump.

Isn't this hilarious?

Isn't this hilarious?

And I'm writing poems and I'm doing this and look, if you prompt it the right way, can.

And I'm writing poems and I'm doing this and look, if you prompt it the right way, can.

Act as a tutor.

Act as a tutor.

And that's when going back to what Kin Academy was always about. As I mentioned, I started tutoring my cousins and everything that we've done over the last fifteen twenty years, it's really about how do we use technology to approximate elements of a tutor on demand bite sized video kind of approximates an on demand explanation from a tutor. These practice problems that you're doing, the problems that you need to do as opposed to what everyone else is doing.

And that's when going back to what Kin Academy was always about. As I mentioned, I started tutoring my cousins and everything that we've done over the last fifteen twenty years, it's really about how do we use technology to approximate elements of a tutor on demand bite sized video kind of approximates an on demand explanation from a tutor. These practice problems that you're doing, the problems that you need to do as opposed to what everyone else is doing.

That's what you would do with a little bit of a good tutor. They would give you what you need.

That's what you would do with a little bit of a good tutor. They would give you what you need.

And when we realize that you could steer or prompt these this new generation of models to really be not just pretend to be the tutor, but really have strong tutor moves, so to speak.

And when we realize that you could steer or prompt these this new generation of models to really be not just pretend to be the tutor, but really have strong tutor moves, so to speak.

We're like, Okay, this thing has.

We're like, Okay, this thing has.

Issues, It hallucinates, it makes horrible math errors. But if we assume that those things can either be mitigated or they're going to get a lot better, which has happened. This is going to be a game changer for us being able to scale up what we think is world class education, which is more personalization. Giving what Navia had in sal what if every student we could eventually get there.

Issues, It hallucinates, it makes horrible math errors. But if we assume that those things can either be mitigated or they're going to get a lot better, which has happened. This is going to be a game changer for us being able to scale up what we think is world class education, which is more personalization. Giving what Navia had in sal what if every student we could eventually get there.

So let's double click on that idea about an AI tutor, because I heard it talk from Steve Jobs way back in the day, maybe in the nineties or something. He said, just imagine if everyone had Aristotle as a tutor, if I'm remembering what he said, treg But I asked my son about that at someonhere. He's thirteen years old, and I said, you know, hey, what would it be like for you to have Aristotles a tutor? And he's said, I probably wouldn't do much with it. And the reason he said that is because, first of all, his internal model of what he knows and what Aristotle knows from all his writings they're different. So you wouldn't even know what to ask him. But besides that, what he wants to do is be with friends and play video games stuff. So that model of tutor, I think isn't going to work. But what you're doing is different. It's not just someone available to answer questions for you. So tell us about how you think about surfacing information in the learner.

So let's double click on that idea about an AI tutor, because I heard it talk from Steve Jobs way back in the day, maybe in the nineties or something. He said, just imagine if everyone had Aristotle as a tutor, if I'm remembering what he said, treg But I asked my son about that at someonhere. He's thirteen years old, and I said, you know, hey, what would it be like for you to have Aristotles a tutor? And he's said, I probably wouldn't do much with it. And the reason he said that is because, first of all, his internal model of what he knows and what Aristotle knows from all his writings they're different. So you wouldn't even know what to ask him. But besides that, what he wants to do is be with friends and play video games stuff. So that model of tutor, I think isn't going to work. But what you're doing is different. It's not just someone available to answer questions for you. So tell us about how you think about surfacing information in the learner.

No, that's right, and I want to be clear where you know, it's a journey and it's only going to get hopefully better over time. But immediately when we started seeing all this, we said, all right, well, some of the limitations of classic con Academy is you could watch a five minute video, but what if you have a question. If you have a peer around, you could ask them. If you have a teacher around, you can ask them. But what if you're a young girl in Afghanistan and you don't have a school.

No, that's right, and I want to be clear where you know, it's a journey and it's only going to get hopefully better over time. But immediately when we started seeing all this, we said, all right, well, some of the limitations of classic con Academy is you could watch a five minute video, but what if you have a question. If you have a peer around, you could ask them. If you have a teacher around, you can ask them. But what if you're a young girl in Afghanistan and you don't have a school.

What do you do? Then?

What do you do? Then?

If you're working on a on a exercise and you just got stuck. We try to make it as gradual as possible, but sometimes you just get stuck, and that's an that's the most likely time that you'll just engage.

If you're working on a on a exercise and you just got stuck. We try to make it as gradual as possible, but sometimes you just get stuck, and that's an that's the most likely time that you'll just engage.

What if you could get unstuck?

What if you could get unstuck?

So the first iteration of what we called what we still call Conmigo, which is the AI tutor on con Academy, was supporting those use cases. Now, to your point and to your son's point, what we see is about ten fifteen percent. We haven't, you know, had a formal study of this, but what we're observing about ten fifteen percent of students make good use of that. They're the students that if they watch a video, they're still curious. They're like, what about this, or how about this? What if we change this variable? And so they know how to ask that. But there's another eighty percent of students who are like, oh, you know whatever, this isn't my thing. And so what we're realizing is to have the benefits of an Aristotle, and Aristotle was Alexander the great tutor. Aristotle didn't just sit there and wait, I'm guessing, didn't just sit there and wait for Alexander to ask him another question. He said, Okay, this is what we're going to do, young Alexander. And by the way, how come you didn't do your homework. I'm going to go talk to was it Prince phil King Philip or verbal Macedonia?

So the first iteration of what we called what we still call Conmigo, which is the AI tutor on con Academy, was supporting those use cases. Now, to your point and to your son's point, what we see is about ten fifteen percent. We haven't, you know, had a formal study of this, but what we're observing about ten fifteen percent of students make good use of that. They're the students that if they watch a video, they're still curious. They're like, what about this, or how about this? What if we change this variable? And so they know how to ask that. But there's another eighty percent of students who are like, oh, you know whatever, this isn't my thing. And so what we're realizing is to have the benefits of an Aristotle, and Aristotle was Alexander the great tutor. Aristotle didn't just sit there and wait, I'm guessing, didn't just sit there and wait for Alexander to ask him another question. He said, Okay, this is what we're going to do, young Alexander. And by the way, how come you didn't do your homework. I'm going to go talk to was it Prince phil King Philip or verbal Macedonia?

Yeah, his dad, right.

Yeah, his dad, right.

Philip of Macedonia I'm going to go talk to King Philip about you're not doing your work.

Philip of Macedonia I'm going to go talk to King Philip about you're not doing your work.

And that's what I used to do with my cousins.

And that's what I used to do with my cousins.

Yes, I would answer their questions, but most of the time I was driving, I'd be like, this is what we're going to do today because I noticed this, And if they showed up unprepared, I would hold them accountable. And sometimes I would call their mom or their dad up and say, look, you got to make sure they have time for this. And so we are working on ways that the AI can be more proactive.

Yes, I would answer their questions, but most of the time I was driving, I'd be like, this is what we're going to do today because I noticed this, And if they showed up unprepared, I would hold them accountable. And sometimes I would call their mom or their dad up and say, look, you got to make sure they have time for this. And so we are working on ways that the AI can be more proactive.

Now.

Now.

At the end of the day, we do think that that teacher and if a student has access to a teacher, which is true of most of the world we live in, there's parts of the world where they don't, But if they have access to a teacher, the teacher is still the biggest motivational mechanic for students. And so we are thinking about how can the AI both support the teacher as a teaching assistant helping them with some of their tasks, but then also be a connective tissue and the teacher can hold the student accountable on working with the A and then the a I can report back to the to the teacher. So it's a journey on how we can make it more and more part of that loop and it can drive more and more, but once again not replacing the humans, but but optimizing the connection with.

At the end of the day, we do think that that teacher and if a student has access to a teacher, which is true of most of the world we live in, there's parts of the world where they don't, But if they have access to a teacher, the teacher is still the biggest motivational mechanic for students. And so we are thinking about how can the AI both support the teacher as a teaching assistant helping them with some of their tasks, but then also be a connective tissue and the teacher can hold the student accountable on working with the A and then the a I can report back to the to the teacher. So it's a journey on how we can make it more and more part of that loop and it can drive more and more, but once again not replacing the humans, but but optimizing the connection with.

The humans so that they don't have to worry about some of the busy work. Great.

The humans so that they don't have to worry about some of the busy work. Great.

So I want to come back to that point about what this will mean for teachers, but I want to quickly interject something, which is so I'm sort of a history buff, but I blanked on this issue about King Philip of Macedonia and so, but my question is, I mean the question everyone's asking currently is, you know, with AI in the world and that's not going away, what is the importance of memorizing facts?

So I want to come back to that point about what this will mean for teachers, but I want to quickly interject something, which is so I'm sort of a history buff, but I blanked on this issue about King Philip of Macedonia and so, but my question is, I mean the question everyone's asking currently is, you know, with AI in the world and that's not going away, what is the importance of memorizing facts?

How will education change?

How will education change?

Will it be important for children to learn a lot, you know, the Battle of Hastings was ten sixty six, or will it not be so important because they can retrieve that information to a point?

Will it be important for children to learn a lot, you know, the Battle of Hastings was ten sixty six, or will it not be so important because they can retrieve that information to a point?

What's your take on that.

What's your take on that.

I'm solidly in the camp that content knowledge is really valuable because and we've seen this pattern before Calculator comes out in the sixties and seventies, We're like.

I'm solidly in the camp that content knowledge is really valuable because and we've seen this pattern before Calculator comes out in the sixties and seventies, We're like.

Oh, no, one has to learned arithmetic anymore. Well, it turns out.

Oh, no, one has to learned arithmetic anymore. Well, it turns out.

The people who benefit the most from calculators are the people who understood arithmetic and why why They know how to use the tool. They know when the tool can be used, they know when the tool can't be used. They know when there's a precision error in your calculator. You know, they know that one third is the same thing as point three repeating, and so they know that, Like when your calculator shows zero point three two two two two two two two three, they're like, oh, one third, And that's a simple example, but you could imagine other ones. You could not send people to the moon if you only use a calculator but you didn't have an understanding of things like floating point errors, or if you didn't understand things of whereas the calculator have a limitation. Similar thing. Internet comes out, Google comes out. People say, oh, you can web search everything. Why do you need to have any knowledge anymore? It turns out that people with knowledge are going to have much better information. For example, you might have forgotten that it was the Battle of Hastings, but you're you'll be like, hey, you know google, William the Conqueror, what was that battle again?

The people who benefit the most from calculators are the people who understood arithmetic and why why They know how to use the tool. They know when the tool can be used, they know when the tool can't be used. They know when there's a precision error in your calculator. You know, they know that one third is the same thing as point three repeating, and so they know that, Like when your calculator shows zero point three two two two two two two two three, they're like, oh, one third, And that's a simple example, but you could imagine other ones. You could not send people to the moon if you only use a calculator but you didn't have an understanding of things like floating point errors, or if you didn't understand things of whereas the calculator have a limitation. Similar thing. Internet comes out, Google comes out. People say, oh, you can web search everything. Why do you need to have any knowledge anymore? It turns out that people with knowledge are going to have much better information. For example, you might have forgotten that it was the Battle of Hastings, but you're you'll be like, hey, you know google, William the Conqueror, what was that battle again?

Or you know, I remember that the card English.

Or you know, I remember that the card English.

You know, English has a lot of French words in it was it was that related to the Battle of Hastings and and and the Norman conquest. And if you at least have some of that, you wouldn't even begin to ask the right questions. Or let's say that you just have a homework assignment and you copy and paste it into Google this is twenty years ago. You got you got five search results, or YouTube videos start showing up. Unless you have some context and some critical thinking of judging what's solid information or not, you could just be completely misguided. Like if you didn't know it was the Battle of Hastings and you click on a video it's like we're going to talk about William the Conqueror and the Battle of Pudding and you're like, oh, it's the Battle of Pudding. And it might have been a joke video, but you didn't even watch enough of it to like that's going to be a problem. And I see pre AI, those with the most content knowledge are the people in the position to use the Internet for their knowledge work, and they're the ones that I see the difference between when I web search versus when a younger child does, or even some people you know in my family who might not have the full context of what they're searching for. They're doing very superficial searches. They don't know the right questions to ask. Same thing with AI. AI is like can be an intelligent partner with you. Imagine trying to have a philosophical conversation with Aristotle without having read any of Aristotle, or without having read any philosophy, or at least without having talked about it. Or imagine you know, being able to meet Isaac Newton, but you don't. You haven't gotten the basics of physics or calculus down. You can't just tell them like, what's going to happen to this rock? If you should say, hey, does Newton's third law apply here? Because this seems like an edge case, and then you're going to be able to go much much further. So I think content knowledge is actually more important now because if you want to leverage AI, if you want it to amplify your intent, you have to hang with the AI.

You know, English has a lot of French words in it was it was that related to the Battle of Hastings and and and the Norman conquest. And if you at least have some of that, you wouldn't even begin to ask the right questions. Or let's say that you just have a homework assignment and you copy and paste it into Google this is twenty years ago. You got you got five search results, or YouTube videos start showing up. Unless you have some context and some critical thinking of judging what's solid information or not, you could just be completely misguided. Like if you didn't know it was the Battle of Hastings and you click on a video it's like we're going to talk about William the Conqueror and the Battle of Pudding and you're like, oh, it's the Battle of Pudding. And it might have been a joke video, but you didn't even watch enough of it to like that's going to be a problem. And I see pre AI, those with the most content knowledge are the people in the position to use the Internet for their knowledge work, and they're the ones that I see the difference between when I web search versus when a younger child does, or even some people you know in my family who might not have the full context of what they're searching for. They're doing very superficial searches. They don't know the right questions to ask. Same thing with AI. AI is like can be an intelligent partner with you. Imagine trying to have a philosophical conversation with Aristotle without having read any of Aristotle, or without having read any philosophy, or at least without having talked about it. Or imagine you know, being able to meet Isaac Newton, but you don't. You haven't gotten the basics of physics or calculus down. You can't just tell them like, what's going to happen to this rock? If you should say, hey, does Newton's third law apply here? Because this seems like an edge case, and then you're going to be able to go much much further. So I think content knowledge is actually more important now because if you want to leverage AI, if you want it to amplify your intent, you have to hang with the AI.

And there's still going to be work, human centered work.

And there's still going to be work, human centered work.

There's going to be taking care of seniors, things that are very more manual or more human driven hospitality. But I think the knowledge economy where AI is going to become a big part of it, you have to be able to hang with it, and content will matter more.

There's going to be taking care of seniors, things that are very more manual or more human driven hospitality. But I think the knowledge economy where AI is going to become a big part of it, you have to be able to hang with it, and content will matter more.

I agree with you, although I do wonder about memorization versus critical thinking. So how do you think about teaching children critical thinking?

I agree with you, although I do wonder about memorization versus critical thinking. So how do you think about teaching children critical thinking?

At this point here, I'll also sound a little traditionalist. I think it's both.

At this point here, I'll also sound a little traditionalist. I think it's both.

I think it's become very I definitely disagree, like I don't like pure like Victorian era memorize everything like that's not good. But I do think in like Western school systems, it's become fashionable to say any type of memorization is not good, and we're only going to focus on critical thinking and skill development. And the reality is is that I'll speak for myself, A lot of the connections that have formed in my mind are because I knew something and then my brain at some point, Like you know, I every American kid learns about the Louisiana purchase in eighteen oh three, and then later most American kids don't learn about the Napoleonic Wars, even though that was a much more important thing.

I think it's become very I definitely disagree, like I don't like pure like Victorian era memorize everything like that's not good. But I do think in like Western school systems, it's become fashionable to say any type of memorization is not good, and we're only going to focus on critical thinking and skill development. And the reality is is that I'll speak for myself, A lot of the connections that have formed in my mind are because I knew something and then my brain at some point, Like you know, I every American kid learns about the Louisiana purchase in eighteen oh three, and then later most American kids don't learn about the Napoleonic Wars, even though that was a much more important thing.

But if you do learn about the Napoleonic Wars, and they're normally.

But if you do learn about the Napoleonic Wars, and they're normally.

Not connected for anyone right, But at some point you're like, oh, wait, in that other class, I learned like he's sitting here fighting all of these other European powers, and eighteen oh three he actually his navy was defeated. I wonder whether that has anything to do with the Louisiana purchase. And even though they never teach us you in history class, has everything to do with the Louisiana purchase. Napoleon sold it because there's no way he could defend it. It turns out Thomas Jefferson could have just taken Louisiana and Napoleon had no navy to send out because the British had just destroyed it. And that's critical thinking. But in order to create those connections, you had to put the Napoleonic Wars in time and space with the Louisiana purchase, and you have to know where these things are. You have to know where Napoleon is, where England is, where the navy was defeated, where Louisiana is. You're like, oh, critical thinking, I'd be awfully hard to defend Louisiana if I'm sitting here battling all these Europeans and I don't have no navy anymore.

Not connected for anyone right, But at some point you're like, oh, wait, in that other class, I learned like he's sitting here fighting all of these other European powers, and eighteen oh three he actually his navy was defeated. I wonder whether that has anything to do with the Louisiana purchase. And even though they never teach us you in history class, has everything to do with the Louisiana purchase. Napoleon sold it because there's no way he could defend it. It turns out Thomas Jefferson could have just taken Louisiana and Napoleon had no navy to send out because the British had just destroyed it. And that's critical thinking. But in order to create those connections, you had to put the Napoleonic Wars in time and space with the Louisiana purchase, and you have to know where these things are. You have to know where Napoleon is, where England is, where the navy was defeated, where Louisiana is. You're like, oh, critical thinking, I'd be awfully hard to defend Louisiana if I'm sitting here battling all these Europeans and I don't have no navy anymore.

Well, let me see two.

Well, let me see two.

Things from the brain point of view, which is four plasticity to happen. For knowledge to stick, it has to be relevant in some way. And so one of the ways that knowledge becomes relevant for us is when we are curious about something. So if you think, hey, wait, did the employee ack wars have anything to do with it? Then you're curious and you look it up and then it sticks the rest of your life.

Things from the brain point of view, which is four plasticity to happen. For knowledge to stick, it has to be relevant in some way. And so one of the ways that knowledge becomes relevant for us is when we are curious about something. So if you think, hey, wait, did the employee ack wars have anything to do with it? Then you're curious and you look it up and then it sticks the rest of your life.

Great.

Great.

But how do we, as educators and using AI, how do we make things relevant to kids? And how do two AI tutors play part in that? Yeah, That's what I'm excited about.

But how do we, as educators and using AI, how do we make things relevant to kids? And how do two AI tutors play part in that? Yeah, That's what I'm excited about.

And I'll keep giving display because I don't want to make it sound like AI to mar Is is going to make everything perfect. But we're on a path and we've already seen once again that fifteen twenty percent of students who are let's call it proactive and showing more of that curiosity. I've seen it in front of my eyes where they're learning about the amendments of the Constitution. But now with generative AI, they could say, hey, why is this relevant now? And then the IA says, well, actually, back just recently in twenty twenty there was this Supreme Court case and actually that makes a big difference on like executive power, the Chevron doctrine, and.

And I'll keep giving display because I don't want to make it sound like AI to mar Is is going to make everything perfect. But we're on a path and we've already seen once again that fifteen twenty percent of students who are let's call it proactive and showing more of that curiosity. I've seen it in front of my eyes where they're learning about the amendments of the Constitution. But now with generative AI, they could say, hey, why is this relevant now? And then the IA says, well, actually, back just recently in twenty twenty there was this Supreme Court case and actually that makes a big difference on like executive power, the Chevron doctrine, and.

Are like, oh wow, this is a big deal. I never realized.

Are like, oh wow, this is a big deal. I never realized.

So there's apps or like hey, I'm studying entroped, why does this matter? And it's like, no, it actually matters a ton because if you go into this or there's just a study recently, or if you're trying to and so I think that's one of the really powerful things that it. You know, the classic question for every kid, when am I going to need to use this? I consider myself better than most people and being able to answer that question, but even I'll fumble sometimes. But the AI is very good at that, and it's very good at like on conmego, if a student literally asked why do I need to learn this? The first thing that the AI typically does is is, well, what do you care about? And the students I want to be a professional athlete, I want to do this, and it'll actually the I will remember that there's ways to reset it and clear it and so it's not creepy. But like then in the future, it can proactively say, well, you know, since you said you want to be an athlete.

So there's apps or like hey, I'm studying entroped, why does this matter? And it's like, no, it actually matters a ton because if you go into this or there's just a study recently, or if you're trying to and so I think that's one of the really powerful things that it. You know, the classic question for every kid, when am I going to need to use this? I consider myself better than most people and being able to answer that question, but even I'll fumble sometimes. But the AI is very good at that, and it's very good at like on conmego, if a student literally asked why do I need to learn this? The first thing that the AI typically does is is, well, what do you care about? And the students I want to be a professional athlete, I want to do this, and it'll actually the I will remember that there's ways to reset it and clear it and so it's not creepy. But like then in the future, it can proactively say, well, you know, since you said you want to be an athlete.

This molecule, you know, ATP is crucial.

This molecule, you know, ATP is crucial.

You know, you want to maximize your ATP if you're about to you know, run a marathon or something.

You know, you want to maximize your ATP if you're about to you know, run a marathon or something.

So that's the hope.

So that's the hope.

And as AI gets better and better, as it gets multimodal, as it gets you know, we can completely imagine ten years in the future, for sure you're going to You'll put on augmented reality glasses or virtual reality glasses and travel to ancient Rome and try to stop, you know, the assassination of Caesar, or travel into the human brain and try to, you know, diagnose whether this is a you know, an Alzheimer's case, or you know, are there ways that you might be able to address it. So I think that relevance question AI will help. It's not solved it now. I'll say one other thing though, you know, I in my first book, I gave the example of you know, people always talk about relevance, but I was this I don't know. I used to think I was five nine, but I now realize probably closer to five to seven.

And as AI gets better and better, as it gets multimodal, as it gets you know, we can completely imagine ten years in the future, for sure you're going to You'll put on augmented reality glasses or virtual reality glasses and travel to ancient Rome and try to stop, you know, the assassination of Caesar, or travel into the human brain and try to, you know, diagnose whether this is a you know, an Alzheimer's case, or you know, are there ways that you might be able to address it. So I think that relevance question AI will help. It's not solved it now. I'll say one other thing though, you know, I in my first book, I gave the example of you know, people always talk about relevance, but I was this I don't know. I used to think I was five nine, but I now realize probably closer to five to seven.

Five eight.

Five eight.

But I was this that tall kid in high school. But when I was in Pe, I never said, why am I going to have to take an orange ball and have to put it into a ten foot hoop, and this has no relev It had no relevance to my but I was engaged because my friends were there, I was having fun. I didn't feel disengaged. I do think that sometimes the relevance question is missing the mark a bit like math to some degree, the real beauty of math isn't in its ow implication. It's in its inherent beauty in it. It's the thought process of it. And I think the reason why a lot of kids start saying, oh, when am I going to learn this is they have so many gaps that they've disengaged, so they're just protecting their self esteem if you can fill in those gaps. I saw this with my cousins. Some of my cousins were saying, I'm not a math person. I hate math.

But I was this that tall kid in high school. But when I was in Pe, I never said, why am I going to have to take an orange ball and have to put it into a ten foot hoop, and this has no relev It had no relevance to my but I was engaged because my friends were there, I was having fun. I didn't feel disengaged. I do think that sometimes the relevance question is missing the mark a bit like math to some degree, the real beauty of math isn't in its ow implication. It's in its inherent beauty in it. It's the thought process of it. And I think the reason why a lot of kids start saying, oh, when am I going to learn this is they have so many gaps that they've disengaged, so they're just protecting their self esteem if you can fill in those gaps. I saw this with my cousins. Some of my cousins were saying, I'm not a math person. I hate math.

Is that. But once they started getting that personal attention and I'm like, Hey, isn't this cool? Isn't this cool?

Is that. But once they started getting that personal attention and I'm like, Hey, isn't this cool? Isn't this cool?

You can do it this way or this way? Isn't this amazing that this can be described or predicted? They started becoming math people. And not that they thought that they were going to use it in their life, but they just started seeing the beauty in it and they start feeling confident in it.

You can do it this way or this way? Isn't this amazing that this can be described or predicted? They started becoming math people. And not that they thought that they were going to use it in their life, but they just started seeing the beauty in it and they start feeling confident in it.

That's great. You know.

That's great. You know.

Another thing is we as humans are so sensitive to story as opposed to let's say, a bulleted list of points. And so this is one of the things I'm enthusiastic about with AI is can it take complicated things, whether it's history or math or whatever and tell you a story about it.

Another thing is we as humans are so sensitive to story as opposed to let's say, a bulleted list of points. And so this is one of the things I'm enthusiastic about with AI is can it take complicated things, whether it's history or math or whatever and tell you a story about it.

Absolutely, I can create a story. It could create a poem, a song. It can. I think it can create simulations for you where yes, it becomes like the ultimate choose your own eventure. I mean, right now, it could be text based, it's soon going to be a video and visual based. But as we said in the not too far off future, let's call it five ten years, it's going to be able to create a lucid dream for you that puts you in the middle of it all.

Absolutely, I can create a story. It could create a poem, a song. It can. I think it can create simulations for you where yes, it becomes like the ultimate choose your own eventure. I mean, right now, it could be text based, it's soon going to be a video and visual based. But as we said in the not too far off future, let's call it five ten years, it's going to be able to create a lucid dream for you that puts you in the middle of it all.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I want to come back to this point about what this means for teachers. Tell us your thoughts on that.

So I want to come back to this point about what this means for teachers. Tell us your thoughts on that.

I've been saying this for years because even when I started making videos and software, some people said, oh, on demand video does this replace teachers? And my response is I don't think it does. If all a teacher is doing is going up, giving a lecture and leaving. Then yes, maybe on demand video could replace that. And you see that happening in a lot of colleges. They've you know, no one goes in med schools, no one goes to the lecture anymore, because that's what the lectures were. People are watching the recordings of the lectures on double speed, and now they can ask questions to an AI.

I've been saying this for years because even when I started making videos and software, some people said, oh, on demand video does this replace teachers? And my response is I don't think it does. If all a teacher is doing is going up, giving a lecture and leaving. Then yes, maybe on demand video could replace that. And you see that happening in a lot of colleges. They've you know, no one goes in med schools, no one goes to the lecture anymore, because that's what the lectures were. People are watching the recordings of the lectures on double speed, and now they can ask questions to an AI.

So that's that.

So that's that.

But and I've been saying this for years, the ideal classroom has always been, and this go back to Socrates and Plato and Aristotle, is if human beings are getting together in a room, make them interact with each other, have a Socratic dialogue, have a simulation. Have students go into groups and tackle the problem a little bit. Yes, you could give a little bit of a mini lecture, but then make it interactive or maybe out of the thirty students, ten of them really need help with this concept, while the other twenty can actually learn at their own pace or keep working on their project, or work on connuiccuting, whatever. So do the focus intervention with these ten, and then you don't have to bore or lose the other twenty. And then do another focus intervention with the other ten and that type of work. I think most people go into the teaching profession because they actually want to be that teacher that unlocks little sal or, little David, makes them believe in themselves. You know, we all can list five to ten teachers at every stage of our life. It's like that was the teacher that made me believe in myself or made me see wonder in the world, and they change my trajectory. And every teacher wants to be that teacher. And I think whether it's video, whether it's software, and it's AI, if it's used well and the AI is acting as assistant but not trying to replace the teacher, which I don't think it should. I think it could actually free up the teacher to do a lot of that more human element to work.

But and I've been saying this for years, the ideal classroom has always been, and this go back to Socrates and Plato and Aristotle, is if human beings are getting together in a room, make them interact with each other, have a Socratic dialogue, have a simulation. Have students go into groups and tackle the problem a little bit. Yes, you could give a little bit of a mini lecture, but then make it interactive or maybe out of the thirty students, ten of them really need help with this concept, while the other twenty can actually learn at their own pace or keep working on their project, or work on connuiccuting, whatever. So do the focus intervention with these ten, and then you don't have to bore or lose the other twenty. And then do another focus intervention with the other ten and that type of work. I think most people go into the teaching profession because they actually want to be that teacher that unlocks little sal or, little David, makes them believe in themselves. You know, we all can list five to ten teachers at every stage of our life. It's like that was the teacher that made me believe in myself or made me see wonder in the world, and they change my trajectory. And every teacher wants to be that teacher. And I think whether it's video, whether it's software, and it's AI, if it's used well and the AI is acting as assistant but not trying to replace the teacher, which I don't think it should. I think it could actually free up the teacher to do a lot of that more human element to work.

And I know one of the things that you've been looking at is how AI could improve debating, as in, I'm going to take a point.

And I know one of the things that you've been looking at is how AI could improve debating, as in, I'm going to take a point.

And the AI is going to give you the opposite point and tell us about that.

And the AI is going to give you the opposite point and tell us about that.

Yeah, and it's you know, there's actually two projects on the debating let's call it debate, and one is very AI and one is very non AI. But I think they might actually converge. So on Conmigo, we actually have an activity where you can get into a debate with an AI on anything, you know, should the government cancel student debt, should the US maintain military bases around the world, or should it you know, kind of become more isolationist and you can pick either side. The AI will have a polite debate and then actually give you feedback and then you can switch side. So that's where we've got a lot of positive feedback. Students enjoy that it's a safe environment to test ideas without being embarrassed.

Yeah, and it's you know, there's actually two projects on the debating let's call it debate, and one is very AI and one is very non AI. But I think they might actually converge. So on Conmigo, we actually have an activity where you can get into a debate with an AI on anything, you know, should the government cancel student debt, should the US maintain military bases around the world, or should it you know, kind of become more isolationist and you can pick either side. The AI will have a polite debate and then actually give you feedback and then you can switch side. So that's where we've got a lot of positive feedback. Students enjoy that it's a safe environment to test ideas without being embarrassed.

Now we have another project.

Now we have another project.

There's a sister nonprofit to Kind Academy that we still during the pandemic called Schoolhouse dot World. Schoolhouse dot World is all about free live tutoring from other human beings. The way that we're able to give people free live over zoom tutoring from other human beings is through volunteers, and anyone listening can go be a volunteer, and there's a whole mechanism to certify yourself or you can get tutoring. But one of the things we realize a lot of universities and some of the top universities you, Chicago, MIT, Brown, Yale, Caltech. There's thirty others said, Hey, if someone is tutoring on Schoolhouse dot World, so they've certified that they say no physics or they know biology, and they're tutoring other people, we want to know about that for college admissions. And so they have been using it for college admissions. But on top of that, when we went last year, they're like, hey, is there any way that we could leverage this platform to foster like civil dialogue between people, civil debate to your point, And we're like, okay, let's try something a little bit wild. Let's have real people fill out a survey on all the hottest button issues Israel, Palestine, abortion, affirmative action, free speech, gun control, gun control, go down the list, the stuff that people are afraid to talk about because they don't want to lose friendships.

There's a sister nonprofit to Kind Academy that we still during the pandemic called Schoolhouse dot World. Schoolhouse dot World is all about free live tutoring from other human beings. The way that we're able to give people free live over zoom tutoring from other human beings is through volunteers, and anyone listening can go be a volunteer, and there's a whole mechanism to certify yourself or you can get tutoring. But one of the things we realize a lot of universities and some of the top universities you, Chicago, MIT, Brown, Yale, Caltech. There's thirty others said, Hey, if someone is tutoring on Schoolhouse dot World, so they've certified that they say no physics or they know biology, and they're tutoring other people, we want to know about that for college admissions. And so they have been using it for college admissions. But on top of that, when we went last year, they're like, hey, is there any way that we could leverage this platform to foster like civil dialogue between people, civil debate to your point, And we're like, okay, let's try something a little bit wild. Let's have real people fill out a survey on all the hottest button issues Israel, Palestine, abortion, affirmative action, free speech, gun control, gun control, go down the list, the stuff that people are afraid to talk about because they don't want to lose friendships.

Students fill it out.

Students fill it out.

You get paired, either one on one, sometimes two on two with someone with a diametrically opposite point of view. Now what happens on this dialogue project is you're not supposed to it's not a debate, but you're supposed to listen to each other. And at the end of it, you have to with the form represent the other person's point of view. You also have to reflect on whether you think they heard you and represent and then any other reflections on the interaction that you had. And what happens then is you get a rating on your ability to engage in hard conversations. And these colleges are very interested in this as they don't carry your point of view on these issues. They care that they like that you have a point of view, but that you were able to engage in a respectful and thoughtful and you're able to steal man the other person's argument, you're able to represent it. Now, those are both ways to have dialogue in a world where it's getting increasingly polarized, increasingly hard to have these conversations and feel safe. Over time, these might converge a little bit. We are imagining ways that AI. We are already using AI on schoolhouse to give the tutor's feedback after the fact to saying, hey, you know, you probably didn't ask enough questions, or you ignored this one student, or they were actually asking this. Over time is going to be real time. We also imagine this dialogue project the AI might be able to facilitate. We actually haven't had any where people started yelling at each other or got on out. But maybe it can make sure that the conversation. Oh oh, David, you know I can tell your feeling a little sensitive about what Sala said. Sal, is there another way that you might have said that that you know might be a little less triggering?

You get paired, either one on one, sometimes two on two with someone with a diametrically opposite point of view. Now what happens on this dialogue project is you're not supposed to it's not a debate, but you're supposed to listen to each other. And at the end of it, you have to with the form represent the other person's point of view. You also have to reflect on whether you think they heard you and represent and then any other reflections on the interaction that you had. And what happens then is you get a rating on your ability to engage in hard conversations. And these colleges are very interested in this as they don't carry your point of view on these issues. They care that they like that you have a point of view, but that you were able to engage in a respectful and thoughtful and you're able to steal man the other person's argument, you're able to represent it. Now, those are both ways to have dialogue in a world where it's getting increasingly polarized, increasingly hard to have these conversations and feel safe. Over time, these might converge a little bit. We are imagining ways that AI. We are already using AI on schoolhouse to give the tutor's feedback after the fact to saying, hey, you know, you probably didn't ask enough questions, or you ignored this one student, or they were actually asking this. Over time is going to be real time. We also imagine this dialogue project the AI might be able to facilitate. We actually haven't had any where people started yelling at each other or got on out. But maybe it can make sure that the conversation. Oh oh, David, you know I can tell your feeling a little sensitive about what Sala said. Sal, is there another way that you might have said that that you know might be a little less triggering?

Or David, can you tell sal a way.

Or David, can you tell sal a way.

That he might have said that that you would have appreciated things like that? I could imagine AI facilitating that type of thing.

That he might have said that that you would have appreciated things like that? I could imagine AI facilitating that type of thing.

Oh great, And what do you think is the future of AI in terms of assessments instead of taking standardized tests? What's the future in five years?

Oh great, And what do you think is the future of AI in terms of assessments instead of taking standardized tests? What's the future in five years?

Like everything?

Like everything?

It's I mean, if if we're living in a science fiction book and standardized tests I have historically defended because I've said, look, to get good at anything, you have to measure it, And would you prefer unstandardized measurement you want to be able to benchmark. Now, the problem that most people have with sanitized tests, which I also agree with, is if you want something that's consistent and standardized and scalable, it's got to be you know, fairly narrow in what it can measure. So most standardized tests are multiple choice or just numeric entry. They don't let you do a lot of open ended things. And unfortunately, yes, they do measure some things that are of value, but they can't measure how well you could write a longer paper, or how well you can design something, or how well you can problem solve things. What's exciting about generative AI is yes, I do think in the next in fact, we're working on this kind of the future of assessment. We can incrementally add layers on top of traditional standardized assessment. So you can ask a student, Okay, you picked C. Can you explain your reasoning? Why do you think you pick C? Or even after you you actually got this one wrong, do you think it was a careless mistake or do you think you know there was an error?

It's I mean, if if we're living in a science fiction book and standardized tests I have historically defended because I've said, look, to get good at anything, you have to measure it, And would you prefer unstandardized measurement you want to be able to benchmark. Now, the problem that most people have with sanitized tests, which I also agree with, is if you want something that's consistent and standardized and scalable, it's got to be you know, fairly narrow in what it can measure. So most standardized tests are multiple choice or just numeric entry. They don't let you do a lot of open ended things. And unfortunately, yes, they do measure some things that are of value, but they can't measure how well you could write a longer paper, or how well you can design something, or how well you can problem solve things. What's exciting about generative AI is yes, I do think in the next in fact, we're working on this kind of the future of assessment. We can incrementally add layers on top of traditional standardized assessment. So you can ask a student, Okay, you picked C. Can you explain your reasoning? Why do you think you pick C? Or even after you you actually got this one wrong, do you think it was a careless mistake or do you think you know there was an error?

What was your error?

What was your error?

And if you can give some of that subjective insights to teachers, it becomes more actionable. Then they know what to do with it. Reading comprehension instead of what was the author's intent? You know ABCD, you could say, before you see the choices in your own words, what do you think the author's intent was?

And if you can give some of that subjective insights to teachers, it becomes more actionable. Then they know what to do with it. Reading comprehension instead of what was the author's intent? You know ABCD, you could say, before you see the choices in your own words, what do you think the author's intent was?

Now look at the choices.

Now look at the choices.

Now if you fast forward five years, ten years, I think it's going to feel very much like a job interview or like an oral thesis defense at a university. And I know people's alarm bells start going off of a bias and this and that and a it can be creepy and data and all that, But I always point out, like job interviews and these rich assessments like thesis defense oral exams are rich, but they're incredibly biased, and they're incredibly inconsistent. Right now, you know, even if you're getting interviewed by the same person, depending on their mood, depending on the day of the week, you could get a completely different experience with that person. If we can get AI, and if we can benchmark AI and test AID and make sure, okay, two people equivalent, one is African American, one is Asian, is giving the same signal because other than race, these two simulated candidates are completely identical. So you can benchmark an AI in ways that you can't benchmark a human being. But if you can do that, I think AI is going to You're going to be able to have standardized assessments that feel a lot like a job interview, that feel a lot like a simulation or a game or a problem solving that I think can really broaden the oppertunity. I mean even things like sense of humor, or communication skills or body language.