Hey everyone, it's susy. Since we originally published this episode in May of twenty twenty four, there have been significant developments for Lyle and Eric Menendez, brothers, who were convicted of murdering their parents in the early nineteen nineties. The brothers do not deny the killings, but they say they endured years of sexual and emotional abuse from their father, and a recent documentary and a docudrama on Netflix have reignited interest in their case. A number of their family members have come forward with impassion pleas for their release, saying that they believe them about the abuse, and on October twenty fourth, in a studying development, the Los Angeles District Attorney said that he would request that the Menendez brothers be resentenced.

Hey everyone, it's susy. Since we originally published this episode in May of twenty twenty four, there have been significant developments for Lyle and Eric Menendez, brothers, who were convicted of murdering their parents in the early nineteen nineties. The brothers do not deny the killings, but they say they endured years of sexual and emotional abuse from their father, and a recent documentary and a docudrama on Netflix have reignited interest in their case. A number of their family members have come forward with impassion pleas for their release, saying that they believe them about the abuse, and on October twenty fourth, in a studying development, the Los Angeles District Attorney said that he would request that the Menendez brothers be resentenced.

I believe that they have paid their debt to society, and the system provides a vehicle for their case to be reviewed by a parole bar and the role concurs with my assessment, and it will be their decision. There will be released accordantly.

I believe that they have paid their debt to society, and the system provides a vehicle for their case to be reviewed by a parole bar and the role concurs with my assessment, and it will be their decision. There will be released accordantly.

If you're looking for contacts. This episode explains how we arrived at this extraordinary moment, and how kids on social media played an important role, and how new evidence may impact whether they are ultimately released, and as a warning, we discuss the sexual and emotional abuse of children in detail.

If you're looking for contacts. This episode explains how we arrived at this extraordinary moment, and how kids on social media played an important role, and how new evidence may impact whether they are ultimately released, and as a warning, we discuss the sexual and emotional abuse of children in detail.

Are we with the stands here?

Are we with the stands here?

I mean maybe like the romantic stands? Yeah, But now you tell this in the light of twenty twenty four makes it sound like the TikTokers are actually onto something.

I mean maybe like the romantic stands? Yeah, But now you tell this in the light of twenty twenty four makes it sound like the TikTokers are actually onto something.

I'm Susie BANACHERM and I'm Jessica Bennett. And this is in Retrospect, where each week we revisit a cultural moment from the past that shaped.

I'm Susie BANACHERM and I'm Jessica Bennett. And this is in Retrospect, where each week we revisit a cultural moment from the past that shaped.

Us and that we just can't stop thinking about.

Us and that we just can't stop thinking about.

Today, we're talking about Lyle and Eric Menendez, two Beverly Hills brothers convicted of killing their parents in a case that captivated the nation in the early nineteen nineties. But we're also talking about how in recent years they have become unlikely social media stars despite being in prison for thirty four years.

Today, we're talking about Lyle and Eric Menendez, two Beverly Hills brothers convicted of killing their parents in a case that captivated the nation in the early nineteen nineties. But we're also talking about how in recent years they have become unlikely social media stars despite being in prison for thirty four years.

Susie, I remember so vividly this era of a number of years, when I think I was in high school, the Menanda's brother's case just being constantly, constantly on the air and on television. But it was with some surprise only recently I noticed it was trending on TikTok.

Susie, I remember so vividly this era of a number of years, when I think I was in high school, the Menanda's brother's case just being constantly, constantly on the air and on television. But it was with some surprise only recently I noticed it was trending on TikTok.

Is that why you wanted to talk about.

Is that why you wanted to talk about.

This, Yes, So I also have this memory of this being in the zeitgeist. Like I vaguely knew about this case. I wasn't someone who read all the details or watched the trial as it was happening. But the story about them was always the same story, which was they were these two spoiled rich kids from Beverly Hills who had everything they wanted. They killed their parents because they wanted their inheritance and they wanted the parents out of the way. And after they killed them, they went on this wild spending spree. So I hadn't really thought about the Menendez brothers in a long time. I mean, that's a pretty salacious story, and I remember being kind of fascinated by the concept of killing your parents for money that you already had access to, right right, And I think I saw one of the TV movies at the time, although I don't remember it that well. But a few years ago I did start noticing this on TikTok that occasionally in my feed i'd see a video about these brothers.

This, Yes, So I also have this memory of this being in the zeitgeist. Like I vaguely knew about this case. I wasn't someone who read all the details or watched the trial as it was happening. But the story about them was always the same story, which was they were these two spoiled rich kids from Beverly Hills who had everything they wanted. They killed their parents because they wanted their inheritance and they wanted the parents out of the way. And after they killed them, they went on this wild spending spree. So I hadn't really thought about the Menendez brothers in a long time. I mean, that's a pretty salacious story, and I remember being kind of fascinated by the concept of killing your parents for money that you already had access to, right right, And I think I saw one of the TV movies at the time, although I don't remember it that well. But a few years ago I did start noticing this on TikTok that occasionally in my feed i'd see a video about these brothers.

Why did the Menandez brothers kill their own parents?

Why did the Menandez brothers kill their own parents?

This is part three of this chilling case.

This is part three of this chilling case.

Did you hear the latest news about the Menandez brothers.

Did you hear the latest news about the Menandez brothers.

Four facts about the Menendez brothers.

Four facts about the Menendez brothers.

Menandez brothers and Menendez brothers, Menendez, these two brothers should be out of prison by now. I sort of just took a mental note. I was like, why is there renewed interest in this? But I sort of chalked it up to how obsessed everyone is with true crime now. But then a couple of years ago, Ezra Marcus wrote a piece for the New York Times. Did you read this piece? Yes? It was called the New Menendez Defenders, and it was about how, seemingly out of nowhere, suddenly hundreds of accounts on TikTok and Instagram were dedicated to the Menendez brothers and how they didn't receive a fair trial and how the abuse they suffered during their childhoods led to this crime.

Menandez brothers and Menendez brothers, Menendez, these two brothers should be out of prison by now. I sort of just took a mental note. I was like, why is there renewed interest in this? But I sort of chalked it up to how obsessed everyone is with true crime now. But then a couple of years ago, Ezra Marcus wrote a piece for the New York Times. Did you read this piece? Yes? It was called the New Menendez Defenders, and it was about how, seemingly out of nowhere, suddenly hundreds of accounts on TikTok and Instagram were dedicated to the Menendez brothers and how they didn't receive a fair trial and how the abuse they suffered during their childhoods led to this crime.

This became a trial by media, completely sensationalized, many believing that these two preppy, good looking, rich young men had killed their parents for money, and in reality, their motive for murder was far more heartbreaking and dare I say understandable.

This became a trial by media, completely sensationalized, many believing that these two preppy, good looking, rich young men had killed their parents for money, and in reality, their motive for murder was far more heartbreaking and dare I say understandable.

I honestly had such a vague memory that there had been some abuse allegations. I'm not sure I had ever really paid attention to that, so I thought that was really interesting. And even the way Ezrah describes these accounts as fascinating, right, Like a lot of them are just endless clips from the original trials or news were parts of the time. But some of them are literal fan accounts that are dedicated to how hot the brothers are or were.

I honestly had such a vague memory that there had been some abuse allegations. I'm not sure I had ever really paid attention to that, so I thought that was really interesting. And even the way Ezrah describes these accounts as fascinating, right, Like a lot of them are just endless clips from the original trials or news were parts of the time. But some of them are literal fan accounts that are dedicated to how hot the brothers are or were.

I guess is wild. It is the wildest.

I guess is wild. It is the wildest.

How old were the Menanda's brothers at the time this took place.

How old were the Menanda's brothers at the time this took place.

They were twenty one and eighteen, and they were very attractive, kind of like Beverly Hills preppies at the time. Right, A lot was made of their looks. One of the reporters who covered them at the time talked about how they received thousands of letters a week at the Los Angeles County jail when they were on trial. Some of them contain nude photos and ropes would line up to see the trial. Yes, but these very specific stand culture accounts. They have a certain kind of like dreamy, soft focus vibe, and there's like music and often with the Menanda's brothers, it's stills of them stitched together, often from the trials, very weird things. It is amazing like my love Eric Menendez or Lyle Menendez, and one of them had a video that was captured Happy Birthday King for Eric Menende's birthday, and then just like had pictures from his childhood, which I also found creepy, Like I was like, what are you posting pictures of him when he was like six or seven, especially because what we know now of his childhood is not great. The other thing that the New York Times piece identified was that they're mostly gen z right, and that it's a very international crowd.

They were twenty one and eighteen, and they were very attractive, kind of like Beverly Hills preppies at the time. Right, A lot was made of their looks. One of the reporters who covered them at the time talked about how they received thousands of letters a week at the Los Angeles County jail when they were on trial. Some of them contain nude photos and ropes would line up to see the trial. Yes, but these very specific stand culture accounts. They have a certain kind of like dreamy, soft focus vibe, and there's like music and often with the Menanda's brothers, it's stills of them stitched together, often from the trials, very weird things. It is amazing like my love Eric Menendez or Lyle Menendez, and one of them had a video that was captured Happy Birthday King for Eric Menende's birthday, and then just like had pictures from his childhood, which I also found creepy, Like I was like, what are you posting pictures of him when he was like six or seven, especially because what we know now of his childhood is not great. The other thing that the New York Times piece identified was that they're mostly gen z right, and that it's a very international crowd.

Oh, it's an international.

Oh, it's an international.

Crowd, but almost entirely teenagers who have looked at the details of this case and have wondered how the stories of abuse and we'll get into them were not more front and center in the coverage. And it is a good question, Like I have now gone back and fallen into this rabbit hole, and there's a lot of things to think about with this case.

Crowd, but almost entirely teenagers who have looked at the details of this case and have wondered how the stories of abuse and we'll get into them were not more front and center in the coverage. And it is a good question, Like I have now gone back and fallen into this rabbit hole, and there's a lot of things to think about with this case.

Okay, So just to take as a step back for a minute. I know that these things crop up on TikTok and people become obsessed with new subjects from the past, and you don't ever really know why. In this moment, we are talking again about the menandas brothers. So do you know anything about what caused this sudden renewed interest.

Okay, So just to take as a step back for a minute. I know that these things crop up on TikTok and people become obsessed with new subjects from the past, and you don't ever really know why. In this moment, we are talking again about the menandas brothers. So do you know anything about what caused this sudden renewed interest.

Well, as you say, it's very hard to pinpoint exactly why something sort of returns. So the Zeidis, there's a couple theories about why. Okay, this has become kind of a popular case again, if that's the right way of framing it. Any did a documentary about them in twenty seventeen, and that didn't get posted on Hulu until twenty nineteen. So there's some sense that when that was posted in twenty nineteen, Blue, where you know a lot of gen z gets their content, they watched this documentary and it renewed their interests. That's sort of where it began. And one of the social media fans in the New York Times piece did talk about watching that A and E documentary, So that might have reintroduced this case to a new generation of true crime. Yeah, but I think the thing that likely had the bigger impact is that during the pandemic, Court TV, which aired this trial, Gabble to Gabble, as they called it. This was one of the first trials where that happened, posted the entire trial to YouTube.

Well, as you say, it's very hard to pinpoint exactly why something sort of returns. So the Zeidis, there's a couple theories about why. Okay, this has become kind of a popular case again, if that's the right way of framing it. Any did a documentary about them in twenty seventeen, and that didn't get posted on Hulu until twenty nineteen. So there's some sense that when that was posted in twenty nineteen, Blue, where you know a lot of gen z gets their content, they watched this documentary and it renewed their interests. That's sort of where it began. And one of the social media fans in the New York Times piece did talk about watching that A and E documentary, So that might have reintroduced this case to a new generation of true crime. Yeah, but I think the thing that likely had the bigger impact is that during the pandemic, Court TV, which aired this trial, Gabble to Gabble, as they called it. This was one of the first trials where that happened, posted the entire trial to YouTube.

And we have both jury panels back in the courtroom and everyone else is present, the defense may call its next witness.

And we have both jury panels back in the courtroom and everyone else is present, the defense may call its next witness.

Thanks, he just blowman Inus.

Thanks, he just blowman Inus.

And so you know, at a time, oh, when we're all at home in the pandemic.

And so you know, at a time, oh, when we're all at home in the pandemic.

Yeah, at a time when everyone's at home and desperate for like interesting content, I think a lot of kids just would have this on all day. And so a lot of TikTok and Instagram accounts start posting videos after that, and Google searches for the Menanda's brother Spike. In May of twenty twenty one, right after Court TV started putting the videos on YouTube of the trial. So I suspect that had a lot to do with it. And another one of the social media supporters from the New York Times piece, a twenty something student from London named Jordan Wynn, talked about how he watched the entire trial during the pandemic and that inspired him to start his Instagram account at Menendez supporter got it. But I went through some of these accounts last week because it had been a while since I looked at them, and I was curious. Yeah, and by the way, rip my algorithm. Obviously, I'm just going to be served Menendez brother's content from.

Yeah, at a time when everyone's at home and desperate for like interesting content, I think a lot of kids just would have this on all day. And so a lot of TikTok and Instagram accounts start posting videos after that, and Google searches for the Menanda's brother Spike. In May of twenty twenty one, right after Court TV started putting the videos on YouTube of the trial. So I suspect that had a lot to do with it. And another one of the social media supporters from the New York Times piece, a twenty something student from London named Jordan Wynn, talked about how he watched the entire trial during the pandemic and that inspired him to start his Instagram account at Menendez supporter got it. But I went through some of these accounts last week because it had been a while since I looked at them, and I was curious. Yeah, and by the way, rip my algorithm. Obviously, I'm just going to be served Menendez brother's content from.

Now on yeah, forever for the rest of your life.

Now on yeah, forever for the rest of your life.

Sorry. I found that there are still hundreds of accounts and they have millions and millions of views, and it is fascinating. There's one called Menendez Supporter three hours and it has two hundred and sixty five thousand followers and almost thirteen million likes on its videos. One of its pinned videos has almost sixteen million views and the other one has seven million, So it just gives you a sense of how popular this content is. And the most popular accounts tend to be mostly news clips or news reports from the time, clips from the TV movies. There was a Law and Order special. They did a limited series that was just the Menendez brothers a few years ago. Clips from that seemed to do pretty well. Another element of what's happened here in terms of renewed interest is there's a change dot org petition. It was started in March of twenty nineteen and it has about three hundred thousand signatures. But weirdly, it's a petition to Leslie Abramson, who, if you don't know, was Eric's lawyer during his initial trials, and she's kind of a big character herself. She was a petition to do what well to you know, I guess file another appeal. But she's not their appellet attorney. She's not involved in their case anymore at all.

Sorry. I found that there are still hundreds of accounts and they have millions and millions of views, and it is fascinating. There's one called Menendez Supporter three hours and it has two hundred and sixty five thousand followers and almost thirteen million likes on its videos. One of its pinned videos has almost sixteen million views and the other one has seven million, So it just gives you a sense of how popular this content is. And the most popular accounts tend to be mostly news clips or news reports from the time, clips from the TV movies. There was a Law and Order special. They did a limited series that was just the Menendez brothers a few years ago. Clips from that seemed to do pretty well. Another element of what's happened here in terms of renewed interest is there's a change dot org petition. It was started in March of twenty nineteen and it has about three hundred thousand signatures. But weirdly, it's a petition to Leslie Abramson, who, if you don't know, was Eric's lawyer during his initial trials, and she's kind of a big character herself. She was a petition to do what well to you know, I guess file another appeal. But she's not their appellet attorney. She's not involved in their case anymore at all.

Okay, So it's a petition to their former lawyer to file a new appeal on their case.

Okay, So it's a petition to their former lawyer to file a new appeal on their case.

Yeah, which gives you a sense of how plugged in these kids are to the reality of what's happened to the wrong person. Okay, God, but I found this also fascinating. There was an LA Times piece recently and they reached out to Leslie Abramson just to get her take on what's happening. Oh okay, and she said she doesn't discuss the case anymore. And then there's this quote from her, I am still harassed by TV producers, high school kids and nutcases who promise to get my clients out of prison. Oh she said it an email. I have nothing else to say to you. But I was like high school kids, Like, imagine how many of these TikTokers must be reaching out to Leslie Abramson.

Yeah, which gives you a sense of how plugged in these kids are to the reality of what's happened to the wrong person. Okay, God, but I found this also fascinating. There was an LA Times piece recently and they reached out to Leslie Abramson just to get her take on what's happening. Oh okay, and she said she doesn't discuss the case anymore. And then there's this quote from her, I am still harassed by TV producers, high school kids and nutcases who promise to get my clients out of prison. Oh she said it an email. I have nothing else to say to you. But I was like high school kids, Like, imagine how many of these TikTokers must be reaching out to Leslie Abramson.

Wow.

Wow.

And you know, Leslie Abramson I think is in her eighties now, Like she's probably like, who are these kids?

And you know, Leslie Abramson I think is in her eighties now, Like she's probably like, who are these kids?

Wow?

Wow?

She's like get going, literally, get all of my law, and she probably has no way of understanding what the fuck they're talking about. She doesn't know what stan accounts are, So yes, it's just I do think it's kind of a hilarious twist that she's sort of been dragged into this and is suddenly being contacted by children all around the world. But it's not just kids. Rosie O'Donnell the actress and former talk show host. She is a big defender of the Menanda's brothers. She recently interviewed Lyle from prison for her podcast It's a Very Special Episode.

She's like get going, literally, get all of my law, and she probably has no way of understanding what the fuck they're talking about. She doesn't know what stan accounts are, So yes, it's just I do think it's kind of a hilarious twist that she's sort of been dragged into this and is suddenly being contacted by children all around the world. But it's not just kids. Rosie O'Donnell the actress and former talk show host. She is a big defender of the Menanda's brothers. She recently interviewed Lyle from prison for her podcast It's a Very Special Episode.

I talked for the full hour to Lyele Menendez, who has been in prison for thirty four years for the killing of both of his parents after a lifetime of child abuse and incest.

I talked for the full hour to Lyele Menendez, who has been in prison for thirty four years for the killing of both of his parents after a lifetime of child abuse and incest.

And she did an interview with cour TV, and she said that she felt like the brothers didn't deserve to still be in jail, and that she grew up in a family with an abuse dynamic and that she believed that they had been abused and really believed that their lives were in danger.

And she did an interview with cour TV, and she said that she felt like the brothers didn't deserve to still be in jail, and that she grew up in a family with an abuse dynamic and that she believed that they had been abused and really believed that their lives were in danger.

Okay, so for people who don't remember, remind us what was the situation with the brothers and their trials and how long have they been in prison.

Okay, so for people who don't remember, remind us what was the situation with the brothers and their trials and how long have they been in prison.

They've been in prison for thirty four years, and there are just a lot of wild twists and turns to the story. I actually do think it's fascinating. I understand why it captured the imagination of the country then and why it's capturing the imagination of all these kids now. In a lot of ways, felt like a story made for the tabloids. Right he was in LA there was immediate interest in it. It felt like a TV movie from the start. So here are the particulars of the crime. Two brothers, Lyle and Eric Mendez. They were twenty one and eighteen at the time of the murders, whose parents, Jose and Kitty Menendez, were brutally murdered in the family home in August of nineteen eighty nine. And initially this seemed just like a random crime. The boys called it in to nine one one. The father, Jose, who was this very successful, wealthy and powerful Hollywood executive who had sort of lived the American dream. He had immigrated to America from Cuba with very little money and he'd made all his own money. There was some set that maybe this was a mob hit or somehow related to his business. Because he was this big wig executive.

They've been in prison for thirty four years, and there are just a lot of wild twists and turns to the story. I actually do think it's fascinating. I understand why it captured the imagination of the country then and why it's capturing the imagination of all these kids now. In a lot of ways, felt like a story made for the tabloids. Right he was in LA there was immediate interest in it. It felt like a TV movie from the start. So here are the particulars of the crime. Two brothers, Lyle and Eric Mendez. They were twenty one and eighteen at the time of the murders, whose parents, Jose and Kitty Menendez, were brutally murdered in the family home in August of nineteen eighty nine. And initially this seemed just like a random crime. The boys called it in to nine one one. The father, Jose, who was this very successful, wealthy and powerful Hollywood executive who had sort of lived the American dream. He had immigrated to America from Cuba with very little money and he'd made all his own money. There was some set that maybe this was a mob hit or somehow related to his business. Because he was this big wig executive.

It's not supposed to happen in Beverly Hills. A movie executive and his wife were brutally slain and their million dollar mansion.

It's not supposed to happen in Beverly Hills. A movie executive and his wife were brutally slain and their million dollar mansion.

There were no clues and no suspects. The crime initially was treated as just a random crime that had happened to this family, and the family had always projected this really all American family dynamic, right, successful dad, pretty blonde mom. The two sons were very handsome. Lyle was at Princeton, Eric had been accepted at UCLA. So they seemed like classic Beverly Hills kids and Beverly Hills nine oh two and oh. The show actually debuted in October of nineteen ninety, so the year okay, the year after, Yeah, so that image would have been very much in the zeitgeist. So initially there was a lot of sympathy for the boys. Right, they were victims. I'll called nine one one after they quotes found their parents.

There were no clues and no suspects. The crime initially was treated as just a random crime that had happened to this family, and the family had always projected this really all American family dynamic, right, successful dad, pretty blonde mom. The two sons were very handsome. Lyle was at Princeton, Eric had been accepted at UCLA. So they seemed like classic Beverly Hills kids and Beverly Hills nine oh two and oh. The show actually debuted in October of nineteen ninety, so the year okay, the year after, Yeah, so that image would have been very much in the zeitgeist. So initially there was a lot of sympathy for the boys. Right, they were victims. I'll called nine one one after they quotes found their parents.

Waits was the story that they had come home and found the parents dead.

Waits was the story that they had come home and found the parents dead.

Yeah, I mean I assume that that's kind of the story they told. Right. The story was they came home, they found their parents dead, got it? But the story really blows up because the brothers do end up turning themselves in in March of nineteen ninety okay, and admitting to the murder. So there really isn't a doubt. They have admitted for almost thirty four years that they murdered their parents, but it wasn't really clear why. And the reason they even got caught is because Eric was seeing a therapist, Eric who is the younger brother, and he confessed to the therapist, and in a really weird twist, the therapist mistress got mad at him about something. The therapist mistress, Yes, the therapist mistress got mad a therapist about something and in a rage, told the police that the therapist had told her that he had this tape recording a session wither he confessed to the murder. So it was this very convoluted way that they got caught.

Yeah, I mean I assume that that's kind of the story they told. Right. The story was they came home, they found their parents dead, got it? But the story really blows up because the brothers do end up turning themselves in in March of nineteen ninety okay, and admitting to the murder. So there really isn't a doubt. They have admitted for almost thirty four years that they murdered their parents, but it wasn't really clear why. And the reason they even got caught is because Eric was seeing a therapist, Eric who is the younger brother, and he confessed to the therapist, and in a really weird twist, the therapist mistress got mad at him about something. The therapist mistress, Yes, the therapist mistress got mad a therapist about something and in a rage, told the police that the therapist had told her that he had this tape recording a session wither he confessed to the murder. So it was this very convoluted way that they got caught.

I mean, you can see why.

I mean, you can see why.

This is like the perfect made for TV. So there's even a mistress involved.

This is like the perfect made for TV. So there's even a mistress involved.

And the police almost immediately started making statements about how savage these murders were. These were really bloody murders. The crime scene was incredibly bloody. Jose the father was shot six times and the mother Kitty was shot ten times. Oh wow, So it was I think what they referred to as overkill. The brutality of the murders is commented on a lot in the media. It's part of what really sways public opinion away from the boys. And then there are really two other things that get a lot of attention. The first is that after the murderers, the boys seem to have gone on what is described in the press as a spending spree.

And the police almost immediately started making statements about how savage these murders were. These were really bloody murders. The crime scene was incredibly bloody. Jose the father was shot six times and the mother Kitty was shot ten times. Oh wow, So it was I think what they referred to as overkill. The brutality of the murders is commented on a lot in the media. It's part of what really sways public opinion away from the boys. And then there are really two other things that get a lot of attention. The first is that after the murderers, the boys seem to have gone on what is described in the press as a spending spree.

They didn't do a very good job of acting their roles of grieving sun police say the boys went on a wild spending spree, and unlike the relatives of most murdered vities, the Menandoz boys did not seem to take much interest in the police search for their parents' murderers.

They didn't do a very good job of acting their roles of grieving sun police say the boys went on a wild spending spree, and unlike the relatives of most murdered vities, the Menandoz boys did not seem to take much interest in the police search for their parents' murderers.

So this sort of supports the idea that they're motivated by greed and just wanted access to their father's money.

So this sort of supports the idea that they're motivated by greed and just wanted access to their father's money.

Right, Why did you need to buy a Rolex watch four days after your parents were killed?

Right, Why did you need to buy a Rolex watch four days after your parents were killed?

I didn't need to.

I didn't need to.

You wanted to. Lyle bought a Porsche and a Rolex and randomly a hot Wings restaurant in Princeton, New Jersey, which I don't even know. That's a strange investment. They moved out of the house, which I guess is not weird since there had been these brutal murders there, But they moved into adjoining condos, which I think people found odd. Eric hired a full time tennis coach and went on the tennis circuit. But playing in the tennis like semi professional tendants are.

You wanted to. Lyle bought a Porsche and a Rolex and randomly a hot Wings restaurant in Princeton, New Jersey, which I don't even know. That's a strange investment. They moved out of the house, which I guess is not weird since there had been these brutal murders there, But they moved into adjoining condos, which I think people found odd. Eric hired a full time tennis coach and went on the tennis circuit. But playing in the tennis like semi professional tendants are.

Good even if they hadn't murdered them. Strange way to behave if your parents have just been murdered and you don't want to look suspicious.

Good even if they hadn't murdered them. Strange way to behave if your parents have just been murdered and you don't want to look suspicious.

So that's the interesting thing. I read that some of their family after all this came out, said, actually, these were just their spending habits, like this is just how they spent money. Oh, this was normal, and that this may have seemed odd if you were grieving, but they just spent money like crazy, and so they may just have not understood that they needed to shift their behavior.

So that's the interesting thing. I read that some of their family after all this came out, said, actually, these were just their spending habits, like this is just how they spent money. Oh, this was normal, and that this may have seemed odd if you were grieving, but they just spent money like crazy, and so they may just have not understood that they needed to shift their behavior.

That's so like to the rest of America. When it's now being reported in the press, it's insane because I think this family, but if you live in that bubble in Beverly Hills, maybe you do right.

That's so like to the rest of America. When it's now being reported in the press, it's insane because I think this family, but if you live in that bubble in Beverly Hills, maybe you do right.

But in the press, this spending spree is treated as a clear sign that they're just absolutely entitled greedy brats who were after the money. And that's really the second thing I think that really sways public opinion against them. They have this very clear motive. The motive is money. That their father's estate is worth fourteen million dollars. The two brothers are the sole beneficiaries of that fourteen million dollars, okay, And one of the things that circulated was that maybe he had been planning to withdraw them from his will or he was planning on cutting them off. So the motive was they wanted access to the money and they wanted to secure that access forever. The other thing that police revealed during this time is that they had become suspicious of the brothers fairly early on. You know, at the crime scene, they weren't suspicious of them. They didn't actually test to see if they had fired guns recently, which is very common if you're a suspect in a crime. That really would have made a big difference, I think in this case, but they weren't tested for that. They really were initially treated like grieving suns, but the police felt that they weren't really acting like grieving suns.

But in the press, this spending spree is treated as a clear sign that they're just absolutely entitled greedy brats who were after the money. And that's really the second thing I think that really sways public opinion against them. They have this very clear motive. The motive is money. That their father's estate is worth fourteen million dollars. The two brothers are the sole beneficiaries of that fourteen million dollars, okay, And one of the things that circulated was that maybe he had been planning to withdraw them from his will or he was planning on cutting them off. So the motive was they wanted access to the money and they wanted to secure that access forever. The other thing that police revealed during this time is that they had become suspicious of the brothers fairly early on. You know, at the crime scene, they weren't suspicious of them. They didn't actually test to see if they had fired guns recently, which is very common if you're a suspect in a crime. That really would have made a big difference, I think in this case, but they weren't tested for that. They really were initially treated like grieving suns, but the police felt that they weren't really acting like grieving suns.

It's so interesting because hearing it now, You're like, Okay, if this wasn't an uber, wealthy Beverly Hills family, isn't the person who finds about it always the first suspect?

It's so interesting because hearing it now, You're like, Okay, if this wasn't an uber, wealthy Beverly Hills family, isn't the person who finds about it always the first suspect?

Yeah?

Yeah?

I mean, honestly, everything I know about this I know from law and order, So I have no idea what it's like.

I mean, honestly, everything I know about this I know from law and order, So I have no idea what it's like.

Standard protocol in this case.

Standard protocol in this case.

But I assume that usually you would be a suspect if both your parents were murdered and you happened upon them in your home. But I think in general, this case was so out of the ordinary. Murders like this just did not happen in Beverly Hills, So I think in general the police were caught a little flat footed at the top. And what eventually happens here though, and this is really the crux of what these new fans are really focused on, is that the brothers attorneys come forward and say that their clients actually acted in self defense. They killed their parents because they had been suffering from years of emotional and sexual abuse, that the father had been sexually abusing these boys for the majority of their lives. And at the point that that story starts to be put forward by the boys attorneys, there has been three years where the majority of the public perception has been shaped by the prosecution side of the story. Yeah, and so no one really believed that they were victims themselves, and in fact, the prosecutors said this was just an attempt to assassinate the characters of the real victims, which were their parents. So going into the trial, I think it was safe to say that most people thought that this was an open and shycase and that the brothers were just going to go to jail. And one other sort of interesting thing about this is that this was considered a landmark case because this was the first time that lawyers were going to use the same defense used in domestic violence cases, which is that the homicide was in self defense and they feared for their lives. But it's what's referred to as imperfect self defense because you're not literally with a knife to your throat, but you feel that your life is in danger. And this hadn't been tested before outside of domestic violence, so in that sense, it was like a.

But I assume that usually you would be a suspect if both your parents were murdered and you happened upon them in your home. But I think in general, this case was so out of the ordinary. Murders like this just did not happen in Beverly Hills, So I think in general the police were caught a little flat footed at the top. And what eventually happens here though, and this is really the crux of what these new fans are really focused on, is that the brothers attorneys come forward and say that their clients actually acted in self defense. They killed their parents because they had been suffering from years of emotional and sexual abuse, that the father had been sexually abusing these boys for the majority of their lives. And at the point that that story starts to be put forward by the boys attorneys, there has been three years where the majority of the public perception has been shaped by the prosecution side of the story. Yeah, and so no one really believed that they were victims themselves, and in fact, the prosecutors said this was just an attempt to assassinate the characters of the real victims, which were their parents. So going into the trial, I think it was safe to say that most people thought that this was an open and shycase and that the brothers were just going to go to jail. And one other sort of interesting thing about this is that this was considered a landmark case because this was the first time that lawyers were going to use the same defense used in domestic violence cases, which is that the homicide was in self defense and they feared for their lives. But it's what's referred to as imperfect self defense because you're not literally with a knife to your throat, but you feel that your life is in danger. And this hadn't been tested before outside of domestic violence, so in that sense, it was like a.

Really interesting So it hadn't been used in a child abuse case before.

Really interesting So it hadn't been used in a child abuse case before.

No, and in the nineties, this was just considered a shocking defense. Right. Conversations like this around sexual abuse certainly about sexual abuse between a father and his sons just did not happen in the open. And so when this trial began in nineteen ninety three, it was just a huge case. There was an intense amount of attention. It was broadcast in its entirety, as I said, gavel to gabble as they called it on court TV. And in the opening statements, the lawyers for the Menanda's brothers really get into the sexual abuse.

No, and in the nineties, this was just considered a shocking defense. Right. Conversations like this around sexual abuse certainly about sexual abuse between a father and his sons just did not happen in the open. And so when this trial began in nineteen ninety three, it was just a huge case. There was an intense amount of attention. It was broadcast in its entirety, as I said, gavel to gabble as they called it on court TV. And in the opening statements, the lawyers for the Menanda's brothers really get into the sexual abuse.

Yeah, I was going to ask you what evidence did they provide for the sexual abuse.

Yeah, I was going to ask you what evidence did they provide for the sexual abuse.

There actually was a lot of contemporary US evidence, which obviously you and I now understand is one of the ways that you corroborate sexual abuse. But I think this wasn't like a very well understood field, And as you and I have talked about, there is sort of the sense of how victims are supposed to behave, and so there was a lot of questions around this. But the defense really paints this house as a house of horrors, and there were many witnesses to it, like friends, families, colleagues came forward and supported the brothers version of events. The picture of Jose Menendez was essentially one of a terrifying monster and Kitty as an alcoholic with a drug abuse problem who was also emotionally abusive to the boys and knew about the sexual abuse and did nothing about it.

There actually was a lot of contemporary US evidence, which obviously you and I now understand is one of the ways that you corroborate sexual abuse. But I think this wasn't like a very well understood field, And as you and I have talked about, there is sort of the sense of how victims are supposed to behave, and so there was a lot of questions around this. But the defense really paints this house as a house of horrors, and there were many witnesses to it, like friends, families, colleagues came forward and supported the brothers version of events. The picture of Jose Menendez was essentially one of a terrifying monster and Kitty as an alcoholic with a drug abuse problem who was also emotionally abusive to the boys and knew about the sexual abuse and did nothing about it.

And were they painting the father as physically and sexually abusive?

And were they painting the father as physically and sexually abusive?

What had the people.

What had the people.

Witnessed, Yes, bruises, marx, etc. Okay, so they had not witnessed the sexual abuse, but the boys had told some of their cousins about the sexual abuse contemporaneously, So there was a sense that this had gone on for years. And you know, you would expect that if two people were brutally murdered, their family would want to support them. But for the most part, family came out in support of the brothers because they really had seen that they were treated pretty badly.

Witnessed, Yes, bruises, marx, etc. Okay, so they had not witnessed the sexual abuse, but the boys had told some of their cousins about the sexual abuse contemporaneously, So there was a sense that this had gone on for years. And you know, you would expect that if two people were brutally murdered, their family would want to support them. But for the most part, family came out in support of the brothers because they really had seen that they were treated pretty badly.

Had they also confessed the abuse to the therapist?

Had they also confessed the abuse to the therapist?

No, So that's I think one of the things that's interesting. It seems that they had not confessed the abuse to the therapist, and that was one of the things that was used against them in the trial. But I think that that's one thing that is part of that imperfect victim trope that we talk about. I think for boys, especially young men, talking about your father pretty brutally raping you, the scenes that they end up describing. They both take the stand. They both describe these scenes.

No, So that's I think one of the things that's interesting. It seems that they had not confessed the abuse to the therapist, and that was one of the things that was used against them in the trial. But I think that that's one thing that is part of that imperfect victim trope that we talk about. I think for boys, especially young men, talking about your father pretty brutally raping you, the scenes that they end up describing. They both take the stand. They both describe these scenes.

That started out with him coming in my bedroom and telling me to get on my knees. I was on the bed at the.

That started out with him coming in my bedroom and telling me to get on my knees. I was on the bed at the.

Time, and that was fairly common, wasn't it. Yes?

Time, and that was fairly common, wasn't it. Yes?

What did he tell you about telling people?

What did he tell you about telling people?

He just said that it was our secret. The bad thing is what happened to me if I told anybody? And I told him I never would.

He just said that it was our secret. The bad thing is what happened to me if I told anybody? And I told him I never would.

And when he came back with the knife, what did he do with it?

And when he came back with the knife, what did he do with it?

If anything, he put it on my neck. He put his hand on my head and put the knife on my neck.

If anything, he put it on my neck. He put his hand on my head and put the knife on my neck.

Did he threaten you with it?

Did he threaten you with it?

Yes?

Yes?

What did he say?

What did he say?

He said I should kill you and next time I will.

He said I should kill you and next time I will.

And did you believe him?

And did you believe him?

Yes?

Yes?

Really really disturbing details, like one of the brothers talked about how he ate just an enormous amount of ketchup and always needed lemons nearby. Was it at some point after you were eleven years old that you developed a rather peculiar eating habit.

Really really disturbing details, like one of the brothers talked about how he ate just an enormous amount of ketchup and always needed lemons nearby. Was it at some point after you were eleven years old that you developed a rather peculiar eating habit.

Yes, I used a lot of lemon in my food.

Yes, I used a lot of lemon in my food.

And what do you mean by you? And no one in the family understood why. It was a weird kind of like obsession with lemons, and he testified during the trial that it was because that's what he used to get the taste of his father semen out of his mouth.

And what do you mean by you? And no one in the family understood why. It was a weird kind of like obsession with lemons, and he testified during the trial that it was because that's what he used to get the taste of his father semen out of his mouth.

WHOA, that is a fascinating detail.

WHOA, that is a fascinating detail.

It's a fascinating detail, but it's so upsetting. The details are really specific, and I think also hard to imagine that these details are lies, because what kind of lie is that? That's not a lie you make up? Right, it's so very specific the thing. But the media is not buying it. They are really skeptical of the defense, and from what I can tell, almost the majority of the media coverage at the time is incredibly pro prosecution. A lot of talk of this defense refers to it as the abuse defense or the abuse excuse, and they just are like, this is a lie, and even if it's true, it isn't an excuse for murder, which you know, the lawyers for the brothers weren't arguing that it was an excuse for murder. They were saying that it meant that the murders were actually manslaughter. Right, the way that they should consider this crime was as a manslaughter crime rather than a murder crime. Because of the corroborating evidence of this abuse. Yeah, and by the time the boys testify, it's already a huge, huge circus. And then I think this really dramatic and emotional testimony from the brothers. These intense descriptions of abuse are just not something most people have ever heard in their lives. This is the early nineties. These aren't things that people talk about.

It's a fascinating detail, but it's so upsetting. The details are really specific, and I think also hard to imagine that these details are lies, because what kind of lie is that? That's not a lie you make up? Right, it's so very specific the thing. But the media is not buying it. They are really skeptical of the defense, and from what I can tell, almost the majority of the media coverage at the time is incredibly pro prosecution. A lot of talk of this defense refers to it as the abuse defense or the abuse excuse, and they just are like, this is a lie, and even if it's true, it isn't an excuse for murder, which you know, the lawyers for the brothers weren't arguing that it was an excuse for murder. They were saying that it meant that the murders were actually manslaughter. Right, the way that they should consider this crime was as a manslaughter crime rather than a murder crime. Because of the corroborating evidence of this abuse. Yeah, and by the time the boys testify, it's already a huge, huge circus. And then I think this really dramatic and emotional testimony from the brothers. These intense descriptions of abuse are just not something most people have ever heard in their lives. This is the early nineties. These aren't things that people talk about.

And so to be clear that their testimony is being aired live, right, Yes.

And so to be clear that their testimony is being aired live, right, Yes.

This like incredibly dramatic testimony is ying aired live. Lyle testifies that his father has been sexually abusing him since he was six years old, but that at some point he stopped.

This like incredibly dramatic testimony is ying aired live. Lyle testifies that his father has been sexually abusing him since he was six years old, but that at some point he stopped.

How old were you when this stopped?

How old were you when this stopped?

Eight? When you were about thirteen?

Eight? When you were about thirteen?

Did you think that it might be happening to someone else?

Did you think that it might be happening to someone else?

Yes, sir? And who did you think it was happening to? Eric?

Yes, sir? And who did you think it was happening to? Eric?

And then Eric is crying while he watches Lyle his older brother testify, And then Eric testifies, and he says that the abuse never stopped for him.

And then Eric is crying while he watches Lyle his older brother testify, And then Eric testifies, and he says that the abuse never stopped for him.

I told him that things between dad and I were still happening and that, and he kept asking what I was talking about. Did you tell him what you were telling Finally I told him I told him they were just sexual things, sexual things.

I told him that things between dad and I were still happening and that, and he kept asking what I was talking about. Did you tell him what you were telling Finally I told him I told him they were just sexual things, sexual things.

Yes, And did you tell him anything about any kind of violence that would accompany it, or any kind of threats from your father?

Yes, And did you tell him anything about any kind of violence that would accompany it, or any kind of threats from your father?

Yes?

Yes?

And what did you tell him about violence?

And what did you tell him about violence?

I told him that there were pens and texts that Dad would die, that Dad.

I told him that there were pens and texts that Dad would die, that Dad.

Was sick in me and use, and so he had basically been suffering in silence all this time because his father had been threatening him that if he ever told Lyle, he would murder them both. And that is what Eric and Lyle say actually precipitated the murders. That they began to realize that this was never going to end, that they were terrified of their father. They thought he was going to kill them, and Eric was really terrified that now he told Lyle that they were in danger. And so they say that they confronted their parents and that that is when they learned that their mother had known all along. They had thought that they were protecting her from this information, but that in one of these confrontations between the parents and the boys, it becomes clear that she knew, and that in fact, the parents are not really apologetic, and so again they feel that this really proves that their lives are in danger, and it's really hard to watch this testimony now, Like, I can't explain to you how hard it is to watch with all the distance that we have, and I really don't understand how people couldn't have found it believable. I mean, if these boys were lying, they were incredible acting. Yeah, to think of like an eighteen and twenty one year old boy probably by the time the trial happened, like early twenties, you know, to think of these two boys getting up in front of what they knew was a national televised audience and talking about these issues in the way that they did. Like it. It's really hard to watch it and not have your heartbreak for them. I really have trouble wrapping my head around the way it was viewed at the time. But it just gives you a sense of how poorly this kind of thing was understood.

Was sick in me and use, and so he had basically been suffering in silence all this time because his father had been threatening him that if he ever told Lyle, he would murder them both. And that is what Eric and Lyle say actually precipitated the murders. That they began to realize that this was never going to end, that they were terrified of their father. They thought he was going to kill them, and Eric was really terrified that now he told Lyle that they were in danger. And so they say that they confronted their parents and that that is when they learned that their mother had known all along. They had thought that they were protecting her from this information, but that in one of these confrontations between the parents and the boys, it becomes clear that she knew, and that in fact, the parents are not really apologetic, and so again they feel that this really proves that their lives are in danger, and it's really hard to watch this testimony now, Like, I can't explain to you how hard it is to watch with all the distance that we have, and I really don't understand how people couldn't have found it believable. I mean, if these boys were lying, they were incredible acting. Yeah, to think of like an eighteen and twenty one year old boy probably by the time the trial happened, like early twenties, you know, to think of these two boys getting up in front of what they knew was a national televised audience and talking about these issues in the way that they did. Like it. It's really hard to watch it and not have your heartbreak for them. I really have trouble wrapping my head around the way it was viewed at the time. But it just gives you a sense of how poorly this kind of thing was understood.

Yeah, yeah, wow, So what happens next?

Yeah, yeah, wow, So what happens next?

I want to mention a couple more things, just because they end up being relevant. Later, one of the cousins testified that when Lyle was eight, he told her about the sexual abuse, so that would have been in nineteen seventy six, and that she told Kitty. So there was actual roborating evidence that the mother was aware, mother knew, and there was another cousin that Eric confided in when he was thirteen, so there were some people around them that knew. And again, as I mentioned, the defense team is really trying to go for a manslaughter charge, right. They just want to make sure that the brothers aren't put away for a murder charge, which not only means they'll be in prison for life, but there was a death penalty element to this case. Okay, So they're not even suggesting that the brothers shouldn't be held accountable in some way. They're just saying that this is not a first degree murder. And jury deliberations went on for a month. Wow. One thing to note here is that the way this trial was structured was a little weird. There were two separate juries, but it was one trial, so each brother had his own jury. Oh but the trial was done at the same time, okay. And what is really interesting is that both jury's deadlock and there is a mistrial for both brothers. And I saw this fascinating interview with a female juror who said that on Eric's jury, at least the deliberations broke down entirely on gender lines, that the men really dug in that no man would ever do to his son what these boys were saying Jose Menendez did to them, really, and they wanted to convince.

I want to mention a couple more things, just because they end up being relevant. Later, one of the cousins testified that when Lyle was eight, he told her about the sexual abuse, so that would have been in nineteen seventy six, and that she told Kitty. So there was actual roborating evidence that the mother was aware, mother knew, and there was another cousin that Eric confided in when he was thirteen, so there were some people around them that knew. And again, as I mentioned, the defense team is really trying to go for a manslaughter charge, right. They just want to make sure that the brothers aren't put away for a murder charge, which not only means they'll be in prison for life, but there was a death penalty element to this case. Okay, So they're not even suggesting that the brothers shouldn't be held accountable in some way. They're just saying that this is not a first degree murder. And jury deliberations went on for a month. Wow. One thing to note here is that the way this trial was structured was a little weird. There were two separate juries, but it was one trial, so each brother had his own jury. Oh but the trial was done at the same time, okay. And what is really interesting is that both jury's deadlock and there is a mistrial for both brothers. And I saw this fascinating interview with a female juror who said that on Eric's jury, at least the deliberations broke down entirely on gender lines, that the men really dug in that no man would ever do to his son what these boys were saying Jose Menendez did to them, really, and they wanted to convince.

The women were like yeah, obviously, yeah.

The women were like yeah, obviously, yeah.

And the women believed them because women know that there is a lot of abuse.

And the women believed them because women know that there is a lot of abuse.

In the world.

In the world.

Okay, So mistrial means what exactly?

Okay, So mistrial means what exactly?

So mistrial means that they can be tried again. Often in cases like this, there's like a settlement at this point because the government doesn't want to go through this whole circus again. But that doesn't happen here for reasons that aren't clear. What does happen is that the second trial takes place two years later. And it's worth noting that between the two trials there is the OJ Simpson trial, which is another huge media circus in LA happening at the same time, essentially, and the prosecutors also lose that case. So the judicial system in LA is reeling, and so by the time the boys get back into court for the second trial, there is only one jury, no cameras are allowed, and the new prosecutors ask the judge to limit the amount of testimony.

So mistrial means that they can be tried again. Often in cases like this, there's like a settlement at this point because the government doesn't want to go through this whole circus again. But that doesn't happen here for reasons that aren't clear. What does happen is that the second trial takes place two years later. And it's worth noting that between the two trials there is the OJ Simpson trial, which is another huge media circus in LA happening at the same time, essentially, and the prosecutors also lose that case. So the judicial system in LA is reeling, and so by the time the boys get back into court for the second trial, there is only one jury, no cameras are allowed, and the new prosecutors ask the judge to limit the amount of testimony.

Regarding from the boys.

Regarding from the boys.

Okay, they say the abuse is not relevant and it didn't happen, and the judge essentially agrees, and there's no clear indication of why he made that choice, but it significantly changed the trial. The prosecutors had a real advantage. They went in knowing what the defense strategy would be, whereas they didn't really know the extent of the abuse going into the first trial, and they really focus on the fact that this was a well planned and executed murder, which I don't know how well planned it was, but it is true that they bought guns a couple of days beforehand. You know, there were things that they did, and the judge just kept ruling against the defense on everything. He took manslaughter off the table, which left only first or second degree murder. Leslie Abramson, who was Eric's lawyer who I mentioned, described the second trial as hell. To give you an idea, there were fifty plus defense witnesses for the first trial and half of that for the second. The family members weren't even allowed to testify. So are convicted on first degree murder and luckily they don't get the death penalty and they are sentenced to life in prison without parole.

Okay, they say the abuse is not relevant and it didn't happen, and the judge essentially agrees, and there's no clear indication of why he made that choice, but it significantly changed the trial. The prosecutors had a real advantage. They went in knowing what the defense strategy would be, whereas they didn't really know the extent of the abuse going into the first trial, and they really focus on the fact that this was a well planned and executed murder, which I don't know how well planned it was, but it is true that they bought guns a couple of days beforehand. You know, there were things that they did, and the judge just kept ruling against the defense on everything. He took manslaughter off the table, which left only first or second degree murder. Leslie Abramson, who was Eric's lawyer who I mentioned, described the second trial as hell. To give you an idea, there were fifty plus defense witnesses for the first trial and half of that for the second. The family members weren't even allowed to testify. So are convicted on first degree murder and luckily they don't get the death penalty and they are sentenced to life in prison without parole.

Wow.

Wow.

And that is where they are today.

And that is where they are today.

That's where it's at.

That's where it's at.

Okay, They've been in prison for thirty four years since their convictions. Both brothers have been married, even though California doesn't allow conjugal visits for inmates with life sentences. One of them has been married more than once, I believe, And you know, they have just made the best of their lives in prison. They do a lot of mentoring and peer work in prison. One of them helped design this big mural.

Okay, They've been in prison for thirty four years since their convictions. Both brothers have been married, even though California doesn't allow conjugal visits for inmates with life sentences. One of them has been married more than once, I believe, And you know, they have just made the best of their lives in prison. They do a lot of mentoring and peer work in prison. One of them helped design this big mural.

Have there been like profiles of them from prison over the years.

Have there been like profiles of them from prison over the years.

Yeah, there have been some profiles, and Lyle does interviews. Eric is more media shy. I think Eric's wife has done some press initially when they first got married. But this new interest I think has probably taken even them by surprise. There were a lot of years where they were just sort of making the best of their lives in prison. And it's worth noting that one of them said to a family member at one point, honestly, life in prison is better than the life I had growing up in that house, which really gives you a sense of how scared they were as children in that house. It really does sound like growing up in their house was a brutal way to live.

Yeah, there have been some profiles, and Lyle does interviews. Eric is more media shy. I think Eric's wife has done some press initially when they first got married. But this new interest I think has probably taken even them by surprise. There were a lot of years where they were just sort of making the best of their lives in prison. And it's worth noting that one of them said to a family member at one point, honestly, life in prison is better than the life I had growing up in that house, which really gives you a sense of how scared they were as children in that house. It really does sound like growing up in their house was a brutal way to live.

Okay, so are we with the stands here, like I mean, maybe not like the romantic stands.

Okay, so are we with the stands here, like I mean, maybe not like the romantic stands.

Yeah, definitely not the romantic stands.

Yeah, definitely not the romantic stands.

But hearing you tell this in the light of twenty twenty four makes it sound like the TikTokers are actually onto something.

But hearing you tell this in the light of twenty twenty four makes it sound like the TikTokers are actually onto something.

Yeah, I think they have a point. I have to be honest. Really digging into this case made me wonder how it was possible that this was done in the way that it was. The fact is, we just understand so much more about the psychology of abuse and of victims, and you can sort of understand that if you grew up in a house where you were sexually abused from six years old and physics abused and emotionally abused, the fact that you would be so terrified of your parents that you didn't feel like you could just like get up and walk away. This idea that you could just leave, and why didn't they just do that they were adults, That is something we understand is not so simple, And just like battered wife syndrome, we now have the concept of a battered child syndrome.

Yeah, I think they have a point. I have to be honest. Really digging into this case made me wonder how it was possible that this was done in the way that it was. The fact is, we just understand so much more about the psychology of abuse and of victims, and you can sort of understand that if you grew up in a house where you were sexually abused from six years old and physics abused and emotionally abused, the fact that you would be so terrified of your parents that you didn't feel like you could just like get up and walk away. This idea that you could just leave, and why didn't they just do that they were adults, That is something we understand is not so simple, And just like battered wife syndrome, we now have the concept of a battered child syndrome.

It reminds me a little almost of the Gypsy Rose case as well. Yes, and which TikTok is also obsessed with right.

It reminds me a little almost of the Gypsy Rose case as well. Yes, and which TikTok is also obsessed with right.

Yeah, but where.

Yeah, but where.

Yeah, years and years and years of abuse she then has her boyfriend murder hermel anyway.

Yeah, years and years and years of abuse she then has her boyfriend murder hermel anyway.

Yes, very similar I think in some ways to that case where people said the same thing. That was a case where it was munchilds and biproxy. So the mother pretended she was sick and it turned out she was in a wheelchair but she could walk, and people were like, well, why didn't she just walk away? Which is just really overly simplistic.

Yes, very similar I think in some ways to that case where people said the same thing. That was a case where it was munchilds and biproxy. So the mother pretended she was sick and it turned out she was in a wheelchair but she could walk, and people were like, well, why didn't she just walk away? Which is just really overly simplistic.

Right.

Right.

We develop a relationship with your parent when you're so young and dependent that if that relationship is rooted in this kind of intense sphere, you don't feel like you can just walk oh way. You think they're going to find you and kill you. And honestly, who knows. Jose Menenda's does not come off like a man that you should not be scared of in every depiction of him that comes out during the trial.

We develop a relationship with your parent when you're so young and dependent that if that relationship is rooted in this kind of intense sphere, you don't feel like you can just walk oh way. You think they're going to find you and kill you. And honestly, who knows. Jose Menenda's does not come off like a man that you should not be scared of in every depiction of him that comes out during the trial.

Okay, so what happens now? Have the fans been effective in asking for further scrutiny to the case.

Okay, so what happens now? Have the fans been effective in asking for further scrutiny to the case.

I mean, they've certainly been effective in drawing more attention to the case. Yeah, but the appeals process had pretty much played itself out. But recently there have been two big developments that may actually change the fate of the Menenda's brothers. The first one is a letter was discovered written by Eric to one of the cousins that testified on his behalf, and he had written him this letter just eight months before the crime, in December of eighty eight, okay, And this letter was found by one of their aunts, that cousin's mother after the cousin died. So you know, they've been in prison a long time. One of their cousin passed away and the mother was going through his papers and she finds this letter. And presumably it's a letter that both Eric and the cousin forgot about because it wasn't about the abuse. But in it, Eric very clearly references the abuse. Wow. At one point he writes, I've been trying to avoid Dad, but it's still happening. Andy. It's worse for me now. And then there's another part where he says, every night I stay up thinking that he might come in. I'm afraid he's crazy. He's warned me a hundred times about telling anyone, especially Lyle.

I mean, they've certainly been effective in drawing more attention to the case. Yeah, but the appeals process had pretty much played itself out. But recently there have been two big developments that may actually change the fate of the Menenda's brothers. The first one is a letter was discovered written by Eric to one of the cousins that testified on his behalf, and he had written him this letter just eight months before the crime, in December of eighty eight, okay, And this letter was found by one of their aunts, that cousin's mother after the cousin died. So you know, they've been in prison a long time. One of their cousin passed away and the mother was going through his papers and she finds this letter. And presumably it's a letter that both Eric and the cousin forgot about because it wasn't about the abuse. But in it, Eric very clearly references the abuse. Wow. At one point he writes, I've been trying to avoid Dad, but it's still happening. Andy. It's worse for me now. And then there's another part where he says, every night I stay up thinking that he might come in. I'm afraid he's crazy. He's warned me a hundred times about telling anyone, especially Lyle.

Oh.

Oh.

Wow, this is a piece of very contemporaneous evidence that happened so far before the murders that there's no way that they're just like making it up to cover up this crime. But there's a bigger twist even and this one is wild. At one point, Jose Menendez, who as I said, was a Hollywood executive, was a top executive at RCAA Records, okay. And while he was there, RCAA signed a very popular Puerto Rican boy band from the eighties called Menudo Manudo. It's the band that gave the Ricky Martin. Yes, yes, it was one of the biggest boy bands of all time and RCA signed them for thirty million dollars. And an interesting thing about Menudo is that it is a band that had an age limit, so once the boys hit sixteen, they actually swapped them out so that the boy band stayed forever young.

Wow, this is a piece of very contemporaneous evidence that happened so far before the murders that there's no way that they're just like making it up to cover up this crime. But there's a bigger twist even and this one is wild. At one point, Jose Menendez, who as I said, was a Hollywood executive, was a top executive at RCAA Records, okay. And while he was there, RCAA signed a very popular Puerto Rican boy band from the eighties called Menudo Manudo. It's the band that gave the Ricky Martin. Yes, yes, it was one of the biggest boy bands of all time and RCA signed them for thirty million dollars. And an interesting thing about Menudo is that it is a band that had an age limit, so once the boys hit sixteen, they actually swapped them out so that the boy band stayed forever young.

Oh wow, whoa Okay.

Oh wow, whoa Okay.

So in April of twenty twenty three, so just last year, there is a former member of the band named Roy Roussello, and he comes forward and says that in the nineteen eighties, when he was fourteen or fifteen, the band's manager sent him to go see Jose Menendez, the father of Lyle and Eric Menendez at the family home, and while he was there, he was given a glass of wine which he believes was spiked and Jose Menendez raped him. Oh wow. And he says that there were also other occasions, at least two other times where Jose Menendez sexually abused him.

So in April of twenty twenty three, so just last year, there is a former member of the band named Roy Roussello, and he comes forward and says that in the nineteen eighties, when he was fourteen or fifteen, the band's manager sent him to go see Jose Menendez, the father of Lyle and Eric Menendez at the family home, and while he was there, he was given a glass of wine which he believes was spiked and Jose Menendez raped him. Oh wow. And he says that there were also other occasions, at least two other times where Jose Menendez sexually abused him.

Oh so this is new.

Oh so this is new.

So this is totally new, and it corroborates the boys descriptions of abuse. He came forward as part of a docuseries that you can watch on Peacock called Menendez and Menudo Boys Betrayed and it's actually a fascinating docuseries. I recommend it. It's based on the reporting of two journalists. One is named Robert Rand. He covered the case initially and has become sort of an advocate for the boys over the years. And the other is this woman Nary Inclan, who Robert reaches out to when he realizes that there is this sexual abuse component that he needs to do some additional reporting. On the way Robert Rand thinks to connect these two cases is that he's going through some old notes and he remembers that Jose Menendez's assistant in interviews with him often emphasized how obsessed with Minudo, Jose Menendez had been he would go all the time to their concerts, which was not a thing you know, you usually did when you were like the top executive of RCIA. That he talked about them all the time, that he was kind of fascinated by them. And there have been other allegations of abuse. That manager that ran Manudo, that created Manunda has been accused by other boys in the band of having abused them. So it occurs to Robert Rand, wait a second, maybe there's a connection here.