Welcome to had to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt, and today we're talking presidential money lessons with Megan Gorman.

Welcome to had to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt, and today we're talking presidential money lessons with Megan Gorman.

All right, so we're finally gonna do it. Joel, We're gonna tell everyone out there who they should vote for who Just kidding. We're actually not even going to get into like the recent presidential tax returns. I guess that wasn't that reason, but or whether candidates whether they own any stocks, or whether they own real estate. Actually, we're gonna completely avoid the mudslinging landscape that we find ourselves in today, and instead we're gonna focus on personal finance, which is what we do best. And fortunately for us, we're joined by author Meghan Gorman. Meghan is a history buff. She began her career at Goldman Sachs. She founded her own specializing in tax and financial planning for high and ultra high net worth individuals. She's a regular contributor over at Forbes and her new book, All the President's Money, it looks at the men who have governed America and specifically how they govern their own money, their own personal finances. And so we're excited to look at the different financial lessons that we can all learn from them. Megan, thank you so much for joining us today.

All right, so we're finally gonna do it. Joel, We're gonna tell everyone out there who they should vote for who Just kidding. We're actually not even going to get into like the recent presidential tax returns. I guess that wasn't that reason, but or whether candidates whether they own any stocks, or whether they own real estate. Actually, we're gonna completely avoid the mudslinging landscape that we find ourselves in today, and instead we're gonna focus on personal finance, which is what we do best. And fortunately for us, we're joined by author Meghan Gorman. Meghan is a history buff. She began her career at Goldman Sachs. She founded her own specializing in tax and financial planning for high and ultra high net worth individuals. She's a regular contributor over at Forbes and her new book, All the President's Money, it looks at the men who have governed America and specifically how they govern their own money, their own personal finances. And so we're excited to look at the different financial lessons that we can all learn from them. Megan, thank you so much for joining us today.

Oh my gosh, thanks for having me on, Matt and Joel. I've been looking forward to this.

Oh my gosh, thanks for having me on, Matt and Joel. I've been looking forward to this.

We have too, And seriously, I started digging into your book and I couldn't put it down because there's something about the overlap of history, our country's history, and then money that to me, I'm insatiable because this book.

We have too, And seriously, I started digging into your book and I couldn't put it down because there's something about the overlap of history, our country's history, and then money that to me, I'm insatiable because this book.

Is perfect and it humanizes these characters that are oftentimes only seen as characters, right, Like, I'm sure the next thing you want to look into, Joel, is like whether or not, like what was the exercise routine of these presidents? Did they ever go running? Like I do?

Is perfect and it humanizes these characters that are oftentimes only seen as characters, right, Like, I'm sure the next thing you want to look into, Joel, is like whether or not, like what was the exercise routine of these presidents? Did they ever go running? Like I do?

Well?

Well?

Teddy Roosevelt at least was a pretty buff fella. But Megan, first question we have to ask everyone who come on the show is what do you like to splur? John, Matt and I we call it the craft beer equivalent because we spend a good bit of money on good craft beer. But hey, we're saving investing the same time, so it's all good. What's that spending line item in your budget?

Teddy Roosevelt at least was a pretty buff fella. But Megan, first question we have to ask everyone who come on the show is what do you like to splur? John, Matt and I we call it the craft beer equivalent because we spend a good bit of money on good craft beer. But hey, we're saving investing the same time, so it's all good. What's that spending line item in your budget?

Okay?

Okay?

So I had a feeling you were going to ask me this question, and so I'm guessally going to tell you the truth, even though it's sort of embarrassing.

So I had a feeling you were going to ask me this question, and so I'm guessally going to tell you the truth, even though it's sort of embarrassing.

So I'm a tourist.

So I'm a tourist.

I'm born in April and Taurus is We're the lovers of luxury, builders of wealth, and if you ever come to a Taurus's house, they're typically beautiful. We love houses and decorating and decorating houses is sort of my passion. So I would tell you the thing I like to splurge on is vintage lighting.

I'm born in April and Taurus is We're the lovers of luxury, builders of wealth, and if you ever come to a Taurus's house, they're typically beautiful. We love houses and decorating and decorating houses is sort of my passion. So I would tell you the thing I like to splurge on is vintage lighting.

And I know I sound crazy.

And I know I sound crazy.

I know you usually get like different answers, but I love going on sites like First Dibbs and estate sales and looking for really stunning lighting pieces.

I know you usually get like different answers, but I love going on sites like First Dibbs and estate sales and looking for really stunning lighting pieces.

So that's my splurge.

So that's my splurge.

And I'm very blessed to have a very patient husband, not just because the fact that I like splurging on that, but he's also willing to help me do all the things that you have to do to make sure that those lights work in today's lighting fish, So that is my splurge.

And I'm very blessed to have a very patient husband, not just because the fact that I like splurging on that, but he's also willing to help me do all the things that you have to do to make sure that those lights work in today's lighting fish, So that is my splurge.

So can you give an example. I don't exactly know what you mean when you say vintage lighting, Like, are we talking about like a street lamp from France or something that you've like, what does this look like?

So can you give an example. I don't exactly know what you mean when you say vintage lighting, Like, are we talking about like a street lamp from France or something that you've like, what does this look like?

Okay, no, no, I would tell you like Morano scampces from the nineteen sixties, right. So I love history, and history is told through fashion, food, decorating.

Okay, no, no, I would tell you like Morano scampces from the nineteen sixties, right. So I love history, and history is told through fashion, food, decorating.

In your house.

In your house.

You can often look like I'm a child of the seventies and eighties. I know I'm older than you guys, but you could look at a picture of a house from the early eighties and know exactly the time period, right, And so.

You can often look like I'm a child of the seventies and eighties. I know I'm older than you guys, but you could look at a picture of a house from the early eighties and know exactly the time period, right, And so.

I love that and it's sort of historical and fun.

I love that and it's sort of historical and fun.

And that's why lighting is so interesting, because I think it tells you a lot about what's going on during that time.

And that's why lighting is so interesting, because I think it tells you a lot about what's going on during that time.

Period, got it, Okay.

Period, got it, Okay.

It's also it makes for a more interesting centerpiece things to talk about because a lot of the style today I'm not going to say there's not cool stuff out there, but it's mimicking stuff from the past, or it can be kind of bland. But if you get like an authentic mid century piece from the sixties, it's a statement and people are like, oh, tell me about that.

It's also it makes for a more interesting centerpiece things to talk about because a lot of the style today I'm not going to say there's not cool stuff out there, but it's mimicking stuff from the past, or it can be kind of bland. But if you get like an authentic mid century piece from the sixties, it's a statement and people are like, oh, tell me about that.

Yeah. Remember, lighting is the jewelry of the house. So anyone who's doing like you.

Yeah. Remember, lighting is the jewelry of the house. So anyone who's doing like you.

Can sound like something that you continue to recite to your husband. You don't understand that as.

Can sound like something that you continue to recite to your husband. You don't understand that as.

It is, you have to say that to your spouse to get them to buy in. Right. But you know, it's funny because I love the mix of high and low, right, And I think that's something true in personal finance and even in my book.

It is, you have to say that to your spouse to get them to buy in. Right. But you know, it's funny because I love the mix of high and low, right, And I think that's something true in personal finance and even in my book.

Right, Like the presidents, they're.

Right, Like the presidents, they're.

So high end and yet we're sort of gossiping about them in the book, which is sort of naughty.

So high end and yet we're sort of gossiping about them in the book, which is sort of naughty.

Right.

Right.

It's a little US magazine, which is what I love about it.

It's a little US magazine, which is what I love about it.

Well, before we launch into the presidents, let's talk about you, because we did some digging with you and just your background and trying to figure you out. You've got quite a resume from what I understand you were a congressional page. Is that right?

Well, before we launch into the presidents, let's talk about you, because we did some digging with you and just your background and trying to figure you out. You've got quite a resume from what I understand you were a congressional page. Is that right?

Oh my god, you really found that about me?

Oh my god, you really found that about me?

Yes, Like you've taught English overseas as well. We would love to kind of hear.

Yes, Like you've taught English overseas as well. We would love to kind of hear.

The many lives of Megan Gormont. Why do you have such a diverse background. It's fascinating.

The many lives of Megan Gormont. Why do you have such a diverse background. It's fascinating.

You know. I grew up in a small town, but my parents were from New York and so they were always my father always was pushing us to think about things intellectually.

You know. I grew up in a small town, but my parents were from New York and so they were always my father always was pushing us to think about things intellectually.

So I've always loved politics, right.

So I've always loved politics, right.

I've loved the presidents and everything since I was like six years old, and I really originally wanted to go into politics back in the days when it wasn't so divisive, and so I was a page and I loved it. But when I was in college, I studied history fell in love with it even deeper. I was a Medieval British history major and a modern Chinese And I was in college in the late nineties and my dad used to say to me, China is going to be huge during your lifetime.

I've loved the presidents and everything since I was like six years old, and I really originally wanted to go into politics back in the days when it wasn't so divisive, and so I was a page and I loved it. But when I was in college, I studied history fell in love with it even deeper. I was a Medieval British history major and a modern Chinese And I was in college in the late nineties and my dad used to say to me, China is going to be huge during your lifetime.

Do yourself a favor.

Do yourself a favor.

Go learn about it so that you can understand. And so I ended up going over to China. I taught at a university in Tangent, which is the city next to Beijing.

Go learn about it so that you can understand. And so I ended up going over to China. I taught at a university in Tangent, which is the city next to Beijing.

And this is.

And this is.

Right as China was sort of changing, Like if I showed up in China today, I wouldn't recognize the town that I lived in. But it was just amazing to really start to understand what China was going through, the drive, what they hoped. And when I was there, there was no middle class in China, and it's amazing to think that here we are, you know, twenty five twenty six years later, and forty three percent of all Chinese are middle class. So being there at the time just taught me a lot about China and how they think, and it's helped me a lot in my career, mainly because when you're working with people with their money, you don't want them to be, you know, American centric in their portfolio. Americans tend to own a lot of America in their portfolios. You want them to have some areas of growth, like emerging markets. So it does help to know a lot about China.

Right as China was sort of changing, Like if I showed up in China today, I wouldn't recognize the town that I lived in. But it was just amazing to really start to understand what China was going through, the drive, what they hoped. And when I was there, there was no middle class in China, and it's amazing to think that here we are, you know, twenty five twenty six years later, and forty three percent of all Chinese are middle class. So being there at the time just taught me a lot about China and how they think, and it's helped me a lot in my career, mainly because when you're working with people with their money, you don't want them to be, you know, American centric in their portfolio. Americans tend to own a lot of America in their portfolios. You want them to have some areas of growth, like emerging markets. So it does help to know a lot about China.

All Right, I'm curious on the book front.

All Right, I'm curious on the book front.

So you're a history nerd, not a historian, but history nerd, right, history nerd?

So you're a history nerd, not a historian, but history nerd, right, history nerd?

Yeah, I mean I think I'm starting now.

Yeah, I mean I think I'm starting now.

I'm sort of straddling right both worlds because I did have to get into primary source documents and really do the historiography that you're required to do to do these types of books.

I'm sort of straddling right both worlds because I did have to get into primary source documents and really do the historiography that you're required to do to do these types of books.

Which is exactly my question.

Which is exactly my question.

Because you spent a lot of time, or I can tell you spent a lot of effort kind of digging up some of those details. How hard was it right to research this book because most biographies of presidents they just don't include Washington or Jefferson's detailed budget, Like you got to the root of a lot of this money stuff for a lot of presidents. How hard was it to come by those details?

Because you spent a lot of time, or I can tell you spent a lot of effort kind of digging up some of those details. How hard was it right to research this book because most biographies of presidents they just don't include Washington or Jefferson's detailed budget, Like you got to the root of a lot of this money stuff for a lot of presidents. How hard was it to come by those details?

You know, it's each era of American history has its different challenges. So I'll tell you anybody from sort of HW Clinton on, any of those presidents are really hard to get into and research because a lot of their records are still closed. You know, they're still living, and so you have to go about researching them very differently than sort of the presidents from Reagan and earlier, where they have presidential libraries or birthplaces. And what's really really important when you're doing this research is we talk about money all day long, right, We send emails, we're chatting with our spouse, our friends.

You know, it's each era of American history has its different challenges. So I'll tell you anybody from sort of HW Clinton on, any of those presidents are really hard to get into and research because a lot of their records are still closed. You know, they're still living, and so you have to go about researching them very differently than sort of the presidents from Reagan and earlier, where they have presidential libraries or birthplaces. And what's really really important when you're doing this research is we talk about money all day long, right, We send emails, we're chatting with our spouse, our friends.

So for me, it was finding letters, you know, and.

So for me, it was finding letters, you know, and.

Really starting to look for that one or two sentences that sort of showed me, oh, they are talking about finance here, we're talking about how they feel. And I talk about this early in the book, but I found a letter from Lyndon B. Johnson in the early forties to one of his friends saying, I was up at two am, you know, scared about money. And what was interesting was over looking at a lot of the different presidents that thematically was a thread I saw across all of them, and I think that's so important today because you know, Matt Joel, so many of us worry about money, right. I mean, you just asked me my splurge, right, but you didn't ask me what I was up at two am, you know, worried about.

Really starting to look for that one or two sentences that sort of showed me, oh, they are talking about finance here, we're talking about how they feel. And I talk about this early in the book, but I found a letter from Lyndon B. Johnson in the early forties to one of his friends saying, I was up at two am, you know, scared about money. And what was interesting was over looking at a lot of the different presidents that thematically was a thread I saw across all of them, and I think that's so important today because you know, Matt Joel, so many of us worry about money, right. I mean, you just asked me my splurge, right, but you didn't ask me what I was up at two am, you know, worried about.

And the truth is LBJ is right. You are up at two.

And the truth is LBJ is right. You are up at two.

Am trying to figure out are you doing all the right things? Regardless of what your asked.

Am trying to figure out are you doing all the right things? Regardless of what your asked.

A basis, Yeah, it's true. Like early on in the book, I think you said that most of their money problems are just like ours, and I totally agree, right, like the emotions behind that they are no different at all. But at the same time, there are also some contrasts, right, like you've got you talk. You start the whole book with the FDR because he lost something like twenty six thousand dollars by investing in lobsters, and if you inflation adjust that number, it's a lot, right, it's much more.

A basis, Yeah, it's true. Like early on in the book, I think you said that most of their money problems are just like ours, and I totally agree, right, like the emotions behind that they are no different at all. But at the same time, there are also some contrasts, right, like you've got you talk. You start the whole book with the FDR because he lost something like twenty six thousand dollars by investing in lobsters, and if you inflation adjust that number, it's a lot, right, it's much more.

Yeah, I think it's half a million dollars.

Yeah, I think it's half a million dollars.

And you know it's funny because I found that story by chance. There was one book about somebody mentioned something about he was investing in things like lobsters and dirigibles. So I call the FDR Library, right, and you make an appointment to go into the archives, and you know, people go to the FDR Library and Hyde Park because they want to learn about the depression of World War two or social security. And I literally called them up and I'm like, I'm here for the lobsters.

And you know it's funny because I found that story by chance. There was one book about somebody mentioned something about he was investing in things like lobsters and dirigibles. So I call the FDR Library, right, and you make an appointment to go into the archives, and you know, people go to the FDR Library and Hyde Park because they want to learn about the depression of World War two or social security. And I literally called them up and I'm like, I'm here for the lobsters.

And God blessed these archivists because they are like.

And God blessed these archivists because they are like.

You're what But when I arrived, Because what happens is you go and they look for this and then they tell you what boxes they believe it's in, and then you go to the archive room. You wear special gloves, you can't bring anything in. They're very strict, and they give you the boxes. And in one of the boxes was all of this correspondence.

You're what But when I arrived, Because what happens is you go and they look for this and then they tell you what boxes they believe it's in, and then you go to the archive room. You wear special gloves, you can't bring anything in. They're very strict, and they give you the boxes. And in one of the boxes was all of this correspondence.

And what's really.

And what's really.

Striking to me is FDR made this investment and he's like a lot of people today with angel investing. Right. You know, my friend's got a company, or my friend has a great idea. Let me throw twenty five thousand at it, and I'll do like a safe note or a convertible note. And FDR sort of does this in nineteen twenty one. But Matt and Joel, when you go behind the scenes in nineteen twenty one, that's the summer he got polio, and so that whole lobster situation where they're trying to figure out how to fix the investment.

Striking to me is FDR made this investment and he's like a lot of people today with angel investing. Right. You know, my friend's got a company, or my friend has a great idea. Let me throw twenty five thousand at it, and I'll do like a safe note or a convertible note. And FDR sort of does this in nineteen twenty one. But Matt and Joel, when you go behind the scenes in nineteen twenty one, that's the summer he got polio, and so that whole lobster situation where they're trying to figure out how to fix the investment.

You know, he's there trying to figure out am I ever going to walk again?

You know, he's there trying to figure out am I ever going to walk again?

And so you just imagine sort of what's going on in his mind, And there's part of me that wonders maybe the lobsters were a fun little reprieve from the stress of trying to figure out how am I ever going to walk again?

And so you just imagine sort of what's going on in his mind, And there's part of me that wonders maybe the lobsters were a fun little reprieve from the stress of trying to figure out how am I ever going to walk again?

But it's a small distraction, it is.

But it's a small distraction, it is.

And you think about your own money and the things you're worried about at the same time you're worried about money, and you sort of are like, Okay, I get it. But but FDR was interesting in the sense that, unlike the most of us, he had a safety net. Right. He's the ultimate trust fund kid. His mother was his trustee for most of his life, right, because she only died a few years before him. And so what was interesting in his situation was the letters between him and Eleanor and him and his mother, and he'd be like, hey, mom, things are great. I just saw so and so, by the way, can you send me X number of dollars I need it for this so's it was interesting and going through his correspondence to sort of see how money was just a part of the conversation.

And you think about your own money and the things you're worried about at the same time you're worried about money, and you sort of are like, Okay, I get it. But but FDR was interesting in the sense that, unlike the most of us, he had a safety net. Right. He's the ultimate trust fund kid. His mother was his trustee for most of his life, right, because she only died a few years before him. And so what was interesting in his situation was the letters between him and Eleanor and him and his mother, and he'd be like, hey, mom, things are great. I just saw so and so, by the way, can you send me X number of dollars I need it for this so's it was interesting and going through his correspondence to sort of see how money was just a part of the conversation.

I send those letters to my mom and I just get no reply. It's terrible. Can you do something about that?

I send those letters to my mom and I just get no reply. It's terrible. Can you do something about that?

Mag h.

Mag h.

Well, it's amazing how many of our presidents were always on allowances, right, like you know we think about today, Oh my god, poor Millennials and gen Zers. You know, mom and dad are still supporting them and so on. That's something over the course of American history that's been there. I mean, Calvin Coolidge had an allowance from his father of the course of his lifetime.

Well, it's amazing how many of our presidents were always on allowances, right, like you know we think about today, Oh my god, poor Millennials and gen Zers. You know, mom and dad are still supporting them and so on. That's something over the course of American history that's been there. I mean, Calvin Coolidge had an allowance from his father of the course of his lifetime.

Dwight D.

Dwight D.

Eisenhower, when he married Maimie, got an allowance from her father to support her because she was wealthy and he wasn't. So it's funny how you learn these little things and you start to look at these historical figures and go, oh gosh, yes, you are just like us.

Eisenhower, when he married Maimie, got an allowance from her father to support her because she was wealthy and he wasn't. So it's funny how you learn these little things and you start to look at these historical figures and go, oh gosh, yes, you are just like us.

Well you kind of highlight it too.

Well you kind of highlight it too.

How what's happening as you're having money issues, money successes or failures, is you're also having life successes or life failures. And how those things overlap and how they influence one another. That is something all of us deal with too. I want to kind of drill down into the financial anxiety thing just for a second too. You actually have a spectrum Truman to Ford financial anxiety continuum. Can you like, what's the difference between those guys, those former presidents and kind of where they stood on anxiety and how we can kind of find ourselves somewhere on that continuum.

How what's happening as you're having money issues, money successes or failures, is you're also having life successes or life failures. And how those things overlap and how they influence one another. That is something all of us deal with too. I want to kind of drill down into the financial anxiety thing just for a second too. You actually have a spectrum Truman to Ford financial anxiety continuum. Can you like, what's the difference between those guys, those former presidents and kind of where they stood on anxiety and how we can kind of find ourselves somewhere on that continuum.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, they're both interesting characters.

I mean, they're both interesting characters.

And by the way, they both died on the same day, different years, on December twenty sixth, in different years, and.

And by the way, they both died on the same day, different years, on December twenty sixth, in different years, and.

They actually knew each other.

They actually knew each other.

And I think for you know, Ford is one of these guys in American history that I think we missed out on an opportunity because two years in he of course loses the election to Jimmy Carter and has to, you know, basically retire. And most presidents will tell you it takes them two years to figure out the job. And you know, Ford, throughout his life he had a little bit of a golden touch. He sort of walked through life and made it look like a hot knife cutting through butter. But what's interesting about Ford is every time he would come to that fork in the road where he has to make a life decision that has a financial component to it.

And I think for you know, Ford is one of these guys in American history that I think we missed out on an opportunity because two years in he of course loses the election to Jimmy Carter and has to, you know, basically retire. And most presidents will tell you it takes them two years to figure out the job. And you know, Ford, throughout his life he had a little bit of a golden touch. He sort of walked through life and made it look like a hot knife cutting through butter. But what's interesting about Ford is every time he would come to that fork in the road where he has to make a life decision that has a financial component to it.

He was not afraid to go the other way.

He was not afraid to go the other way.

And I think this is important because when I work with my clients, right, I work with wealthy individuals, and people look at them and will say to me, how can they even worry they've got all that money. Well, let me tell you they worry. They were just like everybody else. But there's something about when you get to a financial decision point, being willing to take a look at the opportunity, set the risk, and what its impact will be and be unafraid to go in a different direction.

And I think this is important because when I work with my clients, right, I work with wealthy individuals, and people look at them and will say to me, how can they even worry they've got all that money. Well, let me tell you they worry. They were just like everybody else. But there's something about when you get to a financial decision point, being willing to take a look at the opportunity, set the risk, and what its impact will be and be unafraid to go in a different direction.

And you see that with Jerry Ford over the course of his life.

And you see that with Jerry Ford over the course of his life.

So, for instance, he's in college and one he plays football, has this phenomenal football game where the scouts are out and he gets recruited by two teams, the Detroit Lions and the Green Bay Packers, and the Ford library has the letters with the offer, and the offer would have been wonderful for somebody coming out of college, and Ford sort of looks at it and he's like, no, I want to be a lawyer. I'm better served going to Yale and coaching football at Yale and trying to figure out how to get.

So, for instance, he's in college and one he plays football, has this phenomenal football game where the scouts are out and he gets recruited by two teams, the Detroit Lions and the Green Bay Packers, and the Ford library has the letters with the offer, and the offer would have been wonderful for somebody coming out of college, and Ford sort of looks at it and he's like, no, I want to be a lawyer. I'm better served going to Yale and coaching football at Yale and trying to figure out how to get.

Into law school there.

Into law school there.

And so you see this again and again, and he ends up revolutionizing the presidency because when he leaves office, he's young, he's in his sixties, and he is like, I'm a capitalist, I'm going to work. And so he decides not just to write a book, because most presidents when they left office up to that point either wrote a book, went back to practicing law, or just dropped dead. And don't laugh, because it happened all the time. I mean, Washington lived about a year and a half and then he died.

And so you see this again and again, and he ends up revolutionizing the presidency because when he leaves office, he's young, he's in his sixties, and he is like, I'm a capitalist, I'm going to work. And so he decides not just to write a book, because most presidents when they left office up to that point either wrote a book, went back to practicing law, or just dropped dead. And don't laugh, because it happened all the time. I mean, Washington lived about a year and a half and then he died.

No more excitement, so why not just go to the grave.

No more excitement, so why not just go to the grave.

It's like, there's nothing better.

It's like, there's nothing better.

And so he ends up deciding to do things like speaking. But he just is very good at what we call the financial pivot, which is key to financial confidence.

And so he ends up deciding to do things like speaking. But he just is very good at what we call the financial pivot, which is key to financial confidence.

Right, you're not going to always.

Right, you're not going to always.

Have everything be puppies and kittens and roses and rainbows in finance, it doesn't happen that way.

Have everything be puppies and kittens and roses and rainbows in finance, it doesn't happen that way.

But what happens is if you.

But what happens is if you.

Catch yourself failing, you've got to be able to master the pivot. And he was excellent at when he made mistakes moving in the other direction. So if you think about him, he's that example of financial confidence, even though I'm sure he still was up at two am. And then you have on the other end of the spectrum Harry Truman, you know, really fascinating guy. He's often seen as our poorest president. That's not true. But he does grow up a farm family in Missouri, you know, and he has a lot of volatility financially over the course of his life. His father invents things and then doesn't patent it the right way. His father at one point goes to the futures exchange and bets all of the family's money and loses it. And poor Harry doesn't get to go to college. He start joins all these businesses and they fail. He goes to strike rich and oil. He can't do it, can't afford it, sells the oil well, and then like a month later, somebody strikes oil on it. He has a zinc mind that fails. The haberdash refails. So he's somebody who can't seem to catch a break. And we have a lot of people like that today, right. You know, if they didn't have bad luck, they'd have no luck at all. Right, And you see him struggle, and you see that eroad financial decision making and what I mean by that is when people are struggling and they deal with this, sometimes they get obsessed with get rich quick schemes, right, and we have those today, right, we have them.

Catch yourself failing, you've got to be able to master the pivot. And he was excellent at when he made mistakes moving in the other direction. So if you think about him, he's that example of financial confidence, even though I'm sure he still was up at two am. And then you have on the other end of the spectrum Harry Truman, you know, really fascinating guy. He's often seen as our poorest president. That's not true. But he does grow up a farm family in Missouri, you know, and he has a lot of volatility financially over the course of his life. His father invents things and then doesn't patent it the right way. His father at one point goes to the futures exchange and bets all of the family's money and loses it. And poor Harry doesn't get to go to college. He start joins all these businesses and they fail. He goes to strike rich and oil. He can't do it, can't afford it, sells the oil well, and then like a month later, somebody strikes oil on it. He has a zinc mind that fails. The haberdash refails. So he's somebody who can't seem to catch a break. And we have a lot of people like that today, right. You know, if they didn't have bad luck, they'd have no luck at all. Right, And you see him struggle, and you see that eroad financial decision making and what I mean by that is when people are struggling and they deal with this, sometimes they get obsessed with get rich quick schemes, right, and we have those today, right, we have them.

They're called the lottery.

They're called the lottery.

And you see people make those types of crazy decisions, like jumping into things like crypto because they think they're.

And you see people make those types of crazy decisions, like jumping into things like crypto because they think they're.

Going to make a lot of money fast.

Going to make a lot of money fast.

And so Truman struggled a long time over his life, very anxious about money and the debts that he had dealt with. And this went on all the way till he became president. And so I would tell you Truman has what we would call today a little bit of bag lady syndrome. And what I mean by that is he actually did end up making money. What happened was he ended up saving a lot of his presidential salary, and in Congress for brief two years, gave the president a tax free stipend that didn't require accounting for entertaining, and Truman saved all of it because the White House was under construction. So he had by the time of his life about seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars about seven or eight million in today's dollars.

And so Truman struggled a long time over his life, very anxious about money and the debts that he had dealt with. And this went on all the way till he became president. And so I would tell you Truman has what we would call today a little bit of bag lady syndrome. And what I mean by that is he actually did end up making money. What happened was he ended up saving a lot of his presidential salary, and in Congress for brief two years, gave the president a tax free stipend that didn't require accounting for entertaining, and Truman saved all of it because the White House was under construction. So he had by the time of his life about seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars about seven or eight million in today's dollars.

And he was always very private about it. People thought, you know, he was poor, that he was.

And he was always very private about it. People thought, you know, he was poor, that he was.

Struggling, and I think part of him just worried that he was going to end up a bit of a bagman or bag lady. And I see this all the time. Even with my clients incredibly wealthy, there is that fear that things are going to get taken from them, that they're going to fall backwards.

Struggling, and I think part of him just worried that he was going to end up a bit of a bagman or bag lady. And I see this all the time. Even with my clients incredibly wealthy, there is that fear that things are going to get taken from them, that they're going to fall backwards.

And it's a really hard thing in money, because.

And it's a really hard thing in money, because.

What you're really trying to do when you're with somebody in my role is make them feel safe. And I've always wondered I wish Truman could have talked to other people about this type of anxiety to feel safe with his money.

What you're really trying to do when you're with somebody in my role is make them feel safe. And I've always wondered I wish Truman could have talked to other people about this type of anxiety to feel safe with his money.

It's a recurring theme in your book. You're talking about this sort of the continuum, but then also the journey that a lot of these presidents go on as they set out to achieve resiliency from a place of fragility, but not all the presidents are able to accomplish that. I'm curious, how did the era just appeared in time in which each of these presidents grew up but then governed in How do you think that impacted their financial situation. I'm thinking of like on one end of the spectrum, you've got maybe the Great Depression. But yeah, talk to us about context a little bit.

It's a recurring theme in your book. You're talking about this sort of the continuum, but then also the journey that a lot of these presidents go on as they set out to achieve resiliency from a place of fragility, but not all the presidents are able to accomplish that. I'm curious, how did the era just appeared in time in which each of these presidents grew up but then governed in How do you think that impacted their financial situation. I'm thinking of like on one end of the spectrum, you've got maybe the Great Depression. But yeah, talk to us about context a little bit.

Yeah. No, I think that's a really great question, right, And no one's asked me that, But it's something I've thought about a lot. And I'll use Ronald Reagan as a great example of this.

Yeah. No, I think that's a really great question, right, And no one's asked me that, But it's something I've thought about a lot. And I'll use Ronald Reagan as a great example of this.

You know, Ronald Reagan.

You know, Ronald Reagan.

Was born in nineteen ten, you know, came of age roughly, you know, to go to college during the depression and so on. And what I would tell you is it's a balance between what's going on externally and what's going on in their early money life. So what I mean by that is, you know, if you think about it, if he had grown up in a home where there was a lot of stable finances, Reagan might not have become so hyper almost obsessive about budgeting. But Reagan's father was an alcoholic, and by all accounts, Reagan, to his credit, always understood alcoholism was a disease. But Reagan's father was a shoe salesman, and his father would get paid and as his father would walk home with the paycheck, he would spend it all on alcohol. So by the time he got to the family's front porch, there was no money left. And his mother, Noll, who was a very church going woman, very good at budgeting and so on. She even went to his employer and said, stop paying him and pay me. But he was but she was a woman, and they were like, we're not going to give him the paycheck for a man to a woman. Right, So of the error, right, the morals of the error. And so you know what you see with Reagan is the reagansh used to leave in the middle of the night to escape their landlord. You know, they would have changed they changed towns, and he changed his father changed jobs.

Was born in nineteen ten, you know, came of age roughly, you know, to go to college during the depression and so on. And what I would tell you is it's a balance between what's going on externally and what's going on in their early money life. So what I mean by that is, you know, if you think about it, if he had grown up in a home where there was a lot of stable finances, Reagan might not have become so hyper almost obsessive about budgeting. But Reagan's father was an alcoholic, and by all accounts, Reagan, to his credit, always understood alcoholism was a disease. But Reagan's father was a shoe salesman, and his father would get paid and as his father would walk home with the paycheck, he would spend it all on alcohol. So by the time he got to the family's front porch, there was no money left. And his mother, Noll, who was a very church going woman, very good at budgeting and so on. She even went to his employer and said, stop paying him and pay me. But he was but she was a woman, and they were like, we're not going to give him the paycheck for a man to a woman. Right, So of the error, right, the morals of the error. And so you know what you see with Reagan is the reagansh used to leave in the middle of the night to escape their landlord. You know, they would have changed they changed towns, and he changed his father changed jobs.

So in his case there was a lot of volatility. But in terms of his personal.

So in his case there was a lot of volatility. But in terms of his personal.

Life, were there things going on like the Great Depression and things like that at the same time, yes, And does that have an impact, Yes, those external moments do, But I would tell you that the personal stuff impacted him more. But what we have to keep in mind, and this is one of the conclusions I came to in the book, is when a lot of these presidents lived, the institutions of the United States were very nimble, they were flexible, they were changeable. Right, So in the time that someone like a Reagan grew up the idea of going to college, and you know, and going to college for maybe a couple hundred dollars a year, and you know, figuring out a way to pay for it while you're in college, and then going and buying a house. All of these things were a lot easier back then than they are today today. And you know, you can come to your conclusions on where they are. So many of our institutions are so fixed that you can't maneuver around it. Right.

Life, were there things going on like the Great Depression and things like that at the same time, yes, And does that have an impact, Yes, those external moments do, But I would tell you that the personal stuff impacted him more. But what we have to keep in mind, and this is one of the conclusions I came to in the book, is when a lot of these presidents lived, the institutions of the United States were very nimble, they were flexible, they were changeable. Right, So in the time that someone like a Reagan grew up the idea of going to college, and you know, and going to college for maybe a couple hundred dollars a year, and you know, figuring out a way to pay for it while you're in college, and then going and buying a house. All of these things were a lot easier back then than they are today today. And you know, you can come to your conclusions on where they are. So many of our institutions are so fixed that you can't maneuver around it. Right.

So, you know, Reagan goes to college and they give him.

So, you know, Reagan goes to college and they give him.

As he shows up to drop his girlfriend off at college, the college admissions dean sees him, looks at him, says, we want you for the football team, and gives him.

As he shows up to drop his girlfriend off at college, the college admissions dean sees him, looks at him, says, we want you for the football team, and gives him.

A scholarship on the spot. That doesn't happen today.

A scholarship on the spot. That doesn't happen today.

Right today, it's a whole game, and you got to take your kid here, and you got to hire these people to help you connect.

Right today, it's a whole game, and you got to take your kid here, and you got to hire these people to help you connect.

Right.

Right.

And so you think about that, You think about buying a house today and how hard it is.

And so you think about that, You think about buying a house today and how hard it is.

I mean, why do we need twenty percent down to buy a house?

I mean, why do we need twenty percent down to buy a house?

And the reason is, back in the forties and fifties, if a bank had to repossess your house, they usually only could get eighty cents on the dollar for it, so they wanted to be able to recoup more.

And the reason is, back in the forties and fifties, if a bank had to repossess your house, they usually only could get eighty cents on the dollar for it, so they wanted to be able to recoup more.

So these are some of the things that are in.

So these are some of the things that are in.

The US society today that weren't there previously that let presidents like Nixon, Eisenhower, Reagan, Ford, you know, really be able to build wealth much easier than it is today. So I know him on my soapbox on that, But that was one of the conclusions I came was that it's.

The US society today that weren't there previously that let presidents like Nixon, Eisenhower, Reagan, Ford, you know, really be able to build wealth much easier than it is today. So I know him on my soapbox on that, But that was one of the conclusions I came was that it's.

Just harder today to achieve the American dream.

Just harder today to achieve the American dream.

Hmmm.

Hmmm.

No, I appreciate that insight, are we There's so many, so many interesting money stories you share from so many of the presidents, Meghan, and we've got to we've got to get some more, including we got to talk about Lincoln growing up in poverty, how that impacts him becoming potentially the greatest president of all time. We'll get to that and more right after this.

No, I appreciate that insight, are we There's so many, so many interesting money stories you share from so many of the presidents, Meghan, and we've got to we've got to get some more, including we got to talk about Lincoln growing up in poverty, how that impacts him becoming potentially the greatest president of all time. We'll get to that and more right after this.

All right, we are back from the break and we're discussing some of these presidential money lessons with guest Meghan Gorman and Megan, we're not going to be able to go through the book like you wrote it, where essentially there's like these financial building blocks and it's sort of like a graduated lesson learning sort of journey that you take folks on, but we do want to kind of like pick and choose. This is like the Ali Carte vision. I guess I got.

All right, we are back from the break and we're discussing some of these presidential money lessons with guest Meghan Gorman and Megan, we're not going to be able to go through the book like you wrote it, where essentially there's like these financial building blocks and it's sort of like a graduated lesson learning sort of journey that you take folks on, but we do want to kind of like pick and choose. This is like the Ali Carte vision. I guess I got.

Yeah, totally, totally, And I should say one thing Joel is I wrote the book because I thought about what my clients did, and people always want to know what wealthy people do.

Yeah, totally, totally, And I should say one thing Joel is I wrote the book because I thought about what my clients did, and people always want to know what wealthy people do.

So it was looking at that sort of saying.

So it was looking at that sort of saying.

These are the skills they had, exactly, But I'm glad you picked up exactly.

These are the skills they had, exactly, But I'm glad you picked up exactly.

Yeah, well, there are some building blocks and basic skills, but then beyond that there are different approaches that you take in order to realize life in a different way, to appreciate it, and then to build wealth ultimately. Yeah, but, like Joel mentioned before the break, you write about Lincoln and he came from so little. He was born in a single room cabin. That's basically the stuff of flore of lessons. But what kind of impact do you think his upbringing hat on his ability to govern? And maybe more importantly for our conversation today, what are some of the themes? What are some of the lessons that you discovered about his personal finances during your research that we might be able to apply to our lives.

Yeah, well, there are some building blocks and basic skills, but then beyond that there are different approaches that you take in order to realize life in a different way, to appreciate it, and then to build wealth ultimately. Yeah, but, like Joel mentioned before the break, you write about Lincoln and he came from so little. He was born in a single room cabin. That's basically the stuff of flore of lessons. But what kind of impact do you think his upbringing hat on his ability to govern? And maybe more importantly for our conversation today, what are some of the themes? What are some of the lessons that you discovered about his personal finances during your research that we might be able to apply to our lives.

One question mass a lot.

One question mass a lot.

Is their personal money impact their fiscal policy. And I would tell you that at the end of the day, fiscal policy is driven by thousands of people.

Is their personal money impact their fiscal policy. And I would tell you that at the end of the day, fiscal policy is driven by thousands of people.

But what's striking about Lincoln's story.

But what's striking about Lincoln's story.

And the genesis of the book actually started was I went to his presidential life library and Springfield. But outside Springfield is the town with the log cabin that he lived in where he was the postmaster and he had a store. And you go there and you look at these log cabins, and then you end up at Springfield and on the corner of the best street in town is his house.

And the genesis of the book actually started was I went to his presidential life library and Springfield. But outside Springfield is the town with the log cabin that he lived in where he was the postmaster and he had a store. And you go there and you look at these log cabins, and then you end up at Springfield and on the corner of the best street in town is his house.

And it's a stunning house. It's a huge.

And it's a stunning house. It's a huge.

House, gorgeous, and you realize he made that jump over ten years, which is incredibly impressive. So here's what I would tell you about Lincoln. Lincoln was an incredibly learning being. He was always studying. He was always learning.

House, gorgeous, and you realize he made that jump over ten years, which is incredibly impressive. So here's what I would tell you about Lincoln. Lincoln was an incredibly learning being. He was always studying. He was always learning.

I read a story.

I read a story.

Once that he would when he was in Congress. He would go over to the library and read all the time. He really was always trying to improve himself. And that was important because Lincoln started out with not a lot of money. Now there's differing accounts over time about how much his family did have growing up. It was up and down and up and down. But he also failed a lot. And so what's really interesting is one of his contemporaries with the last name Pratt, actually wrote the financial history of Lincoln after Lincoln died. And what you learn is that Lincoln, really, you know, takes a lot of odd jobs, gets involved in a lot of businesses, loses money, gets sued. I mean, he is a hot financial mess, but he's constantly learning how to do better. And he makes his way to Springfield where he becomes a lawyer, and he is starting to make consistent money. He's doing well, and he does something that a number of our presidents do that help him build.

Once that he would when he was in Congress. He would go over to the library and read all the time. He really was always trying to improve himself. And that was important because Lincoln started out with not a lot of money. Now there's differing accounts over time about how much his family did have growing up. It was up and down and up and down. But he also failed a lot. And so what's really interesting is one of his contemporaries with the last name Pratt, actually wrote the financial history of Lincoln after Lincoln died. And what you learn is that Lincoln, really, you know, takes a lot of odd jobs, gets involved in a lot of businesses, loses money, gets sued. I mean, he is a hot financial mess, but he's constantly learning how to do better. And he makes his way to Springfield where he becomes a lawyer, and he is starting to make consistent money. He's doing well, and he does something that a number of our presidents do that help him build.

Wealth, and that is he marries up.

Wealth, and that is he marries up.

He marries a woman, a wealthy woman from Lexington, Kentucky, Mary Todd, and they both share a passion for politics.

He marries a woman, a wealthy woman from Lexington, Kentucky, Mary Todd, and they both share a passion for politics.

But they both come from very different backgrounds.

But they both come from very different backgrounds.

And I bring this up because you know, in working with clients, right, you can come from different backgrounds, but you have to have very similar values on money. And so you know, Lincoln and went from somebody who was struggling learning how to have money, learning how to grow wealth to being married to a wealthy woman. He moved her first to a boarding house. She can't tolerate that, so her dad comes to town and helps them buy a house, and Lincoln will take some of the help from him, and some of the help he won't take. But Lincoln over time realizes that Mary is a spender and they have very different values on this. And so while she's off doing stuff, he's constantly saving and constantly trying to create stability. And what's fascinating about him is he does a lot of things right, and then he.

And I bring this up because you know, in working with clients, right, you can come from different backgrounds, but you have to have very similar values on money. And so you know, Lincoln and went from somebody who was struggling learning how to have money, learning how to grow wealth to being married to a wealthy woman. He moved her first to a boarding house. She can't tolerate that, so her dad comes to town and helps them buy a house, and Lincoln will take some of the help from him, and some of the help he won't take. But Lincoln over time realizes that Mary is a spender and they have very different values on this. And so while she's off doing stuff, he's constantly saving and constantly trying to create stability. And what's fascinating about him is he does a lot of things right, and then he.

Will do things that are really odd.

Will do things that are really odd.

So on the day he dies, and just you know, if a president is killed in office, they're paid through the last day that they serve. So Kennedy, Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley, they all were paid through their last day and then the paycheck stops the next day because there's a new president. And now we have pinched within have pencils of the time. But one of the things that I think Lincoln did make a mistake on is despite having all of these visions of his death, he forgets to write an estate plan, or if he did want, no one knew where it was and so his son Robert Lincoln has to ask the Chief Justice of the United States to come immediately to help them manage the estate. Because by the time Lincoln dies in eighteen sixty five, his fifteen thousand dollars estate has now become eighty five thousand, or the equivalent of two million dollars today, And so this is a huge estate. And they have to go out and they have to collect all the assets, get all the bonds, gather everything in Springfield. And because he doesn't have an estate, they have to basically follow the espousal share rules, which is a third goes to Mary Todd Lincoln, his wife, a third to his son Tad, and a third to his son Robert. And so that's how the Lincoln estate gets dispersed. So he's incredibly successful on bing wealth. But he's almost a question mark because we don't know what he would have.

So on the day he dies, and just you know, if a president is killed in office, they're paid through the last day that they serve. So Kennedy, Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley, they all were paid through their last day and then the paycheck stops the next day because there's a new president. And now we have pinched within have pencils of the time. But one of the things that I think Lincoln did make a mistake on is despite having all of these visions of his death, he forgets to write an estate plan, or if he did want, no one knew where it was and so his son Robert Lincoln has to ask the Chief Justice of the United States to come immediately to help them manage the estate. Because by the time Lincoln dies in eighteen sixty five, his fifteen thousand dollars estate has now become eighty five thousand, or the equivalent of two million dollars today, And so this is a huge estate. And they have to go out and they have to collect all the assets, get all the bonds, gather everything in Springfield. And because he doesn't have an estate, they have to basically follow the espousal share rules, which is a third goes to Mary Todd Lincoln, his wife, a third to his son Tad, and a third to his son Robert. And so that's how the Lincoln estate gets dispersed. So he's incredibly successful on bing wealth. But he's almost a question mark because we don't know what he would have.

Done, right, what would he have done?

Done, right, what would he have done?

And I would agree with you, Lincoln is you know, it's always a toss up depending on what's going on in the US today, if it's Lincoln, Washington.

And I would agree with you, Lincoln is you know, it's always a toss up depending on what's going on in the US today, if it's Lincoln, Washington.

Or Fdr As our greatest. But he was amazing, But I would say this to anyone.

Or Fdr As our greatest. But he was amazing, But I would say this to anyone.

He was a self learner, and so I believe financial literacy and resiliency comes from constantly learning, and podcasts like this are a great example.

He was a self learner, and so I believe financial literacy and resiliency comes from constantly learning, and podcasts like this are a great example.

You know, financial literacy.

You know, financial literacy.

Literacy should be taught in schools, but it's not like you should turn eighteen and you stop thinking about it. It should be a constant how are we learning, how are we growing?

Literacy should be taught in schools, but it's not like you should turn eighteen and you stop thinking about it. It should be a constant how are we learning, how are we growing?

And what are other people doing?

And what are other people doing?

Our one one President Megan that could have used some financial literacy or And it's also I think this particular example highlights somebody who was brilliant beyond belief, but not good with money, and so IQ doesn't necessarily translate into solid money habits. Is Thomas Jefferson, I know, and I feel like his how he handled money he kind of reflects a modern trend, right where he had plenty of it, but he couldn't control his spending, even to the point where he had to auction off some of his possessions later in life.

Our one one President Megan that could have used some financial literacy or And it's also I think this particular example highlights somebody who was brilliant beyond belief, but not good with money, and so IQ doesn't necessarily translate into solid money habits. Is Thomas Jefferson, I know, and I feel like his how he handled money he kind of reflects a modern trend, right where he had plenty of it, but he couldn't control his spending, even to the point where he had to auction off some of his possessions later in life.

Right, yeah, he almost auctioned off Monticello.

Right, yeah, he almost auctioned off Monticello.

So I always ask myself this question, like if I could be a great writer, philosopher, thinker like Jefferson and be really bad with money, or be really good with money but not be able to write like that.

So I always ask myself this question, like if I could be a great writer, philosopher, thinker like Jefferson and be really bad with money, or be really good with money but not be able to write like that.

I mean, what would I choose? I mean I totally would have picked the former right, like he picked right in that decision making.

I mean, what would I choose? I mean I totally would have picked the former right, like he picked right in that decision making.

But Jefferson brings up a really interesting phenomenon that we see today, which is Jefferson really was not good at connecting with his future self and planning ahead. Now, part of that had to do with the fact that a lot of his assets were illiquid, right, and so he wasn't able to really get good cash flow. And he was a slaveholder, so that was a problem as well. But you know, in his case, Jefferson loved the good things in life. He loved almost some sort of instant gratification. And it's because of Jefferson that, you know, French wines started to come to the United dates parmesan cheese. We should all thank him every time you have an ice cream cone, because he was the first one who brought ice cream to the US. But he was living such a big lifestyle, especially since he went to France and saw how the French lived, that he wasn't good at budgeting, and he wasn't good at managing what he was trying to achieve financially.

But Jefferson brings up a really interesting phenomenon that we see today, which is Jefferson really was not good at connecting with his future self and planning ahead. Now, part of that had to do with the fact that a lot of his assets were illiquid, right, and so he wasn't able to really get good cash flow. And he was a slaveholder, so that was a problem as well. But you know, in his case, Jefferson loved the good things in life. He loved almost some sort of instant gratification. And it's because of Jefferson that, you know, French wines started to come to the United dates parmesan cheese. We should all thank him every time you have an ice cream cone, because he was the first one who brought ice cream to the US. But he was living such a big lifestyle, especially since he went to France and saw how the French lived, that he wasn't good at budgeting, and he wasn't good at managing what he was trying to achieve financially.

It was almost like he was like I'll figure it out tomorrow, and I will tell you what.

It was almost like he was like I'll figure it out tomorrow, and I will tell you what.

Happens is he ends up accumulating the equipment about two million dollars of debt in today's dollars. And this culminates really with the last letter Thomas and Jefferson writes, is this beautiful treatise on freedom and democracy.

Happens is he ends up accumulating the equipment about two million dollars of debt in today's dollars. And this culminates really with the last letter Thomas and Jefferson writes, is this beautiful treatise on freedom and democracy.

And so on.

And so on.

But the second to last letter is a letter asking if he could buy wine on credit.

But the second to last letter is a letter asking if he could buy wine on credit.

So you know, he just couldn't change who he was.

So you know, he just couldn't change who he was.

And you know, I often think about how do you work with someone like a Thomas Jefferson. I have clients who are a lot like this, and the thing is you're constantly trying to ground them and get them.

And you know, I often think about how do you work with someone like a Thomas Jefferson. I have clients who are a lot like this, and the thing is you're constantly trying to ground them and get them.

To commit to try trying.

To commit to try trying.

To meet some of the goals and trying to really you know, he was never going to be a George Washington in terms of budgeting.

To meet some of the goals and trying to really you know, he was never going to be a George Washington in terms of budgeting.

But how can we create liquidity?

But how can we create liquidity?

How can we create a buffer so that in case something happens, you have some protection from the downside.

How can we create a buffer so that in case something happens, you have some protection from the downside.

And you know, I'm sure.

And you know, I'm sure.

Jefferson would have said something very eloquent to talk me out of that, but you know, I think with him, it's how can we delay gratification and think about what you want in five, ten, twenty.

Jefferson would have said something very eloquent to talk me out of that, but you know, I think with him, it's how can we delay gratification and think about what you want in five, ten, twenty.

Thirty, forty years. So anyone who.

Thirty, forty years. So anyone who.

Works with a financial planner when they ask you, like, how do you envision your retirement?

Works with a financial planner when they ask you, like, how do you envision your retirement?

Where do you see yourself? I think visualization is something we should do a lot more of with.

Where do you see yourself? I think visualization is something we should do a lot more of with.

Our finances today and sort of thinking about who we want to be. How do we want our money to feel as we age, Right when we're in our seventies, what does that look like? Am I going to be up at two am because I can't pay the bills? Or am I going to be up at two am because uh yeah I can afford to. But I decided to take all the kids to Disy world, right, And this is the type of work that I think people could really benefit from. And doing it with your spouse as well, because you have to also visualize together the same dream.

Our finances today and sort of thinking about who we want to be. How do we want our money to feel as we age, Right when we're in our seventies, what does that look like? Am I going to be up at two am because I can't pay the bills? Or am I going to be up at two am because uh yeah I can afford to. But I decided to take all the kids to Disy world, right, And this is the type of work that I think people could really benefit from. And doing it with your spouse as well, because you have to also visualize together the same dream.

Oh yeah, you got to figure out what you each want and what you want together as a team. I love how you're looking through all of the presidents and their different stories through financial planning lens, because that is what you do. But like, so at the opposite end of the spectrum of Jefferson, like, I've got to think you've got a good sense of maybe the most frugal or the thriftiest president that there was. Can you share who you found?

Oh yeah, you got to figure out what you each want and what you want together as a team. I love how you're looking through all of the presidents and their different stories through financial planning lens, because that is what you do. But like, so at the opposite end of the spectrum of Jefferson, like, I've got to think you've got a good sense of maybe the most frugal or the thriftiest president that there was. Can you share who you found?

Yeah? So Calvin Coolidge is an interesting character. He would tell you he was thrifty, and he's a quirky guy.

Yeah? So Calvin Coolidge is an interesting character. He would tell you he was thrifty, and he's a quirky guy.

We all know him as silent cal You know the famous story of the reporter who goes to to him at a cocktail party and says, I bet I can get you to say more than two words, and he looks at him and just says.

We all know him as silent cal You know the famous story of the reporter who goes to to him at a cocktail party and says, I bet I can get you to say more than two words, and he looks at him and just says.

You lose. You know.

You lose. You know.

Coolidge is a funny character, quirky guy, interesting, but incredibly frugal.

Coolidge is a funny character, quirky guy, interesting, but incredibly frugal.

You know. The leading historian on Coolidge.

You know. The leading historian on Coolidge.

Always says, think of him as a missionary. But he had a lot of trauma in his early life, right His mother and his sister die fairly early on, you know, and he's living in this small town and his father has some money, they have some land holdings, and so he decides he's going to be thrifty over the course of his life. He's almost like, I don't want saye he's part of the fire movement, but he's got his own little movement going on, and he finds a woman who's in it with him as well. They live at a boarding house at one point, and at one point the boarding house goes out of business and they go buy all the old sheets that say Norwood Hotel. They think it's charming. They rent the whole time. But what was fascinating with him was he how he dressed. So he was very thrifty, never wanted to spend money, was a total renter, even when in the White House. The woman who was the head of the White House, she was the only one in him. He was the only one in her memoirs that she complained about because of how cheap he was.

Always says, think of him as a missionary. But he had a lot of trauma in his early life, right His mother and his sister die fairly early on, you know, and he's living in this small town and his father has some money, they have some land holdings, and so he decides he's going to be thrifty over the course of his life. He's almost like, I don't want saye he's part of the fire movement, but he's got his own little movement going on, and he finds a woman who's in it with him as well. They live at a boarding house at one point, and at one point the boarding house goes out of business and they go buy all the old sheets that say Norwood Hotel. They think it's charming. They rent the whole time. But what was fascinating with him was he how he dressed. So he was very thrifty, never wanted to spend money, was a total renter, even when in the White House. The woman who was the head of the White House, she was the only one in him. He was the only one in her memoirs that she complained about because of how cheap he was.

But he was dressed to the nines and the reason.

But he was dressed to the nines and the reason.

And if you look at any pictures and go closer up of Coolidge, you'll see his suits are beautifully tailored, as is his wife's clothing. Grace was considered a beauty at the time, and she dressed very well.