Hi friend. Thanks so much for downloading this podcast and I hope you hear something that will edify, encourage, enlighten and get you out there into the marketplace of ideas. But before you listen and before you go, let me tell you about this month's Truth tool. It's a classic. It's written by doctor Josh McDowell and was updated by his son, Doctor Sean McDowell. It's called More Than a Carpenter and I love this classic book. There's about 15 million copies in print around the globe right now, and what this powerful book does is answer some of the basic questions that are being asked constantly by people who are seeking, who want to know who Jesus is. Questions like, Jesus had to be a liar, a lunatic, or he's exactly who he said he was, which is Lord, how do I put science in relationship with my faith? Ah, the Bible records reliable. Who would die for a lie? And isn't there some other way besides Jesus? Those questions and more are answered in this wonderful book called More Than a Carpenter. It's yours for a gift of any amount. When you financially support in the market with Janet Parshall, ask for your copy of More Than a Carpenter. When you call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet parshall.org for a gift of any amount. We'll give you a copy of this Christian classic that will help you know the answer. So in turn, you can go and tell somebody who Jesus is. 877 Janet 58 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet parshall.org. And while you're there, consider becoming a partial partner. Those are people who give every single month at a level of their own choosing. They'll always get the truth tool. But in addition, my way of saying thank you is offering you a weekly newsletter that includes some of my writing and an audio piece just for my partial partners. So again, 877 Janet 58 or online at in the Market with Janet parshall.org ask for your copy of More Than a Carpenter and now please enjoy the broadcast.

Hi friend. Thanks so much for downloading this podcast and I hope you hear something that will edify, encourage, enlighten and get you out there into the marketplace of ideas. But before you listen and before you go, let me tell you about this month's Truth tool. It's a classic. It's written by doctor Josh McDowell and was updated by his son, Doctor Sean McDowell. It's called More Than a Carpenter and I love this classic book. There's about 15 million copies in print around the globe right now, and what this powerful book does is answer some of the basic questions that are being asked constantly by people who are seeking, who want to know who Jesus is. Questions like, Jesus had to be a liar, a lunatic, or he's exactly who he said he was, which is Lord, how do I put science in relationship with my faith? Ah, the Bible records reliable. Who would die for a lie? And isn't there some other way besides Jesus? Those questions and more are answered in this wonderful book called More Than a Carpenter. It's yours for a gift of any amount. When you financially support in the market with Janet Parshall, ask for your copy of More Than a Carpenter. When you call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet parshall.org for a gift of any amount. We'll give you a copy of this Christian classic that will help you know the answer. So in turn, you can go and tell somebody who Jesus is. 877 Janet 58 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet parshall.org. And while you're there, consider becoming a partial partner. Those are people who give every single month at a level of their own choosing. They'll always get the truth tool. But in addition, my way of saying thank you is offering you a weekly newsletter that includes some of my writing and an audio piece just for my partial partners. So again, 877 Janet 58 or online at in the Market with Janet parshall.org ask for your copy of More Than a Carpenter and now please enjoy the broadcast.

Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. Time.

Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. Time.

The conference was over. The president won a pledge.

The conference was over. The president won a pledge.

Americans worshiping government over God. My extremely.

Americans worshiping government over God. My extremely.

Rare safety move by a major.

Rare safety move by a major.

17 years. The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated a.

17 years. The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated a.

Deal which.

Deal which.

Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you so much for spending the hour with us. Okay. Roll up your sleeves because this is one of those conversations that I love to remind us about that will cause us to think critically and biblically. And for the record, Your Honor, those are not mutually exclusive postures. In fact, if anything, it's a hand in a glove fit. When you and I came to faith in Jesus Christ, professing him as Lord and Savior and receiving what he had done for us at Calvary, not only was our heart was transformed, but our mind was renewed. And so often we failed to recognize that heart and mind are part of the total picture of a maturing saint. And that cacophony of the marketplace of ideas that you heard at our opening is a reminder that that is exactly where we're called to go. Now, I've never once said that it was going to be easy or simple or safe. In fact, it is the antithesis of all of that. And I didn't tell you to go there. Jesus did. If you read in that wonderfully private, precious conversation between Jesus and his father in the upper room in John 17. Why did God and his mercy and his love toward us give us permission to be a listener, a quiet observer, in the conversation between Jesus and His Father? And he makes the declarative statement that my prayer is not that you take them out of the world, but that you protect them from the evil one. Sanctify them with thy word. Thy word is truth. So we're not to come out of the world. Yes, we're in, but not of it. But it means we don't huddle ourselves in caves and live a monastic experience until Jesus calls us home. What do we do with the salt and the light that we've been given? How do we influence and occupy until he comes? How do we seek the welfare of the city unless we go out there into that increasingly hostile culture? And that is exactly where we're called to go. Well, to tell you that I was excited and looking forward to this conversation would be a gross understatement. I think Natasha Crane is a marvelous biblical thinker. I love the way she knows the word applies the word. I love the way she is a critical thinker. I love the way she role models her relationship with Jesus Christ. And I love the way that she is markedly countercultural, not just in the culture writ large, but sometimes cross-currents with the church capital C universal, who gets rather entrenched in its dogma rather than solid doctrine. But Natasha speaks the truth in love all the time, and she has a brand new book out called When Culture Hates. You know, I have to laugh at that title because we talk about that all the time on this program. But listen to her subtitle, persevering for the Common Good as Christians in a Hostile Public Square. Two words I want to extrapolate out of that subtitle. Number one persevering. So get prepared. Natasha is going to encourage you both this hour and through her book to do just that one foot in front of the other, stepping forward step by step, steadfastly into that public square. And number two, as Christians in a hostile public square. Uh oh. There it is. The proclamation. It's not safe. It's not easy. It's not secure. But that is exactly where we're called to go. And when you think about it, none of that should come as a surprise. Weren't we told that this was going to be happening? Natasha, if you don't know, is a speaker, a podcaster, and the author of five books. She loves to equip us to think more clearly about holding to a biblical worldview in an increasingly challenging secular culture. She's been featured on radio and TV across the U.S. and Canada. She is a former marketing executive, which I think works well because she is marketing beautifully the message of the gospel and an adjunct professor in the past. She now lives in Southern California with her husband and her children. Natasha, the warmest of welcomes. Kudos on another superb book, and I want to start exactly where the subtitle leaves us, which is a hostile public square. I just made the declaration that we shouldn't be surprised. But yet there are a lot of people listening right now who are enjoying that somnambulistic state, which is why Paul hits us in the ribs and says, wake up, O sleeper. Just how hostile is it out there?

Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you so much for spending the hour with us. Okay. Roll up your sleeves because this is one of those conversations that I love to remind us about that will cause us to think critically and biblically. And for the record, Your Honor, those are not mutually exclusive postures. In fact, if anything, it's a hand in a glove fit. When you and I came to faith in Jesus Christ, professing him as Lord and Savior and receiving what he had done for us at Calvary, not only was our heart was transformed, but our mind was renewed. And so often we failed to recognize that heart and mind are part of the total picture of a maturing saint. And that cacophony of the marketplace of ideas that you heard at our opening is a reminder that that is exactly where we're called to go. Now, I've never once said that it was going to be easy or simple or safe. In fact, it is the antithesis of all of that. And I didn't tell you to go there. Jesus did. If you read in that wonderfully private, precious conversation between Jesus and his father in the upper room in John 17. Why did God and his mercy and his love toward us give us permission to be a listener, a quiet observer, in the conversation between Jesus and His Father? And he makes the declarative statement that my prayer is not that you take them out of the world, but that you protect them from the evil one. Sanctify them with thy word. Thy word is truth. So we're not to come out of the world. Yes, we're in, but not of it. But it means we don't huddle ourselves in caves and live a monastic experience until Jesus calls us home. What do we do with the salt and the light that we've been given? How do we influence and occupy until he comes? How do we seek the welfare of the city unless we go out there into that increasingly hostile culture? And that is exactly where we're called to go. Well, to tell you that I was excited and looking forward to this conversation would be a gross understatement. I think Natasha Crane is a marvelous biblical thinker. I love the way she knows the word applies the word. I love the way she is a critical thinker. I love the way she role models her relationship with Jesus Christ. And I love the way that she is markedly countercultural, not just in the culture writ large, but sometimes cross-currents with the church capital C universal, who gets rather entrenched in its dogma rather than solid doctrine. But Natasha speaks the truth in love all the time, and she has a brand new book out called When Culture Hates. You know, I have to laugh at that title because we talk about that all the time on this program. But listen to her subtitle, persevering for the Common Good as Christians in a Hostile Public Square. Two words I want to extrapolate out of that subtitle. Number one persevering. So get prepared. Natasha is going to encourage you both this hour and through her book to do just that one foot in front of the other, stepping forward step by step, steadfastly into that public square. And number two, as Christians in a hostile public square. Uh oh. There it is. The proclamation. It's not safe. It's not easy. It's not secure. But that is exactly where we're called to go. And when you think about it, none of that should come as a surprise. Weren't we told that this was going to be happening? Natasha, if you don't know, is a speaker, a podcaster, and the author of five books. She loves to equip us to think more clearly about holding to a biblical worldview in an increasingly challenging secular culture. She's been featured on radio and TV across the U.S. and Canada. She is a former marketing executive, which I think works well because she is marketing beautifully the message of the gospel and an adjunct professor in the past. She now lives in Southern California with her husband and her children. Natasha, the warmest of welcomes. Kudos on another superb book, and I want to start exactly where the subtitle leaves us, which is a hostile public square. I just made the declaration that we shouldn't be surprised. But yet there are a lot of people listening right now who are enjoying that somnambulistic state, which is why Paul hits us in the ribs and says, wake up, O sleeper. Just how hostile is it out there?

Well, thank you, Janet, for the kind words. I really appreciate that. And you're right, there are some people who are still living in kind of that neutral world zone who haven't woken up to the reality yet of what's going on in the culture. But I find that increasingly Christians are looking around and saying, wait a second, things are really changing. I hear from Christians everywhere who are getting cut off by their family. They're getting cut off by their friends. They're losing their jobs. They're finding it hard to take a new job because they're being asked to agree to things that they don't agree with as a Christian. And so we're kind of having to take a look at things as Christians and say, well, where are we now? Because things have changed so rapidly in the last few years, with fewer and fewer people identifying as Christians. And now the culture is not only not identifying as Christians, but they're looking at Christianity and saying, you're not just wrong, but you're evil and a lot of the things that you believe. So yes, we should expect this. And as you alluded to earlier, you know, in John 15, Jesus said, if the world hates you know that it has hated me before. It hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own. So that kind of explains to us that if we're of the world, we're under the the destructive rule of Satan. We are slaves to sin. But if we are children of God, then we are slaves to righteousness. And of course, we're going to be hated if we're practicing righteousness and exposing the darkness. And that's what we have to grapple with today.

Well, thank you, Janet, for the kind words. I really appreciate that. And you're right, there are some people who are still living in kind of that neutral world zone who haven't woken up to the reality yet of what's going on in the culture. But I find that increasingly Christians are looking around and saying, wait a second, things are really changing. I hear from Christians everywhere who are getting cut off by their family. They're getting cut off by their friends. They're losing their jobs. They're finding it hard to take a new job because they're being asked to agree to things that they don't agree with as a Christian. And so we're kind of having to take a look at things as Christians and say, well, where are we now? Because things have changed so rapidly in the last few years, with fewer and fewer people identifying as Christians. And now the culture is not only not identifying as Christians, but they're looking at Christianity and saying, you're not just wrong, but you're evil and a lot of the things that you believe. So yes, we should expect this. And as you alluded to earlier, you know, in John 15, Jesus said, if the world hates you know that it has hated me before. It hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own. So that kind of explains to us that if we're of the world, we're under the the destructive rule of Satan. We are slaves to sin. But if we are children of God, then we are slaves to righteousness. And of course, we're going to be hated if we're practicing righteousness and exposing the darkness. And that's what we have to grapple with today.

Amen and amen. Early on in the book, you write about the fact and you mentioned a couple of groups. You talk about Jehovah's Witnesses, you talked about Heaven's Gate, that particular cult curiosities, but not outright animosity toward these groups. Why the distinction for Christians?

Amen and amen. Early on in the book, you write about the fact and you mentioned a couple of groups. You talk about Jehovah's Witnesses, you talked about Heaven's Gate, that particular cult curiosities, but not outright animosity toward these groups. Why the distinction for Christians?

Right. I think this is so important to understand, and I don't think I had fully processed it myself until I started writing this book. But there are lots of people who hold and lots of groups who hold values and views that are contrary to the popular consensus in all kinds of ways. And so you look at maybe I talk about the Amish, as well as another example of groups that kind of set themselves aside. And they have values that are very contrary to what culture loves today. But you don't see that hatred toward them. You don't see that kind of animosity toward the cult that keeps to itself or to Jehovah's Witnesses who have different beliefs about the Bible but don't seek to influence the public square. And that's really the key point, that when you hold contrarian values to what is considered popular and acceptable, and you want to use those values to influence the culture, that's when the culture starts to hate you. If you just want to be kind of off on your own, if you want to be a cult, they might think you're weird. They might think you're backward. If you want to live like it's 1750 still. Okay, fine. We're going to look at you a little strangely, but we're not going to hate you until you start bringing those values that are so opposed to what we believe in as a culture and start to influence us and start to say we want our values to be reflected in the culture itself. And that's where Christians are, because we as Christians are actually called to use our contrarian values to shine light in the darkness, to influence the world around us.

Right. I think this is so important to understand, and I don't think I had fully processed it myself until I started writing this book. But there are lots of people who hold and lots of groups who hold values and views that are contrary to the popular consensus in all kinds of ways. And so you look at maybe I talk about the Amish, as well as another example of groups that kind of set themselves aside. And they have values that are very contrary to what culture loves today. But you don't see that hatred toward them. You don't see that kind of animosity toward the cult that keeps to itself or to Jehovah's Witnesses who have different beliefs about the Bible but don't seek to influence the public square. And that's really the key point, that when you hold contrarian values to what is considered popular and acceptable, and you want to use those values to influence the culture, that's when the culture starts to hate you. If you just want to be kind of off on your own, if you want to be a cult, they might think you're weird. They might think you're backward. If you want to live like it's 1750 still. Okay, fine. We're going to look at you a little strangely, but we're not going to hate you until you start bringing those values that are so opposed to what we believe in as a culture and start to influence us and start to say we want our values to be reflected in the culture itself. And that's where Christians are, because we as Christians are actually called to use our contrarian values to shine light in the darkness, to influence the world around us.

And may it be let me pick up on that point exactly when we come back. Natasha. Natasha Crane's brand new book is called When Culture Hates You. And let me say again the subtitle, because it's so important persevering for the Common Good as Christians in a Hostile Public square. It is a book written for our day and age and teaches us how to do just that to persevere, to know how to act, and to be the salt and the light that God has called us to be. It is a superb book. You've heard me say it before about books that I find particularly impactful in my classroom. This would be required reading back after this. Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or he's Lord. How can we know for sure? That's why I've chosen more than a carpenter as this month's truth tool. Everyone wants to know who Jesus is, get the answers to questions people ask so that you can know and tell someone who he truly is. As for your copy of More Than a Carpenter, when you give a gift of any amount to in the market, call 877 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet parshall.org. Natasha Crane is with us. Her brand new book is entitled When Culture Hates You. She is a national speaker and author, a blogger, fabulous podcaster, by the way, and she has a marvelous writing and speaking ministry. And I want to pick up on exactly the point that you were making just before the break, Natasha. And that is, I asked what the distinction was, aside from the fact that the Lord told us that this was going to happen, that if we were aligned with him and the world hated him first, they're going to hate us simply by association and hopefully by our living, authentic Christianity in our lives so that we're easily recognizable as belonging to him. But I digress. Let me go back to the point that you just made here in Washington, DC where I'm situated. There are 535 members of Congress, and every single one of them has a set of values and a worldview. The nine people sitting today at the United States Supreme Court all have a worldview. Every one of them has a set of values. Nobody wakes up in the morning and steps outside their little tent without having a grid through which they push all of their decisions, i.e., their worldview. So why are Christians held guilty as charged? If we want to bring our values to the marketplace, where in Washington I see people with antithetical values to the one I hold debating in the well of Congress constantly trying to move their ideas through a political process. Why no animus there? Why animus toward us?

And may it be let me pick up on that point exactly when we come back. Natasha. Natasha Crane's brand new book is called When Culture Hates You. And let me say again the subtitle, because it's so important persevering for the Common Good as Christians in a Hostile Public square. It is a book written for our day and age and teaches us how to do just that to persevere, to know how to act, and to be the salt and the light that God has called us to be. It is a superb book. You've heard me say it before about books that I find particularly impactful in my classroom. This would be required reading back after this. Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or he's Lord. How can we know for sure? That's why I've chosen more than a carpenter as this month's truth tool. Everyone wants to know who Jesus is, get the answers to questions people ask so that you can know and tell someone who he truly is. As for your copy of More Than a Carpenter, when you give a gift of any amount to in the market, call 877 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet parshall.org. Natasha Crane is with us. Her brand new book is entitled When Culture Hates You. She is a national speaker and author, a blogger, fabulous podcaster, by the way, and she has a marvelous writing and speaking ministry. And I want to pick up on exactly the point that you were making just before the break, Natasha. And that is, I asked what the distinction was, aside from the fact that the Lord told us that this was going to happen, that if we were aligned with him and the world hated him first, they're going to hate us simply by association and hopefully by our living, authentic Christianity in our lives so that we're easily recognizable as belonging to him. But I digress. Let me go back to the point that you just made here in Washington, DC where I'm situated. There are 535 members of Congress, and every single one of them has a set of values and a worldview. The nine people sitting today at the United States Supreme Court all have a worldview. Every one of them has a set of values. Nobody wakes up in the morning and steps outside their little tent without having a grid through which they push all of their decisions, i.e., their worldview. So why are Christians held guilty as charged? If we want to bring our values to the marketplace, where in Washington I see people with antithetical values to the one I hold debating in the well of Congress constantly trying to move their ideas through a political process. Why no animus there? Why animus toward us?

Well, there's culture represents what's kind of in vogue at any given time. Culture, in terms of how I use it in the book, is a term that refers to this is what is in vogue. This is what is okay and acceptable to believe today. So there is an overwhelming popular moral consensus out there about what is okay and what is not okay to believe. Now, when Christians start pulling back and saying, I don't want to advocate for what's right, I don't want to advocate for my biblical values. A lot of times they have a misunderstanding, really just about the nature of civics and what it means to be a citizen in a constitutional republic like that. We're in. And so people start thinking, well, it's okay for those other people to try to legislate according to their values because that's not based in religion or that's not based in so-called Christianity. Right. You shouldn't bring those values to bear in the public square, but that's just a misunderstanding of our government structure. There is no reason why a Christian, just like anyone else, should not be able to bring their values to bear in their voting and their advocacy. That's exactly the way that things are supposed to work in a constitutional republic. We're not supposed to establish a state church that is protected by the First Amendment. The government is not going to force you to practice a specific religion, but people get that very confused with this idea of saying, well, you can't bring religious values out. And so that's why I think Christians get confused and secular culture gets confused because they just don't understand some basic civics. But we're not imposing values on anyone else any more than they're imposing their values on us by simply saying, this is what I believe, and this is what I'm going to advocate for as a citizen in this society. Yeah.

Well, there's culture represents what's kind of in vogue at any given time. Culture, in terms of how I use it in the book, is a term that refers to this is what is in vogue. This is what is okay and acceptable to believe today. So there is an overwhelming popular moral consensus out there about what is okay and what is not okay to believe. Now, when Christians start pulling back and saying, I don't want to advocate for what's right, I don't want to advocate for my biblical values. A lot of times they have a misunderstanding, really just about the nature of civics and what it means to be a citizen in a constitutional republic like that. We're in. And so people start thinking, well, it's okay for those other people to try to legislate according to their values because that's not based in religion or that's not based in so-called Christianity. Right. You shouldn't bring those values to bear in the public square, but that's just a misunderstanding of our government structure. There is no reason why a Christian, just like anyone else, should not be able to bring their values to bear in their voting and their advocacy. That's exactly the way that things are supposed to work in a constitutional republic. We're not supposed to establish a state church that is protected by the First Amendment. The government is not going to force you to practice a specific religion, but people get that very confused with this idea of saying, well, you can't bring religious values out. And so that's why I think Christians get confused and secular culture gets confused because they just don't understand some basic civics. But we're not imposing values on anyone else any more than they're imposing their values on us by simply saying, this is what I believe, and this is what I'm going to advocate for as a citizen in this society. Yeah.

Absolutely. Agree. More importantly, for us as the believer, we didn't get together in a conclave and decide, here's a bunch of good ideas. What we have is the transcendent, immutable Word of God where he has given us this absolutely appropriate and eternal moral code. So it should cause us not to be embarrassed or hesitant about speaking truth to a culture that is decaying before us, a culture that may hate us and may hate those values. But if anything, they are not individualized. They were given to us by a great and glorious King, which should give us the the sensitivity to know how to deliver it through a grace narrative, but the boldness to always deliver it.

Absolutely. Agree. More importantly, for us as the believer, we didn't get together in a conclave and decide, here's a bunch of good ideas. What we have is the transcendent, immutable Word of God where he has given us this absolutely appropriate and eternal moral code. So it should cause us not to be embarrassed or hesitant about speaking truth to a culture that is decaying before us, a culture that may hate us and may hate those values. But if anything, they are not individualized. They were given to us by a great and glorious King, which should give us the the sensitivity to know how to deliver it through a grace narrative, but the boldness to always deliver it.

Exactly. And I think that, unfortunately, in order to have that that conviction that you're speaking about, that motivation to really advocate for what's true, you've got to be very convicted that the Bible is your authority, that God has revealed himself through his Word. And in one of my chapters, I have a chapter specifically on the perseverance aspect. How do you persevere in the midst of hostility? And I give a little acronym for that, that the first part of it, it's act, act. And the first part is know your biblical authority. That's the A you're not going to persevere through hostility if you aren't fully convicted that the Bible is God's word, that it's authoritative, that it does represent an objective standard, that we're not, like you said, we're just not subjectively coming up with, well, here's what I think we should do about this policy or that we're saying we know objectively what God thinks about many of these things, and we're going to root our views and that. So you have to know your biblical authority before you're going to ever be motivated to act in the public square. Otherwise, you're just going to think, well, I'm on my own there, on my own. Who's going to break the tie? Well, God easily breaks the tie. As Christians, we have to remember that.

Exactly. And I think that, unfortunately, in order to have that that conviction that you're speaking about, that motivation to really advocate for what's true, you've got to be very convicted that the Bible is your authority, that God has revealed himself through his Word. And in one of my chapters, I have a chapter specifically on the perseverance aspect. How do you persevere in the midst of hostility? And I give a little acronym for that, that the first part of it, it's act, act. And the first part is know your biblical authority. That's the A you're not going to persevere through hostility if you aren't fully convicted that the Bible is God's word, that it's authoritative, that it does represent an objective standard, that we're not, like you said, we're just not subjectively coming up with, well, here's what I think we should do about this policy or that we're saying we know objectively what God thinks about many of these things, and we're going to root our views and that. So you have to know your biblical authority before you're going to ever be motivated to act in the public square. Otherwise, you're just going to think, well, I'm on my own there, on my own. Who's going to break the tie? Well, God easily breaks the tie. As Christians, we have to remember that.

Amen. So linger with that acrostic for a bit. So you talked about knowing your biblical authority. What's the C in the acrostic.

Amen. So linger with that acrostic for a bit. So you talked about knowing your biblical authority. What's the C in the acrostic.

So the C is strengthened conviction. So once you're fully convinced that the Bible is God's word, then you need to be convicted that you have the right understanding of what God's Word teaches. And I think a lot of Christians lack that. They might say, yes, I'm absolutely a Bible believing Christian. I absolutely believe the Bible is God's Word. But then they kind of waffle on some of these major topics when it comes to issues like abortion, for example. They kind of waffle because the world confuses them with various rhetoric and ways of presenting things, and they're not convicted that they understand fully what God's Word says about that. So we have to get the confidence of knowing how to advocate rightly based on what the Bible teaches. And and that takes study of what the Bible teaches, of course, but also studying the individual issues so that we understand this is what the Bible says. This is what the culture is saying, and this is where the disconnect is, so that we have that conviction.

So the C is strengthened conviction. So once you're fully convinced that the Bible is God's word, then you need to be convicted that you have the right understanding of what God's Word teaches. And I think a lot of Christians lack that. They might say, yes, I'm absolutely a Bible believing Christian. I absolutely believe the Bible is God's Word. But then they kind of waffle on some of these major topics when it comes to issues like abortion, for example. They kind of waffle because the world confuses them with various rhetoric and ways of presenting things, and they're not convicted that they understand fully what God's Word says about that. So we have to get the confidence of knowing how to advocate rightly based on what the Bible teaches. And and that takes study of what the Bible teaches, of course, but also studying the individual issues so that we understand this is what the Bible says. This is what the culture is saying, and this is where the disconnect is, so that we have that conviction.

Amen. And then the T.

Amen. And then the T.

The T is for maintain tenacity. And how do you do that. How do you keep going despite what we're seeing. And I really think it comes down to resetting our expectations. One of the most frequent questions that I get asked when I speak is, how can we make people like us more? Or some variant of that? How do we speak truth so that people will actually like us when they're hearing it? And the answer is, you can't. You cannot do that. Jesus said, like we've already talked about, that. There's a there's a very good chance that the world is going to hate you because you are not of the world. And so if we have this expectation that we need to really make sure people like us while we're speaking truth, we're never going to speak truth because they're not going to like it. And when they don't like it, and when we're penalized for that in some way, professionally or personally, we're going to think we did something wrong. We're going to we're going to think that, you know what? They don't like me. I must have said this wrong. Or maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all. And that is the wrong conclusion. All that follows from having the wrong expectations. And so we have to reset those expectations to know the culture is getting more difficult, and we have to be prepared for that.

The T is for maintain tenacity. And how do you do that. How do you keep going despite what we're seeing. And I really think it comes down to resetting our expectations. One of the most frequent questions that I get asked when I speak is, how can we make people like us more? Or some variant of that? How do we speak truth so that people will actually like us when they're hearing it? And the answer is, you can't. You cannot do that. Jesus said, like we've already talked about, that. There's a there's a very good chance that the world is going to hate you because you are not of the world. And so if we have this expectation that we need to really make sure people like us while we're speaking truth, we're never going to speak truth because they're not going to like it. And when they don't like it, and when we're penalized for that in some way, professionally or personally, we're going to think we did something wrong. We're going to we're going to think that, you know what? They don't like me. I must have said this wrong. Or maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all. And that is the wrong conclusion. All that follows from having the wrong expectations. And so we have to reset those expectations to know the culture is getting more difficult, and we have to be prepared for that.

Yes, indeed. I laughed when you talked about the most frequently asked question. I just can't quite imagine Paul going as he's writing to the churches. What do I need to do to get people to like me more? That idea probably never crossed Paul's mind. Once when we come back, we're going to continue our conversation with Natasha Crane. Let me tell you also that her brand new book, When Culture Hates You, is broken into two parts. The first is Understanding the Hate, and it's an excellent apologetic on where this comes from, where God puts government, why government exists in the first place. How to persevere, she just noted. And then the second half is pragmatics, how we respond to and persevere through today's most prominent charges. Back after this. When culture hates you, persevering for the common good as Christians in a hostile public. Brand new book by Natasha Crane. Absolutely fabulous by the way. Please follow her through her blog and her podcast and her writing as well. I have a link, by the way, to her brand new book so that you can get a copy as well. This book is written for such a time as this because the hostel is going to be increasingly excuse me, the culture is going to be increasingly more hostile against us as believers, and we're going to have to decide whether we're going to be truly stepping into the role as ambassador for Christ, or whether or not we're going to retreat and be ashamed and closet ourselves and our faith, which nowhere in Scripture do we see permission to be able to do that. So this is about understanding the times in which we live, like the men of the tribe of Issachar and knowing what we need to do. Natasha. There's so much I want to talk to you about. And this hour is going to absolutely fly by. Let me just ask you kind of to do a flyover, because in the subtitle you use a phrase common good. And that for a lot of people that's kind of cryptic. They don't understand when we say the common good, what more meaning by that? Explain if you would.

Yes, indeed. I laughed when you talked about the most frequently asked question. I just can't quite imagine Paul going as he's writing to the churches. What do I need to do to get people to like me more? That idea probably never crossed Paul's mind. Once when we come back, we're going to continue our conversation with Natasha Crane. Let me tell you also that her brand new book, When Culture Hates You, is broken into two parts. The first is Understanding the Hate, and it's an excellent apologetic on where this comes from, where God puts government, why government exists in the first place. How to persevere, she just noted. And then the second half is pragmatics, how we respond to and persevere through today's most prominent charges. Back after this. When culture hates you, persevering for the common good as Christians in a hostile public. Brand new book by Natasha Crane. Absolutely fabulous by the way. Please follow her through her blog and her podcast and her writing as well. I have a link, by the way, to her brand new book so that you can get a copy as well. This book is written for such a time as this because the hostel is going to be increasingly excuse me, the culture is going to be increasingly more hostile against us as believers, and we're going to have to decide whether we're going to be truly stepping into the role as ambassador for Christ, or whether or not we're going to retreat and be ashamed and closet ourselves and our faith, which nowhere in Scripture do we see permission to be able to do that. So this is about understanding the times in which we live, like the men of the tribe of Issachar and knowing what we need to do. Natasha. There's so much I want to talk to you about. And this hour is going to absolutely fly by. Let me just ask you kind of to do a flyover, because in the subtitle you use a phrase common good. And that for a lot of people that's kind of cryptic. They don't understand when we say the common good, what more meaning by that? Explain if you would.

Yeah. It's a really important question actually, because people can say common good and mean vastly different things. In fact, that term has been used for hundreds of years and has meant many different things. But I kind of hope to reclaim the term in this book for Christians at least to understand what it should mean to us. So when we break it down, common just means the life that we share in common in some kind of community context. So for purposes of this book I'm talking about at a country level, that commonality between us and then the good is what people normally wish for their communities in terms of being able to thrive. So the common good just means what do we think is best for society, for our common life together in in this country. And and I do write it primarily with the United States in mind, though I know that it will be relevant to some other places as well. But that's the context for it. The important thing for Christians to understand is that anyone can throw this term around and say, well, it's for the common good, right? And make this claim. But if we are going to use the term according to something that is consistent with what the Bible teaches, we have to define good how God would define good. And that's that's really what I focus on in the book, is helping Christians understand before you get into any individual issues or you start talking about the political realm and some of the other things I tackle in the book, can we understand what it means to derive our understanding of good from what the Bible teaches, based on God's perfect standards and what he has revealed? Other people are going to use it in different ways. We have to be really clear about what it should mean, given God's standards.

Yeah. It's a really important question actually, because people can say common good and mean vastly different things. In fact, that term has been used for hundreds of years and has meant many different things. But I kind of hope to reclaim the term in this book for Christians at least to understand what it should mean to us. So when we break it down, common just means the life that we share in common in some kind of community context. So for purposes of this book I'm talking about at a country level, that commonality between us and then the good is what people normally wish for their communities in terms of being able to thrive. So the common good just means what do we think is best for society, for our common life together in in this country. And and I do write it primarily with the United States in mind, though I know that it will be relevant to some other places as well. But that's the context for it. The important thing for Christians to understand is that anyone can throw this term around and say, well, it's for the common good, right? And make this claim. But if we are going to use the term according to something that is consistent with what the Bible teaches, we have to define good how God would define good. And that's that's really what I focus on in the book, is helping Christians understand before you get into any individual issues or you start talking about the political realm and some of the other things I tackle in the book, can we understand what it means to derive our understanding of good from what the Bible teaches, based on God's perfect standards and what he has revealed? Other people are going to use it in different ways. We have to be really clear about what it should mean, given God's standards.

Yeah, Amen to that. And you do an excellent job of explaining that in the book. So you use the P word in your response. So let me go there. This is boy, what a sticky wicket this is for so many in the church. You know, when you stop and you review what God did when he created his institutions, he starts with the family in a place of perfection. The next thing he creates is government. And the third thing he creates is the church. We will fight for our families, we defend the church and we have to grab the smelling salts when we get to politics. Why is that?

Yeah, Amen to that. And you do an excellent job of explaining that in the book. So you use the P word in your response. So let me go there. This is boy, what a sticky wicket this is for so many in the church. You know, when you stop and you review what God did when he created his institutions, he starts with the family in a place of perfection. The next thing he creates is government. And the third thing he creates is the church. We will fight for our families, we defend the church and we have to grab the smelling salts when we get to politics. Why is that?

I think that people have some very bad understandings of what politics is, and so everybody is bringing different baggage into the conversation. And sometimes if someone said, hey, I don't think that Christians should be political, if I were to ask them what they mean by that, I might agree with them. But if we're going to roll this back and say, well, what does it even mean to be political and politics? Very basic definition that I use in the book is that this is just the way that people living in communities make decisions about how we're going to live together. So if we're talking about this at a national level, we're talking about how should we as a country, how should we decide to live together? Should Christians have a say in that? Absolutely. Of course. Why would we not have a say in that when we live under the form of government that we do a constitutional republic? Christians throughout time have lived under many different forms of government, and so the question of how they would apply their faith to the common good in those settings, that's going to depend on those contexts. But for us in the United States, we absolutely, as Christians, have the opportunity, the right, the privilege to advocate for righteousness in the public arena. And that includes the political. So, yes, when we get down to a basic definition of just understanding, well, this is what politics is, we should have no hesitancy about that. But people get really nervous about it because they're importing all kinds of meanings.

I think that people have some very bad understandings of what politics is, and so everybody is bringing different baggage into the conversation. And sometimes if someone said, hey, I don't think that Christians should be political, if I were to ask them what they mean by that, I might agree with them. But if we're going to roll this back and say, well, what does it even mean to be political and politics? Very basic definition that I use in the book is that this is just the way that people living in communities make decisions about how we're going to live together. So if we're talking about this at a national level, we're talking about how should we as a country, how should we decide to live together? Should Christians have a say in that? Absolutely. Of course. Why would we not have a say in that when we live under the form of government that we do a constitutional republic? Christians throughout time have lived under many different forms of government, and so the question of how they would apply their faith to the common good in those settings, that's going to depend on those contexts. But for us in the United States, we absolutely, as Christians, have the opportunity, the right, the privilege to advocate for righteousness in the public arena. And that includes the political. So, yes, when we get down to a basic definition of just understanding, well, this is what politics is, we should have no hesitancy about that. But people get really nervous about it because they're importing all kinds of meanings.

Exactly right. You know, I've said after decades in Washington, that the political is simply the machine. It's how the sausage gets made. The end result is policy. Policy is predicated on worldview. Every person who comes to this town as an elected public servant has a particular worldview and an idea about what they want for the common good, as you just defined it earlier. And so there will be a myriad of approaches to try to push their common good worldview through the process of politics, to get the public policy that they want. And so you can't have policy without politics. And politics is the machinery. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. We're east of Eden. Nothing is. But in our country we have the the power and the process. Not not of all our brothers and sisters have globally. The power comes from the bottom up, not the top down. Thank you, Lord, for the wisdom you bequeathed our Founding fathers to do just that. They had a king. They didn't want that anymore. They wanted that representative form of government that we've got. But somehow we find the process of politics such filled with anathema that we don't want anything to do with it. How do we put in place good public policy for the common good that upholds a standard of righteousness, without having it getting pushed through the grid of politics? You can't have the one without the other.

Exactly right. You know, I've said after decades in Washington, that the political is simply the machine. It's how the sausage gets made. The end result is policy. Policy is predicated on worldview. Every person who comes to this town as an elected public servant has a particular worldview and an idea about what they want for the common good, as you just defined it earlier. And so there will be a myriad of approaches to try to push their common good worldview through the process of politics, to get the public policy that they want. And so you can't have policy without politics. And politics is the machinery. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. We're east of Eden. Nothing is. But in our country we have the the power and the process. Not not of all our brothers and sisters have globally. The power comes from the bottom up, not the top down. Thank you, Lord, for the wisdom you bequeathed our Founding fathers to do just that. They had a king. They didn't want that anymore. They wanted that representative form of government that we've got. But somehow we find the process of politics such filled with anathema that we don't want anything to do with it. How do we put in place good public policy for the common good that upholds a standard of righteousness, without having it getting pushed through the grid of politics? You can't have the one without the other.

That's exactly right. And I unfortunately, I think that a lot of the reason that Christians have been so hesitant to get involved in politics, and to follow through on advocating for the right policies is coming down from a lot of Christian leaders. A lot of Christian leaders, especially coming off of this election season that we've been on, a lot of leaders have continually focused on the warnings about errors and political engagement. So I use this analogy in the book. It's kind of like a parent who's continually telling their child who's saying, hey, how do I ride a bike? Oh, well, you could fall off the bike. Okay, but how do I ride the bike? Well, well, your foot could go into the pedal and you could accidentally fall off. And you could. You could hurt something. They keep saying these are all the things that can go wrong. You can love your country too much. You can use power in bad ways. All of these errors. But we don't get to saying, but how should we engage in politics as Christians? And I think that that has really hurt the church.

That's exactly right. And I unfortunately, I think that a lot of the reason that Christians have been so hesitant to get involved in politics, and to follow through on advocating for the right policies is coming down from a lot of Christian leaders. A lot of Christian leaders, especially coming off of this election season that we've been on, a lot of leaders have continually focused on the warnings about errors and political engagement. So I use this analogy in the book. It's kind of like a parent who's continually telling their child who's saying, hey, how do I ride a bike? Oh, well, you could fall off the bike. Okay, but how do I ride the bike? Well, well, your foot could go into the pedal and you could accidentally fall off. And you could. You could hurt something. They keep saying these are all the things that can go wrong. You can love your country too much. You can use power in bad ways. All of these errors. But we don't get to saying, but how should we engage in politics as Christians? And I think that that has really hurt the church.

And you tell us exactly how we should do that. In your brand new book, When Culture Hates You subtitle persevering for the Common Good as Christians in a Hostile Public. As I noted, this conversation is going far too quickly. There's so much in the book. But if I piqued your curiosity, if I've whetted your appetite a bit to know more about how to be an ambassador for Christ in the public square, then this book was written just for you. More with Natasha Crane right after this. With so many stations, channels, websites and newspapers to choose from, sometimes it's hard to uncover the truth in today's world. So many voices clamoring for our attention on in the market. We bring biblical truth into the marketplace of ideas, equipping you to become a bold voice of truth in this confused and chaotic culture. Become a partial partner today. Call 877 Janet 58 or go online to in the market with Janet parshall.org. If you're joining us, the warmest of welcomes. We're having a fabulous conversation with Natasha Crane. She's a national speaker, an author, a blogger, and a podcaster who is passionate and very gifted when it comes to equipping Christians to think more clearly about holding to a biblical worldview in the midst of an increasingly challenging secular culture. She is a wonderful author, and her latest book is entitled When Culture Hates You Persevering for the Common Good as Christians in a Hostile Public. Now, if you're just joining us, I'm glad you're here and I want to encourage you. You haven't missed the first half. Just go to our podcast wherever you find your favorite podcast. It's entitled In the Market with Janet Parshall. Download it here. This hour in its entirety, or either of the two hours we do every day going back a full year. So then on your time schedule, in your convenience, you can listen, but don't miss this conversation. It is so apt and so timely for the days in which we find ourselves. Natasha, as I noted earlier, you divide the book into two parts. One is really giving us the background, helping to have this better understanding of the apologetic of Christians and their relationship both to the political process and pursuing the common good from God's perspective, predicated on His word. The second half, as I noted, is a practicum about very pragmatic ways to look at some of the more contentious issues that are out there and how we can better contend for the faith. If I can borrow from our friend Jude for a moment, but I don't want to get to that pragmatic part. Just I could spend two hours talking to you about that or more, but let me just linger a little bit longer in the apologetic part, because you brilliantly unpack five very commonly heard objections of why Christians askew the political process from Christians shouldn't impose their views on other to Christians, shouldn't be partisan. Break down some of those accusations just because I think if we can trim away the bramble bushes, we'll understand that being a mature Christian, serving the Lord with our heart, mind, and soul involves intersection with the culture. I'm not quite sure how one evangelizes without that intersection. And when you get to the marketplace, one of the reasons for this program is we learn how people who don't yet hold a biblical worldview think so we can engage them like Paul did in acts 17. So break down some of those objections to us and really underscore why they're really straw man arguments at best.

And you tell us exactly how we should do that. In your brand new book, When Culture Hates You subtitle persevering for the Common Good as Christians in a Hostile Public. As I noted, this conversation is going far too quickly. There's so much in the book. But if I piqued your curiosity, if I've whetted your appetite a bit to know more about how to be an ambassador for Christ in the public square, then this book was written just for you. More with Natasha Crane right after this. With so many stations, channels, websites and newspapers to choose from, sometimes it's hard to uncover the truth in today's world. So many voices clamoring for our attention on in the market. We bring biblical truth into the marketplace of ideas, equipping you to become a bold voice of truth in this confused and chaotic culture. Become a partial partner today. Call 877 Janet 58 or go online to in the market with Janet parshall.org. If you're joining us, the warmest of welcomes. We're having a fabulous conversation with Natasha Crane. She's a national speaker, an author, a blogger, and a podcaster who is passionate and very gifted when it comes to equipping Christians to think more clearly about holding to a biblical worldview in the midst of an increasingly challenging secular culture. She is a wonderful author, and her latest book is entitled When Culture Hates You Persevering for the Common Good as Christians in a Hostile Public. Now, if you're just joining us, I'm glad you're here and I want to encourage you. You haven't missed the first half. Just go to our podcast wherever you find your favorite podcast. It's entitled In the Market with Janet Parshall. Download it here. This hour in its entirety, or either of the two hours we do every day going back a full year. So then on your time schedule, in your convenience, you can listen, but don't miss this conversation. It is so apt and so timely for the days in which we find ourselves. Natasha, as I noted earlier, you divide the book into two parts. One is really giving us the background, helping to have this better understanding of the apologetic of Christians and their relationship both to the political process and pursuing the common good from God's perspective, predicated on His word. The second half, as I noted, is a practicum about very pragmatic ways to look at some of the more contentious issues that are out there and how we can better contend for the faith. If I can borrow from our friend Jude for a moment, but I don't want to get to that pragmatic part. Just I could spend two hours talking to you about that or more, but let me just linger a little bit longer in the apologetic part, because you brilliantly unpack five very commonly heard objections of why Christians askew the political process from Christians shouldn't impose their views on other to Christians, shouldn't be partisan. Break down some of those accusations just because I think if we can trim away the bramble bushes, we'll understand that being a mature Christian, serving the Lord with our heart, mind, and soul involves intersection with the culture. I'm not quite sure how one evangelizes without that intersection. And when you get to the marketplace, one of the reasons for this program is we learn how people who don't yet hold a biblical worldview think so we can engage them like Paul did in acts 17. So break down some of those objections to us and really underscore why they're really straw man arguments at best.

Yeah, I think this.

Yeah, I think this.

Is one of the most important chapters in the book, actually, where I go through these objections because a lot of people have heard these things so often that they're almost like mantras. They're things that we repeat that we don't think more deeply about. One of my favorite ones to address there is Christians shouldn't seek power. This has become this really common idea that it's bad to have power and not to go off on a tangent, but that comes from all the the neo-Marxist underpinnings of critical theory that having power is somehow inherently wrong and it's oppressive, and that gets pushed over into the idea that, hey, we shouldn't be seeking power. That's a bad thing. But again, like we were talking about earlier, we have to step back and think of some definitions here. Power in and of itself is not bad. It's just the authority and ability to execute a governing role so it can be used well or it can be used poorly. So there's no reason that we should not want to seek the power to do good. We want to put people in power who are going to steward that power. Well, there we can go deeper in that. But that's just that's just kind of one that I think needs to be highlighted because it's so, so prevalent. Another one is that politics somehow harms our witness. Hear this a lot. People say, well, people aren't going to like us if we're advocating for biblical values in the public square, and if they don't like us, they're not going to want to hear the gospel. But in reality, we are called both to share the gospel, to make disciples of all nations. And we are called to be salt and light. It's a both and and so if people don't like us when we're out there saying things about major, important issues that are consistent with biblical truth, we're still doing what's right. And if they don't want to hear the gospel, that doesn't mean we did something wrong. It just means that they're not responding to it in the way that we might hope at a given time, but we allow God to work through that. And so we can't say, oh, it's going to harm our witness. And so therefore we shouldn't have said something. Another big one is Natasha.

Is one of the most important chapters in the book, actually, where I go through these objections because a lot of people have heard these things so often that they're almost like mantras. They're things that we repeat that we don't think more deeply about. One of my favorite ones to address there is Christians shouldn't seek power. This has become this really common idea that it's bad to have power and not to go off on a tangent, but that comes from all the the neo-Marxist underpinnings of critical theory that having power is somehow inherently wrong and it's oppressive, and that gets pushed over into the idea that, hey, we shouldn't be seeking power. That's a bad thing. But again, like we were talking about earlier, we have to step back and think of some definitions here. Power in and of itself is not bad. It's just the authority and ability to execute a governing role so it can be used well or it can be used poorly. So there's no reason that we should not want to seek the power to do good. We want to put people in power who are going to steward that power. Well, there we can go deeper in that. But that's just that's just kind of one that I think needs to be highlighted because it's so, so prevalent. Another one is that politics somehow harms our witness. Hear this a lot. People say, well, people aren't going to like us if we're advocating for biblical values in the public square, and if they don't like us, they're not going to want to hear the gospel. But in reality, we are called both to share the gospel, to make disciples of all nations. And we are called to be salt and light. It's a both and and so if people don't like us when we're out there saying things about major, important issues that are consistent with biblical truth, we're still doing what's right. And if they don't want to hear the gospel, that doesn't mean we did something wrong. It just means that they're not responding to it in the way that we might hope at a given time, but we allow God to work through that. And so we can't say, oh, it's going to harm our witness. And so therefore we shouldn't have said something. Another big one is Natasha.

Can I interrupt you? Forgive me, but just on that point, because it's so important and maybe it's a sensitivity that I have to my mission field here in Washington, DC. What does that do when we say that Christians shouldn't get involved in politics because it harms our witness? What does that do to the brothers and sisters for whom God has called into the public square to serve in the political process? We are basically saying their ministry has no worth and value. I've talked to so many people on Capitol Hill who are professing believers. I can tell you they're standing room only on the weekly prayer meetings. I can tell you that the chaplain's office door is open constantly, where he's praying for people of both parties, because in the end, the ground is level before the cross. So when someone feels called to be a public servant, and God certainly didn't draw a ring around politics and government and say, don't have anything to do with it, particularly when he instituted it and it rests on his shoulders. But were basically marginalizing those brothers and sisters who serve from dog dogcatcher to president of the United States.

Can I interrupt you? Forgive me, but just on that point, because it's so important and maybe it's a sensitivity that I have to my mission field here in Washington, DC. What does that do when we say that Christians shouldn't get involved in politics because it harms our witness? What does that do to the brothers and sisters for whom God has called into the public square to serve in the political process? We are basically saying their ministry has no worth and value. I've talked to so many people on Capitol Hill who are professing believers. I can tell you they're standing room only on the weekly prayer meetings. I can tell you that the chaplain's office door is open constantly, where he's praying for people of both parties, because in the end, the ground is level before the cross. So when someone feels called to be a public servant, and God certainly didn't draw a ring around politics and government and say, don't have anything to do with it, particularly when he instituted it and it rests on his shoulders. But were basically marginalizing those brothers and sisters who serve from dog dogcatcher to president of the United States.

That's absolutely right. And also throughout history, in all of the examples that we have before us, one of the things that I talk about in that chapter is that you can apply what I call the slavery test to any of these objections. And basically what that means is think through an objection you hear like this. Say to yourself, Christians shouldn't have worked to end slavery because and then fill in the objection. Would we ever say Christians shouldn't have worked to end slavery because politics harms our witness? I mean, we I think we instinctively know today that we wouldn't say that because we recognize in retrospect that those who advocated to end an evil institution were doing the right thing according to God, whether or not anyone wanted to hear the gospel. At the same time, that's irrelevant to whether or not we should have been advocating for what was right. So we recognize that when we look back in history and what people did at the time. But when you apply it today, people, they start to get a little bit wishy washy. They don't want to think about it that way. And so I think the slavery test helps us to get through some of that.

That's absolutely right. And also throughout history, in all of the examples that we have before us, one of the things that I talk about in that chapter is that you can apply what I call the slavery test to any of these objections. And basically what that means is think through an objection you hear like this. Say to yourself, Christians shouldn't have worked to end slavery because and then fill in the objection. Would we ever say Christians shouldn't have worked to end slavery because politics harms our witness? I mean, we I think we instinctively know today that we wouldn't say that because we recognize in retrospect that those who advocated to end an evil institution were doing the right thing according to God, whether or not anyone wanted to hear the gospel. At the same time, that's irrelevant to whether or not we should have been advocating for what was right. So we recognize that when we look back in history and what people did at the time. But when you apply it today, people, they start to get a little bit wishy washy. They don't want to think about it that way. And so I think the slavery test helps us to get through some of that.

And you know what's interesting? Even William Wilberforce and you talk about slavery and you look at what happened in the UK. Here is a man who struggled, didn't know if he should stay in power in Parliament or whether or not he should go into the pulpit instead. And again, he had to answer that question about his opportunity to influence and occupy through the political role. And the rest is world history. So that's such an important point. So and by the way, you brilliantly took that issue of slavery and took all of these challenges, all of these objections, and pushed it against the grid of slavery. And it doesn't pass muster in that way. And you realize that if we hadn't been involved and and in so many movements in this country, in maternity homes, in rescue missions and soup kitchens, the list goes on and on and on, where would the world be if Christians hadn't decided to step forward, which I think is extremely important? So I thank you for breaking down some of those objections. When you get into the pragmatic part, you went right for the jugular, and I'm so glad you did. And you you decided that you would write about Christian nationalism. I really take umbrage with this because it's a cudgel predominantly produced by the secular press. When The Atlantic magazine decides to use it as a bludgeoning tool to silence people who hold biblical values from coming into the marketplace of ideas, that's one thing. But when the church summoned the church, swallow this hook, line and sinker, that's a whole other problem. Talk to me about this.

And you know what's interesting? Even William Wilberforce and you talk about slavery and you look at what happened in the UK. Here is a man who struggled, didn't know if he should stay in power in Parliament or whether or not he should go into the pulpit instead. And again, he had to answer that question about his opportunity to influence and occupy through the political role. And the rest is world history. So that's such an important point. So and by the way, you brilliantly took that issue of slavery and took all of these challenges, all of these objections, and pushed it against the grid of slavery. And it doesn't pass muster in that way. And you realize that if we hadn't been involved and and in so many movements in this country, in maternity homes, in rescue missions and soup kitchens, the list goes on and on and on, where would the world be if Christians hadn't decided to step forward, which I think is extremely important? So I thank you for breaking down some of those objections. When you get into the pragmatic part, you went right for the jugular, and I'm so glad you did. And you you decided that you would write about Christian nationalism. I really take umbrage with this because it's a cudgel predominantly produced by the secular press. When The Atlantic magazine decides to use it as a bludgeoning tool to silence people who hold biblical values from coming into the marketplace of ideas, that's one thing. But when the church summoned the church, swallow this hook, line and sinker, that's a whole other problem. Talk to me about this.

Yeah. The Christian nationalism question is one that I wanted to include in this book, because it is something that is driving a lot of resentment against Christians. A lot of hatred and a lot of cases because it comes back to, oh, you Christians, you're imposing your values on others. And if you look at what the media says about this subject, they will call this this dangerous Christian nationalism movement. It is theocratic, it is extreme, it is pervasive. It is anti-democratic. You hear all these words and it it drives this panic. But what it really is when you look at it, and there are hundreds of thousands of pages that mention Christian nationalism online. So there's no way to aggregate that in some kind of automatic way to look at how they're using it. But when you start sampling hundreds of these articles, which I did in the process of writing this book, and you actually look at what they're talking about beyond the headline. So when they're saying Christian nationalism, what exactly do they mean? Given the examples in the article, what you see 99 times out of 100 is that they're talking about Christian values being advocated for in the public square. That's all it is, unpopular Christian values, I should say, according to what the Bible would teach. So if a Christian is pro-life, if a Christian is advocating against transgender surgeries for youth, for example, these kinds of things will be labeled Christian nationalism. So at the end of the day, it is very often a term that is simply used against any kind of movement to advocate for righteousness in the public square, for Christian values that are not consistent with the popular moral consensus. What they do, though, and this is kind of a trick that you have to watch out for, is that a lot of times they'll add in something that's actually problematic into the article or the other content that they're using. they'll show a sign that somebody is holding up that is cringe worthy. That makes you go, oh, well, no, that's not I don't want to be associated with that. But then they'll mix that in with all the things that are totally fine that we should be advocating for what's right according to biblical values. And they packaged it all together as Christian nationalism. So then unsuspecting people see that, and they think of it as like, oh wow, there's this whole movement of crazy people who want to implement these values over the rest of society. And they say a lot of weird things. Sometimes they say some racist things. I mean, they package it all together as one big problem. In reality, that's not what it is exactly.

Yeah. The Christian nationalism question is one that I wanted to include in this book, because it is something that is driving a lot of resentment against Christians. A lot of hatred and a lot of cases because it comes back to, oh, you Christians, you're imposing your values on others. And if you look at what the media says about this subject, they will call this this dangerous Christian nationalism movement. It is theocratic, it is extreme, it is pervasive. It is anti-democratic. You hear all these words and it it drives this panic. But what it really is when you look at it, and there are hundreds of thousands of pages that mention Christian nationalism online. So there's no way to aggregate that in some kind of automatic way to look at how they're using it. But when you start sampling hundreds of these articles, which I did in the process of writing this book, and you actually look at what they're talking about beyond the headline. So when they're saying Christian nationalism, what exactly do they mean? Given the examples in the article, what you see 99 times out of 100 is that they're talking about Christian values being advocated for in the public square. That's all it is, unpopular Christian values, I should say, according to what the Bible would teach. So if a Christian is pro-life, if a Christian is advocating against transgender surgeries for youth, for example, these kinds of things will be labeled Christian nationalism. So at the end of the day, it is very often a term that is simply used against any kind of movement to advocate for righteousness in the public square, for Christian values that are not consistent with the popular moral consensus. What they do, though, and this is kind of a trick that you have to watch out for, is that a lot of times they'll add in something that's actually problematic into the article or the other content that they're using. they'll show a sign that somebody is holding up that is cringe worthy. That makes you go, oh, well, no, that's not I don't want to be associated with that. But then they'll mix that in with all the things that are totally fine that we should be advocating for what's right according to biblical values. And they packaged it all together as Christian nationalism. So then unsuspecting people see that, and they think of it as like, oh wow, there's this whole movement of crazy people who want to implement these values over the rest of society. And they say a lot of weird things. Sometimes they say some racist things. I mean, they package it all together as one big problem. In reality, that's not what it is exactly.

And this is where it is imperative we become good Bereans to really test all things. You know, you alluded to this in the book, and I laughed out loud because I wondered if it was the same thing that I had seen recently on one of the alphabet soup networks where the host was pontificating and saying, you know, there's a national movement in this country where some people believe it or not, some people don't even believe they're their rights come from government. They come from God. I mean, that's a whole movement sweeping the country. Yes. That thought. Apparently, she skipped high school civics that day. The word is inalienable, which means definitively, rights don't come from government. They come from God. And in our democratic republic, we really and truly have the job of preserving, protecting and promoting those rights already given to us by God, not granted to us by government. And yet with this anchor was trying to posit was the reality was that if you believe your rights come from God and not from government, ipso facto you are a Christian nationalist. And then what happens is that's the that's the parasitic opportunity for that to cause a whole infectious idea in the culture that says, if you believe that, well, then you must be a Christian nationalist. That's where we really need tough skin. Do we not to be able to deflect that and understand? Wait a minute. I'm allowed in the public square to espouse what I believe again through a grace narrative, without feeling that somehow I have I have rendered neutral my belief in biblical truth. Am I right on that?

And this is where it is imperative we become good Bereans to really test all things. You know, you alluded to this in the book, and I laughed out loud because I wondered if it was the same thing that I had seen recently on one of the alphabet soup networks where the host was pontificating and saying, you know, there's a national movement in this country where some people believe it or not, some people don't even believe they're their rights come from government. They come from God. I mean, that's a whole movement sweeping the country. Yes. That thought. Apparently, she skipped high school civics that day. The word is inalienable, which means definitively, rights don't come from government. They come from God. And in our democratic republic, we really and truly have the job of preserving, protecting and promoting those rights already given to us by God, not granted to us by government. And yet with this anchor was trying to posit was the reality was that if you believe your rights come from God and not from government, ipso facto you are a Christian nationalist. And then what happens is that's the that's the parasitic opportunity for that to cause a whole infectious idea in the culture that says, if you believe that, well, then you must be a Christian nationalist. That's where we really need tough skin. Do we not to be able to deflect that and understand? Wait a minute. I'm allowed in the public square to espouse what I believe again through a grace narrative, without feeling that somehow I have I have rendered neutral my belief in biblical truth. Am I right on that?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Well said. Let me take a break. Natasha Crane is with us. Her book is called When Culture Hates You. By the way, I would recommend every single book that Natasha has written. This one I've waited for anxiously. It was worth the wait. It is superb. It does a marvelous job of teaching us how to persevere for the common good as Christians in a hostile public back after this. In her latest in her latest book, When Culture Hates You, Natasha Crane writes in two sections. Part one is Understanding the hate, and we've taken some time to discuss that in the background and really good biblical apologetics on this. So we understand what God means by the common good and what His Word compels and directs us to do. The second half, as I noted earlier, is a practicum. It's responding to and persevering through today's most prominent charges, and she offers five views the view from the mainstream media, the view from secular social justice activists, the view from pro-choice activists, the view from transgender activists, and the view from the sexual revolution. At the end of every one of those challenges, she offers us quick responses. In other words, how you can contend when confronted by some of these objections. And then she does something else. Because remember, the subtitle contains the idea of the common good. She offers us in every one of those challenges actions for the common good. So very much hands on, very much pragmatic. So let me walk through a little bit of this, Natasha, and let me go to the idea about sexuality, because the only people apparently saying no, or more to the point, the only institution saying no to outright licentiousness and perversion is the church. And then we're the old fuddy duddies. And if it feels good, do it. And the sexual revolution in the 60s makes it look like a church picnic to what's happening today. So how do we respond when people say that Christians are in fact the bigots here. We're not allowed to say anything about what's going on. Radical redefinition of marriage, polyamory, uh, the list goes on and on and on. But, you know, we don't even need to tick off the perversions. But I think the first chapter of Romans does a really good job on that. But how do we respond when people say, well, you're just being a hateful bigot?