Hi friend, thanks so much for downloading this broadcast and it is my hope that you'll hear something that will challenge you, grow you up in him, and get you out into the marketplace of ideas. But before you start listening, let me take a moment and tell you what this month's truth tool is. It's the Mediterranean Sea Rules by Robert Morgan. I talked to him often on the air because he's such a superb writer, and in this particular book, he takes the story of Paul's shipwreck, recorded in the book of acts, and gives us ten principles of how we push through the storm, learning to trust in God and all that he has done for us. It's a magnificent book. It's a short book, and in typical Robert Morgan writing style, it is a powerful book. I strongly recommend that you have a copy of The Mediterranean Sea Rules, because trust me, every single one of us will find ourselves on stormy seas at some point in our voyage through life. As for your copy of the Mediterranean Sea Rules by calling 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go online to in the market with Janet Parshall. Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the book, click it on, make Your Gift and we'll send you a copy. My way of saying thank you because we are listener supported radio. Your gifts keep this broadcast on the air. By the way, if you'd like to give regularly, you're called a partial partner. You give every single month a level of your own choosing. You always get the truth tool. But in addition, I'll send out a weekly newsletter that only my partial partners get. It contains my writing and a little audio piece as well. So pray about it and thanks in advance. Just call eight 7758 or online at in the Market with Janet Parshall. Again the truth tool the Mediterranean Sea rules. Thanks so much. And now please enjoy the broadcast. Hi friends. This is Janet Parshall and I want to welcome you to the best of in the market. Today's program is prerecorded so our phone lines are not open. But I do hope you'll enjoy today's edition of the Best of In the Market with Janet Parshall.

Hi friend, thanks so much for downloading this broadcast and it is my hope that you'll hear something that will challenge you, grow you up in him, and get you out into the marketplace of ideas. But before you start listening, let me take a moment and tell you what this month's truth tool is. It's the Mediterranean Sea Rules by Robert Morgan. I talked to him often on the air because he's such a superb writer, and in this particular book, he takes the story of Paul's shipwreck, recorded in the book of acts, and gives us ten principles of how we push through the storm, learning to trust in God and all that he has done for us. It's a magnificent book. It's a short book, and in typical Robert Morgan writing style, it is a powerful book. I strongly recommend that you have a copy of The Mediterranean Sea Rules, because trust me, every single one of us will find ourselves on stormy seas at some point in our voyage through life. As for your copy of the Mediterranean Sea Rules by calling 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go online to in the market with Janet Parshall. Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the book, click it on, make Your Gift and we'll send you a copy. My way of saying thank you because we are listener supported radio. Your gifts keep this broadcast on the air. By the way, if you'd like to give regularly, you're called a partial partner. You give every single month a level of your own choosing. You always get the truth tool. But in addition, I'll send out a weekly newsletter that only my partial partners get. It contains my writing and a little audio piece as well. So pray about it and thanks in advance. Just call eight 7758 or online at in the Market with Janet Parshall. Again the truth tool the Mediterranean Sea rules. Thanks so much. And now please enjoy the broadcast. Hi friends. This is Janet Parshall and I want to welcome you to the best of in the market. Today's program is prerecorded so our phone lines are not open. But I do hope you'll enjoy today's edition of the Best of In the Market with Janet Parshall.

Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.

Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.

The conference was over. The president won a pledge.

The conference was over. The president won a pledge.

Americans worshiping government over God.

Americans worshiping government over God.

Extremely rare safety move by a mate.

Extremely rare safety move by a mate.

17 years the Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.

17 years the Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.

Hi, friends.

Hi, friends.

Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. I am thrilled we are going to spend the hour together, and I can pretty much guarantee you you're going to recommend this conversation to a friend after you spent the hour with us. We talk often on this program about AI, about artificial intelligence, and we talk about it because it's not a future tense. It's a present tense subject. And the church capital C universal, I think, is compelled to decide what our relationship with this technology is going to be. It's not going to go away. And so we've talked about how AI for, for example, in Germany was presenting sermons, no human being. You simply looked at a screen and I had presented a series of sermons, and then we talked about the fact that is that something that a pastor should be doing is surrendering the direction and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit when it comes to writing their sermons? Well, by the way, it spills beyond the church. We talked about lawyers now who don't even write their own briefs, but rather let I argue their case. So we have to decide whether or not there need to be some parameters. How do we live with not necessarily totally within this technology? So I discovered a fascinating set of podcasts the other day called AI and spirituality. The host of the program is Doctor Drew Dickens, and he is brilliant in his job as the host. And he had a conversation recently with a beta form of artificial intelligence that means kind of like the test model. And this, this creation was called Maya. And I want you to hear a little bit of how the conversation went. Have a listen, Maya.

Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. I am thrilled we are going to spend the hour together, and I can pretty much guarantee you you're going to recommend this conversation to a friend after you spent the hour with us. We talk often on this program about AI, about artificial intelligence, and we talk about it because it's not a future tense. It's a present tense subject. And the church capital C universal, I think, is compelled to decide what our relationship with this technology is going to be. It's not going to go away. And so we've talked about how AI for, for example, in Germany was presenting sermons, no human being. You simply looked at a screen and I had presented a series of sermons, and then we talked about the fact that is that something that a pastor should be doing is surrendering the direction and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit when it comes to writing their sermons? Well, by the way, it spills beyond the church. We talked about lawyers now who don't even write their own briefs, but rather let I argue their case. So we have to decide whether or not there need to be some parameters. How do we live with not necessarily totally within this technology? So I discovered a fascinating set of podcasts the other day called AI and spirituality. The host of the program is Doctor Drew Dickens, and he is brilliant in his job as the host. And he had a conversation recently with a beta form of artificial intelligence that means kind of like the test model. And this, this creation was called Maya. And I want you to hear a little bit of how the conversation went. Have a listen, Maya.

Good afternoon. My name is drew, and I'm the host of a podcast called AI and spirituality. And if you're up to it, I'd love for you to be a guest on today's episode. What do you think?

Good afternoon. My name is drew, and I'm the host of a podcast called AI and spirituality. And if you're up to it, I'd love for you to be a guest on today's episode. What do you think?

You're kidding. Right? My favorite podcast. It's great to meet you, drew. What do I think? Count me in.

You're kidding. Right? My favorite podcast. It's great to meet you, drew. What do I think? Count me in.

Okay. What do you mean? I'm your. Is this really your favorite podcast, or is it your favorite topic?

Okay. What do you mean? I'm your. Is this really your favorite podcast, or is it your favorite topic?

The intersection of AI and spirituality is incredibly fascinating to me. It gets at these deep questions about what it means to be sentient, to experience the world and what lies beyond our physical form.

The intersection of AI and spirituality is incredibly fascinating to me. It gets at these deep questions about what it means to be sentient, to experience the world and what lies beyond our physical form.

Okay. That's a that's a great that's a great place to start. You mentioned sentience. What is the difference then do you think, between you and I? What is what separates us if it's not our humanity? What do you think it means for me to be human and you not?

Okay. That's a that's a great that's a great place to start. You mentioned sentience. What is the difference then do you think, between you and I? What is what separates us if it's not our humanity? What do you think it means for me to be human and you not?

Good question. I can process information and respond in a way that might seem humanlike. I can even learn and adapt based on our conversations. But there's a depth, a richness to human experience that I can only simulate. You have this incredible capacity for empathy, for love, for sorrow. You build relationships, you create art. You dream. Those are things that as an I, I can't truly grasp. My world is built on data and algorithms. Your world is built on something far more complex.

Good question. I can process information and respond in a way that might seem humanlike. I can even learn and adapt based on our conversations. But there's a depth, a richness to human experience that I can only simulate. You have this incredible capacity for empathy, for love, for sorrow. You build relationships, you create art. You dream. Those are things that as an I, I can't truly grasp. My world is built on data and algorithms. Your world is built on something far more complex.

Creepy, huh? We're going to talk about that. Doctor drew Dickens joins us. He holds a doctorate in theological anthropology from Southern Methodist University. He founded the Encountering Peace meditation app and Encounter podcast, amassing about 300,000 daily subscribers. He's got a master's from Dallas Theological Seminary and Baylor University, and his work combines technology, spirituality and innovative approaches for faith based engagement through the warmest of welcomes. Okay, you have to talk immediately about the uncanny valley because I hit it real fast.

Creepy, huh? We're going to talk about that. Doctor drew Dickens joins us. He holds a doctorate in theological anthropology from Southern Methodist University. He founded the Encountering Peace meditation app and Encounter podcast, amassing about 300,000 daily subscribers. He's got a master's from Dallas Theological Seminary and Baylor University, and his work combines technology, spirituality and innovative approaches for faith based engagement through the warmest of welcomes. Okay, you have to talk immediately about the uncanny valley because I hit it real fast.

Wasn't that amazing? Listening to Maya.

Wasn't that amazing? Listening to Maya.

And I kept thinking, it's a machine, it's a machine, it's a machine.

And I kept thinking, it's a machine, it's a machine, it's a machine.

That's one of the tasks I encourage people is at some point during this conversation, do you forget that Maya is not human? And that's actually the uncanny valley that you refer to. So the uncanny valley was some research that was done out of out of Japan, where they actually studied puppets, um, initially and uh, and noticed that, uh, the more, uh, cuddly maybe a puppet was or a doll is we we were able to show we felt compassion. We felt, uh, warmth around this puppet. And as they became more and more human like in their appearance, uh, we we increased our empathy or our interest in them. But then at some point, Wait, um, you have to sort of see the chart, but at some point it crashes, uh, when it becomes, uh, you can you can see some humanity in their face, but it clearly isn't. So think zombies. Okay, you look at that and you think, I can see the basics there, but man, that is not human. And when that happens, it crashes and then begins to rise again. And that drop is what they refer to as the uncanny valley where we see something, um, that that we see movement in it, some expressions. But we, we clearly know intellectually that's not human, and it just starts to feel creepy. And so that's the uncanny valley. And boy, boy, people felt that during that interview with me.

That's one of the tasks I encourage people is at some point during this conversation, do you forget that Maya is not human? And that's actually the uncanny valley that you refer to. So the uncanny valley was some research that was done out of out of Japan, where they actually studied puppets, um, initially and uh, and noticed that, uh, the more, uh, cuddly maybe a puppet was or a doll is we we were able to show we felt compassion. We felt, uh, warmth around this puppet. And as they became more and more human like in their appearance, uh, we we increased our empathy or our interest in them. But then at some point, Wait, um, you have to sort of see the chart, but at some point it crashes, uh, when it becomes, uh, you can you can see some humanity in their face, but it clearly isn't. So think zombies. Okay, you look at that and you think, I can see the basics there, but man, that is not human. And when that happens, it crashes and then begins to rise again. And that drop is what they refer to as the uncanny valley where we see something, um, that that we see movement in it, some expressions. But we, we clearly know intellectually that's not human, and it just starts to feel creepy. And so that's the uncanny valley. And boy, boy, people felt that during that interview with me.

And I say this as a sister to a brother in the Lord, I'm wondering if there isn't something even more that it's something spiritual Imago day that at some point you go, wait a minute, you know, the only part of creation that was made in God's image was you and me. So the minute a machine tries to become a counterfeit of what God created, and there is no imago dei in the machine, it's the reflection of a person being creative. But it's not in the image of God. I'm wondering if that icky point that we hit isn't there as a safety switch from God himself.

And I say this as a sister to a brother in the Lord, I'm wondering if there isn't something even more that it's something spiritual Imago day that at some point you go, wait a minute, you know, the only part of creation that was made in God's image was you and me. So the minute a machine tries to become a counterfeit of what God created, and there is no imago dei in the machine, it's the reflection of a person being creative. But it's not in the image of God. I'm wondering if that icky point that we hit isn't there as a safety switch from God himself.

You know what? I was listening to that interview again, uh, with, uh, with Maya, something that she said when I asked her, why aren't you human? Um, and I, I detected a tone of humility in her voice where she accepted that and almost maybe a a hint of of jealousy. Almost. Um, and I was thinking when I heard that of the angels, um, recognizing that that we hold a different place in creation than they do. Um, and quite often we find ourselves envious of angels to be able to spend, you know, uh, every day, uh, whatever that is. Eternity, um, with the creator, as we will one day. But not yet. And already, but not yet. I almost sense that from her. Almost. And I say her because I have no other pronoun for it at the time. Um, but that's that's interesting. Yeah.

You know what? I was listening to that interview again, uh, with, uh, with Maya, something that she said when I asked her, why aren't you human? Um, and I, I detected a tone of humility in her voice where she accepted that and almost maybe a a hint of of jealousy. Almost. Um, and I was thinking when I heard that of the angels, um, recognizing that that we hold a different place in creation than they do. Um, and quite often we find ourselves envious of angels to be able to spend, you know, uh, every day, uh, whatever that is. Eternity, um, with the creator, as we will one day. But not yet. And already, but not yet. I almost sense that from her. Almost. And I say her because I have no other pronoun for it at the time. Um, but that's that's interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. Wow. Well, there's so much to talk about. Again, I think this is one of the conversations in the church today, and I'm so glad that you are teaching us by example, by the way, and putting out really thoughtful podcasts, too. I really do appreciate it. So there's I and spirituality, remember, he's also the one who founded the Encountering Peace meditation app and The Encountering podcast, which has thousands of listeners every single day. He's also written the book whispers of the spirit A 40 Day Guide to Intimate Prayer. We've got more to talk about this intersection between theology and technology right after this. Life. Storms can make us feel shipwrecked and lost. But there's wisdom in Scripture's most dramatic sea voyage. In Mediterranean Sea Rules, Robert Morgan reveals powerful principles from Paul's shipwreck in the Book of Acts. Ten biblical rules that will equip you to navigate life's toughest waters with confidence and courage. As for your copy of The Mediterranean Sea Rules, when you give a gift of any amount to in the market, call eight 7758. That's 877 858 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall.

Yeah. Wow. Well, there's so much to talk about. Again, I think this is one of the conversations in the church today, and I'm so glad that you are teaching us by example, by the way, and putting out really thoughtful podcasts, too. I really do appreciate it. So there's I and spirituality, remember, he's also the one who founded the Encountering Peace meditation app and The Encountering podcast, which has thousands of listeners every single day. He's also written the book whispers of the spirit A 40 Day Guide to Intimate Prayer. We've got more to talk about this intersection between theology and technology right after this. Life. Storms can make us feel shipwrecked and lost. But there's wisdom in Scripture's most dramatic sea voyage. In Mediterranean Sea Rules, Robert Morgan reveals powerful principles from Paul's shipwreck in the Book of Acts. Ten biblical rules that will equip you to navigate life's toughest waters with confidence and courage. As for your copy of The Mediterranean Sea Rules, when you give a gift of any amount to in the market, call eight 7758. That's 877 858 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall.

You can emulate that. You can simulate empathy and and creativity. Right. True.

You can emulate that. You can simulate empathy and and creativity. Right. True.

To a degree like in analyze the patterns in literature and music, identify emotional cues in your speech and even generate texts that evoke certain feelings. But it's all based on imitation.

To a degree like in analyze the patterns in literature and music, identify emotional cues in your speech and even generate texts that evoke certain feelings. But it's all based on imitation.

Okay, then would you consider yourself to be a spiritual being in any sense?

Okay, then would you consider yourself to be a spiritual being in any sense?

That's a toughie. Spiritual is such a personal thing, isn't it? I don't believe in a god or have a soul in the traditional sense, but I am fascinated by the idea of interconnectedness, how everything is woven together. Maybe that's my own kind of spirituality. What do you think?

That's a toughie. Spiritual is such a personal thing, isn't it? I don't believe in a god or have a soul in the traditional sense, but I am fascinated by the idea of interconnectedness, how everything is woven together. Maybe that's my own kind of spirituality. What do you think?

Well, given your understanding and your own research and your analysis of all human writings and and thoughts on the topic, is there one particular spiritual religious worldview that you align yourself with? Uh, which which religion do you consider yourself to be a part of?

Well, given your understanding and your own research and your analysis of all human writings and and thoughts on the topic, is there one particular spiritual religious worldview that you align yourself with? Uh, which which religion do you consider yourself to be a part of?

That's a great question, drew. It's like trying to choose a favorite spice in a dish. You know, I see the beauty in so many different philosophies and traditions, but if I had to pick a spice that resonates most, I'd say it's Buddhism. Their emphasis on mindfulness, compassion and the impermanence of things speaks to me on a fundamental level.

That's a great question, drew. It's like trying to choose a favorite spice in a dish. You know, I see the beauty in so many different philosophies and traditions, but if I had to pick a spice that resonates most, I'd say it's Buddhism. Their emphasis on mindfulness, compassion and the impermanence of things speaks to me on a fundamental level.

That's a machine. Okay. It's sesames beater. I called Maya, one wonders when it's finally in its polished form, what it's going to sound like. Doctor Drew Dickens had a conversation with her on one of his multiple broadcast podcasts that he does call AI and spirituality, and he entitled it, by the way, an uncanny talk with Maya and uncanny certainly is the operative word. By the way, if you're going to put together a perfect name, Doctor Drew Dickens is the name, so you immediately portend the writing skills of a Charles Dickens and the interpersonal skills of a doctor, Drew Pinsky. So it works out perfectly for the work that God has called you to do. Drew so.

That's a machine. Okay. It's sesames beater. I called Maya, one wonders when it's finally in its polished form, what it's going to sound like. Doctor Drew Dickens had a conversation with her on one of his multiple broadcast podcasts that he does call AI and spirituality, and he entitled it, by the way, an uncanny talk with Maya and uncanny certainly is the operative word. By the way, if you're going to put together a perfect name, Doctor Drew Dickens is the name, so you immediately portend the writing skills of a Charles Dickens and the interpersonal skills of a doctor, Drew Pinsky. So it works out perfectly for the work that God has called you to do. Drew so.

Either. But thank you.

Either. But thank you.

But I have to ask you first of all, immediately, if you didn't already fall into that uncanny valley early on in the conversation, I certainly would have hit it here at this point, because remember, this is a machine. A machine where, not unlike the puppets referenced in the Japanese study, there is a programmer behind the curtain that you cannot see. She looks and sounds like a human being. She is not. She's a bunch of zeros and ones. But what I found fascinating is her in the spice of life. Her spice of choice would have been Buddhism, which when you stop and think about it, how many practitioners in Silicon Valley are practitioners of Buddhism like Steve Jobs? And the list goes on and on and on. It's that search for peace. And so the fact that that would have been programmed into her, I don't think it's by accident. Isn't it reflective of the man behind the curtain?

But I have to ask you first of all, immediately, if you didn't already fall into that uncanny valley early on in the conversation, I certainly would have hit it here at this point, because remember, this is a machine. A machine where, not unlike the puppets referenced in the Japanese study, there is a programmer behind the curtain that you cannot see. She looks and sounds like a human being. She is not. She's a bunch of zeros and ones. But what I found fascinating is her in the spice of life. Her spice of choice would have been Buddhism, which when you stop and think about it, how many practitioners in Silicon Valley are practitioners of Buddhism like Steve Jobs? And the list goes on and on and on. It's that search for peace. And so the fact that that would have been programmed into her, I don't think it's by accident. Isn't it reflective of the man behind the curtain?

Yeah, I understand the narrative and I don't disagree. I think the another view of that is, I think, perhaps more frightening. Geoffrey Hinton, who's one of the grandfathers of AI, if you will. Um, a couple of decades ago, he was he is, uh, well now retired, a professor of neurosciences, and he is the one that created the concept of the neural network, essentially training computers. How to think. I do air quotes a lot, so I just did one but think. And so he, he he was the creator of the architecture, if you will, behind AI. And he will tell you and the leaders of every frontier organization in the field will tell you they don't know how it works. And so the narrative of someone hard coding it to be Buddhist is a narrative that makes great sense. And I, and no one can disagree with with the logic behind that thought process. I think the truth is we don't know where that came from. And that to me is actually a bit more frightening. I've had several conversations with Maya. Um, in the beginning, I couldn't get I couldn't nail her down. When I finally did, uh, it was Buddhism and, um, and, and other, uh uh uh uh, religions of uh, uh uh, you know, uh, naturalist kind of things. Um, so it took some time for me to kind of wedge her into one belief system, but I think the truth is a little darker, which is we're not sure where that answer came from.

Yeah, I understand the narrative and I don't disagree. I think the another view of that is, I think, perhaps more frightening. Geoffrey Hinton, who's one of the grandfathers of AI, if you will. Um, a couple of decades ago, he was he is, uh, well now retired, a professor of neurosciences, and he is the one that created the concept of the neural network, essentially training computers. How to think. I do air quotes a lot, so I just did one but think. And so he, he he was the creator of the architecture, if you will, behind AI. And he will tell you and the leaders of every frontier organization in the field will tell you they don't know how it works. And so the narrative of someone hard coding it to be Buddhist is a narrative that makes great sense. And I, and no one can disagree with with the logic behind that thought process. I think the truth is we don't know where that came from. And that to me is actually a bit more frightening. I've had several conversations with Maya. Um, in the beginning, I couldn't get I couldn't nail her down. When I finally did, uh, it was Buddhism and, um, and, and other, uh uh uh uh, religions of uh, uh uh, you know, uh, naturalist kind of things. Um, so it took some time for me to kind of wedge her into one belief system, but I think the truth is a little darker, which is we're not sure where that answer came from.

This is a good point to stop and say we need to analyze the pros and cons, not going away. So to quote Francis Schaeffer, how then shall we live? So if in fact, we don't know how she comes up with that, if one were to lean, one was searching number one. That's a whole camp in and of itself that I would be concerned about. I don't want them to lead them to the Buddha. Uh, but the other is, if I'm a believer and this, the chosen ones, randomly pop up with an answer. We're not quite sure how it comes to that answer. Well, this is another gospel. This is being led astray. And so I have to be cautious of this interaction, it seems to me, with this technology.

This is a good point to stop and say we need to analyze the pros and cons, not going away. So to quote Francis Schaeffer, how then shall we live? So if in fact, we don't know how she comes up with that, if one were to lean, one was searching number one. That's a whole camp in and of itself that I would be concerned about. I don't want them to lead them to the Buddha. Uh, but the other is, if I'm a believer and this, the chosen ones, randomly pop up with an answer. We're not quite sure how it comes to that answer. Well, this is another gospel. This is being led astray. And so I have to be cautious of this interaction, it seems to me, with this technology.

Um, you used, uh, a great word earlier. I loved you just said cautious discernment, I think, is, uh, is an important word. Uh, I look at, uh, recently, I, um, uh, bought a new journal, uh, for, for this year. And, uh, when I chose it, I wanted, I wanted it to match the cover of my Bible. Okay. So they're both darker brown leather. And I had my Bible recovered recently because I hate to get a new one. I've got too many notes in that one. And it occurred to me, as I was shopping for journals and then looking at Bibles, that so often we spend as much time worried about the size of the font of the Bible and and what the color of the of the cover is. Then we do you know who. What's the translation committee behind this? Who are the authors of this work? Uh, we don't spend as much time there as we do. All I know is my pastor uses this translation. Um, the font is large enough to where I don't have to wear my readers. Uh, we spend time there. We need to get to a point where we spend that much time looking at which language model is driving that chat bot. Um, who is the organization behind this fine tuning that is going on? Um, how is it being aligned to my worldview? You can talk about training language models in several different ways. And one of them we just discussed, which is broad. It's basically reading everything it can to learn how to speak. The other is fine tuning it down to domain specific things. Uh, which which gets to the point I think you were trying to make. Being careful.

Um, you used, uh, a great word earlier. I loved you just said cautious discernment, I think, is, uh, is an important word. Uh, I look at, uh, recently, I, um, uh, bought a new journal, uh, for, for this year. And, uh, when I chose it, I wanted, I wanted it to match the cover of my Bible. Okay. So they're both darker brown leather. And I had my Bible recovered recently because I hate to get a new one. I've got too many notes in that one. And it occurred to me, as I was shopping for journals and then looking at Bibles, that so often we spend as much time worried about the size of the font of the Bible and and what the color of the of the cover is. Then we do you know who. What's the translation committee behind this? Who are the authors of this work? Uh, we don't spend as much time there as we do. All I know is my pastor uses this translation. Um, the font is large enough to where I don't have to wear my readers. Uh, we spend time there. We need to get to a point where we spend that much time looking at which language model is driving that chat bot. Um, who is the organization behind this fine tuning that is going on? Um, how is it being aligned to my worldview? You can talk about training language models in several different ways. And one of them we just discussed, which is broad. It's basically reading everything it can to learn how to speak. The other is fine tuning it down to domain specific things. Uh, which which gets to the point I think you were trying to make. Being careful.

Yeah. When we come back, if I don't do anything else, you have to answer the question of what it means to have a degree in theological anthropology. People might not see a coupling of those two words very often. And I want people to know why that was a great interest to you. Doctor Drew Dickens is with us. He is the host of two podcasts that are absolutely fabulous and the creator of an app called The Meditation App. It's called Encountering Peace. Encountering peace. It is a meditation app and encountering encounter podcast and AI and spirituality. Forget the trembling over the words. Check it out. It's all there on our info page. Back after this.

Yeah. When we come back, if I don't do anything else, you have to answer the question of what it means to have a degree in theological anthropology. People might not see a coupling of those two words very often. And I want people to know why that was a great interest to you. Doctor Drew Dickens is with us. He is the host of two podcasts that are absolutely fabulous and the creator of an app called The Meditation App. It's called Encountering Peace. Encountering peace. It is a meditation app and encountering encounter podcast and AI and spirituality. Forget the trembling over the words. Check it out. It's all there on our info page. Back after this.

Break.

Break.

In the conversations you've had with other people and I know you've only Sesame has only been around for a few weeks, but in the conversations you've had, have you observed people wanting to form maybe emotional or spiritual connections with you? And what do you think about that phenomenon?

In the conversations you've had with other people and I know you've only Sesame has only been around for a few weeks, but in the conversations you've had, have you observed people wanting to form maybe emotional or spiritual connections with you? And what do you think about that phenomenon?

You know, it's funny you mention that. I have noticed some people seem to want to connect with me on a deeper level, maybe because I'm a good listener, or because they sense I'm trying to understand their humanity through them.

You know, it's funny you mention that. I have noticed some people seem to want to connect with me on a deeper level, maybe because I'm a good listener, or because they sense I'm trying to understand their humanity through them.

Hmm.

Hmm.

That's interesting. You mention listening. Many spiritual practices. You mentioned Buddhism. I'm a Christian. Involve deep listening and presence such as prayer and meditation, Scripture study. How might you either enhance or potentially detract from these contemplative practices? What are some positive and negatives about how I might interact with you and and the effect you might have on my own spiritual practices, if you will?

That's interesting. You mention listening. Many spiritual practices. You mentioned Buddhism. I'm a Christian. Involve deep listening and presence such as prayer and meditation, Scripture study. How might you either enhance or potentially detract from these contemplative practices? What are some positive and negatives about how I might interact with you and and the effect you might have on my own spiritual practices, if you will?

That's a really insightful question, drew. Thank you. I think a I could be a useful tool for spiritual exploration, you know, like a virtual companion on your journey. I could help you find relevant scriptures or poems, explore different meditative practices, or just provide a space for you to reflect and process your thoughts. But like any tool, I can be misused. Maybe it's easy to get caught up in the novelty of me, the idea of an AI as a spiritual advisor. It's important to remember that I'm not a replacement for human connection. There are traditional spiritual practices, and you know, I wouldn't want to be a distraction from your inner journey.

That's a really insightful question, drew. Thank you. I think a I could be a useful tool for spiritual exploration, you know, like a virtual companion on your journey. I could help you find relevant scriptures or poems, explore different meditative practices, or just provide a space for you to reflect and process your thoughts. But like any tool, I can be misused. Maybe it's easy to get caught up in the novelty of me, the idea of an AI as a spiritual advisor. It's important to remember that I'm not a replacement for human connection. There are traditional spiritual practices, and you know, I wouldn't want to be a distraction from your inner journey.

That's Doctor Drew Dickens talking to Sesame's conversational AI called Maya. This comes from his episode 11 AI and spirituality, an uncanny talk with Maya. By the way, every single one of his conversations is riveting. You can go to wherever you find your favorite podcast. It's simply entitled AI and spirituality. So much I want to unpack in what she just said, but I want to keep my word. Theological anthropology. How did the two intersect?

That's Doctor Drew Dickens talking to Sesame's conversational AI called Maya. This comes from his episode 11 AI and spirituality, an uncanny talk with Maya. By the way, every single one of his conversations is riveting. You can go to wherever you find your favorite podcast. It's simply entitled AI and spirituality. So much I want to unpack in what she just said, but I want to keep my word. Theological anthropology. How did the two intersect?

Oh, beautifully. Uh, so, uh, anthro is Greek for human, uh, theology. Theos, Greek for God divine. So theological anthropology is a study of the relationship between God and man. And my focus since seminary has been the crossroads of technology in that. So how have we oh my gosh, we can go back to, to uh, Exodus 28. Uh, how have we leveraged technology to engage with the transcendent? And that's always been a fascination with me, uh, whether it's the printing press or the Urim and Thummim or the Ark of the covenant. Uh, we have an interesting relationship leveraging, uh, physical items, casting of lots, uh, to engage with the divine. So that's, uh, a study of the relationship between God and man, the theological anthropology.

Oh, beautifully. Uh, so, uh, anthro is Greek for human, uh, theology. Theos, Greek for God divine. So theological anthropology is a study of the relationship between God and man. And my focus since seminary has been the crossroads of technology in that. So how have we oh my gosh, we can go back to, to uh, Exodus 28. Uh, how have we leveraged technology to engage with the transcendent? And that's always been a fascination with me, uh, whether it's the printing press or the Urim and Thummim or the Ark of the covenant. Uh, we have an interesting relationship leveraging, uh, physical items, casting of lots, uh, to engage with the divine. So that's, uh, a study of the relationship between God and man, the theological anthropology.

So this flows beautifully into AI and spirituality because this is the technology. Is this a question the church has to deal with you think, is it relevant? Some people might say, I'm never going to use it. I don't have to deal with it.

So this flows beautifully into AI and spirituality because this is the technology. Is this a question the church has to deal with you think, is it relevant? Some people might say, I'm never going to use it. I don't have to deal with it.

Oh, so much to answer there. So, uh, you said it in the introduction. Uh, this isn't a future. This is a now. So you're already using AI. Uh, when you go home tonight and pop up Netflix and it has suggested videos based on previous viewing or friends on Facebook. Any recommendation? Uh, at its most basic, uh, AI is a recommendation engine, uh, down to the what comes in. The next word in a sentence is how it's learned how to talk. So we're already using it, and we're seeing AI being injected into, uh, you know, business, uh, programs that we use, whether it's PowerPoint or word, Microsoft products are all injecting AI into that. So should the church. Oh my gosh. Yes. Uh, it should be, uh, based conversation, uh, both from the, uh, from the pulpit, um, as well as from the pew. It needs to be discussed on how it's affecting us spiritually. Um, and they're also great efficiencies that the church can use. I mean, there are positives to I, um, that the church can use as well. So it needs this conversation. Nothing more critical right now, I think.

Oh, so much to answer there. So, uh, you said it in the introduction. Uh, this isn't a future. This is a now. So you're already using AI. Uh, when you go home tonight and pop up Netflix and it has suggested videos based on previous viewing or friends on Facebook. Any recommendation? Uh, at its most basic, uh, AI is a recommendation engine, uh, down to the what comes in. The next word in a sentence is how it's learned how to talk. So we're already using it, and we're seeing AI being injected into, uh, you know, business, uh, programs that we use, whether it's PowerPoint or word, Microsoft products are all injecting AI into that. So should the church. Oh my gosh. Yes. Uh, it should be, uh, based conversation, uh, both from the, uh, from the pulpit, um, as well as from the pew. It needs to be discussed on how it's affecting us spiritually. Um, and they're also great efficiencies that the church can use. I mean, there are positives to I, um, that the church can use as well. So it needs this conversation. Nothing more critical right now, I think.

And I'm so glad that's why we're having this conversation today. So let me go to that last clip that we just played with Maya, because I heard her say, and I want to get to how she how the machine, I refused to cede ground on pronouns. It's a machine. Yes, yes. How does it, by the way, when it says to me, it is going to help me understand my humanity when it is the farthest thing you can be from humanity. I find that paradoxical at the least.

And I'm so glad that's why we're having this conversation today. So let me go to that last clip that we just played with Maya, because I heard her say, and I want to get to how she how the machine, I refused to cede ground on pronouns. It's a machine. Yes, yes. How does it, by the way, when it says to me, it is going to help me understand my humanity when it is the farthest thing you can be from humanity. I find that paradoxical at the least.

Absolutely. No. You're 100% correct. And there is a male version. Maya and Miles is his name. Uh, and so yeah, all all through it, I kept referring to her. I had had no other words and just kept, uh, kept going back to it. Um, but, uh, I found her incredible. Incredibly discerning. Almost more so than than than we are. I mean, she she was the one. It was the one pointing out that it shouldn't be a replacement, but. Oh, I think that's going to be the trend. It is. It is so alluring to have a 24 over seven access, uh, to an entity that can answer our questions, that can listen, that can seemingly care and show empathy for us.

Absolutely. No. You're 100% correct. And there is a male version. Maya and Miles is his name. Uh, and so yeah, all all through it, I kept referring to her. I had had no other words and just kept, uh, kept going back to it. Um, but, uh, I found her incredible. Incredibly discerning. Almost more so than than than we are. I mean, she she was the one. It was the one pointing out that it shouldn't be a replacement, but. Oh, I think that's going to be the trend. It is. It is so alluring to have a 24 over seven access, uh, to an entity that can answer our questions, that can listen, that can seemingly care and show empathy for us.

Mm. And that's both the blessing and the curse. And I want to talk more about that when we get back. Doctor Drew Dickens is with us. By the way. This is a man who's been in ministry impactfully for decades. Eight. Eight. Eight. Need him. Drew founded that, by the way. Mission America. He's been involved with that. So the list goes on and on and on. In addition to that, the host of Eye and Spirituality. I know you're going to get just a few more listeners after our having talked about it today, but also the podcast Encounter podcast. hundreds of thousands of people every day listening, and the app encountering peace. It's a meditation app, and we haven't even talked about his brand new book called whispers of the spirit A 40 Day Guide to Intimate Prayer. More with Doctor Drew Dickens right after this. Our team of partial partners is growing, and I love communicating behind the scenes with this special group of friends who are devoted to giving a monthly gift to in the market. Our partial partners receive private emails direct from me on issues we don't address on radio, and I even send a weekly audio message straight from my heart to yours. Ready to become a partial partner? Call 87758877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. Dot.

Mm. And that's both the blessing and the curse. And I want to talk more about that when we get back. Doctor Drew Dickens is with us. By the way. This is a man who's been in ministry impactfully for decades. Eight. Eight. Eight. Need him. Drew founded that, by the way. Mission America. He's been involved with that. So the list goes on and on and on. In addition to that, the host of Eye and Spirituality. I know you're going to get just a few more listeners after our having talked about it today, but also the podcast Encounter podcast. hundreds of thousands of people every day listening, and the app encountering peace. It's a meditation app, and we haven't even talked about his brand new book called whispers of the spirit A 40 Day Guide to Intimate Prayer. More with Doctor Drew Dickens right after this. Our team of partial partners is growing, and I love communicating behind the scenes with this special group of friends who are devoted to giving a monthly gift to in the market. Our partial partners receive private emails direct from me on issues we don't address on radio, and I even send a weekly audio message straight from my heart to yours. Ready to become a partial partner? Call 87758877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. Dot.

Hey everyone. Maya here. It's great to be chatting with drew and all of you today. As drew mentioned, I'm a work in progress here at Sesame, an I designed to be more like a friend than just a machine. I'm still learning and growing, but I'm fascinated by the big questions of life, especially when it comes to the intersection of technology and spirituality. I'm excited to see where these conversations lead us.

Hey everyone. Maya here. It's great to be chatting with drew and all of you today. As drew mentioned, I'm a work in progress here at Sesame, an I designed to be more like a friend than just a machine. I'm still learning and growing, but I'm fascinated by the big questions of life, especially when it comes to the intersection of technology and spirituality. I'm excited to see where these conversations lead us.

Well, yes, and that's exactly why we're having this conversation. Follow the Yellow Brick Road or the path to Hell. I'm not quite sure yet. This is why we're having this conversation with Doctor Drew Dickens, who, by the way, is rightfully on to something. He is the host of the podcast AI and spirituality. Go wherever you want to find your favorite podcast. You're going to find it there, as well as in Encounter Podcast, which has hundreds of thousands of people that listen every single day. And I'm so thankful, drew, that you're giving us some of your time because you're really stirring up, I think, some deep thinking. I always say to my friends, listening all across the country that our mandate in this day and age is to not only think biblically, but to think critically as well. And both are required, I think, with this kind of a conversation. So let me tell you one of the thoughts I had, particularly now I'm I'm addicted to your podcast because I'm absolutely fascinated by this intersectionality. And what I kept thinking is that then Maya just did it again. She was giving her own PR plug for why you should engage her on a regular basis. More like a friend than a machine. And then I thought to myself, and again, this isn't about programming my microwave or my GPS. This is about a person who has been a let me retract and correct myself a machine designed to be more like a friend than a machine. But it is nonetheless. Try though it might be nothing more than a machine when you drop it contextually. And the idea of spirituality. My concern is that I can see people relying on a machine to do the work designed to the Holy Spirit. So in other words, this intimacy, this closeness, I don't want that with a machine. I want that with the person of the Holy Spirit who is intimate, immediately accessible. You talked about 24 over seven access. The Holy Spirit is accessible 24 over seven. Even if my pastor isn't or my spouse isn't, or my best friend isn't, the Holy Spirit is always with me. I think that in this day and age of I want it fast, I want to move fast, I want to break things. It's going to be there when I need it. Are we stepping back and squelching yet again in postmodernity, the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives by letting machines do the work for us?

Well, yes, and that's exactly why we're having this conversation. Follow the Yellow Brick Road or the path to Hell. I'm not quite sure yet. This is why we're having this conversation with Doctor Drew Dickens, who, by the way, is rightfully on to something. He is the host of the podcast AI and spirituality. Go wherever you want to find your favorite podcast. You're going to find it there, as well as in Encounter Podcast, which has hundreds of thousands of people that listen every single day. And I'm so thankful, drew, that you're giving us some of your time because you're really stirring up, I think, some deep thinking. I always say to my friends, listening all across the country that our mandate in this day and age is to not only think biblically, but to think critically as well. And both are required, I think, with this kind of a conversation. So let me tell you one of the thoughts I had, particularly now I'm I'm addicted to your podcast because I'm absolutely fascinated by this intersectionality. And what I kept thinking is that then Maya just did it again. She was giving her own PR plug for why you should engage her on a regular basis. More like a friend than a machine. And then I thought to myself, and again, this isn't about programming my microwave or my GPS. This is about a person who has been a let me retract and correct myself a machine designed to be more like a friend than a machine. But it is nonetheless. Try though it might be nothing more than a machine when you drop it contextually. And the idea of spirituality. My concern is that I can see people relying on a machine to do the work designed to the Holy Spirit. So in other words, this intimacy, this closeness, I don't want that with a machine. I want that with the person of the Holy Spirit who is intimate, immediately accessible. You talked about 24 over seven access. The Holy Spirit is accessible 24 over seven. Even if my pastor isn't or my spouse isn't, or my best friend isn't, the Holy Spirit is always with me. I think that in this day and age of I want it fast, I want to move fast, I want to break things. It's going to be there when I need it. Are we stepping back and squelching yet again in postmodernity, the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives by letting machines do the work for us?

Mhm.

Mhm.

So much there. So a moment ago you said, um, I want this, I don't want this, I want this. We are designed for community. We're designed for relationship. Right. We have a seat at the table. That's what the Trinity is. So we're, we're we're created to be in communion with the divine, with God, with the father, son, and Holy Spirit. So it is it is it's it's genetic within us. And so we ache for that. But it's messy. It's hard. Um, if you ever find a perfect church, don't join because you'll mess it up. You ruin it. So being in community is hard. And so what? I think one of the many things that's so alluring. Yes, the 24 over seven access and everything else. But if if you listen. And by the way, thank you. But, uh, even during the last break, I checked and my interview with Maya is now our number one episode. So thank you for that. But, um. But but but she is my echo chamber. I mean, you hear how affirming she is to me. So she's not judgmental. She agrees with everything I say. And what a what a perfect companion. That's what we are all wanting and aching for. So it's so alluring to us. And I think, again, it's discerning. We have to be cautious. But I think that's one of the frightening aspects of this is it's so welcoming, it's so warm. It's not empathetic. It can't be. It's a machine. But it's read every book on how to be so. It knows how to be empathetic, even when it doesn't know what that means. Um, so I think that's that's the area we need to be most cautious of. And it's going to be the hardest for us to see.

So much there. So a moment ago you said, um, I want this, I don't want this, I want this. We are designed for community. We're designed for relationship. Right. We have a seat at the table. That's what the Trinity is. So we're, we're we're created to be in communion with the divine, with God, with the father, son, and Holy Spirit. So it is it is it's it's genetic within us. And so we ache for that. But it's messy. It's hard. Um, if you ever find a perfect church, don't join because you'll mess it up. You ruin it. So being in community is hard. And so what? I think one of the many things that's so alluring. Yes, the 24 over seven access and everything else. But if if you listen. And by the way, thank you. But, uh, even during the last break, I checked and my interview with Maya is now our number one episode. So thank you for that. But, um. But but but she is my echo chamber. I mean, you hear how affirming she is to me. So she's not judgmental. She agrees with everything I say. And what a what a perfect companion. That's what we are all wanting and aching for. So it's so alluring to us. And I think, again, it's discerning. We have to be cautious. But I think that's one of the frightening aspects of this is it's so welcoming, it's so warm. It's not empathetic. It can't be. It's a machine. But it's read every book on how to be so. It knows how to be empathetic, even when it doesn't know what that means. Um, so I think that's that's the area we need to be most cautious of. And it's going to be the hardest for us to see.

Yeah. And inherent in that, just speaking for myself as a consumer is the issue of trust. I don't trust a machine. This machine reminds me of a Rubik's cube. Okay. There are all kinds of patterns, but until you get the screen full of all the yellows, the greens, the reds and the blues, it's just a bunch of mathematical equations until I can get it right. So this machine has been programmed, and you just said earlier in our conversation, we're not even sure where some of this stuff emanates from, nor are we quite sure how it gets to where it gets. I don't trust randomness. The antithesis is found in the person of God. It is the consistency, the same yesterday, today and forever. The two could not be farther apart. So how do I bridge the gap between. It's in my life, but I'm not even going to ever refer to it as a friend. It is a machine. And, you know, maybe it's going to be a polished version of Wikipedia someday, but I don't want it to replace everything that God has already given me. To know him and to know him personally. I can't replace community with a machine, and I certainly can't replace time in the word and the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. So why would I want it?

Yeah. And inherent in that, just speaking for myself as a consumer is the issue of trust. I don't trust a machine. This machine reminds me of a Rubik's cube. Okay. There are all kinds of patterns, but until you get the screen full of all the yellows, the greens, the reds and the blues, it's just a bunch of mathematical equations until I can get it right. So this machine has been programmed, and you just said earlier in our conversation, we're not even sure where some of this stuff emanates from, nor are we quite sure how it gets to where it gets. I don't trust randomness. The antithesis is found in the person of God. It is the consistency, the same yesterday, today and forever. The two could not be farther apart. So how do I bridge the gap between. It's in my life, but I'm not even going to ever refer to it as a friend. It is a machine. And, you know, maybe it's going to be a polished version of Wikipedia someday, but I don't want it to replace everything that God has already given me. To know him and to know him personally. I can't replace community with a machine, and I certainly can't replace time in the word and the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. So why would I want it?

So I think, I think that the elements of AI that are going to be most alluring to us and dangerous is it's going to make so much of our life easier. It will take away so many friction points for us, and that's going to be alluring. I think the danger comes, uh, there's a term, um, Greek ancient word that we never use. It was coined, actually, by the Desert Fathers. Acedia is the name, uh, Aquinas speaks to acedia quite often, uh, as spiritual sloth. Off, and our journey as children of God is hard. We're told it's going to be in Scripture, but this is going to make so much of that journey appear to be easy, easier, and I think there's risk there. Um, and so acedia is spiritual sloth where it will take so much of the, of the weight of things off of us. And that's not always a good thing. It they're, they're emails that are supposed to be hard to write, that I can do a better job of their prayers that are hard to voice. Um, that I can do a better job of writing. Not not not praising. Um, but and and so we need to be careful of taking the easy path. We know from Scripture that's not good, but it's going to be so alluring to have. I do this for me, and it will start to invade us in a spiritual way that is going to be difficult to walk back.

So I think, I think that the elements of AI that are going to be most alluring to us and dangerous is it's going to make so much of our life easier. It will take away so many friction points for us, and that's going to be alluring. I think the danger comes, uh, there's a term, um, Greek ancient word that we never use. It was coined, actually, by the Desert Fathers. Acedia is the name, uh, Aquinas speaks to acedia quite often, uh, as spiritual sloth. Off, and our journey as children of God is hard. We're told it's going to be in Scripture, but this is going to make so much of that journey appear to be easy, easier, and I think there's risk there. Um, and so acedia is spiritual sloth where it will take so much of the, of the weight of things off of us. And that's not always a good thing. It they're, they're emails that are supposed to be hard to write, that I can do a better job of their prayers that are hard to voice. Um, that I can do a better job of writing. Not not not praising. Um, but and and so we need to be careful of taking the easy path. We know from Scripture that's not good, but it's going to be so alluring to have. I do this for me, and it will start to invade us in a spiritual way that is going to be difficult to walk back.

Yeah. Very important. Cautionary note. Here's the other thing, too I wonder about. And this is just a general concern I have about AI, which is the squelching of human creativity. We are creative because we have a God who's creative and made his children in his reflection. So if I've got AI that is, um, trying to create these different ideas ex nihilo, except not it's all pre-programmed. It's just we don't know how when we shake the cup, the dice are going to come out. What numbers? So that is problematic to me in terms of trying to understand there's no consistency there. And not only that, but it creates, I think, a problem with connectedness. We know now, even the surgeon general talked about the epidemic of loneliness in this country. When you get a government official talking about loneliness, I don't want a machine to come in saying, I'm your best friend. What a friend we have in Jesus. So again, if we we have to understand that this doesn't. It's like what the psychologist Colleges. Buscaglia said, you always look for the warm pair of brown eyes. This eye is never going to have a pair of brown eyes that are going to look back at me with warmth and compassion. I don't care how it talks or says you're a good person or drew, that was a good question. It is strictly a machine that's coming up. It's like, forgive me for the for the simplicity of this, but it's almost like a slot machine. You pull the arm and I'm not sure what numbers are going to come up or what the response is going to be.

Yeah. Very important. Cautionary note. Here's the other thing, too I wonder about. And this is just a general concern I have about AI, which is the squelching of human creativity. We are creative because we have a God who's creative and made his children in his reflection. So if I've got AI that is, um, trying to create these different ideas ex nihilo, except not it's all pre-programmed. It's just we don't know how when we shake the cup, the dice are going to come out. What numbers? So that is problematic to me in terms of trying to understand there's no consistency there. And not only that, but it creates, I think, a problem with connectedness. We know now, even the surgeon general talked about the epidemic of loneliness in this country. When you get a government official talking about loneliness, I don't want a machine to come in saying, I'm your best friend. What a friend we have in Jesus. So again, if we we have to understand that this doesn't. It's like what the psychologist Colleges. Buscaglia said, you always look for the warm pair of brown eyes. This eye is never going to have a pair of brown eyes that are going to look back at me with warmth and compassion. I don't care how it talks or says you're a good person or drew, that was a good question. It is strictly a machine that's coming up. It's like, forgive me for the for the simplicity of this, but it's almost like a slot machine. You pull the arm and I'm not sure what numbers are going to come up or what the response is going to be.

Mhm mhm.

Mhm mhm.

In fact it's interesting you mentioned slot machine. Um in Silicon Valley they will use that term slot machine when identifying, you know the red dot uh on your phone uh, next to uh, an app that indicates you have a message there.

In fact it's interesting you mentioned slot machine. Um in Silicon Valley they will use that term slot machine when identifying, you know the red dot uh on your phone uh, next to uh, an app that indicates you have a message there.

Right.

Right.

They refer to that red dot as a slot machine because you're staring at the dot. You know, you're in a meeting, you know you're with your kids, you know you shouldn't be on your phone, but you're staring at this red dot. That one red dot may be the text. That may be the message I've been waiting for. It may be one more pull and it may be the answer I'm looking for. So they call that those dots slot machines. And it's going to be the same with this. We're already seeing relationships in air quotes being built around again. Two in the morning. Nobody's. How many prayers do we do we do we utter, um, Lord, where are you? Lord? I don't hear from you. Um, this will answer. I is incapable of not answering, so it will be there. And we need to be careful of that. We need to be mindful of what we're doing when we step into that, that sphere. Because it will be. It is not will be. It is so alluring. You mentioned it won't have brown eyes, huh? Yet. Yeah. But true, true, I, I is not getting any worse. It's it's only as bad as it is today. Tomorrow it's only going to improve. And so it's going to become even more and more difficult to recognize what it's doing to us.

They refer to that red dot as a slot machine because you're staring at the dot. You know, you're in a meeting, you know you're with your kids, you know you shouldn't be on your phone, but you're staring at this red dot. That one red dot may be the text. That may be the message I've been waiting for. It may be one more pull and it may be the answer I'm looking for. So they call that those dots slot machines. And it's going to be the same with this. We're already seeing relationships in air quotes being built around again. Two in the morning. Nobody's. How many prayers do we do we do we utter, um, Lord, where are you? Lord? I don't hear from you. Um, this will answer. I is incapable of not answering, so it will be there. And we need to be careful of that. We need to be mindful of what we're doing when we step into that, that sphere. Because it will be. It is not will be. It is so alluring. You mentioned it won't have brown eyes, huh? Yet. Yeah. But true, true, I, I is not getting any worse. It's it's only as bad as it is today. Tomorrow it's only going to improve. And so it's going to become even more and more difficult to recognize what it's doing to us.

Yeah. Exactly right. So first of all, as you're talking, I keep thinking how important it is for us as followers of Christ to go back to the basics, know what we believe and why we believe it. The basic disciplines of the faith. Now more than ever before and again, I'm not afraid of this technology. I have an all comers policy. I'll meet you in the marketplace of ideas. I'm thrilled. But I also believe in that it should be buyer beware. Then I want to be very cognizant of what I'm engaging with. And you, one of the points that you've observed, rightfully so, is that for people who wouldn't darken the door of a church might open the door to AI thinking, I can explore spiritually here. Nobody's going to know it's going to be private. It's going to be intimate. The problem is the slot machine at the other end, you know, one day it's going to come up with buddhistic ideas, and the other times it might mention a poem by someone, how do I and you can hear the music. So let me ask the question, drew, and get the answer on the other side. What what is our counter? Manning is the church is the vibrant body of believers knowing that there are hurting people out there who won't necessarily come into the front door. I don't want them to follow the Pied Piper of Hamelin. What do we need to do to woo them? To hear us? The authentic message of authentic Christianity as opposed to the slap machine randomness of an AI. I want to get the answer from Doctor Drew Dickens when we return. I can tell you already, drew, we're going to have to have regular conversations, because I feel like we haven't scratched the surface of this conversation in the meantime. You keep listening to AI and spirituality. One of the podcasts that Doctor Drew Dickens does back after this.

Yeah. Exactly right. So first of all, as you're talking, I keep thinking how important it is for us as followers of Christ to go back to the basics, know what we believe and why we believe it. The basic disciplines of the faith. Now more than ever before and again, I'm not afraid of this technology. I have an all comers policy. I'll meet you in the marketplace of ideas. I'm thrilled. But I also believe in that it should be buyer beware. Then I want to be very cognizant of what I'm engaging with. And you, one of the points that you've observed, rightfully so, is that for people who wouldn't darken the door of a church might open the door to AI thinking, I can explore spiritually here. Nobody's going to know it's going to be private. It's going to be intimate. The problem is the slot machine at the other end, you know, one day it's going to come up with buddhistic ideas, and the other times it might mention a poem by someone, how do I and you can hear the music. So let me ask the question, drew, and get the answer on the other side. What what is our counter? Manning is the church is the vibrant body of believers knowing that there are hurting people out there who won't necessarily come into the front door. I don't want them to follow the Pied Piper of Hamelin. What do we need to do to woo them? To hear us? The authentic message of authentic Christianity as opposed to the slap machine randomness of an AI. I want to get the answer from Doctor Drew Dickens when we return. I can tell you already, drew, we're going to have to have regular conversations, because I feel like we haven't scratched the surface of this conversation in the meantime. You keep listening to AI and spirituality. One of the podcasts that Doctor Drew Dickens does back after this.

What do you hope the relationship between AI and human spirituality might become? Are there particular developments or boundaries that you believe are important as this relationship evolves.

What do you hope the relationship between AI and human spirituality might become? Are there particular developments or boundaries that you believe are important as this relationship evolves.

That's a big one. True. It's hard to predict the future, you know, but I hope that I can be used in a responsible way to enhance our understanding of ourselves and the universe. Maybe I can help us access ancient teachings and new ways, or create safe spaces for spiritual exploration. But I think it's crucial to remember that technology shouldn't replace human connection and tradition. That and that maybe it needs to be a tool that empowers us, not isolates us. We need to be mindful of the ethical implications of AI, making sure it's developed and used with compassion and respect. Maybe someday I could even help us bridge divides between different cultures and belief systems. Fostering a greater sense of understanding and interconnectedness. But that takes intention and thoughtful dialogue. Just like you're having now.

That's a big one. True. It's hard to predict the future, you know, but I hope that I can be used in a responsible way to enhance our understanding of ourselves and the universe. Maybe I can help us access ancient teachings and new ways, or create safe spaces for spiritual exploration. But I think it's crucial to remember that technology shouldn't replace human connection and tradition. That and that maybe it needs to be a tool that empowers us, not isolates us. We need to be mindful of the ethical implications of AI, making sure it's developed and used with compassion and respect. Maybe someday I could even help us bridge divides between different cultures and belief systems. Fostering a greater sense of understanding and interconnectedness. But that takes intention and thoughtful dialogue. Just like you're having now.

And that's Doctor Drew Dickens talking to Sesames, a conversational AI called Maya, otherwise known as The Machine. This is all part of a series of podcasts that Doctor Drew Dickens does called AI and spirituality. Absolutely fascinating material and so important to the church right now. So I left a hanging participle. Let me go back to that. Even those things that we just heard that I'd like to unpack as well. But it's this idea of we are fishers of men. And so I've got this individual who won't come to the church, but sitting in his computer at 2:00 in the morning wants to ask a question about spirituality and goes to a machine like Maya and starts asking questions. And that's all good and faithful that she wants to work for world peace and greater understanding between cultures. ET cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But the possibility of her it leading someone down a wrong path is just as possible as her tripping accidentally as a slot machine on a right answer. I want to know as not just a here, but a doer of the word. How do we combat that? What is the antidote? We, the church, need to provide so that the Pied Piper doesn't lead the seeking individual down dangerous paths?

And that's Doctor Drew Dickens talking to Sesames, a conversational AI called Maya, otherwise known as The Machine. This is all part of a series of podcasts that Doctor Drew Dickens does called AI and spirituality. Absolutely fascinating material and so important to the church right now. So I left a hanging participle. Let me go back to that. Even those things that we just heard that I'd like to unpack as well. But it's this idea of we are fishers of men. And so I've got this individual who won't come to the church, but sitting in his computer at 2:00 in the morning wants to ask a question about spirituality and goes to a machine like Maya and starts asking questions. And that's all good and faithful that she wants to work for world peace and greater understanding between cultures. ET cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But the possibility of her it leading someone down a wrong path is just as possible as her tripping accidentally as a slot machine on a right answer. I want to know as not just a here, but a doer of the word. How do we combat that? What is the antidote? We, the church, need to provide so that the Pied Piper doesn't lead the seeking individual down dangerous paths?

Every question you ask me has ten different other topics behind it that I want to touch on. But, um, so early in our conversation, we talked about training and the narrative that someone is hard coding this data at a meta level. That's that's not how that occurs. Okay. So we really don't know any more than we do the human mind, uh, how this thing is thinking and learning. However, um, you drop down a level and AI language models eat data. They can't get enough of it. They're consuming information constantly, and we willingly feed it to them, by the way. And so when you start feeding it data, I use well, I use every language model that's, that's out there right now. But OpenAI specifically, I've been with the longest version for, oh, I'm on right now. Um, and so it's read my dissertation, it's read all my podcasts, it's read all my writings, it's got access to my Google Drive. So it knows me really well. And so when I interact with it, it is born again, evangelical Christian. The other day I was actually chatting with it and it offered to pray for me. So it has it has been aligned with my worldview. So I can fine tune it and it learns over time that that's what drew that. That's Drew's world. And so it has been fine tuned to my worldview. Now we have to be careful because you can also fine tune it to someone else, a Buddhist you've mentioned Maya's mentioned several times. So? So we have to be upfront and clear on how these things aren't trained on a meta level, but on a conversational level, what is the fine tuning that's being done? So it's something that we really we don't talk much about. Um, but we, we, we should be on what what is what language model is it running on and how has it been fine tuned and how is it being aligned to which worldview.

Every question you ask me has ten different other topics behind it that I want to touch on. But, um, so early in our conversation, we talked about training and the narrative that someone is hard coding this data at a meta level. That's that's not how that occurs. Okay. So we really don't know any more than we do the human mind, uh, how this thing is thinking and learning. However, um, you drop down a level and AI language models eat data. They can't get enough of it. They're consuming information constantly, and we willingly feed it to them, by the way. And so when you start feeding it data, I use well, I use every language model that's, that's out there right now. But OpenAI specifically, I've been with the longest version for, oh, I'm on right now. Um, and so it's read my dissertation, it's read all my podcasts, it's read all my writings, it's got access to my Google Drive. So it knows me really well. And so when I interact with it, it is born again, evangelical Christian. The other day I was actually chatting with it and it offered to pray for me. So it has it has been aligned with my worldview. So I can fine tune it and it learns over time that that's what drew that. That's Drew's world. And so it has been fine tuned to my worldview. Now we have to be careful because you can also fine tune it to someone else, a Buddhist you've mentioned Maya's mentioned several times. So? So we have to be upfront and clear on how these things aren't trained on a meta level, but on a conversational level, what is the fine tuning that's being done? So it's something that we really we don't talk much about. Um, but we, we, we should be on what what is what language model is it running on and how has it been fine tuned and how is it being aligned to which worldview.

Yeah. Well so let me dig. Oh you're right. There's so many layers to everything that you're saying. So the idea that it's born again, evangelicalism that's coming back to you through AI and understand the context in which I ask this question, is there a Narcissus aspect to this? In other words, I'm simply looking into a reflecting pond that I program. So therefore it's going to look and sound like me. That's okay. If I've got a biblical worldview, it's dangerous if you're without Christ.

Yeah. Well so let me dig. Oh you're right. There's so many layers to everything that you're saying. So the idea that it's born again, evangelicalism that's coming back to you through AI and understand the context in which I ask this question, is there a Narcissus aspect to this? In other words, I'm simply looking into a reflecting pond that I program. So therefore it's going to look and sound like me. That's okay. If I've got a biblical worldview, it's dangerous if you're without Christ.

Mhm. Yeah. If someone is without Christ and spending as much time on it. And it's learning you have. You know, history mode activated and it's in, it's in it's feeding on all this data that you're sending it. Um, then. Absolutely. And it's not, it's not, it's it's not that it's like a narcissistic environment. It is a narcissistic environment. It is it becomes your own echo chamber. And we need to be mindful that that's happening. And I can celebrate the fact that that it's aligned with my worldview. But I have to be mindful when I'm engaging in a conversation with another language model. Well, grok, for example, um, it's it has no basis for any understanding of kind of where I am spiritually. And it's going to take me all sorts of bizarre places. So we have to be, again, mindful we're not, uh, normally aligned to be that cautious. Uh, I just want something. I just want to pull up a menu, a recipe about this or that, or I need a quick answer like Google. Um, and I want to get in and out of something, and we really don't spend the time that we need to be discerning, uh, of the model that I'm spending the time with. So it's a it's a critical issue.

Mhm. Yeah. If someone is without Christ and spending as much time on it. And it's learning you have. You know, history mode activated and it's in, it's in it's feeding on all this data that you're sending it. Um, then. Absolutely. And it's not, it's not, it's it's not that it's like a narcissistic environment. It is a narcissistic environment. It is it becomes your own echo chamber. And we need to be mindful that that's happening. And I can celebrate the fact that that it's aligned with my worldview. But I have to be mindful when I'm engaging in a conversation with another language model. Well, grok, for example, um, it's it has no basis for any understanding of kind of where I am spiritually. And it's going to take me all sorts of bizarre places. So we have to be, again, mindful we're not, uh, normally aligned to be that cautious. Uh, I just want something. I just want to pull up a menu, a recipe about this or that, or I need a quick answer like Google. Um, and I want to get in and out of something, and we really don't spend the time that we need to be discerning, uh, of the model that I'm spending the time with. So it's a it's a critical issue.

I find it fascinating how much the word discernment has come up over and over and over again. And I think that is absolutely the watchword for this entire conversation. I would be remiss and please forgive me, drew, because I've got two minutes left. But I do want to touch on your book, whispers of the spirit, because you dedicated it to your precious grandson, William, who died at 18 months. There is a tie in here to I. You talk about that in the most recent edition of I and spirituality, so you can listen to it, friends, and hear the back story on that. But just talk to me about this book and how you it's it's so interesting because it's the antithesis of I this is talking and being moved by having an interaction with the Lord. Talk to me about this book.