Hi friend, thanks so much for downloading this podcast and I hope you hear something that will edify, encourage, enlighten and get you out there into the marketplace of ideas. But before you listen and before you go, let me tell you about this month's Truth tool. It's a classic. It's written by doctor Josh McDowell and was updated by his son, Doctor Sean McDowell. It's called More Than a Carpenter and I love this classic book. There's about 15 million copies in print around the globe right now, and what this powerful book does is answer some of the basic questions that are being asked constantly by people who are seeking, who want to know who Jesus is. Questions like, Jesus had to be a liar, a lunatic, or he's exactly who he said he was, which is Lord, how do I put science in relationship with my faith? Ah, the Bible records reliable. Who would die for a lie? And isn't there some other way besides Jesus? Those questions and more are answered in this wonderful book called More Than a Carpenter. It's yours for a gift of any amount. When you financially support in the market with Janet Parshall, ask for your copy of More Than a Carpenter. When you call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet parshall.org for a gift of any amount. We'll give you a copy of this Christian classic that will help you know the answer. So in turn you can go and tell somebody who Jesus is. 877 Janet 58 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet parshall.org. And while you're there, consider becoming a partial partner. Those are people who give every single month at a level of their own choosing. They'll always get the truth tool. But in addition, my way of saying thank you is offering you a weekly newsletter that includes some of my writing and an audio piece just from my partial partners. So again, 877 Janet 58 or online at in the Market with Janet parshall.org ask for your copy of More Than a Carpenter and now please enjoy the broadcast.

Hi friend, thanks so much for downloading this podcast and I hope you hear something that will edify, encourage, enlighten and get you out there into the marketplace of ideas. But before you listen and before you go, let me tell you about this month's Truth tool. It's a classic. It's written by doctor Josh McDowell and was updated by his son, Doctor Sean McDowell. It's called More Than a Carpenter and I love this classic book. There's about 15 million copies in print around the globe right now, and what this powerful book does is answer some of the basic questions that are being asked constantly by people who are seeking, who want to know who Jesus is. Questions like, Jesus had to be a liar, a lunatic, or he's exactly who he said he was, which is Lord, how do I put science in relationship with my faith? Ah, the Bible records reliable. Who would die for a lie? And isn't there some other way besides Jesus? Those questions and more are answered in this wonderful book called More Than a Carpenter. It's yours for a gift of any amount. When you financially support in the market with Janet Parshall, ask for your copy of More Than a Carpenter. When you call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet parshall.org for a gift of any amount. We'll give you a copy of this Christian classic that will help you know the answer. So in turn you can go and tell somebody who Jesus is. 877 Janet 58 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet parshall.org. And while you're there, consider becoming a partial partner. Those are people who give every single month at a level of their own choosing. They'll always get the truth tool. But in addition, my way of saying thank you is offering you a weekly newsletter that includes some of my writing and an audio piece just from my partial partners. So again, 877 Janet 58 or online at in the Market with Janet parshall.org ask for your copy of More Than a Carpenter and now please enjoy the broadcast.

Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.

Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.

The conference was over. The president won a pledge.

The conference was over. The president won a pledge.

Americans worshiping government over God.

Americans worshiping government over God.

Extremely rare safety move by a 17 years.

Extremely rare safety move by a 17 years.

The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated This idea is not new.

The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated This idea is not new.

Hi friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you so much for choosing to spend the hour with us. We're opening the phone lines this hour and you are going to need this. (877) 548-3675. What are you talking about, Janet? So glad you asked. Once again, we're going to tackle this subject of narcissism. And let me explain why we do this conversation on a regular basis, because there are a lot of hurting people out there. And this is a very misunderstood issue in the culture at large. But I think particularly in the church, where very often some poor counsel has been given to people who are suffering under this very dangerous personality. Narcissism isn't just about being selfish. We all have that propensity, that tendency. This is about somebody who's so severely damaged that they have, what is all intents and purposes, tantamount to a seared conscience. The cognitive rigidity, if you want the 50 cent term for it, the inability to understand empathy, how other people feel, how your actions impact other people's reaction. And then he or she becomes a master manipulator on the outside, can be just as charming as can be on the inside, just as manipulating and damaging as can be causing abuse. Not the kind that necessarily, although sometimes it happens, but not necessarily produces the black eye or the broken arm. And yet it is abuse and damage nonetheless. What we've discovered in our continuing conversations with Laurel Wagner is that when we opened the door and give you the opportunity to call in, the phone lines light up, which is a pretty good indicator that all across the country there's a lot of pain going on, and we want to give hurting people an opportunity to be able to ask their questions. So here again is the number questions only this hour on the topic of narcissism. That's broad brush. I'm going to start out Start out specifically with an article that will jump start our conversation. But any question you have under the umbrella of the subject of narcissism 87754836758775483675. Let me once, once again introduce to you a very precious friend, someone who understands this not just because she has all of the earned initials after her name as a board Certified Professional Christian Counselor, a licensed mental health counselor, and a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of Florida. Something that she's been doing, by the way, for close to 20 years. But this is a woman who was raised by a narcissist and was brutalized by a narcissist in married life for quite some time until that marriage ended. So when she counsels people, it isn't just head knowledge, it's heart knowledge. It's that precious and important combination of ethos as well as pathos. To that end, she has written a couple of books that deal with this. One is called Don't Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy. How to Stay Sane and Strong. When the narcissist in your life is trying to control or abuse you, and then understanding that children are often the pawns on this chessboard. She wrote the book don't Let Their crazy make your Kids crazy. How to shield your children from their narcissistic parents control and manipulation. She has a wonderful resource called help. I have a narcissist in my life that is a podcast available wherever you go for your podcast. And we've also included on our information page a direct link to her website where if you want to talk privately and professionally with Laurel, you can do that as well. And she hears from listeners all across the country who very much want to be able to have that conversation with Laurel. And you can find her everywhere on social media platforms. So 87754836758775483675. Laurel. The warmest of welcomes. Thank you. I so appreciate our time together. And I came across an article that I thought, boy, this is so germane to so many of the conversations we have. And the article was entitled seven Things Children of Narcissists Bring Up the Most in Therapy. Let me just tick off a couple, because far more importantly, I'd like to hear what you hear from the children of narcissists who come to you for conversations. But a couple of things identified in this article was that these children have a difficult time making decisions. They also have a difficult time choosing healthy partners. Maybe that one's a little bit more self-evident. They have problem identifying their own needs, probably because they've been told to meet somebody else's for so long and they struggle with self-confidence. That's just a few, but it's a great place to start. Let me start first, not with this article. You can echo and affirm anything I've said, but I'd rather hear in your time. When you talk to children of narcissists, what do you hear?

Hi friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you so much for choosing to spend the hour with us. We're opening the phone lines this hour and you are going to need this. (877) 548-3675. What are you talking about, Janet? So glad you asked. Once again, we're going to tackle this subject of narcissism. And let me explain why we do this conversation on a regular basis, because there are a lot of hurting people out there. And this is a very misunderstood issue in the culture at large. But I think particularly in the church, where very often some poor counsel has been given to people who are suffering under this very dangerous personality. Narcissism isn't just about being selfish. We all have that propensity, that tendency. This is about somebody who's so severely damaged that they have, what is all intents and purposes, tantamount to a seared conscience. The cognitive rigidity, if you want the 50 cent term for it, the inability to understand empathy, how other people feel, how your actions impact other people's reaction. And then he or she becomes a master manipulator on the outside, can be just as charming as can be on the inside, just as manipulating and damaging as can be causing abuse. Not the kind that necessarily, although sometimes it happens, but not necessarily produces the black eye or the broken arm. And yet it is abuse and damage nonetheless. What we've discovered in our continuing conversations with Laurel Wagner is that when we opened the door and give you the opportunity to call in, the phone lines light up, which is a pretty good indicator that all across the country there's a lot of pain going on, and we want to give hurting people an opportunity to be able to ask their questions. So here again is the number questions only this hour on the topic of narcissism. That's broad brush. I'm going to start out Start out specifically with an article that will jump start our conversation. But any question you have under the umbrella of the subject of narcissism 87754836758775483675. Let me once, once again introduce to you a very precious friend, someone who understands this not just because she has all of the earned initials after her name as a board Certified Professional Christian Counselor, a licensed mental health counselor, and a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of Florida. Something that she's been doing, by the way, for close to 20 years. But this is a woman who was raised by a narcissist and was brutalized by a narcissist in married life for quite some time until that marriage ended. So when she counsels people, it isn't just head knowledge, it's heart knowledge. It's that precious and important combination of ethos as well as pathos. To that end, she has written a couple of books that deal with this. One is called Don't Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy. How to Stay Sane and Strong. When the narcissist in your life is trying to control or abuse you, and then understanding that children are often the pawns on this chessboard. She wrote the book don't Let Their crazy make your Kids crazy. How to shield your children from their narcissistic parents control and manipulation. She has a wonderful resource called help. I have a narcissist in my life that is a podcast available wherever you go for your podcast. And we've also included on our information page a direct link to her website where if you want to talk privately and professionally with Laurel, you can do that as well. And she hears from listeners all across the country who very much want to be able to have that conversation with Laurel. And you can find her everywhere on social media platforms. So 87754836758775483675. Laurel. The warmest of welcomes. Thank you. I so appreciate our time together. And I came across an article that I thought, boy, this is so germane to so many of the conversations we have. And the article was entitled seven Things Children of Narcissists Bring Up the Most in Therapy. Let me just tick off a couple, because far more importantly, I'd like to hear what you hear from the children of narcissists who come to you for conversations. But a couple of things identified in this article was that these children have a difficult time making decisions. They also have a difficult time choosing healthy partners. Maybe that one's a little bit more self-evident. They have problem identifying their own needs, probably because they've been told to meet somebody else's for so long and they struggle with self-confidence. That's just a few, but it's a great place to start. Let me start first, not with this article. You can echo and affirm anything I've said, but I'd rather hear in your time. When you talk to children of narcissists, what do you hear?

Well, thank you for having me back, Janet. Oh my goodness. It's it's so sad that.

Well, thank you for having me back, Janet. Oh my goodness. It's it's so sad that.

I think we've lost her for a second. So I'll tell you what we're going to do. Let me give that phone number again. 87754836758775483675. And you can start calling in right now. So we can start taking your questions on the topic of narcissism. And again, Laurel Slade Wagner is our guest. And she is a repeat guest on this program for this particular topic because I think she does it so tenderly and so mercifully. It isn't just a matter again of having the head knowledge, but when you lived this experience, you begin to understand exactly how dangerous and pernicious this particular personality is very often. And let me underscore this. So many people feel markedly alone. They don't feel that anybody hears them. They think sometimes they're crazy. The recipient of the abuse starts to think that he or she is crazy, because this person is such a master manipulator. And that, again, is a heartbreaking situation when you think of someone who's really hurting and in pain. So we want to give you a chance to be able to ask your questions. I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to take a break at this point, let me get reconnected so we can get Laurel back on the phone. Lines are already lighting up, as they always do when Laurel comes, but again, this is your opportunity to ask any question you've got on the topic of topic of narcissism. 87754836758775483675. Laurel. Slade. Wagner. The topic narcissism. We're starting with children who are downstream so often of this pain. Why? Because narcissism has a multigenerational impact. It can separate grandchildren from grandparents. It grows children who become bitter and angry because of what they recognize now in their adult years, as abuse that was unidentifiable when they were children. So again, call in with your questions (877) 548-3675. This is in the market with Janet Parshall. We are just getting started. Much more right after this. Few people doubt that Jesus existed, but far too many doubt that Jesus was the Son of God, so how can we know for sure? That's why I've chosen more than a carpenter as this month's truth tool. Get answers to the big questions that will help you know and share the truth. As for your copy of More Than a Carpenter, when you give a gift of any amount to in the market, call 877858. That's 877858 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall or. Visiting with Laurel Slade Wagner, board Certified Professional Christian Counselor with an area of expertise, particularly focusing in on the subject of narcissism. And will you believe me when I tell you that once again the phone lines light up automatically, just as straight across the board, and that tells both Laurel and myself that there are so many hurting people here who really want to know. They want to honor Christ, they want to honor him, particularly in these relationships, but they also want to know how they then shall live with someone with a very abusive personality. So we're taking your calls and thanks for your patience, friends, while we stack your calls at eight, seven, (877) 548-3675. So, Laurel, I just ran off a couple of categories written in an article about children of narcissists and some of the struggles that they have. But I was going to ask you just before, and thank you, by the way, for patience when we reconnected. It's live radio and this happens sometimes, but I wanted to know. Thank you for your patience with that. So tell me not this article I'd like to hear in your sessions, and you're not violating anybody's privacy by giving me a general response. Do you hear the same sorts of things and do you affirm what this article was pointing out?

I think we've lost her for a second. So I'll tell you what we're going to do. Let me give that phone number again. 87754836758775483675. And you can start calling in right now. So we can start taking your questions on the topic of narcissism. And again, Laurel Slade Wagner is our guest. And she is a repeat guest on this program for this particular topic because I think she does it so tenderly and so mercifully. It isn't just a matter again of having the head knowledge, but when you lived this experience, you begin to understand exactly how dangerous and pernicious this particular personality is very often. And let me underscore this. So many people feel markedly alone. They don't feel that anybody hears them. They think sometimes they're crazy. The recipient of the abuse starts to think that he or she is crazy, because this person is such a master manipulator. And that, again, is a heartbreaking situation when you think of someone who's really hurting and in pain. So we want to give you a chance to be able to ask your questions. I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to take a break at this point, let me get reconnected so we can get Laurel back on the phone. Lines are already lighting up, as they always do when Laurel comes, but again, this is your opportunity to ask any question you've got on the topic of topic of narcissism. 87754836758775483675. Laurel. Slade. Wagner. The topic narcissism. We're starting with children who are downstream so often of this pain. Why? Because narcissism has a multigenerational impact. It can separate grandchildren from grandparents. It grows children who become bitter and angry because of what they recognize now in their adult years, as abuse that was unidentifiable when they were children. So again, call in with your questions (877) 548-3675. This is in the market with Janet Parshall. We are just getting started. Much more right after this. Few people doubt that Jesus existed, but far too many doubt that Jesus was the Son of God, so how can we know for sure? That's why I've chosen more than a carpenter as this month's truth tool. Get answers to the big questions that will help you know and share the truth. As for your copy of More Than a Carpenter, when you give a gift of any amount to in the market, call 877858. That's 877858 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall or. Visiting with Laurel Slade Wagner, board Certified Professional Christian Counselor with an area of expertise, particularly focusing in on the subject of narcissism. And will you believe me when I tell you that once again the phone lines light up automatically, just as straight across the board, and that tells both Laurel and myself that there are so many hurting people here who really want to know. They want to honor Christ, they want to honor him, particularly in these relationships, but they also want to know how they then shall live with someone with a very abusive personality. So we're taking your calls and thanks for your patience, friends, while we stack your calls at eight, seven, (877) 548-3675. So, Laurel, I just ran off a couple of categories written in an article about children of narcissists and some of the struggles that they have. But I was going to ask you just before, and thank you, by the way, for patience when we reconnected. It's live radio and this happens sometimes, but I wanted to know. Thank you for your patience with that. So tell me not this article I'd like to hear in your sessions, and you're not violating anybody's privacy by giving me a general response. Do you hear the same sorts of things and do you affirm what this article was pointing out?

Absolutely, Janet. Absolutely. So what I see when children come in, when they have a narcissistic parent is those children do not have a sense of who they are. They don't have a sense of the ability to be able to say no or make decisions. They oftentimes don't know how to pick healthy friendships. They struggle with social anxiety, Anxiety, depression. Sometimes they're overachievers. I work with a lot of teens at one period of time that had a lot of eating disorders and a lot of just workaholic tendencies, because they're just so used to having to make this narcissistic parent happy and give that narcissistic parent an identity through their achievements. So they take on the responsibility for other people's feelings. They they just will not stop people pleasing. They don't know how to say no. They feel chronically guilty if they say no. Um, they don't really just understand that they are precious and they are purpose and that it's okay to have different thoughts and desires than other people. They just they don't know how to be. They don't know how to set long term goals because they don't really see a sense of purpose in their life. And so I do work with a lot of adults that have been in narcissistic relationships and struggle with a lot of those same things. So just with young ones and old ones and they struggle with the same things.

Absolutely, Janet. Absolutely. So what I see when children come in, when they have a narcissistic parent is those children do not have a sense of who they are. They don't have a sense of the ability to be able to say no or make decisions. They oftentimes don't know how to pick healthy friendships. They struggle with social anxiety, Anxiety, depression. Sometimes they're overachievers. I work with a lot of teens at one period of time that had a lot of eating disorders and a lot of just workaholic tendencies, because they're just so used to having to make this narcissistic parent happy and give that narcissistic parent an identity through their achievements. So they take on the responsibility for other people's feelings. They they just will not stop people pleasing. They don't know how to say no. They feel chronically guilty if they say no. Um, they don't really just understand that they are precious and they are purpose and that it's okay to have different thoughts and desires than other people. They just they don't know how to be. They don't know how to set long term goals because they don't really see a sense of purpose in their life. And so I do work with a lot of adults that have been in narcissistic relationships and struggle with a lot of those same things. So just with young ones and old ones and they struggle with the same things.

And that raises an interesting question, Laurel. And then I promise I'll go to the phones because so many people do want to talk to you. This is why, again, we have this conversation repetitively because it isn't just a one off. It is a multi generational lifetime impact. So these individuals who are the children of narcissists, sometimes spend the rest of their life trying to work out the damage that's been caused, am I right?

And that raises an interesting question, Laurel. And then I promise I'll go to the phones because so many people do want to talk to you. This is why, again, we have this conversation repetitively because it isn't just a one off. It is a multi generational lifetime impact. So these individuals who are the children of narcissists, sometimes spend the rest of their life trying to work out the damage that's been caused, am I right?

Absolutely, absolutely. And it's a battle. I mean, I don't think it's a secret. You had said before that I was raised by narcissistic parents. So I struggle with a lot of those same things. And even though God has brought me a lot of healing, there's still those those twinges of, oh, wait a minute, I'm not allowed to say no here. And then I have to renew my mind with truth and and reclaim what the enemy in that moment is trying to steal from me.

Absolutely, absolutely. And it's a battle. I mean, I don't think it's a secret. You had said before that I was raised by narcissistic parents. So I struggle with a lot of those same things. And even though God has brought me a lot of healing, there's still those those twinges of, oh, wait a minute, I'm not allowed to say no here. And then I have to renew my mind with truth and and reclaim what the enemy in that moment is trying to steal from me.

And based on what you've taught us in the past, it seems to me that if you're the golden child, where you're always being favored and vaulted and vicariously being lived through by the narcissist, when that goes away, when they leave the home all of a sudden now their definition of who they are vanishes. And I bet there's an awful lot, whether you're the fair haired child or the disposable child, and you can go back through past broadcasts to hear how Laurel defines those categories of children. But the question of self-definition and identity must very frequently come into play, it seems to me.

And based on what you've taught us in the past, it seems to me that if you're the golden child, where you're always being favored and vaulted and vicariously being lived through by the narcissist, when that goes away, when they leave the home all of a sudden now their definition of who they are vanishes. And I bet there's an awful lot, whether you're the fair haired child or the disposable child, and you can go back through past broadcasts to hear how Laurel defines those categories of children. But the question of self-definition and identity must very frequently come into play, it seems to me.

Yes, absolutely. Because they weren't taught that they were purposed and they were created with just amazing qualities. So they live with all this, this core shame that they are not who their narcissistic parent needs them to be. And so that golden child who was the apple of that narcissistic parent's eye, then all of a sudden they get out in the real world and the real world Doesn't doesn't treat them as they're special and different and better than other people. They have a narcissistic crash themselves, and they have to, at that point, really understand. They get to the end of themselves and really understand. Wait a minute, I have to do all this growing when I'm maybe in my 20s, that I should have been doing all along from a very young age. You know, what we can do to keep our children from becoming narcissistic is we can notice who God created in the person of them, and then nurture it and help them develop those different interests and talents and strengths and things like that, so that they develop this, this divine confidence in God and His ability to create and in themselves. So it's it's harder to do that and reclaim all that when you're older. But I, I want people to know that, that it can be done. So I don't want them to think their their children are doomed. Um, if they had a narcissistic parent.

Yes, absolutely. Because they weren't taught that they were purposed and they were created with just amazing qualities. So they live with all this, this core shame that they are not who their narcissistic parent needs them to be. And so that golden child who was the apple of that narcissistic parent's eye, then all of a sudden they get out in the real world and the real world Doesn't doesn't treat them as they're special and different and better than other people. They have a narcissistic crash themselves, and they have to, at that point, really understand. They get to the end of themselves and really understand. Wait a minute, I have to do all this growing when I'm maybe in my 20s, that I should have been doing all along from a very young age. You know, what we can do to keep our children from becoming narcissistic is we can notice who God created in the person of them, and then nurture it and help them develop those different interests and talents and strengths and things like that, so that they develop this, this divine confidence in God and His ability to create and in themselves. So it's it's harder to do that and reclaim all that when you're older. But I, I want people to know that, that it can be done. So I don't want them to think their their children are doomed. Um, if they had a narcissistic parent.

I'm so glad you said that. Yes. In fact, you just used the operative word. And then I promise I will go to the phones. These are conversations not to discourage you, but to encourage you, because there is always hope, and hope never fails. And you're going to hear Laurel, which is why I keep asking her specifically to come back on this topic. Take us back to the Lord again and again and again. It is how she found healing and hope in her life, and it is how any of us find healing and hope in our lives. (877) 548-3675. Sally in Pennsylvania. Thank you for your patience. Welcome to the conversation. We'd love your question, please.

I'm so glad you said that. Yes. In fact, you just used the operative word. And then I promise I will go to the phones. These are conversations not to discourage you, but to encourage you, because there is always hope, and hope never fails. And you're going to hear Laurel, which is why I keep asking her specifically to come back on this topic. Take us back to the Lord again and again and again. It is how she found healing and hope in her life, and it is how any of us find healing and hope in our lives. (877) 548-3675. Sally in Pennsylvania. Thank you for your patience. Welcome to the conversation. We'd love your question, please.

Yes. Thank you for taking my call. I am curious to know if I should be quite concerned about my daughter. She has dated a wonderful young man for about 11 years. We've expressed to them it's time to move forward. Marry our daughter. They're old enough established. She's been super patient. She's a social worker herself. And so she, um, she's asked and they've gone through counseling to just try to figure out because we believe that his dad, um, was and is a narcissist and mom has done a great job at nurturing him. So he's very talented, but he he is very insecure about himself. He hops around a job. He can't make a decision on marrying our daughter. We recently had phone conversations. Let's get this thing going. We have a family ring that won't cost you much to, you know. So there's there's a lot of motivation that we're helping and supporting them. We love them to death. Um, but my concern is, how much longer can she wait? Is she really stepping into a healthy relationship if he's not willing to commit to her at this point?

Yes. Thank you for taking my call. I am curious to know if I should be quite concerned about my daughter. She has dated a wonderful young man for about 11 years. We've expressed to them it's time to move forward. Marry our daughter. They're old enough established. She's been super patient. She's a social worker herself. And so she, um, she's asked and they've gone through counseling to just try to figure out because we believe that his dad, um, was and is a narcissist and mom has done a great job at nurturing him. So he's very talented, but he he is very insecure about himself. He hops around a job. He can't make a decision on marrying our daughter. We recently had phone conversations. Let's get this thing going. We have a family ring that won't cost you much to, you know. So there's there's a lot of motivation that we're helping and supporting them. We love them to death. Um, but my concern is, how much longer can she wait? Is she really stepping into a healthy relationship if he's not willing to commit to her at this point?

Well, thank you so much for calling in. And it must be so hard as a mom to watch your daughter struggling that way, because I'm sure in her heart she wants to marry this man. And it sounds like he has a lot of other good qualities, but she has to understand that she is also important, and that it's important to her that she is recognized as important in that relationship. So sitting by and saying, I'm going to just wait until he gets better or wants to change, I would encourage her to take a different route. I would encourage her to be more assertive and to get a plan of, okay, these are the things I need you to do, and we need to work toward them and set some boundaries. And then the choice is his. I hear the the music, Janet, so we can talk about it after the break.

Well, thank you so much for calling in. And it must be so hard as a mom to watch your daughter struggling that way, because I'm sure in her heart she wants to marry this man. And it sounds like he has a lot of other good qualities, but she has to understand that she is also important, and that it's important to her that she is recognized as important in that relationship. So sitting by and saying, I'm going to just wait until he gets better or wants to change, I would encourage her to take a different route. I would encourage her to be more assertive and to get a plan of, okay, these are the things I need you to do, and we need to work toward them and set some boundaries. And then the choice is his. I hear the the music, Janet, so we can talk about it after the break.

Such a pro. Thank you Laura I appreciate that. Laura Slade Wagner is our guest, board certified professional Christian counselor. Our topic is narcissism. Your opportunity to ask questions. Laura, let me encourage you. Every line is lit. This is what happens when Laurel comes to visit. And it's a motivator for Laurel and I to continue to have these conversations and afford you the you the opportunity to get your questions answered. (877) 548-3675. Remember, lots of resources that are wrapped around Laurel and her work. Back after this. Laurel Slade Wagner is our guest. She is a board certified professional Christian counselor. She's the author of two books on the topic that are very good. If you don't have them, don't let their crazy make you crazy. And don't let their crazy make your kids crazy. She has a wonderful free resource called help! I have a narcissist in my life. You can find that wherever there's podcasts, and we have a direct link to her website if you would like to speak to her privately and professionally, you can set up an appointment that way. But before I go to another call, Laurel, I got the sense that you wanted to say something more to Sally about her situation in Pennsylvania. Please go ahead.

Such a pro. Thank you Laura I appreciate that. Laura Slade Wagner is our guest, board certified professional Christian counselor. Our topic is narcissism. Your opportunity to ask questions. Laura, let me encourage you. Every line is lit. This is what happens when Laurel comes to visit. And it's a motivator for Laurel and I to continue to have these conversations and afford you the you the opportunity to get your questions answered. (877) 548-3675. Remember, lots of resources that are wrapped around Laurel and her work. Back after this. Laurel Slade Wagner is our guest. She is a board certified professional Christian counselor. She's the author of two books on the topic that are very good. If you don't have them, don't let their crazy make you crazy. And don't let their crazy make your kids crazy. She has a wonderful free resource called help! I have a narcissist in my life. You can find that wherever there's podcasts, and we have a direct link to her website if you would like to speak to her privately and professionally, you can set up an appointment that way. But before I go to another call, Laurel, I got the sense that you wanted to say something more to Sally about her situation in Pennsylvania. Please go ahead.

Well, I just want her daughter to know that a healthy relationship has a few key components, and that's mutual openness and Honesty, mutual care. Concern and effort. Mutual respect for time and feelings and priorities. And the mutual ability to repent. To collaborate. Say sorry. Make amends. Move forward. That set some goals and work together as a couple for what's in the best interest of both people and in the best interest of the relationship. And so Sally's daughter deserves that. And I would just encourage her to to not sit back and wait for him to heal from all of his own issues she is important to. And if she's not being made important in the relationship, then that isn't a healthy relationship and it needs to be made healthy.

Well, I just want her daughter to know that a healthy relationship has a few key components, and that's mutual openness and Honesty, mutual care. Concern and effort. Mutual respect for time and feelings and priorities. And the mutual ability to repent. To collaborate. Say sorry. Make amends. Move forward. That set some goals and work together as a couple for what's in the best interest of both people and in the best interest of the relationship. And so Sally's daughter deserves that. And I would just encourage her to to not sit back and wait for him to heal from all of his own issues she is important to. And if she's not being made important in the relationship, then that isn't a healthy relationship and it needs to be made healthy.

Thank you for that. And Sally, thanks so much for the question. We appreciate your being a part of this. (877) 548-3675 Denise in Tennessee. Welcome. We'd love your question, please.

Thank you for that. And Sally, thanks so much for the question. We appreciate your being a part of this. (877) 548-3675 Denise in Tennessee. Welcome. We'd love your question, please.

Separated from my husband, who I think is a narcissist. I'm positive that he is, um, he. I've been separated for less than six months. As soon as I left, he started talking reconciliation. I am in no way inclined to to ever live in the same, under the same roof with this man. At this point, I'm too broken. Um, I'm just not. I can't feel anything. Um, even with other people, I'm just kind of dead inside. And so what? My question is, can that person who is a narcissist ever become anything or treat you any other way than a narcissist? I knew him for years before we married, and I would have never guessed it less than right about the one year mark. That's when, I don't know. It was like flipping a switch and everything changed.

Separated from my husband, who I think is a narcissist. I'm positive that he is, um, he. I've been separated for less than six months. As soon as I left, he started talking reconciliation. I am in no way inclined to to ever live in the same, under the same roof with this man. At this point, I'm too broken. Um, I'm just not. I can't feel anything. Um, even with other people, I'm just kind of dead inside. And so what? My question is, can that person who is a narcissist ever become anything or treat you any other way than a narcissist? I knew him for years before we married, and I would have never guessed it less than right about the one year mark. That's when, I don't know. It was like flipping a switch and everything changed.

Well, and that's a that's a great question that I get asked so often, Denise, is that can someone who's clinically narcissistic change. And so that's why I say on a lot of the different programs that, yes, they can change. The problem is they they will not change. That's that cognitive rigidity that Janet was mentioning at the beginning of the show. This pridefulness, this obstinance, this defensiveness of their own opinions. That's what the Bible calls biblical foolishness or someone who mocks at God's ways. So Proverbs 18 two says, A fool finds no pleasure in understanding, but delights in airing his own opinions. Um, they they just will not change, can they? I think anyone can change if they invite Jesus into their heart to help them change through the power of the Holy Spirit. But but someone who's biblically foolish. By definition, someone who is clinically narcissistic by diagnosis and definition they will not change. So if you were ever to consider reconciling, you work a very rigorous reconciliation plan. You have you do a working separation where he is working on himself. You're working on yourself. You don't take steps back toward him until there's a lot of growth in the areas of of whatever. However, he was hurting you, that it's a very structured there's lots of eyes on it. You have a counselor, he has a counselor. Both counselors sign off, but both people are ready for marriage counseling. You just methodically work through these different phases of a working separation, and it's all based on authentic repentance. And so if you don't see the fruit in keeping with repentance, then you don't take steps back toward him. And this isn't punishment. This is using the redemptive tools separation so that he wants to surrender to the Lord and do things the Lord way, because the Lord loves him and the Lord wants closeness with him. And so he needs to surrender all these behaviors for that to happen. And and you can work alongside of God to aid in that process by staying separated until you see that authentic repentance, and to see that he's got consistency over time in a lot of that fruit, in keeping with repentance. So I don't know what your support systems are telling you, but there there's some really great support out there. There's Celebrate Recovery and a lot of the churches, and that they help people with codependency to stay strong in the boundary setting so that you can have healthy relationships. It might be with him and it might not, but that's in his court. It's it's the Joshua 2415 thinking. So Joshua 2415 says it's serving the Lord is undesirable to you. You are free to serve what gods you choose, whether it's the gods, your ancestors, or the gods of the living land. But as for me and my household, I'm going to serve the Lord. So you're going to do things God's way. You're going to use the redemptive tools separation that's in the Bible, and you're going to require authentic repentance before you would ever consider reconciling with him.

Well, and that's a that's a great question that I get asked so often, Denise, is that can someone who's clinically narcissistic change. And so that's why I say on a lot of the different programs that, yes, they can change. The problem is they they will not change. That's that cognitive rigidity that Janet was mentioning at the beginning of the show. This pridefulness, this obstinance, this defensiveness of their own opinions. That's what the Bible calls biblical foolishness or someone who mocks at God's ways. So Proverbs 18 two says, A fool finds no pleasure in understanding, but delights in airing his own opinions. Um, they they just will not change, can they? I think anyone can change if they invite Jesus into their heart to help them change through the power of the Holy Spirit. But but someone who's biblically foolish. By definition, someone who is clinically narcissistic by diagnosis and definition they will not change. So if you were ever to consider reconciling, you work a very rigorous reconciliation plan. You have you do a working separation where he is working on himself. You're working on yourself. You don't take steps back toward him until there's a lot of growth in the areas of of whatever. However, he was hurting you, that it's a very structured there's lots of eyes on it. You have a counselor, he has a counselor. Both counselors sign off, but both people are ready for marriage counseling. You just methodically work through these different phases of a working separation, and it's all based on authentic repentance. And so if you don't see the fruit in keeping with repentance, then you don't take steps back toward him. And this isn't punishment. This is using the redemptive tools separation so that he wants to surrender to the Lord and do things the Lord way, because the Lord loves him and the Lord wants closeness with him. And so he needs to surrender all these behaviors for that to happen. And and you can work alongside of God to aid in that process by staying separated until you see that authentic repentance, and to see that he's got consistency over time in a lot of that fruit, in keeping with repentance. So I don't know what your support systems are telling you, but there there's some really great support out there. There's Celebrate Recovery and a lot of the churches, and that they help people with codependency to stay strong in the boundary setting so that you can have healthy relationships. It might be with him and it might not, but that's in his court. It's it's the Joshua 2415 thinking. So Joshua 2415 says it's serving the Lord is undesirable to you. You are free to serve what gods you choose, whether it's the gods, your ancestors, or the gods of the living land. But as for me and my household, I'm going to serve the Lord. So you're going to do things God's way. You're going to use the redemptive tools separation that's in the Bible, and you're going to require authentic repentance before you would ever consider reconciling with him.

Thank you so much for the question. Thank you for the answer as well. And as we say goodbye to that caller, I have one line open. It's your chance to get in on this conversation. (877) 548-3675. Laurel Slade Wagner is with US Board Certified Professional Christian counselor with a specialty in the subject of narcissism. That silent wounding that so often people just don't know where to turn to get help or to get advice. But there is, as Laurel said, and I so want to underscore this, there's always hope. And as the word tells us, hope never, ever fails. (877) 548-3675. More of your calls right after this. Our team of partial partners is growing, and I love communicating behind the scenes with this special group of friends who are devoted to giving a monthly gift to in the market. Our partial partners receive private emails direct from me on issues we don't address on radio, and I even send a weekly audio message straight from my heart to yours. Ready to become a partial partner? Call 877858877858 or go to in the market with Janet parshall.org. You are You are listening to in the market with Janet Parshall. If you're just joining us, welcome. We're talking with Laurel Slade Wagner, who's a board certified professional Christian counselor. She's written a couple of books on the topic. Don't let their Crazy Make You Crazy How to stay Sane and strong. When the narcissist in your life is trying to control or abuse you. And then a companion book called Don't Let Their Crazy Make Your Kids Crazy How to shield your Children from Their Narcissistic Parents Control and Manipulation. She also has a wonderful podcast entitled help! I have a narcissist in my life. You can find that wherever there are podcasts where you go for your favorite podcasts, including I Hope in the market with Janet Parshall. And if you're just joining us, that's how you can pick up on hearing the first half of my conversation. Just go to wherever you go for your favorite podcast download in the market with Janet Parshall, and you can hear This hour in its entirety, or either of the two hours we do every day. Going back a full year. So our audio library is always one year old to the date. Let me go right back to the phones. Because as is so stereotypical, when Laura comes to Laurel comes to visit. We have every line that is lit. So I want to get as many of your calls answered as I can. Deena in New Mexico, thank you so for your patience and for joining us. And we'd love your question now, please.

Thank you so much for the question. Thank you for the answer as well. And as we say goodbye to that caller, I have one line open. It's your chance to get in on this conversation. (877) 548-3675. Laurel Slade Wagner is with US Board Certified Professional Christian counselor with a specialty in the subject of narcissism. That silent wounding that so often people just don't know where to turn to get help or to get advice. But there is, as Laurel said, and I so want to underscore this, there's always hope. And as the word tells us, hope never, ever fails. (877) 548-3675. More of your calls right after this. Our team of partial partners is growing, and I love communicating behind the scenes with this special group of friends who are devoted to giving a monthly gift to in the market. Our partial partners receive private emails direct from me on issues we don't address on radio, and I even send a weekly audio message straight from my heart to yours. Ready to become a partial partner? Call 877858877858 or go to in the market with Janet parshall.org. You are You are listening to in the market with Janet Parshall. If you're just joining us, welcome. We're talking with Laurel Slade Wagner, who's a board certified professional Christian counselor. She's written a couple of books on the topic. Don't let their Crazy Make You Crazy How to stay Sane and strong. When the narcissist in your life is trying to control or abuse you. And then a companion book called Don't Let Their Crazy Make Your Kids Crazy How to shield your Children from Their Narcissistic Parents Control and Manipulation. She also has a wonderful podcast entitled help! I have a narcissist in my life. You can find that wherever there are podcasts where you go for your favorite podcasts, including I Hope in the market with Janet Parshall. And if you're just joining us, that's how you can pick up on hearing the first half of my conversation. Just go to wherever you go for your favorite podcast download in the market with Janet Parshall, and you can hear This hour in its entirety, or either of the two hours we do every day. Going back a full year. So our audio library is always one year old to the date. Let me go right back to the phones. Because as is so stereotypical, when Laura comes to Laurel comes to visit. We have every line that is lit. So I want to get as many of your calls answered as I can. Deena in New Mexico, thank you so for your patience and for joining us. And we'd love your question now, please.

Hi. I'll try to make it quick. Um, I have a 16 year old daughter who's been going back and forth for the last five years with her dad, and I would say he fits those categories. And over the five years she's seen me battle and try to work out of it, and I get the luxury of being fully separated. But she doesn't. She goes back and forth. So we're constantly having these conversations and she's aware of what's going on, but she wants to be obedient to her dad. And so it's very hard. The other night she cried out and she said, am I going to have to live my entire life like this? And I hurt for her, and I was just wondering where I can send her for help while she's going through this.

Hi. I'll try to make it quick. Um, I have a 16 year old daughter who's been going back and forth for the last five years with her dad, and I would say he fits those categories. And over the five years she's seen me battle and try to work out of it, and I get the luxury of being fully separated. But she doesn't. She goes back and forth. So we're constantly having these conversations and she's aware of what's going on, but she wants to be obedient to her dad. And so it's very hard. The other night she cried out and she said, am I going to have to live my entire life like this? And I hurt for her, and I was just wondering where I can send her for help while she's going through this.

Mhm. Mhm.

Mhm. Mhm.

I can just hear the pain in your voice. Oh my Oh my goodness. Um, the the good thing is she's 16 years old and so she, you can work with her on on having a voice and trying to articulate what her needs are and so you can work with her and help her be able to, um, write her dad a letter and let her dad know that maybe she needs a break, uh, from the going back and forth. She doesn't have to say anything about his character or about him, but just let him know that she needs a little break, that she's under a lot of stress. 16 years old. That's a tough year. They're they have a lot of jobs at the age of 16. Not only are they having to attend to all their schoolwork, they're having to think about post-high school graduation, whether they're going to go to college, taking the SATs multiple times, all those kinds of things. So she's a very busy person. And so she tries to just appeal to him that way, to say, I just need a little break so that she can kind of get stronger. Um, Janet was referencing my book that I wrote for parents who have children where the other parent is narcissistic, and there's a lot of tools in that book about helping her be able to learn how to be assertive, about boundary setting, about healthy relationships, about, um, identity formation, all kinds of things. And so if he disrespects her and he doesn't honor her for saying, hey, I have a need here and I just need to take a little break, then that's showing that it is not healthy. And then she needs to continue with that assertiveness and say, no, I do need to take a break and I need you to respect that. And so she tries to work and then she you can get her connected with the Christian counselor. You can what I recommend is Going on the American Association of Christian Counselors website. Find a counselor page, and putting in your zip code and a bunch of options will pop up. I also recommend calling 2 or 3 or even four of the larger churches in your area. A lot of them on their website will have a list of counselors they refer people to. If not, you can call their care department and ask who they refer to for counseling. Ideally, you want to look for some overlap of those counselors names that that means that counselors are pretty good and gets a lot of referrals from the churches. And and so you want. It takes a lot of legwork to to find someone that's good. And you might have to ask them, you know, several questions. You know, do they understand power dynamics? Do they work with children of divorce? Different things like that? Do they work with assertiveness training? You do a little bit of research and you get her connected with a Christian counselor. Then if if she needs to stop that time sharing, then that counselor can advocate on her on her behalf. So then it's not you against her dad and where she's having to choose. And then also, there's just more leverage, legal leverage that way in case he tries to take you to court or anything like that. So you're just getting advocacy built up so that she can get her needs met.

I can just hear the pain in your voice. Oh my Oh my goodness. Um, the the good thing is she's 16 years old and so she, you can work with her on on having a voice and trying to articulate what her needs are and so you can work with her and help her be able to, um, write her dad a letter and let her dad know that maybe she needs a break, uh, from the going back and forth. She doesn't have to say anything about his character or about him, but just let him know that she needs a little break, that she's under a lot of stress. 16 years old. That's a tough year. They're they have a lot of jobs at the age of 16. Not only are they having to attend to all their schoolwork, they're having to think about post-high school graduation, whether they're going to go to college, taking the SATs multiple times, all those kinds of things. So she's a very busy person. And so she tries to just appeal to him that way, to say, I just need a little break so that she can kind of get stronger. Um, Janet was referencing my book that I wrote for parents who have children where the other parent is narcissistic, and there's a lot of tools in that book about helping her be able to learn how to be assertive, about boundary setting, about healthy relationships, about, um, identity formation, all kinds of things. And so if he disrespects her and he doesn't honor her for saying, hey, I have a need here and I just need to take a little break, then that's showing that it is not healthy. And then she needs to continue with that assertiveness and say, no, I do need to take a break and I need you to respect that. And so she tries to work and then she you can get her connected with the Christian counselor. You can what I recommend is Going on the American Association of Christian Counselors website. Find a counselor page, and putting in your zip code and a bunch of options will pop up. I also recommend calling 2 or 3 or even four of the larger churches in your area. A lot of them on their website will have a list of counselors they refer people to. If not, you can call their care department and ask who they refer to for counseling. Ideally, you want to look for some overlap of those counselors names that that means that counselors are pretty good and gets a lot of referrals from the churches. And and so you want. It takes a lot of legwork to to find someone that's good. And you might have to ask them, you know, several questions. You know, do they understand power dynamics? Do they work with children of divorce? Different things like that? Do they work with assertiveness training? You do a little bit of research and you get her connected with a Christian counselor. Then if if she needs to stop that time sharing, then that counselor can advocate on her on her behalf. So then it's not you against her dad and where she's having to choose. And then also, there's just more leverage, legal leverage that way in case he tries to take you to court or anything like that. So you're just getting advocacy built up so that she can get her needs met.

And Dina, that's the American Association of Christian Counselors. And if memory serves, it's archive.org Racc. Org. They are marvelous. And it really it's a consortium of Christian counselors all across the country. So you just got some wonderful counsel from Laurel on that. And may you be encouraged as well. (877) 548-3675. Mary, welcome. Thanks for joining us from Illinois. Your question please.

And Dina, that's the American Association of Christian Counselors. And if memory serves, it's archive.org Racc. Org. They are marvelous. And it really it's a consortium of Christian counselors all across the country. So you just got some wonderful counsel from Laurel on that. And may you be encouraged as well. (877) 548-3675. Mary, welcome. Thanks for joining us from Illinois. Your question please.

Yes.

Yes.

Hello. Thank you for taking my call. I was wondering how to speak in love to the person that you love, which is a sibling who I believe is I have narcissistic behavior. Um, because it's just been steady, always putting me down over the years and a big difference in age apart. I'm the eldest, but the other person acts like they're the older one, giving me always, um, direction and things like that. Which things that I already know. Not that I know everything. And I'm just wondering, how do you speak to that person in love? Now they act distant, and even though they say, oh, we're family, you know, we have to stick together. But they're acting very, very distant. And I know in my heart is supposed to be speaking to this person in love, but I don't know how to do it because it ends up in arguments and screaming matches.

Hello. Thank you for taking my call. I was wondering how to speak in love to the person that you love, which is a sibling who I believe is I have narcissistic behavior. Um, because it's just been steady, always putting me down over the years and a big difference in age apart. I'm the eldest, but the other person acts like they're the older one, giving me always, um, direction and things like that. Which things that I already know. Not that I know everything. And I'm just wondering, how do you speak to that person in love? Now they act distant, and even though they say, oh, we're family, you know, we have to stick together. But they're acting very, very distant. And I know in my heart is supposed to be speaking to this person in love, but I don't know how to do it because it ends up in arguments and screaming matches.

Yeah, that's a tough one. Um, so it's a sibling. So you do what God instructs in the Bible? You. You try to speak the truth in love and talk about. I recommend talking about what you need from an eye perspective. Like I would like this, I. I need this instead of, you know, telling them there's something wrong that they're doing. So try to invite them into a different way of relating with you. If they do not listen, that's where you you want to say, hey, you know, I'm feeling disrespected here. I really want to work through this. I really want to have a close relationship with you. I need you to stop putting me down or parenting me in order for that to happen. And if they still don't listen, then you do pull back. You pull back emotionally and guard your heart. Like the Bible says. You might have to pull back your physical presence. Um, and that is exactly what God wants you to do. That's he has lots of instructional scriptures that talk about those processes. He is a God of process, and he understands every type of person's heart out there and has a plan for it, so he doesn't want you to keep putting yourself in a position of being diminished or disrespected or disregarded. That's not helping you and that's not helping your narcissistic sister. So once again, the whole goal is, is for her to be filled with the Holy Spirit, have a close relationship with God, and and treat other people the way that God wants her to treat other people with gentleness and kindness and goodness and self-control and all those things that are the fruit of having a close relationship with the Holy Spirit. So don't keep letting her hurt you. There is a strategy to pull yourself out of this.

Yeah, that's a tough one. Um, so it's a sibling. So you do what God instructs in the Bible? You. You try to speak the truth in love and talk about. I recommend talking about what you need from an eye perspective. Like I would like this, I. I need this instead of, you know, telling them there's something wrong that they're doing. So try to invite them into a different way of relating with you. If they do not listen, that's where you you want to say, hey, you know, I'm feeling disrespected here. I really want to work through this. I really want to have a close relationship with you. I need you to stop putting me down or parenting me in order for that to happen. And if they still don't listen, then you do pull back. You pull back emotionally and guard your heart. Like the Bible says. You might have to pull back your physical presence. Um, and that is exactly what God wants you to do. That's he has lots of instructional scriptures that talk about those processes. He is a God of process, and he understands every type of person's heart out there and has a plan for it, so he doesn't want you to keep putting yourself in a position of being diminished or disrespected or disregarded. That's not helping you and that's not helping your narcissistic sister. So once again, the whole goal is, is for her to be filled with the Holy Spirit, have a close relationship with God, and and treat other people the way that God wants her to treat other people with gentleness and kindness and goodness and self-control and all those things that are the fruit of having a close relationship with the Holy Spirit. So don't keep letting her hurt you. There is a strategy to pull yourself out of this.

Thank you Thank you Mary. Appreciate so much your being a part of our conversation. Vera, let me welcome you, now, if I may, from Ohio. Thanks for being here. And your question.

Thank you Thank you Mary. Appreciate so much your being a part of our conversation. Vera, let me welcome you, now, if I may, from Ohio. Thanks for being here. And your question.

Yes. Thank you so much for taking my call. Can you hear.

Yes. Thank you so much for taking my call. Can you hear.

Me? I can, loud and clear. Thank you. Vera.

Me? I can, loud and clear. Thank you. Vera.

Okay, great. Um, I just want to say thank you so much, uh, Miss Parshall, for having, um, a law on this. I've listened to you. I love your show. And this is just such a wonderful, um, topic to talk about because I. I grew up from a narcissistic family, and I'm healing from my own challenges with it. I'm trying to encourage my son, who is dealing with a father who shows all the signs and, um, he's he's an adult child now, but he struggled quite a bit. And I just want to encourage him in the right way. As a matter of fact, while I was waiting for my call to be taken, I heard a number of things that actually answered my question. So thank you so much for for all of the resourceful information that's been provided, I just want to encourage my son and how he can recognize, um, how his father is not, um, relating to him in the most healthy way and that it's and that it's all right for my son to to acknowledge that and start to give himself permission to, to take care of what he needs to do for himself.

Okay, great. Um, I just want to say thank you so much, uh, Miss Parshall, for having, um, a law on this. I've listened to you. I love your show. And this is just such a wonderful, um, topic to talk about because I. I grew up from a narcissistic family, and I'm healing from my own challenges with it. I'm trying to encourage my son, who is dealing with a father who shows all the signs and, um, he's he's an adult child now, but he struggled quite a bit. And I just want to encourage him in the right way. As a matter of fact, while I was waiting for my call to be taken, I heard a number of things that actually answered my question. So thank you so much for for all of the resourceful information that's been provided, I just want to encourage my son and how he can recognize, um, how his father is not, um, relating to him in the most healthy way and that it's and that it's all right for my son to to acknowledge that and start to give himself permission to, to take care of what he needs to do for himself.

Um, yes. Absolutely. You you have so much love in your heart for him, and he absolutely needs to give himself permission to set those boundaries. So in the the first book, it talks a lot about narcissism. In the first section, it talks about what narcissism is. If your son is an adult, he can read that book it talks about. There's a section toward the back that talks about how to interact with someone who's narcissistic. And then And then in the middle there's a, there's a section about how to stay strong and, and really reclaim that righteous anger and give yourself permission to set these boundaries. Um, so that might be a good read for him.

Um, yes. Absolutely. You you have so much love in your heart for him, and he absolutely needs to give himself permission to set those boundaries. So in the the first book, it talks a lot about narcissism. In the first section, it talks about what narcissism is. If your son is an adult, he can read that book it talks about. There's a section toward the back that talks about how to interact with someone who's narcissistic. And then And then in the middle there's a, there's a section about how to stay strong and, and really reclaim that righteous anger and give yourself permission to set these boundaries. Um, so that might be a good read for him.

And let me help you get that book, if I can. Vera. Just go to in the market with Janet parshall.org. On that front page of the website you're going to see a red box. It says program details and audio. Click that on and it takes you over to the information page. And that's where all the resources reside from the people that we get to talk to on a daily basis. And you have a link to Laurel's two books. So click on through and it will take you to the website where you can purchase a copy as well. So in the market with Janet parshall.org red box that says program Details and audio. It will take you to the book back after this. We're visiting with Laurel Slade Wagner who is a board Certified professional Christian counselor, a licensed mental health counselor, and a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of Florida. She's been She's been doing this good work for close to 20 years, and we're so thankful that she's with us and talks to us about narcissism. It's a sad, terrible, bad, awful topic that affects so many people. And sometimes people who are downstream of the abuse of the abuser don't know where to turn to, aren't even sure how they identify this, because this is a wounding that you don't see on the outside, but it is unbelievably impactful on the inside. And that's why we have these conversations. Heather, you've been so patient in Tennessee and I greatly appreciate that. Please welcome to the conversation. Your question please. Are you there, Heather? Are you there? Try one more time. Heather. I'm so sorry we missed you. We'd love to have had you a part of the conversation and let me go to Denise then instead in Pennsylvania. Denise, welcome.

And let me help you get that book, if I can. Vera. Just go to in the market with Janet parshall.org. On that front page of the website you're going to see a red box. It says program details and audio. Click that on and it takes you over to the information page. And that's where all the resources reside from the people that we get to talk to on a daily basis. And you have a link to Laurel's two books. So click on through and it will take you to the website where you can purchase a copy as well. So in the market with Janet parshall.org red box that says program Details and audio. It will take you to the book back after this. We're visiting with Laurel Slade Wagner who is a board Certified professional Christian counselor, a licensed mental health counselor, and a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of Florida. She's been She's been doing this good work for close to 20 years, and we're so thankful that she's with us and talks to us about narcissism. It's a sad, terrible, bad, awful topic that affects so many people. And sometimes people who are downstream of the abuse of the abuser don't know where to turn to, aren't even sure how they identify this, because this is a wounding that you don't see on the outside, but it is unbelievably impactful on the inside. And that's why we have these conversations. Heather, you've been so patient in Tennessee and I greatly appreciate that. Please welcome to the conversation. Your question please. Are you there, Heather? Are you there? Try one more time. Heather. I'm so sorry we missed you. We'd love to have had you a part of the conversation and let me go to Denise then instead in Pennsylvania. Denise, welcome.

Thank you so much. Um, I have sort of a two part question. I have had two failed marriages to narcissists, and I have two adult children to the first husband. And the first part of my question is, how would you speak to a mom who really has survivor's guilt? Because I got to leave him and they still have to deal with the aggression, and they have children now, but also they've done a great job at communicating their boundaries, what he can and can't do in their homes and with their spouses and with their kids. And so they haven't seen him in a while. But he'll say to them now he'll call them and say, what are you going to do when I just show up? And it's causing some fear and I want to know how to help them.

Thank you so much. Um, I have sort of a two part question. I have had two failed marriages to narcissists, and I have two adult children to the first husband. And the first part of my question is, how would you speak to a mom who really has survivor's guilt? Because I got to leave him and they still have to deal with the aggression, and they have children now, but also they've done a great job at communicating their boundaries, what he can and can't do in their homes and with their spouses and with their kids. And so they haven't seen him in a while. But he'll say to them now he'll call them and say, what are you going to do when I just show up? And it's causing some fear and I want to know how to help them.

My goodness. Precious. Denise, I'm so sorry you're having to go through all that. First and foremost, I want you to know that this is not your fault and it's not your doing. Their dad made choices, and he is responsible for the pain, not you. I don't I don't want you to feel for one second because you got to get out of the the marriage that you're at fault for their pain. It's 100% their dad's fault. So it is false guilt and that is from the enemy. So you praise God. You modeled to them that abuse is not to be tolerated. And there are ways to stop the abuse. So you gave them a tremendous gift by setting those boundaries and getting out is nothing to feel guilty for. I praise God that they are able to set boundaries with him, and that they continue to set boundaries. I love the Scripture Matthew 1815 through 17 that says, if your brother sins against you, go and work it out between the two of you. If you will not listen, you bring the witnesses, you still won't listen. You take it to the church or the governing body and you still want listen. You treat them like a pagan or a tax collector. That's a very strategic process of what to do. And that can be applied in so in so many instances. So if he's threatening them that he's just going to show up. Okay, well then we're going to get the witnesses. And in this case, it would be the police. And the police will have a talk with him and not let him in the door. So if he just shows up, they are just going to call the police. They're not going to answer the door. They are just going to let the witnesses do that. So he's disrespecting their boundaries. He's not safe. He's not listening. You get the witnesses. So there's there's always a process to keep them safe. If you still won't listen, then they stop all contact. They block him. Um, there's there's next steps to add more and more separation until he backs off. If he doesn't back off, that's on him then. But at least they're insulated from his behaviors and they don't need to feel guilty about that. That that is, they are doing what God wants them to do when someone is being foolish. God is very strategic. And he understands their pain and he does not want that to continue.

My goodness. Precious. Denise, I'm so sorry you're having to go through all that. First and foremost, I want you to know that this is not your fault and it's not your doing. Their dad made choices, and he is responsible for the pain, not you. I don't I don't want you to feel for one second because you got to get out of the the marriage that you're at fault for their pain. It's 100% their dad's fault. So it is false guilt and that is from the enemy. So you praise God. You modeled to them that abuse is not to be tolerated. And there are ways to stop the abuse. So you gave them a tremendous gift by setting those boundaries and getting out is nothing to feel guilty for. I praise God that they are able to set boundaries with him, and that they continue to set boundaries. I love the Scripture Matthew 1815 through 17 that says, if your brother sins against you, go and work it out between the two of you. If you will not listen, you bring the witnesses, you still won't listen. You take it to the church or the governing body and you still want listen. You treat them like a pagan or a tax collector. That's a very strategic process of what to do. And that can be applied in so in so many instances. So if he's threatening them that he's just going to show up. Okay, well then we're going to get the witnesses. And in this case, it would be the police. And the police will have a talk with him and not let him in the door. So if he just shows up, they are just going to call the police. They're not going to answer the door. They are just going to let the witnesses do that. So he's disrespecting their boundaries. He's not safe. He's not listening. You get the witnesses. So there's there's always a process to keep them safe. If you still won't listen, then they stop all contact. They block him. Um, there's there's next steps to add more and more separation until he backs off. If he doesn't back off, that's on him then. But at least they're insulated from his behaviors and they don't need to feel guilty about that. That that is, they are doing what God wants them to do when someone is being foolish. God is very strategic. And he understands their pain and he does not want that to continue.

Denise, thank you so much. I hope you were encouraged by that answer, and I thank you so for being a part of this conversation. Heather, I'm so glad we have you back in Tennessee. Thank you for joining us. Your question please.

Denise, thank you so much. I hope you were encouraged by that answer, and I thank you so for being a part of this conversation. Heather, I'm so glad we have you back in Tennessee. Thank you for joining us. Your question please.

Hi. Thank you guys for taking my call. So, um, I am still married to my husband of 20 years, and we have six children. And through the entire marriage, there were physical and verbal abuse. Um, and I hid it from my family and friends, so no one knew about the abuse. I just have like videos and, you know, texts and stuff that were sent to me. And, um, recently we separated. We separated twice within two years. And, um, now my kids are affected. I have an older daughter that's 18 and then a 16 year old, and they're just in complete rebellion because they've only seen him, like, hit me and verbally abused me through the entire marriage. And so my question is this after so many years of taking the abuse and just trying to hold my marriage together, and I've been going to church all through, and I was told that I'm not allowed to leave. My husband and I need to stay in the marriage. This is by the church. And so I never left the marriage, even when he was on drugs, even when he had addiction, even when he cheated everything. I never left the marriage. I just stayed in the marriage and I enjoyed it. And my kids, they saw this. And so my two older daughters, they were in rebellion. And the last thing that happened was, um, it was like a flip situation where he, like, attacked me. And, um, I ended up slapping him. He came in my face and I was arrested right away. So all the time he hit me. I never called the cops. And this time, when I was scared, I slapped him and I went to jail. So I ended up separating, leaving him. And I just wanted to see, like he's been begging to get back with me. But there has been no, like, remorse, no kind of change, nothing of that nature. Um, he comes to where I live at, I moved away, he goes to another city, he lives in another city. And I'm just trying to, like, figure out what to do or what my next step is, you know?

Hi. Thank you guys for taking my call. So, um, I am still married to my husband of 20 years, and we have six children. And through the entire marriage, there were physical and verbal abuse. Um, and I hid it from my family and friends, so no one knew about the abuse. I just have like videos and, you know, texts and stuff that were sent to me. And, um, recently we separated. We separated twice within two years. And, um, now my kids are affected. I have an older daughter that's 18 and then a 16 year old, and they're just in complete rebellion because they've only seen him, like, hit me and verbally abused me through the entire marriage. And so my question is this after so many years of taking the abuse and just trying to hold my marriage together, and I've been going to church all through, and I was told that I'm not allowed to leave. My husband and I need to stay in the marriage. This is by the church. And so I never left the marriage, even when he was on drugs, even when he had addiction, even when he cheated everything. I never left the marriage. I just stayed in the marriage and I enjoyed it. And my kids, they saw this. And so my two older daughters, they were in rebellion. And the last thing that happened was, um, it was like a flip situation where he, like, attacked me. And, um, I ended up slapping him. He came in my face and I was arrested right away. So all the time he hit me. I never called the cops. And this time, when I was scared, I slapped him and I went to jail. So I ended up separating, leaving him. And I just wanted to see, like he's been begging to get back with me. But there has been no, like, remorse, no kind of change, nothing of that nature. Um, he comes to where I live at, I moved away, he goes to another city, he lives in another city. And I'm just trying to, like, figure out what to do or what my next step is, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh my goodness. Heather. I just pray for protection over you and for divine wisdom and for people, supportive people, to come into your life and advocacy to come into your life that can advocate. So I do not recommend, um, reconciling if there's no fruit in keeping with repentance, if there's no repentance. You have been through so much and physical assault and verbal assault, any kind of assault, it's not acceptable. It's not how God wants you to be treated. So I recommend getting with legal counsel, trying to see if you can get some protective orders in place. Um, and get a support system, maybe get some, uh, some counsel recommendations from a domestic violence, uh, facility in your area. Um, but you are not created to be treated that way. You absolutely were not. You are precious, precious, beautiful person. So I recommend not taking him back and trying to to grieve the loss and build a life outside of him.