Hi friend! Thank you so much for downloading this podcast. It is my sincere hope that you'll hear something that will encourage and edify you, and then will gently but consistently push you out there into the marketplace of ideas so you can let your light so shine for him, so that you can seek the welfare of the city, and you can share the good news of the gospel, because we both know the gospel changes everything. But before you start to listen, I want to tell you about this month's Truth Tool. Lee Strobel is a wonderful, wonderful journalist, a man who started out as an atheist and agnostic and now is very much of a believing Christian, but he still uses all of those great investigative tools as a reporter to investigate the truth of the scriptures. And so one of the books that he's written, and it's my truth tool for the month of October, is Is God Real? Exploring the ultimate question of life. And he's right. It really is the ultimate question Is God real? How can I know him personally? Why am I here? What happens when I die? And so what he does is he taps into people who answer questions like, If God is real, why is there suffering? If God is real, why is he so hidden? The cosmos requires a creator. That's a great interview he did with Doctor William Lane Craig. Or the universe reflects a fine tuner or Easter shows Jesus is God. The list goes on and on and on. It's absolutely a fabulous book for you to be reminded that God is real and you can know him personally, but it's also a wonderful book for you to read and then give to somebody else who's seeking, who doesn't yet know who might be, as we talked about in one of our recent programs, that spiritually curious person who has that God shaped void but just doesn't know how or with whom he should fill it. So read this book. It's absolutely fabulous. It should be a part of your legacy library, because the evidence that Lee Strobel writes about in his book is God Real, is evidence that will stand the test of time. It's a fabulous book, and it's yours for a gift of any amount because we're listener supported radio. Just call 877. Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Give a gift of any amount and ask for your copy of Is God Real? If it's easier, do it online at in the market with Janet parshall.org. Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the cover. It's beautiful. Is God real? Make your donation online and I'll send it to you if you like. Consider becoming a partial partner. Those are the friends that give every single month at a level of their own choosing. They're always offered the truth tool, and in addition to that, they get a weekly newsletter that includes some writing on my part and an audio piece. So if you'd like to be a partial partner giving every single month, you can use the same two ways. 877 Janet 58 or online at in the market with Janet parshall.org. Don't forget Lee Strobel's book is God Real? Is this month's truth tool. Yours for a gift of any amount. Thanks so much for listening and now please enjoy the broadcast.

Hi friend! Thank you so much for downloading this podcast. It is my sincere hope that you'll hear something that will encourage and edify you, and then will gently but consistently push you out there into the marketplace of ideas so you can let your light so shine for him, so that you can seek the welfare of the city, and you can share the good news of the gospel, because we both know the gospel changes everything. But before you start to listen, I want to tell you about this month's Truth Tool. Lee Strobel is a wonderful, wonderful journalist, a man who started out as an atheist and agnostic and now is very much of a believing Christian, but he still uses all of those great investigative tools as a reporter to investigate the truth of the scriptures. And so one of the books that he's written, and it's my truth tool for the month of October, is Is God Real? Exploring the ultimate question of life. And he's right. It really is the ultimate question Is God real? How can I know him personally? Why am I here? What happens when I die? And so what he does is he taps into people who answer questions like, If God is real, why is there suffering? If God is real, why is he so hidden? The cosmos requires a creator. That's a great interview he did with Doctor William Lane Craig. Or the universe reflects a fine tuner or Easter shows Jesus is God. The list goes on and on and on. It's absolutely a fabulous book for you to be reminded that God is real and you can know him personally, but it's also a wonderful book for you to read and then give to somebody else who's seeking, who doesn't yet know who might be, as we talked about in one of our recent programs, that spiritually curious person who has that God shaped void but just doesn't know how or with whom he should fill it. So read this book. It's absolutely fabulous. It should be a part of your legacy library, because the evidence that Lee Strobel writes about in his book is God Real, is evidence that will stand the test of time. It's a fabulous book, and it's yours for a gift of any amount because we're listener supported radio. Just call 877. Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Give a gift of any amount and ask for your copy of Is God Real? If it's easier, do it online at in the market with Janet parshall.org. Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the cover. It's beautiful. Is God real? Make your donation online and I'll send it to you if you like. Consider becoming a partial partner. Those are the friends that give every single month at a level of their own choosing. They're always offered the truth tool, and in addition to that, they get a weekly newsletter that includes some writing on my part and an audio piece. So if you'd like to be a partial partner giving every single month, you can use the same two ways. 877 Janet 58 or online at in the market with Janet parshall.org. Don't forget Lee Strobel's book is God Real? Is this month's truth tool. Yours for a gift of any amount. Thanks so much for listening and now please enjoy the broadcast.

Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.

Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.

The conference was over. The president won a pledge.

The conference was over. The president won a pledge.

Americans worshiping government over God.

Americans worshiping government over God.

Extremely rare safety move by.

Extremely rare safety move by.

A major 17 years. The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated. We hear a lot of.

A major 17 years. The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated. We hear a lot of.

Hi friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. So glad we're going to spend the hour together. So if I've caught you on your commute home and you're keeping your eyes on the road and you're driving defensively and carefully, all those things you were taught by your hands, right? Tell me your hands are at ten and two, right? My bigger, more important question is, first of all, thanks for letting me drive along with you. So how are you feeling right now? How was your day at work? Was it a stressful day or was it a real stressful day? Because basically it was a day like many other days, and in reality, you're dangerously close to burnout. You didn't even have what my mom used to call the fumes to keep going, let alone your gas tank being full. And you know when you talk about stress, by the way, my my vantage point from the peanut gallery is I think we're a highly stressed society. Would you agree? Yeah, I thought so. So why are we so stressed and why in particular? And maybe this is a good place to start with this conversation. Why is this burnout issue relevant not just in the church, but even more relevant in some ways because we've gotten some bad Bible, as we used to call it in my house growing up, that somehow if you weren't doing, doing, doing, doing, and if you weren't running, running, running, and you weren't serving, serving, serving, then somehow you were lackluster. No fruit producing, kind of weak Christian. And so we've taken this to a whole nother level in the church, which means this whole idea of stress is an even more important conversation for us in the church. So that's what we're going to talk about this hour. So if you had a bad day, if you're stressed out, just take one of those deep cleansing breaths, all the while driving safely, by the way, and I want you to have your heart and your mind addressed this hour as we talk about something called stress fracture. Isn't that a great title? It's written by one Jonathan Hoover, who serves as the senior associate pastor at Newspring Church in Wichita, Kansas. He also works as an assistant prof. At Regent University School of Psychology and Counseling, where he is the director of the Master of Science in Psychology program. So how often do you get to talk to somebody who's a pastor, a professor and a psychologist all wrapped into one. I'm thrilled. Jonathan, thank you so much. I loved your book, Stress Fracture Your Ultimate Guide to Beating Burnout. I made a statement. Tell me if I'm way off or if you sense the same thing to why is burnout not just a problem in a church, but it seems to be a kind of heightened problem in the church. Is it bad theology?

Hi friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. So glad we're going to spend the hour together. So if I've caught you on your commute home and you're keeping your eyes on the road and you're driving defensively and carefully, all those things you were taught by your hands, right? Tell me your hands are at ten and two, right? My bigger, more important question is, first of all, thanks for letting me drive along with you. So how are you feeling right now? How was your day at work? Was it a stressful day or was it a real stressful day? Because basically it was a day like many other days, and in reality, you're dangerously close to burnout. You didn't even have what my mom used to call the fumes to keep going, let alone your gas tank being full. And you know when you talk about stress, by the way, my my vantage point from the peanut gallery is I think we're a highly stressed society. Would you agree? Yeah, I thought so. So why are we so stressed and why in particular? And maybe this is a good place to start with this conversation. Why is this burnout issue relevant not just in the church, but even more relevant in some ways because we've gotten some bad Bible, as we used to call it in my house growing up, that somehow if you weren't doing, doing, doing, doing, and if you weren't running, running, running, and you weren't serving, serving, serving, then somehow you were lackluster. No fruit producing, kind of weak Christian. And so we've taken this to a whole nother level in the church, which means this whole idea of stress is an even more important conversation for us in the church. So that's what we're going to talk about this hour. So if you had a bad day, if you're stressed out, just take one of those deep cleansing breaths, all the while driving safely, by the way, and I want you to have your heart and your mind addressed this hour as we talk about something called stress fracture. Isn't that a great title? It's written by one Jonathan Hoover, who serves as the senior associate pastor at Newspring Church in Wichita, Kansas. He also works as an assistant prof. At Regent University School of Psychology and Counseling, where he is the director of the Master of Science in Psychology program. So how often do you get to talk to somebody who's a pastor, a professor and a psychologist all wrapped into one. I'm thrilled. Jonathan, thank you so much. I loved your book, Stress Fracture Your Ultimate Guide to Beating Burnout. I made a statement. Tell me if I'm way off or if you sense the same thing to why is burnout not just a problem in a church, but it seems to be a kind of heightened problem in the church. Is it bad theology?

I think bad theology plays into it. And by the way, thank you so much for having me on. I love your show. But yeah, I do think bad theology plays into it, because there is a sense in which I think we have the impression that God wants us to push ourselves beyond our limits. And I think that happens a lot in the church because there are so many good things we can do. There are so, so many volunteer roles that we can, uh, lean into. Obviously, you know, the main roles of our life, parenting, work. There's all these things that are good, they're not bad, they're wonderful. But there can be this sense that if I'm a good Christian, I will do them all. All the things I'm going to do, all the things. And unfortunately, it it ignores the fact that we're finite human beings. We can only do so much. And at a certain point we're going to run out of steam. And, you know, that's what burnout is all about.

I think bad theology plays into it. And by the way, thank you so much for having me on. I love your show. But yeah, I do think bad theology plays into it, because there is a sense in which I think we have the impression that God wants us to push ourselves beyond our limits. And I think that happens a lot in the church because there are so many good things we can do. There are so, so many volunteer roles that we can, uh, lean into. Obviously, you know, the main roles of our life, parenting, work. There's all these things that are good, they're not bad, they're wonderful. But there can be this sense that if I'm a good Christian, I will do them all. All the things I'm going to do, all the things. And unfortunately, it it ignores the fact that we're finite human beings. We can only do so much. And at a certain point we're going to run out of steam. And, you know, that's what burnout is all about.

Yeah. Exactly. Right. So thank you for affirming that, because like I said, from where I sit on my little perch, I see this a lot that somehow the idea, in fact, I'll use a word that I learned years ago that this is about ontological being. God loves me, period. Not God loves me, comma, where I have to add all these other things. And that was that was a struggle in my life. For years I thought that, oh boy, I wanted to have a pair of burned out tennis shoes on my gravestone because I ran with perseverance that race. And then I thought, Janet, he wants to just sit and be with him. Okay. So that's that was a seminal shift in the way I looked at life. So if it happened for me, I bet other people were struggling with it as well. The other thing too, is just talk to me, particularly from your vantage point, because you got all the wonderful letters after your name. We hear that the words stress is a killer often is something that gets repeated in our culture, that's not just a flippant observation. That's true. There's a physiological, mental, emotional and spiritual impact that stress has on our life, does it not?

Yeah. Exactly. Right. So thank you for affirming that, because like I said, from where I sit on my little perch, I see this a lot that somehow the idea, in fact, I'll use a word that I learned years ago that this is about ontological being. God loves me, period. Not God loves me, comma, where I have to add all these other things. And that was that was a struggle in my life. For years I thought that, oh boy, I wanted to have a pair of burned out tennis shoes on my gravestone because I ran with perseverance that race. And then I thought, Janet, he wants to just sit and be with him. Okay. So that's that was a seminal shift in the way I looked at life. So if it happened for me, I bet other people were struggling with it as well. The other thing too, is just talk to me, particularly from your vantage point, because you got all the wonderful letters after your name. We hear that the words stress is a killer often is something that gets repeated in our culture, that's not just a flippant observation. That's true. There's a physiological, mental, emotional and spiritual impact that stress has on our life, does it not?

Oh absolutely. Right. Because and really stress is a stress is a good thing up to a certain level. Right. There's what's called eustress or good stress. And that is that God designed me to lean into challenge both physically, emotionally, spiritually. God designed me to stretch myself. That's a good thing. But just like a person who works out at the gym and stretch them stretches themselves so much that they harm themselves, you can overdo that. And that's when we get to what we call bad stress or distress, right? So once we get into that distress category, we're going to start having issues with our physiology. Bodily inflammation is going to become a really big deal right. You're going to start to have muscle aches and pains. You're going to start to have severe headaches. There's all sorts of different things that can start to happen that we look for that physical cause. Why am I feeling this way? And often we totally neglect the fact that maybe I'm feeling this way because I've just stretched myself too much. I'm doing more than more than I was designed to do, and as a result, my body is paying the price. And the thing, Janet, that's really difficult about it is you start to feel bad and you go to the doctor, and the doctor who cares about you runs a bunch of tests and comes back and says, we can't find anything. Then you feel crazy. Then you're like, what is wrong with me? Because I hurt? But they don't. They tell me nothing's wrong with me. But stress will will do that. It'll mimic body symptoms because it's our bodies trying to tell us our God given physiology is trying to say this is too much. And when that happens, it can really start to hurt. But there won't necessarily be a test we can run that will tell you this is why you're hurting. And so it's so important to be paying attention to whether or not we're pushing ourselves too far.

Oh absolutely. Right. Because and really stress is a stress is a good thing up to a certain level. Right. There's what's called eustress or good stress. And that is that God designed me to lean into challenge both physically, emotionally, spiritually. God designed me to stretch myself. That's a good thing. But just like a person who works out at the gym and stretch them stretches themselves so much that they harm themselves, you can overdo that. And that's when we get to what we call bad stress or distress, right? So once we get into that distress category, we're going to start having issues with our physiology. Bodily inflammation is going to become a really big deal right. You're going to start to have muscle aches and pains. You're going to start to have severe headaches. There's all sorts of different things that can start to happen that we look for that physical cause. Why am I feeling this way? And often we totally neglect the fact that maybe I'm feeling this way because I've just stretched myself too much. I'm doing more than more than I was designed to do, and as a result, my body is paying the price. And the thing, Janet, that's really difficult about it is you start to feel bad and you go to the doctor, and the doctor who cares about you runs a bunch of tests and comes back and says, we can't find anything. Then you feel crazy. Then you're like, what is wrong with me? Because I hurt? But they don't. They tell me nothing's wrong with me. But stress will will do that. It'll mimic body symptoms because it's our bodies trying to tell us our God given physiology is trying to say this is too much. And when that happens, it can really start to hurt. But there won't necessarily be a test we can run that will tell you this is why you're hurting. And so it's so important to be paying attention to whether or not we're pushing ourselves too far.

Yeah. Wow. What a wonderful way to start this conversation. Early on in the book, you actually have a chart and you give us a test and it tells me you're an excellent teacher because you want us to own this information. So you have questions at the back and you have a multiple graphics in the book, which I just love. But you also ask us to do a personal inventory by simply asking the question, are you burned out? What are some of the things I should start to identify that tell me. Uh oh, my meter is in the wrong part of the scale here.

Yeah. Wow. What a wonderful way to start this conversation. Early on in the book, you actually have a chart and you give us a test and it tells me you're an excellent teacher because you want us to own this information. So you have questions at the back and you have a multiple graphics in the book, which I just love. But you also ask us to do a personal inventory by simply asking the question, are you burned out? What are some of the things I should start to identify that tell me. Uh oh, my meter is in the wrong part of the scale here.

Well, and I don't have that checklist right in front of me. So I'll tell you what I would tell somebody if they just asked me as I was passing in the hall. Exhaustion is the big one when you just feel like. So you know what it's like to be physically exhausted, right? You know what it's like when you have just pushed yourself beyond what you can do physically. All right, well, transport that over to your emotions to where you just feel like you don't have anything left to give anybody. Right. So even the people that you love the most, your spouse, your kids, people at work, people that you used to, you, you used to write emotional checks to them. I will give you of my compassion. I will give you of my caring. I will give you of my time. Suddenly you feel like I don't have anything to.

Well, and I don't have that checklist right in front of me. So I'll tell you what I would tell somebody if they just asked me as I was passing in the hall. Exhaustion is the big one when you just feel like. So you know what it's like to be physically exhausted, right? You know what it's like when you have just pushed yourself beyond what you can do physically. All right, well, transport that over to your emotions to where you just feel like you don't have anything left to give anybody. Right. So even the people that you love the most, your spouse, your kids, people at work, people that you used to, you, you used to write emotional checks to them. I will give you of my compassion. I will give you of my caring. I will give you of my time. Suddenly you feel like I don't have anything to.

Write checks off of anymore. I just I feel kind of numb and empty. Right. And when that happens, then, you know, I'm really starting to potentially deal with burnout.

Write checks off of anymore. I just I feel kind of numb and empty. Right. And when that happens, then, you know, I'm really starting to potentially deal with burnout.

Excellent. And that's just one. Let me ask if I can. Jonathan, will we come back for a couple more? This book is wonderful, by the way, because all of us deal with stress. And remember, Jonathan just talked about this and he's got lots of graphs in the book about good stress versus distress. And so how do we find that balance between the two? And when we come back, let's talk about a few more things that just might be an indication that you are starting to are in burnout, and why this is something that needs to be addressed. The new book, Stress fracture back after this. Does God Exist? Is a question that resonates deeply inside all of us. Who doesn't want to know where we come from and where we go after we die? That's why I've chosen is God real? As this month's truth tool get overwhelming evidence about the existence of God, ask for your copy of Is God Real? When you give a gift of any amount to in the market, call 877 58, that's 877 58 or go to in the market with Janet parshall.org. Such an important conversation with Doctor Jonathan Hoover. He serves as senior associate pastor and relationship coach of Newspring Church in Wichita, Kansas. Also works as an assistant professor at Regent University School of Psychology and Counseling. He's there as the director of the Master of Science and Psychology program. He has a great book out called Stress Fracture. Isn't that good? You know, you talk about a stress fracture when you break a bone. This is talking about your emotional, mental and spiritual life as well. And in it, he provides your ultimate guide to beating burnout. So I'm lingering on some of these terms first, Jonathan, just so people can start to move toward some of the suggestions by understanding what the issue is. So you said if I stopped in the hall and I asked you, hey, how do I know if I'm burned out? You talked about exhaustion. Tell me some more.

Excellent. And that's just one. Let me ask if I can. Jonathan, will we come back for a couple more? This book is wonderful, by the way, because all of us deal with stress. And remember, Jonathan just talked about this and he's got lots of graphs in the book about good stress versus distress. And so how do we find that balance between the two? And when we come back, let's talk about a few more things that just might be an indication that you are starting to are in burnout, and why this is something that needs to be addressed. The new book, Stress fracture back after this. Does God Exist? Is a question that resonates deeply inside all of us. Who doesn't want to know where we come from and where we go after we die? That's why I've chosen is God real? As this month's truth tool get overwhelming evidence about the existence of God, ask for your copy of Is God Real? When you give a gift of any amount to in the market, call 877 58, that's 877 58 or go to in the market with Janet parshall.org. Such an important conversation with Doctor Jonathan Hoover. He serves as senior associate pastor and relationship coach of Newspring Church in Wichita, Kansas. Also works as an assistant professor at Regent University School of Psychology and Counseling. He's there as the director of the Master of Science and Psychology program. He has a great book out called Stress Fracture. Isn't that good? You know, you talk about a stress fracture when you break a bone. This is talking about your emotional, mental and spiritual life as well. And in it, he provides your ultimate guide to beating burnout. So I'm lingering on some of these terms first, Jonathan, just so people can start to move toward some of the suggestions by understanding what the issue is. So you said if I stopped in the hall and I asked you, hey, how do I know if I'm burned out? You talked about exhaustion. Tell me some more.

Yes.

Yes.

So that would be your lack of ability to give emotion. Another big symptom is the lack of ability to regulate emotion less than what you used to have. So you find yourself being more impulsive or more easily agitated, or just things that you used to be able to sort of keep that pendulum swing of emotion more regulated, and you start to notice that you have a hard time doing that. You start to dread sometimes whatever it is that's really stressing you out, it doesn't have to be work. Usually we talk about burnout only related to work, but burnout can be related to any major stressful thing in your life. And so whatever that is, you begin to dread it and you kind of wish you didn't have to go back to it, even if you used to love it. And then one other thing is just starting to notice that your ability to keep track of things. This is kind of an interesting finding in the research that our memory and our ability to just kind of manage the daily tasks that are flying at you, just from a logic standpoint, starts to kind of go downhill. And so when you start noticing, man, I'm not thinking as clearly, I'm more easily agitated. I don't feel like I have any emotional energy to give people, and I'm having a hard time kind of regulating my emotions. Wow, that is a classic profile of what it looks like when you're going through burnout.

So that would be your lack of ability to give emotion. Another big symptom is the lack of ability to regulate emotion less than what you used to have. So you find yourself being more impulsive or more easily agitated, or just things that you used to be able to sort of keep that pendulum swing of emotion more regulated, and you start to notice that you have a hard time doing that. You start to dread sometimes whatever it is that's really stressing you out, it doesn't have to be work. Usually we talk about burnout only related to work, but burnout can be related to any major stressful thing in your life. And so whatever that is, you begin to dread it and you kind of wish you didn't have to go back to it, even if you used to love it. And then one other thing is just starting to notice that your ability to keep track of things. This is kind of an interesting finding in the research that our memory and our ability to just kind of manage the daily tasks that are flying at you, just from a logic standpoint, starts to kind of go downhill. And so when you start noticing, man, I'm not thinking as clearly, I'm more easily agitated. I don't feel like I have any emotional energy to give people, and I'm having a hard time kind of regulating my emotions. Wow, that is a classic profile of what it looks like when you're going through burnout.

Exactly. I love the fact that not only do you understand the nuances of the human mind and the dynamics of mental health and interpersonal relationships, but you're also a pastor, so I love the fact that you turn to the Bible to give us an example of somebody who suffered from burnout. Before I read this part of the book, I stopped and I thought, who would I pick? As somebody who I would say was evidence of burnout? And I'm so glad that you picked this particular person. Talk to us about why this person is an example of burnout in the scriptures.

Exactly. I love the fact that not only do you understand the nuances of the human mind and the dynamics of mental health and interpersonal relationships, but you're also a pastor, so I love the fact that you turn to the Bible to give us an example of somebody who suffered from burnout. Before I read this part of the book, I stopped and I thought, who would I pick? As somebody who I would say was evidence of burnout? And I'm so glad that you picked this particular person. Talk to us about why this person is an example of burnout in the scriptures.

Oh, Elijah is just your prototypical burnout person because Elijah is a person who he's got such a colorful personality, he bursts on the scene, he's doing all these incredible things for God. There's all these miracles happening through his ministry, and you just have the impression that this person moves at 100 miles an hour, and it just seems almost as though he's superhuman. And we know that's not true from a biblical sense, but there are those people that you're around where you're like, wow, they can just seems like they can handle more than other people can handle. And I think Elijah looked like that. And then you have this huge showdown at Mount Carmel that should have just been like the high moment of his life. And then suddenly Jezebel says, hey, I'm going to take you out. Now, he had always been under the threat of death by Ahab and Jezebel. That wasn't new, but now he's under this threat of death and suddenly something snaps. And every person I've interviewed in a leadership role that's been burned out can take me back to the place where they felt something snap inside, and they were like, I went from being okay to not being okay. And you see what happens with Elijah? He leaves the realm of his ministry. He goes completely out of Israel proper into the desert. He leaves his, um, his assistant, and he sits down under a tree and says, God, take me out. I'm ready for you to end my life and in my ministry. And you think? You think where is the Elijah that we knew? This is a completely different person, but that's what burnout looks like. We totally lose that energy because we've spent it all, and suddenly it's like a whole new person shows up and that person is depressed and they're sort of fatalistic, and they withdraw from people they love, withdraw from things that they love. Of course, the good side of this, and I can say this both from reading Elijah's story and from watching my dad, who experienced a nervous breakdown back in 2010. The good news is you don't have to stay that way. You can you can come back from that just as Elijah did. But it is important for us to know that it's not a failure of faith when a person is sitting under that tree and saying, I don't think I can go on, it can be a failure to recognize that they were pushing themselves too hard.

Oh, Elijah is just your prototypical burnout person because Elijah is a person who he's got such a colorful personality, he bursts on the scene, he's doing all these incredible things for God. There's all these miracles happening through his ministry, and you just have the impression that this person moves at 100 miles an hour, and it just seems almost as though he's superhuman. And we know that's not true from a biblical sense, but there are those people that you're around where you're like, wow, they can just seems like they can handle more than other people can handle. And I think Elijah looked like that. And then you have this huge showdown at Mount Carmel that should have just been like the high moment of his life. And then suddenly Jezebel says, hey, I'm going to take you out. Now, he had always been under the threat of death by Ahab and Jezebel. That wasn't new, but now he's under this threat of death and suddenly something snaps. And every person I've interviewed in a leadership role that's been burned out can take me back to the place where they felt something snap inside, and they were like, I went from being okay to not being okay. And you see what happens with Elijah? He leaves the realm of his ministry. He goes completely out of Israel proper into the desert. He leaves his, um, his assistant, and he sits down under a tree and says, God, take me out. I'm ready for you to end my life and in my ministry. And you think? You think where is the Elijah that we knew? This is a completely different person, but that's what burnout looks like. We totally lose that energy because we've spent it all, and suddenly it's like a whole new person shows up and that person is depressed and they're sort of fatalistic, and they withdraw from people they love, withdraw from things that they love. Of course, the good side of this, and I can say this both from reading Elijah's story and from watching my dad, who experienced a nervous breakdown back in 2010. The good news is you don't have to stay that way. You can you can come back from that just as Elijah did. But it is important for us to know that it's not a failure of faith when a person is sitting under that tree and saying, I don't think I can go on, it can be a failure to recognize that they were pushing themselves too hard.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amen. Oh, and isn't it wonderful when he's. And I just love the fact that you picked him because he has the smackdown on the top of Mount Carmel, and the next thing you know, he's on the run, which is just amazing to me. But when he's there, God brings him food and water in the most wonderful ways. So that tells me something right away, which is there's a physicality to stress as well. And you talk about that in the book. Stress can really break us down physically. So how important is it to take good care of ourselves physically when we're in high periods of stress?

Amen. Oh, and isn't it wonderful when he's. And I just love the fact that you picked him because he has the smackdown on the top of Mount Carmel, and the next thing you know, he's on the run, which is just amazing to me. But when he's there, God brings him food and water in the most wonderful ways. So that tells me something right away, which is there's a physicality to stress as well. And you talk about that in the book. Stress can really break us down physically. So how important is it to take good care of ourselves physically when we're in high periods of stress?

Well, it's absolutely important. And you see that in the in the account with Elijah, because not only does the angel make Elijah sleep, he makes him eat twice, right, more than once. So there's this idea that Elijah had really been neglecting his own self-care. And and I think one of the challenges in our culture is we can worry that we are too focused on our physical health because we understand we're eternal beings and we have a future in heaven. And so there can almost be this weird Christian backlash that's like, you shouldn't care too much about your body. Well, that that flies in the face of the idea of our body being the temple of the Holy Spirit, and that we belong to the Lord. And so we stewardship demands that we take good care of ourselves. And, you know, the three, the three legs of that tripod that are most important are diet, sleep and exercise. The formula hasn't changed much. God made Elijah eat. He made him sleep. And he made him take a super long walk, right? And after all these years, that formula still remains pretty important when it comes to taking care of yourself.

Well, it's absolutely important. And you see that in the in the account with Elijah, because not only does the angel make Elijah sleep, he makes him eat twice, right, more than once. So there's this idea that Elijah had really been neglecting his own self-care. And and I think one of the challenges in our culture is we can worry that we are too focused on our physical health because we understand we're eternal beings and we have a future in heaven. And so there can almost be this weird Christian backlash that's like, you shouldn't care too much about your body. Well, that that flies in the face of the idea of our body being the temple of the Holy Spirit, and that we belong to the Lord. And so we stewardship demands that we take good care of ourselves. And, you know, the three, the three legs of that tripod that are most important are diet, sleep and exercise. The formula hasn't changed much. God made Elijah eat. He made him sleep. And he made him take a super long walk, right? And after all these years, that formula still remains pretty important when it comes to taking care of yourself.

Wow.

Wow.

Let me linger, because that's such an astute observation, and I'm so thankful that you pulled it right out of the word of God. So this is not, ladies and gentlemen, psychobabble. This is biblical health. By the way, the best health manual in the world is the Word of God. So diet, sleep and exercise. You know, Jonathan, a lot of people think that if you do that, oh, I'm not into self-care. You know, I'm supposed to deny myself, take up my cross and follow him. The older I get, the more I realize that I can love Jesus with all my heart, my mind, my soul, every nuance of my being, but that it's not an either or proposition. It's a both end. And I need to take care of myself so I can do what the Lord wants me to do. So diet, sleep, and exercise are non-negotiables as you talk about them in the book. In fact, you say they're the three non-negotiables and it's not changed. If God provided this for Elijah in the midst of his burnout, it's there for you and me as well. So much I want to cover in this book. It's absolutely fabulous. Everybody within the sound of my voice is dealing with stress. Hopefully it's the good stress and you haven't gone on the other side of this chart to the distress part. And that's what we're trying to avoid burnout in your life. The book is called Stress Fracture and I want you to read it. It's wonderful. We're going to talk more with Doctor Jonathan Hoover right after this. We have the privilege of spending the hour with Doctor Jonathan Hoover, who has a brand new book out. It's called Stress Fracture Your Ultimate Guide to Beating Burnout. And let me just because I had to rush this because I was coming up to a break. But on these three non-negotiables. I put out the idea, Jonathan, and I think for a lot of believers, again, that there is a reticence, a to take these three non-negotiables that that you talk about, which are germane to all of us and are exemplified in the story of Elijah as well, diet, sleep and exercise. That if I do that somehow, again, this goes back to where we started our conversation about why Christians suffer, I think, from burnout more even than the general population, that if I do those things that somehow I'm not serving the Lord, I'm not being involved in ministry. I've taken the time to take care of me, and surely me is anathema to anything I read in Scripture. You're a pastor and you deal in the world of psychology. Could you slay that dragon for us once and for all, please?

Let me linger, because that's such an astute observation, and I'm so thankful that you pulled it right out of the word of God. So this is not, ladies and gentlemen, psychobabble. This is biblical health. By the way, the best health manual in the world is the Word of God. So diet, sleep and exercise. You know, Jonathan, a lot of people think that if you do that, oh, I'm not into self-care. You know, I'm supposed to deny myself, take up my cross and follow him. The older I get, the more I realize that I can love Jesus with all my heart, my mind, my soul, every nuance of my being, but that it's not an either or proposition. It's a both end. And I need to take care of myself so I can do what the Lord wants me to do. So diet, sleep, and exercise are non-negotiables as you talk about them in the book. In fact, you say they're the three non-negotiables and it's not changed. If God provided this for Elijah in the midst of his burnout, it's there for you and me as well. So much I want to cover in this book. It's absolutely fabulous. Everybody within the sound of my voice is dealing with stress. Hopefully it's the good stress and you haven't gone on the other side of this chart to the distress part. And that's what we're trying to avoid burnout in your life. The book is called Stress Fracture and I want you to read it. It's wonderful. We're going to talk more with Doctor Jonathan Hoover right after this. We have the privilege of spending the hour with Doctor Jonathan Hoover, who has a brand new book out. It's called Stress Fracture Your Ultimate Guide to Beating Burnout. And let me just because I had to rush this because I was coming up to a break. But on these three non-negotiables. I put out the idea, Jonathan, and I think for a lot of believers, again, that there is a reticence, a to take these three non-negotiables that that you talk about, which are germane to all of us and are exemplified in the story of Elijah as well, diet, sleep and exercise. That if I do that somehow, again, this goes back to where we started our conversation about why Christians suffer, I think, from burnout more even than the general population, that if I do those things that somehow I'm not serving the Lord, I'm not being involved in ministry. I've taken the time to take care of me, and surely me is anathema to anything I read in Scripture. You're a pastor and you deal in the world of psychology. Could you slay that dragon for us once and for all, please?

Oh, I would love to. So there's a big difference between self-awareness and self-obsession two very big different things. So let me let me give you this example. My wife and I went on a cruise some years ago, and you could see up on the bridge where the captain was walking back and forth and with the binoculars, looking at the ocean consistently, looking at the ocean to see what was going on. That is being ocean aware. And I need that from the captain. I need the captain to be aware of what's going on with the ocean, so he can make wise choices. Now, on the other hand, if that captain was overboard and, you know, not able to swim and was drowning, that would be ocean absorbed, right? And so our culture, right. As Christians, we don't want to drown in self. We don't want to be obsessed in self. But that can actually come at the cost of our being aware of self. Because we can think if I'm paying attention to my health, if I'm paying attention to my emotional well-being, if I'm paying attention to my habits, if I'm paying attention to, you know, the way that I do things and making adjustments here and there, then what I'm doing is I'm becoming too self-focused. Well, no, actually, awareness of self is a great thing. And as a matter of fact, God calls us to awareness of self. Read the Gospels over and over again. There is a sense in which Jesus is teaching us to be aware of what's going on in our life and make healthy choices. That's not the same thing as drowning in self, which is what Scripture clearly teaches us not to do. So being taking healthy steps to be healthy starts with knowing what's going on in my body and knowing what's going on in my thoughts and my emotions, and I have to start there. That doesn't mean that I'm a selfish person.

Oh, I would love to. So there's a big difference between self-awareness and self-obsession two very big different things. So let me let me give you this example. My wife and I went on a cruise some years ago, and you could see up on the bridge where the captain was walking back and forth and with the binoculars, looking at the ocean consistently, looking at the ocean to see what was going on. That is being ocean aware. And I need that from the captain. I need the captain to be aware of what's going on with the ocean, so he can make wise choices. Now, on the other hand, if that captain was overboard and, you know, not able to swim and was drowning, that would be ocean absorbed, right? And so our culture, right. As Christians, we don't want to drown in self. We don't want to be obsessed in self. But that can actually come at the cost of our being aware of self. Because we can think if I'm paying attention to my health, if I'm paying attention to my emotional well-being, if I'm paying attention to my habits, if I'm paying attention to, you know, the way that I do things and making adjustments here and there, then what I'm doing is I'm becoming too self-focused. Well, no, actually, awareness of self is a great thing. And as a matter of fact, God calls us to awareness of self. Read the Gospels over and over again. There is a sense in which Jesus is teaching us to be aware of what's going on in our life and make healthy choices. That's not the same thing as drowning in self, which is what Scripture clearly teaches us not to do. So being taking healthy steps to be healthy starts with knowing what's going on in my body and knowing what's going on in my thoughts and my emotions, and I have to start there. That doesn't mean that I'm a selfish person.

Mhm.

Mhm.

Thank you for that. Boy if you don't hear anything else this hour I hope you hear that by the way. And I always take great comfort in the fact that Jesus took naps. Jesus sat and ate. You know, I mean he did the and he was walking all the time. He walked to Samaria before he met the woman in John four. So you hear all of these stories, and if it's germane and Jesus's life and he's our standard, well, then it's perfectly okay for us to take care of the physicality of who we are as well, and not think that somehow we're being self-centered. You then segue beautifully from talking about the physical to the emotional, and I'm so glad that you got your dad's permission to talk about the struggle that he had. Can you share some of that with us? Because it's really a story of the emotional toll that stress can take?

Thank you for that. Boy if you don't hear anything else this hour I hope you hear that by the way. And I always take great comfort in the fact that Jesus took naps. Jesus sat and ate. You know, I mean he did the and he was walking all the time. He walked to Samaria before he met the woman in John four. So you hear all of these stories, and if it's germane and Jesus's life and he's our standard, well, then it's perfectly okay for us to take care of the physicality of who we are as well, and not think that somehow we're being self-centered. You then segue beautifully from talking about the physical to the emotional, and I'm so glad that you got your dad's permission to talk about the struggle that he had. Can you share some of that with us? Because it's really a story of the emotional toll that stress can take?

Yes. So in 2010 I started working here at Newspring and we at the time were one of the fastest growing churches in the Midwest. And the church had been through a tremendous transition in style of ministry. And God had just really used my dad greatly. And he had already been here for decades as pastor, and he was always the adult in the room, always the person that people would look to because he had that stability and that balance, even when things were going crazy. I just never saw him as emotionally reactive. He was just always rock solid and had this incredible wisdom. And suddenly in 2010, which actually was after the most stressful season of of the church's transition, he hit that wall and suddenly he was not okay. And he was concerned that he was dying. He was having tremendous anxiety. We were having a hard time just calming him down and helping him know things were going to be okay. He was he was really struggling, even in his own spiritual life to figure things out. But these were things that were when you would hear him talk, you would. You would realize he just isn't okay. Something has gone really wrong and we didn't know really what to do for him. And honestly, Janet, this book came out of the fact that back then we didn't know how to help him. Fortunately, we were able to to get him some guidance and within, you know, 6 to 8 weeks he was back and we were able to sort of transition him back into his role. Since then, he's been better than ever. But I will say this, I was worried that there weren't enough resources to tell Christians, hey, this is this can happen to you and there are things you can do about it. But it was hard for me as a son to watch my dad go through.

Yes. So in 2010 I started working here at Newspring and we at the time were one of the fastest growing churches in the Midwest. And the church had been through a tremendous transition in style of ministry. And God had just really used my dad greatly. And he had already been here for decades as pastor, and he was always the adult in the room, always the person that people would look to because he had that stability and that balance, even when things were going crazy. I just never saw him as emotionally reactive. He was just always rock solid and had this incredible wisdom. And suddenly in 2010, which actually was after the most stressful season of of the church's transition, he hit that wall and suddenly he was not okay. And he was concerned that he was dying. He was having tremendous anxiety. We were having a hard time just calming him down and helping him know things were going to be okay. He was he was really struggling, even in his own spiritual life to figure things out. But these were things that were when you would hear him talk, you would. You would realize he just isn't okay. Something has gone really wrong and we didn't know really what to do for him. And honestly, Janet, this book came out of the fact that back then we didn't know how to help him. Fortunately, we were able to to get him some guidance and within, you know, 6 to 8 weeks he was back and we were able to sort of transition him back into his role. Since then, he's been better than ever. But I will say this, I was worried that there weren't enough resources to tell Christians, hey, this is this can happen to you and there are things you can do about it. But it was hard for me as a son to watch my dad go through.

That, and.

That, and.

To know that even a person who was the strongest person I'd ever known. Because that's the thing we always say, it'll never happen to me. It'll never happen to me, or we'll say it'll never happen to them because they're so strong. And sometimes those are the people that it happens to first.

To know that even a person who was the strongest person I'd ever known. Because that's the thing we always say, it'll never happen to me. It'll never happen to me, or we'll say it'll never happen to them because they're so strong. And sometimes those are the people that it happens to first.

Wow.

Wow.

Well, first of all, thanks to your dad for your permission to be able to tell this story, because here's this. The adult in the room, as you said, this wonderful, mature Christian leader. And yet he has this. So looking back, if you could as the son, tell the father what he needed to do, particularly with all of your training, to avoid exactly what happened, what would he be told to do differently? I mean, there was an ideological shift. You talk about staff that was leaving in the book and how this was hard for him. He was the adult. My guess is he internalizes because he wasn't verbally communicating this to anybody, that he was dealing with this burnout. What would you have told him to do differently? Because if you look at Holmes theory of stress, I would imagine that somewhere near the top of that list is the idea that we're going to radically change the direction of this church. Yeah, I bet that would make the list somewhere. So what would he what should he have done differently?

Well, first of all, thanks to your dad for your permission to be able to tell this story, because here's this. The adult in the room, as you said, this wonderful, mature Christian leader. And yet he has this. So looking back, if you could as the son, tell the father what he needed to do, particularly with all of your training, to avoid exactly what happened, what would he be told to do differently? I mean, there was an ideological shift. You talk about staff that was leaving in the book and how this was hard for him. He was the adult. My guess is he internalizes because he wasn't verbally communicating this to anybody, that he was dealing with this burnout. What would you have told him to do differently? Because if you look at Holmes theory of stress, I would imagine that somewhere near the top of that list is the idea that we're going to radically change the direction of this church. Yeah, I bet that would make the list somewhere. So what would he what should he have done differently?

Well, I always like to think of the the three things that I try to help people do when they're burned out is falling into one of three categories. And you can think of it like, if you did hurt yourself at the gym, if you were lifting too much weight at the gym, one of your options is you can lift less weight.

Well, I always like to think of the the three things that I try to help people do when they're burned out is falling into one of three categories. And you can think of it like, if you did hurt yourself at the gym, if you were lifting too much weight at the gym, one of your options is you can lift less weight.

When I work with executives, that's usually the hardest sell because usually they think that nothing can be eliminated from their task list. They're wrong about that. But that's the first thing. The second thing is to lift it in a different way. Or the third thing is to make healthy choices outside that will help in that stressful arena.

When I work with executives, that's usually the hardest sell because usually they think that nothing can be eliminated from their task list. They're wrong about that. But that's the first thing. The second thing is to lift it in a different way. Or the third thing is to make healthy choices outside that will help in that stressful arena.

Wow, there's more there. And I want you to be able to illustrate. You were pro, you heard the music and we have to take a hard break. So let me pick it up at exactly that point. Doctor Jonathan Hoover is with us. His new book is called Stress Fracture Your Ultimate Guide to Beating Burnout. And the whole purpose of this conversation, by the way, is to help you from not getting into that place on the chart where you are in full blown burnout. To be a good person who's taking inventory in your own life, to be able to avoid some of these problems with burnout. More with Doctor Jonathan Hoover right after this. We can all safely say that society seems to be decaying before our eyes, and in the market, we're tackling the issues head on from a biblical perspective, so you'll know how to influence and occupy. A Scripture says become a partial partner today and support in the market. As a benefit, you'll receive exclusive resources every week prepared just for you. Call 877 Janet 58 or go online to in the market with Janet parshall.org. I'm so glad you're joining us. If you are and you missed the first half, you didn't miss it because you can go to in the market with Janet parshall.org. On the left hand side of the page, two words sitting right next to each other past programs. Click that on and you can download this hour in its entirety so you can listen at your discretion or a more convenient time, or you haven't missed the first half at all. By the way, you can do that for either of the two hours we do every day going back a full year, and you're certainly going to want to do it during this conversation because Doctor Jonathan Hoover is with us. He serves as the senior associate pastor at Newspring Church in Wichita, Kansas. He also works as an assistant professor at Regent University School of Psychology and Counseling, where he is the director of the Master of Science and Psychology program, and he's written a marvelous new book that we're talking about today called Stress Fracture Your Ultimate Guide to Beating Burnout. And we had talked about the physicality of stress and what it can do. And we looked at a representative of that in Elijah. You can read about it in First Kings 18 from what he experienced, from his highs down to his very lows, and how God met his physical needs. But there's also the needs that have to be met emotionally as well. And we were looking at Jonathan's father as a case study, if you will, of a man who was the adult in the room, to quote Jonathan's own words, saw an ideological transition in the church. And it was completed. Right. Excuse me. And it went well. But then when it was all said and done, Jonathan's father had a nervous breakdown. And 6 to 8 weeks later, excuse me, he was back on his feet. But I asked what he would do to turn things around if he could foretell that this was coming, what he might advise his dad. And Jonathan was answering that this is what he would tell anybody who's headed in this direction. And the first thing you said and I wrote them down was lift less weight. And you said that professionals, you know, the type A personalities. This is particularly tough because A I don't want to have to ask anybody. I do it better than anybody else. If you want something done, do it yourself. You can hear all of that and therefore you won't let go. Can I linger there for a minute? There's an interesting subplot, I think, to some of that, and I'm not saying this in your dad's case. I'm saying this generally as a rule that sometimes the belief is nobody else can do it but me. So there's a little bit of pride that works its way through that and a little bit. Yes. And the other part is, is that my doing this is how I define me. And if I let go, my very definition of who I am dissipates. So there's some complexity to this idea, is there not?

Wow, there's more there. And I want you to be able to illustrate. You were pro, you heard the music and we have to take a hard break. So let me pick it up at exactly that point. Doctor Jonathan Hoover is with us. His new book is called Stress Fracture Your Ultimate Guide to Beating Burnout. And the whole purpose of this conversation, by the way, is to help you from not getting into that place on the chart where you are in full blown burnout. To be a good person who's taking inventory in your own life, to be able to avoid some of these problems with burnout. More with Doctor Jonathan Hoover right after this. We can all safely say that society seems to be decaying before our eyes, and in the market, we're tackling the issues head on from a biblical perspective, so you'll know how to influence and occupy. A Scripture says become a partial partner today and support in the market. As a benefit, you'll receive exclusive resources every week prepared just for you. Call 877 Janet 58 or go online to in the market with Janet parshall.org. I'm so glad you're joining us. If you are and you missed the first half, you didn't miss it because you can go to in the market with Janet parshall.org. On the left hand side of the page, two words sitting right next to each other past programs. Click that on and you can download this hour in its entirety so you can listen at your discretion or a more convenient time, or you haven't missed the first half at all. By the way, you can do that for either of the two hours we do every day going back a full year, and you're certainly going to want to do it during this conversation because Doctor Jonathan Hoover is with us. He serves as the senior associate pastor at Newspring Church in Wichita, Kansas. He also works as an assistant professor at Regent University School of Psychology and Counseling, where he is the director of the Master of Science and Psychology program, and he's written a marvelous new book that we're talking about today called Stress Fracture Your Ultimate Guide to Beating Burnout. And we had talked about the physicality of stress and what it can do. And we looked at a representative of that in Elijah. You can read about it in First Kings 18 from what he experienced, from his highs down to his very lows, and how God met his physical needs. But there's also the needs that have to be met emotionally as well. And we were looking at Jonathan's father as a case study, if you will, of a man who was the adult in the room, to quote Jonathan's own words, saw an ideological transition in the church. And it was completed. Right. Excuse me. And it went well. But then when it was all said and done, Jonathan's father had a nervous breakdown. And 6 to 8 weeks later, excuse me, he was back on his feet. But I asked what he would do to turn things around if he could foretell that this was coming, what he might advise his dad. And Jonathan was answering that this is what he would tell anybody who's headed in this direction. And the first thing you said and I wrote them down was lift less weight. And you said that professionals, you know, the type A personalities. This is particularly tough because A I don't want to have to ask anybody. I do it better than anybody else. If you want something done, do it yourself. You can hear all of that and therefore you won't let go. Can I linger there for a minute? There's an interesting subplot, I think, to some of that, and I'm not saying this in your dad's case. I'm saying this generally as a rule that sometimes the belief is nobody else can do it but me. So there's a little bit of pride that works its way through that and a little bit. Yes. And the other part is, is that my doing this is how I define me. And if I let go, my very definition of who I am dissipates. So there's some complexity to this idea, is there not?

Oh, there is. And and I have to tell you, if your motto is if you want something done right, you better do it yourself, then that's the motto of the of the person headed down the tracks to burnout like you're going there. If that's your motto, then that's where you're headed. But not just that. That is the motto of the irreplaceable person. And if, if, if it weren't for the fact that we have a short lifespan on this earth, maybe that would be okay. But all of us, the Scripture tells us, have limited days on this earth, and so we cannot afford to be an irreplaceable person. We should actually be in the process of delegating and training and helping people come in behind us, not just for our own wellbeing, not just for our own ability to manage stress, but also for the fact that if we're the only people who can do something, then we will have left a gargantuan hole someday when we're not here to do it. So that's part of legacy, right? Part of legacy is saying, I choose not to be an irreplaceable person in terms of the tasks that I do.

Oh, there is. And and I have to tell you, if your motto is if you want something done right, you better do it yourself, then that's the motto of the of the person headed down the tracks to burnout like you're going there. If that's your motto, then that's where you're headed. But not just that. That is the motto of the irreplaceable person. And if, if, if it weren't for the fact that we have a short lifespan on this earth, maybe that would be okay. But all of us, the Scripture tells us, have limited days on this earth, and so we cannot afford to be an irreplaceable person. We should actually be in the process of delegating and training and helping people come in behind us, not just for our own wellbeing, not just for our own ability to manage stress, but also for the fact that if we're the only people who can do something, then we will have left a gargantuan hole someday when we're not here to do it. So that's part of legacy, right? Part of legacy is saying, I choose not to be an irreplaceable person in terms of the tasks that I do.

Mm.

Mm.

That's excellent and how important that is. And that's really good Bible applied to good mental health as well. So the second thing you would advise is lift in a different way. What do you mean by that.

That's excellent and how important that is. And that's really good Bible applied to good mental health as well. So the second thing you would advise is lift in a different way. What do you mean by that.

Well just like at the gym if I'm trying to lift weight, but I'm twisted and contorted in some weird way, I'm going to sprain something. I've worked with people who. It's not that their workload is too much. It's that they're doing it in the hardest possible way. So sometimes there are things that we can do. Maybe we need to be using a different software. Maybe there needs to be a different organizational training that needs to happen. Maybe one of the big cases of burnout that I've run into is caregiving. When you caregiver for a loved one who's very sick or an elderly individual with dementia. And so what can happen is a person can think, the only way I can take care of this person is the way I'm doing it right now. But the way they're doing it right now is burning them out. And so sometimes we have to be willing to take a step back and say, maybe there's a different way of accomplishing this goal, and it's going to look different for every person. But it's saying, I'm going to choose to make sure that if I do have to lift this weight, if we're going to use that metaphor, which I love, if I do have to lift this weight, I'm going to lift it in the healthiest way possible so that I do the least harm to myself.

Well just like at the gym if I'm trying to lift weight, but I'm twisted and contorted in some weird way, I'm going to sprain something. I've worked with people who. It's not that their workload is too much. It's that they're doing it in the hardest possible way. So sometimes there are things that we can do. Maybe we need to be using a different software. Maybe there needs to be a different organizational training that needs to happen. Maybe one of the big cases of burnout that I've run into is caregiving. When you caregiver for a loved one who's very sick or an elderly individual with dementia. And so what can happen is a person can think, the only way I can take care of this person is the way I'm doing it right now. But the way they're doing it right now is burning them out. And so sometimes we have to be willing to take a step back and say, maybe there's a different way of accomplishing this goal, and it's going to look different for every person. But it's saying, I'm going to choose to make sure that if I do have to lift this weight, if we're going to use that metaphor, which I love, if I do have to lift this weight, I'm going to lift it in the healthiest way possible so that I do the least harm to myself.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Exactly right. I love that. And then there's some pragmatics to this as well. And then telling you again with the third one is.

Exactly right. I love that. And then there's some pragmatics to this as well. And then telling you again with the third one is.

The third one is to make. So if we're using that metaphor of weight at the gym, the third one would be to make healthy choices outside the gym that make us better able to do the weightlifting that we need to do when we get there. So if I'm drinking, you know, a bunch of soda pop and downing a bunch of donuts on my way to the gym, I may not perform quite as well as if I'm making healthier choices outside the gym. To help bolster my ability to do the hard work I have to do. That goes back to that physical self-care emotional self-care thing we were talking about before. You know, if you know, a great metaphor. And once an engineer told me, if what is weighing you down is stronger than what's holding you up, it collapses in your future. And so part of it is saying, I need to make sure that I am bolstering myself up, you know, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, both, you know, spiritually, emotionally, physically, I'm doing the things that help me be strong to deal with the weight that I have to carry.

The third one is to make. So if we're using that metaphor of weight at the gym, the third one would be to make healthy choices outside the gym that make us better able to do the weightlifting that we need to do when we get there. So if I'm drinking, you know, a bunch of soda pop and downing a bunch of donuts on my way to the gym, I may not perform quite as well as if I'm making healthier choices outside the gym. To help bolster my ability to do the hard work I have to do. That goes back to that physical self-care emotional self-care thing we were talking about before. You know, if you know, a great metaphor. And once an engineer told me, if what is weighing you down is stronger than what's holding you up, it collapses in your future. And so part of it is saying, I need to make sure that I am bolstering myself up, you know, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, both, you know, spiritually, emotionally, physically, I'm doing the things that help me be strong to deal with the weight that I have to carry.

Wow.

Wow.

So what happens with the idea of relaxation in the midst of all of this? Again, if you are someone who is on this track to burnout. The last thing that you can do is a find rest, recognize you need rest and then practice rest. How do you do all of that?

So what happens with the idea of relaxation in the midst of all of this? Again, if you are someone who is on this track to burnout. The last thing that you can do is a find rest, recognize you need rest and then practice rest. How do you do all of that?

Well, relaxation is really important because it's part of how we recover from stress. And so if you have all, all stress in your life and no relaxation, or we could even say all stress and no rest, um, that is unsustainable. So one of the biggest keys that I try to teach in the book is you need to rest like you stress. So if you have a highly stressful life, you need to have a highly restful life. There need to be times of very strategic recovery. And here's what most people uh, what I don't hear being said a lot is that if you stress a lot, you may need to rest more than the person next to you who is stressing less. So I may need to get more sleep. I may need to invest in getting better sleep. Maybe I need to be evaluating what's keeping me from getting sleep. I may it may be something where I have to make that more of a priority than the person next to me. And it's not just sleep, by the way. Rest is not just sleep. It's also the things that charge your battery. Right? So it's also waking activities that you do that I like to call RESTful activities, meaning that when I do this, my battery charges. I don't feel stressed. When I'm doing this, I feel energized. And when I get done doing whatever this activity is, I feel ready to take on more of life's challenges. And what happens is often in life, the busier we get, the more those restful activities fall.

Well, relaxation is really important because it's part of how we recover from stress. And so if you have all, all stress in your life and no relaxation, or we could even say all stress and no rest, um, that is unsustainable. So one of the biggest keys that I try to teach in the book is you need to rest like you stress. So if you have a highly stressful life, you need to have a highly restful life. There need to be times of very strategic recovery. And here's what most people uh, what I don't hear being said a lot is that if you stress a lot, you may need to rest more than the person next to you who is stressing less. So I may need to get more sleep. I may need to invest in getting better sleep. Maybe I need to be evaluating what's keeping me from getting sleep. I may it may be something where I have to make that more of a priority than the person next to me. And it's not just sleep, by the way. Rest is not just sleep. It's also the things that charge your battery. Right? So it's also waking activities that you do that I like to call RESTful activities, meaning that when I do this, my battery charges. I don't feel stressed. When I'm doing this, I feel energized. And when I get done doing whatever this activity is, I feel ready to take on more of life's challenges. And what happens is often in life, the busier we get, the more those restful activities fall.

Off of our.

Off of our.

To do list. And actually, it has to work the other way around. The busier you get, the more you must. You must do the restful things because you have to rest like you stress.

To do list. And actually, it has to work the other way around. The busier you get, the more you must. You must do the restful things because you have to rest like you stress.

So tell me how you rest. I mean, because I think people some think, sometimes think and it is included, but it's not just the idea of getting a good night's sleep. I love the European model, and I love some of the tech models where the tech in Silicon Valley has time out for naps. We would never think of doing that in America. And yet they do it in Europe and they do it in some of these more forward thinking high tech companies. Why? What is it they think they get out of their worker if there's downtime built into the workday?

So tell me how you rest. I mean, because I think people some think, sometimes think and it is included, but it's not just the idea of getting a good night's sleep. I love the European model, and I love some of the tech models where the tech in Silicon Valley has time out for naps. We would never think of doing that in America. And yet they do it in Europe and they do it in some of these more forward thinking high tech companies. Why? What is it they think they get out of their worker if there's downtime built into the workday?

Well, the science is on the side of napping, generally speaking, especially if they're shorter. If they're shorter naps. But I'll say I have had to learn this as it relates to sleep, because sleeping during hours when I could be doing some work to me in my life for for a long time, I viewed it as lazy. But something changed in my life. I had to have brain surgery back in April, and part of my recovery from that was I slept a lot and I had to sleep a lot. And my brain surgeon told me, your brain has to get has to have this recovery time of sleeping. And so I had to get rid of the guilt of sleeping when I needed to.

Well, the science is on the side of napping, generally speaking, especially if they're shorter. If they're shorter naps. But I'll say I have had to learn this as it relates to sleep, because sleeping during hours when I could be doing some work to me in my life for for a long time, I viewed it as lazy. But something changed in my life. I had to have brain surgery back in April, and part of my recovery from that was I slept a lot and I had to sleep a lot. And my brain surgeon told me, your brain has to get has to have this recovery time of sleeping. And so I had to get rid of the guilt of sleeping when I needed to.

I had to get rid.

I had to get rid.

Of the guilt of resting when I needed to. And honestly, that was how I made it through recovery from brain surgery. But it's changed my life on this side of brain surgery because I realized sometimes I just do. I have been pushing too hard and I need to lay down and get some rest. I need to get some extra sleep, even when I have things on my task list that are sitting there screaming at me. Sometimes you just have to be the person who says, you know what, I'm going to take care of myself first and the tasks will get done when they get done.

Of the guilt of resting when I needed to. And honestly, that was how I made it through recovery from brain surgery. But it's changed my life on this side of brain surgery because I realized sometimes I just do. I have been pushing too hard and I need to lay down and get some rest. I need to get some extra sleep, even when I have things on my task list that are sitting there screaming at me. Sometimes you just have to be the person who says, you know what, I'm going to take care of myself first and the tasks will get done when they get done.

Yeah, so implied in that, and I do appreciate that. And I'm glad to hear that you're moving forward on your brain surgery. And it clearly made you smarter so that it worked, obviously.

Yeah, so implied in that, and I do appreciate that. And I'm glad to hear that you're moving forward on your brain surgery. And it clearly made you smarter so that it worked, obviously.

So I'm just glad they found a brain in there.

So I'm just glad they found a brain in there.

Oh my goodness. I think part of this idea is because we always that voice in our head that says that if you're not doing, you don't have value, you don't have worth. And that's so problematic because this segues into a whole conversation. We could, if we wanted, about perfectionism, but even more importantly, thank you, Doctor John Townsend, for writing this seminal book about boundaries. Why do we as believers not set boundaries? Because boundaries give me permission to say no. They give me permission to take a nap. They give me permission to do some self-care. But boy, I tell you, boundaries are difficult for a whole lot of believers. Why? And how can we learn how to say no? Because that opens the door for some of these things you're telling us to do to make sure that we don't have a stress fracture.

Oh my goodness. I think part of this idea is because we always that voice in our head that says that if you're not doing, you don't have value, you don't have worth. And that's so problematic because this segues into a whole conversation. We could, if we wanted, about perfectionism, but even more importantly, thank you, Doctor John Townsend, for writing this seminal book about boundaries. Why do we as believers not set boundaries? Because boundaries give me permission to say no. They give me permission to take a nap. They give me permission to do some self-care. But boy, I tell you, boundaries are difficult for a whole lot of believers. Why? And how can we learn how to say no? Because that opens the door for some of these things you're telling us to do to make sure that we don't have a stress fracture.

Well, I hate to totally just rip off what Doctor Cloud says and just plagiarize him here, but I would say the main point that Henry makes, I completely agree with. God has boundaries. God says no.