Hey, everyone, This is part two of our Newsweek Marriage episode. If you haven't listened to part one yet, I recommend starting there. Susie, I feel like we need to pause for a moment and spend a little time talking about us, because I couldn't help but wonder are we desperate single women?

Hey, everyone, This is part two of our Newsweek Marriage episode. If you haven't listened to part one yet, I recommend starting there. Susie, I feel like we need to pause for a moment and spend a little time talking about us, because I couldn't help but wonder are we desperate single women?

Good Carrie Bradshaw reference.

Good Carrie Bradshaw reference.

That's us and part one, where we unraveled the lasting panic over a nineteen eighty six Newsweek cover story that claimed a woman over forty was more likely to be killed by a terrorist than to get married.

That's us and part one, where we unraveled the lasting panic over a nineteen eighty six Newsweek cover story that claimed a woman over forty was more likely to be killed by a terrorist than to get married.

But guess what we kind of are those women?

But guess what we kind of are those women?

So we thought we'd spend a bit more time talking about us, our views on marriage, some of its history, and how the way we define modern day partnership has changed. I'm Jessica Bennett and I'm Susie Banacarum. This is in Retrospect, where each week we revisit a cultural moment from the past that shaped us.

So we thought we'd spend a bit more time talking about us, our views on marriage, some of its history, and how the way we define modern day partnership has changed. I'm Jessica Bennett and I'm Susie Banacarum. This is in Retrospect, where each week we revisit a cultural moment from the past that shaped us.

And that we just can't stop thinking about today.

And that we just can't stop thinking about today.

We're talking about that sensational nineteen eighties cover story from Newsweek, but we're also talking about the enduring myth it tapped into, that of the desperate single woman.

We're talking about that sensational nineteen eighties cover story from Newsweek, but we're also talking about the enduring myth it tapped into, that of the desperate single woman.

This is part two. Okay, So here we are, Susie.

This is part two. Okay, So here we are, Susie.

I'm now married at forty you, of course are partner but not married.

I'm now married at forty you, of course are partner but not married.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's so funny because I never really know how to describe Mike. Who is you know, I guess my boyfriend, but feels like a little silly at my age to be like, this is my boyfriend. But when I say partnered, I feel like people are also very confused by that because that's not really a I don't know, it's not very common vernacular.

It's so funny because I never really know how to describe Mike. Who is you know, I guess my boyfriend, but feels like a little silly at my age to be like, this is my boyfriend. But when I say partnered, I feel like people are also very confused by that because that's not really a I don't know, it's not very common vernacular.

So I guess I'll just refer to him as my lover from now.

So I guess I'll just refer to him as my lover from now.

Oh my god. Yeah, there's not a great word. Husband is also a disgusting word that I refuse to use. I say spouse, oh okay, or I sometimes say partner, which is what I said before.

Oh my god. Yeah, there's not a great word. Husband is also a disgusting word that I refuse to use. I say spouse, oh okay, or I sometimes say partner, which is what I said before.

I definitely say I have a partner, but I don't know, but partnered feels weird, like I'm partnered, you know?

I definitely say I have a partner, but I don't know, but partnered feels weird, like I'm partnered, you know?

Oh right, I'm partnered anyhow? Yes, But do you feel pressure to marry me?

Oh right, I'm partnered anyhow? Yes, But do you feel pressure to marry me?

No?

No?

No, I mean I think there are a couple of things is that for me? First of all, I don't like weddings, which people find very weird. But I was in so many weddings and I remember saying that once to someone and they were like, that's such a humble brag.

No, I mean I think there are a couple of things is that for me? First of all, I don't like weddings, which people find very weird. But I was in so many weddings and I remember saying that once to someone and they were like, that's such a humble brag.

I'm like, it's not a humble brag, Like I spent all my money.

I'm like, it's not a humble brag, Like I spent all my money.

In my being Like no one wants to Yeah, no one wants a wedding.

In my being Like no one wants to Yeah, no one wants a wedding.

All the dresses are tons of thousands of Its.

All the dresses are tons of thousands of Its.

Kind of like a forced fun event, Like you're like, here, we are spending thousands of dollars on this weekend with people I generally don't know. So I'm not that into weddings to start with. I never dreamed of some big wedding. But also, you know, I'm not planning on having kids. So for me, I really struggle to figure out what the difference is between us living together and getting married.

Kind of like a forced fun event, Like you're like, here, we are spending thousands of dollars on this weekend with people I generally don't know. So I'm not that into weddings to start with. I never dreamed of some big wedding. But also, you know, I'm not planning on having kids. So for me, I really struggle to figure out what the difference is between us living together and getting married.

Like, I guess tax.

Like, I guess tax.

Breaks is what everyone says to me, But that just feels like a weird reason to do something that we don't feel super compelled either of us to do.

Breaks is what everyone says to me, But that just feels like a weird reason to do something that we don't feel super compelled either of us to do.

Did you feel pressured to get married? No?

Did you feel pressured to get married? No?

And in fact, for a long time I was really anti marriage. I mean, honestly, I still am. I just happened to have done it at some point. I mean, I really don't think that I or we felt this pressure and to some degree, I would argue it was the opposite, Like in our worlds, being partnered too early was really looked down upon, and it was like, well, don't you want to establish your career first, Like don't you want to be an independent first? Like don't you want to think for yourself? Like why would you want to attach yourself to someone else? So quote unquote young, which like in New York Sanders it was like for exactly yeah. But so I was engaged for like forty five minutes in my late twenties.

And in fact, for a long time I was really anti marriage. I mean, honestly, I still am. I just happened to have done it at some point. I mean, I really don't think that I or we felt this pressure and to some degree, I would argue it was the opposite, Like in our worlds, being partnered too early was really looked down upon, and it was like, well, don't you want to establish your career first, Like don't you want to be an independent first? Like don't you want to think for yourself? Like why would you want to attach yourself to someone else? So quote unquote young, which like in New York Sanders it was like for exactly yeah. But so I was engaged for like forty five minutes in my late twenties.

I don't think I knew that.

I don't think I knew that.

Yes, I mean basically I ended up breaking it off after the forty five minutes because I had a total panic attack and my ring finger swelled up so that I couldn't get to the ring.

Yes, I mean basically I ended up breaking it off after the forty five minutes because I had a total panic attack and my ring finger swelled up so that I couldn't get to the ring.

Off of it to give it back.

Off of it to give it back.

Seriously, Yes, So I wrote a modern love column about how do I.

Seriously, Yes, So I wrote a modern love column about how do I.

Not know about any of this? Now I'm gonna have to go find your modern.

Not know about any of this? Now I'm gonna have to go find your modern.

Love call you can go, you can google it.

Love call you can go, you can google it.

When I started dating my current spouse, I was like, just so you know, like I wrote this Modern love, you might want to google, like everything you need to know is there, so like, just you know, spare me having to explain it.

When I started dating my current spouse, I was like, just so you know, like I wrote this Modern love, you might want to google, like everything you need to know is there, so like, just you know, spare me having to explain it.

See that's why Sam was great. It was like, this does not scare me.

See that's why Sam was great. It was like, this does not scare me.

Yeah, I've had a long time to unpack that, and like why I panicked and why my finger swelled up because it honestly, like it wasn't that I didn't love him, it was that suddenly flashing before my eyes were these images of like being a domestic and being like chained to the kitchen, and like, I don't know, somehow this like antiquated notion of being a wife and giving up this career that I had like barely just gotten my footing in, none of which were things that he would have expected nor I would have done. But there is so much baggage when it comes to that for.

Yeah, I've had a long time to unpack that, and like why I panicked and why my finger swelled up because it honestly, like it wasn't that I didn't love him, it was that suddenly flashing before my eyes were these images of like being a domestic and being like chained to the kitchen, and like, I don't know, somehow this like antiquated notion of being a wife and giving up this career that I had like barely just gotten my footing in, none of which were things that he would have expected nor I would have done. But there is so much baggage when it comes to that for.

Women, Yes, especially hetero marriage exactly.

Women, Yes, especially hetero marriage exactly.

And that's the thing, like we all know, no matter how progressive you are, no matter how much eff you put into it, like heterosexual marriage is not good for women, especially if you have children.

And that's the thing, like we all know, no matter how progressive you are, no matter how much eff you put into it, like heterosexual marriage is not good for women, especially if you have children.

I mean, it's when salaries dip, it's when women start pulling the backbreaking double shift of working inside and outside the home, and then eventually they care for their parents. Like we just expect so much of women, and marriage feels like a part of that. I mean, it's interesting because I remember in my twenties I had a guy friend say to me, like, you think of being married as taking something away, but it's like it's adding something.

I mean, it's when salaries dip, it's when women start pulling the backbreaking double shift of working inside and outside the home, and then eventually they care for their parents. Like we just expect so much of women, and marriage feels like a part of that. I mean, it's interesting because I remember in my twenties I had a guy friend say to me, like, you think of being married as taking something away, but it's like it's adding something.

And I was like, yeah, for you, but is that true for me.

And I was like, yeah, for you, but is that true for me.

I don't know, like it will take away for from some of the things I want to do in my twenties in my thirties, so not only did I not get married, I also didn't find a really serious partner until I was in my forties because I think I just always saw it as a distraction. And it wasn't because I was this like hard bitten career woman. It was because I just didn't prioritize that. Like I remember sort of one day waking up and looking around and being like, oh, everybody got married, and I just didn't. That didn't occur to me as a necessity in my life, which I do think makes us fairly unusual. I mean, you were kind of an anti marriage cell it it sounds like.

I don't know, like it will take away for from some of the things I want to do in my twenties in my thirties, so not only did I not get married, I also didn't find a really serious partner until I was in my forties because I think I just always saw it as a distraction. And it wasn't because I was this like hard bitten career woman. It was because I just didn't prioritize that. Like I remember sort of one day waking up and looking around and being like, oh, everybody got married, and I just didn't. That didn't occur to me as a necessity in my life, which I do think makes us fairly unusual. I mean, you were kind of an anti marriage cell it it sounds like.

Yeah, I mean, so after that happened, it was like I really really dug my heels in. And this was also right around the time that you know, the Defense of Marriage Act was being challenged and I was covering gay marriage for Newsweek, and I really felt like I didn't want to take this right that I didn't even really want when so many others couldn't happen, And so I ended up. So this goes back to my news Week days, but I ended up with a friend and colleague writing this cover story for Newsweek called I don't the case against marriage. Now you can imagine that my recently broken off engagement.

Yeah, I mean, so after that happened, it was like I really really dug my heels in. And this was also right around the time that you know, the Defense of Marriage Act was being challenged and I was covering gay marriage for Newsweek, and I really felt like I didn't want to take this right that I didn't even really want when so many others couldn't happen, And so I ended up. So this goes back to my news Week days, but I ended up with a friend and colleague writing this cover story for Newsweek called I don't the case against marriage. Now you can imagine that my recently broken off engagement.

But still I.

But still I.

Did not love this at the time, but that level right, But that article basically made the case that, like, aside from yes, maybe tax benefits and of course some things that come with parenting or end of life decisions, like arguably with enough money and lawyers and privilege, you could figure those things out without a marriage certificate. And so what for women was the actual reason to want to get married? Like there are all of these things working against you. And if you really start digging into the history of marriage, which I did, and I'm obsessed with Stephanie Kootz. She's a professor, she's like the preeminent historian of marriage. She's written all these books on it. Through a feminist lens, you start to realize just how how sexist an institution. It is like marriage literally began as an economic contract because women didn't have rights or.

Did not love this at the time, but that level right, But that article basically made the case that, like, aside from yes, maybe tax benefits and of course some things that come with parenting or end of life decisions, like arguably with enough money and lawyers and privilege, you could figure those things out without a marriage certificate. And so what for women was the actual reason to want to get married? Like there are all of these things working against you. And if you really start digging into the history of marriage, which I did, and I'm obsessed with Stephanie Kootz. She's a professor, she's like the preeminent historian of marriage. She's written all these books on it. Through a feminist lens, you start to realize just how how sexist an institution. It is like marriage literally began as an economic contract because women didn't have rights or.

Right well, I mean in a lot of ways.

Right well, I mean in a lot of ways.

It was also the only way to secure your financial future, right you literally had to have a husband to have your own credit card until like what the seventies.

It was also the only way to secure your financial future, right you literally had to have a husband to have your own credit card until like what the seventies.

Nineteen seventy three. Yes, it's so really, marriage was how women, Yes, they had financial security. It was like how they got the fathers of their children to stick around. In some cases, it was how they gain access to all sorts of legal rights, including yes, getting something as simple as getting a credit card.

Nineteen seventy three. Yes, it's so really, marriage was how women, Yes, they had financial security. It was like how they got the fathers of their children to stick around. In some cases, it was how they gain access to all sorts of legal rights, including yes, getting something as simple as getting a credit card.

And you know, so there was.

And you know, so there was.

That side of it, but culturally too, like for a long time, and I think this still persists in some circles today. The worst thing a woman could be was a spinster. Yeah, like that was the term for an unmarried woman that has been used against single women since the dawn of time. And I think back to the Newsweek article, not my but the one about the terrorism and marriage line was part of the fear that that was tapping into.

That side of it, but culturally too, like for a long time, and I think this still persists in some circles today. The worst thing a woman could be was a spinster. Yeah, like that was the term for an unmarried woman that has been used against single women since the dawn of time. And I think back to the Newsweek article, not my but the one about the terrorism and marriage line was part of the fear that that was tapping into.

Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like the concept of being a spinster, at least for me, sort of evokes like an old timey kind of like ant you know. So what's interesting is they took this thing that was already considered like not great, but they made it like more sad and pathetic. It was like suddenly it was like a woman with a lot of cats, like knitting in her room by herself, which, like, you know, if you think of someone like Emily Dickinson, she was, I guess technically a spinster, but she's not described as this like sad, lonely, pathetic person.

Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like the concept of being a spinster, at least for me, sort of evokes like an old timey kind of like ant you know. So what's interesting is they took this thing that was already considered like not great, but they made it like more sad and pathetic. It was like suddenly it was like a woman with a lot of cats, like knitting in her room by herself, which, like, you know, if you think of someone like Emily Dickinson, she was, I guess technically a spinster, but she's not described as this like sad, lonely, pathetic person.

I mean, she was like one of the greatest poets of our time.

I mean, she was like one of the greatest poets of our time.

Well, and I think a lot of the great women in history were in fact spinster because they couldn't be married, because they had to focus on their art or their career or fighting for the right to vote, and like they couldn't have a husband getting in the way of that, which literally would get in the way in that time. And Okay, I don't want to I get us too off track here, but I like just need to for the record, give a little history lesson on spinsters. So, okay, spinster a word that actually comes from women who spun wool in the Middle Ages, which was one of the only jobs, or one of a few jobs, and a low paying job that was available for unmarried women. So like that's where the un spinning I'm not valued or so exactly. And so because of that, the term came to be shorthand and then ultimately a real legal term for an unmarried woman, which eventually morphed into a pejorative. And so if you look back when women were fighting for the right to vote, and you look at all of the like suffrage posters and the anti suffrage posters, those who were arguing against suffrage, against the right to vote, would put out all this propaganda basically painting the suffragists as these old, ugly man hating, like unf suckable spinsters essentially, and so it was like, oh, you women, you don't want to be one of those spinsters, so like, stick with us, don't gain any right.

Well, and I think a lot of the great women in history were in fact spinster because they couldn't be married, because they had to focus on their art or their career or fighting for the right to vote, and like they couldn't have a husband getting in the way of that, which literally would get in the way in that time. And Okay, I don't want to I get us too off track here, but I like just need to for the record, give a little history lesson on spinsters. So, okay, spinster a word that actually comes from women who spun wool in the Middle Ages, which was one of the only jobs, or one of a few jobs, and a low paying job that was available for unmarried women. So like that's where the un spinning I'm not valued or so exactly. And so because of that, the term came to be shorthand and then ultimately a real legal term for an unmarried woman, which eventually morphed into a pejorative. And so if you look back when women were fighting for the right to vote, and you look at all of the like suffrage posters and the anti suffrage posters, those who were arguing against suffrage, against the right to vote, would put out all this propaganda basically painting the suffragists as these old, ugly man hating, like unf suckable spinsters essentially, and so it was like, oh, you women, you don't want to be one of those spinsters, so like, stick with us, don't gain any right.

I mean, it's interesting, right.

I mean, it's interesting, right.

Because it makes me think of all the sort of like pride and prejudice, like that whole genre, which is the reason you're ugly and unfuckable if you're a spinsters, because so much of your currency is literally how you physically look and whether or not you're going to be able to land amand based on that, because it's not like you get to know each other. In a lot of cases, you're basically like you meet a few times and then you get married. So there's just this like common idea that if you're at all attractive, you're not going to be sitting home by yourself, which is also just like an interesting and fascinating way to think about why women choose to be single.

Because it makes me think of all the sort of like pride and prejudice, like that whole genre, which is the reason you're ugly and unfuckable if you're a spinsters, because so much of your currency is literally how you physically look and whether or not you're going to be able to land amand based on that, because it's not like you get to know each other. In a lot of cases, you're basically like you meet a few times and then you get married. So there's just this like common idea that if you're at all attractive, you're not going to be sitting home by yourself, which is also just like an interesting and fascinating way to think about why women choose to be single.

Yes, and actually is to bring it back to that Newsweek article, I think that's what this is tapping into, Like this is really where you start to see this enduring, persistent tension between having a career and having a family and this idea that you have to choose, and all the way up until two thousand and nine or whatever year it was that I was briefly engaged to this person, Like still in my mind, that was the tension. I couldn't do both right, And things have changed somewhat though, right, Like yeah, I mean there's been huge change since the nineteen eighties. So in nineteen eighty six when the article came out, the average age of marriage was about twenty four years old in the United States. Now it's thirty, which still seems young to like those of us in urban areas like New York. I think something like seven percent of adults in the United States identify as queer.

Yes, and actually is to bring it back to that Newsweek article, I think that's what this is tapping into, Like this is really where you start to see this enduring, persistent tension between having a career and having a family and this idea that you have to choose, and all the way up until two thousand and nine or whatever year it was that I was briefly engaged to this person, Like still in my mind, that was the tension. I couldn't do both right, And things have changed somewhat though, right, Like yeah, I mean there's been huge change since the nineteen eighties. So in nineteen eighty six when the article came out, the average age of marriage was about twenty four years old in the United States. Now it's thirty, which still seems young to like those of us in urban areas like New York. I think something like seven percent of adults in the United States identify as queer.

That number is higher among gen Z.

That number is higher among gen Z.

And the average age of marriage four non hetero couples is older. It's thirty three for women, thirty eighty for men. So, like, you know, this is all happening. Things are shifting less people are getting married overall, and I think this is why you have books like I don't know, if you read Rebecca Traster's All the Single Ladies, it was about the political power of single women is huge because there are many.

And the average age of marriage four non hetero couples is older. It's thirty three for women, thirty eighty for men. So, like, you know, this is all happening. Things are shifting less people are getting married overall, and I think this is why you have books like I don't know, if you read Rebecca Traster's All the Single Ladies, it was about the political power of single women is huge because there are many.

Yeah, And I think also now there's like a slightly different version of being single, which is the auntie, like the fun aunt who's like has some money to spare and is like that that sort of thing about being an auntie, which is I am very much like as you know, committed aunt or or I don't know I say that word, but you know, I think that's become kind of like a fun alternative to this idea of the spinster, which we didn't really have before.

Yeah, And I think also now there's like a slightly different version of being single, which is the auntie, like the fun aunt who's like has some money to spare and is like that that sort of thing about being an auntie, which is I am very much like as you know, committed aunt or or I don't know I say that word, but you know, I think that's become kind of like a fun alternative to this idea of the spinster, which we didn't really have before.

That's like really emerged in the last ten years.

That's like really emerged in the last ten years.

That's so true, that is, that's an alternative to the spinster. But the amount of discussion and inks billed to the question of having it all is like absurd at this point, And I even remember, like, in subtle ways, I mean, Okay, how long ago is this. This might have been a decade ago, but I was reporting a story for Cosmo, specifically about women who hid their achievements in online dating because they worried that they wouldn't get dates. These were heterosid women, straight women, and they basically were like, I'm fun and flirty and like I like to go to the beach, I love travel, and like Coca Cola, rather than like, I'm an executive actually at a law for or whatever, which was their real title, because they just weren't getting as many matches. And then since then there's been all this data and research into it, and like, yes, that's true.

That's so true, that is, that's an alternative to the spinster. But the amount of discussion and inks billed to the question of having it all is like absurd at this point, And I even remember, like, in subtle ways, I mean, Okay, how long ago is this. This might have been a decade ago, but I was reporting a story for Cosmo, specifically about women who hid their achievements in online dating because they worried that they wouldn't get dates. These were heterosid women, straight women, and they basically were like, I'm fun and flirty and like I like to go to the beach, I love travel, and like Coca Cola, rather than like, I'm an executive actually at a law for or whatever, which was their real title, because they just weren't getting as many matches. And then since then there's been all this data and research into it, and like, yes, that's true.

They weren't crazy to be worried.

They weren't crazy to be worried.

What's funny is it reminds me that around that time there was a little bit of a moment where they were doing a lot of these stories about like what to do if you made more money, like how to deal with that when you were dating? And I remember reading in something it might have been furnished to Robbie's book when she makes more that there was a woman who would literally buy tickets to go to the movies but pretend she'd been given them for free at work so as not to like intimidate her boyfriend.

What's funny is it reminds me that around that time there was a little bit of a moment where they were doing a lot of these stories about like what to do if you made more money, like how to deal with that when you were dating? And I remember reading in something it might have been furnished to Robbie's book when she makes more that there was a woman who would literally buy tickets to go to the movies but pretend she'd been given them for free at work so as not to like intimidate her boyfriend.

Oh and I.

Oh and I.

Remember just being like that is the saddest, weirdest thing. And this also kind of reminds me of that Steve Harvey book that became an movie like Act like a Lady, Think Like a Man.

Remember just being like that is the saddest, weirdest thing. And this also kind of reminds me of that Steve Harvey book that became an movie like Act like a Lady, Think Like a Man.

The movie was called Think Like a Man.

The movie was called Think Like a Man.

I remember there's a character in that who is like a ceo, I think, and she's dating a chef, which is sort of ironic because I'm actually with a baker. And it's this whole thing where people are like, don't freak him out, let him be the man, like you know, and it's like, I don't know, I have to be honest, Like that's never been an issue in my relationship with Mike, Like he just doesn't care. It's not that he is like doesn't care about my career or doesn't support it, but he's not intimidated by it because he's just like happy for me.

I remember there's a character in that who is like a ceo, I think, and she's dating a chef, which is sort of ironic because I'm actually with a baker. And it's this whole thing where people are like, don't freak him out, let him be the man, like you know, and it's like, I don't know, I have to be honest, Like that's never been an issue in my relationship with Mike, Like he just doesn't care. It's not that he is like doesn't care about my career or doesn't support it, but he's not intimidated by it because he's just like happy for me.

And that's what your partners should be. It shouldn't be that.

And that's what your partners should be. It shouldn't be that.

You have to like hide your achievements so that like you can cater to some man's ego. That's not going to work long term anyway. Like that's not a relationship that's gonna work, right.

You have to like hide your achievements so that like you can cater to some man's ego. That's not going to work long term anyway. Like that's not a relationship that's gonna work, right.

I remember interviewing this friend of mine who is now married to someone entirely different, but she got this big promotion at work and she's making much more money than her male partner, and she said to me, I've started giving more blowjobs since I was more money as some sort of and like kedn't asked that, you know, but like some sort of internal thing that was like I don't know, I have to like make.

I remember interviewing this friend of mine who is now married to someone entirely different, but she got this big promotion at work and she's making much more money than her male partner, and she said to me, I've started giving more blowjobs since I was more money as some sort of and like kedn't asked that, you know, but like some sort of internal thing that was like I don't know, I have to like make.

Up for this.

Up for this.

Yeah, I owe him anyway. So, like, you know, this is tapping into real things. But I also think that even from ten years ago, the culture has really really shifted.

Yeah, I owe him anyway. So, like, you know, this is tapping into real things. But I also think that even from ten years ago, the culture has really really shifted.

Yeah, I mean I think to some degree, like when you look at something like Sex in the City, I feel like it's kind of a good example of something that started as one thing, which was very much a show about for women desperately trying to like land men and really like focused on their dating, and over time has kind of morphed into a series about you know, the value of female friendship and sort of its enduring presence in your life and how whether or not. Your relationships come and go, you always have each other. And that's definitely not what the series was initially intended to be. It was meant to sort of glamorize the sort of twenty something Manhattan single and that it was okay to want to have sex and to want it.

Yeah, I mean I think to some degree, like when you look at something like Sex in the City, I feel like it's kind of a good example of something that started as one thing, which was very much a show about for women desperately trying to like land men and really like focused on their dating, and over time has kind of morphed into a series about you know, the value of female friendship and sort of its enduring presence in your life and how whether or not. Your relationships come and go, you always have each other. And that's definitely not what the series was initially intended to be. It was meant to sort of glamorize the sort of twenty something Manhattan single and that it was okay to want to have sex and to want it.

To be good. Yeah.

To be good. Yeah.

I mean, I think you're right, like, to a large extent, Sex and the City was a show about friendship, and it did a lot for making singleedom sheet. But I do think about how even in that show at the end of the series they all end up partnered. Samantha then breaks up with that hot younger guy whose name I'm forgetting and has that amazing line I love you, but I love me more.

I mean, I think you're right, like, to a large extent, Sex and the City was a show about friendship, and it did a lot for making singleedom sheet. But I do think about how even in that show at the end of the series they all end up partnered. Samantha then breaks up with that hot younger guy whose name I'm forgetting and has that amazing line I love you, but I love me more.

So it's new that's in the movie.

So it's new that's in the movie.

So it's like, I think it's interesting also that the series kind of ends with them all partnered, and then right, the movies actually kind of unraveled.

So it's like, I think it's interesting also that the series kind of ends with them all partnered, and then right, the movies actually kind of unraveled.

A few years later. Yeah, so I mean maybe that does show something for.

A few years later. Yeah, so I mean maybe that does show something for.

The time, like a little bit of progress.

The time, like a little bit of progress.

And now, I mean, obviously now this Indian Nixon character, Miranda is queer, which is.

And now, I mean, obviously now this Indian Nixon character, Miranda is queer, which is.

I mean, finally, like obviously we knew.

I mean, finally, like obviously we knew.

That they like added women of color.

That they like added women of color.

You know, it's a whole new world in this new version, which is called and just like that, I think on HBO, which I'm saying like I didn't watch it, but like to be clear, I watched it and I will be watching the next season.

You know, it's a whole new world in this new version, which is called and just like that, I think on HBO, which I'm saying like I didn't watch it, but like to be clear, I watched it and I will be watching the next season.

So I guess the real.

So I guess the real.

Question, Jess is you who were so against marriage?

Question, Jess is you who were so against marriage?

How did you end up getting married in the end?

How did you end up getting married in the end?

Great question, Susie, and I won't answer that question. After the break We'll be right back, Okay. So going back to my modern love call not to be like hide my Modern Love Gone.

Great question, Susie, and I won't answer that question. After the break We'll be right back, Okay. So going back to my modern love call not to be like hide my Modern Love Gone.

No, I'm very excited to read it now.

No, I'm very excited to read it now.

But part of the whole thing was, so I broke off this engagement.

But part of the whole thing was, so I broke off this engagement.

We stayed together. I thought we were happy.

We stayed together. I thought we were happy.

Turned out he could never get over the broken engagement, and so when we finally did break up, he just dumped me. It was on New Year's say, oh god, anyway, I've worked through it in therapy, but after eight years it was just like I'm done, I'm out. We had just thrown away all of our suitcases because we lived in like a tiny studio apartment in these village, so we had no suitcases. So he was like, this is over, and then like couldn't pack up any of his.

Turned out he could never get over the broken engagement, and so when we finally did break up, he just dumped me. It was on New Year's say, oh god, anyway, I've worked through it in therapy, but after eight years it was just like I'm done, I'm out. We had just thrown away all of our suitcases because we lived in like a tiny studio apartment in these village, so we had no suitcases. So he was like, this is over, and then like couldn't pack up any of his.

I'm just figuring him with like garbage bags.

I'm just figuring him with like garbage bags.

Like yeah, I mean that's basically what happened.

Like yeah, I mean that's basically what happened.

But part of the modern love calm was like, at the time my friend Jesse Ellison and I were writing this anti marriage article, we remember her mom saying to us, well, one thing about marriage is it makes it harder for the person to leave.

But part of the modern love calm was like, at the time my friend Jesse Ellison and I were writing this anti marriage article, we remember her mom saying to us, well, one thing about marriage is it makes it harder for the person to leave.

And we were like, oh, that's so panthetic. Like we were like, you know, I can't believe it. Yeah, exactly.

And we were like, oh, that's so panthetic. Like we were like, you know, I can't believe it. Yeah, exactly.

And but then when this was happening to me, I was like, wow, so after eight years you can just overnight walk out, like you know, it's tempted couples therapy know anything. And I remember thinking to myself, like, I guess if we were married, we maybe would have had a conversation about it, maybe we would have separated.

And but then when this was happening to me, I was like, wow, so after eight years you can just overnight walk out, like you know, it's tempted couples therapy know anything. And I remember thinking to myself, like, I guess if we were married, we maybe would have had a conversation about it, maybe we would have separated.

I don't know.

I don't know.

So that's sort of.

So that's sort of.

Where this legal entanglement.

Where this legal entanglement.

So that's sort of where this modern love calm ends. So I don't know.

So that's sort of where this modern love calm ends. So I don't know.

At a certain point, I felt like I was established in my career, I had written a book like all of these things, and I felt much more comfortable in my independent self that I felt ready to get married to this person who is a very progressive human who wasn't going to buy into so much of the bullshit around weddings.

At a certain point, I felt like I was established in my career, I had written a book like all of these things, and I felt much more comfortable in my independent self that I felt ready to get married to this person who is a very progressive human who wasn't going to buy into so much of the bullshit around weddings.

You didn't really have like a super traditional wedding.

You didn't really have like a super traditional wedding.

I went to great less to plan like an epic party that had none of the trappings of utterly sexist wedding institutions, which, by the way, let me just name the father gives away his daughter like that was because he was literally giving owners right, so you couldn't do that. I have a great relationship with my dad. He did not walk me down the aisle. We walked ourselves down. It wasn't really an aisle. The bride's family typically pays for the wedding. That's sort of like a dowry.

I went to great less to plan like an epic party that had none of the trappings of utterly sexist wedding institutions, which, by the way, let me just name the father gives away his daughter like that was because he was literally giving owners right, so you couldn't do that. I have a great relationship with my dad. He did not walk me down the aisle. We walked ourselves down. It wasn't really an aisle. The bride's family typically pays for the wedding. That's sort of like a dowry.

A dowry.

A dowry.

No, we were established in our careers. We split the cost.

No, we were established in our careers. We split the cost.

We had one of my best friends, Amanda, officiate our wedding and she quoted glorious tone in it. But you typically declare someone man and wife, like man always comes first first of all, and then it's wife, so like the man is still a human, independent person and the woman is now just a wife, like is she in service?

We had one of my best friends, Amanda, officiate our wedding and she quoted glorious tone in it. But you typically declare someone man and wife, like man always comes first first of all, and then it's wife, so like the man is still a human, independent person and the woman is now just a wife, like is she in service?

There's that line about honoring and obeying and I always foune that weird, Like I'm not obeying it.

There's that line about honoring and obeying and I always foune that weird, Like I'm not obeying it.

It's so weird, and even like the wearing of white, like that's literally to represent purity.

It's so weird, and even like the wearing of white, like that's literally to represent purity.

Why do people see like I never do which like they.

Why do people see like I never do which like they.

Never know anymore. Let's just be honest, it's crazy.

Never know anymore. Let's just be honest, it's crazy.

And like obviously I didn't take my husband's last naye, so like I didn't do any of this.

And like obviously I didn't take my husband's last naye, so like I didn't do any of this.

Don you also go down the aisle to like a smashing Pumpkin song?

Don you also go down the aisle to like a smashing Pumpkin song?

Yes, we did.

Yes, we did.

We walked ourselves together down to a smashing Moment song.

We walked ourselves together down to a smashing Moment song.

It was it was a grunge wedding.

It was it was a grunge wedding.

We also instead of I don't know if this is cheesy at this point because now like everyone's California sober and doing like microdosing, but instead of choosing chicken or fish or whatever you do it normal weddings, we had.

We also instead of I don't know if this is cheesy at this point because now like everyone's California sober and doing like microdosing, but instead of choosing chicken or fish or whatever you do it normal weddings, we had.

People choose their drug of Oh I did it, and give backs.

People choose their drug of Oh I did it, and give backs.

What was the primary drug of choice?

What was the primary drug of choice?

Just out of curious microdosing mushrooms?

Just out of curious microdosing mushrooms?

Yeah, that makes sense to basically everyone did it like my parents.

Yeah, that makes sense to basically everyone did it like my parents.

Really I love that and also that would not be my family.

Really I love that and also that would not be my family.

It was a desert When it was a desert wedding, I was like oh, very happy. But as we were planning this, it was just so interesting and funny to like come across all of the little origin stories for these things that most.

It was a desert When it was a desert wedding, I was like oh, very happy. But as we were planning this, it was just so interesting and funny to like come across all of the little origin stories for these things that most.

People I know still do, even like the throwing of the book.

People I know still do, even like the throwing of the book.

So my big planet was that I was going to get like a poisonous cactus bouquet. Our wedding was in the desert, is in josuit tree, and so that I was going to be like, don't you dare tell me to throw this anyway?

So my big planet was that I was going to get like a poisonous cactus bouquet. Our wedding was in the desert, is in josuit tree, and so that I was going to be like, don't you dare tell me to throw this anyway?

I didn't. I didn't have a book here.

I didn't. I didn't have a book here.

Thinking about me was that when I was single, I refused to participate in that ritual. I found it so degraded, like want to catch this bouquet and people are like, oh god it.

Thinking about me was that when I was single, I refused to participate in that ritual. I found it so degraded, like want to catch this bouquet and people are like, oh god it.

I was like, no, that's so weird.

I was like, no, that's so weird.

I wrote a story about this one I don't know, in like the Twenty Times or something about how the new thing that I was noticing this was the time I was going to two million weddings, was they would do the book Katos and everyone would like run away exactly, and it would just like thud On wanted to catch the fucking.

I wrote a story about this one I don't know, in like the Twenty Times or something about how the new thing that I was noticing this was the time I was going to two million weddings, was they would do the book Katos and everyone would like run away exactly, and it would just like thud On wanted to catch the fucking.

Role stand in the middle of the room and be like, no one wanted.

Role stand in the middle of the room and be like, no one wanted.

To get married.

To get married.

A few years ago, I was doing a piece about Helen Fisher. She's an anthropologist who studies love. She's written a bunch of books, and part of her research has found that, you know, monogamy is not natural essentially, and that couples and partnerships often tend to go in stages of like seven I think it's around seven years. It's like the seven years and exactly. Yeah, I guess that's probably where that comes from. And so it's us who've created this necessity for this idea of together forever.

A few years ago, I was doing a piece about Helen Fisher. She's an anthropologist who studies love. She's written a bunch of books, and part of her research has found that, you know, monogamy is not natural essentially, and that couples and partnerships often tend to go in stages of like seven I think it's around seven years. It's like the seven years and exactly. Yeah, I guess that's probably where that comes from. And so it's us who've created this necessity for this idea of together forever.

And she.

And she.

Was married at the time and actually live next door to her husband.

Was married at the time and actually live next door to her husband.

So this is actually one of my dreams.

So this is actually one of my dreams.

Honestly, I always wanted this, Like, I mean, I think Mike thinks this is crazy, so we're definitely not going to do this. But like my dream is to live in apartments, like either next door to each other or across from each other, because I feel like then you just both get to have your own space. And also I think it's a New York fantasy, right because if you have a big house, fine, but right in New York, like in an apartment, you're.

Honestly, I always wanted this, Like, I mean, I think Mike thinks this is crazy, so we're definitely not going to do this. But like my dream is to live in apartments, like either next door to each other or across from each other, because I feel like then you just both get to have your own space. And also I think it's a New York fantasy, right because if you have a big house, fine, but right in New York, like in an apartment, you're.

You know, it's tight.

You know, it's tight.

Yeah, So you do kind of wish you had this way to like own your own little piece of the world, and that's definitely something that's complicated for me. I mean even with getting married, Like I own my apartment. This apartment is probably my greatest achievement, if we're just being honest, Like what it took for me to be able to buy this apartment was you know, a lot of work and sacrifice. So it's hard for me to imagine leaving this apartment, even though that's like a choice I might have to make to be in a relationship.

Yeah, So you do kind of wish you had this way to like own your own little piece of the world, and that's definitely something that's complicated for me. I mean even with getting married, Like I own my apartment. This apartment is probably my greatest achievement, if we're just being honest, Like what it took for me to be able to buy this apartment was you know, a lot of work and sacrifice. So it's hard for me to imagine leaving this apartment, even though that's like a choice I might have to make to be in a relationship.

Like or maybe you don't, Like I think that's the thing, Like you can really create your own version of family today, and it's like choose your own adventure and like go for it.

Like or maybe you don't, Like I think that's the thing, Like you can really create your own version of family today, and it's like choose your own adventure and like go for it.

It just does feel like there are lots of ways to have family now, and.

It just does feel like there are lots of ways to have family now, and.

There are lots of ways to have family and chosen family.

There are lots of ways to have family and chosen family.

Yes, chosen family.

Yes, chosen family.

Actually, Susie, I thought it would be interesting to bring Searon on Sean Attia, one of our producers on this podcast Slash our Friend, because she has a pretty interesting domestic arrangement that we can let her talk about.

Actually, Susie, I thought it would be interesting to bring Searon on Sean Attia, one of our producers on this podcast Slash our Friend, because she has a pretty interesting domestic arrangement that we can let her talk about.

Hi Searon, Hi, Hi Sharon. Hello, Hello, It's so nice to be unmuted.

Hi Searon, Hi, Hi Sharon. Hello, Hello, It's so nice to be unmuted.

Amazing so you have a I think what you would call life partner slash chosen family in m your room.

Amazing so you have a I think what you would call life partner slash chosen family in m your room.

Yes, could you talk to us a little bit about that? Absolutely, so, Susie.

Yes, could you talk to us a little bit about that? Absolutely, so, Susie.

I don't think you've met em yet, but we were randomly assigned freshman year roommates, so we owe a lot of credit to the NYU Housing Department and we have never lived with anyone else ever since. We're hitting our tenure anniversary this August.

I don't think you've met em yet, but we were randomly assigned freshman year roommates, so we owe a lot of credit to the NYU Housing Department and we have never lived with anyone else ever since. We're hitting our tenure anniversary this August.

I got the invite for the party.

I got the invite for the party.

Yeah, it's going to be lit. We are I can't believe I said lit.

Yeah, it's going to be lit. We are I can't believe I said lit.

We are very much treating this kind of like a wedding, but not a wedding.

We are very much treating this kind of like a wedding, but not a wedding.

There's going to be merch.

There's going to be merch.

If people want to give us gifts, I would prefer money so we could go on a trip.

If people want to give us gifts, I would prefer money so we could go on a trip.

I've offered to officiate just in case you decide you totally no.

I've offered to officiate just in case you decide you totally no.

But I really do think that that kind of speaks to our relationship in that over the last ten years, even our closest friends and family are sort of confused as to what the relationship is. They're like, okay, your roommates and your best friends, but are you more than that?

But I really do think that that kind of speaks to our relationship in that over the last ten years, even our closest friends and family are sort of confused as to what the relationship is. They're like, okay, your roommates and your best friends, but are you more than that?

Like, is there an asterisk or a plus there, And I think.

Like, is there an asterisk or a plus there, And I think.

Part of that is because we both came out in college and so then people are like, oh, you actually could be really together, but then we confuse them more because we're not. And I always joke that if we were actually together, why would we be paying rent for a two bedroom in New York? Why wouldn't we jump do like a one bedroom.

Part of that is because we both came out in college and so then people are like, oh, you actually could be really together, but then we confuse them more because we're not. And I always joke that if we were actually together, why would we be paying rent for a two bedroom in New York? Why wouldn't we jump do like a one bedroom.

I mean the way you've described it, like, it's not just plent like it's right more right? Yeah, I think absolutely, it's more than that. I think we go on dates.

I mean the way you've described it, like, it's not just plent like it's right more right? Yeah, I think absolutely, it's more than that. I think we go on dates.

We factor each other into life plans, we plan these big trips together. We're always invited together to things like not even as a plus one both people, even if it's only one of our friends.

We factor each other into life plans, we plan these big trips together. We're always invited together to things like not even as a plus one both people, even if it's only one of our friends.

Do you guys go on dates with other people too?

Do you guys go on dates with other people too?

Or do you consider this like the primary relationship in your life?

Or do you consider this like the primary relationship in your life?

Oh like, do we romantically date people outside of the two of us?

Oh like, do we romantically date people outside of the two of us?

Yes?

Yes?

Yes, but no we kind of famously like don't really care about dating.

Yes, but no we kind of famously like don't really care about dating.

Occasionally. I go on dates, not really.

Occasionally. I go on dates, not really.

I think the way I think about it is either I go on a shitty date where like maybe there're sparks, but it's probably like awkward and the small talks mediocre, or I get to hang out with my favorite person and do life like they're an amazing chef. We might go to a restaurant we've been wanting to go see a play, like I just I think I have the ideal setup.

I think the way I think about it is either I go on a shitty date where like maybe there're sparks, but it's probably like awkward and the small talks mediocre, or I get to hang out with my favorite person and do life like they're an amazing chef. We might go to a restaurant we've been wanting to go see a play, like I just I think I have the ideal setup.

And the that's an amazing cook. By the way, Yes, I have a question.

And the that's an amazing cook. By the way, Yes, I have a question.

We don't have to use if it's too personal, but like, no, do you but don't you miss sex?

We don't have to use if it's too personal, but like, no, do you but don't you miss sex?

Oh?

Oh?

I mean I have sex?

I mean I have sex?

No.

No.

I definitely date and stuff with like the idea of like looking for someone where it's like and that person's going to be like my best friend and my lover right and we're going to live together. I just don't really view relationships and that sort of hierarchy, and so I don't pook like romance as like the top of it. And I just haven't found my person yet. I actually feel really fulfilled by my relationships. And when I date people, they absolutely feel intimidated and threatened by say right, oh big time. And I don't even like do anything to appease that person. I'm like, yeah, absolutely, You're like.

I definitely date and stuff with like the idea of like looking for someone where it's like and that person's going to be like my best friend and my lover right and we're going to live together. I just don't really view relationships and that sort of hierarchy, and so I don't pook like romance as like the top of it. And I just haven't found my person yet. I actually feel really fulfilled by my relationships. And when I date people, they absolutely feel intimidated and threatened by say right, oh big time. And I don't even like do anything to appease that person. I'm like, yeah, absolutely, You're like.

This is the setup, this is my primary person.

This is the setup, this is my primary person.

It's interesting you say that though about not putting kind of like all your eggs in one but like you can get different things from different people, because if you actually look at the history of marriage, like this idea of a soulmate and all encompassing soulmate is a relatively new invention. Yeah, definitely, Like it didn't used to be that you were supposed to find one all fulfilling person for every aspect of your life sexually, romantically, friendship, intellectual stimulation, and so.

It's interesting you say that though about not putting kind of like all your eggs in one but like you can get different things from different people, because if you actually look at the history of marriage, like this idea of a soulmate and all encompassing soulmate is a relatively new invention. Yeah, definitely, Like it didn't used to be that you were supposed to find one all fulfilling person for every aspect of your life sexually, romantically, friendship, intellectual stimulation, and so.

On some level. For women, you weren't supposed to get those things.

On some level. For women, you weren't supposed to get those things.

It was like nobody gave a shit whether or not you felt romantic, you had a soul Like they were like, this.

It was like nobody gave a shit whether or not you felt romantic, you had a soul Like they were like, this.

Is what you do is pay your bills.

Is what you do is pay your bills.

But there was some time in between when and it became like you are looking for everything and it's actually I mean, I think like from the time of my broken off long term relationship to the time of my present relationship and marriage, I sort of got more comfortable with the idea that like, my girlfriends are my like intellectual stimulations, like there who I got, ye, Like my husband doesn't need to fulfill all of that.

But there was some time in between when and it became like you are looking for everything and it's actually I mean, I think like from the time of my broken off long term relationship to the time of my present relationship and marriage, I sort of got more comfortable with the idea that like, my girlfriends are my like intellectual stimulations, like there who I got, ye, Like my husband doesn't need to fulfill all of that.

Right, Yeah, that's even want that I mean I think for me.

Right, Yeah, that's even want that I mean I think for me.

Also, I was single for a long time before I found a partner, and I just wouldn't want to have the kind of partner who wanted to go with me to everything and be with me like that wouldn't be appealing to me because so much of my friendships are about like the relationship I have with that person on my own. I don't want someone else to be inserted in every single aspect of my life.

Also, I was single for a long time before I found a partner, and I just wouldn't want to have the kind of partner who wanted to go with me to everything and be with me like that wouldn't be appealing to me because so much of my friendships are about like the relationship I have with that person on my own. I don't want someone else to be inserted in every single aspect of my life.

Sean, do you feel pressure to marry at any point?

Sean, do you feel pressure to marry at any point?

And explain how you explain your relationship with them to your immigrant parents.

And explain how you explain your relationship with them to your immigrant parents.

Yeah, I think it was really hard helpful that they sort of met M as my roommate, you know what I mean, And so I think you're the first. Yeah, and so for the very first year they were just like, we're so happy that she's far away in New York, but that she has a best friend and like has created a family. And I call EM's family like my in laws, and they live on the East Coast, so I actually go visit them often more sometimes than flying out to LA and I have a really close relationship with them. But yeah, how do I describe it to my friends and family? I think sometimes I think it's hilarious, the murkiness.

Yeah, I think it was really hard helpful that they sort of met M as my roommate, you know what I mean, And so I think you're the first. Yeah, and so for the very first year they were just like, we're so happy that she's far away in New York, but that she has a best friend and like has created a family. And I call EM's family like my in laws, and they live on the East Coast, so I actually go visit them often more sometimes than flying out to LA and I have a really close relationship with them. But yeah, how do I describe it to my friends and family? I think sometimes I think it's hilarious, the murkiness.

So every year on our anniversary.

So every year on our anniversary.

I post something and my sister will get a call from an aunt or an uncle or a message from a cousin every year led clockwork, and they'll be like, Okay, but are they because I mean I'll post like a very romantic caption photo. I'll be like, I love our life together, the life we've built, you know things that like I think straight people, straight girls maybe aren't posting about their friendships. But yeah, I think there's murkiness. And I find a lot of humor in the confusion and confusing people in terms of feeling pressure to have a wedding. I am, to my core a middle child, and I mean that in that it has seeped into every part of my personality. And so my older sister has been with her partner and husband now for fifteen years, and they were like high school sweethearts, and when they were getting married, I very much kind of looked at my parents and maybe also said something where I was like, get this out of your system, like this is the wedding where you invite the uncles and that guy was a lawyer for you on that one deal. Because even if I get married someday, which I'm not closed off to, but I have no goals to get married.

I post something and my sister will get a call from an aunt or an uncle or a message from a cousin every year led clockwork, and they'll be like, Okay, but are they because I mean I'll post like a very romantic caption photo. I'll be like, I love our life together, the life we've built, you know things that like I think straight people, straight girls maybe aren't posting about their friendships. But yeah, I think there's murkiness. And I find a lot of humor in the confusion and confusing people in terms of feeling pressure to have a wedding. I am, to my core a middle child, and I mean that in that it has seeped into every part of my personality. And so my older sister has been with her partner and husband now for fifteen years, and they were like high school sweethearts, and when they were getting married, I very much kind of looked at my parents and maybe also said something where I was like, get this out of your system, like this is the wedding where you invite the uncles and that guy was a lawyer for you on that one deal. Because even if I get married someday, which I'm not closed off to, but I have no goals to get married.

I'm not like by thirty or forty.

I'm not like by thirty or forty.

Yeah, but I'm also like the only out queer person in my ginormous family, and so people just don't ask me.

Yeah, but I'm also like the only out queer person in my ginormous family, and so people just don't ask me.

Questions about marriage.

Questions about marriage.

So if anything, I think if I said yes, they'd be like, oh fuck, like we love her so much?

So if anything, I think if I said yes, they'd be like, oh fuck, like we love her so much?

What does that mean? Like is it going to be a gay wedding?

What does that mean? Like is it going to be a gay wedding?

Yeah?

Yeah?

And so I'm the fun aunt, like I'm the fun cousin, I'm the fun granddaughter.

And so I'm the fun aunt, like I'm the fun cousin, I'm the fun granddaughter.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And whether or not I have a big party like I don't.

And whether or not I have a big party like I don't.

And you're about to coming up? Yeah, I mean okay. So to like to bring it back to the Newsweek's story, I think probably a lot of us would just kind of shrug or roll our eyes if that headline were to come out today.

And you're about to coming up? Yeah, I mean okay. So to like to bring it back to the Newsweek's story, I think probably a lot of us would just kind of shrug or roll our eyes if that headline were to come out today.

But Sean, what would your reaction? I think I would just probably be deep in sharing all of the hilarious memes and falling along on TikTok and Twitter. I also think it just feels like a really straight conversation, and so I think amongst like my queer group chats, we would just be like, Okay, this changes nothing.

But Sean, what would your reaction? I think I would just probably be deep in sharing all of the hilarious memes and falling along on TikTok and Twitter. I also think it just feels like a really straight conversation, and so I think amongst like my queer group chats, we would just be like, Okay, this changes nothing.

Well, it would be like, are the straights.

Well, it would be like, are the straights.

Okay, yeah, yeah, literally this which it's okay, which we're asking all the time, or like our streets okay.

Okay, yeah, yeah, literally this which it's okay, which we're asking all the time, or like our streets okay.

I mean it's really debatable whether or not the answer is like no, I mean generally speaking.

I mean it's really debatable whether or not the answer is like no, I mean generally speaking.

It just wouldn't exist.

It just wouldn't exist.

Like like, sure you could find data to show that likelihood of women marrying was low, but it would not be framed in such a hetero What.

Like like, sure you could find data to show that likelihood of women marrying was low, but it would not be framed in such a hetero What.

If it was, it would be like on Fox News, so you'd be like, I don't care what Fox News.

If it was, it would be like on Fox News, so you'd be like, I don't care what Fox News.

Says anyway, right, So I think the reality is that this headline in retrospect, it's kind of funny and it wouldn't exist today. However, some of that tension around work and partnership, whatever the partnership you create for yourself is, does still exist.

Says anyway, right, So I think the reality is that this headline in retrospect, it's kind of funny and it wouldn't exist today. However, some of that tension around work and partnership, whatever the partnership you create for yourself is, does still exist.

Well it's interesting because Sharon, the way you're describing your relationship, it doesn't really exist for you, right, Like you don't feel some kind of tension where you have to choose between having this relationship in your life and work. And maybe that's just something that is generational. But I think it's kind of it's heartening to see Sharon feel like she can just you know, because I think relationships like this have probably existed in the past, but they weren't.

Well it's interesting because Sharon, the way you're describing your relationship, it doesn't really exist for you, right, Like you don't feel some kind of tension where you have to choose between having this relationship in your life and work. And maybe that's just something that is generational. But I think it's kind of it's heartening to see Sharon feel like she can just you know, because I think relationships like this have probably existed in the past, but they weren't.

Yeah, they weren't represented. And also right, they.

Yeah, they weren't represented. And also right, they.

Felt like they had to pretend to be best friends externally. Right, that you get to decide what you want from your life and nobody gets to say and that's.

Felt like they had to pretend to be best friends externally. Right, that you get to decide what you want from your life and nobody gets to say and that's.

Great, honestly, Susie, maybe that's a good place to end it. It's like, build the life that you want, lean into what your ambition is in whatever way that may play out, and like screw the headlines, whether it's coming from Newsweek or else.

Great, honestly, Susie, maybe that's a good place to end it. It's like, build the life that you want, lean into what your ambition is in whatever way that may play out, and like screw the headlines, whether it's coming from Newsweek or else.

Yeah, all the noise is just noise. Ignore it. This is in retrospect. Thanks for listening.

Yeah, all the noise is just noise. Ignore it. This is in retrospect. Thanks for listening.

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