Dear Movies, I Love YouI Saw What You Did - An Inexplicable Level of Parental Negligence
Millie and Danielle discuss A CLOCKWORK ORANGE (1971) and ORDINARY PEOPLE (1980), they have a lengthy convo on how they like to talk about art, Millie tells a story about watching forbidden films at the neighbor’s house, and they heap praise upon laconic oaf himself, Donald McNichol Sutherland.
To see a full ISWYD movie list, check out our Letterboxd here:
https://letterboxd.com/isawwhatyoudid/films/diary/
Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode. I saw what you did. My name is Millie to Jericho, I'm Daniel Henderson, and we're back with you to talk about films and the love of films and our love of films. What's up, Danielle.
It's it's been a real thinky week. I've been thinking a lot because of our our films. This week put me in a place to do so, and yeah, it's it's, it's it has got some thoughts.
Yeah, oh listen, you know so I'm gonna be like full disclosure right now. You know, we knew this this episode was coming, and when we were like coming up with a theme which which will be revealed shortly, I felt like I felt like, oh, this is such a joyous, fun theme because it's so much about like who we are as people and we get to tell some personal stories and that's always fun. But then I rewatched my film and I essentially spiraled out and I texted Danielle, who has probably the busiest schedule of all my friends right now, like she has literally no time for anybody, let alone my stupid ass, And I was like, I'm freaking out, man, Like you got to call me I got to talk about this movie, you know, for this week, and she was kind enough. We sorted it out eventually, but I was panicked about it.
I know, and look, I always have time for you know that. But also I understand the spiral because even when while I was watching my movie, I was like, whoa, I did not I haven't seen this in a while. For one, because our theme, which we will reveal, will indicate why. But I hadn't seen it in so long. And I think what it got me thinking about because I did the true double feature with yours and mine. I did put my grandma to bed after my movie because I was not about to watch her movie with my grandma.
Oh ma'am.
I mean that motherfucker's got a very good palette. She's got a good palette. But I did not want to talk about it or look at it with her. I did not want to have any conversations. I did not want her to question what was wrong with me. I was like, you gotta go to bed. But I did this, like this true double feature, and it just made me think about something that I think you and I talk about a lot, you know, off the pod, which is like how we watch movies and how we talk about movies. And I think that when you have films like we have this week, which the subject matter is difficult and the visuals are difficult, it makes me spiral and panic a little bit too, because I think there's you know, I know that we have a responsibility to ourselves and to our listeners, and I don't want to be wrong about that, Like I don't want to mess with with expressing how I feel and having it make someone else feel bad or like I didn't say the right thing. But I also feel like what that also made me think of, though, is that I don't know any dudes who do podcasts I think that way. I think it's just a part of being like an empathetic person that we're put in a different place. And I think that because our empathy comes through to our listeners that you know, they they definitely will tell us stuff and tell us how they feel in a way that I don't think a lot of other podcasts get. So I love that and I'm a fan of it, but it's a responsibility. It's a big responsibility, and I never want to I guess what's weird about it? And you know, instead of just dancing around, and I'll just say it. What's weird about it is, you know, you and I are people who have a very specific approach to film and watching, and I think we're open to everything and we can process our own feelings about what we're seeing. But I get nervous sometimes when I'm like, oh wait, because I do this so easily and it comes to me so naturally, I forget that there is a whole visual language that a lot of people just don't ever engage with, and that they're very black and white about things in a way that I'm not. And so that's I think that's where I started to kind of get a little squirrely too.
Yeah, yeah, this is very This has been front of mine, I think for a long time, and I have lots of thoughts about this, and I'm going to try to be as succinct as possible, but you know, no promises. I feel like part of what I love about doing this podcast is that it is attempting to be inclusive, right. We try not to make this super intellectual or you know, hard to grasp, and because of that, I think a lot of people who normally haven't watched a lot of films or don't watch a lot of films, gravitate towards it because it feels not like to you know, film dorks, you know, in their tower pontificating about you know whatever, any kind of like really dense esoteric film stuff.
Right.
But it puts me, I think, And I don't know about you. I don't want to speak for you entirely, but it puts me in this weird position sort of as as a film dork. I'm going to admit it as much as you don't want to, or more or less somebody who has studied film for twenty years and is writes about film and you know, is like a film historian of sorts. I have learned through that, through my experience and through my training, a way to sort of compartmentalize feelings about movies. Right, So it isn't black and white for me, right, right, as you said, And I have to remember to that a lot of people that are listening may not have that level of understanding or patience sometimes for movies and to be able to watch things that don't align with their sensibilities or whatever. And it's hard because I'm trying to approach the podcast in a way that I feel like, Okay, so you know, I could pick all these like really hard to find films and talk about them in these like very dense ways or whatever, but how is that going to be inviting to people? And I think that we've done a pretty good job of making that podcast, But it is this issue that comes back and forth between sort of what our responsibility actually is right right, And like I said, I kind of come to it from this viewpoint where I'm saying, like, well, we're here to kind of give our opinions about film. We didn't really make the films, didn't.
You know.
I don't necessarily think that a film that we bring to the podcast means that we love it or endorse it or something. It's just talking about a movie that we want to talk about in the way that we want.
To talk about it exactly.
And I think that's sometimes that especially now, it's like, yeah, I think I think right now there we're in a moment where I think everybody feels like it's really important to have like a firm side on rings and there's a lot of times where I'm like it's going to be complicated and I don't know what to say. This is gonna be like, this movie this week that I brought to the table is really challenging. I've seen it at three separate times in my life, which I will discuss in just a moment, and you know, there have been different levels every time and how I feel, and you know, I know that there is stuff in this movie that is going to offend people, and this movie has offended people for so long. I mean, this is a very one of the most controversial movies ever made, right, And I just feel like there are times like that that's where the panic comes in. The panic and the and the spiraling come from this idea that maybe I might make somebody watch something that is going to ruin their day.
Right.
But yet at the same time, I'm saying, well, I'm just here to talk about it. I didn't make it, you know, or you know, we're we're sort of not We don't have to promote the film just because we talk about it.
I don't know if that makes any sense, but yeah, I think it's it's it's a it's an endorsement in a way to even discuss it, But it's not an endorsement of we love it, we hate it. But it's an endorsement of we want to talk about it. I think that every movie we pick for this show is just something we want to talk about. And as you listen to all of the episodes that we've we've had so far, we do talk about complicated things or the feelings that the movies give us, which are not always cut and dry, and I think that is that is very important to me that we're always able to say, like, hey, I chose this movie because I think it fit the theme well, and I want to talk about everything about it, whether I hated it, loved it, it made me feel uncomfortable, it made me feel validated. That's what I love about talking to you about films is that I feel like from the beginning of our friendship we've been able to do that and it's something that I really value. But we didn't have a stage before and so I feel like, you know, it's it's our natural inclination because of who we are, like you said, to be inclusive and to be aware and to be responsible. But it also I don't want that to stifle us. I don't want that to make us feel like well, because we are potentially, you know, very caring about our listeners and what we bring to the show that there are just things that we flat out will never talk about, Like I don't want to be stifled in that way because I'm a Gemini and you can't keep me down so well.
And I mean, I don't want to sound too much of a like well that's life, baby, Like You're just gonna have to deal with uncomfortable things and that's just the way it goes. Like I had some like really tough upbringing, but at the same time, it's it's it's this moment where I'm like, well, I know a lot of people have problems with content. They don't want to watch certain films that they think are going to offend them. There's so many things online that will tell you, like, you know, we always talk about IMDb being a good place where if you want to if you really are a type of person that does like doesn't want to go into blind go and blind into a film and you really want to be prepped, especially if it's something that you have sort of heard about being controversial, like a movie like mine. You know, like some of the movies we've talked about in the podcast, there's a place that you know you will literally lay out all of the content for you. There's a website that'll tell you if the animal in the movie dies. There's so many avenues, more than ever than you know, certainly when you and I were growing up, and so, but I also I agree with you. I don't. I feel like with the proper context, you can talk about every movie, like if you, even things that are terrible and fucked up. And I truly believe that, Like I think having a discussion about a film is powerful and it may not be as scary to watch after you've maybe heard somebody talk about it or heard somebody discuss it. Kind of takes the sting out in some of it. So I don't know, And I think the biggest issue really is, I find is when it's not as when a film is like blatantly totally offensive. It's when it's very ambiguous, when there isn't like when when you watch a film and you see that it's controversial in some way and the message is clear unclear or ambivalent or something that's a hard place to be rightly, and that I think is what creates the chatter and the takes and the everything. A lot of times people make art and they don't know what it means or they don't care, and how do you feel about that?
And yeah, you know, and a good A good example too for me is when we talked about the Heiress, and I like, my mind was blown when you said that you've talked to, you know, other film folks and mostly men who felt like that Montgomery clip character really loved her and was really into her. And I'm like, what, like, from my lived experience, in my worldview, it's no question that he was a total shifty motherfucker who was trying to get one over on her. But to have to know that there are like people out there who are apologists for that kind of character, it's still worth time talking about and it's still okay to have that difference. But there are things that you know, we will watch and I think that we even gravitate to that are not as clear cut, and that's because that's what we like about art, and that's what we like about this particular kind of art. And I think it's I think it's okay for us, you know, nearly one hundred episodes in to say that we understand our responsibility and we don't take it lightly. We don't want it to stifle us. But we also you know, want you to have some responsibility as well. So if, like, if you are someone who knows things about yourself, like I will not go into a movie blind because it gives me anxiety, then you know, we want you to do your work too, Like It's part of maybe being an active listener to our podcast is that you know you are able as a listener to say, well, it's not their fault for talking about it, and it's not my fault for not liking it, but I will do some work now now that I know that, like they, they will talk about that I might not always agree with. Disagreement is great. I love a healthy disagreement. I don't like feeling like I can't talk about things because that's just not where I want to be as a person. That's not how I grow as a person. I like being challenged. I like being you know, made to be aware of other people's experiences and thoughts. Again, doesn't mean I always agree with them, but I feel like my growth as a person, and particularly as a person who consumes art, is based in the challenge and based in like, you know, going in blind to things that I'm not sure how I will feel about and processing them in my own way, so I know that, you know, I don't love movies that feature a ton of excessive, inexplicable sexual violence. Do I watch movies like that still sometimes because I didn't know that was going to be in there, and then I have to process it in my own way. So we will, you know. It's kind of the the the general content warning that we give for them, that we're giving for the whole podcast is that, like, we will talk about difficult things sometimes, and hopefully we will talk about them responsibly, and we will always just naturally because of who we are, take different points of view and different experiences into account. But I feel like I know that there have been times where we have felt stifled and where we have felt like in choosing some of the movies or choosing some of our themes, like well, we could never do that. And it's not because it's not it's not because we're just being like egregious and like, you know, this is a straight up snuff film or whatever. But it's just you know, different movies Lord of the Ring, like any movie that you think somebody could have any kind of issue with, it's difficult as a creator to come to a place where you want to be thoughtful, you want to be respectful, but also you want to talk. And that's all I want is I want to make sure that we don't feel like that as much as we have, and that we don't you know that, you know that we're not ever intentionally trying to put our listeners in a weird or bad position. There are tons of content warnings. If there's particular things that you look out for in films as things that you won't ever watch, then just do that work and like have some due diligence, because we do. There are things that we don't talk about because we just don't want to and you know, we each have our own opinions about things that we won't ever watch, and so we don't talk about them. And that's okay. I just don't want to feel like I don't know. I guess there have been moments where I've been made to feel like people are not giving us the benefit of the doubt or really trying to like admonish us or shame us because we have made a decision to talk about something and you know, not really considering that as people we are pretty responsible and pretty caring and pretty open to discussions. So that's all. I just kind of want to remind ourselves, primarily that we can talk about difficult things and that we have the space to do that. And again, in a very male dominated landscape, I don't see people making the comments that we get to men, and I don't see them making the comments that we get to men who talk about film and you know, particularly like specifically. So I think that just because we are carrying people and open people, it doesn't give it shouldn't be licensed for people to make us feel like shit, he knows, because we're open to hearing everyone. You know, I think a lot of dudes and a lot of people who do have film podcasts like shut that shit down right away by being like fuck you way to Like, we don't want to be that, and we can't be that because it's not who we are. But I just don't want the open heartedness that we come to in this podcast to be like, well, we can just tell these motherfuckers every goddamn thought on our head, that we can tell these motherfuckers exactly how they fucked the fuck up for me personally, you know, we don't want to do that, but we also don't want to be stifled, Like I just I don't want to be stifled.
Yeah, I completely agree, obviously. You know, I keep going back to I mean, this is again I just told I just told everybody. I was like, I'm gonna not be so esoteric, but I am gonna pull some fucking film theory out. I mean, I think images are seductive by nature. You know, film is an inherently glamorous medium. It just is. And that's the hard part is that if you're a filmmaker out there trying to tell this like controversial, fucked up story, you know, there are times where that will seem glamorous because of the nature of the cinema. But because of the nature of film, you're watching images, you know, a lot of times if you're in the movie theater, there as tall as a building, you know exactly, you know, So it's it becomes very immediate and personal to us when we're watching it. And so I think that's where it comes from, is this. You know, it's hard to not be like sensitive when you're watching films. Yeah, and it's hard to not feel like if you're watching something you really don't like to feel like overwhelmed by it because of that. But like I said, I have to remind myself that not everybody has this training and this distance and this stuff that I've developed over the years, you know, And like I said, not to get into this like art appreciation one oh one lecture, but I'm just saying that, like, I have to remember that in an effort to bring in people who are maybe new to film and who are you know, not really you know, we get emails a lot from people that say that they're new to film and they never really watched movies before that, and we love that. We love that. Yeah, but it is a challenge sometimes to remind myself like that not everybody is this hard ass film bit who's been in these streets forever watching these terribly controversial films. I mean, it's it's I have to remember, like not everybody saw Cannibal Holocaust alone on Valentine's Day.
I mean they should. No, as far as I'm concerned, everyone should try it at least once. Yes, yes, and it is and it is true like that is it is a responsibility that we take seriously and that we will take on. And it hurts it, it does hurt my feelings. I think if anything's bound to hurt my feelings, it's when it's when someone in my life or you know, who's consuming any of the art I make. If somebody says like you know, oh I thought you were better than this, or like you know, something along those lines, like I just it hurts my feelings to think like, oh, well, either you thought I was you think I'm a piece of shit now, or you thought I was a person who didn't have the intellectual capability to process something differently than you like. It's just not either way. It's just not a good thing to hear or feel. And I don't think that I don't see us continuing on with this if we constantly feel like either one our feelings are getting hurt or two we can't say we want to actually say, like podcasting is a vocal medium, duh, And if we do make egregious mistakes or outright mistakes, we apologize. I don't want to have to come to this podcast apologetically in anticipation of somebody might not like what I have to say. I think it's a factor of being a person in the world that you can assume people might not like what you have to say, and that's all I think. We just, you know, we want to be we want to have fun with you, and I think that that part of that fun is that we are smart and cool people, and you know, just the reminder of like how we work will maybe help some people who are either new to the podcast or new to films and new to all of this. We like the inclusiveness that we have fostered. It was intentional when we set out to do this podcast. We could very easily have done one of the let's talk for five hours about Kubrick podcasts, but you and I both I mean, I think we could have done it for like two episodes, but you and I both kind of decided to even decided to create this and do this because we want to be inclusive and accessible. So it's important to us that we remain so, and we just kind of want the same respect and turn that your inclusivity of us and your thoughtfulness of us is you know, in doing that, that you're just reminded that we're we're whole, entire ass people and that we are both very smart and we are both you know, thinking about all the things you're thinking about, but possibly different and it's in a different way and it's okay. But yeah, I think you know, when I look back at, you know, the things that we edit out and cut out, and it's not like we have a whole like filth reel sitting out there where it's like, oh my god, these two are just being offensive for the fuck of it. That's not it at all. It's just that, you know, when we pick movies, it's because we are making a podcast for us that we want to talk about these movies. And I think it's a joy that we're able to talk about them creatively and from a different lens. And sometimes that is for you and sometimes it's not, And it's okay. It's also okay to me, even in the the effort of trying to be as inclusive as possible and as accessible as possible, it's still okay for me. If we're not for everyone, like, that's fine.
Yeah, I mean your mileage bay vary with every fucking thing out there. Like it's it's that thing where I'm like, Okay, some people think we're we're you know, picking hard films, and then other people think we don't go hard enough. It's it, you don't know every everything is different. We're just doing what we want to do to the best of our abilities. We hope that you appreciate and are on the ride with us. We would love it if you were. I like you said earlier, I feel like we're doing a good job of keeping you guys aware of like the content and the trigger warnings and everything like that, because quite frankly, there's a lot of film podcasts that don't give a fuck about that at all. Hell yeah, hell yeah.
They're like, fucking deal with it.
Yeah, They're like, there's we don't give a shit if there's forty five dildos in this scene.
Like I will always give a warning for more than three dildos.
Well, we have this dildo meter back here that we have we need to dust off because it's we had.
A custom made so we might as well use it. But yeah, like I exactly like I think, and that something else that comes up for me a lot and that you know, I don't know, and maybe this is something we can just one day ask people directly or find out a way to kind of pull how people are feeling. I don't know always because I'm not as easily I'm not offended by a lot of things. So I don't know what will be offensive to people, and I think it's a slippery slope sometimes of trying to guess what will be offensive to people. Yes, and so I don't know. I just I kind of long, a long, long, long time ago, before podcast even existed, I decided that I did not want to live my life in a way that felt like I couldn't talk about the things I want to talk about, and I didn't want to live my life in a way that made me feel small and shut down. And so in everything I do in life, I carry forth a lot of kindness and generosity and love, and I want to be able to continue to do that. When I talk about films, you know, I'm even in I don't know. In the the job I have right now, which we've talked about a little bit, I hear from so many people all the time that like, oh wow, like I've never met a showrunner who was nice or who was thoughtful, or who was this or who was that? And I'm like, well, it's because I I don't feel the need to replicate the behaviors that I've seen in order to get the job done. And I think we bring that same attitude to the podcast, Like, I don't feel the need to replicate like a fucking Andrew Dice Clay approach to things to get people to listen to us or hear us or like us. You know, I don't want to do that in any part of my life, but it helps me to make art and to be creative if I know that that we're being given that benefit of the doubt. Yeah, doesn't mean you'll like what we say or agreeve with us, but that you're not like personally trying to insult us as human beings because you don't like the way we approach something.
Yeah. I mean, there have been so many times where I thought, like when we did that rear Window episode and I talked about a scenario in which Jimmy Stewart's boner cracked his body cast in half. I thought I was going to be excommunicated from every community that I believed to.
Oh don't even I mean, how hard did I go on Gregory Peck thinking, Oh, Grandma's and his family and relatives and the movie industry at large is going to forever excommunicate me. Yeah, well, this is the other thing I think that our comedy sensibilities might not be for everyone, and that's fine with me. Yes, I again learned that a long time ago. My family stopped laughing at my ass when I was seven years old. They're like, you are not funny. That is annoying, and I was like, all right, all right, bye, I'll find other people like. That's how I made friends and learned how to be a person. Is like Mike, comedy is what I find funny is not for everyone. And that's okay because I'm not laughing at like the horror of the human condition, or I try not to laugh at the horror of the human condition when it doesn't serve me or when it makes someone feel bad. I don't know. This is just it's a lot of words to say, like we ain't bad. It's okay if you don't want to watch the movies. Don't make us feel bad for choosing them.
Well, and just and just know that, like you know, movies are, they contain multitudes. And like I said, if you truly have you know, thoughts and feelings about watching things blind, plenty of places on the Internet that will tell you exactly what you need to know about a movie before you watch it. Just go to letterbox. You can hear like every person on planet Earth pontificate on every aspect of film. It's it's out there for you. The information is out there in a way that it wasn't for me, probably for you too. We're in a true age of information. Uh So if for some reason we don't, you know, bring it up, it's not because we're being insensitive or that we didn't know, right, you know, so right, that's that I listen. Thank you for talking this out with me, Danielle, Thank you guys for listening, just of.
Course, and maybe maybe it'll just behoove us. Like we'll throw a couple of links in our link tree for like, if you here are places you can go if you want to learn about movies before you watch them. That's okay, m h, I could throw a link up in a link tree.
Yeah. I think one of them is does the doogdie dot Com? I think that's isn't that the website?
Yeah?
Very helpful, very help very helpful. Well listen, now that we've like psyched you guys up for this episode.
Our listeners were like, the fuck is going on here? Everyone is fast forwarded to this point. They're like, we do not care. No, I'm kidding. I think this all kind of became more more clear for us and more evident for us, and brought up more feelings for us when we picked these movies. Like, I think we've both been feeling like on edge since we even picked this theme and these films. So it's not surprising to me that we both had to talk it out this week, like at all.
Yeah, I know. And it's like, I don't think we came in with this intention to We thought it was just going to be more freewheeling than it actually became, and then it accidentally started making us think. So that do happen Sometimes Sometimes.
It be like that and we hate it every time.
I know. Well, okay, so let's not let's just give them the theme, tell them what the theme is this week.
Yeah, the theme which will explain so much of what we just said. Our theme this week is I was way too young for this.
Yeah.
Now, you you have famously told us already in this podcast how you first came to your film.
Oh, to remind people, Sure, I listen, I'm on record saying this many and many places, So I apologize if you've heard this story from me before. But Essentially, when I was eight years old, I watched my movie which will be revealed in just a second, but it it was totally a turning point in my life at that young age because I had I kind of don't even remember watching movies before this movie, if that makes sense, Like, yeah, it does. It's like a before Christ after Christ scenario for me, like couldn't couldn't tell you. I mean, I think I watched ET like when it kept on DHS, but I don't actually remember like this movie. I remember. This is like the first movie that I remember watching and processing. And essentially the story is I was over at the neighbor's house at the time. Their stepdad was in the Navy, and if you guys have navy dads or like a military brat, you will know that navy dads go out on the ship for months at a time. And so there were a lot of times where myself in my own family, but also at the neighbor's house, were totally unsupervised.
Yea.
And this was I think inherent to the era which we sort of talked about a little bit with Leida when she was on our episode a while back. And so we were just out in the in the base. It wasn't really a basement. I think it's called a den. It's like a dim it's not a basement. It's like but it's below the living room. That makes sense. And their stepdad had walls and walls of like VHS tapes that he had recorded with handwritten labels, and we just looked at the tape and put it in and that is what happened. And we sat through this movie and it broke my brain. It fucking destroyed me. I mean, part of I think it says a lot about me that this was my first movie, because then later I became, you know, a programmer of like cult movies, and I wrote a book about cult movies and stuff. So I feel like, Okay, this had to have been the moment where something activated for me.
Yeah, it is, And we will talk about that when we talk about your film, because I have questions for sure about how it affected you, how it landed on you, like all of that, and I think that it's it's again. It was indicative of a time that we had so much time to be on supervised that we could discover things for better and worse that would affect us deeply. For years to come, and my film is definitely one of those for me. I think I saw it twice in my younger life, and both times I was too young for it. Yeah, and it's strange because it doesn't seem like a movie that would have that effect, but I think, and I'll get into it, but I think I was just too young both times for very different reasons. And it's it's pivotal. That kind of shit is pivotal because you realize a couple of things. I think I realized that one art could look different, that movies were not just like the family movies that I always watched that were made for kids and made to make us feel good or whatever. It opened my eyes to a world of oh wait, art exists, and it's not always pretty or fun. But it also I think influenced me in a weird way, which we'll talk about, Like there's there's a real like that line in high fidelity what came first? The music or the misery? The music or the madness? And I feel like that about a lot of movies that I've seen, like what came first? That I had a horribly depressing childhood, or that I watched a lot of horribly depressing movies that impacted my view of the world. Yeah, so I don't know, man, like this this movie has all My movie has always stuck with me in a way that made me question that like if I had not seen this movie with certain things have been implanted in my brain and your movie I saw for the first time when I was like sixteen, I still think I was too young for I'm forty five. I still think I'm too young for it. Like, oh, your movie fucked me all the way up, no matter when I saw it, like it still fucks me all the way.
Up, one hundred fucking percent. And I will say to you for your film, I was really excited that you brought this to the table because I'm a huge fan of movie. I even have a shirt I have. I don't know if everybody any or anybody knows Built by Wendy, the company that made all those like cool clothes in the nineties and two thousands, but she she used to make a shirt of your film, and I have it somewhere. I have to find it.
But Built by Wendy is the one who made my my slapshot T shirt exactly exactly.
We should try to get hurt on the podcast, and that would be so fun. But the weirdest thing about your movie and this is like, this is something I've seen your movie several times obviously, but then it really hit me this time when I rewatched it. It's like it's got this like backdoor quality to it where you're like, oh, this seems like it's gonna be this like tea. It almost feels like an after school special. But then it gets really fucking serious, so bleak yes. And then I'm like, oh, I feel like there's probably a lot of people like you that came to that movie thinking, Oh, I'm just gonna watch like these cool you know, these teenagers doing teenage stuff, and then you're like, oh, wait a minute, it's like this whole other thing, like wow.
And I have to say, in general, and with both of our films, I think that's also where I learn to appreciate that quality. I like a movie that surprises me and that will have a twist or a turn or I go in thinking one way and I leave feeling like, oh my god, Like I like that quality and I seek it out in a lot of movies that it's not what you thought it was going to be and it'll make you think about the human condition in a different way or at all. I love those those kinds of movies, and I think it starts with this.
Absolutely agree. If you want evidence of this, please listen to our episode with border that and listen. It may sounded like I was traumatized by that, and yes I was, But at the same time, I mean, what an amazing experience to be rattled by a film. You know, as somebody who has watched so many movies and has worked in, you know, this weird fucking area of filmdom for so long, I'm like, oh, I'm still fucking like shocked my movies. That's pretty yes, awesome, you know, yes.
It is why I wear it like a weird badge of honor. When you're like, I have been rocked to my core and I'm like, great, I found something that made this old timer a little bit freaked out. And what was the last time that happened. This is someone who programs John Waters movies for goddamn living, and I freaked her out, Like yay us.
Yes, congratulations, you didn't.
But I love that for you, like as a film watcher and as someone who is in my eyes, a film historian, someone who truly loves movies. I love that you can still have that experience.
Yeah, it's yeah, it's fun. Despite all of my like consternation in the moment when we're recording, I truly I was actually thinking the other day I should watch Border again. Let's give that another fucking spin. You know, yes, I know, No, oh.
My, I love I love that more than you know, especially because you you instagram messaged me a picture when you said just one word border and it.
Was a picture I'm a heavily pregnant woman standing in profile on a beach and there was like a little baby's arm coming out like there was there was clearly a kid like behind her or next to her, but the way the picture was shot, you couldn't see the kid. You only saw the arm, and you were like, one word border, and I'm like, I have ruined this motherfucker's life. It looked like the arm was coming right out of the crouch.
Oh my god, that was a private joke.
No, I'm kidding, but I love I love the notion of you watching Border again.
Yeah, I listen. I don't know. I feel like I won't probably watch Hereditary again, but i'd get born on another spin.
You don't want to see Tony Collett's song her Own Head Off again.
You know, there's a lot of head trauma in that movie that I just can't. I can't, you know, And like listen, it's not not all the time that I would rewatch something like Border, but I really feel like it. I need to understand it a little bit more and I want to. And you know, I mean so much of doing this podcast too, is just like we're just chugging through the movies because it's like we're just doing the podcast every week and I watch so many fucking movies like ever for all of my jobs that I'm just like sometimes I'm just like, all right, what's next? What's next? So for me, it feels like Border needs to come back again, make make a reappearance. So you might be getting some more texts.
Hell yeah, look, come come visit. We'll watch it. It'll be great. But yeah, I feel the same way, Like I like, I like that, you know again, like as someone who likes to be challenged by films, who likes to watch things at different points in my life, like I'm always down for that, and I think that, you know, for this week in particular. I'm really happy that we are going to get to talk about about these movies because I've always wanted to and you're a first and I don't know if you just want to get into it.
Yeah, we're just going to get into it. So, okay, my movie for the theme I was way too young for this is a movie that was made in nineteen seventy one. Screenplay is by Stanley Kubrick, based on a novel of the same name by Anthony Burgess, directed by Stanley Kubrick. Of course, it's called a Clockwork Orange.
Oh it was gorgeousness and gorgeousity made flash.
Okay, so well you know we were been dancing around this for the past thirty so minutes. So here's the thing. So I've seen this movie three times in my life, all at different points. Like I mentioned, once when I was eight years old. I just discussed that, once as a team major when I was in high school, and then once a week ago as a woman in her forties. So that's those are the three times. Okay. So I'm going to try to talk about it first as I watched it as a child, because I feel like that is a completely different sensory experience than it was when I watched it a week ago, obviously, but like for me, a clockwork Orange is almost if you think about it, it's kind of like the perfect movie for a kid to accidentally watch and be traumatized by what it cares abothing. Well, right, because here's what I think, And this is coming from my eight year old mind, because obviously I have experience first hand experience with this, Okay, So I think it's not just the era that it was made. So like, you know, we talked about this in the zard Oss episode seventies film. They were really trying it. Oh yeah, So there's this countercultural vibe that kind of goes through this film, right. But then also Kubrick can't and I that this is a part of his like visual style. You know, it's bright, it's modern. There's wild set pieces, wild costumes, there's pop art everywhere. We'll get to that in a second. The lead character of this film speaks in a slang, right, and it sounds like a secret language, and it kind of was a secret language. I mean, it's called mad sad is how what it was called. But it was apparently written in the original book that Anthony Bailey.
Yeah, that's the question I have too, is like I never read the book. Me neither, so I don't know how loyal this was to the film was to the book. But yeah, it was a whole new language.
Yeah, and it was supposed to have been sort of a mix between like cockne rhyming meets Russian, like I think the term nad set is a Russian word. H But yeah, So there's all this stuff going on with this film. There's some really goofy comedic moments in it. So it's what I'm saying is that there's moments where I feel like, well, for an eight year old, you know, yeah, maybe as a kid, you're watching this thing and there's all these like bright colors and funny, weird people screaming and stuff, and you're and but you're like, Okay, I can see why I turned it on, right, right, But also all of this is baked inside this unbelievably violent and sexual story, which was the part that horrified me and changed my life forever.
Okay, did you watch the whole movie the first time you watched it? Uh?
Yes, oh yes, oh my hand. I didn't mention this in the beginning, but so we sat and watched the whole thing, which I think it's a two hour over two hour movie. Yeah, I don't know why nobody came down in two hours to be like, what do you know?
Again, the level of negligence is so hard to explain to the modern generation. Hours would go by before anyone would think they're like, what are they doing down there? You could have stabbed someone in the goddamn face Bouceemi style, yeah, and nobody would find you for two hours.
So it's this thing where I'm like, okay, nobody checked on us. But then also too, like I talked about this, I think maybe on a bonus where I said we actually forgot what it was called, and I thought I personally thought it was called Strawberry Alarm Clock, which is actually not a movie. It's a band from the sixties.
It's my favorite detail.
I know what I was like, you know, oh, I watched it, and I think I carry that out like maybe to middle school, where I was like, oh, I watched this movie when I was a called Strawberry Alarm Clock, and they're like, what the fuck are you talking about? And somebody, some dude probably actually it's called a clockwork orange and you got.
That wrong, and then he like grew a pair of glasses on his face and a goatee. It just like sprouted as you were talking.
Yes, so I'm sure I was corrected by a man, But listen.
I mean that's my other question though, is like, okay, so you watched the whole thing. My other, my true, other question that I'm just like dying to know is how were you able to even process what you were what you were seeing? Like? Did you know what anatomy looked like? Did you know what violence was like? What were you processing or able to process as you watched.
Pretty much nothing? I mean, I I think I had seen boobs on TV before because another phenomenon when we were growing up was the Playboy channel that would come in crinkly on the cable. So yep, every kid I knew had seen that. So I'm pretty sure I knew what boobs were well.
And as we discussed in a previous episode, like boobs were not, boobs are everywhere in the eighties, like every frontal female nudity was all over the place.
One hundred definitely had not seen a dick or of any kind. Maybe maybe an art. Maybe art, I don't know, but like not we if that's weird to say, I'll cut it.
You know, no it's not, because that's Look, this is what we're talking about, Like there are you go to a museum, your parents can't shield you from the whole wing of the museum where you might see a dick in a picture or on a statue.
Right, Yeah, and it's listen. I I a fear. Another fear that I spiraled out about when doing this research about the movie was this idea that people were going to think that you know, there were all these monstrous parents, negligent, monstrous parents around while their children were being traumatized. I could I will say for me, it was not that, like these weren't bad parents, They just were doing the best they could. And also it was a different fucking time.
So well, also, this is this is a good point, Like the age that you're talking about is when kids start to explore, Like, no matter how hemmed in you try to make your life so your kids never see anything bad, They're gonna see it. They're gonna seek out some shit. They're gonna meet one friend who's like the porn in the woods friend.
Yeah, and they're.
Gonna find out this shit. So it has nothing to do with the types of parenting. Even though the neglect was astounding in the eighties, it was a lot of people doing the best they could. It was a lot of moms going back to the workforce for the first time. On mass it was a lot of you know, dad's being a way and like growing up with grandparents and like, it was just a shift that allowed that natural curiosity that kids have to just kind of flourish a little bit.
Oh yeah, And when I I mean, you know, I use the term traumatized in the sense that it was the images were traumatic when I saw them, But I don't feel like I I am insatiably curious about things. Maybe it's two a fault. I'm a total cure, is George. I am literally followed off of the windowsill, Like anytime I want to look out, I want to see, I want to see and do it. So it's that thing where if it if it hadn't happened at eight, it would have happened in some other movie in some other time, it just would totally. So there's that. But it is just a funny circumstance to have watched this movie so young. But here's the thing, though, I like, we gotta fast forward to high school, because so that happened when I was eight years old, and it was very like, oh my god, I have no concept of what this is, but I'm watching images and I know that I'm scared, and I'm I'm also like sort of you know, it's it's titillating, it's uh weird, uh, and all this stuff. So all these things are happening, and then fast forward to high school, where everybody that I knew loved this movie.
Absolutely and the weirdest possible. That's why I saw it when I when I did is because somebody in my life, when am I my friends, was like, this is a movie we have to see. You're gonna fucking shit, You're gonna love it, and I'm like, what's it about. I can't tell you. It's so weird. And because I think we were at a point where, again, when you're a teenager, you're looking for the countercultural thing, you're looking for the you are looking to be freaked out. A lot of the time, you are looking to be tillated and excited and like doing something that's taboo. So if you hear about this controversial movie, you are going to seek it out nine times out of ten, one hundred percent.
I mean, first of all, I mean sometimes I have to remind younger people that I'm friends with, like this was an era where like the punk kids wore like Charles Manson T shirts and fucking like I remember going through like horror movie magazines and skateboard magazines, you know, all these like places downtown where you would go and shop for like, you know, cool stuff, you know, Doc Martin's and you know, clothes. They T shirts were like Jehn Wayne Gacy and Charles Manson, you know, clockwork oarngs. It was just like this thing where like there were like no stakes back then. Kids just wanted they just wanted to be provocative and they wanted to rebel, and it was just that was it. That was really it. There was no like big thought behind it. It was just fucking like, yeah, this guy's a fucking badass. Yeah he's weird and crazy, you know, and I'm just like, Okay, that's it. That's all that people wanted at that time.
That is all that and the more the way to be provocative in the nineties and in the world without the Internet was by word of mouth, like finding out what was weird, seeing what was weird, going to these kinds of you know, dens of iniquity of society and picking and choosing what you think would weird people out the most. And it was a very it was a very standoffish time. Like I think it was a type of fashion, a type of listening, a type of watching that made it clear to people that you didn't care about their opinion, you didn't want it, you didn't want to be It wasn't even about being seen as much. It was more about like get away from me. Like there was no bigger sign of don't fucking talk to me, get the fuck away from me than like I'm a fourteen year old and a clockwork orange shirt.
Oh yeah. And like here's the ironic part about all this too, It's like it got it was so prevalent that it kind of got played out a little bit for me where suddenly now I would go see like a SKA band, or I'd go to like britpop night and it's just be like, you know, these guys wearing the shirts or they would maybe sometimes be wearing like the bowler hat and the eyelashes and stuff, and I'd just be like, man, this is dorky, like what is going on with this? And then everybody dressed like the drugs for Halloween and I just was like, this is getting a little played out for me, you.
Know, like absolutely, it's weird, very weird how that happens. We're like, this was once the most provocative thing I've ever seen in my life, and now I'm sick of it and it seems boring and weird.
Yeah, oh no, I know, it's so crazy how that happens. But then here's the thing. So that was high school. Rewatched it in high school with all my dumb friends and we were like, yeah, cool whatever. Uh then I got played out. Then I have not seen it since. I just and I think it was that I was informed by that high school thing where I was like, yeah, okay, that's a real like weird, crazy movie and all you're so you're such an edge lord, you know whatever, like you love it, but then you know, I don't know. And then then I started thinking, well, like maybe this, you know, needs a I need to watch it again because now I'm a fucking grown ass woman and I want to see it again, and I gotta tell you, I mean, I I felt unpleasant when watching it. I had a bad sleep. I texted you and I messaged you and Casey Casey are a poor producer has to like sit through us having you know, breakdowns, and was just basically like, I don't know, this movie is so violent and insane and I don't really know what I think of it. But here's the thing. All that, all that, having said that is age. That is age for me. For me, it's age because I gotta say, there's a lot a lot of weird movies, cult stuff, provocative stuff that I used to love in my teen ears that I just can't watch for various reasons. And I kind of think of it. I know, I joked about that like Hannibal Holocaust thing, but like I kind of think of it as like it's kind of like aging into lactose intolerance or something. It's like you're like a kid and you're running around drinking milk with every meal, and then all of a sudden, it's like you have one spoonful of ice cream and you're just like instant diarrhea. That's how I feel about some of these movies where I'm just like, oh, I used to love it, and now I can't. I just can't stomach it. It's not what's going on. I fail you.
And I think that it's age in a way that like you have now spent so many years being part of the world and not just observing the world, that some of that shit is just tiring, where you're like, I cannot engage with this shit, knowing what the world is like and what my world is like day to day, I cannot give time or credence to this shit anymore.
Yeah, And it's and it's true that when you're a young person, it just means more. There's just you just want it. I wanted so badly to affiliate with rebellion and weird things. I wanted to be so weird. I mean, my parents were the most boring people on the planet. I love them, but they were boring, and so I was like, you know, it's kind of like that pat Olswalt joke that he tells on one of his albums about how he had these boring government employee parents and it made him want to go out there and like worship Satan. That's kind of the way it was for me, where I was like, you know, bring it, Like I had a very like, you know, my parents were not into movies, they weren't into art or culture, and it just forced me to go out there and just be like, what's the weirdest thing out there? I need to be around it?
And so absolutely, and then again growing up and realizing like the true rebellion for me as an adult is not in how weird I can get, or because everyone feels weird every day when you're a fucking adult, So that's no longer the rebellion. The rebellion for me is like, in spite of all the bullshit we live with, can I still find peace? Can I still be yes.
Like a good happy person?
That's real rebellion. It's like that I'm not dead inside.
Yeah, Or like canceling all your meetings so you could just sleep all day, that's like the billion at this point, but it's you know, but here's the thing. So having said all that, now I've got this like arc of like my life where I've watched this movie three times, but like there's also the task of like trying to figure out what this movie is ultimately about. Two yes, and I just have to say, if you if you're coming to this podcast to find that out. I got No, there are no easy answers when it comes to what this movie is trying to do or say. We don't have enough time to talk about it, at least I don't. And I've already even said that to you guys. I was like, listen, if we have this, does this have the spillover in a bonus episode? And so be it. But like I have so many thoughts. It's too much. It's too much for you guys to handle. I'll just say it.
And also it's too much too again, as we talked about earlier in the episode, it's almost not the point of this is to figure out what it's about, and that's not the conversation we're having about it right now.
Yeah, I mean I was. When I was doing research for the movie, I was I went to read with Pauline Kale to you know, very famous film critic what she had a very famous review of a Clackork Orange, and she basically called it more or less, she called it kind of irresponsible. And she did this thing to which I kind of love. She basically called Kubrick like she was basically like called him out for being that kind of guy that's like everybody worships him as this like great intellectual but then he made this like kind of hollow, violent film and it sides with the bad guy, and she just wasn't down for that, and you know, so she she hated it. And then you know, Roger Ebert hated it too. I mean, there's a lot of his review back in the day when it came out was he called it a He wrote that it's an ideological mess, a paranoid right wing fantasy masquerading as an as an Orwellian warning.
Damn.
So yo, they fucking hated it. But again, this is they had been writing about this film in the seventies when it came out. But I gotta tell you if you can still go on the internet to find people talking about a clock record. In fact, I was doing a lot of a lot of that, like modern critics writing about it. And I don't know if you guys know Scott Tobias, he's another film critic, but he said it really simply in the Guardian and he just said, if this movie was released today, it would be a three mile island level event for the take industry, which is exactly my feelings like to.
Oh god, I love that so much.
Oh yeah, it's listen. You know, I'll just do a little bit of a synopsis just to like orient to what we're even talking about. But it's like the movie is centered around this character named Alex, and he is played by Malcolm McDowell, the actor Malcolm McDowell. And you know, we did that episode about prep school a long time ago, and I talked about my movie was If Lindsay Anderson's IF, and I talked about in that episode how basically Kubrick cast Malcolm McDowell because he saw him an IF, right, And essentially Alex is that like if you take the character that he played an IF, he's kind of like this boyish troublemaker. It's it gets cranked up to like seventy five. That's what a cockwork orange is. And it's essentially he's this young guy living in this kind of like future future Britain, like futuristic Britain, and he's doing the thing. He's skipping school. He sneaks out at night with his buddies, who he calls drugs. They're called drugs, and they participate in this thing called ultra violence, which is ultra violent. It's very nasty. They fight with other gangs. At the very beginning of the movie. They basically break an enter into a writer's house. It's a it's a man and his wife, and they basically fucking beat and rape them all while Alex is singing singing in the rain. Pretty gnarly, gotta say. And that's the scene actually that gets referenced a lot. Is that singing in the rain scene, which is Marley does that to say it. But you know, Alex is the leader of this gang, but at the same time, like all of his friends are kind of like starting to question his authority a little bit. And then one night they decides to like break into this lady's house where she's doing yoga with like a bunch of her cats, and Alex steals this giant penis sculpture that she has in her house and basically kills her with it, which is the That is the thing that I remembered from childhood. When I was eight and I saw that movie, I was like.
Of course you would, even if you, yeah, you don't know what a dick is like that is a shocking scene.
Shocking and so the craziest part is that happens and he tries to leave, but then his his buddies basically smash a bottle on his face and he's injured, and then the cops show up and he ends up getting arrested and he goes to jail. So then it becomes this like second half of the film where it sort of has tinges of Doctor Strangelove, where like Alex goes to the prison and like every person that he deals with in the prison is like a loud moron and a fucking uniform, like he's you know, it's very to me, it seems very Doctor Strangelove. But then he gets over, you know, the course of a couple of years, he gets offered the chance to be this test subject for a project that these doctors are working on called the Ludovico Technique. Okay, and it's supposed to be this kind of like a version therapy thing to cure violent people like Alex essentially, But he gets transferred to the treatment facility and he thinks it's gonna be this like get out of jail free card, but then they end up like shooting him up with medicine every morning, and then they bring him in front of all these violent movies where they force his eyelids open with these like crank metal crank lever things.
Okay, this, this eyeball clamp scene, I will never I was never and will never be prepared for that in my life.
That freaked me the fuck out.
Absence kid like, and it looks so gnarly and it's so visceral, and it's so close. Yeah, and it's like even in the scene of what's about to happen and him being shown these violent images and on film, and one of the films is like made specifically to look like him and his friends dressed up and like the eyeball clamping scene is truly viscerally disgusting to me to this day, Almost as disgusting as the idea of a grown adult just drinking a glass of milk. I'm sorry, but that makes me sick.
Don't even get me started on this milk shit. I mean, that's me. It was like, they go to the Corova Milk Bar, isn't that what it's called, and they and they drink this milk that literally comes from this like faucet out of a woman's nipple. I mean, it's so insane and the milk has drug sent it or something. But I'm like, yeah, the whole milk scenario really makes me want to bar But it's you know, when I watched this again, I was like, A, I can't believe. Like it's like they wouldn't that would be cgi at this point, Like the eyelid opening thing would be there's no way they would actually clamp an actor's eyelids open like that. And then they had this guy. This is also another very famous scene. You've probably seen stills of it. It's been parodied. I mean, I mean it's kind of like the basis for a lot of horror at this point. But it's like there's a doctor that comes in and puts like eye drops in his eyes to like lubricate them, which apparently actually needed to happen. Like yeah for me, I's McDowell the actor, right.
Yeah, absolutely, it's fucking vile. And there's also this again, like the image that stays with me and has stayed with me since I first saw it as a teenager, was when he's in that chair and he's strapped in, like he is strapped down like straight jacket stuf with straps like seat belt straps over that his eyes are clamped open. He's got a big thing around his head that has wires coming out, and he does this expression. He has a facial expression where he just frowns like he's about to start crying, and he looks like The only equivalent I have is that, you know, have you ever seen like a picture of a blobfish where it's just like, yeah, like he looks like that, but his eyes are clamped open, and you're like, this is the most miserable thing I've ever fucking seen.
Yeah, It's it's terrible, And it's like watching it when I was eight, when I was sixteen, and when I was forty three, I can tell you it was still very effective at scaring the shit out of me.
But yeah, it is definitely also as an adult, a little bit more shocking because it has such it has such implications about mental health treatments, where they were, where they are, and how callously people treated you know, any human being who needed medical care or correction or adjustment. It just it brings up a lot for me.
Yeah, exactly, And it's it's that's another part of it too. The horror of it is that he has no choice I mean, he this is what he signed up for because he you know, basically agreed to be in this program because he thought it was going to be an easier time than serving his sentence. And so it brings up a lot. Like I said, we could literally talk about this movie for five hours. It's very textured in that way. But you know, so he's going through these this treatment where he's being forced to watch these horrible films of violence and sexual abuse, and you know, he starts feeling sick. And that's the aversion of therapy part, is that basically they're trying to they're forcing him to feel sickness so that he won't do this obviously in real life. So after time, they test him in front of a panel of like science and he passes. I mean, they put like a naked woman on stage and he doesn't rape her.
Oh, he can't even touch her.
Yeah, And it's that thing where you're like, oh my god, Like what a weird concept to be like proving that this guy is rehabilitated by like putting a woman naked on That to me is like very very strange to be like thinking about when you're watching this movie. But so then Alex gets released from prison because of he completes the stream and he goes home. I mean everyone's sort of ambivalent about him coming back with his mom and dad are like, okay, near back, we rented your room out to some other guy, and.
We've basically like adopted him as a son. Like we basically him have kicked you out of your home, thinking you're either never coming back or you're coming back in fourteen years. Yeah, and this guy's a better son than you ever were.
Yeah, And it's you know, like again, this is it's so hard because you know how terrible he is, Like you know that he performed all these terrible acts with no you know, no he didn't care, he had no cares in the world. But then there are moments where you're like, well, now he's going through this like prison industrial complex situation, and how does that change your opinion about him? Right? So then you know Alex is having a hard time. You know, he's he would he would try to resort to moments of violence and get sick that at some point he ends up back at the guy, the writer's house, and then the writer you know, basically sort of is getting his revenge on him once he figures out it's him, and you know, basically decides to blast Beethoven's Ninth and that is Alex loves Beethoven, and when he was in treatment, they made the association that Beethoven was going to make him sick, which of course is like, take the one thing he loves and make it against turn it against him, right, And so it freaks out so much that he jumps out the window tries to kill himself, right, And when he wakes up, now after that suicide attempt, he's in a hospital, the press and the government have changed their tune on him, Like the press is saying that he's he was a victim of this like horrible you know, government experiment, and he basically becomes like a celebrity, like he pretty much like becomes the thing like they he's he's basically given everything that he wants, like he's you know, the guy that put you know, was the head of the treatment comes back and talks to him and they're playing beethoven Snein for him again and he doesn't feel any symptoms anymore. And then you're just like, Okay, now the movie's over and you're left with this like crazy scenario, which is like, well, now he's just back to who he was, and exactly how do I feel about that?
You know? And they've made him out to be a victim, and even though he victimized people throughout the film and like in horrible, violent, terrible ways, and they're making him out to be the victim now of his own government, in his own world. And it's it's very, very complicated, and I don't think it's meant to leave you feeling good, but it really doesn't leave you feeling good.
Yeah, I mean, I think the I think the obvious question is, okay, so what's more moral or something like being just a bad person or being programmed to be a good person?
Right right, right, and and and it's kind of the programming is such a big part of it because there's also this this the thing that I don't love about the movie is that it doesn't go too in depth into anything one thing or any one train of thought, or anyone explanation of the world or the people, and so on the surface, there's that very basic like, well, who's the real monster? And you're like, well, Alex is a fucking monster, but like that's that's a no brainer, he's a fucking monster. It left me with a feeling of I entered this thinking I knew what was right and wrong and who was good and bad, and I'm leaving feeling like everything is right and wrong and good in bad, Like I'm leaving here. You know, the last shot of the film is so weird in its concept, and it doesn't really explain beyond the fact that this is a character who gets weirdly everything he wants. It doesn't explain the unseen misery of like what he had to go through to get it, And like, I don't know, there's just a lot that I could have used more. Like this movie's already two hours and fifteen minutes long. I could have used another two hours. If they would have thought to explain any of that, I would have taken it.
Yeah, And like it's crazy because you could really go down a rabbit hole of information about it and a lot of people talking about it. I mean, I think that part of what Pauline Cale and Roger Ebert were discussing and their reviews is just the simple fact that it seems to be it doesn't have enough of a message about the violence.
Yes, you know what I mean. At the pointless film when it comes to discussion, to discussing the violence, and that is egregious and irresponsible that they're not that, I think again, people have over the years just tied themselves in knots trying to make it make sense, and that's truly not the point of the film, and we would we also truly can never get there from what they've given us the film that they again, it's just it's pointless to try to even explain away how irresponsible the violence is.
And I think in my teenage years, I feel like part of what made teenagers, at least the ones that I knew, gravitate towards the film was that it seemed to be about this irresponsibility of the government, of the penal system, of everything conspiring against this guy. And I just think it's more complicated.
Than that obviously. Well also not to skirt over it, but like this movie is very enticing to teenagers because there are people who do not have a fully developed prefrontal lobe ye, Like, it's very enticing to people who haven't, like whose brains haven't fully developed yet, because it's like like you said, it's the colors and the shiny and the violence and like that is attractive to people who don't have a stake in the world. Yet.
Yeah, it's like I said, I'm trying not to like really like I'm trying to keep it succinct. I'm trying because I really do. I mean, my instinct is to go fucking hours and hours on analysis and it's hard because it, Like I think that's what makes the movie remembered by so many people for so long. It's because of this sort of gray area about everything. And you know, shit, I mean if people are seeing it as this like cool, punk, fucking masterpiece and irresponsible at the same time, I mean, that is a movie that is something to watch and to least get an opinion on and think about in your own way. And I mean I feel many ways about this film. I mean I think it's unpleasant, like I said, hard to watch. I also think that that's not a reason to to be scared of it or to want it to not exist or something. Does that make sense?
Yeah, that makes no sense.
Like I love like a deep text, Like I like having to put on like critical thinking skills and to like walk myself through a movie like this, even though yeah, it is horrifically violent at times where it's like very uncomfortable, like some of the rats partner are really bad. And at the same time, I this movie has influenced so many people. There's so many stylistic aspects of the film that I enjoy, even though I do think it's like there's so many like making women and giant dicks and everything, like all the art on the walls. It's just sort of like kind of overwhelming.
Yes, of course it is, of course, and truly there is something to be said for part of the complication for me is that Malcolm McDowell is a very good actor in this film. Yeah, and he is so believable as Alex, like to an astonishing degree. And it's really hard to watch someone be that good at being so terrible, I know, And like.
That is something that I read in both in the Pauline Kle review, I think it's in the Ebert review. And I mean even Malcolm mcdewell himself said, like this movie has followed me my entire life. Like he is simply a great actor and he was doing exactly what he was told to do as an actor, but it made his character so I mean, we just had to over invest because he's that good at it, and we're just now we're we have this emotional response to what he did in the movie. Yeah, but there's a like, like I said, there's it's just like it's very complicated. There's things I hate, things I love. I love the Wendy Carlos version of that what is it music from the Funeral of Queen Mary that they use like over and over in the film amazing. But then you know there's also like my complicated thoughts about Kubrick as a as a director too. I mean, yes, you know, you pretty much if you have a if you have a film background, or if you love film, you kind of have a requirement to have an opinion about Kubrick. It feels like, and you know, my stamps at him. Is it fluctuates so often? I mean, I love I love the Killing. But then there's also these other movies where he has these characters like Alex in this movie and Jack Torrance and I fucking hate.
So it's like the theory we talked about this when we talked about The Shining Too, where like his method is kind of deplorable, and like, the more you learn about how he treated actors and actresses on set, and yes, like to get the effect of what he wanted, Like, it's it, it's pretty deplorable. Yeah, And how do you enjoy art knowing that?
I know it's it's very complicated. I don't know anybody who thinks it's easy to do. People think that's easy because I'm very hard to wrestle.
Well, this is part of the problem is a lot of fucking people think it's easy. They're like you either, like it are you doing? I'm like, oh, but yes, it is, It's true, Like it's it's really it's difficult for me to engage with an artist if I think that as a person they were maybe not a good dude. And so when you watch a movie that is complicated, made by a creator that is complicated, like where do you go?
I know it's it is something that everyone is wrestling with everyone.
I mean I am. I am happy to go deep on Clockwork Orange and a bonus if you have more thoughts for sure, like anytime.
Well, well we might have to. We might have to do that because we just are simply out of time to really get into, you know, everything that could be said about it. But I mean for the theme. I will say that it was this was the only choice. Nothing has rocked me as hard as this movie. I mean it really was the thing that like kind of changed everything for me, good and bad. I mean, you know, it like freaked me out. I'm not gonna lie about you know, nudity and you know violence, sexual violence especially, I mean obviously, how could you not be rocked by that? But it's also like it also like kind of told me that, like I don't know, maybe this is stuff that I could watch and form opinions on. And you know, it kind of set a table for me to watch other kind of provocative, weird things. And then that just went from there. So this could be the only choice for me this week. And yeah, but I will say your film, I just I love it so much. I have such a like a personal attachment to it. So I'm just curious to hear how you were traumatized by it.
Oh yeah, and it's you know, it's And this is again, like when I thought about what film I could pick, there were several because I grew up in a family that like I was watching Halloween when I was like four, like maybe need a buck? They did not I give a bug if they wanted to watch it, I was gonna watch it, and so there were quite a few options. But the reason I picked this one is that the event of this movie felt so personal to me each and every time I watched it. And I was again way too young to watch it when I first did. But I'll just get into my film. It'll help me center my thoughts on it. Because my book my film was released in nineteen eighty. It's based on a book as well as Just like Millie's movie, this could have been a book to movie, could a band theme. But my film, again released in nineteen eighty, based on a book by Judith Guest. The screenplay is by Alvin Sargent, and this was Robert Redford's directorial debut. My movie is ordinary people.
I don't want to see any doctors or counselors. This is my family problems and I'll solve those problems in the privacy of.
Our own home.
So I think the first time I remember seeing this movie, I was like nine, like nine or ten, and it was one of those movies that you know, like again, VHS was big, and my grandparents would rent movies like this. In terms of endearment and just be like this was a good movie. Like they went and saw it in the theaters and loved it and wanted to watch it again because you know, they had no chance to see it until it came out on VHS, so they would go and rent it, and me, being a little shit, would sit on the couch and be like, I'm gonna watch whatever they watch because I'm an adult and I'm smart and cool. And then I would be like crying halfway through a movie and they'd be like, get the fuck out of here, So like your for me, get the fuck out of here. So this movie again, it was direct This was again Robert Redford could not have been a bigger movie star when he pivoted to directing and wanted to do something different in his life. And there is a whole article it's kind of an oral history of this this film that was released. It was an entertainment weekly art that I read called The Untold Story of Ordinary People. And you get so many moments about how this film came to be. But just to center you a little bit, like Robert Redford, huge, huge, huge movie star and then does this kind of film is right out of the gate like he was making a statement with this film, not just by being a director, but by saying, these are the kinds of stories I'm interested in telling. So it was a whole thing. And this movie was fucking huge. It won four Oscars. It won for Best Picture, it won for Best Director, Timothy Hutton won for Best Supporting Actor, and it won for Best Adapted Screenplay. And it won six Golden Globes. Like it was huge. It made a ton of money. Everyone on the damn planet, or at least everyone in America, saw this fucking movie, which is weird because it's a movie. It's a very quiet movie about a family that is falling apart. And one thing that I absolutely love about this movie is that it presented in a way that is it is a constant mystery that is unfolding. So we have our main characters all acting heavyweights. You have Timothy Hutton playing Conrad Jarrett, who's a teen that kind of is the center of this film. The POV of this film, Donald Sutherland plays his dad, Calvin. Mary Tyler Moore plays his mom Beth, which again Mary Tyler Moore like lady throwing her hat up in a sitcom on TV to this like ice queen bitch role. It was a move, it was a shift for everyone. You've got jud Hirsch playing doctor Berger, m Emmett Walsh, our fave shows up as a swim coach. And this was a first role or an early role for Elizabeth McGovern. She plays Janine Pratt, total baby faced Elizabeth McGovern. Dinah Mannhoff is in it. She plays Karen, who's a friend of Conrad's. And you'll also wreck a nice You'll recognize this one guy and you'll be like, who is that. It's Adam Baldwin, also known as Jane from Firefly, playing one of Conrad's friends as well. So it's got this real heavyweight cast with an absolutely heavy heavyweight director, although no one knew at the time how that was going to work out. And again it's a movie that's about this family that's falling apart. So my my very quick one sentence synopsis if I can, is that on the heels of a death, a young son realizes that the cracks in his family are actually sinkholes.
That's a great one, thank you.
Thank you, And it's got like it's got this totally silent opening. It was filmed in the North shore of Chicago, and it looks like like, oh you.
You I used to live in Hanover Park, baby, just just just south of what is it Lake Forest? Is that where they filmed?
Yeah, oh yeah, got a represent And this place is idyllic. I mean it's like you're looking at a lake, You're looking at the autumn. It's like beautiful trees. It's a quiet small town. You've got these these houses that are so big You're like, is this a house or a private school? And when you do first enter, the first scene is like, you know, you're looking at a lot of kids singing in a choir at a private school or at a school, and it's the eighties, so somebody is wearing enough blush that it looks like a bruise. And Elizabeth McGovern and Timothy Hutton are singing in this choir and they look completely sleep deprived, like every kid in the eighties was an adult who was sleep deprived. So they just kept the look and you're like, these teens are shrugs to funk like they are not getting any sleep. And you could tell the Conrad's not getting any sleep because you're watching him have nightmares and he's having these dreams of drowning. You kind of learn very slowly, Like first you learn that he's been out of the hospital for about a month and a half half, then you learn that he was in the hospital for four months, and you're like, okay, but why was he in the hospital. Why does his mom seem mad at him? Why is his dad trying so hard to like win his affection and make him feel comfortable. It's really intense to watch that unfold in the backdrop of all this normalcy. And so the story is as you come to learn it. And again this is after watching Conrad, who is completely sleep deprived. He's not participating in class, he looks like he's not sleeping, he's not eating. He really looks like he is crawling out of his skin. In the whole film, Like Timothy Hutton did an absolutely amazing job with this role, because you felt the emotion of this kid who just could not who was uncomfortable everywhere and could not settle down. He's uncomfortable around his friends. He just like he's seeing images of cemeteries when like a train passes, like he's just kind of out of it. He's out of the world. He's not in the world that he's inhabiting that he's living in. So that was I think, just again remarkable acting and directing. And the story that you learn over time in this movie is that Conrad had an older brother who died in a boating accident. He was there and after his brother died, and his brother was like, you know, the sport every sports trophy that could possibly have been one. He was kind of the favored son, and his parents didn't really make any effort to hide that when he was alive, and they certainly didn't make an effort to hide it after he died. But his brother died in a boating accident, and Conrad tried to kill himself and spent four months in a hospital, and then you know, we're kind of catching up with him where you know, upon returning home, he just has a really hard time adjusting to life. So one thing that is instantly to me about this movie is how they center the parents in normalcy while Conrad's completely freaking out. So you're seeing the parents for the first time, like at a play, and you know, Donald Sutherland's character Cal is like sleeping through the play, and then they get in the car and Mary Tyler Moore is like, you know, was that fun? And they're going out with other couples and like they're just having what seems like a very normal night. But when they come home, Calvin is the only one who seems interested in checking on Conrad and he kind of sees his light on and he goes upstairs and like knocks on the door, and you see that in him where he's constantly like asking Conrad if he's called a doctor, if he's like made this move, So you know something is going on. And the next morning at breakfast, this scene just fucking kills me every time. The next morning at breakfast, they're having a total serial commercial breakfast where it's like oh Jay, coffee, eggs, French shows, like everything, and Conrad's crawling out of his skin and Mary Tyler is like, He's like, I don't really feel like eating, and you know, the dad's like, no, you gotta eat breakfasts portmeala the day and she grabs the plate and is like, he doesn't want to eat, and she just throws the food in the damn garbage disposal, like there's no attempt to understand how he feels or why she is just from that moment on, and again it's such a small moment, but from that moment on, you're like, Wow, what is her fucking problem with him? What is going on with them?
Yeah, she she It's very early in the movie, but it's already established that she has little to no patience for whatever he's gone through.
No, absolutely, and it's really it's incredibly jarring to see because again, this is nineteen eighty We're not used to seeing moms presented this way, and particularly about Mary Tyler Moore. So in this Entertainment Weekly article that I read about the you know, the Untold Story of ordinary People, Mary Tyler Moore says Beth was a victim. I shared this with Redford, who told me in our first meeting that the non relationship Beth had with Conrad was the mirror of the non interaction he had with his own father. Beth made me think of my father and his rigidity. I imagine a bit of him and me, along with my own tendency to want everything to be perfect and to set the table for bringing Beth to life on film. So that was kind of important that this is something that they discussed as she prepared for this role, and the writer of this article said that as Conrad begins to heal, the cracks and Beth in Calvin's marriage become impossible for Calvin to ignore, in particular Beth's inability to show conrad affection. Audiences viewed Beth as the ultimate icy mother, but more never saw her that way. And so you have this person, you know, this actress who's like, I know, I'm going to be playing a stone cold bitch, but to her it makes perfect sense that she was all so a victim in that she lost her son and she almost lost her other son, and she's losing her marriage, and she's losing her life. Like her whole life was built around this family and it is breaking apart.
Yeah, this is a really interesting component of this film for me personally, because I think this film cannot you cannot help it. It makes you think about your own family and your own the dynamics that you share with everybody in your family. And there are times where I have talked about this with women who are around my age, and it feels like the mothers of our generation would be like the mothers of this generation likes kind of you know, same era. Obviously, I'm younger than Conrad or whatever. But this was not the mother of the Sarah were just different and they did not A lot of them just did not have They had a lot of unprocessed trauma mm hmm. And it showed.
Absolutely absolutely, and they weren't taught. They were taught how to be parents in one particular way and that did not change with the times for a long time. And it was a lot of unprocessed trauma for that too. And I think part of what really traumatized me the first time I saw this movie is that it was not too long after my own mother left my brother and I with my grandparents. And so as I'm watching Beth on the screen, I'm like, moms fucking leave. Moms don't like their kids, and they leave. And it was she didn't leave in the film, but I could kind of I was telegraphing that, and like I could see that coming, where Like it was weird that I was kind of learning and feeling that it was possible for moms to not like their kids at the same time I'm watching it on a screen. Wow, And that was fucking hard. That was very I was way too young to be thinking about that, essentially, So that was really difficult to process that, like it's being played as a role, but for me, it was very real, very real, And I think for a long time I kind of viewed that character the same way that audiences viewed her, like she's just an icy bitch and like there's no redemption there. And it wasn't until I rewatched it as an adult for this podcast that I was even able to look at her with different eyes, not to say that she's not icy, but that I can understand her detachment a little bit more by understanding kind of the trauma that had happened to the whole family.
I agree, and I mean it's complicated because there's a lot of things that happen in the movie with her character that do telegraph the iciness and she's very status conscious. Yes, that is the hardest thing for me to take, and that's that's that's where I stop feeling so forgiving of her right because I'm just like, she just loves she loves the like the dance, the social dance of like you know, going on vacation and having drinks with the neighbors and going to fucking parties and like you know, she's just all about image and you know, she's embarrassed that her son goes to therapy. You know, she's got this whole like veneer of that. She's just like this fun, freewheeling lady.
Exactly, and she can't deal with the reality of her life, right.
And and and I get and I do feel like, yes, I mean that's to like be a psychiatrist for this fictional character. But it's this thing where I'm like that there are times when I do want to sympathize with her, obviously, but then she just makes it hard. Sometimes. Her character is like when the whole thing where they go to Houston and she's playing golf and stuff, and it's like this, so let us have a cocktail over at the clubhouse. And then the second later they're in this like wicked argument, Yeah.
Because Calvin dared to bring up their fucking son at home who had just tried to kill himself. Yeah, and she gets pissed about it, like you're ruining my vacation by reminding me of that fucking kid at home.
Right.
It's brutal, It's brutal. Yeah, Yeah, I definitely. You know, I still think about that character a lot, and I think it was really brave for Mary Tyler Moore to play that, and it's so against type for her and this this movie just felt like it was a chance for every actor to show a different side of them, Like it must have felt so nice for them to have access to these roles. One thing that was funny. There are two points that were really funny. One is why he casts jud Hirsh And this again comes from that article that I read and read. Robert Redford says, I saw this TV show Taxi that had jud Hersh in it, and he had this rapid fire delivery, and I thought, wait a minute, this would be great because he seems like he's a little nuts. I thought the psychiatrist should appear a little crazy. So I love that. That's how jud Hirsch.
Got the role.
And when you're watching this film, if you've never seen it before and it feels familiar, it's because you've probably seen Goodwill Hunting, which I feel like was a prototype for that psychiatrist kid relationship. Like this movie was absolutely the prototype for that.
Yeah, gotta say love that office that he has with like the you know, window unit and the ash trays and like, yes, old movie psychiatry like a psychiatrist's office with like you know, his sweaters and his quarterboys.
Oh my god, And I love their relationship like this, this, this relationship between Conrad and doctor Berger is really special. And again it's something I hadn't ever seen on screen before. And I barely even knew the psychiatrist existed when I was a kid and watched this for the first time, and I feel like to watch someone be pushed to their limits, like he didn't let this He didn't let this kid get comfortable at all. He was like, we are going to figure this out. I'm not going to answer your questions all the time. I'm going to make you work to answer some of your own questions. And that's just how it's going to be. And I love that. I love seeing that. Like I thought he they were both so fucking fantastic. Everyone was so fantastic in their role. And the other thing I loved from that article is Robert Redford said, I thought Richard Dreyfis should play the psychiatrist. So I called him and asked. He said, I can't talk right now. I'm having a nervous breakdown. So I said, well, I won't bother you. Hope it all works out. Then I went to Donald Sutherland and he said, I don't want to play the psychiatrist, but I'd love to play the husband.
Yeah.
So I just love that, like finding out those little casting those little casting moves.
Yeah. I donald Sutherland too. It's like he's so awesome. We've talked about him, we talked about Clute, We've talked about Donald Sutherland before. We know he's a huge giant. What did I say about him? God, that episode was like maybe like our third episode, Like I said, he was like a sexy, open mouthed giant or something like that. I don't now, I don't remember what I called him. Y'all were just gonna have to go back and listen to our third episode or something. A laconic oath, that's what I call a laconic oath, Yes, the name of the episode. For Christ's sake. Love that laconic oaf. But like, yeah, I mean, he's such a good actor because he really like community. He really communicates his con nundrum in the film in a really good way, like he's like truly in the middle. Absolutely, he the scene where he is like running and he's running through the park and he's with his chatty friend. The chatty friend leaves, and then he just starts thinking and thinking and all the thoughts that are popping through his head, his whole situation with his wife and his son and you know, just the family drama. And then he trips and he just sort of like sits in it in the moment, like he just like I tripped, and now I'm just down here, So I'm just gonna start, you know, feeling my feelings. I really fucking felt that. I was like, wow, Like he's such a good actor.
Oh, he's a phenomenal actor, and phenomenal in this film too, because it's it's a role that's very very quiet, Like it's not an overplayed like he never has a huge outburst. He never has like a big emotional moment. So all the emotions that you feel when you watch him acting, it's like these tiny movements, these tiny movements with his space, these tiny ways that he comes close to touching Conrad and doesn't or does, and like it's just it's very very interesting to watch him as an actor and studying that in this film. And again I've said it before and I will continue to say it. Timothy Hutton was fucking phenomenal in this movie. One thing that I found unbelievable, which I did not know until I read this in prep for this episode, is that Robert Redford purposely isolated Timothy Hutton, and he instructed the cast and crew to not interact with him on or off the set, and so Redford said, I wanted him to feel isolated. It would be up to him what to do with it. But I didn't want him to feel like he had a lot of support because the character didn't. He was wonderful. It was a brand new thing for him, and he was really raw and totally open, and Timothy Hutton had no idea what was going on. He's like people would like, you'd go get breakfasts at the craft table and people would come up to him and he'd be like, hey, how's it going, And they'll be like great, and then just like take their coffee and leave, Like he had no fucking idea. That Robert Redford said that to them, I just.
Have to say, not for nothing, but I have to stay for the record that Timothy Hutton and ordinary people is pretty much entirely responsible for this type of guy that I would love for the rest of my life, like sensitive, dark haired boy who is going through some stuff and he's just trying to sort out his problems. Wears a flannel over a T shirt with like some little running shoes. Disheveled, yeah, disheveled like sweet, but like it's going through something sensitive. I he is the prototype. He set that table for me, and then then for the rest of my life. Well, he's gonna love these like sensitive Dagard boys.
It's true. It's fucking true. He brought it so hard in this movie. And then you see him trying to be like a regular quote unquote teenager and trying to date or not even date, but he's trying to even just like talk to Janine, like he's trying to just talk to a girl and see if she's interested and have a normal experience. And there is this absolutely crushing scene where he takes her out. They finally go out together and they're at a McDonald's and just as she's trying starting to ask him like what happened with you? Like what did you do? What happened? Why were you in the hospital, he's starting to tell this story for the first time, and these fucking dopes come in, these idioteen guys and they start like putting paper hats on everyone and like like making the sounds and having a good time, and she starts laughing and you just watch the light go out of him, and I have to believe that part of that is him realizing and having been so isolated on this set, because he was able to convey that feeling of total and utter loneliness, like no one in this world can understand him. And it's just an absolutely crushing scene and it's on the heels of you know. We find out that he had this friend in the hospital, Karen, who's played by Dinah Manhoff, and he tries to call her at Christmas time and finds out that she died by suicide. And it again, it's like it sends him spiraling. He really hates being in therapy, but he goes to see a therapist. And it's again these small things that are that are laid out in this film when you think that it can't get worse, like this kid has been through so much, it can't get worse. His brother died. That was awful. He tried to commence sue. That was awful. His family is weird. His mom doesn't like him or know how to talk to him. That's awful. His dad's a little bit smothering, that's awful. And then you find out because his fucking swim coach asks him that he had electro shock therapy during that four months in the hospital. And you find out because his fucking swim coach is like, well, I wouldn't let them put electricity through my head. And so you're watching this kid trying to readjust after having gone through multiple tragedies and traumas, and the fact that this girl that he likes can't pay attention to him for two minutes is like the final blow.
God. That is like one of the like worst feelings in the world is when you are like trying to tell somebody that this very serious issue and they're distracted. Oh my god, you know, and so something happens like you know this, like and and in that moment too, it's like she knew she fucked up, Like she was just like I fucked up, but I don't know how to fix it. And it was agonizing. Just that that part agonizes me because you like, I just feel for both of them because they're just young, yes, and they don't know how to work it out. You know, God, it's hard.
And that's the thing like that you're watching these two teenagers, one who's been through something so intense and traumatic and another one who doesn't know how to respond and still be herself. It's just it's really hard scene to see. And I think the other the other things that are hard for me, because I saw this movie again in school, mind you, I had it. Look, I had an English teacher. I won't say his name because I don't know if I legally can. I had an English teacher who was fucking going through it. I guess his daughter was on drugs. He had like a teenage daughter from another They lived in another town, so she went to another school. She was on drugs and like ran away from home. And he was just had like a year or two where he was just going through it. And he showed us this movie in class. So I'm like fourteen, and this is the other part of this film that I feel like is traumatic for me because at this point in my life, I was suicidal. So watching a movie like this was not great for me to see because I was processing my own shit. And one of the things that is two truly heartbreaking scenes for me is when Conrad's flashing back to or it's I think it's Conrad or either or Calvin possibly who's flashing back to the night that he was hospitalized. And as he's being loaded into the ambulance, you hear in the background one of the EMTs say the cuts are vertical. He really meant business. And then you see when you do finally see his wrists, you realize that, like he cut up, and he did cut vertically, like there are several slashes on his wrists, like he really did want to die. And that is just so fucking hard to say to this I burst into teer watching that scene again. It's just so hard to take. After watching for you know, a couple of hours, this kid struggle, and then by the point where they show that, you realize and you're kind of in it with him and realize why he would attempt something like that. And the other way that that becomes perfectly clear is when after Karen dies, he goes to talk to doctor Berger, and doctor Burger's kind of pushing him and is like, you know, up to this point been like you know there's someone, there's someone beside your mother that you have to forgive, and Conrad's like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. But in this scene, he's like crying. He goes to doctor Berger and doctor Berger says, what was the one wrong thing you did? And Conrad says, I hung on. So when they're showing this scene of his brother drowning, and his brother is like jockey and playing it like a joke because he thinks he's invincible, because that's how he's been made to feel his whole fucking life. So when real rhet happens, and Conrad's trying to save his brother's life and tell him hang on to this thing, like we got caught in the storm. That fucking sucks, hang on to the boat, get through this, and his brother lets go, and his brother's playing it like in a jokey way, not to say he deserved to die, but that the guilt Conrad is carrying is that he could save himself and he couldn't save his brother. And I just again fucking wept absolute monster, Like I just cried like a monster. I could not believe it. And there are moments again in this film, and I think this is part of what makes Robert Redford such a good director, that are so quiet and so impactful, and those are two of them for me, where you just hear in the background the EMT guy's talking and then you hear Conrad finally reach this truth about himself and it is crushing and there's nothing he can do about it. It is the truth and that is it, and he cannot heal from that because there's because his brother still died and he was still the wrong son survived essentially, and he also survived his suicide attempt, so it's like he's just carrying it. So I just again could talk about this movie for a million hours. It's a very difficult movie. It's a little controversial, I think for some people because it really shines a light on how the normalcy of family can be the downfall of a family that insistence on normalcy at all costs, and we see that with Calvin. We see him trying so hard to love his wife and love his son, and that is what ultimately crushes them, is that insistence that they not be who they are and feel what they feel. So fuck this movie, I do too.
I love it so much. I love it for, you know, for these very like thought provoking real, you know moments. But and I love it for the frivolous stuff too. I love a white turtleneck on the and the the white turtleneck and the clocks on Elizabeth McGovern's character.
A plaid skirt.
I love it, love that early eighties fashion. But you know, part of what I think is interesting to watching this in the kind of modern context. And you know, we try to to put a lot of emphasis on that when we talk about films on this podcast. But you know, I think that as a culture, we have only just really started to become more aware of therapy and self awareness and you know, sort of self improvement. Right. So you know, sometimes I think if if you have, if you have that perspective of this modern perspective where everybody is in therapy and everybody talks about everything, you would watch a film like this and be like, what are what is wrong with this family? They don't talk to one another, they're ashamed of seeking treatment and going to get help for things that are bothering them, and everybody's just very like closed off. But the reality is is that a lot of people still act this way towards their own fields, and it's hard to watch that in a movie sometimes where you're just like, this person is working against their best interest and really the bridge is there, they just don't want to walk across it, and it's hard. It's hard to see that, you.
Know, oh brutal. Well. I just realized we've been talking for one and twenty minutes. I know, I know, and I could talk about this forever. And I'm so glad that we got to go so deep or you know, to start to dive in on both of these filmss. And you know, if you have the wherewithal to watch them or if you're interested in watching them, I hope you do. I think they're both extraordinary films for very different reasons and ordinary people just it just rocks my world. I understand why my teacher played it when we were fourteen, but we were still too young for it, so like, I get it. It was one of those weird ways that an adult was trying to communicate with us didn't work, but it's stuck with me, like this film really stuck with me. And I'm glad we got to talk about these two, these two movies me too.
And I'm just as your friend, I'm happy that you shared some stuff about yourself and how this movie connected to your own experiences. I feel like that's a very valuable thing to share with Thank you with us who are listening so well. Do you want to talk about next week's movies or can we go on from this? I don't know. Should wed podcast right fucking out?
I feel like we should mention what movies we plan to watch next week and we'll just see what happens after this episode comes out.
We have traumatized people so much that we simply cannot do any more episodes. You might be able to guess this one. Who knows, But the movies for next week are The Gambler from nineteen seventy four and Thief from nineteen eighty one.
I mean, truly, of all the themes we have ever had, this is the easiest one to guess.
If you know anything about us.
This should be an absolute cinch.
Well listen. If you have your own thoughts about this episode, I know it was a big one, a lot of heavy, heavy thoughts, But if you want to, you can email us at I Saw what you did pot at gmail dot com.
And we also have a PO box if you want to send us handwritten letters. We've been getting a ton of those. Our po box is linked on our link tree and our Instagram account where you can find you know only that's one of our social media accounts. You can find us at I saw pod on Instagram and Twitter.
Yes and listen if you're around you know, Apple, Spotify, leave us a review, you know, click of five stars or I don't know if they have a star system on Spotify, but if they do, click the most stars, meaning you like it, it really helps us out. We would really appreciate it. On that note, Danielle, it was such a fucking pleasure to do this episode with you. I'm so glad that I get to talk movies with you every week.
Truly could not nothing could be better. I'm really grateful for you and I'm glad we got to do this and I'm glad you feel better.
Thank you, not as scared as I was over to hours.
Good.
Thanks everybody for listening. We'll see you next time. By BA.
This has been an exactly right production, produced and mixed by Casey O'Brien. Our theme song is by Tom bry Fogel, artwork by Garrett Ross. Our executive producers are Georgia Hartstart Caringkle Gareth and Daniel Kramer. You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at I Saw pod, and you can email us at I Saw what you did Pod at gmail
