In the Market with Janet ParshallJoin us as we wing our way to the Land of Oz and hear what David Robertson has to say about a thing or two. He will tackle subjects like: If you know a corporation is supporting abortion, do you support that corporation? Why is Denmark fighting over its religious heritage? And why does a former leader in Scotland push back against the idea that only biological women are women? Learn how to apply the Word to the world around us.
Hi friend, thanks so much for downloading this broadcast and it is my hope that you'll hear something that will challenge you, grow you up in him, and get you out into the marketplace of ideas. But before you start listening, let me take a moment and tell you what this month's truth tool is. It's the Mediterranean Sea Rules by Robert Morgan. I talked to him often on the air because he's such a superb writer, and in this particular book, he takes the story of Paul's shipwreck, recorded in the book of acts, and gives us ten principles of how we push through the storm, learning to trust in God and all that he has done for us. It's a magnificent book. It's a short book, and in typical Robert Morgan writing style, it is a powerful book. I strongly recommend that you have a copy of The Mediterranean Sea Rules, because trust me, every single one of us will find ourselves on stormy seas at some point in our voyage through life. As for your copy of the Mediterranean Sea Rules by calling 877 58, that's 877 Janet 58 or go online to in the market with Janet Parshall. Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the book. Click it on, Make Your Gift and we'll send you a copy. My way of saying thank you because we are listener supported radio. Your gifts keep this broadcast on the air. By the way, if you'd like to give regularly, you're called a partial partner. You give every single month a level of your own choosing. You always get the truth tool. But in addition, I'll send out a weekly newsletter that only my partial partners get. It contains my writing and a little audio piece as well. So pray about it and thanks in advance. Just call eight 7758 or online at in the Market with Janet Parshall. Again the truth tool the Mediterranean Sea rules. Thanks so much. And now please enjoy the broadcast.
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
Americans worshiping government over God.
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
The Palestinians and the Israelis negotiated a truce.
Hi, friends. Welcome to in the market with Janet Parshall. A very happy Wednesday to you. I hope you're having a great week, and I hope you have your passports ready, because we're going to wing our way down under. We're going to the Land of Oz, where we're going to catch up with our very favorite Scottish apologist who has a thing or two to say about a thing or two. David Robertson will join us in just a wee bit, but we're going to turn our eyes, as we do so often to Israel. Why? Well, if you're going through life with a Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other, Israel's your northern star. You don't want to take your eyes off of what's happening in Israel. And I find the nation of Turkey absolutely fascinating. Do you? I mean, if you open that Bible, the map in the back of your Bible, how much of Paul's missionary journeys were taking place actually in Turkey? Ephesus as an example. Right. There's so much going on in that country. And we have this interesting relationship geopolitically with Turkey and NATO, and whether or not they should or should not be a member, and they are ardently an Islamic state. And President Erdogan is Ardently Islamist in his worldview, and so does it come as any surprise that, as a Islamist, that he would have great feelings against Israel? And now they're making threats? I want you to hear more on this from CBN's Julie Stahl. Have a listen.
The concern is Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan may have aspirations that are even greater than Iran's.
If we are talking about the influence in Syria, he already took the place of Russia and Iran. But I think given the Ottoman glorious past, I think his ambitions are far more bigger than Iran's.
Born and raised in Turkey. Hi. Etan Cohen monitors its actions for the Moshe Dayan Center, as well as the Jerusalem Institute for Strategy and Security. He tells CBN news one shouldn't underestimate Erdogan when he insists the borders of Turkey are larger than they are now.
We do see the boundaries of the Ottoman Empire. So as much as Belgrade, he is talking about Jerusalem as. As much as Athens. He is talking about, you know, other cities like Cairo and other cities inside the Middle East. So I don't think that it is limited within the boundaries of the Middle East.
The Ottoman Empire, also known as the Turkish Empire, began more than 700 years ago, eventually controlling Southeast Europe as well as parts of West Asia, North Africa and the Middle East up to the early 20th century. After World War One, the Allied powers partitioned the Ottoman Empire, including what became known as Palestine, says December's fall of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad opened the door for Erdogan to implement his goal of reviving an empire, beginning with Syria.
We all witnessed that since the beginning of the Syrian civil war, the Turkish president provided everything he has to the Syrian opposition, and he is turning the Syrian administration as his core ally by providing some civilian services like paving the roads, paving railways, providing radars and, uh, you know, repairing airports and other facilities. Uh, Turkey is creating here a very important dependency from the Syrian side.
And Turkey is the only country declaring an intention to build up the new Syrian army, while the U.S. has demanded that it destroys its chemical weapons and renounce terrorism. President Trump recently offered to smooth out any difficulties between Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Erdogan.
Any problem that you have with Turkey, I think I can solve. I mean, as long as you're reasonable, you have to be reasonable.
He says it's also the first time the U.S. could have access to Syria, which used to be under Russia's thumb and is now being influenced by Turkey, a NATO member.
Now Donald Trump has the opportunity to penetrate into Syria and maybe to play a role for its reconstruction. You know, the name of the game here is money. And since we are talking about the US president and he's a very successful businessman, I believe that the last thing that the American president is looking for in Syria is friction between the state of Israel and Turkey.
Julie Stahl CBN news, Jerusalem.
You know it's I'm glad we're listening to this story because it's bringing back to the mind again some of the key players that often get overshadowed by other nation states in the Middle East. For example, ever since the toppling of Bashar Assad, you know, they've not had stability at all. It is it is a broken country, by the way. The Syrian people are amazing people, but they have absolute total instability, which makes them extremely vulnerable right now. So you will remember in his most recent trip now to the Middle East, the president talked about removing sanctions. He got a standing ovation from some in the Saudi kingdom because they thought this might be a way for real restoration and stability to come about vis a vis Syria or Syria. But again, what you find interesting is what Julie pointed out, that Syria was always under the thumb of Russia. So the it's like Lego blocks, to put it quite simply, the intersection between these nations is absolutely fascinating. But it also is important for us, I think, to stop, pull back and then get a biblical view of all of these nations. All of these countries talked about are places that are mentioned very often by a different name, which is why we don't readily recognize them as tying into the headlines of the day. But so many of these areas are discussed in Scripture as well. So I think it's important for us to just continue that journey with the Bible in one hand, the newspaper and the other. I've been thinking about this for the last couple of days, my $0.02. And in today's economy, it's probably worth a penny and a half. But I'm going to share it with you anyway. I was thinking about our mortality. It is appointed unto man once to die, and after that the judgment. Washington is spinning it a different way. I keep a I keep a year's supply of Dramamine in my desk, because you can get seasick listening to the spin on some of these stories. But I was thinking about how every single one of us will someday stand before the Lord, and there will be a judgment, and the world will be divided into two camps. Those who said, yes, Lord, and received him as Savior, and those who said no and walked away. And in that walking away, they didn't walk away temporarily. They will have walked away eternally. So we get the opportunity to choose whether we want to spend eternity with God, or we want to be eternally separated. And you know, when that moment comes, it's not going to make a hill of beans difference. Whether or not you were a pope or whether you were a president, whether you were a pauper or you were a prince. So I think now of a recent president now diagnosed with an aggressive form of prostate cancer into his bones. He had all the plaudits and all the pleasures that came with being president of the United States. But now he is looking at the coming of his stepping into eternity. Two things I ask of us. Number one, we pray for him and his family because I don't know what they know when they knew it. All I know is that nobody wants to hear the word cancer. Nobody wants to hear the word metastasize, and nobody likes it when it's staged going into the bones. And number two, if the past president of the United States of America does not know the Lord as his personal Savior, that he may come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ before he breathes his last. That's part of praying for those in authority back after this. Life. Storms can make us feel shipwrecked and lost. But there's wisdom in Scripture's most dramatic sea voyage. In Mediterranean Sea Rules, Robert Morgan reveals powerful principles from Paul's shipwreck in the Book of Acts. Ten biblical rules that will equip you to navigate life's toughest waters with confidence and courage. As for your copy of The Mediterranean Sea Rules, when you give a gift of any amount to in the market, call eight 7758. That's eight 7758 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. All aboard! We're going to wing our way down under to the Land of Oz. David Robertson's there. He is a Scottish Presbyterian minister who's currently the Minister of Scots. Kirk, Newcastle, New South Wales in Australia. He is a former moderator of the Free Church of Scotland, having served for 33 years and not one but two Presbyterian churches in the Highlands of Scotland. Because somebody's got to serve the Lord there and in the city of Dundee. He's a broadcaster, a writer, a blogger, a columnist. He hosts The Quantum of the weekly podcast. Brilliant, because what he does in that podcast is what he does when he comes and visits with us on a regular basis. Now, here's the metaphysics I don't get, so I'll just lay the facts out. I'm talking to you today here on the eastern seaboard of these United States of America, and it is Wednesday. I am now talking to David Robertson, where it is the morning in New South Wales, and it is Thursday. So from an eschatological vantage point. David, my friend, does that mean that Jesus doesn't come for me tomorrow because it's tomorrow there and you're still there? So I'm pretty sure the rapture hasn't occurred yet.
Yeah. You know, John, what I love about you is you keep admitting your ignorance and you know how you don't get it. Look, what you need to understand is it actually doesn't matter where I am in the world. I'm Scottish, therefore, I'm at least a day ahead of most Americans.
You'll get a hearty amen from me on that. I have Scottish blood coursing through my veins as well. I'm glad you're doing well, sir. Tell me about. First of all, you know, every once in a while New South Wales shows up in the papers here in the United States, which I think is interesting. What's the political climate like there?
Um, it's very, very interesting. I think it was, um, was it Tim Keller or one famous and well-known, uh, an excellent American pastor who said that America was a nation of Indians governed by Swedes. And what he meant was that the popular population were generally much more religious and conservative, and those who govern were much more atheistic. And I think that pretty well describes the situation here. New South Wales is a very prosperous place and has, you know, excellent healthcare, education and so on. But, uh, we've just had an election here for the whole of Australia. And, I mean, I like elections, I listen to elections. I even sat up all night and watched the US election. Um, I found it fascinating. I mean, uh, maybe your politics aren't that great, but you sure know how to make them entertaining. And I enjoyed it. Uh, but this was so boring and bland. And I think one of the problems here is at a very, very basic level, this nation has come to rely on its wealth rather than on the Lord. Um, Australia describes itself as the lucky nation. Uh, from a Christian perspective, we should be saying the blessed nation, uh, we have phenomenal resources. I mean, where I am in Newcastle, New South Wales, this is the largest coal port in the world. We export $120 billion worth of coal every year, which is interesting because US and the UK and elsewhere, everyone's talking about net zero. Uh, absolute rubbish. Because we're I mean, we're closing the six power plants we've got in Australia in order to get to net zero in Australia. We're exporting enough coal to fuel China's two new power plants that they are building per week. Per week. They're building two new ones. And, you know, the thing is, you know, you and I joke about the, um, the time difference and all the rest of it, but in terms of climate and climate change, uh, you can Scotland can go net zero. The US could go net zero. Australia could go net zero. It doesn't make one bit of difference.
Exactly right.
If India and Brazil and China are going to carry on doing what they're doing, and they are going to carry on what they're doing, what they're doing. And by the way, here's the irony. They are using Australian coal to fuel power plants, which are making steel and other things for renewables and solar panels. China has 80% of the world's solar panels. And we're just, you know, we are destroying our own industry for this fantasy, which, you know, anyone can see, but apparently politicians can't see. And that just utterly amazes me. And By the way, one just one other interesting thing. There's a recent report that a lot of the solar panels in the world have that are made by China, have switch off switches within them that can be done remotely. In other words, if we become dependent on this, China could just wipe out our energy grid instantly. So, I mean, there's a madness here that just I, you know, sometimes I think, am I stupid? Am I not seeing something?
But so so let me ask you an aesthetic question. And I'm so glad you brought up the climate, because in full disclosure, one of my favorite just vegging times is to watch a series I'm watching right now. It's about farming in Scotland, and it follows these families, their their multiple seasons. By the way, I can't believe it's popular, but just talk about escapism. I love it because I'm in Scotland the whole time I'm watching it, but it follows these small crofts farms all over Scotland, and you're looking at some of the most spectacular, as close to Eden esque scenery that you can have. And then it's dotted with these big wind turbines. Now, before you left, and left Dundee to move to Australia. Were you beginning to see that encroachment of the wind turbines? And did it bother you that just from an aesthetic viewpoint, it's such a blight on the beautiful land that's there?
You have, you know, you have just triggered me, so I'll not be responsible for what I say now. Um, bother me, bother me. It really bothers me. Um, I can give you lots of examples. I am from the Scottish Highlands, and to watch them being wrecked and ruined by. By this virtue signaling and enormous cost for ordinary people. So I'll give you one example. My mother. It was her 90th birthday last week. She's still going. She lives in a wee house right in the north of Scotland. Absolutely. Gorgeously beautiful view across the what we call the Firth, the Cromarty Firth and the Dornoch Firth. Over to the mountains. Gorgeous. Just really, really gorgeous, even just to sit there and look out the windows. Fabulous. And, uh, outside her window is a wind turbine now. Oh, and it was put there by, uh, the landowner because he didn't want it near his house, which is higher up. Uh, he and the government pays him from a tax that people like my mother pay so that their energy bills are four times what they were a couple of years ago. And, uh, basically, I regard the whole wind turbine thing, certainly in the UK and in Australia, as one of the greatest scams and one of the biggest transfers of wealth. Ironically, billionaire socialists, they call themselves, uh, affirm and support this transfer of wealth from the poorest to the wealthiest.
Unbelievable.
If you've got land and you've got money, you'll make more money.
That's exactly.
Right. It seems profoundly unjust, as well as, uh, spoiling the environment in the area.
I am so glad you shared that with me, because I share the exact same sentiment. Wow. So much to talk about. We're just getting started. David Robertson is with us. I've got a link to the Wee Flea. Fabulous, fabulous work that he does culturally. Observing, always applying the scripture to the world around us. Quite frankly, it doesn't get any better than when David Robertson looks at the world through the lens of scripture back after this. We're visiting with David Robertson. David, where's oh so many hats? And he wears them all beautifully. By the way, he is a writer, broadcaster, blogger, columnist. He hosts The Quantum of the weekly podcast. He is a superb Bible teacher and he's also a Scottish Presbyterian minister, currently serving the Minister of Scots, Kirk, Newcastle, serving as the Minister of Scots Kirk, Newcastle, New South Wales in Australia. And I think that's where I want to go first if I can. David, because you brought to my attention that there is a meeting going on right now that is worth our talking about, and it is the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. Okay, so you're talking to a bunch of Yanks. Is there a distinction between the Church of Scotland and the Free Church of Scotland? And if the answer to that question is yes, what's the difference?
Okay. The answer is yes. And, um, to make it simple ones, the good guys and the others. The bad guys. No. Um. You know, basically, uh, one's the Empire and the other is The Empire Strikes Back. No, we are the Church of Scotland was. And I'm using, uh, you can ask me why later. Why? I'm saying was a fairly broad Presbyterian church. In other words, had a significant number of evangelicals, uh, traditionally reformed, but a large, uh, more liberal element and a lot in between. Um, it was by far the biggest church in Scotland, and that's no longer the case. The Free Church was, um, a small conservative evangelical church, um, I think a recent survey in the UK said that it's one of only 2 or 3 traditional that is pre 1900 denominations, which is growing in the UK. It's not massive, but it's certainly an encouraging sign what's happened with it. So it would be an evangelical Presbyterian church pretty well. The Church of Scotland would be equivalent to the Pcusa. And again, there's significance in that with their assembly. And uh, the Free Church of Scotland would probably be much more, uh, the Presbyterian Church of America, the PCA or the Evangelical Presbyterian Church of America or something, you know.
So looking at the org chart, just in fact, I read just this just today, I thought it was interesting that the leading contender for the position of the Archbishop of Canterbury is a woman. Now, that's the Church of England. Does the is there an archbishop for the Church of Scotland? If you could say that there's the Church of England and the Church of Scotland. Do they have the same hierarchy in Scotland for the Church of Scotland as they do for the Church of England?
No. In theory we're much more egalitarian, actually. In practice we probably are. Um, the nearest thing you would have is the moderator of the General Assembly and your moderator for a year. And in theory, you're meant to just moderate the assembly. Um, that's what I did for the Free Church when I was moderator. They didn't want to give me any kind of power in case I actually used it for something. Um, you know, so it's it's the Church of Scotland. Moderate at the moment is very interesting. Is is a woman, uh, again, fairly liberal. What's fascinating for me watching this assembly and this I, I think I did count, but the vibe of it is, um, the feminization of the church. When that begins to happen, you find that men leave. And this, to me, seems to be an assembly that's dominated by women with a feminist agenda. And and I'm sorry to say this, with a far greater preponderance of female American voices than I've ever known. Now there are some female American voices. I love to hear yours being the main one. Um, but I you know, these are. If you consider it this way to me, it's not even that they're women, actually. It's where they're coming from. These are the kind of Yale Harvard elites. These are the people you see on X or on YouTube who are doing their LGBT blessing services for homosexual animals or something. You know, I mean, the more bizarre it is, the more they seem, you know, to affirm it. And, uh, the Pcusa is a classic example of a church that when you say go woke, go broke. Uh, it's living off the legacy of the past financially, uh, pretending to be hugely significant. Um, it is progressives at prayer. except they probably don't even do the prayer bit very well. And I would say the Church of Scotland is really headed down that route and it's in freefall. So, uh, in the 1950s, you'd have 1.2 million members out of a population of 4.5 million, uh, people in Scotland. It's now down to below 250,000. But in reality, this assembly, we were told the attendance was around 60,000. And even that is being generous. Churches are closing the denominations. Magazine, it was announced, was closing at this assembly. Uh, they keep talking in fantasy language about revitalization and renewal and so on, but they're not going to be renewed because in so on, so many issues, including same sex marriage, they've rejected what Christ says. So why should Christ bless a church which turns away from him?
Yeah, and I love history, and I particularly love the history of the Church of Scotland, because John Knox is deemed to be the founder, John Knox, by the way, Mary, Queen of Scots, said of John Knox, I fear the preaching of Knox more than any army that may be mounted against me. Knox tutors King James. Well, he wasn't a king at the time, but he was being prepared eventually to become the king. He becomes the first one to unite England and Scotland together without shedding a drop of blood. The King James Bible comes out of this, by the way. Uh, but he was tutored by John Knox. So when you think of the people who gave their lives during that time, George Wizard and Patrick Hamilton, whose initials are there at the University of Edinburgh, right there in the bricks, uh, you just see how far these churches have fallen away. But again, that's part of our story here in the States, too, isn't it, David, when we look at Princeton and Harvard and Yale founded as seminaries to great, great men of God to preach the great gospel message, look, we lost our way back after this. As a Christian, how do you digest the cultural issues of our day and in the market? We believe that understanding happens when we bring biblical truth to expose the darkness in our world, that's what we do every day and in the market. May I ask you to join us? When you become a partial partner, your monthly gift ensures this daily program continues. Become a partial partner today by calling 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet parshall.org. David Robertson is with us. He's joining us all the way from the Land Down Under, where he serves as a Scottish Presbyterian minister currently at the Scots Kirk, Newcastle, New South Wales in Australia. But he's also much more than that. He's a wonderful writer, a blogger, a columnist, a broadcaster, host, the quantum of the weekly podcast. And he's an excellent writer, by the way, had a piece that showed up a few days ago in Christian today, not to be confused with Christianity Today, entitled Assisted Suicide Scotland's Shame. Talk to me about this, David.
Yeah. Um, again, I really, you know, this is an issue that affects so many people in the, in, in the US, of course, different states have different From policies. Um. I felt really sad about this. I woke up one morning about ten days ago and just, you know, looked at the news. And there it was from Scotland that the Scottish Parliament had voted in favor of, uh, they call it assisted dying, but that's a lie. I mean, one of the things that your listeners need to be aware of is progressive change the language so that what they're looking for doesn't seem as bad. So, for example, traditional marriage, marriage between a man and a woman was changed to same sex marriage was changed to equal marriage. You know who's going to be against something that's equal? And it's the same, um, you know, abortion and rather than being the killing of a baby is, uh, healthcare, you know, reproductive healthcare, I mean, it's Orwellian in its use of language. Well, what they did was they changed, uh, assisted suicide because that is what it is. It's assisting someone to commit suicide to assisted dying. Now I object to that term. Assisted dying is when you get palliative care. I am, uh, in my work as a pastor, I visit a number of people who are dying. My wife works in a similar role in a care home. And, uh, you know, they're being assisted to die in that. They're being given care. Um, you know, pain relief and so on. And that's what should be. But what's happened in Scotland, another thing that's just a warning for people is they've tried this for years and every time it's been rejected, but they just keep coming back because progressives, they're fundamentalists, they know that they are right and everyone else is wrong. They're on the right side of history and all that language. Um, uh, I, I'm very, very hopeful. Signs from the US are for me that maybe there's a real pushback against that. But, um, in Scotland, that's happened. It's profoundly depressing. In the UK, the national parliament, the same thing is kind of happening as well. And I think our nightmare, with all due respect to your Canadian listeners, is Canada. Um, the the maid.
Yes.
Dying scheme in Canada is horrendous. I've just seen an article and some comments from people who are now arguing that if you're a teenager and you're, um, suicidal, that, hey, look, why don't doesn't the state help you to fulfill your wish? It's the ultimate in autonomy. Well, I'm sorry. So many teenagers I know have been suicidal. Many of us have gone through that. Uh, the last thing we need is the state offering to do what shouldn't be done for us. So that's where it's at. It's very sad. Um, it's in a general sense, it's what I call the culture of death that we think we are God. We think we can kill babies in the womb. We think we can kill the elderly and the sick and the enormous pressure. I know of one lady here in Australia whose husband was severely ill. He was dying, and it cost $500 a day just to keep him in the care home that had to be paid. And you know, you've got children, you've got your inheritance. Someone comes along and says, look, why don't you going to die anyway? Why don't you? Why are you not just killed? And the pressure on people like that is absolutely phenomenal. You know, I again, I'm going back to my mother. She's 90 and I'm, you know, if I try to put her in a care home, I think, uh, I think she'd disinherit me or something, but, I mean, she's in her her, you know, her wheelhouse, as I said, up in the Scottish Highlands, you know, and she goes out and she does her chickens. And I said, mum, one day you're just going to collapse and no one's going to find you, you know, until you're dead. And she said, well, I'll be with the Lord then, you know, I'm just getting on with life and good for her, you know.
Yes.
A lot of frailties and everything else. Good for her. You get on with life. It's the Lord who gives life. It's the Lord who takes it away. And it is to me blasphemy that we think we can take people's lives. We're in charge of people's lives. That's just awful.
But you make a very brilliant and insightful observation. You know, the Bible says it's appointed unto man once to die. So God has already set that date. But we cloud this issue with propagandist terms. You know, it's mercy killing, we call it for a while here in the United States. And the idea was, well, the person who's suffering doesn't want to be a burden. The person watching the person suffering says, isn't this a wonderful way to end your suffering? We wouldn't let our dogs suffer. Why would we let our grandmother suffer so? Isn't it the kind and compassionate thing to do? And I, even in Christian circles, David, I have to tell you that there is oftentimes some very murky thinking about this because we're thinking, well, surely God doesn't want us to suffer. And that takes me to another area. And I think the two connect beautifully here. Not only did you write this excellent article, but you also talked about the issue of suffering recently. And I think the church and the world, you know, the world is going to make up their own mind about suffering. But for the believer, we have been invited to join the fellowship of Christ's suffering. I don't know any other segment of the culture where you're invited to join in to suffering of any kind. In fact, as I read the magazines at the checkout line at my grocery store, they're replete with stories of how to avoid suffering at all costs. Drink this, take this, do this, sleep on that, uh, date this person and all of your suffering issues will go away. Let me appeal to your pastor's heart. What is it about suffering most Christians don't get but should?
Yeah, I think we are. Um, you know, sometimes you swim in a culture and you don't realize how much it's infecting you. And I think we swim in a culture where we almost think that we have a human right not to suffer. And if we do suffer, it's somebody's fault, usually not ours. And, you know, sometimes people will blame God or it's the government, you know, you you trip over a pavement or something or a sidewalk. I believe you call it. And, uh, and, uh, you know, you have to sue someone because it's someone's fault. Now, I think there's a wrong attitude towards suffering. I think the Bible has a great attitude. And by the way, when it comes to assisted dying, I'm not wanting to underplay the seriousness and the struggles of those who die and suffer as they die. I mean it, you know, I do hope that when it's when it's my time that, you know, I'll go to sleep, uh, in this world and I'll wake up in the next, you know, but maybe I won't. Maybe I will have to undergo suffering. I've. I underwent a lot of suffering in 2011 when people thought I was dying. I was in hospital and in a lot of pain. And I would say what the Christian understands is we live in this world where there is suffering. We cannot be made immune from suffering. Some suffering is actually good. I was at the dentist yesterday. Um, I, I hate having a drill put in my mouth. I hate the pain. I don't go around and say to my dentist, you're a horrible person. You like to torture people. As far as I know, he doesn't, um, you know, but, um, it's that's done to prevent me having a greater suffering, and I. And I can't help but think of Dostoyevsky's great quote about those who want to be men of great heart must experience great suffering. And I've noticed that with Christians that the loveliest saints I've met, I mean, I think of somebody like Joni Eareckson Tada, who I met in a lift in Jackson, Mississippi once, believe it or not. And I was such a fanboy of her, you know, I just couldn't believe I just thought, oh, this is this is wonderful. I mean, I hope the lift breaks down so I can, you know, have a long chat with her. It didn't, but I had a wee chat with her. And you know that woman, what extraordinary suffering she she went through and what extraordinary blessings she has brought to people through it. You know, so I can see that. But I can also see that we're in a world where, um, we suffer. And, you know, I think of what Paul says, and, man, he got beaten up, he got whipped, he got put in prison. He was nearly killed, left for dead, stoned. You know, the whole thing betrayed, uh, and everything. And he talks about our light and momentary suffering.
Mhm.
You know, our light and momentary troubles compared with the glory that will be revealed. And, uh, I think that's what we ought to think of. I think it's because we don't think enough of the world to come that we exaggerate, or maybe have it as so much a limited part of our horizon. We have such limited horizons that our suffering appears endless when in reality it's temporary. And here's the big thing the Bible does promise us an endless suffering, and that is what is called hell. To be without God forever. You know this world we are on a journey and where we are going to is is so important. I think so many in the church now no longer believe that. That is why if I want to get money, if I, you know, say, hey, look, give me some money to relieve the temporary suffering of some people. Now I will get far more money from Christians than I will if I say, you know, help me to proclaim the gospel so that people don't suffer in eternity. And that is a very sad reflection of where we are as a church. I think we really need to reflect on all of that. It's not that we glory in suffering. It's not that we want suffering, it's that we recognize it's part of our world. You know, man is born to trouble. As the sparks fly upward. We recognize that. But we also have the solution for suffering in Christ. What the unbeliever does not have, the unbeliever still has a suffering but has no solution. And that was the point of the debate that I was involved in. And it was fascinating.
Well, that was I'm going to ask you about that. In fact, here comes the music. So let me just kind of set the stage. And then when we come back, tell me about this debate. So for people who don't know the show, unbelievable. It's absolutely fabulous. It takes two opposite worldviews and they engage in dialogue back and forth. And so David, having not done this, you used to do it all the time in the UK, came back after several years, did it again. But his debate partner, if you will, was a gentleman by the name of Stephen Law of the University of Oxford. And of course their topic was the problem of suffering some little bit like C.S. Lewis's book, The Problem of Pain. Right. And so I want to hear what that experience was like, especially coming. I'm going to presume from a person who didn't necessarily hold to a biblical centric worldview. And if you don't have a Christ centered worldview, if you, as David just said, are so focused on the temporal that you fail to acknowledge the eternal where there will be no more suffering, your takes different beck after this. By the way, on our information page, I have a link to David's website, the We. That is exactly what you would expect a good Scott to name his website the We Philly.com and absolutely fascinating things just covers the broad spectrum, but he's so culturally attuned. I love the way he makes references to music and art and follows what's going on in the world, but always from a biblio centric perspective, which I think is crucial. Which takes me back to your recent appearance on unbelievable, where you debated Stephen Law of the University of Oxford on the topic of suffering. Tell me a little something about this. Stephen Law first.
So Stephen Law is well known in philosophy circles for making the argument that, um, the existence of evil and good is as much a reason for arguing for an evil God as for a good God. Now, I think the argument is completely facetious. Uh, one point, for example, he says something like God would have to make an enormous statement to, you know, deal with the problem of suffering. I'm going, uh, duh. Yeah, it's called the cross, you know?
Exactly right.
Um, and but he likes he keeps doing this, um, you know, uh, amongst academic philosophers. And I probably wasn't very polite, and I just said, I don't give a hoot about academic philosophers. You know, I actually care about the people who are suffering, and I care about what the solution to it is. And again, this just keeps coming back to this. The world has no solution for suffering. So you kindly mentioned my blog. Um, you know, when we were going through Covid, uh, I was getting a bit frustrated, you know, because here it was ridiculous. We were locked down and, you know, I couldn't speak. And my wife said, why don't you do a kind of mini series every day, Bible teaching and, you know, almost like having coffee. And it was a great idea. So I did coffee with job. Um, I've done, uh, copy with revelation, coffee with John. And right now, actually, I'm doing coffee with Jesus, which is going through the Gospel of John. And it's really slow. I do 3 or 4 minutes. I put it out on TikTok, on YouTube as well. But the reason I'm telling you this story is when I was doing coffee with job, and I love the Book of job. Uh, after a while, this woman wrote me she was an Anglican vicar's wife, and she said, my husband has died. Uh, during his last months of life, we sat down every day and listened to your coffee with job, and she said, it just brought so much comfort. And that for me, that's what I'm interested. I don't just want a doctor who can analyze my pain and tell me how the pain is working. I want to know how to deal with it. And I think that's what the gospel brings. And you know, I for the problem of suffering, I think the problem of suffering is a bigger problem for the non-Christian than it is for the Christian. And I get a bit fed up with Christians. We keep saying, yeah, it's our biggest issue and we have to, you know, keep excusing God. No, we don't have to excuse God. The Bible explains that human beings were made in God's image. We had the opportunity to freely serve him. We chose not to do so. We've been living in a broken world ever since then, which involves a lot of suffering. And to redeem us from that, Jesus God sent his Son to die for us, the ultimate suffering, to suffer our hell for us. And it's through his stripes that our wounds are healed. And I think that is the most beautiful and glorious message. And I thank the Lord that when I leave here today, uh, you know, after talking to you, which has not been a suffering experience at all, at least not for me. Uh, but, um, I, I, I can take this message to, to anybody, to those who are dying, to those who are broken, to those who are addicted, to those who are facing fears and worries and everything else I can I can come and say, cast all your burdens upon him because he cares for you. And that's a wonderful message to have.
Amen. Amen. You know, I think my whole position on suffering changed when I realized that the Western mind in particular, I don't think so much of our persecuted brothers and sisters. I think they expect suffering to be a part of the experience. We are shocked when it happens. You know, we think we come to Christ and then we kind of float on a cloud and everything is perfect after that. It tells me that someone hasn't gotten into the word because once you get there, you've talked about Paul earlier. I'm always struck by his writing from a prison that I have learned in whatsoever state I'm in, to be content. That takes a volitional choice to trust God so much that your circumstances don't define who you are. And they certainly don't define who he is. But you can trust him regardless of your circumstances. But I think this idea of suffering is an ancient one, and it's a global one. Um, but in the West in particular, I think we struggle. Is it because we've had it easier compared to a lot of other people groups on planet Earth who have paid the ultimate price for following Christ, and so they expect it. You know, when you raise your hand to accept Christ as your Savior, in some countries you've signed what is tantamount to your own death warrant. You come forward in an altar call in the United States. That's probably not going to happen. You might have some friends or relatives who sneer, but you're not going to lose your life in the United States as a result of something like that. But the the seminal moment for me was realizing that if Christ hadn't suffered for me, I still get a lump in my throat every time I read that verse that says, he who knew no sin became sin for us. When when I look at this picture of perfection that was Jesus, and he takes on the filth of my sin, and then does, you know, it wasn't a transcendent Hollywood idea, a literary illusion. It was awful. The book of Isaiah says he was beaten beyond recognition. I've been to Israel multiple times. Pick up one of the thorns they've got there. It's this four inch nail. It isn't some little thing on a rose bush. These were hugely awful incidents. And to this day, crucifixion is deemed to be one of the most horrific forms of capital punishment ever. But if he hadn't suffered, I'd be a dead man. So something can come out of suffering.
Yeah. I mean, I look, I agree completely with that. And there's a couple of things you said there that that really, um, I want to back up because when I wrote the book ask, which is questions for teenagers, I got questions from 21 different countries from every continent. And, uh, the fascinating thing was the only countries where people asked questions about suffering were Western countries.
Mhm.
Well, ironically, every single country asked about transgender, which shows the power of the internet. So I found that fascinating. And the other thing is I think with suffering is we have such limited horizons. So I remember being in Jackson, Mississippi, and, you know, the Lord has a sense of humor because I would never have gone to Jackson, Mississippi. Um, but I loved it when I was there, and I loved the people. And I just thought, yeah, the buckle on the Bible Belt. I know that Birmingham claims that. I know lots of other people claim it, but I really like Jackson. But it was quite funny because the church I was, I spent a lot of time with, uh, one of the pastors there. He thought I was seeking to become an assistant pastor or a minister there because, you know, everyone wants to go to Jackson. Who wouldn't want to go to Jackson? I mean, that's and I just thought, man, I'm from Scotland. You horizons are a wee bit limited, you know. Um, and I think that's true of us. I think our horizons are limited. I'm thinking we're thinking about our immediate pain rather than realizing this great and glorious future. See, the Christian attitude to suffering isn't suck it up and see. That's the atheist attitude. You know, the Christian attitude is even our suffering has purpose.
Amen.
You know.
Even the bad things work out for good for those who love the Lord. God will work them out for good.
Oh, what a note to end on, David. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm already looking forward to our next conversation. See you next time, friends.
